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07-04-2005, 11:45 AM
Kinda cross posted this from the official boards. Wondering if anyone here has anything to say
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When I started posting on these boards several years ago (it seems like yesterday) I really didn't' t know a lot about politics. In fact, up until that point I really didn't care because I had much more pressing matters in my life to take care of, but being in the military I found myself in a situation where global politics would effectively define how the next few years of my life went. So, being the type of person I am I set out to find out as much as I could about this politics business and I eventually found my way here. It was only natural as I spent too much time posting here as it was.
To say that was a “novice” in the field of politics would have been a pretty big understatement as the extent of my knowledge was the few (few being purely relative) books I had read and my beliefs of what constituted right and wrong. I can't really say that things are too different today but I have read a lot more books and improved my ability to articulate my feelings significantly. For the most part I've tried to approach things objectively without aligning myself with any one side out of general principal. In short, I try not to be a lemming like most of the people who have a vested interest in politics. It's been hard and I'm sure I've contradicted myself on several occasions, but hey no ones perfect.
Anyway, moving on to the point I'm writing this post to announce the fact that I think I've finally reached a consensus on what it is I truly want out of the world and the war in Iraq more specifically and I can't really claim that its something that I came up with all by myself because it's not. In fact, it comes from a book that I recently read and before I go further I'd like to really stress the fact that it's taken a lot for me to admit that I don't know everything and defer things to an outside source. Hopefully it's for the best.
The book is The Pentagon's New map by Thomas P.M. Barnett a guy who works at the Naval War College and a security expert of some kind. The thing that really appealed to me about this book was that a lot of what he said coincided so perfectly with my personal beliefs that at points I knew what was gonna come on the next page before I even got there. Before, you start getting scared I'll just say that this guy goes far more in depth and makes a lot more sense than I ever have. Needless to say the book comes highly recommended, and while I don't entertain any notions that everyone will necessarily agree with what is said I hope that people can get something out of it.
The book is about security in the next century and the role the pentagon has to play in securing peace and waging war. It's also fairly old (a couple years) so you'll have to bear with me if you all have already covered all this. You can blame the cute girl who worked in the O'Hare airport who made me think that I just had to buy a book. ;)
Anyway, on to the basis of the book; He goes along with the premise that the United States has the greatest power to influence the world and that the pentagon is the great entity in the government to accomplish anything. I'm sure there is a certain level of bias inherent in this assumption but I'm more than inclined to agree with it. He also begins with the notion that the age of state wars, or wars between two competing states is over, thanks in large part to the cold war and the subsequent fall of the Soviet Union. I'm not so convinced of this myself and I'll return to it in a few sentences. Playing off this he's done a considerable amount of research into the nature of post cold-war conflicts around the world and created something he calls the Pentagon's new map.
The short of it is that he believes that the world is split into two “camps” for lack of a better world, the “core” which principally includes North American, Western Union and several other Eurasian countries among others, and the “Gap” which is everyone else in the Southwest and Southeast Asia, Africa and certain parts of central and southern America. He believes that the major dividing factor between these areas is connectedness or the lack of globalization, meaning the people of the “core” enjoy such things as universal rights, representation in their respective governments, relatively open markets and most importantly the ability for social and economical mobility. In the book he includes a map of the world with a dotted outline around the “gap” and dots to indicate the major US and UN military operations between 1990 and 2003. I don't think I need to say that most of these “dots” fall within the gap.
If this is true, then there are those (mainly conservative) who would say that we should just say screw it and leave these areas to their own devices, as the welfare of some ass backwards degenerates isn't worth our blood and money. These people couldn't be more wrong, and I don't say this just because it says so in the book. All I can think about is the time in my life where I couldn't really be considered an asset to society (to put it nicely) and the mentality that I had to justify the things I did to myself, which could briefly be summed up as “these people don't care about me so fuck em”. At that time I didn't feel like I was apart of the “American society” so when it came time to do things that went against the established rules, they weren't even a consideration. In the words of Dave Chappelle “You got Kids?! Oh yea, well I eat cottage cheese for dinner”.
The simple fact of the matter is that western society as a whole will never be safe as long as we try and justify our median $30,000 a year incomes while people around the world struggle to get by with less than a dollar a day. We can continue just getting it while the gettin's good, but all we're really doing is setting up another 9\11, if not for ourselves than for our kids.
It may sound like that things are starting to jump into the realm of Marx with the whole “economic disparity is the source of conflict” but It's not. The book believes that the answer to this particular problem is “shrinking” the gap or bringing this areas of the world not connected with the rest into the leviathan that is globalization. The reason that he believes that state-centric wars are a thing of the past is because in today's interconnected world there is no good to be gained from a war when both sides are interdependent on one another. Take the instance of China for example: There are many who believe that China will be America's next adversary and that conflict is inevitable between the two as China grows into it's role as a global superpower. However, the question is, why would China instigate a conflict with it's largest trading partner? It's a good question that I had never really considered, but where my thoughts differ is that I think the author may be discounting the irrationality of people with power. That's not to say that anything is certain but that it remains to be seen.
However, I don't think that uncertainty is enough to entirely disregard what he has to say. I'm forced, once again, to think about how I got to be where I am today and how I came to be the person I am from the person I was. When I went into the Army the first thing I noticed was that there were 3 black kids out of 300, which was remarkably different from what I was used to on the south side of Chicago. My mother was white, but that really didn't make much of a difference as I still thought I was screwed, but as I was forced to live with people I never thought I'd even talk to I began to realize that things were far different then I believed. I mean, who knew there were cool people from Montana? The more I came to know these people I absolutely hated, the harder it became for me to justify the enmity that I believed existed between our respective “worlds”. It's true that I had a white mother, which might have made things different for me, but the same thing has held true for all my friends who gone into the military themselves.
So, yea, I can certainly buy into what this guy is saying. The tougher question is how we go about doing this, especially since there are those who would rather see us just mind our business I.e. The Bin Ladens of the world. Throwing money indiscriminately at the problem isn't the answer, as our own welfare program is a testament to and we certainly can't expect transnational organizations to have much of an effect as long as there are those who would abuse the rule they enjoy at the expense of their people.
The short answer is that those of us who do enjoy the most of what the world offers have to come together and make a concentrated effort to do something. That means the UN and western Europe has to stop pussyfooting around the issues and step up to do something more than issue strongly worded resolutions and that the United States has to get off it's high horse and accept the help of others. It's been established that we can beat anyone down with impunity now let's move on. That also means that we as a whole might have to roll up our sleeves and get a little dirty something that few people can stomach and even less can do. This is where I fully anticipate losing people as I talk about why I think this war in Iraq can be a good thing, and other uncool things.
I won't lie, I was for the war in Iraq before it started for many reasons, but the basic one to me was man these dudes are sucking, I wish someone would've helped my ass out so, so yea lets go do something. I certainly haven't agreed with a lot of the things that has happened since we went in, but I definitely don't think it's the first step towards a new nazism. In this case I'll defer to the actual book to sum up why I think the war in Iraq was\is the right thing to do in the context of the last few pages of text:

>What is so amazingly courageous about what the Bush Administration has done in trying to generate a Big Bang throughout the Middle East is that it has committed our nation to shrinking a major portion of the gap in one ell swoop. By doing so I believe this Administration has forced America to finally come through on promises repeatedly offered during the cold war but never delivered. In effect, America has been telling the gap for decades that we would really love to come in there and help straighten things out security-wise, but we always seemed to have bigger fish to fry: the Soviets, the fabled near-pear [The promotion of China has our inevitable adversary], our own self-improvement as the world's sole military superpower... whatever. But by taking down Saddam Hussein and turning Iraq into a magnet for every Jihadist with a one way ticket to paradise, America has really thrown down the gauntlet in the Middle East – It has finally begun exporting security for real. In the past, we always had ulterior motives: to keep the Soviet's, to keep the oil flowing, to keep Israel safe. But reconnecting Iraq to the world is so much bigger than any of those goals. It's about creating a future worth living for a billion Muslims we could just as easily consign to the past... Political commentators who prattle on about how George W. Bush has “staked his entire presidency” on Iraq cannot see the forest for the trees. Bush has staked a whole lot more than his political career on Iraq: He has set a showdown between the forces of connectedness and disconnectedness in our world.. In reality, there are plenty of forces within the Core who favor disconnectedness over connectedness, and we will face as many battles with them in coming years as we will face with the Bin Ladens of the gap. That is because many governments in the core still view the world system as a balance of powers, so any rise in U.S. Influence or presence in the Middle East is seen as a loss of their influence or presence there. Too many of these “great powers” are led by small minds who prefer America's failure's to the Core's expansion, because they see their national interests enhanced by the former and diminished by the latter. They prefer the Gap's continued suffering to their own loss of prestige, and they should be ashamed for their selfishness.
>That is not to say that America's motives in the gap, or more specifically in the Middle East, are selfless, because they are not. In the end, it took .. 9\11 .. and all the pain it inflicted to motivate America to finally do something significant to address the long standing security issues and big “significant” I mean more than keeping rogue regimes in the box.

