Spell Idea: 716 - Demonic Fury

[Fallen]

Crossposted from the Official Boards

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Spell 716 - Demonic Fury

Using advanced knowledge of the differing valences, and the subtle manipulation of the fabric of reality, the sorcerer tears a small hole between our dimension and the next. This hole is located proximal to an extra-planar being of a random occurrence. The demon will be trapped between our valence and its own, with the tear in space slowly closing about it.

As this is an extremely painful and jarring process, the demon will lash out at the target unfortunate enough to be near its grasp. Depending on the physical make-up of the demon trapped, the being will attack with slash, pierce, crush, or ensnare type damage. On the rare occurrence that the demon is possessing of a particular elemental bias, extra "flaring" damage will be done to the target when and if the blow lands.

Due to the violent nature of this magic, the dimensional tear will only last a short while. The demon will be able to strike anywhere from one to three times before the rift seals, returning what's left of the creature to its home world. Training in the Sorcerer lore: Demonology will ensure that the demon is trapped long enough for multiple successive attacks.

----
Example:

You gesture at a black forest ogre.
A tear in the fabric of reality expands before you!
A half-crazed, mutilated Aishan claws desperately at a black forest ogre!
AS: +356 vs DS: +266 with AvD: +57 + d100 roll: +10 = +157
... and hit for 36 points of damage!
A half-crazed, mutilated Aishan claws desperately at a black forest ogre!
AS: +356 vs DS: +266 with AvD: +57 + d100 roll: +20 = +167
... and hit for 39 points of damage!
Minor slash to right arm. That hurts a bit.

A half-crazed, mutilated Aishan screams one last time in object terror as the tear disappears without further incident.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

----

As you can see, the spell would allow for 1-3 attacks on one creature within the space of a normal cast. For 16 mana, I believe the potential to strike 3 times at 1 target, with an added chance of a flare, is worth the cost. The spell would be different than all other types of "Bolt" spells due to its distinctive messaging, and mechanically in that it would allow for 3 strikes on the SAME target.

Looks pretty sorcerous to me. Thoughts?

Evarin and his Mis'ri

[Drew]

I like it, look cool.

[isebumples]

That spell looks very nice. So all the attack waves would go off simultaneously? Would spirit strike affect it, being a bolt spell, and if so, would it effect all waves, or just the first wave? Most interesting thing I've seen proposed for sorcerer's in a long time.

[Fallen]

Thanks Bumples,

The idea behind the spell was to come up with a means of conveyance for a sorcerer to have an AS based attack. That was my primary goal in coming up with the spell.

The actual damage output of the spell could be tweaked into balance with whatever spell slot it is given.

[isebumples]

I hope they do give sorcerer's a bolt attack (mines halfling, nice dex bonus <ducks>). I've heard all the talk sorcerer's not wanting bolt spells, because they would end up looking like wizards, but there isn't anything about that example that looks wizardish to me in the least.

[Fallen]

I am of a like mind, Bumples. Wizards have available to then Warding spells, Maneuver Spells, and of course Bolt Spells. So do Empaths, and clerics have both warding and bolt, minus the maneuver (Unless you count brimstone gems).

Semi's like Rangers also have all three.

I see no reasons why Sorcerers cannot pick up an AS based attack.

[isebumples]

Yeah, sorcs are almost forced into training spell aim for implode, anyways. Should at least give them a few more tricks (other than fire spirit) to use their skill with.

[StrayRogue]

Was that a GM idea or yours Evarin? If it was yours then kudos because it looks really good.

[Fallen]

Was that a GM idea or yours Evarin? If it was yours then kudos because it looks really good. >>

Mine, Strayrogue. Thanks.

[StrayRogue]

Yeah man, I totally thought (coz you said it was posted on the officials) that it was one of their ideas. And that can only be a good thing ;)

[Janarth]

I was pondering a spell idea as well, but this is much better. Nice idea, hope it gets implemented.

