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Atlanteax
06-14-2005, 04:17 PM
I thought this was interesting...

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A Stratfor Analysis

http://www.stratfor.com/products/premium/read_article.php?id=249997

Geopolitics, Strategy and Military Recruitment: The American Dilemma
June 14, 2005 19 50 GMT

By George Friedman


The United States Army has failed once again to reach its recruitment goals. The media, which have noted the problem in maintaining force levels in a desultory fashion over the past few years, have now rotated the story of this month's shortfall into a major story. In other words, the problem has now been noticed, and it is now important. Of course, the problem has been important for quite some time, as Stratfor noted in late December.

There are, therefore, two dimensions to this problem: One is military, the other is political. But the most important is geopolitical and strategic, having to do with the manner in which the United States fights wars and the way in which the U.S. military is organized. The issue is not recruitment. The issue is the incongruence between U.S. geopolitics, strategy and the force.

The United States dominates North America militarily against all but two threats. First, it cannot defend the homeland against nuclear attacks launched by missile. Second, it cannot defend the United States against special operations teams carrying out attacks such as those of Sept. 11, 2001. The American solution in both of these cases has been offensive. In the case of nuclear missiles, the counter has always been either the pre-emptive strike or the devastating counter-strike, coupled with political arrangements designed to reduce the threat. The counter to special-operations strikes has been covert and overt attacks against nation-states that launch or facilitate these attacks, or harbor the attackers. Contrary to popular opinion, launching small teams into the United States without detection is not easy and requires sophisticated support, normally traceable in some way to nation-states. The U.S. strategy has been to focus on putting those nation-states at risk, directly or indirectly, if attacks take place.

Apart from these two types of attack, the United States is fairly invulnerable to military action. The foundation of this invulnerability falls into three parts:

The United States is overwhelmingly powerful in North America, and Latin America is divided, inward-looking, and poor. A land invasion of the United States from the south would be impossible.

The United States controls the oceans absolutely. It is militarily impossible that an Eastern Hemispheric power could mount a sustained threat to sea lanes, let alone mount an amphibious operation against the United States.

The primary U.S. interest is in maintaining a multi-level balance of power in Eurasia, so that no single power can dominate Eurasia and utilize its resources.

In terms of preventing nuclear strikes and special operations against the United States and in terms of managing the geopolitical system in Eurasia, the United States has a tremendous strategic advantage that grows out of its geopolitical position -- U.S. wars, regardless of level, are fought on the territory of other countries. With the crucial exception of Sept. 11, foreign attacks on U.S. soil do not happen. When they do happen, the United States responds by redefining the war into a battle for other homelands.

This spares the American population from the rigors of war while imposing wars on foreign countries. But for the American civilian population to escape war, the U.S. armed forces must be prepared to go to war on a global basis. Herein begins the dilemma. The American strategic goal is to spare the general population from war. This is done by creating a small class of military who must bear the burden. It also is accomplished through a volunteer force -- men and women choose to bear the burden. During extended war, as the experience of the civilian population and the military population diverge dramatically, the inevitable tendency is for the military to abandon the rigors of war and join the protected majority. In a strategy that tries to impose no cost on civilians while increasing the cost on the military, the inevitable outcome is that growing numbers of the military class will become civilians.

This is the heart of the problem, but it is not all of the problem. The American strategy in Eurasia is to maintain a balance of power. The basic role of the United States is as blocker -- blocking Eurasian powers from adding to their power, and increasing insecurity among major powers so as to curb their ambitions.

Thus, a strategic dilemma for the United States is born. On a grand strategic scale, the United States controls the international system -- but at the strategic level, it does not choose the time or place of its own military interventions. Put very simply, the United States controls the global system, but its enemies determine when it goes to war and where, and the nature of these wars tends to put U.S. forces on the tactical defensive.

During the 1990s, for example, the United States was constantly responding to actions by others that passed a threshold, beyond which ignoring the action was impossible. From 1989 onward, the United States intervened in Panama, Kuwait, Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia and Kosovo, not counting lesser interventions in places like Liberia or Colombia. Nor does it count the interventions and deployments throughout the Muslim world and contiguous areas since 2001.

