Did British Gov't know about 7/7 in Advance?

[Atlanteax]

This bodes very ill for Blair's political fortunes (and the Labor party to an extent) if this is true...

The speculation is that the British government knew about the risk of attacks, but did not act on it, out of fear of disrupting the G-8 meeting, and hoped it'd be another false alarm.

.

From STRATFOR

.

Israel Warned United Kingdom About Possible Attacks
July 07, 2005 16 25 GMT

Summary

There has been massive confusion over a denial made by the Israelis that the Scotland Yard had warned the Israeli Embassy in London of possible terrorist attacks “minutes before” the first bombing went off July 7. Israel warned London of the attacks a “couple of days ago,” but British authorities failed to respond accordingly to deter the attacks, according to an unconfirmed rumor circulating in intelligence circles. While Israel is keeping quiet for the time-being, British Prime Minister Tony Blair soon will be facing the heat for his failure to take action.

Analysis

The Associated Press reported July 7 that an anonymous source in the Israeli Foreign Ministry said Scotland Yard had warned the Israeli Embassy in London of possible terrorist attacks in the U.K. capital. The information reportedly was passed to the embassy minutes before the first bomb struck at 0851 London time. The Israeli Embassy promptly ordered Israeli Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to remain in his hotel on the morning of July 7. Netanyahu was scheduled to participate in an Israeli Investment Forum Conference at the Grand Eastern Hotel, located next to the Liverpool Street Tube station -- the first target in the series of bombings that hit London on July 7.

Several hours later, Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom officially denied reports that Scotland Yard passed any information to Israel regarding the bombings, and British police denied they had any advanced warning of the attacks. The British authorities similarly denied that any information exchange had occurred.

Contrary to original claims that Israel was warned “minutes before” the first attack, unconfirmed rumors in intelligence circles indicate that the Israeli government actually warned London of the attacks “a couple of days” previous. Israel has apparently given other warnings about possible attacks that turned out to be aborted operations. The British government did not want to disrupt the G-8 summit in Gleneagle, Scotland, or call off visits by foreign dignitaries to London, hoping this would be another false alarm.

The British government sat on this information for days and failed to respond. Though the Israeli government is playing along publicly, it may not stay quiet for long. This is sure to apply pressure on Blair very soon for his failure to deter this major terrorist attack.

[Overlord]

To be fair, how many bomb threats do you think they might have received from protestors and other groups?. I do think however he was a bloody fucktard in ignoring the matter.

[Warriorbird]

You believe this of Britain but you don't of America? Eh. I don't think anyone should be tossing this yet, no matter the case.

[StrayRogue]

I personally don't see why someone would attack the London underground because of the G-8 summit. Its not even in the same country and the two aren't exactly linked by many means. Its still too early really to say anything though.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
You believe this of Britain but you don't of America? Eh. I don't think anyone should be tossing this yet, no matter the case.

Heh, I didn't want to raise this point. "BUT BUSH DIDN@T KNOWZOR".

[HarmNone]

>>Contrary to original claims that Israel was warned “minutes before” the first attack, unconfirmed rumors in intelligence circles indicate that the Israeli government actually warned London of the attacks “a couple of days” previous. <<

Umm, I don't think I'll be basing any opinion on "unconfirmed rumors". Let's wait and see what an investigation turns up before we start pointing fingers, eh?

[Overlord]

Bush has got to be about as arcticulate as the monkey he resembles. When Blair left the summit via the Chinook, Bush was left to give his synopsis of the matter at hand. I could barely stifle my laughter long enough to hear the whole thing.

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
You believe this of Britain but you don't of America? Eh. I don't think anyone should be tossing this yet, no matter the case.

Well, the US intellience was aware of 9/11. That's been pretty much proven in my mind.

The problem in the US was of a horrible lack of communication in getting the information to the appropriate people.

Because of that I do not believe Bush was that aware.

.

Meanwhile, almost 4 years later, all Western Gov'ts have had the time to implement reforms to prevent such issues and to enably more easily acting on information.

On those standards, I can believe that it is possible that the British intelligence was aware of the risk... but made the mistake of underestimating it. Now to be fair, they likely have already detered several attacks, as there has been aborted instances, but the British public isn't going to be mindful of that. They are going to focus on the one time that the jihadists did get through.