And if anyone is curious, I was thinking of a utility spell for sorcerers where we steal some of the animus from a creature and use it to bolster ourselves. If the target fails a CS based attack, we increase our max health, maybe con and strength bonuses for a little while. The length and amount of increase is based on how much the creature can give (warding a TK would help a lot) and how easily we can control the animus (lots of share maybe? necro ranks?)

[Parkbandit]

You forgot the bottom part of the spell description.

"Training in polearms and throwing weapons will determine the AS of the demon"

:lol:

[Fallen]

You forgot the bottom part of the spell description.

"Training in polearms and throwing weapons will determine the AS of the demon" >>
---

Spell aiming would play a role in the attacking Demon's strength, as one would need to properly position the tear near their opponent. Other determining factors could be Sorcerer Spell ranks, stats, and MOC training.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Fallen
You forgot the bottom part of the spell description.

"Training in polearms and throwing weapons will determine the AS of the demon" >>
---

Spell aiming would play a role in the attacking Demon's strength, as one would need to properly position the tear near their opponent. Other determining factors could be Sorcerer Spell ranks, stats, and MOC training.

I was being sarcastic.. as most of Simu's new stuff requires you to train in shit you never would otherwise.

[Skirmisher]

I like that spell idea also Evarin.

The attacks would not be an instantaneous 1,2,3 attck like a multi opponnent attack, but rather a spaced out attack? With the demon attacking , having rt, attacking again and having rt once more and then attacking again I mean?

[Numbers]

Much better than the shithole that Disease is.

[Asha]

Unbelievable idea. Excellent.

If I still have my account in 5 years time, I'll check the officials to see if they've even considered it.
I'm sure they have many more things on their to do list, in the meantime.

[hectomaner]

umm, 716 is disease though. and they were upgrading it, not changing it, i thought

[isebumples]

I think he proposed a spell shuffle, putting disease into a curse stance slot, thus freeing up a spell slot for us. I could be wrong, though.

[Fallen]

umm, 716 is disease though. and they were upgrading it, not changing it, i thought - Hecto

I think he proposed a spell shuffle, putting disease into a curse stance slot, thus freeing up a spell slot for us. I could be wrong, though. - Bumples >>

716 is indeed disease, and it looks as if Nilven intends to keep the spell slot that way as well. Those of us that are in favor of an AS based attack are looking to have Disease be a bolt spell, with debilitating effects after the initial damage is done.

Nilven seems open to the idea, and even suggested this method of delivery (AS based) once several players brought it up as an option. He has also stated that any "bolt" sorcerers could have would possess the DF's of Major Shock.

The opposition to this idea, and basically any idea of having an AS based attack spell on the sorcerer spell list comes from those who hold the belief that AS based attacks are the sole property of wizards.
They are under the impression that no AS based spell could be designed that would appear sorcerous in nature. If it is not a warding spell, or a maneuver spell, it cannot be an offensive sorcerer spell.

I, and several others disagree. The debate rages on in the Sorcerer folder as we speak.

[Omens]

Originally posted by isebumples
I think he proposed a spell shuffle, putting disease into a curse stance slot, thus freeing up a spell slot for us. I could be wrong, though.


I think it sucks. Sorry. But spell aiming, for a sorcerer circle spell ? No way. We are not wizards, and I hope nothing like this ever enters our profession's main lists. If I wanted to train in Spell Aim I would be a wizard. If you took a Minor list and put it in there or something then ok. But Sorcerer's are Cs/Td masters. And a AS spell just does not fit. I dont think a Sorcerer should be forced to train in a Wizard skill to use one of his/her Sorcerer circle spells.

[Edited on 6-23-2005 by Omens]

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Omens

I think it sucks. Sorry. But spell aiming, for a sorcerer circle spell ? No way. We are not wizards, and I hope nothing like this ever enters our profession's main lists. If I wanted to train in Spell Aim I would be a wizard. If you took a Minor list and put it in there or something then ok. But Sorcerer's are Cs/Td masters. And a AS spell just does not fit. I dont think a Sorcerer should be forced to train in a Wizard skill to use one of his/her Sorcerer circle spells.

[Edited on 6-23-2005 by Omens]

Umm. actually Omens, Spell Aiming is already a heavly trained skill for sorcerers. It improoves both implode, and maelstrom. Most Sorcerers at least single in it. Personally, I 2x it.

