Sharing the wealth - G8 forgives debts of 18 countries

[Gan]

LONDON, England -- Finance ministers from the world's wealthiest nations have agreed to a historic accord to cancel up to $55 billion worth of debt owed by the world's poorest nations.

The Group of Eight (G8) ministers -- meeting for a second day Saturday in London -- backed a deal that calls for an immediate scrapping of 100 percent of the debt owed by 18 countries.

Those countries -- many in sub-Saharan Africa -- owe about $40 billion to the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and the African Development Bank.

The G8 ministers also said 20 other countries could be eligible for debt relief if they meet targets for good governance and tackling corruption -- bringing the total package to more than $55 billion.


CNN article:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/06/11/uk.g8.africa/index.html

[Miss X]

:)

At last.

I want my tax dollars that went to these countries back.

[Miss X]

You're all heart Dave. Go tell that to the thousands of starving children.

[longshot]

I would be okay with the debt relief if they handed over control of all their natural resources.

Originally posted by Miss X
You're all heart Dave. Go tell that to the thousands of starving children.

If the money that we have sent to these countries actually went to feed the starving children, I might not feel the same way.

[longshot]

Originally posted by Miss X
You're all heart Dave. Go tell that to the thousands of starving children.

It's not my problem.

In the words of Sam Kinnison,

"Move where THE FUCKING FOOD IS! See this? This is sand! Yeah, it's sand. You know what it will be in 100 years? FUCKING SAND!!"

[Miss X]

Therein lies the root of the worlds problems. If it’s not in our back garden, it’s not our problem.

[longshot]

I don't remember a great American railroad panned from Egypt to Cape Town.

Let's be careful about what "our" backyard means...

[Gan]

I wonder if this will be remembered during the next protests/riots that usually accompany meetings of the G8/IMF/World Bank.

Doubtful...

[Mistomeer]

Originally posted by Dave
I want my tax dollars that went to these countries back.

Your tax dollars? Have you ever had a real job?

On another note...Tony is good for something. Maybe he isn't a complete liar.

[Edaarin]

Holy shit, I agree with Dave here.

[Tsa`ah]

If we're going with Dave's logic ... I want the tax dollars back for his training. While we're at it, I want the tax dollars back that went to give terrorist free education at US universities ... let's go further than that ... I want the tax refund for educating non-US nationionals.

Since we're not going to see any of that, it's a pretty useless point to bring to the table.

Absolving these debts will have no impact on Dave or anyone else. Why? Because these debts were likely to never be paid off to begin with ... blood and rocks you know.

[Mistomeer]

Even at that point, the whole, I want my taxes back argument doesn't really apply if you haven't paid shit for taxes. The US gives less than 1/2 of 1% to Africa each year, so you'd have to have been paying some serious taxes to even make such a claim.

[Makkah]

<<I want my tax dollars that went to these countries back. >>

I want you to get hit by a rifle butt and crack a front tooth which in turn makes you look like a fucking idiot.

Oh wait...

[Trinitis]

Not to say anyone is wrong or right in any of this..but...

0.5% of 55 billion = 275 million dollars. I'd happily accept a check for that :D

[Back]

Best news all year.

[longshot]

I disagree with Edine, because I think this "aid" and loans are effective ways to control countries that are very succeptible to turning hostile to our interests.

There is an excellent book on this. "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". I can't recommend this book enough.

There are important questions here...
How much do we have to bend over backwards for someone that continually fucks up?

Let's think of Africa as Stanley... how many chances should Africa, or any poor country that squanders aid and depends on our food have?

Why do we keep feeding these people?? If we stopped, then these issues of hunger would go away as equilibrium was returned. Harsh? Yes.

But, I shouldn't have to pay for dumb people's mistakes. Stop fucking, and move where there's food.

There are other ways to go about settling debt than just forgetting the whole thing. This whole "forgiveness" thing blows me away.

They have other means of payment. It isn't just about money. They have natural resources that they can give up. They can promise to vote the way we want them too in the UN. Maybe we can send our toxic waste there? Or they can build prisons for us? Yes, these ideas might seem outlandish, but let's get some return on our investment.

If they are economincally tied to the developed world, it's not such a bad thing. On their own it's only a matter of time before a hostile regime takes root. Then it's up to our clandestine agencies, or military action to take care of this. Oh, I know! Let's bring in Peacekeepers to protect people so they can give hungry women a can of beans to fuck them...

It's a shitty situation all around.

If this is Pauly telling Henry "Now I gotta turn my back on you" at the end of "Goodfellas", then I'm all for it. If you want to cancel debt, fine. But from this day forward, we owe you shit. Nothing. Don't ask us for another goddamn thing.

P.S. America never had an imperial crusade through Africa. Let the rightoues Brits and proud Frogs handle this one. I think more than enough Americans have died cleaning up French colonialism.


edited for grammar



[Edited on 6-12-2005 by longshot]

[DeV]

Originally posted by Mistomeer
Even at that point, the whole, I want my taxes back argument doesn't really apply if you haven't paid shit for taxes. Yeah...

It'd at least have more of an impact coming from someone who is actually, well you know, very wealthy.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by DeV
Yeah...