I've been saying for some time that I think the war in Iraq, means a lot more than weapons of mass destruction, or free oil. In reality, it means either a major step forward in the “Global war on Terrorism” on one hand, and a crushing defeat that if we're lucky our great-grandchildren will be able to recover from, on the other. So, as much as I may dislike the “kill em all” attitude espoused by some on the right I absolutely loathe those who would have us leave because people died or even better because “we're one to talk”. Whether or not you like it, we were in this for the long run before 9\11 or even the first desert storm. We just didn't know it then. So, pointing your finger and saying I told you so doesn't really do a whole lot to help. We as a whole need to seriously approach this issue from where things stand, today.
I'd just like to point out that I'm not in the boat that believes throwing a couple hundred thousand more soldiers into harms way will rectify the matter either. My personal experience is that there are a lot of people in Iraq really making a difference, but then there a lot of people are just there to be there. Hey look ma, I'm in Iraq! No hands!
What we need in addition to boots on the ground is a definite plan to rebuild this country and connect it to the rest of the world (something we don't have right now). The governments of the world have to make a commitment to rebuilding Iraq and establishing an infrastructure and a legitimate government entity and yes that entails providing the security necessary to make that happen. It also means outside economic investment from the public and private sectors, which can' t be limited to oil development if it is to have a lasting effect. Unfortunately, people will make money during all of this, so we might as well prepare ourselves for that 'horrible” outcome.
Of the above, the most important aspect is that of formulating a realistic plan for the future. We need a Marshall Plan for the Middle East. I'm not trying to suggest to that there aren't people who are doing this very thing, but the fact is they need to work faster. In the 1940's people couldn't watch the video of their family members getting blown the hell up 5 hours after it happened. So while, a little patience may be in order, the higher ups need to understand that they don't have the time that their ancestors may have had in the 1940's. I'd say the first order of business is a serious re-evaluation of the Department of Defense and it's commitments worldwide and not just Iraq. Like I said earlier there are a lot of people in Iraq who are just kinda there, that doesn't mean that they aren't doing anything, far from it, but the fact is a lot of the shit is made up as they go along to justify someones silver star. I won't even begin to get into the ridiculousness of having tanks patrol cities when we're trying to settle things down. We may have the best military in the world, but our police force is severely lacking and that is something that needs to be addressed if we are to do any good in Iraq or anywhere else and in all seriousness you won't see people lining up to do anything in Iraq as long as they think it's pointless. That's just one of the many reasons we need to supply that point.
Ultimately, I'm not really concerned about the military's ability to adapt to the coming changes in the world. There are a lot of intelligent, motivated people who's job depend on it, and if history is any indication they'll come through with flying colors. Prior to the Vietnam war there were those who believed that we were incapable of fighting in the jungles as it was trained for the preceding Korean and World Wars. However, that same mis trained military was able to win every single battle, but it wasn't the strength of arms that lost the conflict it was a weakness of heart. We as a people just didn't have the heart to support that war (and for good reason) and I'd be lying if I said I thought the people of today had what it took to change the world for the better, let alone win the war in Iraq.
Ask some people to give a dollar to a homeless guy and they'll act like you want their first born, and god forbid you ask someone to give some time or effort. We as a people are too caught up in what we think we deserve, that we have no choice but to turn a blind eye to those people who would kill to get a fraction of it. We'll easily spend a few hundred if not thousands of billions on entertainment in the form of video games, movies, television and other such superfluous things and yet we're talking about withholding our dues form the United Nations.
The down side to connecting the rest of the world is that we have to share a part of their burden, and for that to happen we all have to seriously sit down and reconsider our operational needs. If it necessary to have this big truck? Or an Xbox and a Playstation? I know what I'm saying sounds like bullshit, but in reality its a small price to pay for our security and continued economic prosperity.

Since, I've talked about this book and how great it is I guess I'll mention the one thing that I had a problem with, and it wasn't really what was said, but rather what wasn't. For all it's worth it doesn't even begin to touch the subject of our own disconnectedness. I mentioned myself a couple times earlier, and the fact is that just as there are people in Africa who would threaten our security because they don't feel apart of this world, there exists people in our own borders who feel the same way. If we as a world are going to open ourselves up then that means that there will be more different kinds of people in what we consider our homes, and chances are they won' t be the well to do. So as the system we have perpetuates the inequalities within we'll never really have peace domestically. The classic example is how the American public for the most part didn't give two shits about the drug epidemic in the black and Hispanic community until the same problem began to confront their own children and the response was to systematically go after those people same black and Hispanic people as if they were the root of the problem and they weren't. So we, in the west ,need to look not only without but within if peace is to prosper. How can we honestly tell people to straighten up when there are till systematically depressed people in our own societies. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating a policy of inaction until we are capable of dealing with our own problems, but we need to move into the information age and start multi-tasking.
I'm alluding to is more of the micro aspect of the book's macro and just like economics I don't think either side can be ignored. As countries continue to make efforts to better themselves they will undoubtedly look for those already there for an example and we if we can't do it what hope do we have for countries like North Korea?

