Helpers Please!

[ieva]

I have a level 40 warrior.. and she sucks... And always has sucked... and I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for training plans... or stats... or any of that fun stuff.

Right now I'm trained in brawling and OHE. I mostly hunt with Voln Fu - and wear haub... I dunno. Any experienced warriors wanna school me a bit?

[ieva]

OH and... I don't know if I can.. but I believe I can convert to Paladin..

[StrayRogue]

Yes you can convert. Post your training/stats and we'll take a look. What exactly are you having problems with? Dying alot?

[Skirmisher]

Two handers are your friend :beer:

[Edaarin]

There are so many viable training paths out there, it's really based on preference. Off the top of my head, I can think of, just on these boards alone, people who have warriors that...

Are tanks that use two handed weapons.

Are modeled after rogues, but with heavier armor and redux.

Are trained in more than three weapon types.

Use two weapon combat and throwing weapons.

[Bobmuhthol]

Any warrior (made before paladins were released) can convert. If you're going to, your plan will be significantly different than a warrior's. I'll post my stuff for the two warriors and paladin that I have, maybe it'll be useful.

>info
Name: Bobmuhthol Garredy Race: Giant Profession: Warrior (shown as: Mercenary)
Gender: Male Age: 103 Expr: 961719 Level: 29
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (40) ... 100 (40)
Constitution (CON): 100 (35) ... 95 (32)
Dexterity (DEX): 79 (9) ... 79 (9)
Agility (AGI): 79 (9) ... 79 (9)
Discipline (DIS): 87 (18) ... 87 (18)
Aura (AUR): 94 (17) ... 94 (17)
Logic (LOG): 54 (-3) ... 54 (-3)
Intuition (INT): 62 (6) ... 62 (6)
Wisdom (WIS): 57 (3) ... 57 (3)
Influence (INF): 44 (2) ... 44 (2)
Mana: 21 Silver: 0
>skill
Bobmuhthol (at level 29), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 170 70
Combat Maneuvers...................| 162 62
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 162 62
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 25 5
Physical Fitness...................| 174 74
Dodging............................| 162 62
Harness Power......................| 25 5
Perception.........................| 117 29
Climbing...........................| 70 15
Swimming...........................| 50 10
First Aid..........................| 117 29
Trading............................| 150 50
Training Points: 8 Phy 112 Mnt
PsiNet has recorded your current skills.
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)

Your 30 day migration period will begin when you choose to degrade a skill.

Further information can be found in SKILL FAQS.
>



Name: yomama Race: Giant Profession: Warrior (shown as: Blademaster)
Gender: Male Age: 39 Expr: 1781254 Level: 40
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (40) ... 105 (42)
Constitution (CON): 100 (35) ... 105 (37)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)
Agility (AGI): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)
Discipline (DIS): 83 (16) ... 83 (16)
Aura (AUR): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)
Logic (LOG): 54 (-3) ... 54 (-3)
Intuition (INT): 62 (6) ... 62 (6)
Wisdom (WIS): 58 (4) ... 58 (4)
Influence (INF): 50 (5) ... 50 (5)
Mana: 7 Silver: 26
>skill
yomama (at level 40), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 190 90
Combat Maneuvers...................| 184 84
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 184 84
Brawling...........................| 184 84
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 25 5
Physical Fitness...................| 184 84
Dodging............................| 184 84
Perception.........................| 142 42
Climbing...........................| 90 20
Swimming...........................| 90 20
First Aid..........................| 142 42
Training Points: 11 Phy 490 Mnt
PsiNet has recorded your current skills.
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)

Your 30 day migration period will begin when you choose to degrade a skill.

Further information can be found in SKILL FAQS.
>



Name: Biggnife Race: Giant Profession: Paladin (shown as: Penitent)
Gender: Male Age: 0 Expr: 581330 Level: 22
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (40) ... 91 (35)
Constitution (CON): 71 (20) ... 61 (15)
Dexterity (DEX): 69 (4) ... 63 (1)
Agility (AGI): 69 (4) ... 63 (1)
Discipline (DIS): 79 (14) ... 72 (11)
Aura (AUR): 85 (12) ... 78 (9)
Logic (LOG): 52 (-4) ... 48 (-6)
Intuition (INT): 56 (3) ... 51 (0)
Wisdom (WIS): 100 (25) ... 91 (20)
Influence (INF): 58 (9) ... 53 (6)
Mana: 83 Silver: 0
>skill
Biggnife (at level 22), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 148 48
Shield Use.........................| 148 48
Combat Maneuvers...................| 102 24
Edged Weapons......................| 148 48
Physical Fitness...................| 148 48
Dodging............................| 78 17
Harness Power......................| 102 24
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 82 18
Climbing...........................| 50 10
Swimming...........................| 30 6

Spell Lists
Paladin............................| 22
Training Points: 1 Phy 10 Mnt
PsiNet has recorded your current skills.
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)

Your 30 day migration period will begin when you choose to degrade a skill.

