Love in action - There is a way out of homosexuality.

[Amber]

Love In Action http://www.loveinaction.org/ was started in 1973 by Frank Worthen. At 43, Frank rededicated his life to Jesus Christ after spending 20 years pursuing homosexual behavior. With a testimony tape and a newspaper ad, Frank gave a message seldom heard before, "There is a way out of homosexuality!" :rolleyes:

Now, Love in Action offers a variety of programs, the most horrendous of these, in my opinion, being the Refuge, "an intensive program designed to minister to adolescents struggling with broken and addictive behaviors, such as promiscuity, alcohol & drug addiction and homosexuality." :grr:

John Smid, Director of Love In Action, when speaking to a client of his facility, is quoted as having said the following:
I would rather you commit suicide than have you leave Love In Action wanting to return to the gay lifestyle. In a physical death you could still have a spiritual resurrection; whereas, returning to homosexuality you are yielding yourself to a spiritual death from which there is no recovery. :flamed: http://www.whosoever.org/issue4/issue4_LIA.html

This blog is from a 16 year old currently incarcerated in the refuge. He told his parents he was gay, and was subsequently sent away. http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=7428306 &Mytoken=20050604221047
I wish there were some way I could help him. :cry:

If my son were to tell me he was gay, I suppose I would be a bit shocked at first, but I would much rather he be happy in a homosexual relationship than depressed trying to supress part of his identity. I don't understand why society frowns on homosexuality the way it does. :?:

[4a6c1]

^dumb

[Vixen]

I actually have a family member,by marriage anyway, who lived as a gay man for a while, but then he says he found god, and repented, and is now married to my relative with 3 children.
I have never honestly known what to think about that. Since I have always thought that it wasn't a choice.. just simply the way one person is, as opposed to another person. Of course I am not homosexual so I can't begin to imagine what they think or feel like, but I just didnt think you could switch it off like that

[SpunGirl]

There are some really confused idiots out there.

-K

[Kainen]

If someone who's homosexual wants to live a hetro lifestyle and decides they are saved.. that's their business. As long as they don't expect anyone else to do the same. By the same token, people who DO decide that, should be left alone. It's their choice.

After reading that, all I can say is the dude would not cut it in basic.

Edit: Kid needs to suck it up, spend his whole two weeks at camp and get out.
"WAAA" i wanna kill myself and my mother "Waaaa"

[Edited on 6-11-2005 by Dave]

[Nieninque]

Well, you did.

Originally posted by Nieninque
Well, you did.

Of course I did. I am "high speed" after all.
(you wont get the joke but others should)

Its easy really. Keep your mouth shut. Do what you are told. don't bitch about everything.

[Brattt8525]

Originally posted by Dave
After reading that, all I can say is the dude would not cut it in basic.

Edit: Kid needs to suck it up, spend his whole two weeks at camp and get out.
"WAAA" i wanna kill myself and my mother "Waaaa"


[Edited on 6-11-2005 by Dave]

First your an ass, second people wonder why our kids don't want to talk to us this is a perfect example of why they don't.

I never claimed otherwise brattt. But to listen to the woe is me crap takes away any concern i might have afforded the kid. Okay hes gay, his parents didn't like it so they sent him to a two week make him straight camp. They are not beating him at the camp. I bet he is allowed to eat food. It sucks I'm sure, but people like that need to learn to adapt to the situation they are in and overcome the obstacles put in front of them. He obviously is more worried about losing his "personal stuff" for a week than giving a big fuck you to his parents in a few years once he turns 18 and lets them know hes still gay.

[Edited on 6-11-2005 by Dave]

[Kainen]

I am thinking that Dave has a bit of head-up-ass syndrome. If you ANY kind of parent at ALL you don't send your kid to a fucking camp because they get the guts up to tell you they are gay. Way to tell your kid "I don't care about your happiness, instead I am going to throw you away in some camp because I don't love you enough to deal with this with love and understanding". He told them he was gay.. not a fucking axe murderer or rapist or child molester for god's sake.