Anyway, the entire purpose of this was to illicit some sort of discussion on the topics covered and so far It's been more of an essay, or even worse a book report. So I guess I'll touch on some things in particular I would really like to talk about so I can get a better idea of what other people are thinking.

1. Do you agree with the premise that the road to world peace is through more connectivity in the modern world, i.e. Through greater economic interdependence etc? If not, why and if you still think its possible by what means do you see it happening?
2. Do you think the United States has the responsibility or even the capability of stepping up to the global plate to secure a better future for us all?
3. Do you think we even should bother with the above?
4. What sort of obstacles do you see presenting themselves as the war in Iraq and the Global War on terrorism progresses? What sort of solutions do you see to these problems?

As an addendum to everything that is said, I'm pretty much going off the assumption that we as Americans aren't totally malicious people hell bent on screwing over the rest of the world. So I'd rather not get into debates on how we're so fucked up that we should just be happy the rest of the world even talks to us. If you've made it this far I thank you for reading. It's just another afternoon for me.



Daniel - Metalfists

http://thecla923.blogspot.com

theotherjohn
07-04-2005, 12:36 PM
to long to read while not at work

Gan
07-04-2005, 12:51 PM
First off...

"...but it wasn't the strength of arms that lost the conflict it was a weakness of heart. We as a people just didn't have the heart to support that war (and for good reason) and I'd be lying if I said I thought the people of today had what it took to change the world for the better, let alone win the war in Iraq."

This is what I've been saying all along about the public support of our Administration's efforts in Iraq.

The book sounds like a good read, I think I'm going to pick up a copy before my next trip out (and when I finish the 2 I'm reading now).

Now on to your discussion ideas.

1. Do you agree with the premise that the road to world peace is through more connectivity in the modern world, i.e. Through greater economic interdependence etc? If not, why and if you still think its possible by what means do you see it happening?

We discussed the same approach in my International Relations class, and I agree that as the world becomes more connected through trade and other avenues, then we become more connected to co-existing with each other. Globalization is a higher plane of thought than an isolationist viewpoint, and countries that are invested in each other will respect each other a great deal more than those who arent invested.

2. Do you think the United States has the responsibility or even the capability of stepping up to the global plate to secure a better future for us all?

I think the US does have a responsibility to step up and set an example of global idealism. Much like the man walking by an alley and seeing someone being attacked - does he stop and help or does he walk on by not wanting to become involved. Someone has to make a stand and spank the ass of the groups that wish to wreak havoc and destruction on the rest of the world for what it represents instead of co-existing peacefully. Its a balsy move for the US to be one to start it, and it will earn alot of criticism, but as others become involved then the idea will catch on that if you want freedom from violence and oppression then you're going to have to support it through action.

3. Do you think we even should bother with the above?

We should if we want to see terrorism and anarchy become extinct. Ignore it and eventually it will come to your doorstep - and it will have much more momentum, resources, and violent capabilities than if it is stopped early on.

4. What sort of obstacles do you see presenting themselves as the war in Iraq and the Global War on terrorism progresses?

Lack of support and comittment from the populace of those countries wanting to make a difference.

What sort of solutions do you see to these problems?

Government administrations maintaining the course and seeing their efforts through to the end. Only the result will convince the doubters that it will make a difference. Also people who do support those efforts having the courage to speak out, often, and support whats going on regardless of how they are treated by those who wish isolationism and pacifism.


Excellent read and good post RangerD. Thanks for sharing.

ElanthianSiren
07-04-2005, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by RangerD1

1. Do you agree with the premise that the road to world peace is through more connectivity in the modern world, i.e. Through greater economic interdependence etc?

2. Do you think the United States has the responsibility or even the capability of stepping up to the global plate to secure a better future for us all?

3. Do you think we even should bother with the above?

4. What sort of obstacles do you see presenting themselves as the war in Iraq and the Global War on terrorism progresses? What sort of solutions do you see to these problems?

First, please space your post. It's a very good post, but reading it is very difficult due to its format.

Point 1:
I agree that greater interdependence is needed among "gap" and "dot" nations to foster peace. The key to this is education; I don't mean strictly schooling, though that's a very important step. Just as a person who excludes certain groups will never benefit from their knowledge, uneducated people do little to influence a technical society. If we want to build technical societies, in effect raise the stanard, and have global-type economies, IMO the first step is education.

When I say education, I mean: the experience of other cultures, the ability for everyone to experience higher learning, and the right to question, dissent, and research uninhibited by governments. Currently, in the U.S. itself, many of these principles do not apply, but they are paramount to building an informed, integrated society.


2. Yes and No. The United States needs to lead evenly by example, IMO. However, I don't honestly feel that this country will bear that type of burden financially. It's a wonderful dream, and I wish they would, but history demands that they won't. Hope I'm wrong.

3. Yes.

4. The US administration made a mockery of itself with the war in Iraq. There are no WMDs, and other countries, even dot countries, don't trust us. Trust is a major obstacle.

