Hero's Journey

[theotherjohn]

In the August issue of Compter Games there is an article about HJ

it says HJ may sound dull, but this sleeper from Simutronics is a stunner

[Artha]

I'm still waiting for them to have shadows.

[100% Wool]

Yeah, I just got my computer games magazine today about a page article in the fall preview guide section of the mag. They talk about how it has the most customizable character creation screen as far as MMO goes, to lengths like 12 possible noses alone,etc ; having 12 diff classes so it's going to be hard finding someone who looks exactly like you. And, things that stand out like group combat combos in which it gives an example of warrior 1 fighting a monster, warrior 2 kneeling, and a rogue using warrior 2 as a springboard attacking the monster. They show about 5 screenshots of the game, and they look fucking great.

Anyone going to play this?

[Edited on 7-3-2005 by 100% Wool]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by 100% Wool
Yeah, I just got my computer games magazine today about a page article in the fall preview guide section of the mag. They talk about how it has the most customizable character creation screen as far as MMO goes, to lengths like 12 possible noses alone,etc ; having 12 diff classes so it's going to be hard finding someone who looks exactly like you. And, things that stand out like group combat combos in which it gives an example of warrior 1 fighting a monster, warrior 2 kneeling, and a rogue using warrior 2 as a springboard attacking the monster. They show about 5 screenshots of the game, and they look fucking great.

Anyone going to play this?

[Edited on 7-3-2005 by 100% Wool]

I'll probably buy it to try it out.. but I'll be surprised if it's out within a couple of years. By that time, their 'great ideas' and customization breakthroughs will have already been copied many times over by the bigger boys.

[Artha]

I think you should be ready to be surprised. Unless something crazy happens, I think they're aiming for late 2006.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Artha
I think you should be ready to be surprised. Unless something crazy happens, I think they're aiming for late 2006.

Let's see.

Simu time = Late 2006

Real time = 2008 at the earliest.

Like I said.. I'll be surprised if it's within 2 years.

[Ilvane]

I was pretty against trying the game, but it sounds good in the article. Besides they took a lot of real good GM"s for the project too.

-A

[SnatchWrangler]

Isn't Simu a sponser of that Computer Games magazine? Don't you get a subscription of it from playing GS for some amount of time or just by signing up with premium or something? I know I did for a few years...not sure why it stopped.

Regardless...you really think they would portray Hero's Journey in a bad light with all the subscriptions Simu gives them?

edit: I'm not trying to be a negative nancy...but what I'm trying to say is that the magazine would have absolutely zero reason to portray a game that's not even in beta in a negative light.

[Edited on 7-3-2005 by SnatchWrangler]

[Artha]

I played for a long ass time and never got a subscription :'(

[Edited on 7-3-2005 by Artha]

[Hulkein]

I remember getting a subscription from them for GS a while ago.

I was thinking the same thing, SnatchW.

I'll probably try the game out when/if it gets finished, though.

[Numbers]

I've grown cynical and distrustful of Simutronics, so I don't really believe any of the crap that spews forth from them anymore.

And yeah, I'm not about to believe a gaming rag that has a partnership with Simutronics.

The proof is in the pudding. We'll see when it comes out, and I'll be able to read reviews from more reputable sources.

I think it's kind of obvious that Hero's Journey is barely on the radar of any serious game news publisher, or any gamers for that matter. The Simu PR department is junk (do they even have one?) And I'm not buying their excuse that they're worried about releasing too much information too soon since Sony would steal away all their employess like they did for the original Hero's Journey. I mean, shit. They're using volunteer labor. How long does Simu expect them to stick around with no pay?

[Artha]

The people programming HJ aren't volunteers. They're paid and work in Simu HQ.

[Revalos]

If they can make a GM designed impromptu quest/special merchant/custom alteration/Roleplaying Environment in a graphics MMORPG, SIMU will get my $$$ for it.

If they turn it into any semblance of EQ, AC, DaoC, WoW, etc... Mob camping, PvP, chatroom then forget it.

[Parkbandit]

I wouldn't mind a WoW type game that was not only PvP but it was roleplaying based and enforced.

[CrystalTears]

I wouldn't mind it either if it had PvP AND roleplay based.

