Manuever attack equations

[Janarth]

Call me crazy, but I want to diminish the time factor in these a little and add an 'experience' factor. The more you dealt with that particular manuever, the better you'd be at defending at it.
Currently, a level 80 character can stand in front of a level 40 monster and dodge spikethorn, pounces, stone spits, whatever, all day long with 100k in coins on him, I don't like that. I'm not saying he should get hit, but I'd like to see it downplayed a lot.
For example, say for one moment manuevers were handled like AS vs DS, right now it seems like in that 40th level area its the critters 200 manuever AS versus the 80 level players 500 manuever DS. I want to cut his manuever DS down to like 350, and make 150 manuever DS available if you have a lot of experience dodging that particular attack from that particular critter.
What would this do? Not too much for higher characters, you'd probably still dodge it fine, even if you had no experience with that critter. If you hunted that critter for cash or some other reason, you'd see a lot of them and the experience factor should make your manuever defense the same. For like leveled and younger chars, you'll be better off if you hunt them regularly. In fact, it might be easier for younger chars (by diminishing the age factor) if you hunt them all the time. Thoughts?

[StrayRogue]

There is still a chance you will get hit by a maneuver even at level 100. I still get clipped by a level 30 maneuver at the cap when I'm cash hunting. In fact my rogue dodges better. Its down to skills, stat bonus first. Not age.

[Janarth]

Whatever it is based on now, skills, age, combination of the two, I don't care. Make that 75% of what it is now, and make 25% based on how often you deal with that attack. Thats my idea. I realize some people will not like it, hoping others will see the ramifications for hunting and the rp aspect of it and appreciate it.

[StrayRogue]

Maneuvers are handled exactly the same way as they are in GS3. So it wouldn't be fair to suddenly up the maneuvers to be 25% of a critters attack repotoire considering have the populace don't train the relevent skill to dodge them.

[Syberus]

I get clipped by minotaurs sometimes at cap

[Janarth]

Respectfully, you very much missed the point StrayRogue. If anything, this change would EASE the burden of manuever attacks on regular hunters. This affect is like factoring in free CM. Say some profession has 80 ranks of some skill that helps manuevers. The effect that 80 ranks of skill has, I want to reduce to 75%. To take the place of that effect, I want to use how often you see that attack.

1. anyone who hunts critters a lot, will see an improvement in dodging that manuever attacks.

2. people just strolling through a hunting ground they have never been before will do slightly worse

3. youngings uphunting will see a slight improvement.

4. old people back in their old stomping grounds might see a slight downgrade, atleast for a hunt or three, then back to how it was when they were hunting there like-level and then some.

Make sense? Or do I need to get out the numbers.

If you want the numbers...Say we had a hypothetical manuever attack that was based on some skill set, plus a d100 roll. Say the skill set value for a 80th level char was 200, and you needed a 200 or better to dodge the attack. My change would lower the persons skill set value to 150 if he's never hunted those critters before, he'd get hit half the time, but it would start climbing back up to 200 each time he got hit. Maybe after five hunts, it'd be 200 again.

A like level hunter, who's skill set value was 125, who has a 25% chance to dodge the same manuever, would find himself with say a 100 skill set value, but with the same 50 devoted towards seeing that attack. So if he had been hunting that area for a while, total value would be 150, and he'd have a 50% chance to dodge, better than before. Make sense?

[StrayRogue]

Ah yes. That would be more realistic definately. But alot of code work most likely. First and foremost they need to bring maneuver attacks up to GS4 spec before they even mess with the equation like this. Then of course you'd need to rebalance the equation for certain professions and skills which is even more work. While its a nice idea I'm afraid that all it ever will be: just an idea.

I like the current system better. Maneuvers are in place to give certain professions a challenge in their hunt.

It would obviously be unbalancing if I got 1 "kobold DS" every time a kobold hit me with his weapon...and the same logic applies to your proposal.

Is your main character a pure that is frustrated by maneuvers? I'm not asking that to discount your argument, I'm just curious.

[Latrinsorm]

"Learn by doing" is not a factor in GS combat. I don't believe it ever was. If we were playing MO, this would be a dynamite suggestion. As we aren't, I would strongly recommend against implementing this.

If being maneuvered many times helped us defend against maneuvers, why wouldn't being swung at with a blunt weapon up our Melee DS? Why wouldn't being cast at with Minor Acid up our Bolt DS?

[Janarth]

Its true, I don't play squares, only semis and pures. Why did i want to do this? I just thought it kinda silly that a 40 level warrior who has never seen a forest bendith (insert whatever critter ya want) is gonna dodge the coming manuever than someone who has spent the last coupla months hunting them. If you know my standard tactic is to sweep yer legs, yer gonna be ready.
I can see the argument...you know sweep is coming, 410 him first :p or sweep, trip, 214, whatever you have. It was just an idea. I get it, its al labout striking first, I'll go back to that concept...

To the poster who asked why our melee DS doesn't go up by getting lotsa acid cast it us, because it doesn't help us knowing he's gonna cast acid at us. I mean...I know acid is coming, but does the knowledge really help me all that? However, if when the rooter all of a sudden dissapears and I know he's gonna rumble one or twice, how long it takes him to get underneath me, and when the last rumble feels like before I should jump, that will help dodge rooters.

[mgoddess]

(The following is my personal opinion about CM's...YM&TMV)

When my character trains in Combat Maneuvers, I tend to think of it as her going to a trained specialist (her trainer, in fact) to learn about the various maneuvers people and critters use. Thus, with combat maneuver (doesn't matter which maneuver, it's all general knowledge here) training, she learns how to deflect/avoid/dodge the various maneuvers she might encounter. Thus how she knows if a ro'ater is going to bury/rumble, even if she's never fought one personally. She's been trained by masters (who have the knowledge about this type of maneuver), and she uses the knowledge she gained from them...

Thus, the system of learned a critter's maneuvers over a period of time of hunting them....and then perhaps forgetting those maneuvers if you don't hunt them for a while....just doesn't make sense to me, and how I see the CM system as being.

Then again...as I said in the beginning, this is all just how *I* see the CM system, and my own personal opinion...

[hectomaner]

i can't wait till warden rolls in the change that puts dodge into effect against maneuveres

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Janarth
I mean...I know acid is coming, but does the knowledge really help me all that?Experience is experience. There's no reason for it to help with a headbutt and not with a bolt spell or a cudgel (or vice versa).

[Warriorbird]

Sometimes maneuvers are completely non level based. I think they have different equations.

[StrayRogue]

The only maneuvers that ARE level based (with the exception of Ewaves, boils etc), are CML maneuvers. Most critter maneuvers are still skill based.