That mockery has pulled other countries away from our war on terrorism. It is the "Fool me once, shame on you" "Fool me twice, shame on me". Nobody wants to be a fool.

The United States and Britain both need to admit that they made a mistake. They need to admit that there were no WMDs, and several of those leaders need to issue some apologies -- pronto. They need to ask for the trust of the international community again, in the face of their mistakes. Denying that you made a mistake only fuels the fire and instigates people to stir up more evidence to the contrary.

We need to rebuild Iraq with Iraqi construction firms and businesses, not overseas ones. The wealth has to flow back into Iraq and elevate the standards of living there for all. Trickle down economics does not work, but education does lead first-hand wealth.

More conglamorates need to occur among all nations, where plans for peace can be discussed. A large think-tank, in many instances, is vastly superior to a closed one.

More people in military positions need to learn many more foreign languages. It's unacceptable and dangerous that our intelligence relies on second hand accounts because we do not have American-born interperiters to decipher certain languages. I'm not saying that I think we should exclude any nationality from interperitation; I am saying those interperitations should be checked/combed many many times.

Integrated research needs to be a global phenomena. I'll be using medical research as an example. Technology has improved to a pinacle point, yet the few large research companies still dominate the norm. Due to their constricted experience of "this country" or "this group", they lack the "education" that would be inherent in a diversified community of researchers. Outsourcing is not your friend. Integration is.

-M

edited cuz I put follow instead of lead.

[Edited on Mon, July th, 2005 by ElanthianSiren]

ElanthianSiren
07-04-2005, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Ganalon
I think the US does have a responsibility to step up and set an example of global idealism.

We should if we want to see terrorism and anarchy become extinct.

I don't think you mean anarchy, as anarchy is the most ideal form of government. I think you mean totalitarianism.

-M

Gan
07-04-2005, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by ElanthianSiren

Originally posted by Ganalon
I think the US does have a responsibility to step up and set an example of global idealism.

We should if we want to see terrorism and anarchy become extinct.

I don't think you mean anarchy, as anarchy is the most ideal form of government. I think you mean totalitarianism.

-M

I chose defination 1b from below for my illustration of anarchy.

Main Entry: an·ar·chy
Pronunciation: 'a-n&r-kE, -"när-
Function: noun
Etymology: Medieval Latin anarchia, from Greek, from anarchos having no ruler, from an- + archos ruler -- more at ARCH-
1 a : absence of government b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government
2 a : absence or denial of any authority or established order b : absence of order : DISORDER <not manicured plots but a wild anarchy of nature -- Israel Shenker>
3 : ANARCHISM

Gan
07-04-2005, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by ElanthianSirenThe United States and Britain both need to admit that they made a mistake. They need to admit that there were no WMDs, and several of those leaders need to issue some apologies -- pronto. They need to ask for the trust of the international community again, in the face of their mistakes. Denying that you made a mistake only fuels the fire and instigates people to stir up more evidence to the contrary.

-M


You act as if there will never be any biological or nuclear weponry found. When we have evidence that he's used it in the past. I believe patience will show that there are those types of weapons and that they were either buried or moved out of the country prior to the US entering the theatre. Patience like this only leads to greater public pressure to stop the efforts before they are complete.

ElanthianSiren
07-04-2005, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Ganalon
You act as if there will never be any biological or nuclear weponry found. When we have evidence that he's used it in the past. I believe patience will show that there are those types of weapons and that they were either buried or moved out of the country prior to the US entering the theatre. Patience like this only leads to greater public pressure to stop the efforts before they are complete.

The administration claimed vast stores. You can't move vast stores out of a country without someone seeing it IMO, especially given the sattelite technology we have today.

I don't believe patience will show anything except another Vietnam, and I don't want inactivity or silence in the face of that on my conscience.

-M

07-04-2005, 02:07 PM
A vast store of Anthrax can sit in your living room.

ElanthianSiren
07-04-2005, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Dave
A vast store of Anthrax can sit in your living room.

True enough, but how do you plan to deploy it to the United States from your living room in Iraq?


-M

07-04-2005, 02:12 PM
We need to rebuild Iraq with Iraqi construction firms and businesses, not overseas ones.

Heh. You know the name of a good conjurer? The type of development that needs to take place is hardly existent over here.


When I say education, I mean: the experience of other cultures, the ability for everyone to experience higher learning, and the right to question, dissent, and research uninhibited by governments. Currently, in the U.S. itself, many of these principles do not apply, but they are paramount to building an informed, integrated society

And how exactly do you expect to give these people this education when you couldn't talk the normal civilian into even going there?

Gan
07-04-2005, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by ElanthianSirenI don't believe patience will show anything except another Vietnam, and I don't want inactivity or silence in the face of that on my conscience.