Further information can be found in SKILL FAQS.
>

[ieva]

I'll post them later today, I can't get in game at the moment. My promise is really my DS... its so fuckin low.. I get smacked up by everything and anything.
I notice that all the other warriors have higher DS than me.. and a higher AS too.... Hell, they are just better all around. I just want to be more efficent. Even with all my Voln crap up.. I get creamed. I'm 40, and I'm still hunting the inner ward at Vaunvar (SP?) because I can't go anywhere else. I quit right before GSIV came out - so i'm really not in touch with all the changes. :-(

[ieva]

Furthermore, what do you think is better? Paladin or Warrior?

[Bobmuhthol]

<<I'm 40, and I'm still hunting the inner ward at Vaunvar (SP?) because I can't go anywhere else.>>

Oh God no. You're uphunting?!?!?! WHAT A SHAME.

Note: I'm 40, and that's the only place I hunt as well.

[Bobmuhthol]

Paladin is better.

Pre-existing warriors are even better if they're good, though. Guild, etc.

[ieva]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<I'm 40, and I'm still hunting the inner ward at Vaunvar (SP?) because I can't go anywhere else.>>

Oh God no. You're uphunting?!?!?! WHAT A SHAME.

Note: I'm 40, and that's the only place I hunt as well.

That's uphunting? Heh, I was told it wasn't... In fact, I had a group of warriors make fun of me at the guild saying I was under-hunting... Like I said, all these changes are messing with me.. including the level throw back that happened when we went from GSIII to GSIV.

And I still get my ass kicked in the innerward... it's really a, "I kill you or you kill me" type of thing. If they get the first hit in, i'm dead... If I get it in, they usually are dead. That's the beauty of Voln Fu.

[Edaarin]

That's not all that bad. My rogue was in Castle Darkstone from like level 48-65 or something ridiculous.

At level 40, you could probably start playing in the Fhorian Village on Teras. Just make sure to make friends with an empath...

[Bobmuhthol]

<<That's uphunting? Heh, I was told it wasn't>>

Skeletal Lord: Level 41

What they're talking about is..

Skeletal Warhorse: Level 37

[Stunseed]

If you're using Voln-Fu, perhaps the outside of Bonespear might be a decent challenge? Dybbuk swing chain I think they're whip-based, and waerns bite hands. They are Voln-Fu fodder from what I've seen.

[Latrinsorm]

First thing: get out of hauberk and into metal breastplate immediately. This will make your DS woes worse (on account of AvD will go up), but the tradeoff is definitely worth it.

Without looking at your training, my first guess is that you need more PF, because even in chain getting killed in one swing is pretty ridiculous.

[FinisWolf]

Maybe this is what you want:

2X PT-Weapon-Shield(if you use one)-brawl-cman-dodge-armor

That base can be built on and manipulated in a ga-million ways... but if you have that already... well ... the words your char just sucks come to mind ... (sorry)

Alll throught my warriors life (until I converted to Pali - and will never go back, even if the offer was made) I always hunted 10 to 20 trains over his head ... 30 to 40 on live critters when I had my casters with me) At 40 trains, I easily hunted TK's, the Black Forest (boar manuevers kinda sucked), faeroth (past Vor'Taz), and naturally Top of the World (only getting minorly feared by seekers)-but you could stay down a bit by the HATCH and do the bears, mammoths and such.

My guess, you are not trained correctly, and your stats MAY be incorrectly set up. Of course, your stats, are your stats.

As everyone else has stated, share your skills with us, and stats, and we could be more productive.

Finis

[Bobmuhthol]

A 40 warrior should be able to take a 400 endroll from a lance to the eye without dying.

[Warriorbird]

Voln Fu is great. Unaugmented one handers are pretty not great.