I'd get divorced before I even get married if I did get it though. :D

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Revalos
chatroom

funny that is how I see GS

[Soulpieced]

Do you seriously think that there won't be an EQ3 or WOW Revisited by the end of 2006 that's 10 times better than what Simu has been trying to do for years upon end? Come on now.

[StrayRogue]

Agreed. The market is already overflooded with games. It wil be even worse by then.

[ElanthianSiren]

no interest in HJ.

SIMU should have stuck to what they knew. Instead, they allowed their other games to degrade and lose staff. IMO GS is a shell of its past, and I don't think I could, in good conscience pay for something that came by the blood of other games that I enjoyed. I may miss out on the next best thing, but hey, it's the principle.

-M

[Artha]

IMO GS is a shell of its past
This is because people are losing interest in text-based games. Now that graphical MMORPGs have many of the kinks worked out, and most people's computers can run them, the market for something text-based is dieing. HJ's probably Simu's best move yet, because if it's a success, it very well might assure their long term survival. Of course, it's a gamble. If they run it poorly or don't update, it won't end well.

[Fallen]

Well said, Artha. Even if HJ is a mild success, new customers might trickle into GS, allowing its customer base to grow, or atleast stabilize, instead of shrink.

Cross advertising is a beautiful thing.

[Engines on Mute]

Don't know if any of these are new but rpgamer.com just posted a bunch of screens - http://www.rpgamer.com/games/other/pc/herosj/screens/herosjss070705a.html

[ElanthianSiren]

Very pretty pictures, hope for simu's sake they are all so well done or the discrepency will be very noticable. I stand by my previous statement.

-M

[fiendwish]

Zero confidence in Simu that no amount of hype for any of their efforts will ever shake. All games may be run the way Simu runs theirs (a personal little garage hobby that a number of fools pay them to pursue), but the other games haven't flagrantly rubbed my nose in their indiscretions. At least WoW is big enough that any improprieties of a handful of gamemasters don't get in the way of the fun.

[Slider]

Y'know...if they had just decided to take Gemstone, with all the same critters, places, etc. and make it a graphics game I think I would have been willing to give it a try. Hell, they could have even given us the option to convert PC's over to HJ that way, and would have had (perhaps) a good number of us folks interested in it from the start. Maybe even (gasp) enforce the High Maintenance policy and RPing aspect from the very start. Yes, and while I'm dreaming I'd like a redhead about 5' tall.....

As it is, as a totally different game, I don't see it getting much attention. Simu just does not have the kind of budget to compete with the likes of Sony.

[Artha]

They did win multiple Best of Show awards at E3. They're doing something right.

[Numbers]

Yeah, but they won them from relatively unknown online publishers that don't have a very large readership.

The big name mags, which would most likely draw in the largest audience for Simu, such as IGN, GameSpot, PCGamer, have all but ignored this game. The most I've seen in PCGamer about it is a small, 4"x4" blurb that was surrounded by huge write-ups of other big-name games. IGN is devoting some good amount of attention to it, but they're not showcasing it, so those articles go largely unread.

[Apotheosis]

Originally posted by 3704558
Yeah, but they won them from relatively unknown online publishers that don't have a very large readership.

The big name mags, which would most likely draw in the largest audience for Simu, such as IGN, GameSpot, PCGamer, have all but ignored this game. The most I've seen in PCGamer about it is a small, 4"x4" blurb that was surrounded by huge write-ups of other big-name games. IGN is devoting some good amount of attention to it, but they're not showcasing it, so those articles go largely unread.

Perhaps the other gaming magazines are a> waiting to see what happens and b> have more invested in other gaming companies/MMORPG's.

I predict that if HJ does get finished, Simu is going to beat EQ2, and probably steal some share from the other companies.

One thing that they have proven is that they know their customer profiles, and how to target and reach them. Sorry to say it, but I believe the business side of simu knows what they are doing.

The following applies to anyone about to bitch about simu being a poorly run company:
And before you bitch about blah blah blah, mistake mistake mistake, what are you doing in your life? if your'e so smart, why aren't YOU head of corporate strategy at a gaming company? Simu, like any business, doesn't necessarily take what you say to heart because you're probably 1 of 5 people who really care about <insert your opinion here>, if you represented the average user, then you would probably have more say then you realize.. We're talking statistics, and you're the outlier.

