Thoughts on Training

[fallenSaint]

Been mulling over some training and trying to fit something of this nature in:

1x Armor
2x Edged
2x TWC
1x CM
2x Ambush
1x PT
2x Dodging
2x Disarm
2x Lockpick
2x Pocketpick
2x Stalk/Hide
1.5x Perception

And toss in 10 ranks of MIU 3 ranks of HP and 4 ranks of MnE at level 37

Fesable for hunting and picking purposes?

[mgoddess]

I'd stick in some Arcane Symbols somewhere in there too, for help with the scarabs (10-20 ranks should be enough). I'd personally drop the pickpocketting to up perception to 2x, and up PT to 1.5x at least. But, that's just me and not liking pickpocketing and thinking of other skills to put those points into.

Other then those little bits, looks pretty good.

[fallenSaint]

Yea as far as scarabs go Ive never had a problem with them with my lack of AS just moreso worried about the locks for on level with only 2x training.

I cant see being a rogue without having pickpocketing that just feels strange, PT Im not sure why I would over 1x it and Perception just tied up more points than I wanted to. What about CM some people say 2x others say 1x whats the story on that stuff these days? Been archery for so long its been nominal to me.

[Edaarin]

Sure you can do it...looks pretty standard cookie cutter though. Personally I think you'd be better off forgetting TWC and sticking the points either in CM or picking.

You can get by with 2x pick/disarm with lore up until about level 60 probably...when you hit the Rift that's when you start really running into problems. There's no guarantee you'll be able to pick all Stronghold boxes either, but that looks like it's a ways away.

AS shouldn't be a huge problem, I did fine singling CM through like level 80 in GS III, and that was with no DS pushdown. I personally think TWC for rogues is kind of a waste of time, since there should be a good chance you kill in one shot if you ambush anyway.

[Gan]

Perception will help you see traps, so I'd think about keeping some to your plan.

AS has never been a factor in scarabs, and I did not train in AS until late with my rogue.

I think the TWC is a waste of time if you're going to ambush. Use TWC and add MOC and just become a blur of blades. Ambush will most likely kill on the first swing anyways, thus negating even needing a second blade. So shift hiding/ambush into PT, CM, and pick/disarm if you're set on being a TWC using rogue.

As far as boxes are concerned... 2x will let you pick what you hunt, but thats about it. You'll find boxes get better and better as you get older... they'll also get harder and harder. Forget picking rift or OTF boxes only being 2x unless you're capped.

[Artha]

AS has never been a factor in scarabs
This is incorrect.

[Edaarin]

I think Ganalon meant it's never been a problem for him.

[Gan]

When GS4 rolled out I had no skill in AS initially and was disarming scarabs, but that was because I was already tripled and was 58 trainings reduced from GS3.


Originally posted by Artha

AS has never been a factor in scarabs
This is incorrect.

If AS is now a factor, why is that so? I always thought success of scarab disarmament was based on WI bonus and ranks in diarming.



[Edited on 7-17-2005 by Ganalon]

[Artha]

It's a factor now because, IC, you can read the runes on a scarabs back better now, and neutralize them without damaging it too much. I don't have any concrete numbers (it's been forever since I've played, and even longer since I've picked), but it makes them loads easier.

[Jolena]

They changed the things that factor into disarming scarabs some time ago and recommend 10-20 ranks of AS. However, that being said, Jolena and my other lockpicking rogue had no AS training and never flubbed a scarab that was in their range of disarming traps. :shrug: Some people swear by it, I personally don't see the need to have it.

[Artha]

I know for a fact that you can go outside your range with enough AS. I seem to remember disarming a scarab easily and then damaging a vaalin pick on a box I couldn't open.

[Gan]

It sounds a novel and realistic idea (AS for scarabs and glyphs) but in the absence of an authoritative nod or some factual calculations then I'll stick to my original statement.

And I'm basing this on 73 levels of experience in picking boxes. :shrug:

[Edited on 7-17-2005 by Ganalon]

[Jolena]

your lockpicking range doesn't matter when you are speaking of disarming Artha. Just because you could disarm a scarab easily but couldn't open the box doesn't mean that AS helps you disarm. Now if your trap limit is say.. -130 and with enough AS you managed to get a -150 or something on a scarab then I would say the AS helped. But there are plenty of times I can disarm a trap but not get the lock. Or vice versa.

[Edaarin]

Oh, Artha's right, Ganalon. I thought you meant that AS had never been a factor for YOU in disarming scarabs.

I guarantee you a level 50 rogue tripled with 30 ranks of arcane symbols can disarm pretty much any scarab out there. Whereas with 0 ranks of arcane symbols I was routinely getting nailed by scarabs (maybe 5% of the time), despite being tripled at like level 75-80. Soulpieced can attest to this.

[Gan]

Hmmmm.

Definately food for thought. I've got 7 ranks and the only time I get bitten by one on the ground is if I forget to disarm it before I pick it up.

I dont have the Fixskills to blow to test it out, so I'll yield but with reservation. I do intend on gaining more AS but thats because its the cheapest magical skill I can trainin to boots my overall magical ratio for spells in OTF.

[Edaarin]

I guess here's a better measure.

Whenever you disarm, do you get the *scritch scritch* method?