The grand strategic configuration means that the United States does not hold the strategic initiative. The time and place of U.S. intervention is very much in the hands of regional forces. In some cases, the intervention is the result of miscalculation on the side of regional forces. In other cases, U.S. intervention is shaped by some regional player. For example, Iraq did not expect a U.S. response to its invasion of Kuwait in 1990; Saddam Hussein miscalculated. In the case of Kosovo, a regional actor, Albania, shaped U.S. intervention. In both events, however, given the operating principles of grand strategy, American military involvement is overwhelmingly responsive and therefore, from the U.S. point of view, unpredictable.

Though others determine the general time and place of U.S. intervention, the operational level remains in the hands of the United States. But here too, there are severe constraints. U.S. interventions suffer from a core paradox: The political cycle of an intervention frequently runs in days or weeks, but the time it takes to bring major force to bear is measured in months. That means that the United States must always bring insufficient force to bear in the relevant time period -- in a kind of holding action -- and contain the situation until sufficient force for a resolution becomes available. Thus, U.S. interventions begin with CIA paramilitaries and U.S. Special Operations Command. At times, these forces can complete the mission. But sometimes, all they can do is prepare the ground and hold until relieved by major force.

Very rapidly, the United States finds itself on the tactical defensive -- lacking decisive force, at a massive demographic disadvantage, and frequently suffering from an intelligence deficit. Even after the main force arrives, the United States can remain in a defensive tactical situation for an extended period. This places U.S. troops in a difficult position.

The entire structure creates another strategic problem. The United States does not control its interventions. It is constantly at risk of being overwhelmed by multiple theaters of operation that outstrip the size of its military force or of its logistical base. Between the tactical defensive and the strategic defensive, U.S. forces must scale themselves to events that are beyond their control or prediction.

The unexpected is built into U.S. grand strategy, which dictates that the U.S. armed forces will not know their next mission. U.S. strategy is reflexive. U.S. operational principles do provide an advantage, but that can bleed off at the tactical level. In the end, the U.S. force is, almost by definition, stretched beyond what it can reasonably be expected to do. This situation is hardwired into the U.S. geopolitical system.

The U.S. force was never configured for this reality. It was designed first to cope with a general war with the Soviet Union, focused on central Europe. After the collapse of the Soviets, the technological base remained relatively stable: It remained a combined arms force including armor, carrier battle groups and fighter planes. All of these take a long time to get to the theater, are excellent at destroying conventional forces, and are weak at pacification.

Donald Rumsfeld has identified the problem: The force is too slow to get to the theater in a politically consequential period of time. Getting there too late, it immediately finds itself on the defensive, while the brunt of the early battle focuses on Special Operations forces and air power. The problem that Rumsfeld has not effectively addressed is that occupation warfare -- which is what we have seen in Iraq for the past few years -- requires a multi-level approach, ranging from special operations to very large occupation forces.

Put this differently: The U.S. invasion of Iraq required everything from an armored thrust to strategic bombing to special operations to civil affairs. It required every type of warfare imaginable. That is indeed the reality of American strategy. Not only is the time and place of military intervention unpredictable, but so is the force structure. Any attempt to predict the nature of the next war is doomed to fail. The United States does not control the time or place of the next war; it has no idea what that war will look like or where it will be.

The United States has always built its force around expectations of both where the next war would be fought and how it would be fought. From "Air-Land Battle" to "Military operations other than war," U.S. military doctrine has always been marked by two things: Military planners were always certain they had a handle on what the next war would be like, and they were always dead wrong.

The military structure that was squeezed out of the Cold War force after 1989 assumed that wars would be infrequent, that they would be short, that they would be manageable. Building on these assumptions, U.S. military planners loaded key capabilities into reserve and National Guard units, cut back on forces that didn't fit into this paradigm and then -- even when reality showed they were wrong -- they tried to compensate with technology rather than with restructuring the force.

Wars have been more frequent since the fall of the Soviet Union than they were before. They occur in less predictable places. They tend not to be brief, but to be of long duration and to pile up on each other -- and they frequently are unmanageable for an extended period of time. The United States does not have tactical advantages with the forces provided.

As a result, the force is deployed far more than planned, troops are forced to rotate too rapidly through assignments in combat zones, and they operate in environments where operational requirements force them too often into tactically defensive situations. That all of this is managed with a force that is drawn heavily from reserves is simply the icing on the cake. The force does not match the reality.