[Omens]

That's the key word though. ""Improves"" Implosion works well by itself with no spell aim. So does maelstorm. If you want to target it you need Spell Aim. Spell aim does nothing for the spell itself. This spell would seem to require spell aim. And I dont think that's right at all.

Also. Spell Aim does nothing to 720 or 710, as far as damage goes. The spells do the same damage spell aim or no. The only thing spell aim does it allow you to target it better to get the full effect as if it were open casted, but just on one critter.

[Edited on 6-23-2005 by Omens]

[Edited on 6-23-2005 by Omens]

[Asha]

Before you edit your post to contradict yourself even more, Omens. If you want any success targeting 708, 710 or 720 you have to train in spell aim.
Let's have it once more..
-------------------------------
Omens' post:

Also. Spell Aim does nothing to 720 or 710, as far as damage goes. The spells do the same damage spell aim or no. The only thing spell aim does it allow you to target it better to get the full effect as if it were open casted, but just on one critter.

[Omens]

Heh, Shaddap. =P Your not getin what I mean obviously. And that's my fault. I know what I want to say in my head but have a hard time puting it down in words.

The point I was trying to make is that Spell Aim does not improve the spell itself. And can be proven by casting open implosion with spell aim and without spell aim. You will get the same effect. Spell aim only helps how well you target it. Not the damage the spell does. The more spell aim. The Less damage you lose in the targeted version. It does not increase damage in any way. See what I'm geting at ? Spell Aim is still not a requirment for the spell.

The spell suggested in this thread would use Spell Aim as a base for how much damage you can do while all other sorcerer spells do not. And that does not fit in the sorcerer circle.

[Xandalf]

Originally posted by isebumples
I think he proposed a spell shuffle, putting disease into a curse stance slot, thus freeing up a spell slot for us. I could be wrong, though.

Disease will not be put into a curse slot.
It will also not be replaced.
It WILL be fixed/changed significantly. We are debating in what form those changes will come

[Asha]

Although I understand your point now, Omens. I still believe sorcerers have been using spell aim since the beginning. It's essential for focused 708 as ambush is for aiming attacks.

I DO get what you're saying about using spell aim for 710 and 720 merely to get the same effect as an open cast. But who actually open casts as much as focused with these spells?
It's a damn good idea for a spell.
And since my character is demonology, in training. I couldn't give a shit about 716 as it is.

:yes:

[Parkbandit]

Like you choose not to train in spell aiming for maelstrom or implosion.. you can choose not to train in spell aiming for this spell as well.

Personally, as a sorcerer, I would train in anything I could to improve the damage of any of my utilized spells.

[Asha]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Like you choose not to train in spell aiming for maelstrom or implosion.. you can choose not to train in spell aiming for this spell as well.

Personally, as a sorcerer, I would train in anything I could to improve the damage of any of my utilized spells.

Word.

[Xandalf]

Originally posted by Omens
I think it sucks. Sorry. But spell aiming, for a sorcerer circle spell ? No way. We are not wizards, and I hope nothing like this ever enters our profession's main lists. If I wanted to train in Spell Aim I would be a wizard. If you took a Minor list and put it in there or something then ok. But Sorcerer's are Cs/Td masters. And a AS spell just does not fit. I dont think a Sorcerer should be forced to train in a Wizard skill to use one of his/her Sorcerer circle spells.

[Edited on 6-23-2005 by Omens]

It is not a requirment. If you don't want to train in Spell Aiming, you certaintly do not have to.

Xandalf has Animate Dead, does that imply that he HAS to train in necro lore? No, of course not. He doesn't train in necro lore and doesn't use the spell. It is your choice if you want to use the spell effectivly or not.

[Omens]

Omens. I still believe sorcerers have been using spell aim since the beginning.

The begining of what ? Sorcerer's never had a AS spell till they changed 111. And that wasnt verry long ago. Spell Aim was useless to sorcerer's for as far back as I can remeber. The only thing I guess Spell Aim did for a sorcerer back in the day was let you use wizard wands. But was much to expencive for that reason alone.