-M

To which I answer...

Originally posted by Ganalon
First off...

"...but it wasn't the strength of arms that lost the conflict it was a weakness of heart. We as a people just didn't have the heart to support that war (and for good reason) and I'd be lying if I said I thought the people of today had what it took to change the world for the better, let alone win the war in Iraq."

This is what I've been saying all along about the public support of our Administration's efforts in Iraq.

ElanthianSiren
07-04-2005, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by RangerD1
Heh. You know the name of a good conjurer? The type of development that needs to take place is hardly existent over here.

The US is pretty famous for giving out loans to other countries. Perhaps a provision could be drafted to allow for larger businesses to expand under the new government and loans for equipment. IMO, the funding of reconstruction by the new government would be a decent investment in the Iraqis themselves.




And how exactly do you expect to give these people this education when you couldn't talk the normal civilian into even going there?

By there, I'm assuming that you mean Iraq. I wasn't simply noting Iraq. I feel that those are principles that should apply to all citizens.

I am not sure how to pursuade citizens to go there. Given the rate of insurgency in Iraq and the fact that that insurgency has taken to targetting humanitarian workers, I don't think mass groups of citizens or civil-workers will want to vocation there for a long, long time without immense incentive. Bottom line, it would take a lot of money, and as I noted in my first post, I don't think the US is willing to take on that kind of loan.

IMO Mass media will be important after the infrastrecture is re-established to allow for electricity. Television could be used, though we'd undoubtedly be accused of propaganda.

-M

ElanthianSiren
07-04-2005, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Ganalon

Originally posted by ElanthianSirenI don't believe patience will show anything except another Vietnam, and I don't want inactivity or silence in the face of that on my conscience.

-M

To which I answer...

Originally posted by Ganalon
First off...

"...but it wasn't the strength of arms that lost the conflict it was a weakness of heart. We as a people just didn't have the heart to support that war (and for good reason) and I'd be lying if I said I thought the people of today had what it took to change the world for the better, let alone win the war in Iraq."

This is what I've been saying all along about the public support of our Administration's efforts in Iraq.


To which I answer -- that's your opinion and welcome in this thread. I do disagree however.

-M

07-04-2005, 02:45 PM
The US is pretty famous for giving out loans to other countries. Perhaps a provision could be drafted to allow for larger businesses to expand under the new government and loans for equipment. IMO, the funding of reconstruction by the new government would be a decent investment in the Iraqis themselves.


And who produces this equipment? Either way you wanna spin it, it will probably come back to a US business.

Oh and who trains these people to use the equipment? My money is on the people who sell them it. Damn, thats more money for the evil us companies.


Bottom line, it would take a lot of money, and as I noted in my first post, I don't think the US is willing to take on that kind of loan.

Come on. Say it. You know you want to...You need security, and who is tops in the security biz again?

Oh my god..it can't be....it never could... THE US. YAY!!!

We knew you could do it.

I can only laugh and thats sad.

Warriorbird
07-04-2005, 03:20 PM
I see nothing wrong with US companies getting the contracts in this situation. It is troubling that there are conflicts of interest with administration officials all over, mind you, but it isn't as if the Iraqis could do it.

ElanthianSiren
07-04-2005, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by RangerD1


The US is pretty famous for giving out loans to other countries. Perhaps a provision could be drafted to allow for larger businesses to expand under the new government and loans for equipment. IMO, the funding of reconstruction by the new government would be a decent investment in the Iraqis themselves.


And who produces this equipment? Either way you wanna spin it, it will probably come back to a US business.

Oh and who trains these people to use the equipment? My money is on the people who sell them it. Damn, thats more money for the evil us companies.


Bottom line, it would take a lot of money, and as I noted in my first post, I don't think the US is willing to take on that kind of loan.

Come on. Say it. You know you want to...You need security, and who is tops in the security biz again?

Oh my god..it can't be....it never could... THE US. YAY!!!

We knew you could do it.

I can only laugh and thats sad.

Yes, it is sad.

However, back on topic, I'm confused as to why you think that I would think that US businesses training Iraqis on how to use equipment would be a bad idea or where I ever said US business was evil. I don't think a population/infrastructure would be self-sustaining without that type of training, with or without military presence. It has to happen eventually, so why not now? Is the better question.

Now, onto the next part. How about you put some more words in my mouth, D? I don't oppose the military cleaning up the mess that this administration's made. After all, who better to take the bullet than the military and intellgience communities? There you go, a quote, from me.

-M

07-04-2005, 05:02 PM
I said what I said because you said "We need to rebuild Iraq with Iraqi construction firms and businesses, not overseas ones. The wealth has to flow back into Iraq and elevate the standards of living there for all. Trickle down economics does not work"


... which leads me to believe that you think things should be done without "outside influence"


I don't oppose the military cleaning up the mess that this administration's made.