We began by pointing out the goal is -- and should be -- to protect the American public from war, with volunteers placing themselves between home and war's desolation. This strategic goal, while appropriate, creates a class of warriors and a broader class of indifferent civilians. Given the situation, it will follow that sensible warriors, having done their duty in their own minds, will choose to join the ranks of civilians, while civilians will avoid service.

There has been talk of a draft. That is a bad idea for technical reasons: It takes too long to train a soldier for a draft to solve the problems, and today's soldiers need to be too skilled and motivated for a reluctant civilian to master their craft. Moreover, this is not a force that would benefit from the service of 19-year-olds. Many of the jobs in the military could be done by people in their 40s and 50s, who would bring useful skills into the military. We would support a draft only if it included all ages of men and women who had not previously served. There is no reason that an accountant in civilian life could not provide valuable military service in Afghanistan, maintaining logistics inventory. The United States does not need to draft children.

Since that isn't going to happen, and since the United States does not have the option of abandoning its strategy, the United States must reshape the force to meet the single most important reality: The United States will be at war a lot of the time, and no one really knows where or when it will go to war. The challenges in military retention or inability to meet recruiting goals mean that the United States continues to recruit children, as if this were the 19th century.

Sean of the Thread
06-14-2005, 04:20 PM
I'm glad you thought it was interesting.

Revalos
06-14-2005, 08:23 PM
Yeah...um...this is why STRATFOR is not usually looked to for insight anymore from major news sources/US Gov't. It is just a rehash of the same "problem" that the US has always had:

We are too far away.

We developed a culture of defense because of our distance...we haven't declared a war that hasn't been declared on us (in most cases, or at least to a degree).

This isn't a problem, it is just the way things are.

Latrinsorm
06-14-2005, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by Revalos
we haven't declared a war that hasn't been declared on usWell yeah, after we beat the hell out of everyone on the continent.

06-14-2005, 08:44 PM
They neglect to mention how the force structure of the military is currently changing. The implementation of the Stryker Brigade Combat Teams (SBCT) [10 in total once they have all been started] was created to solve this problem. It will only take 96 hours from first notice until a SBCT can be on the ground engaged in ground warfare at full force. They are also being treated as the SWAT teams of the army, designed and trained for urban warfare.
I had to correct that flaw in the article, sorry.
All they needed to say instead of writing all of that is "we are at war and people don't want to join because of that."

[Edited on 6-15-2005 by Dave]

Atlanteax
06-14-2005, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by Dave
They neglect to mention how the force structure of the military is currently changing. The implementation of the Stryker Brigade Combat Teams (SBCT) [10 in total once they have all been started] was created to solve this problem. It will only take 96 hours from first notice until a SBCT can be on the ground engaged in ground warfare at full force. They are also being treated as the SWAT teams of the army, designed and trained for urban warfare.
I had to correct that flaw in the article, sorry.
All they needed to say instead of writing all of that is "we are at war and people don't want to join because of that."

[Edited on 6-15-2005 by Dave]

That's not what the article said.

It said that Rumsfield is aware of the obselete force structure and is trying to change it from the static cold war mentality.

Recruiting is tough because there is little incentive to join the military. Stratfor has been arguing for higher military pay to compete with the civilian sectors.

Back
06-14-2005, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Dave
All they needed to say instead of writing all of that is "we are at war and people don't want to join because of that."

I’ve read many an article that has stated that since January. But this article does try to at least articulate a little more than that.

But I feel that saying “We are a nation at war” is a little Orwellian in that there is no war on our soil. Its a very distant war we only hear about, we being the American civilian public. I think that give the reality of it insubstantiability which leads to general apathy or lack of concern. Now, I’m not saying that about our enlisted, or their families to which I am sure it is very, very real.

I do not have a child of age, but I would imagine if I did, I would recommend not enlisting at this point in time, perhaps for the selfish reason of not wanting to lose them, but even moreso for other reasons that I’m sure everyone here can guess. Regardless of reason, that trend does seem to be shared if you look at recruitment numbers over the past two years.

They also talk about a draft, and how all ages should be involved, which believe it or not I do agree. What a graphic artist can do for this war I shudder to think about.

06-14-2005, 08:58 PM
they still left it out, which irked me being part of a SBCT

I would love higher pay, but I don't want to have people beside me who just joined for money, college tuition, or other similar reasons. I want somebody to join because they love their country and they feel a responsibility to defend what they love, be it their country, their family, or whatever other reasons they can justify it.