[Gan]

yea

[Edaarin]

Intriguing. I guess there's a pretty steep bonus for the first 10 or so rank of Arcane Symbols? Dunno, never went through the mechanics of it myself.

All I remember was that when I didn't have any AS, I would get the message "You feel pretty confident" about half the time on OTF scarabs. Sometimes they blew up.

[Gan]

I'll doublecheck on the next bug I get just to make sure. But yes, that message does seem very familiar.

[fallenSaint]

Well somewhere in the scarab conversation I did get the info I was looking for, seems this path will suit me til later on then Ill tweak it around a bit. Many thanks for input.

[Gan]

Originally posted by Edaarin
I guess here's a better measure.

Whenever you disarm, do you get the *scritch scritch* method?

>disarm scarab
You carefully begin to examine the scarab for traps...

Knowing how delicate magical runes can be, you carefully scrape a few extra lines into the markings, hoping to alter their meaning and defeat the spell they may hold.

*scritch scritch* If that had been any easier, you could have done it blindfolded.


This is with 7 ranks in AS.

[Artha]

Do you do that regularly?

[Gan]

consistantly.


That was on an OTF box as well. How many ranks in AS does it usually take to accomplish that? Or is that consistant with the 7 ranks I have?

[Edited on 7-20-2005 by Ganalon]

[Renian]

Back on topic...

I'd go with 1.5x TWC. Not only will it give you extra TPs, but the first hit against the critter should stun it, making the second hit easier anyway, and still most likely murdering it dead, providing that the first hit didn't anyway.

[Fengus]

Originally posted by Ganalon
And I'm basing this on 73 levels of experience in picking boxes. :shrug:


That makes sense, 73 levels without AS means you don't need it. But doesn't quite say a single thing about whether it helps.


In other news AS helps disarming scarabs on the ground. If you always get scritch messages without any AS you have enough disarm skill or whatever stat bonus is used that it doesn't matter anymore to you.

I've tested this within a single disarm rank level with varying AS and I went from "pretty confident" to "scritch" on same diff scarabs. This isn't conclusive since it could be that I only know better than I've disarmed the scarab. But at low levels I died a lot less after I started picking up AS, this is where the message was always you aren't quite sure (or whatever it is for that unknown one).

[doc ether]

I had a training plan similar to yours that worked pretty good for me. It went something like this:

1x armor use
2x edged weapons
1x thrown weapons
2x two weapon combat
2x combat maneuvers
1x physical training
2.5x dodging
.5x climbing
.5x swimming
2x disarming traps
2x picking locks
2x stalking & hiding
2x perception
2x picking pockets

I would have had 4 MnE spells by 28th level. The thrown weapons and stalking & hiding were roleplaying decisions on my part since I didn't ambush, and those points can easily be distributed elsewhere.

[Gan]

Originally posted by Fengus
That makes sense, 73 levels without AS means you don't need it. But doesn't quite say a single thing about whether it helps.


In other news AS helps disarming scarabs on the ground. If you always get scritch messages without any AS you have enough disarm skill or whatever stat bonus is used that it doesn't matter anymore to you.

I've tested this within a single disarm rank level with varying AS and I went from "pretty confident" to "scritch" on same diff scarabs. This isn't conclusive since it could be that I only know better than I've disarmed the scarab. But at low levels I died a lot less after I started picking up AS, this is where the message was always you aren't quite sure (or whatever it is for that unknown one).

So which is it? Does AS affect the ability to disarm scarabs once they're on the ground or doesnt it? By what you've stated it would appear that AS is only good until the bonus for WI or some unknown stat moves past a certain level. That sounds odd, but then again I'm not the authority. I've just never seen, or heard of a skill that loses its effectiveness once your stat(s) reach a certain point level. I would think it would remain a constant.

[Victorj]

In essence, this is what Arcane does to scarabs:

In this scenario we have a level 50 triple trained picker with 0 ranks in AS and a -320 scarab. He manages to get it off the box, and when he tries to disarm it on the ground, he gets a "you feel very confident about your attempt" message.

Now, we have the exact same scenario, only except now, the picker has 10 ranks AS (still level 50, fully tripled and -320 scarab). When he disarms it off the box, it's still the same difficulty, but when he tries to disarm it on the ground, he gets a "scritch scritch" message.

After a long time, this is what I've gathered about the AS and scarabs.
1) Lore does NOT help when disarming a scarab on the ground.
2) AS will improve your chances of disarming a scarab on the ground, but you don't need it to be effective. (i.e. You'll start getting "scritch scritch" on scarabs that you would get "you feel very confident" on)
3) The harder the scarab is on the box, the harder it is to disarm on the ground. (A level 50 triple trained picker with 0 ranks in AS would normally get "scritch scritch" on a -200 scarab, but the confident message on a -320, etc.)
4) AS will not help reduce the difficulty of disarming the scarab when it is still on the box in any way.

As an added note, it has been proven, that training in AS will make glyphs easier to disarm.

All in all, I can say that if you have no problems disarming a scarab on the ground without any AS, you don't need to pick it up, but if you do, it'll help if you pick up 7-10 ranks or so.

[Gan]

Finding the formula for this would be so rightous.