[Landrion]

Bob's training plan really covers it. Some of the other comments too. Overall...

Brawling is fine, but voln kick and punch is an inconsistent style at best. I use it mostly to stun normally unstunnable critters like windwraiths. Its just too damn slow as a main style.

OHE is not fine, especially against outer ward warhorses in that plate equivalent barding. Drop OHE, its a garbage style without ambush. If you want to experience the thrill of OHE take out a fist scythe and plink away with it - its only slightly more craptastic than the OHE's. If you must - absolutely must - hunt with a shield - go blunts. Morningstars have respectable DFs.

Instead, get into Two handers, poles are also good, but less so for you because youre hunting the oft puncture proof undead. A maul will demolish warhorses and lords.

At 40 trains you should at a minimum be at 80 ranks for metal breastplate. Armor is your friend, it is even worth throwing a few triples in to get to plate faster. These are the upcoming ranks important to you
Metal Breastplate (70,80) Augmented (90,100) Half Plate (110,120) Full Plate(130,140). The first number is the ranks for RT the second is the ranks for the maneuver penalty. Do not get tempted to throw on armor you arent trained for in front of the warhorses - the maneuver penalty will have you eating hooves constantly.

In terms of cmans, if you dont have surge - get it now. Drop other things if you have to. Then pick a good two hander, weapon spec and then weapon bond it. With 2x CM and 2x THW you will have all the AS you should need.

Make sure you get 30 ranks of mstrike as soon as you can afford to do so. Whether you put a double focused strike behind a bastard sword (quick) or maul (slower) its a harsh thing to do to a critter.

As was said, Varunar is a good hunt for you right now - especially as a volner. The Night Mare area is beastly with swarms and casting. If youd like to hunt in EN you can handle MoorWights and Baesrukha assuming you have tricks(feint) mastered. Otherwise they will stay stanced and cast you down. Phantasmas are obnoxious, stick to lords and horses. You can probably be successful with Warrior Shades and Bog Wights but avoid the Bog spectres, they have too much DS and a nasty disentegrate.

If you get a hankering for the living you can work the fhorian village on Teras. You would likely succeeed with Leopards and raptors in the EN. Shan is a nasty area - Id avoid it if you currently consider yourself sucky. If you have feint together you can probably beat vesperti in Solhaven - they have crap for armor.

If you arent really far along with voln consider ditching it. They have systematically nerfed almost every useful thing about that society.

[ElanthianSiren]

Warriors can train hide ambush just fine :)

That said though. I agree with Landrion. Unless you're really into making your life difficult or you really strictly RP your character and are the type of person who is unflexible (me) with your storyline, I'd ditch OHE.

-M

[Landrion]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
Warriors can train hide ambush just fine :)


I probably should be more specific in here. Ambush alone is not enough, it has to be hide/ambush. As ElanthianSiren mentions it is possible for a Warrior to be a well trained (2x) hide/ambusher. But it is something I consider innefficient point wise.

Also, as a 2x hiding ranger I find I have to lean on my enhancive spells to get the job done against the undead. Undead tend to be very perceptive. Sneaking (617) is a rule and Camo (608) gets used quite a bit. Those are things a warrior just wont have to fall back on normally.

[StrayRogue]

A warrior cannot hide/ambush against most critters later on the in game.

[Latrinsorm]

If I were making a warrior, the only weapon styles I would even consider would be polearm or OHE. Nothing else is versatile enough. The morningstar is certainly more powerful than any OHE of comparable speed, but that's pretty much the only thing OHB has going for it. Brawl doesn't have any heavy hitters and THW doesn't have any small weapons (obviously). The advantage to poles is you have your power weapon and you have your grippable weapons.

OHEs are also very easy to aim. You won't even need ambush training to open aim them well at your level if you 2x in CM (which btw you should definitely be doing).

[Bobmuhthol]

That's funny, if I were making a warrior, the only weapon style I would even consider is THW.

[Bobmuhthol]

Also, I can aim a claidhmore at someone's head more often than not.

[Latrinsorm]

Yeah, 60% is definitely worth it for 3 extra seconds.

[Bobmuhthol]

I don't need to aim with a claidhmore, and I swing it in 5 seconds. Since when is it a necessity to aim if you want to be good at fighting?

[Latrinsorm]

Yeah, why would anyone want to put a dagger or an estoc into an eye?