[Edited on 7-9-2005 by Yswithe]

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Yswithe
And before you bitch about blah blah blah, mistake mistake mistake, what are you doing in your life? if your'e so smart, why aren't YOU head of corporate strategy at a gaming company?

If you're so smart, why aren't you the president of the United States?

How would you like that response next time you rip the president?

Your logic fucking sucks.

[Apotheosis]

Originally posted by Hulkein
If you're so smart, why aren't you the president of the United States?
How would you like that response next time you rip the president?
Your logic fucking sucks.

I didn't claim to be smart.
When did I rip the president?
My logic is black and white. Either yes or no. I am sick of all the 'shades of gray', so they don't exist anymore.

The point is, I am tired of reading posts that are all blatantly 'simu's stupid' and equally praising 'simu's the greatest thing since sliced bread'. I just want people to look at it from a marketing/statistical viewpoint before they look at what's being done right and wrong with the business.

It really is a mathematical equation in the end.

[Edited on 7-10-2005 by Yswithe]

[Hulkein]

I'm pretty sure you've made remarks about the president or the government in some aspect or another before.

That's really just an example, I'm just pointing out you don't need to be something to criticize it.

Not everyone has the desire to become a business major and run an online gaming company. That doesn't mean they can't say how they feel about it.

While I normally agree with what you're saying - leave it to the experts - I don't think Simu has enough credibility to give them a free pass on the business side of things.

[Apotheosis]

Originally posted by Hulkein
While I normally agree with what you're saying - leave it to the experts - I don't think Simu has enough credibility to give them a free pass on the business side of things.

I flip-flop on how I feel about GWB, eh, In the end, I am like most selfish americans and only want to see a politician in place who will benefit my bottom line.

As far as simu goes, they've been in business for 15 years, hell they even outlasted prodigy, genie and comupserve(was it compuserve?).

Point I make about simu's buisness is that while they might not have known what they've been doing, they've still managed to keep a successful company in place and now I see them as a company that's about to grow like crazy in the next 3 years. I only wish I could invest some money right now, because damn, I would definitely put my money on their strategy.

[Numbers]

Originally posted by Yswithe
The point is, I am tired of reading posts that are all blatantly 'simu's stupid' and equally praising 'simu's the greatest thing since sliced bread'. I just want people to look at it from a marketing/statistical viewpoint before they look at what's being done right and wrong with the business.

It's impossible to look at it from a marketing/statistical viewpoint, as we don't have access to Simu's records.

All we have to go on is our own personal experience with the company, as well as hearsay.

However, the *only* (and I'm stressing this a LOT) reason that Simutronics has survived this long is because of its customers. It has absolutely nothing to do with the way Simutronics conducts business or manages their profiles. Sorry, but Simutronics has absolutely no marketing strategy whatsoever... never have. Their marketing was essentially provided solely by GEnie, Prodigy, AOL, and CompuServe, in the form of links and front/back-page blurbs.

NOTHING else.

Simutronics is not a marketing wizard, able to draw in customers from all corners of the planet. They rode the coattails of what was, at that time, primary access points to the Internet.

Think I'm wrong?

What has happened to the size of the player base since Simutronics became independent from those ISP's? It has gradually shrunk, and is still shrinking to this day. How many *genuinely new* players do you see these days? Not that many. Of those new players, how many of them got there from a friend who currently plays the game? I'd wager quite a lot of them.

Simutronics customers hang around not because they produce great games. It's because, quite frankly, Simutronics is pretty much the ONLY company still in the MUD market. But, more importantly, it's because of the friendships people developed while they were playing the game. Everybody has carved their own little niche in a virtual world where niche's actually matter. If nothing else, Simutronics customers are loyal, but it's not because Simutronics is doing something great and wonderful.

Moving along.

Have you ever heard David Whatley speak? I have, once, last summer during their webcast. He struck me as an imbecile. A complete and total fool who had absolutely no skill whatsoever in the business world or in life. I've met teenagers who seemed to have a greater mental capacity than him. In fact, when I heard him speaking in that webcast, I think that became one the final nails in my coffin of playing Simutronics games. Once I heard the words spew out of Whatley's mouth, I lost pretty much all the faith I had in the company as a whole. What business did this guy have running the place? He was a schmuck that got lucky; he did the right thing at the right time. That's it.

Furthermore...