Not everyone thinks being gay is okay. (welcome to the real world)
Surprisingly, due to the stigma of homosexuality, child molester tends to be tied in with being gay. Yes chalk it up to ignorance, but that's the way it is. Being gay was not considered 'okay" in modern American society until a few decades ago. Not everyone is going to be as tolerant as everyone else.
Them sending him to the camp is their way of telling him they do care and want to help, because they see his homosexuality as something wrong and sinful that will end up with him going to "hell." Overly religious? Yep. Sad? Yep. Something the kid just needs to deal with and move on? Yep.
I will put what I posted in simple terms

Suck it up.
Wait two weeks.

And he will be free to think about naked men all the time after that.

That's all he needs to do instead of cry about it.

[Jolena]

I think you are missing the point, Dave. I doubt that the kid is really all that upset about the conditions of his lifestyle even though it may come across as such. The main thing he's probably feeling is that his parents don't have enough love and compassion for him to try to understand and accept his life choices sexually. Also that this most likely feels like a proverbial slap to the face to him.

Also, newsflash, bootcamp/basic is not the same in any way shape or form as being sent away to a 'get straight' camp by your parents for being homosexual. You volunteered, I'm sure he did not.

[Nieninque]

Dave should be sent to a two week make-him-unretarded camp.


But then maybe two weeks just isnt long enough.


Dave, just to spell it out for you, if you cant see the difference between someone wanting to join the army and doing basic training which might be a bit harsh, and someone being sent to a freak-run bible bashing, human-rights stomping camp, because his parents are fucked in the head, WHILE THEY ARE STILL A CHILD...then you really need professional help.

[Jolena]

Holy shit, I agree with Nein! w00t!

[Brattt8525]

Originally posted by Jolena
Holy shit, I agree with Nein! w00t!

Me too, now I am afraid :P

[Nieninque]

Oh yeah...pretend this is the first time why dont ya?

[Jolena]

:bleh: yeah yeah

[Skirmisher]

So, because he is gay and some people aren't comfortable with that, it's all a ok for him to be sent to a facility whose entire reason for being is to brainwash the young people whose parents send them there.

It's ok for them to be told that they should kill themselves rather than just be themselves.

I think Jolena may be making a good guess in thinking you are making the analogy between basic training in the armed forces and this kind of brainwashing camp.

They are just not the same at all.

[Edaarin]

Holy shit can you go one thread without making a comment about being in the army?

EDIT: Having read the kid's blog, my first thoughts.

1. Ugh...kid looks like a chick with huge shoulders in his avatar
2. Being sent away by your parents because of a belief would probably make a lot of people flip out.

If you had to go to a two week retarded program for violating one of the following...

Galatians 5:19 - 21: 19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21 envying, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

...who the fuck would be left?

[Edited on 6-12-2005 by Edaarin]

[Nieninque]

Well what else does he have to talk about?

[Mistomeer]

Better yet, find a teenager that hasn't violated Old Testament law.

It's part of the utter hypocrisy of the church. Gayness is wrong and there are camps to fix it, but judging others is your God-given right.

Last I checked, all sins were equal, other than blasphomey.

Originally posted by Skirmisher
So, because he is gay and some people aren't comfortable with that, it's all a ok for him to be sent to a facility whose entire reason for being is to brainwash the young people whose parents send them there.

It's ok for them to be told that they should kill themselves rather than just be themselves.

I think Jolena may be making a good guess in thinking you are making the analogy between basic training in the armed forces and this kind of brainwashing camp.

They are just not the same at all.

Try reading what I posted again.

[Ebondale]

Originally posted by Nieninque
Dave should be sent to a two week make-him-unretarded camp.


But then maybe two weeks just isnt long enough.


Dave, just to spell it out for you, if you cant see the difference between someone wanting to join the army and doing basic training which might be a bit harsh, and someone being sent to a freak-run bible bashing, human-rights stomping camp, because his parents are fucked in the head, WHILE THEY ARE STILL A CHILD...then you really need professional help.


Heh. I'd rather have the bible-thumping protestant fundamentalist zealots try to "save me" than deal with Basic Military Training again.