It'd at least have more of an impact coming from someone who is actually, well you know, very wealthy.

Or has been paying taxes for a few decades or so ... while in a job that isn't attached to the tax payer tit.

[4a6c1]

omfg!! SoKorCOMMY > Amerika88!! w/o debt.

omfg!! ToomuchCOFFEEEE.

But we are all gonna die by nukes. Just letting you know. And Starbucks is GOD. Just letting you know.

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

Originally posted by DeV
Yeah...

It'd at least have more of an impact coming from someone who is actually, well you know, very wealthy.

Or has been paying taxes for a few decades or so ... while in a job that isn't attached to the tax payer tit.

Oh okay, because I work in a government job it makes the money I pay less meaningful? I see now. I still pay taxes. And considering I make substantially less money than most people here every penny i pay to some warlord who is slaughtering the people in his country is a dollar I would like back.

It is interesting though, you bitch about money being spent in Iraq, yet it is okay for us to spend it there?

I hope "Sally" doesn't embezzle it all like in that one South Park episode a while back. That one really bothered me.

And what could would the world do getting rid of the awesome bunch of fun-to-be-around Starvin' Marvins? Terrible.

[Mistomeer]

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

Originally posted by DeV
Yeah...

It'd at least have more of an impact coming from someone who is actually, well you know, very wealthy.

Or has been paying taxes for a few decades or so ... while in a job that isn't attached to the tax payer tit.

Oh okay, because I work in a government job it makes the money I pay less meaningful? I see now. I still pay taxes. And considering I make substantially less money than most people here every penny i pay to some warlord who is slaughtering the people in his country is a dollar I would like back.

You've had that job for what, less than a year? Before that you worked part time? Given the miniscule amount that actually goes to Africa combined with the relatively tiny amount you've paid in taxes translates to a few dollars.

Have you even filed for taxes on your own before, or did your parents claim you until you joined the Army?

I have worked full time since I was 17, and part time for two years before that.
I did so so I could put myself through school.
I have been in the army for a year now.
I have filed my own taxes since I was 18.
I lived on my own since I was 19.

Anything else you assume about me that needs to be corrected?

[Edited on 6-12-2005 by Dave]

[xtc]

This isn't the first time that the G-8 has forgiven the debt of these third world nations. Yes we will pay for it with our tax dollars. If America/England/Canada country forgives a debt where do you think America/England/Canada gets that money?

If any of these nations would good governance and had anything coming close to capitalist ambition I wouldn't mind as much. Instead they are run either by corrupt dictators or incompetent regimes, either way they are a mess. Next time Bono wants nations to increase foreign aid, he should donate 80% of his money first or keep his fat trap shut.

Forgiving these nations debts and giving them more money is akin to giving a crack addict more money who already owes you a $500.

[Mistomeer]

Nah, but it still adds up to jackshit of your money went to Africa, regardless. Hell, I'll give you the $5 back if you STFU about your precious tax money going to Africa. Give me an address, I'll drop it in the mail.

Edited to add:
And $5 is surely overstating it. You're acting high and mighty over an amount of money that is miniscule. For the amount of your tax dollars that went to Africa, a person probably couldn't buy a pack of gum.

[Edited on 6-12-2005 by Mistomeer]

Its the principle of it as XTC showed well.

[Mistomeer]

Originally posted by Dave
Its the principle of it as XTC showed well.

Then argue the principle of it rather than getting high and mighty about tiny bits of money.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by xtc
Next time Bono wants nations to increase foreign aid, he should donate 80% of his money first or keep his fat trap shut.a) He's not fat.
b) What makes you think he doesn't?

[Chadj]

I don't know exactly where Bono donates his money, or how much, but I do know he donates a large portion of it. Which is a hell of a lot more than most people. I may think he's a self rightous prick, but I do know that he isn't a hypocrit about that stuff.

Off topic, I just saw a pic of Kranar for the first time.

Back on topic, would you be bitching if the national debt of the US were abolished?

It wont be. We don't owe money to any countries except ourselves.

[Shalla]

I think it's a good thing, but these countries should enforce tougher laws and be more warey of their corrupt officials.

[Apotheosis]

I don't know how the money that goes to those countries is processed, but it should come with alot more strings attached then it does.

Oh, and somehow I think our economy benefits when these types of countries suffer.. cheap labor and reduced competition in the world market spring to mind.

[Edited on 6-12-2005 by Yswithe]

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Miss X
You're all heart Dave. Go tell that to the thousands of starving children.

Why are they starving if we are giving them money?

[4a6c1]

Originally posted by Dave
It wont be. We don't owe money to any countries except ourselves.

We owe other things though. Resources, services, and alliances.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Dave
I have worked full time since I was 17, and part time for two years before that.
I did so so I could put myself through school.
I have been in the army for a year now.
I have filed my own taxes since I was 18.
I lived on my own since I was 19.

Anything else you assume about me that needs to be corrected?

[Edited on 6-12-2005 by Dave]

So if I mail you a buck twenty you'll shut the fuck up?

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
So if I mail you a buck twenty you'll shut the fuck up?

How much to shut you up about Iraq spending policies?

Just curious.

[Tsa`ah]

More than you'll be able to afford without forcing you into a cardboard box and relying on dog shit as your primary staple.