The MMO market at this point is flooded. There are a LOT of MMO's released every year. Why do you never hear of them? Because they die quick, miserable, and QUIET deaths. They never rise above the radar that is the Sony/Microsoft marketing juggernauts. Every now and then some are able to sneak through, such as Dark Age of Camelot and City of Heroes; but the rest are large failures that generally send the company spiralling very close to bankruptcy.

Would you like a list of almost all the MMO's released? http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/gameId/0

How many of those have you ever heard of?

Referring back to what I mentioned before, Simutronics has never displayed any sort of marketing strategy before. Want proof of this? Here it is:

Hercules & Xena: Alliance of Heroes
Modus Operani
Cyberstrike 1 & 2

GemStone is successful, because it was their first. DragonRealms was successful because it was an offshoot of GemStone. MO has always been a failure. Cyberstrike has always been a failure. H&X has always been a failure, regardless of the almost laughable fact that when they released it, those television shows had a cult folllowing of MILLIONS. Did you ever see any marketing for it whatsoever? Neither did I.

Now, what makes you think Simutronics has the hutzpah to be able to enter one of the most competitive markets in gaming? Do you think people will pay a monthly fee to an unheard of and unproven (to them) company that is equivalent to the fee charged by Sony, Blizzard, and Microsoft? Do you think Simutronic's current customers won't feel alienated that massive amounts of resources have been pulled from their beloved games, threatening its survival, while Simutronics still charges them $40 a month for a TEXT-BASED game, and $14 a month for one of their other games?

Now, anything can happen, I grant you. Hero's Journey may turn out to be the breakout hit of the year. The sad fact is, though, that Simutronics has never ever proven that they will be capable of such an endeavor. MUD's and MMO's are very different beasts, requiring different business plans, different business strategies, different employees, different everything. Just because Simu is "good" in the MUD market (again, refer to the points I made earlier) does not mean they are qualified to enter the MMO market.

[Artha]

However, the *only* (and I'm stressing this a LOT) reason that Simutronics has survived this long is because of its customers. It has absolutely nothing to do with the way Simutronics conducts business or manages their profiles. Sorry, but Simutronics has absolutely no marketing strategy whatsoever... never have. Their marketing was essentially provided solely by GEnie, Prodigy, AOL, and CompuServe, in the form of links and front/back-page blurbs.
No marketing strategy? Have you seen the number of people that can't stop playing this dumb game? It's not even fun, but they keep typing 'kill orc' and have been for 15 years. That's a pretty effective strategy.

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by 3704558
It has absolutely nothing to do with the way Simutronics conducts business or manages their profiles. Sorry, but Simutronics has absolutely no marketing strategy whatsoever... never have.
Simutronics is not a marketing wizard, able to draw in customers from all corners of the planet. They rode the coattails of what was, at that time, primary access points to the Internet.



I disagree with many things Simu has done in the past and now.

But yeah I think you are wrong to think they are completely cluessless about everything concering how to run a gaming business.

and as far as Whatley is concerned. He only has to be smart enough to hire the correct people.

[Numbers]

No marketing strategy? Have you seen the number of people that can't stop playing this dumb game? It's not even fun, but they keep typing 'kill orc' and have been for 15 years. That's a pretty effective strategy.

I addressed that in my post.


But yeah I think you are wrong to think they are completely cluessless about everything concering how to run a gaming business.

Didn't say that they were clueless about running a gaming company. I said they have "no marketing strategy whatsoever." And for Hero's Journey to be able to rise above the behemoths that are EQ, DAoC, CoH, AC, and WoW, they'll need a lot of marketing. They can't just say, "Our game rocks, less tedium more fun, look at our awesome reviews from these three gaming rags that you've never heard of." Which, as far as I've seen, is all they've been doing thus far.

[Numbers]

I should give credit to Whatley for one thing, though. If given the chance, he's an excellent salesman.

http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/621/621907p1.html

While reading this, I actually gained a sliver of interest in the game. But then I realized who it was that was doing the talking.

[StrayRogue]

"In Hero's Journey, your character will have a story arc that is uniquely his or her own. To achieve this effect, we have built a sophisticated mechanism called the Journey System. It is responsible for dynamically creating story elements and plot points as you explore the world of Elanthia. Along the way the system introduces random plot elements drawn from things you do, encounters you've had, people you meet, what others do and major world events. It keeps things moving, keeps them interesting and makes your play experience unique to that character. As an added bonus, this greatly enhances replayability if you want to start over (maybe to try a different profession)."