Soulpieced
06-14-2005, 09:39 PM
I have the utmost respect for the warfighters. Good thing Soulpieced would get a waiver out of being in a draft for physical reasons :noob:

Skirmisher
06-14-2005, 09:47 PM
Flatfoot!

06-14-2005, 11:32 PM
C'mon Dave, I like you, but give it a rest. Who really cares why somebody joins up? As long as they go in, put in 100%, and worry about the guy next to them and about completing the mission, that's all that matters.

I think if we had people joining up solely for patriotic reasons then we'd have an Army of no more than 2,000 strong. Simple as that. Soldiers need higher pay, done deal. They need higher benefits. Since they retire early and cannot live on their retirement pention after putting in 20 years, our infantry men (notice how strongly I feel about this one) NEED BETTER SKILLS GOING OUT INTO THE CIVILIAN FORCE SO THEY ARE NO STUCK BIENG POLICE OFFICERS!!!!

Don't get me wrong, a lot has been done. The tuition assistance, loan repayment, and GI Bills are wonderful steps in the right direction, but enough isn't being done. People still see the military as a last resort rather than a good career to seriously consider. Why do you think you enlisted before telling your parents? If it was so great, they would have supported you.

Simply, we're running short because its too much for too little. If the military wants to be considered by people, expecially PROFESSIONALS, we need to up the ante here. Let's not let ridiculous flag waving get in the way of logic here.

- Arkans

AnticorRifling
06-14-2005, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by Dave
They neglect to mention how the force structure of the military is currently changing. The implementation of the Stryker Brigade Combat Teams (SBCT) [10 in total once they have all been started] was created to solve this problem. It will only take 96 hours from first notice until a SBCT can be on the ground engaged in ground warfare at full force. They are also being treated as the SWAT teams of the army, designed and trained for urban warfare.
[Edited on 6-15-2005 by Dave]

Holy shit!! Why not just call them WWTBM (We Want To Be Marines). Seriously the Army is always a day late and a dollar short. This is going to be another classic example of ohh shit their way is better let's try that. Then it will fail because they fail to realize the reason our way works is because of several factors that will never come into fruition in the Army. No offense but go back to being 400,000 armies of 1 while we handle the quick stuff and then you can come in and fight the sustained battles.

06-14-2005, 11:41 PM
Anticor, the thing is, the Army isn't designed to work that way. The Army is meant to be a slow, delliberate, powerful machine that relies on sheer power and resources to win. Its the way it is now and rightfully so, simply because that's how wars were fought in the past.

- Arkans

AnticorRifling
06-14-2005, 11:43 PM
Correct and it will fail in it's plan to change based on it's sheer size. Marine Corps, to include weekend yut heads, is sitting at about 174,000 strong. We move fast for a reason. Plus we are touching down anywhere, ready to hook and jab within 24 hours. 96 hours? Way to be a three day weekend late.

06-14-2005, 11:46 PM
And thats the been the flaw of any large orginization. You can't have the Army fight like the Marines. It will be too expensive, physically impossible, and just not efficient. Not to mention, SOMEONE needs to control, occupy, and face the larger threat. This would be the main Army. It's ridiculous to assume that a "regular" force should be acting like an "elite" force.

- Arkans

PS: You can quote me on that, the Marines are far and above much more elite than the Army is, but elite troops have rarely made a difference in history over *regular* troops as far as large scale warfare is concerned.

AnticorRifling
06-14-2005, 11:47 PM
Elite troops start and finish all things in history they are called assasins and ninjas :cool:

06-14-2005, 11:50 PM
The purpose of Elite soldiers is very narrow though. They are not able to perform as many tasks as regular soldiers, but are able to perform the task they are narrowly trained in better. In general, they are the first in and the first out, but the whole middle is taken up by the regulars.

- Arkans

AnticorRifling
06-14-2005, 11:52 PM
Tru. That being said I'm going to bed because there is a naked woman in it.

I wonder when my wife gets home? KIDDING!!!!

06-14-2005, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by AnticorRifling
Tru. That being said I'm going to bed because there is a naked man in it.

I wonder when my wife gets home?


Hey, it's 2005 and that sort of stuff is okay. Just be open with your wife.