If that were ever to happen, you’d be fucked at the first rain. Not because of the hit your immune system would take, but because you’d never find your way out of the box.

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

Originally posted by Dave
I have worked full time since I was 17, and part time for two years before that.
I did so so I could put myself through school.
I have been in the army for a year now.
I have filed my own taxes since I was 18.
I lived on my own since I was 19.

Anything else you assume about me that needs to be corrected?

[Edited on 6-12-2005 by Dave]

So if I mail you a buck twenty you'll shut the fuck up?

You did well to answer your own question I think.




Originally posted by Tsa`ah
More than you'll be able to afford without forcing you into a cardboard box and relying on dog shit as your primary staple.

If that were ever to happen, you’d be fucked at the first rain. Not because of the hit your immune system would take, but because you’d never find your way out of the box.

Why expect me to do something you are unwilling to do yourself? Not talk about your views.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Nakiro

Originally posted by Miss X
You're all heart Dave. Go tell that to the thousands of starving children.

Why are they starving if we are giving them money?

Because the money that you give them in aid, is less than the money you take off them in debt repayments.

[Gan]

Originally posted by JihnasSpirit
omfg!! SoKorCOMMY > Amerika88!! w/o debt.

omfg!! ToomuchCOFFEEEE.

But we are all gonna die by nukes. Just letting you know. And Starbucks is GOD. Just letting you know.

Ok, that made me snort my soda through my nose. Thanks! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Nakiro

Originally posted by Miss X
You're all heart Dave. Go tell that to the thousands of starving children.

Why are they starving if we are giving them money?

Because the money that you give them in aid, is less than the money you take off them in debt repayments.

It might have been if they EVER PAID US BACK, but since they never intended to in the first place...

[Gan]

I have to agree with the stance that its money we'd likely not see anyways.

Its hard to say that I would endorse sending aid to these countries when there are so many things in our own country that could use the funds from my perspective. Yet if we were to take an isolationist stance then who would seek to end the violence and chaos that rules in places such as this. And with the advancements in technology - especially weapon technology - how long do we think that this chaos would just remain within its own borders and not effect those around it?

As we become a global economy and a global community then we will all need to partake in global aid and policing. True there are differences as to how a society and government should be run, but in the end everyon with an inkling of civility knows that genocide, anarchy, and oppressive dictatorship is NOT the way to exist.

Too bad we (collectively! not just the US) cant send whole countries/societies to Humanity 101 [school] and teach them how to co-exist with each other as well as with other countries and other religions in order to have a clue as to what could be ahead of them instead of walking through life backwards.

Seriously, we've tried buying them a clue. Whats next on the option menu?

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Dave

You did well to answer your own question I think.

I didn't answer my question, I answered Nakiro's. I didn't think you were that ignorant ... but the amazement over it has since dissipated.


Why expect me to do something you are unwilling to do yourself? Not talk about your views.

Who said I was unwilling? Nakiro just wouldn't be able to afford it. I however can afford to send you a buck twenty seeing as your entire contribution through taxation is probably less than the offered amount.

No Tsa'ah you answered your own question, let me put it this way


tsa'ah's question

(my response)

No its not enough, it will cost you..."More than you'll be able to afford without forcing you into a cardboard box and relying on dog shit as your primary staple.

If that were ever to happen, you’d be fucked at the first rain. Not because of the hit your immune system would take, but because you’d never find your way out of the box."


You seem to have needed a visual.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Backlash
Best news all year.

Uhhhh..... No.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Mistomeer
You've had that job for what, less than a year? Before that you worked part time? Given the miniscule amount that actually goes to Africa combined with the relatively tiny amount you've paid in taxes translates to a few dollars.

Have you even filed for taxes on your own before, or did your parents claim you until you joined the Army?

It's a thing called principle.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Dave
It wont be. We don't owe money to any countries except ourselves.

Although we agree of foreign debt forgiveness, 41% of the US is owned by foreign interests.

http://www.house.gov/tanner/foreignholdings.htm

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Nakiro

Originally posted by Miss X
You're all heart Dave. Go tell that to the thousands of starving children.

Why are they starving if we are giving them money?

Because the money that you give them in aid, is less than the money you take off them in debt repayments.

It might have been if they EVER PAID US BACK, but since they never intended to in the first place...

You know, its arguments like yours and people like you that make me want to say "yeah fuck you...take all your fellow countrymen and women and pack yourselves up in your fabulous little country and give nothing, and take nothing"

Only you couldnt do that. Because the great USA cant survive without the imports (shit we just fought a war over one of them) and as much as the likes of you would have us believe, the US depends on the rest of the world just a tad more than you will admit to.

Having said all that, as quickly as the likes of you may make me think of saying that, a conversation I had with someone earlier tells me it's not needed.

Someone was concerned that people will think that the way you go on, is representative of people in the army.
I pointed out that you are only representative of morons.

[xtc]

As long as you are giving me $5 for my personal share of debt forgiveness. (I am not sure how you arrived at this figure)Please give me $5 for each time in the past we have restructured this debt to make it easier to pay, reduced the interest, and forgiven large portions of it in the past.