Now that does sound cool. If they can pull it off like that Xbox game Fable, I'd be interested.

[Edited on 11-7-05 by StrayRogue]

[Apotheosis]

Originally posted by 3704558

Originally posted by Yswithe
I just want people to look at it from a marketing/statistical viewpoint before they look at what's being done right and wrong with the business.

It's impossible to look at it from a marketing/statistical viewpoint, as we don't have access to Simu's records.

technically, the only assumptions/presumptions we can make about their "marketing" (which is a broad definition in and of itself), is observing how their polls match what we see happen in the game.

We can also analyze their promotional strategy based on how they target their messages. Just because they most likely don't have an advertising budget the size of Blizzard doesn't mean they can't get their message out. It's just a matter of strategic approach. When you're small going up against the big boys, you use different tactics specifically suited to the size of your organization.

I mean, targeted marketing/niche marketing is a special thing. Sure, Hero's Journey is an under-dog so to speak, but you can't tell me that they haven't collected a consumer database over the years that tells them what they need to know. It's all in the numbers and psychological profiles of the people who play.

The internet has made consumer profiling that much easier. That information is bought and sold to companies of all sizes, it's just that they each have a unique way of utilizing that.


All we have to go on is our own personal experience with the company, as well as hearsay.

Sorry, but Simutronics has absolutely no marketing strategy whatsoever... never have. Their marketing was essentially provided solely by GEnie, Prodigy, AOL, and CompuServe, in the form of links and front/back-page blurbs.

That's a part of the marketing mix anyway, placement. You just find out where to tell people to go. They got in before everyone else and established a solid foothold.


They rode the coattails of what was, at that time, primary access points to the Internet.

Hey, it worked, right? Follow in the footsteps of something big, what were they supposed to be? An internet ISP?. Be an innovater(sp?) in what you do, Simutronics is a pioneer in on-line gaming, for better or worse.



Think I'm wrong?

To some extent, but it's a difference of opinion.



What has happened to the size of the player base since Simutronics became independent from those ISP's? It has gradually shrunk, and is still shrinking to this day.

Like any product, it has a lifecycle. I would say gemstone is definitely in the decline, but they have definitely managed to allow it to gently die and probably keep it profitable


How many *genuinely new* players do you see these days? Not that many. Of those new players, how many of them got there from a friend who currently plays the game?

Referal systems are a great promotional strategy for small business. Direct marketing is always effective because it's based on the fact that one person had a positive experience with a product and is going to tell their other friends who might share in the same experience.



Simutronics customers hang around not because they produce great games. It's because, quite frankly, Simutronics is pretty much the ONLY company still in the MUD market. But, more importantly, it's because of the friendships people developed while they were playing the game. Everybody has carved their own little niche in a virtual world where niche's actually matter. If nothing else, Simutronics customers are loyal, but it's not because Simutronics is doing something great and wonderful.

This is a pretty broad analysis, but I won't disagree with it for the most part. I mean, it's not really a game that simu is really selling. It's a social experience.


He did the right thing at the right time. That's it.
(regarding Whatley)

There's always someone smarter then you and stupider then you. The sooner people accept that, the sooner they realize that hiring smart people isn't a bad idea. Sounds like he took a risk and it paid off. That takes balls that most people in real life don't have.





The MMO market at this point is flooded. There are a LOT of MMO's released every year. Why do you never hear of them? Because they die quick, miserable, and QUIET deaths. They never rise above the radar that is the Sony/Microsoft marketing juggernauts. Every now and then some are able to sneak through, such as Dark Age of Camelot and City of Heroes; but the rest are large failures that generally send the company spiralling very close to bankruptcy.

I would say that the games that fail are the games that fail to grasp what it is that people actually want. If you can study consumers, and get a reasonable idea as to what they want, and offer it to them, they'll bite. Simu being a smaller company is just goign to have to try alot of approaches at getting new users, but believe me, if this game turns out to be great, people will buy it.[/quote]


Referring back to what I mentioned before, Simutronics has never displayed any sort of marketing strategy before. Want proof of this? Here it is:

Hercules & Xena: Alliance of Heroes
Modus Operani
Cyberstrike 1 & 2

Did you ever see any marketing for it whatsoever? Neither did I.