[Bobmuhthol]

...

That certainly has a lot to do with twohanded weapons.

"Twohanded weapons suck cause you can't aim."
"Why would you need to aim with a claidhmore?"
"So you can put a dagger or estoc into an eye."

[Latrinsorm]

To refresh your memory, this is the question you posted: "Since when is it a necessity to aim if you want to be good at fighting?"

To which I responded, reminding you that reliably puncturing an eye is muy bueno.

In reference to your last post, puncturing an eye is much more reliable than whipping around a claidhmore like so many inches of limp dick.

[Landrion]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
If I were making a warrior, the only weapon styles I would even consider would be polearm or OHE. Nothing else is versatile enough. The morningstar is certainly more powerful than any OHE of comparable speed, but that's pretty much the only thing OHB has going for it. Brawl doesn't have any heavy hitters and THW doesn't have any small weapons (obviously). The advantage to poles is you have your power weapon and you have your grippable weapons.

OHEs are also very easy to aim. You won't even need ambush training to open aim them well at your level if you 2x in CM (which btw you should definitely be doing).

Im glad someone thinks so. Honestly THW is sort of overdone in the warrior community - So I like to see more people into Poles and Blunts.

However I am neglecting one thing about OHE that it has going for it. Sheer availablity. They've been so popular for so long that even though their base is shit theyve got lots of interesting good weapons out there. I dont think ease of aiming is a good selling point for OHE. If you want something eminently aimable the brawlers or OHB do the job. Brawl gives you the FU access and OHB gives you the better DFs. I cant name a single thing that OHE does as a style that you cant get better elsewhere - except shop. Without hide/ambush the hits from OHE are simply embarrassing unless the target is in double leathers or below (and in that case spitballs will get the job done anyway).

Polearm is good stuff. No doubt. The only problem is that except for a mid-range weapon (Hammer of Kai) youre stuck with puncture. Puncture has good crits so thats not a huge problem - but the puncture immune critters have put a stigma on them that lingers. Oh Sorry, Im a mammoth arachnid and I can ignore having a lance shoved in my EYE (bullshit). If theres one style you could probably get by as your only weapons - pole is probably it but I dont really reccomend that to a warrior anyway.

Youve got a point that THW doesnt have anything you can use a shield with (like spears). Which is why so many of us are brawl/thw. However much as Bob said, especially down at the flamberge and bastard sword level THW are not that hard to aim. Also, having brawl is pleasant for those cutesy open handed climbs some GMs are fond of. Having an empty handed DS is a handy tool while resting, travelling or hunting.

[Gigantuous]

To hell with THW, OHB, brawl, and polearms.


OHE/TWC is the way to go. :D

[Bobmuhthol]

<<To which I responded, reminding you that reliably puncturing an eye is muy bueno.>>

Assuming the fighter is fucking dumb enough to train OHE in the first place. If you want to use a onehanded weapon, be a paladin.

<<In reference to your last post, puncturing an eye is much more reliable than whipping around a claidhmore like so many inches of limp dick.>>

hahahaha, no it's not.

[Landrion]

Originally posted by Gigantuous
To hell with THW, OHB, brawl, and polearms.
OHE/TWC is the way to go. :D

Well, heres my nice reply. Awesome - Im glad to see more variety in styles out there. Plenty of us two handers around.

Heres my naughty reply. Awesome swing two poor weapons and hope it measures up to a single good one.

[Gigantuous]

2 7x falchions are poor weapons? =(

I don't want to change up my training plan again, dammit!

[Bobmuhthol]

Weapon enchant means so so so little.

- Player of characters that use 0x, 0x, and 2x weapons.

[Gigantuous]

But what if I said they have flares? Does that make me cool?

[Bobmuhthol]

No :(

I don't even own flaring weapons.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
Weapon enchant means so so so little.

- Player of characters that use 0x, 0x, and 2x weapons.

Maybe when you're sub-30. I'd rather take the extra AS and DS of a 10x over something puny like a 2x.

[mgoddess]

Originally posted by Landrion

Originally posted by Gigantuous
To hell with THW, OHB, brawl, and polearms.
OHE/TWC is the way to go. :D

Well, heres my nice reply. Awesome - Im glad to see more variety in styles out there. Plenty of us two handers around.