Professor Rogoff who was a Professor of Economics at Harvard and worked for the IMF said the main reason that these countries can't repay this debt is they horribly mismanage their economies.

The problem is this; we have forgiven large portions of foreign debt in the past and done this more than once. Each time these HIC's (Highly Indebted Countries) promise they will get their act together and manage their economy better. 20 years later they are crying the same tune. Many people here are too young to know this has happened before.

These countries are welfare, crack addicts. We will be having this conversation again in 10 years or less.

If you want to feed starving children give to UNICEF or Oxfam.




[Edited on 6-13-2005 by xtc]

[Tsa`ah]

Except that you're in Canada and the US. As a citizen of Canada, you need to ask a fellow Canadian and not me for your 5 bucks.

Dave wants his tax dollars back, I offered to pony up his contribution of a buck twenty. He seems to think he's entitled to a larger sum. I beg to differ.

That's his point of contention ... his tax contribution. I'm willing to bet he's likely entitled to zilch since he's not likely to have earned over 30 grand in any given year.

You would be wrong again Tsa'ah, but I find it more interesting how you are acting. You a liberal who thinks everyone should be equal. Are trying to degrade somebody because he does not make as much money as you? That is the exact reason why your type should not be in charge.

[Tsa`ah]

I'm not degrading you at all Dave. I'm pointing out facts.

I'm not demanding my money back, no matter how great or insignificant the sum.

You just have this notion in your head that you are owed something, when in fact ... the amount is trivial and not worth the time pursuing.

I've been paying taxes for the better part of 16 years. Over half of that time has been in excess of 50k, One quarter in the 85-100 range. My total contribution to such foreign aid is probably less than 500 bucks. How old are you? How long have you been working and paying taxes? You don't have a degree and you expect me to buy that you've made over 30k, as young as you are, working at Wal-Mart?

I worked at walmart until I was 18
Sales is a nice thing when you have a commission and are good at your job. (not working at walmart that is)
Ive been paying taxes since I was 15, so 7 years. Granted as I said, not as much as you, and I am not really demanding my money back. I don't think we should have given these dictators money in the first place. Somalia is a perfect example of how great the aid we send these shit-backwards countries works. If it was up to me we would have taken care of all of the countries and cleaned them out of their corruption so that the people there can prosper as we do. Alas, it is not to be.

I really do hope that us forging the debt "again" will change things over there. Sadly it wont, so why waste our money that can go towards better things domestically than to them.

Edit to add: as I said before, it is the principle of it all.

[Edited on 6-13-2005 by Dave]

[Gan]

On a positive note:

Live 8, the performing world's effort to aid Africa and other third world countries, will be hosting numerous bands but none more important that noted below:

As reported by CNN:

LONDON, England (Reuters) -- Four members of seminal British rock band Pink Floyd will play together for the first time in 24 years at London's Live 8 charity concert for Africa on July 2, publicists for the event said on Sunday.

Guitarist David Gilmour, drummer Nick Mason and keyboard player Richard Wright will be on stage with bassist Roger Waters for their first public performance since they played at London's Earls Court in 1981.

That will be as good to see as the Eagles first reunion event comemorating their "Hell Freezes Over Tour". I truly wish I was going to be in the UK when this goes down.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/Music/06/12/pink.floyd.reut/index.html

[Hulkein]

It's ashame they're gonna be playing in Europe (I think) instead of in Philly.

I'd love to see Pink Floyd live. There will be some good bands there anyway.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Dave
Somalia is a perfect example of how great the aid we send these shit-backwards countries works. Kinda makes you wonder why a country would let a shit-backwards country borrow millions only to fund a corrupt government; meanwhile their people starve.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Except that you're in Canada and the US. As a citizen of Canada, you need to ask a fellow Canadian and not me for your 5 bucks.

Dave wants his tax dollars back, I offered to pony up his contribution of a buck twenty. He seems to think he's entitled to a larger sum. I beg to differ.

That's his point of contention ... his tax contribution. I'm willing to bet he's likely entitled to zilch since he's not likely to have earned over 30 grand in any given year.

I worked several years in the US and paid taxes. So I will u2u with my address for the cheque:grin:

[Gan]

Tsa'ah does your offer extend to those who have been working for almost (damn, it will be 20 years this year :le crie: )???

Strange thing is my earning history mirrors yours pretty closely. Thats skeery. I can send you an invoice if you like. :lol: And I accept paypal so you dont have to cut me a check... :whistle:

[Edited on 6-13-2005 by Ganalon]

[Mistomeer]

Do any of you grasp that the amount going to Africa is less than .4%? .4% of $1,000,000 is $4000 and I doubt anyone here has paid $1 million in taxes. It's a pretty dumb argument to make. Given the amount of government waste, it's hard to believe asking for a tiny amount of aid money back is at the top of anyone's list.

If you're going to argue the principle, then argue the principle.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that despite the corruption in Africa, some of the money goes where its needed. If you give nothing, then nothing makes it. The US should do a better job ensuring the aid dollars they give go where they're needed, but they don't. That's as much the fault of the US government as it is Africa's.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
More than you'll be able to afford without forcing you into a cardboard box and relying on dog shit as your primary staple.