I stopped gaming a few months after simu went to the web. Besides, what were the overall goals with those games? And finally, I would say that even in failure one can find success.


Now, what makes you think Simutronics has the hutzpah to be able to enter one of the most competitive markets in gaming?

I think they can calculate real well what they are doing. Having had what, 15 years to study gamers, what draws them in, what keeps them, don't you think that some of that experience affords them a position to produce and execute a polished game?[/quote]

I am glad they decided to pull HJ in it's previous form. Honestly, with the advances in technology, they're going to be able to accomplish something that is unique and engaging to the consumer.


Do you think people will pay a monthly fee to an unheard of and unproven (to them) company that is equivalent to the fee charged by Sony, Blizzard, and Microsoft?

I am pretty sure theyr'e going to offer one helluva an incentive to draw people in. Once the gaming mags actually preview it, they're going to be impressed, and they're going to be fully supportive. Hell, if it's great, people will buy it, doesn't matter where it comes from.



Do you think Simutronic's current customers won't feel alienated that massive amounts of resources have been pulled from their beloved games, threatening its survival, while Simutronics still charges them $40 a month for a TEXT-BASED game, and $14 a month for one of their other games?

On the contrary, 1> alot of the current customers are probably going to be really pleased with HJ.
2> GS, itself, probably doesn't have a terrible amount of overhead, therefore it will probably stay around, unless a certain financial threshold is crossed, then maybe the plug will get pulled.
3> if they're able to attract the player base that they want, then the customers of GS won't matter, in the grand scheme of things.



The sad fact is, though, that Simutronics has never ever proven that they will be capable of such an endeavor. MUD's and MMO's are very different beasts, requiring different business plans, different business strategies, different employees, different everything. Just because Simu is "good" in the MUD market (again, refer to the points I made earlier) does not mean they are qualified to enter the MMO market.

Ok, finally getting to the end here.

MMO's and MUD's are different, but I believe that simu will be able to re-create the MUD environment in an MMO. I know that alot of the 'plans' will draw people who want that sorta thing in a gaming experience and believe me, there are plenty of people out there.

On a funding level, if they draw enough interest, I imagine that private investors will be knocking at the doors..

[Apotheosis]

just to keep things separate, SIMU has always maintained the ablitility to interact and engage with their users at all the right levels..

You have the quest/merchant whores, as people lovingly refer to them
You have the solo'ers, who could give two shits
You have the merchants, who are happy because they can do what they want

and the list goes on.

Because gemstone can be 'played' in so many different ways, and approaches, it appeals to a broader market than anyone can really expect. You give people gemstone with graphics, and watch the masses flock as they can truly do whatever they want. Other MMO's stifle it to a degree, but giving people more is what I think they're doing, and addressing each consumer groups' needs' is what I believe their approach will be, and I guarantee that will be effective.

[Apotheosis]

One final thing.

Doesn't anyone even suspect that the changes that came with GS4 and are continuing to apply to GS4, the combat systems, magic systems, etc. just a testground for stuff they're going to be doing in HJ?

[HouseofElves]

Originally posted by Ilvane
I was pretty against trying the game, but it sounds good in the article. Besides they took a lot of real good GM"s for the project too.

-A

Most all our BEST GMs. It makes me crie for what GS will become without some of them.

[The Ponzzz]

Our motto, "More fun and less tedium" drives our process.


Heh, does someone wann tell the GMs in GS that?

[Landrion]

Originally posted by Soulpieced
Do you seriously think that there won't be an EQ3 or WOW Revisited by the end of 2006 that's 10 times better than what Simu has been trying to do for years upon end? Come on now.

Its easy to say that, but the name doesnt mean those games will be better than what is there now. Almost anyone I know that has played EQ1 and EQ2 says that EQ2 is an inferior game - that it is dumbed down EQ1 with better graphics.

When EQ1 was riding high it didnt seem like anyone was going to come close to them. But then WOW came along. So now it is natural to assume WOW will be king for a long time - but everything gets old and needs to continue to innovate. Sometimes the innovations piss off the old customer base and it goes downhill (as some claim about GS4).