Heres my naughty reply. Awesome swing two poor weapons and hope it measures up to a single good one.

2x'ing OHE/TWC plus 2x'ing in MoC = kick-fucking-ass build...when using handaxes/falchions (I'd have to agree, for AvD's any OHE except for those two suck).

Note: I use two 4x handaxes (waraxes) and I regularly kill stuff in two attacks or less. I swing the handaxes in 5 seconds, and I can't complain at all about it. With the 2x'ing in MoC, I don't give a damn if it takes just a bit longer then one-swing-beheading to kill stuff (not just because of the FoF, but because I can swing at multiple critters at once....TWC+MoC=major screen scroll in swarms).

Anyways, just my two cents...THW is overpowered, but to each their own way of fighting. Me, I love my OHE/TWC/MoC...

[Bobmuhthol]

<<I'd rather take the extra AS and DS of a 10x over something puny like a 2x.>>

Yeah, so would I.

However, it's nowhere near necessary.

[Gigantuous]

Originally posted by mgoddess

Originally posted by Landrion

Originally posted by Gigantuous
To hell with THW, OHB, brawl, and polearms.
OHE/TWC is the way to go. :D

Well, heres my nice reply. Awesome - Im glad to see more variety in styles out there. Plenty of us two handers around.

Heres my naughty reply. Awesome swing two poor weapons and hope it measures up to a single good one.

2x'ing OHE/TWC plus 2x'ing in MoC = kick-fucking-ass build...when using handaxes/falchions (I'd have to agree, for AvD's any OHE except for those two suck).

Note: I use two 4x handaxes (waraxes) and I regularly kill stuff in two attacks or less. I swing the handaxes in 5 seconds, and I can't complain at all about it. With the 2x'ing in MoC, I don't give a damn if it takes just a bit longer then one-swing-beheading to kill stuff (not just because of the FoF, but because I can swing at multiple critters at once....TWC+MoC=major screen scroll in swarms).

Anyways, just my two cents...THW is overpowered, but to each their own way of fighting. Me, I love my OHE/TWC/MoC...

I agree, TWC+MOC is hot. I recently dropped 30 MOC ranks (putting me back down to 30) in favor of picking up a bunch of dodge and PT. I'll probably 1x MOC my way back up, provided I have the TPs for it.

[Latrinsorm]

Claidhmores give you 3 crit ranks on plate, and their DF isn't so impressive that any hit is debilitating; whereas, knockdown + cpress + dagger to eye = very, very debilitating. Daggers practically aim themselves.

And yes, I generally assume that a fighter trains in OHE when he or she uses a dagger or an estoc.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Claidhmores give you 3 crit ranks on plate>>

False.

<<and their DF isn't so impressive that any hit is debilitating; whereas, knockdown + cpress + dagger to eye = very, very debilitating.>>

Sorry, no. You won't be killing anything in plate with a dagger to the eye. Ever. I take lances to the eye without a problem, and those are on endrolls that will kill a pure no matter where it hits.

<<And yes, I generally assume that a fighter trains in OHE when he or she uses a dagger or an estoc.>>

Fighters that train in OHE aren't very good fighters (in the case of warriors).

Especially ones that use a dagger or estoc. Stop trying to be a rogue.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
I take lances to the eye without a problem, and those are on endrolls that will kill a pure no matter where it hits.It's a good thing creatures have redux, otherwise your comparison would be totally pointless. :)

40/11 = what again?

[Bobmuhthol]

+40 crit weighting adds how much damage to determine crit again?

How many creatures are wearing full plate that it makes someone unable to hunt anything else?

[Latrinsorm]

Claidhs have 80 points of crit weighting, from what I've heard. I don't know how many creatures are in full plate, but I do know that daggers are weakest against plate, and if I proved that daggers are still highly useful against plate, than they must therefore still be useful against any other armor group.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Claidhs have 80 points of crit weighting, from what I've heard.>>

Uh oh, you listen to fucking idiots.

Incredible weighting starts at +25. I assure you, claidhs are not +80. That would mean as long as you get a 105 or so endroll on skin with a claidh, it is an automatic rank 9 crit. +40 weighting.

<<I don't know how many creatures are in full plate, but I do know that daggers are weakest against plate, and if I proved that daggers are still highly useful against plate, than they must therefore still be useful against any other armor group.>>

You didn't prove shit. You said, "If I ambush something in plate with a dagger I will be really cool and it will die!" That's not going to happen. A warrior using a claidhmore will always be more effective against any armor group than a warrior using a dagger.