If that were ever to happen, you’d be fucked at the first rain. Not because of the hit your immune system would take, but because you’d never find your way out of the box.

Give me an amount.

An no, I'm not interested into moving into your place. Thanks for the offer though.

[Edited on 6-13-2005 by Nakiro]

Originally posted by Mistomeer
Do any of you grasp that the amount going to Africa is less than .4%? .4% of $1,000,000 is $4000 and I doubt anyone here has paid $1 million in taxes. It's a pretty dumb argument to make. Given the amount of government waste, it's hard to believe asking for a tiny amount of aid money back is at the top of anyone's list.

If you're going to argue the principle, then argue the principle.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that despite the corruption in Africa, some of the money goes where its needed. If you give nothing, then nothing makes it. The US should do a better job ensuring the aid dollars they give go where they're needed, but they don't. That's as much the fault of the US government as it is Africa's.

The only way to do that is military action
As soon as we start to lose american lives you all will cry wolf and we will have to get out.

[Gan]

Sometimes it makes you wonder if the Romans had it right eh?

It does.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Dave


The US should do a better job ensuring the aid dollars they give go where they're needed, but they don't. That's as much the fault of the US government as it is Africa's.

The only way to do that is military action
As soon as we start to lose american lives you all will cry wolf and we will have to get out.

Little over 1700 now. Not counting those only injured/crippled.

[Edited on 6-13-2005 by Wezas]

[xtc]

Originally posted by Mistomeer
Do any of you grasp that the amount going to Africa is less than .4%? .4% of $1,000,000 is $4000 and I doubt anyone here has paid $1 million in taxes. It's a pretty dumb argument to make. Given the amount of government waste, it's hard to believe asking for a tiny amount of aid money back is at the top of anyone's list.

If you're going to argue the principle, then argue the principle.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that despite the corruption in Africa, some of the money goes where its needed. If you give nothing, then nothing makes it. The US should do a better job ensuring the aid dollars they give go where they're needed, but they don't. That's as much the fault of the US government as it is Africa's.

The amount is $50 000 000 000, that is $50 Billion. How much is fifty billion dollars? Well a billion is a thousand million. A billion one dollar bills laid end to end would circumnavigate the globe 4 times. So fifty billion would circumnavigate the globe 200 times. That is a lot of money.

Any Government expense divided among its citizens seems small. The amount of debt held by the public in the US is $4,581,670,612,952.20 (as of June 10), divide that by the number of citizens 296,355,838 (as of June 13) equals a debt of $15, 460 for every man , woman and child in America. Whatever the amount of debt forgiveness is per citizen you need to add the amount you already owe.

•http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

•http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpdodt.htm

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by Dave


The US should do a better job ensuring the aid dollars they give go where they're needed, but they don't. That's as much the fault of the US government as it is Africa's.

The only way to do that is military action
As soon as we start to lose american lives you all will cry wolf and we will have to get out.

Little over 1700 now. Not counting those only injured/crippled.

[Edited on 6-13-2005 by Wezas]


yep, and of the some 400,000 soldiers that have been deployed there total
0.425%, I like my odds.


Edit: then again lets take out the some 500-600 non combat fatalities out of that number as well.

My unit lost only one person over there and he was lost because of a dear john letter from his wife.

[Edited on 6-13-2005 by Dave]

[Wezas]

Why are you taking out non-combat fatalities?

Just imagine of the butt of the rifle missed your tooth and hit something more vital.

Stupidity plays a part as well. Like putting your Carbine in your mouth, turning it on burst, and pulling the trigger.

[Mistomeer]

Originally posted by xtc


The amount is $50 000 000 000, that is $50 Billion.

If you're gonna quote numbers as fact, get the numbers right.
"Those countries -- many in sub-Saharan Africa -- owe about $40 billion to the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and the African Development Bank."
That's not even $50 bil of US taxpayer money.


How much is fifty billion dollars? Well a billion is a thousand million. A billion one dollar bills laid end to end would circumnavigate the globe 4 times. So fifty billion would circumnavigate the globe 200 times. That is a lot of money.

Relative to who? You keep talking like you forked over the $40 billion yourself. Again, if your share of that money is $1, and you're bitching about that, you're just sad.


Any Government expense divided among its citizens seems small. The amount of debt held by the public in the US is $4,581,670,612,952.20 (as of June 10), divide that by the number of citizens 296,355,838 (as of June 13) equals a debt of $15, 460 for every man , woman and child in America.

$15,460 is alot of money to alot of those people. Again, $40 billion spread across the G8 isn't that much whereas the US debt is alot of fucking money.

If you want to talk about money, and how $40 billion goes a long way, that's cool, but don't try to argue that having pitched in your $1 you feel ripped off. There certainly wasn't any bitching when the government failed to cut you a check for the interest that's been paid on the loans. I never knew that part of the loan agreement included a refund check to taxpayers. Even if Africa had paid the entire portion back to the IMF, World Bank, etc, it wouldn't have wound up in your pocket.

If you want to get that technical, I'm sure Africa would gladly repay the entire debt in exchange for the rest of the world paying them back for all the resources they've stolen from them over the years.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by xtc
I worked several years in the US and paid taxes. So I will u2u with my address for the cheque:grin:

I'll send you something, don't count on a check though. Maybe Nakiro's dinner.