Now, it will likely bite them in the arse. Of course, it is easily to conclude that "hey, they should had done more" in hindsight.

Meanwhile, Israeli intelligence has been linked to 9/11 (but has been downplayed as it is now being so here) and for the Isaelis, it is a matter of life or death to their Statehood that they're aware of what Arab/Muslim jihadists are up to.

.

I am not saying that Blair and the British goverment is "guilty" of neglience.

What I am saying is that the British backlash will likely be profound...

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Atlanteax
unconfirmed rumor Boo. Hiss.

[Nieninque]

You havent even let the dust settle.
People are still dying and you start with all this shit.


Low

So very low

[Divinity]

Good lord, it didn't happen all that long ago and their still trying to bring peace and clear out the smoke..

Give them time to at least formulate an idea of what the hell went down.

[Toxicvixen]

Always a conspiracy huh? :rolleyes:

[Drew]

Originally posted by Toxicvixen
Always a conspiracy huh? :rolleyes:


Usually involving jews. Israel has categorically denied these claims btw.

[Gan]

Originally posted by Toxicvixen
Always a conspiracy huh? :rolleyes:


Beat me to it... I'm amazed it wasnt brought up sooner.

[Slider]

And how exactly would any of you go about protecting against such an attack? Think about it...how many people ride, say, the NYC subway a day? Or ride commuter busses? What...put a security station at every fucking bus stop in an entire city to do a search of everyone getting onto a bus? Or how about airport style security at every subway stop in NYC? You would end up having to leave the house 3 hours early to maybe get to work on time, and all the time bitching and moaning about how Bush is becoming a dictator and decrying the loss of your freedoms.

Yet something does happen, and you bitch and moan even louder about how he should have looked into his magical crystal ball and known exactly the moment that some nutjob was going to strap a bomb to his chest and decide to ride the subway.

Feel free to bitch and moan...but untill you can come up with a realistic method of stopping this from happening, don't expect us to pay much attention.

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Slider
And how exactly would any of you go about protecting against such an attack?

kill everyone that might do it or help those who might do it

[Nieninque]

And you are the leader of a security troop?
God help us

[Slider]

Originally posted by theotherjohn

Originally posted by Slider
And how exactly would any of you go about protecting against such an attack?

kill everyone that might do it or help those who might do it


And how do you target them? just kill every Muslim, thus turning this into a real Jihad and making it 1000% worse than the very small number of Muslims that are this fanatical about it?

Hell folks, we get our shorts in a bunch about the cops doing "racial profiling" now, think about the reaction we would get if they started going after anyone who even looks like he might be arabic.

Think about it this way...go look out the window of the office or building or wherever you work at. How many cars are parked outside? Is one of them a bomb? How do you tell?

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Nieninque
And you are the leader of a security troop?
God help us

agreed God help us

because preemptive action that will kill some innocent along with guilty is the only realistic solution

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Slider
[quote]


And how do you target them?


use any means to get information from those we already have. Call it torture if you wish and throw large sums of money to get information about the others.

I find it very distasteful to even think about and I feel sorry for the changes it will do to our sons and daughters who have to do it

Originally posted by theotherjohn

Originally posted by Slider
[quote]


And how do you target them?


use any means to get information from those we already have. Call it torture if you wish and throw large sums of money to get information about the others.
That about sums it up right there.

[Nieninque]

So thank the Lord that you two are mere peons.

Back on topic,

From all accounts, while the powers that be did not know the attack was going to be yesterday, it had been expected that at some point there would be an attack.

Agencies had been practicing and planning their response to any major incident and things went better than could have been expected...some of it fortuitous (a meeting of medical practitioners was taking place at the BMA which is right near where the bus was blown up, meaning a handy helping of skilled help on the spot) but most of it planned and prepared for.

[Hulkein]

Just wondering Nien...

If your government had arrested someone who they have strong evidence linking them to an eminent terrorist attack, you would be against the physical coercion for the information?

I'm not talking lop off limbs, put them in the rack, etc like in BraveHeart. But you'd be against the drugs they use and various methods to get the info?