Its really that bad.

I guess I sort of feel bad for the kid. It's going to be a pretty bad two weeks, expecially since he was sent there by his parents. I doubt it will be the end of the world, but its going to stick with him forever. I just wish more parents had more tolerance for a child's lifestyle.

- Arkans

[Ebondale]

Originally posted by Arkans
I guess I sort of feel bad for the kid. It's going to be a pretty bad two weeks, expecially since he was sent there by his parents. I doubt it will be the end of the world, but its going to stick with him forever. I just wish more parents had more tolerance for a child's lifestyle.

- Arkans

Agreed. Love should be unconditional and not, "I'll love my kid... unless they're gay. Then they're going to have to be re-educated."

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Jolena
Holy shit, I agree with Nein! w00t!

Shit...you think that's bad...I agree with Arkans :spaz:

Doesn't this like.. herald the end of all time or something?!

- Arkans

[Skirmisher]

IT"S THE SEVENTH SIGN!!!

[Gigantuous]

It's kinda funny...you're saying it's wrong for people to judge other people...yet you're judging the judgers...hmmm.

Now, it is every parents' right and responsibility to raise their child as they see fit. So the parents of the gay kid sent him to get-straight camp because they couldn't deal with him being gay. So what. That's their right to do so as his parents. Is it fair? No. Do I, personally, think they are right? No. Is the kid going to have some bad memories? Sure.

The bottom line is, for everyone that thinks the parents are wrong, there is going to be someone who thinks the the people that thinks the parents are wrong, are wrong. Everyone's wrong, and no one is right.

(P.S. I lost track of my original intent when I started writing. Sorry if it makes no sense at all.)

[DeV]

There has always been a way out of homosexuality. Most, I'd assume would rather live a happy life than an unhappy one. Unfortunately, you can't "camp" the gay out of someone, but you can help with repressing their true feelings, which ultimately leads to a path of self destruction or re-awakening. Hopefully, it is will be the latter in this case.

Originally posted by Gigantuous
It's kinda funny...you're saying it's wrong for people to judge other people...yet you're judging the judgers...hmmm.

Now, it is every parents' right and responsibility to raise their child as they see fit. So the parents of the gay kid sent him to get-straight camp because they couldn't deal with him being gay. So what. That's their right to do so as his parents. Is it fair? No. Do I, personally, think they are right? No. Is the kid going to have some bad memories? Sure.

The bottom line is, for everyone that thinks the parents are wrong, there is going to be someone who thinks the the people that thinks the parents are wrong, are wrong. Everyone's wrong, and no one is right.

(P.S. I lost track of my original intent when I started writing. Sorry if it makes no sense at all.)

Exactly what I am saying, I think.

Originally posted by Ebondale

Originally posted by Nieninque
Dave should be sent to a two week make-him-unretarded camp.


But then maybe two weeks just isnt long enough.


Dave, just to spell it out for you, if you cant see the difference between someone wanting to join the army and doing basic training which might be a bit harsh, and someone being sent to a freak-run bible bashing, human-rights stomping camp, because his parents are fucked in the head, WHILE THEY ARE STILL A CHILD...then you really need professional help.


Heh. I'd rather have the bible-thumping protestant fundamentalist zealots try to "save me" than deal with Basic Military Training again.

Its really that bad.

Mind you he did his in the airforce.
As for the whole "you volunteered" Nobody knows what they are getting into when they sign up, they think they do but the reality is far different.

[Edited on 6-12-2005 by Dave]

[Ebondale]

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Ebondale

Originally posted by Nieninque
Dave should be sent to a two week make-him-unretarded camp.


But then maybe two weeks just isnt long enough.


Dave, just to spell it out for you, if you cant see the difference between someone wanting to join the army and doing basic training which might be a bit harsh, and someone being sent to a freak-run bible bashing, human-rights stomping camp, because his parents are fucked in the head, WHILE THEY ARE STILL A CHILD...then you really need professional help.


Heh. I'd rather have the bible-thumping protestant fundamentalist zealots try to "save me" than deal with Basic Military Training again.