The fact that you have taken up Canadian citizenry sort of disqualifies you from any monetary reimbursement (5 bucks) I offered Dave.


Originally posted by Ganalon
Tsa'ah does your offer extend to those who have been working for almost (damn, it will be 20 years this year :le crie: )???

Strange thing is my earning history mirrors yours pretty closely. Thats skeery. I can send you an invoice if you like. :lol: And I accept paypal so you dont have to cut me a check... :whistle:

[Edited on 6-13-2005 by Ganalon]

I'm no cash cow or debt relief fund. The offer was extended to Dave simply to point out how insignificant his contribution was, and also because he felt he should have that cash returned ... that was his complaint.

Now, had Dave been working for the better part of a decade earning above the poverty line, I would have been more empathetic to his grievance.


Originally posted by Nakiro
Give me an amount.

An no, I'm not interested into moving into your place. Thanks for the offer though.


Considering we went from a surplus to a deficit, we're talking my tax contributions from the events prior to 2001. Do you think you can afford to reimburse even half of 300 grand, let alone a potential 600 grand. That's just my income ... care to take a stab at the joint income?

As per moving in with me, please. The last thing I would want are assault charges for doing the general public a favor. The family is fine the way it is ... "box" included. Though I did get a little lost in the woods last weekend while mushroom hunting.

[Back]

Originally posted by Mistomeer
$15,460 is alot of money to alot of those people.

Wouldn’t it be nice to get a check like that at the end of the year from Uncle Sam? And to be generous here, AFTER paying taxes?

People work for the nation. The nation should work for the people.

[Gan]

"And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."

"My fellow citizens of the world, ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man."

John F. Kennedy.
Inaugral Address


-Damn, now I'm quoting Democrats. :hippie:

[Back]

So by your post I take it that you are ok with every man, woman and child in America owing 15k to the rest of the world (unless its the upper 2%) and not want any surplus of the GNP you help this country make.

[Fengus]

Originally posted by Dave
I want my tax dollars that went to these countries back.

That was paid forward with the blood of slaves in the cotton field of the south.

[Gan]

I'm ok with the debt. It doesnt bother me, doesnt effect the way I save, trade, consume, or live. There will always be a finite amount of resources on this earth, and posession of them will fluctuate back and forth as long as there are people with needs and people with resources to barter with.

As far as my share of the surplus and wanting it or not? Of course I want whats rightfully mine that I earn through my efforts of labor. Do I want more than what I earn? No. Do I contribute to charities with the money I earn to help out my fellow man? Yes.

Does this answer your question?

[Gan]

Yea the south was wicked for owning slaves. Good thing the North got wise and decided to set all of theirs free.

[Back]

Originally posted by Ganalon
I'm ok with the debt. It doesnt bother me, doesnt effect the way I save, trade, consume, or live. There will always be a finite amount of resources on this earth, and posession of them will fluctuate back and forth as long as there are people with needs and people with resources to barter with.

As far as my share of the surplus and wanting it or not? Of course I want whats rightfully mine that I earn through my efforts of labor. Do I want more than what I earn? No. Do I contribute to charities with the money I earn to help out my fellow man? Yes.

Does this answer your question?

Yeah. And my previous post, about the GNP... that was a little over the top as that includes goods and services.

Really what I was trying to get at was, a nation’s natural resources should really support the people of that nation. Raw materials, energy, to help the people produce the goods and services that can be bartered with other nations.

Ultimately it should work on a global scale with the global people putting the resources towards more exploration for places to live and more resources ad infinitum.

But back here on Earth... I don’t claim to know economics past my own checking account, so I just like to throw ideas out. Venezuala does this and now it looks like Bolivia is close.

Originally posted by Fengus

Originally posted by Dave
I want my tax dollars that went to these countries back.

That was paid forward with the blood of slaves in the cotton field of the south.

Wow, i didnt own slaves, My family didnt own slaves. So let somebody else pay for it.

[Warriorbird]

Eh. Mine did. I tend to agree with Dave with it not making a difference to current situations, even if it disagree in that I think funding for Africa isn't as bad as some other places. A lot of those loans were forced on those countries.

I'd prefer my money back for sending aid and weapons to a lot of other countries, however, but I somehow doubt it is going to happen.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Mistomeer
1. If you're gonna quote numbers as fact, get the numbers right.
"Those countries -- many in sub-Saharan Africa -- owe about $40 billion to the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and the African Development Bank."
That's not even $50 bil of US taxpayer money.

2.Relative to who? You keep talking like you forked over the $40 billion yourself. Again, if your share of that money is $1, and you're bitching about that, you're just sad.

3.$15,460 is alot of money to alot of those people. Again, $40 billion spread across the G8 isn't that much whereas the US debt is alot of fucking money.

4.If you want to talk about money, and how $40 billion goes a long way, that's cool, but don't try to argue that having pitched in your $1 you feel ripped off. There certainly wasn't any bitching when the government failed to cut you a check for the interest that's been paid on the loans. I never knew that part of the loan agreement included a refund check to taxpayers. Even if Africa had paid the entire portion back to the IMF, World Bank, etc, it wouldn't have wound up in your pocket.