So you aren't opposed to the continued presence of US troops in Iraq?



The

ElanthianSiren
07-04-2005, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by RangerD1
I said what I said because you said "We need to rebuild Iraq with Iraqi construction firms and businesses, not overseas ones. The wealth has to flow back into Iraq and elevate the standards of living there for all. Trickle down economics does not work"


... which leads me to believe that you think things should be done without "outside influence"


I don't oppose the military cleaning up the mess that this administration's made.

So you aren't opposed to the continued presence of US troops in Iraq?

So you don't think Iraqis should be trained to rebuild their own country? I would think with doing that would come a sense or pride and togetherness, patriotism for the new government. There are so many possibilities of things that could be reclaimed and rebuilt to symbolize Iraq's freedom.

Never once did I say though that we should hand Iraqi's tools and say, "here figure it out yourself." They will need training IMO, but that training, whether by American hands or otherwise, will need to come -- preferably sooner than later.

I am not opposed to troops continued presence in Iraq. They have a job to do. It's necessary now, and hopefully they will get to come home asap.

What I am opposed to is what I see as blind scurry nationalism that got us there in the first place, an administration that flip flops excuses for war, doesn't keep its word during war, and defers to offer even the simple consolation of an apology to many innocents and families effected by this campaign. You can say, "I am sorry for this loss of life." and not say "I am sorry for the campaign." I don't recall the Bush administration doing either. I feel, as an occupying force, those words are powerful and important.

-M

07-04-2005, 07:58 PM
"So you don't think Iraqis should be trained to rebuild their own country?"

Do you have any idea whatsoever what is going on over there? I mean seriously, your not dumb, start reading things aside from what is on moveon.org.

ElanthianSiren
07-04-2005, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by Dave
"So you don't think Iraqis should be trained to rebuild their own country?"

Do you have any idea whatsoever what is going on over there? I mean seriously, your not dumb, start reading things aside from what is on moveon.org.

I don't belong to moveon.org. What have they said?

-M

Warriorbird
07-04-2005, 08:28 PM
They've said very little related to the war, Dave.

- Moveon member

Gan
07-04-2005, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by Warriorbird
They've said very little related to the war, Dave.

- Moveon member

Unfortunately I disagree. There are articles about the war all throughout the moveon.org website. Not to mention the obvious left slant of the PAC sponsored by Moveon.org... called MoveonPAC.org. Its a noble idea, if you read the 'about' page of the moveon.org website. And they've kept that page very generic an idealogic. But if you dig deeper all you find is another website slanted to one political side or another (this case its a steep left slant), its just better disguised.

For instance... here's one of the major articles featured on the home page...

Uncovered: The Whole Truth about the Iraq War (http://www.truthuncovered.com/)
Lieutenant General William E. Odom, U.S. Army (Ret .) – “This is far graver than Vietnam. There wasn't as much at stake strategically, though in both cases we mindlessly went ahead with the war that was not constructive for US aims. But now we're in a region far more volatile, and we're in much worse shape with our allies." How did we get into this mess? Check out the documentary that MoveOn.org helped launch.

http://www.moveonpac.org/


The best litmus test for bias or lack thereof when reading about news is: if the story tries to tell you how to think or interpret the information its relating then its not worth reading due to bias. If the site allows you to develop your own conclusions then its legitimate enough to be newsworthy.

[Edited on 7-5-2005 by Ganalon]

07-05-2005, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by Warriorbird
They've said very little related to the war, Dave.

- Moveon member

Ganalon pointed it out quite well.

But that is beside the point, it is used as an example of the far left (you dont deny that do you?)

Atlanteax
07-05-2005, 10:31 AM
I'm interested in seeing how the US military handles urban warfare in a "real war".

In the regard that... 1) do they send out a large # of troops to try to flush out every square foot of a city to occupy it? 2) bomb it into rubble, to be rebuilt later

So far in the Iraq campaign, it has been only partially #1. US forces were pretty much kept in isolation in bases or secure areas for the most part (wisely opting out of the urban warfare grind). #2 did not happen. Yes, there was "shock and awe" but no Iraqi cities were leveled to the ground. Some buildings were blown up there and here in precision hits, but that obviously did not enable the US to occupy the cities.

.

I believe that if the Iraq campaign has been a "real war", we would have seen Iraq flattened in a manner similiar to the campaigns against Germany and Japan in WW2.

However, for purely poltical considerations that practical method was not applied in Iraq. In a sense, despite the ability to perform "precision strikes", the US military has been handicapped from the start. Where the blame is not necessary with the Admistration or the Pentagon, but the people who go "oh no, the poor Iraqis!"