Xandalf has Animate Dead, does that imply that he HAS to train in necro lore? No, of course not. He doesn't train in necro lore and doesn't use the spell. It is your choice if you want to use the spell effectivly or not.

Lores are a Sorcerer's skill though. So I dont see how that even fits into what my argument is about. I agree that they should use lores and you shouldnt be able to use the spell if you dont have the,. I have no problum with that.

[Omens]

Like you choose not to train in spell aiming for maelstrom or implosion.. you can choose not to train in spell aiming for this spell as well.

Personally, as a sorcerer, I would train in anything I could to improve the damage of any of my utilized spells.


I agree with you. But why make a spell that is based off a wizard skill in the first place ? If it was say,, a Cs based spell that had some extra features like the 2 or 3 hit's based off the aim then I'd be ok with that. But to have it be required to train in a Wizard skill to use a Sorcerer spell is just silly IMO.

[Omens]

I DO get what you're saying about using spell aim for 710 and 720 merely to get the same effect as an open cast. But who actually open casts as much as focused with these spells?
It's a damn good idea for a spell.


I think it's a good spell too. Looks cool. I just dont agree with the requirments for use.

[Xandalf]

Your argument was:


Originally posted by Omens
I dont think a Sorcerer should be forced to train in a Wizard skill to use one of his/her Sorcerer circle spells.
[Edited on 6-23-2005 by Omens]

The point is that nobody is forcing you to train in anything. Giving sorcerers another option, another choice is a good thing.

And I hardly see it as turning sorcerers into wizards. Clerics have their own, unique bolt spell. Are they wizards? Empaths have their own, unique bolt spell. Are they wizards?

Many professions have unique CS spells. Does that make them sorcerers?

The answer to all these questions is, of course, no.

[Omens]

The point is that nobody is forcing you to train in anything. Giving sorcerers another option, another choice is a good thing.


At the cost of a Cs based spell. I'd vote no. :shrug:

Edit:

Your not just adding a choice for Sorcerer's. To some sorcerer's, your taking away a choice.

Anyway, I think Simu's making the right choice in keeping Spell Aim an optional skill, a side skill. :)

[Edited on 6-23-2005 by Omens]

[Xandalf]

At the cost of what? Disease as it currently stands? How often have you ever used disease? (Excluding CvC)

[Omens]

Every day.

[Fallen]

First, let me clear up some misconceptions about Implosion, and the effects of spell aiming that were listed in this thread.

"The point I was trying to make is that Spell Aim does not improve the spell itself. And can be proven by casting open implosion with spell aim and without spell aim. You will get the same effect. Spell aim only helps how well you target it. Not the damage the spell does. The more spell aim. The Less damage you lose in the targeted version. It does not increase damage in any way. See what I'm geting at ? Spell Aim is still not a requirment for the spell. "

1. The Initial cast of Open implosion does no damage. A level 100 character could cast the spell in front of a level 1 character, and all that would be achieved is a lengthy stun, and the target knocked prone.

The exceptions to this are if there is debris on the ground, or the "Target" of the open implosion was already stunned.Were the void to remain open for successive rounds, damage would be done for 4(?) rounds, with the fourth round having the implosion close, forcing all of the air the void displaced back into the area for a higher damage threshold than the previous occuring rounds. Factors for the strength of an open implosion are sketchy at best, though of course do not include Spell Aiming.

[DeV]

Kinda late in reading this but the write up is excellent. Very thoughtful in its entirety, Fallen. It looks very cool.

[Fallen]

2. - Focused Implosion and Spell Aiming -

Let us first start by reading the Official documentation for the spell:

"There are two versions of this spell, focused (single target), which requires skill training in Spell Aiming and unfocused, which affects all characters/creatures/objects in the area."