[Edited on 7-12-2005 by Bobmuhthol]

[Gigantuous]

Personally, I think giant warriors should be able to TWC with 2 claids :smilegrin:

[Warriorbird]

Bob is completely right about claidhs and their weighting. I still don't get where you got that weird three crit rank thing from, Latrin.

With that said, one handed edged can be okay with with TWC and plenty of MOC.

Alternately, it can be okay if you like REAAAAAAALLLLLY SLOOOOOOOW HUNNNNTTTTTING as a warrior. You get solid defense with it and a shield.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
That would mean as long as you get a 105 or so endroll on skin with a claidh, it is an automatic rank 9 crit.I wonder where people got the idea that claidhs were uber instant death machines? As an aside, I'm positive crits are automatically reduced to 9 before randomization.
A warrior using a claidhmore will always be more effective against any armor group than a warrior using a dagger.Swinging openly, sure. The point of using a dagger is to slip it in the vulnerable parts (eyes) as opposed to just wailing away and hoping you eventually hit a vital spot or bleed it out. Me being incorrect about the weighting of claidhs is a point for my side of the argument, as it makes claidhmores even less impressive against the large crit divisors.

I've seen Bob hunt (or maybe it was his other warrior, I don't recall). He never impressed me as all that much faster than my warrior, and he certainly gets wounded way more often.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<I wonder where people got the idea that claidhs were uber instant death machines? As an aside, I'm positive crits are automatically reduced to 9 before randomization.>>

If claidhmores were +80 weighted, they would be an unstoppable item and everyone would use twohanded weapons without batting an eyelash. Crits are reduced to 9 before randomization; they would be exactly 9 before randomization in the example I gave.

<<Swinging openly, sure. The point of using a dagger is to slip it in the vulnerable parts (eyes) as opposed to just wailing away and hoping you eventually hit a vital spot or bleed it out.>>

It takes me 8 seconds to hit someone in the fucking skull with a claidh. That's better than 3 seconds to hide and 4 seconds to ambush with a dagger, because it will kill more often, do more damage, etc.

<<Me being incorrect about the weighting of claidhs is a point for my side of the argument, as it makes claidhmores even less impressive against the large crit divisors.>>

Yeah, and guess what? Daggers are MUCH LESS impressive than claidhs on large crit divisors.

<<I've seen Bob hunt (or maybe it was his other warrior, I don't recall). He never impressed me as all that much faster than my warrior, and he certainly gets wounded way more often.>>

I wasn't exactly trying to not get injured, first off. I was also fighting 3-4 opponents at a time when I was being injured. A warrior using a dagger can not compare to me with a claidh, I'm afraid. You forgot that such a warrior wasn't hunting the same things I was for comparison.

[Bobmuhthol]

Oh I have an idea! Let's give an example!!

300 endroll on full plate.

Dagger:
8 raw damage
Less than 100% chance of puncture - not guaranteed the 4 crit rank death (5 for slash)
Normal swing is 0 crit rank
Ambush.. I don't know ambush mechanics, so let's say it can go up to 3!

Claidh:
45 raw damage
Less than 100% chance of slash - not guaranteed the 5 crit rank death (7 for crush)
Normal swing is 3-5 crit rank

And since it is a warrior skill..

Claidh + mblow:
68 raw damage
Less than 100% chance of slash - not guaranteed the 5 crit rank death (7 for crush)
Normal swing is 4-8 crit rank

[Edited on 7-12-2005 by Bobmuhthol]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
It takes me 8 seconds to hit someone in the fucking skull with a claidh. That's better than 3 seconds to hide and 4 seconds to ambush with a dagger, because it will kill more often, do more damage, etcNobody's hiding (except Melissa, I think). Hiding is for rogues/semis, and 8 seconds is way too long to be hanging around in offensive stance.
I wasn't exactly trying to not get injured, first off.Mmhmm. :smilegrin: All I know is I healed Bobmuhthol about 4 times over a 2 month period, which probably accounted for about 50% of his hunts, and that my warrior rarely gets injured (besides nerves from the vesperti mana drain, which hardly counts).
Yeah, and guess what? Daggers are MUCH LESS impressive than claidhs on large crit divisors.It doesn't take very much to get nasty crits to the eye. I prefer predictability in my offense, rather than hope.

edit:

I'm pretty sure daggers don't have a .040 DF on plate.