5.If you want to get that technical, I'm sure Africa would gladly repay the entire debt in exchange for the rest of the world paying them back for all the resources they've stolen from them over the years.


1. The article says the total amount being forgiven is close to $55 Billion, of which $40 Billion is in sub Sahara Africa. The total is $55 Billion, you are correct that my number was incorrect, I was short $5 Billion.

“bringing the total package to more than $55 billion”

2. $40 Billion is a lot of money period, if you read my first post you will see my argument was one of principal and sense.

3. I was simply personalising the context of the debt. Whatever one’s personal portion is, you need to add that to your personal portion of the Government debt. I was pointing out how our Government's fiscal mismanagement already costs each American $15K and no one is forgiving the US debt.

4. $40 Billion is a lot of money period as I have pointed out. The Governments of the G-8 are being very magnanimous with their citizen’s money once again. That was my point, the money is yours, mine, our parents, our friends, our co-workers regardless of what each individual amount comes to. Once again the Government is being generous with our money as they pat themselves on the back.

5. If African citizens have a bone to pick regarding the mismanagement of their natural resources, they need to speak with their corrupt leaders who have been robbing them blind for years. That is where the fault lays.

[Warriorbird]

Well yeah, wonder why there's so many rebellions there? The average citizen there can't do jack, however.

[DeV]

Originally posted by xtc
5. If African citizens have a bone to pick regarding the mismanagement of their natural resources, they need to speak with their corrupt leaders who have been robbing them blind for years. That is where the fault lays. Because freedom of speech and open forums with which to question and challenge the corruption of their government is a practical solution for them. :rolleyes:

[xtc]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by xtc
5. If African citizens have a bone to pick regarding the mismanagement of their natural resources, they need to speak with their corrupt leaders who have been robbing them blind for years. That is where the fault lays. Because freedom of speech and open forums with which to question and challenge the corruption of their government is a practical solution for them. :rolleyes:

Many countries in Africa have and are moving towards a free press and freedom of speech. Uganda, Kenya, South Africa, Egypt etc.

My point was that in African countries where natural resources have been over used or sold the blame lays with their corrupt Governments and leaders.

[Parkbandit]

I think I agree with Longshot and Sam Kinnison.

[DeV]

Originally posted by xtc
Many countries in Africa have and are moving towards a free press and freedom of speech. Uganda, Kenya, South Africa, Egypt etc. Until recently, very few nations in Africa were able to sustain Democratic governments which seem to be spreading, but are still quite largely in the minority. And even those countries have a long way to go before they can fully carry out the Democratic process, free speech and all.


My point was that in African countries where natural resources have been over used or sold the blame lays with their corrupt Governments and leaders. Granted, your point was not lost.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Backlash
So by your post I take it that you are ok with every man, woman and child in America owing 15k to the rest of the world (unless its the upper 2%) and not want any surplus of the GNP you help this country make. Dude, they clearly need it more than we do. It's pretty sucky for someone to starve to death because of where they were born. Charity without justice isn't going to fix the situation, but it's a whole lot better than neither.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

Originally posted by xtc
I worked several years in the US and paid taxes. So I will u2u with my address for the cheque:grin:

I'll send you something, don't count on a check though. Maybe Nakiro's dinner.

The fact that you have taken up Canadian citizenry sort of disqualifies you from any monetary reimbursement (5 bucks) I offered Dave.



I will take a pass on Nakiro's dinner thanks.

I may have Canadian citizenship but I have never relinquished my U.S. citizenship and I have paid taxes in the U.S. so pony up the cash Tsa'ah, or perhaps you can just give me a place to stay next time I come to Iowa or Illinois or wherever it is you are. :lol:

As far as my Canadian portion is concerned maybe I can get my money back from Kranar.

[Mistomeer]

Originally posted by xtc


1. The article says the total amount being forgiven is close to $55 Billion, of which $40 Billion is in sub Sahara Africa. The total is $55 Billion, you are correct that my number was incorrect, I was short $5 Billion.

“bringing the total package to more than $55 billion”

Quote it right. $40bil is all that's been forgiven. There's the potential for another $15bil "bringing the total package to more than $55 billion."


2. $40 Billion is a lot of money period, if you read my first post you will see my argument was one of principal and sense.

It's alot, but we're not even talking about $40 billion, actually. We're talking about Dave's contribution to that $40 billion which is jackshit.


4. $40 Billion is a lot of money period as I have pointed out. The Governments of the G-8 are being very magnanimous with their citizen’s money once again. That was my point, the money is yours, mine, our parents, our friends, our co-workers regardless of what each individual amount comes to. Once again the Government is being generous with our money as they pat themselves on the back.

I don't know about the Canadian government, but the US government is generous with tax money to all sorts of less charitable causes. Sure, bitch about good intentions and let the US government slide on Haliburton?


5. If African citizens have a bone to pick regarding the mismanagement of their natural resources, they need to speak with their corrupt leaders who have been robbing them blind for years. That is where the fault lays.
Read a history book.

We are not talking about my contribution, we are talking about the 55billion of wasted dollars that we are forgiving. Money that should be repaid and returned to the economies of the countries that LOANED it in the first place.