Its really that bad.

heh and you did yours in the airforce...

A lot of mind games and scare tactics. A whole lot. Its a lot more mentally challenging. :)

I fixed it, didn't mean to seem demeaning Ebondale

[DeV]

Originally posted by Gigantuous
Is the kid going to have some bad memories? Sure.
Unfortunatly, it goes MUCH deeper than just having bad memories. Some parents have yet to understand the power of support and unconditional love, and how greater an effect that would have on their child, rather than denying something they will live with for the rest of their lives. If he doesn't get the support from his parents, he will find it elsewhere eventually.

You never stop loving your parents though and that is something major they have in their favor.

[Ebondale]

Originally posted by Dave
I fixed it, didn't mean to seem demeaning Ebondale

I didn't take it as sounding demeaning, Dave. You know what I'm talking about, though. BMT is no Christian Summer Camp. That shit is no joke. :)

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Gigantuous
Now, it is every parents' right and responsibility to raise their child as they see fit. Faulty premise. Proof: child abuse laws.

I don't know where I stand on the kid's parents. Not loving someone is wrong. The real question is whether or not his parents have done that. That they believe that homosexuality is a choice and can be unchosen is obvious (which is a problem in and of itself), but I don't see any evidence that they don't love their child.

The joker who wants people to kill themselves instead of being gay is the problem I'd be most concerned with at the moment.

The real question that one must ask also is how truthful is this kid really being. We know how people can like and are more than willing to embellish things to make them look better. Its hard for me to take people's words at face value anymore, especially when they are telling woe is me stories.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
but I don't see any evidence that they don't love their child.
Not loving someone is wholly different than not expressing or displaying unconditional love.

The parents obviously feel love for their child or they would not want to correct his "sinful" lifestyle "choice".

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Dave
The real question that one must ask also is how truthful is this kid really being. We know how people can like and are more than willing to embellish things to make them look better. Its hard for me to take people's words at face value anymore, especially when they are telling woe is me stories.

How truthful the kid is being? You have got to be kidding me.

It wasn't an entry from camp, it was an entry made prior to being sent away to camp. Did you read about the camp? Did you bother?

This isn't some fucking kumbay fucking yayaya around the camp fire with smores, a guitar, and stories from the bible camp. This is a restrictive, wake up and work till you puke, three squares; we’re going to physically exhaust you then fuck you in the head while you're out of it camp.

This is child abuse via proxy and no parent has the right to abuse their child, nor allow someone to do it for them.

If they don't accept his sexuality, that's their right as people. If they don't want him practicing his sexuality, it is their right as parents to forbid it while he is under their roof.

No one says they have to accept it or condone it. They just shouldn't abuse their kid over it.

This isn't some fucking kumbay fucking yayaya around the camp fire with smores, a guitar, and stories from the bible camp. This is a restrictive, wake up and work till you puke, three squares; we’re going to physically exhaust you then fuck you in the head while you're out of it camp.

I've never experienced anything like that before

[Edited on 6-12-2005 by Dave]

It's my fault i didn't pay close enough attention to the dates. Knowing them it makes my opinion of this kid even worse. He hasn't even been there and hes all crying about it. I bet he screamed when he learned he had to cut his hair.

I'm also kind of curious where you assume its some horrid labor camp. If you could point out to me where in the information provided you saw it I would appreciate it. I must have missed it.

[Edited on 6-12-2005 by Dave]

[CrystalTears]

Reading this made me sad for people of my faith who really feel this way.

http://www.asafeplace.org/default.aspx?pid=8

"Wasn't I born gay?"

No, you weren't born gay. There are many factors which influence the development of same-sex attractions during childhood. These include the relationship with your parents, relations to other children of the same sex, possible abuse or molestation, etc. God has allowed you to have this particular temptation, but he has also provided you a way out.
I Corinthians 10:13 says, "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make a way for you to escape, that you may be able to bear it." You may not have chosen your sexual struggle, but you can learn how to choose your sexual activities.

"It's not my fault I'm gay, I was abused."