- Arkans

06-14-2005, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by AnticorRifling
Correct and it will fail in it's plan to change based on it's sheer size. Marine Corps, to include weekend yut heads, is sitting at about 174,000 strong. We move fast for a reason. Plus we are touching down anywhere, ready to hook and jab within 24 hours. 96 hours? Way to be a three day weekend late.

Thats 96hours as a medium armored unit. Not lightfighters as the marines roll. Trust me I give you guys all the props for the stuff you do, as much as I make fun of you, you guys are awesome.

06-15-2005, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by Arkans
C'mon Dave, I like you, but give it a rest. Who really cares why somebody joins up? As long as they go in, put in 100%, and worry about the guy next to them and about completing the mission, that's all that matters.

I think if we had people joining up solely for patriotic reasons then we'd have an Army of no more than 2,000 strong. Simple as that. Soldiers need higher pay, done deal. They need higher benefits. Since they retire early and cannot live on their retirement pention after putting in 20 years, our infantry men (notice how strongly I feel about this one) NEED BETTER SKILLS GOING OUT INTO THE CIVILIAN FORCE SO THEY ARE NO STUCK BIENG POLICE OFFICERS!!!!

Don't get me wrong, a lot has been done. The tuition assistance, loan repayment, and GI Bills are wonderful steps in the right direction, but enough isn't being done. People still see the military as a last resort rather than a good career to seriously consider. Why do you think you enlisted before telling your parents? If it was so great, they would have supported you.

Simply, we're running short because its too much for too little. If the military wants to be considered by people, expecially PROFESSIONALS, we need to up the ante here. Let's not let ridiculous flag waving get in the way of logic here.

- Arkans

You are right. I am an idealist though, I can dream.

The problem with what you are suggesting (give the infantry better skills on the outside) is that they have the opportunity but dont take it. There are a lot of young guys that are in my troop here, and I have been trying for the life of me to get them to start taking college courses. But they just lack the desire. In the regular army (whe the funding is not on hold because of congress playing politics with it) you get about 5k a year to take college classes, for books and tuition. Nobody seems to want to take advantage of it though. Perhaps if it was a forced education, and instead of sweeping water around until it drys for two hours at the end of every day we should send people to a classroom and have them further their education.

Fengus
06-15-2005, 12:42 AM
Dave: Being in the military for "patriotic" reasons is group mind bullshit they sell you in bootcamp.
Mr Harvard grad putting chinese children to work to make you some plastic noise makers for your kids birthday party is doing far more to further the american way than a bunch of semi-literate poor folk whos only option in life is to use their very life as value in barter for the military.
Support our troops is a snide way of saying better your ass than mine. I estimate I would need two times more than what I am currently making to do what the average marine does and risk my life doing it, which unfortunately equates to about 10 times more than USMC is willing to pay. And I am far more patriotic than you will even be, by philosophical mindset alone.

Atlanteax
06-15-2005, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by Arkans

Originally posted by AnticorRifling
Tru. That being said I'm going to bed because there is a naked man in it.

I wonder when my wife gets home?


Hey, it's 2005 and that sort of stuff is okay. Just be open with your wife.

- Arkans

PWNed!! :lol:

Nice "Zing" there Arkans. :smug:

06-15-2005, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by Fengus
Dave: Being in the military for "patriotic" reasons is group mind bullshit they sell you in bootcamp.
I signed my contract for those reasons. *before* bootcamp
Seems you don't know to much about what they "sell" you in bootcamp.


Mr Harvard grad putting chinese children to work to make you some plastic noise makers for your kids birthday party is doing far more to further the american way than a bunch of semi-literate poor folk who's only option in life is to use their very life as value in barter for the military.
You would be surprised how many "college" grads are in the military. All officers, and about half of your enlisted ranks have a degree of some sort (just about everyone above E-6 and a large number of your enlisted members come in as specialists because of a bachelors degree.

Support our troops is a snide way of saying better your ass than mine. I estimate I would need two times more than what I am currently making to do what the average marine does and risk my life doing it, which unfortunately equates to about 10 times more than USMC is willing to pay. And I am far more patriotic than you will even be, by philosophical mindset alone.

I highly doubt that. It takes some balls to sign your life and your rights away. To some, like myself, pay was not a issue. I doubt with your elitist mentality you would make it far, the military would be far to humbling an experience for you. You would probably end up being one of the idiots who try to commit suicide.

Edit to add: Know a little bit of what you are talking about before you go on a rant like that.