[Skirmisher]

Dave, you know that the US govt will never do something it really does not want to.

If they are forgiving the loans it is because they think it will save them money in the long run.

Don't think any good deed is ever done without weighing all the variables.

[Gan]

Here's some food for thought regarding loaning nations money, forgiving debts, and how the US plays into this. In fact, its one of the largest and earliest examples where the US invested into foreign nations for more than just a "Haliburton" investment.

MARSHALL PLAN - POST WAR RECONSTRUCTION OF EUROPE AFTER WWII.
The Marshall Plan, known officially following its enactment as the European Recovery Program (ERP), was the main plan of the United States for the reconstruction of Europe following World War II. The initiative was named for United States Secretary of State George Marshall.

Between 1948 and 1951, the United States contributed more than $13 billion (equivalent to nearly $100 billion in 2005 when adjusted for inflation) of economic and technical assistance toward the recovery of 16 European countries which had joined in the Organization for European Economic Cooperation (OEEC, forerunner to today's OECD) in response to Marshall's call for a joint scheme for European reconstruction.

EFFECT OF THE MARSHALL PLAN:
The effects of the Marshall Plan were surprising to even its most optimistic of supporters. The years 1948 to 1952 saw the fastest period of growth in European history. Industrial Production increased by 35%. Agriculture had substantially surpassed pre-war levels. The poverty and starvation of the immediate post-war years disappeared and Western Europe embarked upon an unprecedented two decades of growth that saw standards of living increase dramatically. The communist threat to western Europe was greatly reduced as throughout the region the communist parties faded in popularity.

The plan was thus implemented by the states of Western Europe acting in concert. This cooperation gave important impetus to the formation in the west of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and later to the European Economic Community and today's European Union.

The free trade between the nations involved in the plan led to the introduction of the modern international system of finance with the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade.

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II

_______________________________________________

Additionally, during this research I also compared the post war occupation of Japan and its reconstruction. It seems we did not directly export funds to Japan in as much as we sent thousands of troops in, established basic human services/aid, law and order, disarmament of war resources, etc. The estimated costs of the establishment of food resources was $1 million a day (in 1947 dollars).

Does this scenario ring a bell with anyone? And please consider that I'm not comparing how we got there, but how we left there and where Japan is today.

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupied_Japan_Post_WWII

[Edited on 6-15-2005 by Ganalon]

[xtc]

Originally posted by Mistomeer
1.Quote it right. $40bil is all that's been forgiven. There's the potential for another $15bil "bringing the total package to more than $55 billion."



2. $40 Billion is a lot of money period, if you read my first post you will see my argument was one of principal and sense.

It's alot, but we're not even talking about $40 billion, actually. We're talking about Dave's contribution to that $40 billion which is jackshit.


4. $40 Billion is a lot of money period as I have pointed out. The Governments of the G-8 are being very magnanimous with their citizen’s money once again. That was my point, the money is yours, mine, our parents, our friends, our co-workers regardless of what each individual amount comes to. Once again the Government is being generous with our money as they pat themselves on the back.

I don't know about the Canadian government, but the US government is generous with tax money to all sorts of less charitable causes. Sure, bitch about good intentions and let the US government slide on Haliburton?


5. If African citizens have a bone to pick regarding the mismanagement of their natural resources, they need to speak with their corrupt leaders who have been robbing them blind for years. That is where the fault lays.
Read a history book.

1.Semantics, as stated it will reach $55 Billion if they meet targets.

2. I was talking about the total compensation, if you were talking about Dave’s contribution take that up with Dave.

3. Making bad deals at the expense of the tax payer in the past isn’t a reason to continue to do so in the future.

5. I don’t need to read a history book, most of my father’s family was born and raised in Africa. My Grandfather had businesses in several African countries. Africa owes my family a small fortune in money we will never see. Before chastising Colonialists for developing African nations natural resources, look at how much money they invested in infrastructure (roads, clean drinking water, government, industry, power plants etc) If you look at the Dictators of African nations over the past 20-30 years you will see they are the ones who raped the natural resources without care for the environment or their citizens

[Warriorbird]

Eh. The Colonialists paved the way for that nonsense. You can't solely pin it on dictators. And yes, some of my family was involved in business there as well.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Eh. The Colonialists paved the way for that nonsense. You can't solely pin it on dictators. And yes, some of my family was involved in business there as well.

I have been to Uganda and Kenya a few times. The likes of Milton Obote and Idi Amin have ruined Uganda. It was a beautiful, prosperous place.

Dictators from one end of Africa to other have raped and ruined it. At least Colonialists had standards in place.

[Warriorbird]

Have you been to Ethiopia/Eritrea?

[xtc]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Have you been to Ethiopia/Eritrea?


Last time I was there I had a short trip to Ethopia, I also visited Rwanda. I spent most of my time in Uganda and Kenya however.

It isn't that I am blind to the plight of these people or heartless. My Uncle started a charity which contributes to many causes including the people in Uganda. When I was there last we were involved in financing the rebuilding of two mosques. My Uncle calls me every year for my contribution to his charity.

[Edited on 6-15-2005 by xtc]