Though the documentation states that Spell Aiming is a requirement for focused implosion, you can cast the spell without it.
The difference between your level, and your opponents level is the primary factor (along with a hidden roll) in determining the damage done by implosion barring any natural resistances to the spell. What spell aiming does, is reduce the penalties for casting at targets of a higher level, thus allowing for greater damage on targets further away from "like level" status.
The difference between someone who has 2xed Spell Aiming, and someone who has zero spell aiming at level 40, when casting at a normal target that is level 50 will be substancial. There is recorded data on the effects of spell aim derived from repeated player testing of the skill that was at one time listed on the official boards.
You can still use Focused Implosion with a good degree of success without the skill of Spell Aiming, however your Target/Level effectiveness threshhold will be FAR smaller than one who does train in the skill.

There is an exception to this explanation that will stated in my next post.

[Fallen]

3. The Introduction of Spell Aiming into the Sorcerer Training Regimen -

Spell Aiming became a training staple, if not a requirement with the introduction of the Focused version of Maelstrom and Implosion.

The idea of Spell Aiming as a heavily trained skill moved from the realm of novelty, to prominent sorcerer training path. One must remember, though, that this change occurred during the time of GS3, where there were no Fixskills or Reallocations. To appease the uproar that surely took place (I wasn't reading the boards at this time), GM Romulus (?) coded into both spells a caveat:

If you were on the higher range of the level spectrum, the Level - Damage threshold of your focused Implosions/Maelstroms would be less dependant on Spell Aiming than at lower levels. This allowed older sorcerers to make use of this spell without the seeming "Requirement" of 1-2x Spell Aiming.

With the move to GS4, and the advent of Fixskills, I am unaware as to the current status of that aspect of the Focused Implosion/Maelstrom. I will not bring this issue up on the official boards, as I do not want this "Consideration" to be eliminated, thus weakening sorcerers who choose not to train in Spell Aiming.

[Fallen]

Finally, let us return to the matter at hand: 716 as an AS Based Attack.

I was originally of the opinion that the Attack Strength of a "Sorcerous Bolt" did not have to be reliant upon the skill of Spell Aiming. I believed we could base casting AS for our closed circle spell upon any number of Skills.

GM Nilven then corrected me by saying that any AS based spell attack on the Sorcerer Spell List WILL be reliant primarily upon Spell Aiming as the determining factor for our generated AS. He likely stated this as he has already proposed the idea of a "Sorcerer bolt spell" to his superiors, and was given the limitations he would have to work within.

Just as Implosion can be used without Spell Aiming, so could an AS Based Spell attack placed upon the Sorcerer Circle. Would you be able to use the spell as effectively as someone who was optimally trained for the spell? No, and you should not be able to either.

Sorcerers have easily among the most disabling spells of any profession. We can lower a target's DS drastically, while using our spells to increase our AS by a considerable amount as well. Sorcerers proficiently trained for the use of the spell would have to rely less on these tactics. However, the spell still remains viable to those who are not.

Comparing the spell of Implosion to ANY offensive spell is unfair, as every other profession will be quick to tell you the spell is horribly unbalanced.

Grin

P.S.

"Every day. " - Omens, when asked how often he uses the spell of disease outside of a CvC setting

Do tell, Omens. Do tell.

[Edited on 6-23-2005 by Fallen]

[Omens]

I do the same thing in OTF with it as I did with 701 in Manticores and thraks.

[Janarth]

Originally posted by Omens
Heh, Shaddap. =P Your not getin what I mean obviously. And that's my fault. I know what I want to say in my head but have a hard time puting it down in words.

The point I was trying to make is that Spell Aim does not improve the spell itself. And can be proven by casting open implosion with spell aim and without spell aim. You will get the same effect. Spell aim only helps how well you target it. Not the damage the spell does. The more spell aim. The Less damage you lose in the targeted version. It does not increase damage in any way. See what I'm geting at ? Spell Aim is still not a requirment for the spell.

The spell suggested in this thread would use Spell Aim as a base for how much damage you can do while all other sorcerer spells do not. And that does not fit in the sorcerer circle.

Without spell aim and these improvements, we'd have the really cool but really useless spells. Can you imagine if 720 and 710 weren't aimable? Sure, once in a blue moon, atleast 710 only affects one room, but....Can anyone say Meteor Swarm? Yeah, thats useful...