[Edited on 6-15-2005 by Dave]

Ebondale
06-15-2005, 02:28 AM
This "Striker Brigade" concept sounds a lot like the Air Force's Aerospace Expeditionary Force (AEF) structure. We will have an entire theater of war covered within 48 hours of first notice.

:medieval:

06-15-2005, 09:05 AM
And that's great, Dave, really. It's awesome that there really are true to the bone American idealists out there, but the problem is, it doesn't work as a way of meeting recruitment goals or having enough troop strength. It doesn't matter *WHY* someone is fighting just as long as they are fighting or performing their job to the best of their ability and meeting DoD standards. Simple as that. Disqualifying people just because they do not fall into the idealist patriotic mold would hurt the military in the long run for sure.

Also Dave, the college courses and the degrees from these courses are poor to say the least. These degrees are worthless compared to what you'd get from a regular school. University of Pheonix? Give me a break. Their online degrees are an absolute joke. We need decent school offering their services and it still needs to be easier for service people to take these course.

The problem now is that you have soldiers coming in from an exhausting day, week, hell, month of training and then they have to hit the books to earn their sub-par degree. On paper its great, in practice though? I'm not entirely too sure. There need to be self developement courses mandated by the military for all sorts of careers that would put people out there and actually be able to compete to the average graduate, because honestly, they can't right now. Unfortunately, all the respect, good wishes, and adoration from the average citizen might get your meal payed by some guy at a restaurant, but it won't land you a real job.

- Arkans

AnticorRifling
06-15-2005, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Fengus
Dave: Being in the military for "patriotic" reasons is group mind bullshit they sell you in bootcamp.
Mr Harvard grad putting chinese children to work to make you some plastic noise makers for your kids birthday party is doing far more to further the american way than a bunch of semi-literate poor folk whos only option in life is to use their very life as value in barter for the military.
Support our troops is a snide way of saying better your ass than mine. I estimate I would need two times more than what I am currently making to do what the average marine does and risk my life doing it, which unfortunately equates to about 10 times more than USMC is willing to pay. And I am far more patriotic than you will even be, by philosophical mindset alone.

You couldn't be more wrong on all accounts. It's too bad I have to go to this development meeting and pretend to care about the whining and bitching that's going to happen or I'd expound upon my first statement. Maybe later when I've got time...

06-15-2005, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Ebondale
This "Striker Brigade" concept sounds a lot like the Air Force's Aerospace Expeditionary Force (AEF) structure. We will have an entire theater of war covered within 48 hours of first notice.

:medieval:

The SBCT has everything from anti tank, artillery, infantry, recon, Intel, engineers, medic. Basically it is a self sustaining unit. It takes care of its own logistics and does not need aid from an outside source. Previously it would take different units that had nothing in common to support a combat unit, with the SBCT its all encompassing. It allows for a better rounded fighting machine that gets what it needs quicker.

As to the "marines" that's what we have the Airborne for. 48hours on the ground as lightfighters.

AnticorRifling
06-15-2005, 06:28 PM
48 hours... Still a day late and a dollar short :cool:

06-15-2005, 07:38 PM
well that's off the ground in 18 hours, completely deployed and set up in 48.

BTW, Mr. Marine, where do your kind train to be airborne? Oh yeah the Army.

AnticorRifling
06-15-2005, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by Dave
well that's off the ground in 18 hours, completely deployed and set up in 48.

BTW, Mr. Marine, where do your kind train to be airborne? Oh yeah the Army.

That's because if the Army had to go to Marine Corps Jump School they wouldn't survive :cool:

Edaarin
06-15-2005, 11:13 PM
Incentives for two some million college students to enlist: 0.

Hmm...$60,000 job or get shot at...

Fengus
06-16-2005, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Fengus
Dave: Being in the military for "patriotic" reasons is group mind bullshit they sell you in bootcamp.

Seems you don't know to much about what they "sell" you in bootcamp.


Mr Harvard grad putting chinese children to work to make you some plastic noise makers for your kids birthday party is doing far more to further the american way than a bunch of semi-literate poor folk who's only option in life is to use their very life as value in barter for the military.

You would be surprised how many "college" grads are in the military.


To be fair I guess I should have mentioned I already served my country and then got the hell out. I've been thru all of that and now laugh at fools (and myself) for wasting 4-6+ years of their life.