[Warriorbird]

If my government did... I wouldn't want them to lie about it... and constantly claim they weren't doing it when they clearly were.

[Hulkein]

Would you shut the fuck up with the constant jabs at the US administration?

It's not a discussion about Guantanamo Bay here, it's a question to a British poster who just went through a terrorist attack.

[Warriorbird]

:shakes head: Now you know what the conservative media onslaught feels like.

[CrystalTears]

:banghead:

[Warriorbird]

Precisely. Hopefully she'll drop by sooner or later.

[ieva]

I've heard an interesting conspiracy on this.... I can't find the article but I'll just sum it up:

Select individuals of the United States Government were responsible for the attack on London on 7/7. In hopes of relieving withdrawal pressure from the European Union and raising overall American confidence in the war, the United States Government hired mercenaries to execute the carefully crafted plan of attack and claim responsibility as a secret group of Al-Qaida Jihad in Europe. By attacking London, the United States Government hoped to stir panic in the European Union, demonstrating that Terrorism was in fact, at their door step. Until this attack, the “Guerrilla warfare” had been generally isolated in two key sectors – The United States and the Middle East. Europe remained untouched by the “Global treat” of terrorism.
Furthermore, the technology used further suggests that there is possible U.S involvement. Unlike the traditional Jihad suicide bombings, (Which no evidence suggested that the attacks involved suicide bombers), the four bombs seemed to be rigged to a remote device – A trend not found in the cases of al-Qaida related terrorism.
This would not be the first case of political maneuvering by the United States Government, or any Nation at that. Considering the beliefs circling around this war by the citizens of the United States; Support falling down to 30% or below as polled by CNN and beliefs of mismanagement raising as high as 75%, and the on-going pressure by the European Union for a set withdrawal date from Iraq – This show of Terror on London seems to be quite convenient for the Iraqi- war supporters.

Oh, I just love a good conspiracy! <3

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Slider
think about the reaction we would get if they started going after anyone who even looks like he might be arabic. Ask TheEschaton about that.
Originally posted by ieva
Europe remained untouched by the “Global treat” of terrorism.I can't believe anyone is stupid enough to say this. I'm not saying you're stupid, ieva, but whoever said it.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Hulkein
Just wondering Nien...

If your government had arrested someone who they have strong evidence linking them to an eminent terrorist attack, you would be against the physical coercion for the information?

I'm not talking lop off limbs, put them in the rack, etc like in BraveHeart. But you'd be against the drugs they use and various methods to get the info?

Yeah I would

if they have strong evidence they dont need to torture

[Warriorbird]

might've just been threat misspelled

[ieva]

Originally posted by ieva
Europe remained untouched by the “Global treat” of terrorism.I can't believe anyone is stupid enough to say this. I'm not saying you're stupid, ieva, but whoever said it. [/quote]

Oh, I never claimed it was true. I just love reading all the various conspiracy theories that emerge with every "globe-shaking" event. So, dully understood and no offense is taken or will be taken with the critisim of this article. Merely an interesting tid-bit I found.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
might've just been threat misspelled I meant the part where there was never terrorism in Europe before yesterday.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Hulkein
Just wondering Nien...

If your government had arrested someone who they have strong evidence linking them to an eminent terrorist attack, you would be against the physical coercion for the information?

I'm not talking lop off limbs, put them in the rack, etc like in BraveHeart. But you'd be against the drugs they use and various methods to get the info?

Yeah I would

if they have strong evidence they dont need to torture

Not strong evidence in terms of what is about to go down and where to prevent it.

Strong evidence as in this guys name was heard in chatter, he was found with a phone with incriminating cell phone numbers, and he was about to fly back to Pakistan.

You know, stuff that tells you he's in on an upcoming terrorist attack, but nothing that devulges the plan or any tips as to a way to stop it, unless he opens his mouth.

[Artha]

I think you're running off an incorrect baseline assumption that torture will yield the truth, and not just someone screaming anything they can think of to make the pain stop.

[Hulkein]

Torture today isn't really like that though.

A lot of people are against juicing up these people with the drugs that loosen their lips.

[Apotheosis]

i hate conspiracy theorists (not atlanteax).