[Edited on 7-12-2005 by Latrinsorm]

[Bobmuhthol]

<<It doesn't take very much to get nasty crits to the eye.>>

Have you tried it with dagger vs. full plate, by chance?

<<Nobody's hiding (except Melissa, I think). Hiding is for rogues/semis, and 8 seconds is way too long to be hanging around in offensive stance.>>

I don't leave offensive stance, so time means nothing to me. If you don't hide, your crit rank will not be increased. As such, with a dagger, you would need an endroll in the high hundreds to do what you're trying to.

<<All I know is I healed Bobmuhthol about 4 times over a 2 month period, which probably accounted for about 50% of his hunts, and that my warrior rarely gets injured (besides nerves from the vesperti mana drain, which hardly counts).>>

I don't see how a warrior being injured on a hunt means a damn thing. I lived, and can obviously kill things before they can kill me even injured.

[Latrinsorm]

Every wound is -10 points. Duh.

And so far, the creature I've hunted in full plate was also puncture immune (and I was level 12ish) so no, haven't tried it out yet. Results on skin and chain are promising, though. :)

[Bobmuhthol]

If you can kill something with a dagger on skin more often than I can with a claidh on skin, I will grant you a favor of your choice.

[mgoddess]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
Fighters that train in OHE aren't very good fighters (in the case of warriors).

I sure do hope that you keep that as you're personal opinion and never try to push that on any newbie warrior out there. There's plenty of OHE builds out there that are just as good as any THW/Polearm build...just need to do it right. (Of course, if you want an army of cookie-cutter warriors out there, each and every damn one of them wielding claids...feel free and go right ahead...just don't expect me to ever be one of 'em.)

[Bobmuhthol]

Using a OHE isn't cookie-cutter warrior now?

WTF is the world coming to?

[mgoddess]

Meh...yes, using any type of weapon is cookie-cutter warrior....that's what warriors do.

Now, how one uses the OHE in their training, that's what isn't cookie-cutter. I'd rather see more warriors go for variety then just see claid-users and ohe-shield users.

I guess maybe that second part didn't come out right...I'm bad at putting my thoughts into words...

Maybe just the idea that OHE's in general don't suck (some OHE's do, other's don't...that's how all weapons work). Some OHE builds may suck compared to some OHE builds....just don't count OHE's out of the running, please...

[Warriorbird]

"(and I was level 12ish)"

[Latrinsorm]

Yeah, I'm sure creatures become more forgiving of long RTs as levels get higher, eh Warriorbird?

[Landrion]

Originally posted by Gigantuous
2 7x falchions are poor weapons? =(

I don't want to change up my training plan again, dammit!

Actually, that speaks to the one thing Ive been praising about OHE - good availability. You can sing all day about how good claidhs for example are, but its a hell of a lot easier to get two 7x falchions than two 7x claidhs.

Now if you ask me whether the falchion is a bad weapon. Id probably say yes. It has anemic DFs and is outclassed even in its own style by the waraxe. Im not saying you cant be successful with it, just that there are simpler ways to skin the cat.

If you are being successful and having fun, then dont change your training based on some schmuck's (namely me) idea of what works better. Heaven knows, Jinsem told me that he got a warrior to 20 without training a weapon style at all recently - theres always a way.

[Landrion]

Originally posted by mgoddess
Meh...yes, using any type of weapon is cookie-cutter warrior....that's what warriors do.

Now, how one uses the OHE in their training, that's what isn't cookie-cutter. I'd rather see more warriors go for variety then just see claid-users and ohe-shield users.

I guess maybe that second part didn't come out right...I'm bad at putting my thoughts into words...

Maybe just the idea that OHE's in general don't suck (some OHE's do, other's don't...that's how all weapons work). Some OHE builds may suck compared to some OHE builds....just don't count OHE's out of the running, please...

Very much the same thing I was saying earlier. Im glad some people see advantages to training styles I dont.

However, remember that the topic of the thread is a warrior asking for help who is OHE and Brawl and is not feeling successful with it.