Obviously #1 is rather risky in the regard that one can anticipate high casualties. Hence the lack of enthusiam for the US military (via public aversion to casualties) to engage in it. #2 could not be done without risk of significant international backlash (what there has been so far is probably insignificant to what it would be with a carpet-bombing style campaign).

.

Anyhow, should the US get into another "hot war" were quite seriously, the survival of the state is at risk (to the degree that it was in WW1, 2 ... and also the Cold War [at moments] ) ...

Will the US military return to effective carpet-bombing campaign to defeat and occupy a nation?

With weapon technology getting more and more destructive over time, and getting increasingly mobile and individual-base... to the extent that one person can do significant damage if properly armed (nevermind global biological disasters) ... it would seem inevitable that to destroy/kill the dangerous individuals, that civilians nearby will have to be killed as well... to ensure the nullification of that particular destructive threat.

The media has obviously overblown the "brutality" of the Iraq campaign, as most (of the rather unfortunate) casualties were due to minor skirmishes (or planted bombs) where the mortality rate was high because of the existing weapon technology (unlikely such mortality rates could be achieved in pre WW2).

If the US military was not forcibly handicapped and was able to perform in a manner that ensures a most effective resolution to the conflict, we'd have a lot less (and perhaps indeed rare) US casaulties (though probably higher Iraqi casualties).

.

Any comparisons of Iraq to Vietnam only has merits in that the US military is again being restrained/handicapped by political considerations which has the unfortunate result of prolonging the conflict with greater risks to US soldiers (instead of to the enemy).

.

I think in 5-10 years from now, the US intervention in Iraq will be seen in an overall positive light once its (positive) impact in the entire MiddleEast (in regard to American/Western interests) becomes more apparent. The primary detraction in hindsight will of course be the underestimation of guerilla resistance and the lack of US troops for the occupation. (the Pentagon planners were neglient in this regard, where it is generally always better to bring in more troops than necessary, as it is always easier to withdraw manpower not needed than it is to reinforce with needed manpower).

Warriorbird
07-05-2005, 10:45 AM
Certainly a left group, though I would not necessarily call them "far left." The main actions of the group are focused through their emails and events however, not the website. None of those have had to do with the war for months.

07-05-2005, 10:46 AM
Well, here is my theory on the US military tactics and as far as future warfare tactics are concerned when regarding a "hot war"

First and foremost, I believe the US has tactics of heavy bombing and high technical warfare is due to its small size. The American war machine needs to be quick, percise, and lethal or else it will face an overwhelming defeat. The reason for this is its small numbers.

Now, in a long drawn out war, there would obviously be a huge need for increased manpower as we would not be able to role over a country's military as we did in Iraq. Of course, there would be a draft. This is a no-brainer if our borders are concerned.

The warfare, in my opinion, would be very technical, but also very similiar to WWII in a highly fluid front with heavy casualties. The only difference would be would be the amount of technology on the tactical level. Soldiers would be equipped with more advanced devices, but overall, the combat would be the same. Brutal with high casualties.

Frankly, I do not think WMD would be deployed (assuming both countries are nuclear powers) until the borders of the opposing countries were about to collapse. They would be used as a last resort, but by then, I am sure there would already have been millions of casualties. Eitherway, a modern full out war would not be a pretty sight at all.

- Arkans

Gan
07-05-2005, 11:06 AM
Atlanteaux brought up a very interesting issue that the US faced when devising the strategy for Iraq: How to insert forces, minimize resistance, secure bases, and remove Saddam.

We faced significant challenge because the enemy (terrorists, etc) knew how powerful a weapon media and public outcry would be. Thus they hid arms cache's in schools, hospitals, and other public places where if struck - would receive immediate and slanted coverage. They enlisted Al Jazeera to broadcast beheadings and scenes where US bombs struck and civilian casualties were either evident or planted.

The terrorists intended this to be a weapon and a medium in which to broadcast their terror, and alot of us fell for it hook, line, and sinker. They set up the textbook play from how the US public perceived the Vietnam war and executed it flawlessly.

In any engagement you've got to consider whether or not you're going to spare or kill the populace, spare or destroy the surrounding physical infrastructure. Considering the damage done in the carpet bombing campaigns in Germany, England, and France I'd say that the Iraqi people were kept in very good shape. Now if we could keep the terrorists from using that very same public as shields, that would be a major victory...

Warriorbird
07-05-2005, 12:32 PM
Except for the fact that resentment for occupying armies can build really rapidly, whether rational or no, and that Shiites seem to instinctively cleave to other Shiites, at least as a historical perspective... and we're facing a populace with a whole lot of Sunnis who feel completely disenfrancized yet have this tremendous (and yeah, in my opinion misplaced) sense of entitlement to the entire country... and they can get away with acting out against the "evil US invaders" and draw Shiites to their side rather than away from it for once.

Holy run-on sentence! But I think that was pretty clear.