THERE'S NO CONSPIRACY, JUST A BUNCH OF PARANOID SCHIZOPHRENICS

[Delirium]

I meant the part where there was never terrorism in Europe before yesterday.

I thought the same thing. Madrid bombings and all.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Delirium

I meant the part where there was never terrorism in Europe before yesterday.

I thought the same thing. Madrid bombings and all.

IRA, ETA (sp?), Baden Meinhoff group, INLA, ALF, all terrorist groups in Europe over recent years

It's kinda amusing how many people were all "BUSH KNEW ABOUT IT BEFORE THE ATTACKS" and now as soon as its another government the same people are all "SHUT UP THEY DIDNT KNOW!!!111"

[Tsa`ah]

There is no possible way to prevent attacks at all even with exact details.

In the US alone it's almost a joke.

Despite our heightened security at airports, illegals are still free to use intracontinental air travel.

Case in point:

Corporate mandated that we consolidate all new hire/temps to one service and that we establish a contract. So that is precisely what we did. We went with who offered the best quality of temp for hire and that was a service called Kelly. Every temp for hire was offered a position with Kelly through us, but Kelly still had to follow their policies. No felonies in the last 7 years, and legal.

We lost 15 that turned out to be illegal, and 3 felons (that I didn't even fucking know about). 3 of the illegals were Cuban, 1 from Argentina, and the rest Mexican. 8 flew into this country AFTER 9-11 from Mexico City ... they returned the same way. These guys can come and go pretty much unmolested, but a 6'1 burley bastard with a light complexion gets dog piled if he moves any faster than a brisk walk.

Now if our INTERNATIONAL terminals are that lax on security, how in the hell do you expect our internal security forces to find a bomb in a garbage can or on a bus?

It's not happening, it can't happen, and it won't happen.

The WTCs were the coup de grace; you won't see anything like that happening anytime soon. What you will see is more of what Israel deals with pretty frequently. Buses, restaurants, schools, and movie theatres. Why go after secure targets ... they're obvious ... and secure.

[Hulkein]

While I agree some things like international travel are still not secure enough, and in all likelihood cannot be tight enough for our liking...

I don't believe that has any correlation to our effectiveness on the ground in our own cities. If someone spilled the details of where a bomb was or something along those lines, successful action could be taken, in my opinion.

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Why go after secure targets ... they're obvious ... and secure.

This deserves to be talked about.

No longer does the enemy see the target in Iraq as easy and desirable but has once again moved beyond the middle east borders.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Hulkein
I don't believe that has any correlation to our effectiveness on the ground in our own cities. If someone spilled the details of where a bomb was or something along those lines, successful action could be taken, in my opinion.

That's just the thing. These cells operate in the same manner that our government operates. Need to know. It's all compartmentalized.

There isn't one person that knows the target, method, and time inside the borders. The person carrying out the attack will receive details from different sources who are not in contact with each other. They don't even know who the other contacts are.

The bomber will get an order of a place from one source, the time from another, and the method from a third. If it's a suicide mission, good damn luck interrogating the bomber to get to the sources.

It's a blind system designed to protect the order givers and their mouthpieces. We can interrogate through torture all we want, but a person can't give you information that they themselves don't know.

So we get some information that some busses are going to blow up. We don't know a date; we can only assume a bomb. Do we know if the bombs are going to be placed or carried on by a suicide bomber?

You can search every bus and every passenger as much as you want, but you can't maintain that diligence without sacrificing diligence elsewhere. Once you become satisfied that the plan was aborted ... buses start blowing up. Why? Because terrorist are opportunist .... why strike a secured target?

This wasn’t, in my opinion, something that was known in advance. This was something that was reported along with thousands of other reports and humans responding in the best way they can.

If terrorist want to take down a train on the L in Chicago, they're going to do it. It's just a matter of time.

Hell, if you really think about it, our entire transit system (any nations) is the most vulnerable system around simply due to the volume of users. It's just not possible to catch everything.

[Hulkein]

Yeah, I agree, I guess.

I was more or less making a hypothetical example for when variations of torture should be used. If it's a skilled attack plan going down you're not going to find anyone with enough information to do anything, you're right.

I wasn't trying to blame the British at all. There's only so much you can do if you hear buses may targeted in the future.