Yes, perhaps you can be successful with heavy MOC, TWC, OHE. But to be honest, thats the power of MOC and TWC - not OHE. Similarly one can claim hide/ambush OHE can be successful (and it can - wildly) but thats the power of hide/ambush. Either of those things can be applied to another weapon base. Thats not discounting OHE or the fact there are successful warriors using it. But its addressing the fact that you can get better bang for the training buck elsewhere.

[Landrion]

I apologize Latrinsorm, Ive sort of lost track of what training plan you're advocating here. Are you suggesting to Ieva that she will be more successful hunting with a dagger and doubling ambush for accurate strikes to the eye? I think you said somewhere along the line "not hiding".

The reason I ask, is that being the case I could take Landrion over to Varunar with his skinning knife and simulate a pretty good 40th level warrior's AS stabbing the critters there in the eye not hiding.

Im sorry if I got lost in the argument and thats not what you were talking about though.

[Warriorbird]

"Yeah, I'm sure creatures become more forgiving of long RTs as levels get higher, eh Warriorbird?"

Actually they become harder to kill with non ambushing daggers unless you have metric tons of MO.

I do fine. If I need to, I can have a 3 second roundtime. If I want to (and it is sometimes called for) I can extend that to 15 seconds.

[mgoddess]

Originally posted by Landrion
Very much the same thing I was saying earlier. Im glad some people see advantages to training styles I dont.

However, remember that the topic of the thread is a warrior asking for help who is OHE and Brawl and is not feeling successful with it.

Yes, perhaps you can be successful with heavy MOC, TWC, OHE. But to be honest, thats the power of MOC and TWC - not OHE. Similarly one can claim hide/ambush OHE can be successful (and it can - wildly) but thats the power of hide/ambush. Either of those things can be applied to another weapon base. Thats not discounting OHE or the fact there are successful warriors using it. But its addressing the fact that you can get better bang for the training buck elsewhere.

Too true...need to have supporting skills with OHE for it to be good, I agree with that. (And also, yes...I will agree that straight THW training has much more bang for the buck compared straight OHE training. heh) :)

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Landrion
I apologize LatrinsormNo worries, I'm usually all over the place. :)

I am not advocating training ambush. I am instead pointing out that daggers can easily be aimed *without* ambush training, and saying that having a pointy, fast, easily aimed weapon is an advantage OHE has over other weapon classes. The question then became whether I was overstating that advantage. I don't believe I am.

As to whether I am advocating using a dagger like this in everyday practice: certainly! It's simply not necessary against every creature (vesperti go down in two hits from even OHEs, for instance) but it can definitely be useful without training anything beyond a normal plan (2x CM) at mid-range levels (e.g. 40).
Originally posted by Warriorbird
I can have a 3 second roundtime.The only way to do this is to have a dagger, a brawling weapon, or some kind of magic (boo! hiss!).

[Warriorbird]

Incorrect. :)

[Janarth]

I wanna know how you have a 3 sec rt outside of daggers, brawlers, katers or magic :p

Also, is there a website with DFs for all weapons across all armour types? I feel the need to make warrior builds..

[Warriorbird]

Quickstrike and/or Weapon Bonding.

[Landrion]

Originally posted by Janarth
I wanna know how you have a 3 sec rt outside of daggers, brawlers, katers or magic :p

Also, is there a website with DFs for all weapons across all armour types? I feel the need to make warrior builds..

The qrs script has them. You can probably locate it by searching the board here.

[Landrion]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Landrion
I apologize LatrinsormNo worries, I'm usually all over the place. :)

I am not advocating training ambush. I am instead pointing out that daggers can easily be aimed *without* ambush training, and saying that having a pointy, fast, easily aimed weapon is an advantage OHE has over other weapon classes. The question then became whether I was overstating that advantage. I don't believe I am.

As to whether I am advocating using a dagger like this in everyday practice: certainly! It's simply not necessary against every creature (vesperti go down in two hits from even OHEs, for instance) but it can definitely be useful without training anything beyond a normal plan (2x CM) at mid-range levels (e.g. 40).

I must admit I find your premise interesting. I might try carrying a sai around (brawl's puncture only toy for others reading along) and giving it a shot or two.

I think it would be a faster way to take down irritant critters like cinder wasps and thraks who have enough blood to take a few strikes from the flamberge without aiming.

Cheers.

[AnticorRifling]

I say go polearms. But I could be biased.

[Warriorbird]

Polearms have their benefits. I like them better than OHE, certainly.