I know how the military works and most of the guys with college degrees in the enlisted ranks were either wannabe officers or had worthless degrees. And those guys were dumb because very few were raised to officer status, while I knew tons of guys that went straight to OCS (or their prep school). Since pretty much everyone I trained with were highly intelligent many did get oppurtunities to become an officer. The military prefer to train you themselves that way you are indebted to them longer and far more likely to be "brainwashed" into a life long soldier.


Of course I was never in any threat of being killed myself, I was in the Navy and additionally I worked in the Nuke plants, you'd have to kill a whole lotta other idiots before I would be in danger. The only reason I joined was because it sounds like a good deal then, I would be E3 right out of bootcamp, E4 after completing my A-School (3 months), and would get a sign on bonus of about $6k after I completed all my training (another year worth after my A-School). Additionally I could reenlist for 2 more and get a $30k bonus. This was a lousy deal even considering all of that, the fast rank bumps the hazard pay and the bonuses I would make only about $16k average over the 6yr term.
Now consider once I got my CS degree I could start at a code crunching job for at least 40k in a non-rich area, or make 60k+ in the Bay area for instance, thats to start. Instead I took a pay cut to work in games and started at 45k, and have gotten at least a 10% increase per year. Compare that to the military where the increases were below inflation every year I was in.
And that is just my case, it would be difficult to find a degree program that you cannot earn more starting out than in the military.

The military of today is for the poor and those without other options, as sad as that is, thats it. If you have any intention or desire to go to school even a lame two year Technology degree the military is a waste of your life.

Personally, I think its should be a duty of *EVERYONE* to serve a couple years right out of high school. Many other countries do this and there isn't this mentality of which I speak that the military is for the poor and those without any options (duhh, money).

06-16-2005, 01:12 AM
Okay, Mr. Navy boy, to assume that the navy is the same as any other branch of the military is a stretch. You were obviously jaded in your job, prolly a dirtbag at that. Did you get passed over for going to OCS a few times to many?

There was an interesting story in the Army Times today which points at what seems to be the REAL problem with recruiting right now. Less minorities joining up.

As to the "money" you make.
My year in Iraq will bank me nearly 40k and I don't have to pay taxes.

I wont get into the type of jobs that the Army has for enlisted personnel, since I hold a job that only navy officers can do.

Doughboy
06-16-2005, 02:48 AM
I gotta send me a shout out to Antipanties... PHUCK JARHEADS! That is all.

Fengus
06-16-2005, 02:52 AM
I did my job and got 4.0s, but I quickly realized that pretty much everyone in the military were dumbasses both by birth and doubly because they chose to stay. Thats from my perspective, if you have no other goals in life than to listen to someone else tell you what to do, then military is for you.

I had no desire to apply for an officer program, but many of my friends did, and only a small percentage of them were *not* minorities. This is awsome in my opinion, because I wouldn't need that sort of oppurtunity (and didn't want to be further indebted for many more years of service), when I got out I had money thrown at me to get a degree, being an intelligent driven white male.


Anyway do support your $40k statement, I don't believe it.

06-16-2005, 09:26 AM
Seriously though, how is 40k a lot? That is a whole boat of nothing as far as pay is concerned. I wouldn't wake up to go to work for $40,000 a year as that could support nothing. Now, that's not saying I will fight a deployment if it should happen. On the contrary, I'll go and do my job just as I signed up for, but to look forward to that when I could be making double that for less work and less stress? That is where the problem with the military is. Too much work and not enough compensation.

Take for instance Tricare. Its disgusting. A physician's aid can over ride a doctor's diagnosis and recommended treatment. You need to jump through hoops just to see a real doctor. Thanks, but no thanks! Military health care is awful and I'd hard pressed to use it when I have state benifits from my job.

The military is a great community, but compared to what you can make yourself outside of it, I'm not entirely surprised people are not considering the military as a career.

- Arkans

DeV
06-16-2005, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Dave
There was an interesting story in the Army Times today which points at what seems to be the REAL problem with recruiting right now. Less minorities joining up.
1. Unpopularity of the war and current administration in the minority communities.
2. Recruiters are reaching out to these communities under the guise of providing opportunities that just aren't there once they(minorities) return to civilian life.
3. Their marketing/ad campaigns need to start targeting parents as well as potential recruits if they want to see a jump in recruitment rates.