Abuse is often directly linked to homosexual attractions. However, while you are not responsible for your attractions to others, you are responsible for your actions. Our emotions often lead us to believe something is good for us when in reality in can be dangerous or even deadly. You would not be to blame foe having a certian thought, but you must take ownership of how you act on your attractions, whether homosexual or heterosexual.

"Is there really a way out of every addiction?"

Yes. No matter what the addiction may be, God has created a way for you to escape. It is most commonly claimed that there is no way out of homosexuality, so we asked on of our former clients who struggled with same sex attractions to give his response to this question.

"Yes! Just read the testimonies of people like myself, who struggled deeply with homosexuality and are now experiencing true freedom in Christ. Will the attractions ever completely go away? I honestly don't know. What I do know is that I no longer have to give in to temptations because I have true, lasting, indisputable freedom."

~ Michael Miller, 8-week Refuge client


I feel bad for this poor kid that has to endure a camp to "free" you from your "addiction".

Edited to add the link.

[Edited on 6/12/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Snapp]

Originally posted by Dave
I've never experienced anything like that before

But you VOLUNTEERED. Whether you knew what it would "really be like" or not, you VOLUNTEERED. This kid was forced to go there because he was told what he felt was wrong and had to be cured. You were not forced, you signed up. It's your fault if you had a hard time.

which is why i said, all he needs to do it suck it up, spend his *two weeks" doing what is expceted of him and give his parents a big fuck you when he is done.

[Wezas]

If he does that, Dave, he'll just be sent back to the camp again - or worse some kind of long-term camp.

I understand doing some kind of religious camp for drug-related issues. The time away without having any drugs alone would be beneficial. I'm pretty sure that....

Gay Doesn't Go Away

Also your comment about you thinking he'll be screaming about having his hair cut just further expresses your homophobia.

? no I understand the mentailty of a teanager. The world ends if you dont get things your way.
Hes 16 wait until he is 18 then give his parents a fuck you.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Dave
? no I understand the mentailty of a teanager.

No, Dave. You don't understand the mentality of a gay teenager trying to come to terms with who he is and then being sent away to be 'fixed'.

But I don't expect you to. Your compassion for him is on par with your compassion for animals being needlessly tortured. You just don't care. We get it.

Raven

[HarmNone]

I can't imagine what this child must be feeling. To have the very heart of who you are rejected by those who should love you, no matter what, must be devastating. It's like being sent away because you have blue eyes and your parents' eyes are brown. It's being told that YOU (the intrinsic YOU) are all wrong. You're broken, somehow, and need to be "fixed".

To me, it's sickening.

[Artha]

The empathic side of me sympathizes with this kid. The rest of me thinks that it's only 2 weeks, and he gets to go home every day. It's hardly Challenger (www.63days.com).

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Dave

I'm also kind of curious where you assume its some horrid labor camp. If you could point out to me where in the information provided you saw it I would appreciate it. I must have missed it.

[Edited on 6-12-2005 by Dave]



John Smid, Director of Love In Action, when speaking to a client of his facility, is quoted as having said the following:
I would rather you commit suicide than have you leave Love In Action wanting to return to the gay lifestyle. In a physical death you could still have a spiritual resurrection; whereas, returning to homosexuality you are yielding yourself to a spiritual death from which there is no recovery.

[Artha]

That's cool because, while amazingly retarded, it says nothing about the place being a labor camp or anything of the like.

[CrystalTears]

I think being told by the director that killing yourself is better than being gay is rather torturous of them to say.

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Dave

I'm also kind of curious where you assume its some horrid labor camp. If you could point out to me where in the information provided you saw it I would appreciate it. I must have missed it.

[Edited on 6-12-2005 by Dave]



John Smid, Director of Love In Action, when speaking to a client of his facility, is quoted as having said the following:
I would rather you commit suicide than have you leave Love In Action wanting to return to the gay lifestyle. In a physical death you could still have a spiritual resurrection; whereas, returning to homosexuality you are yielding yourself to a spiritual death from which there is no recovery.

Ohhh Okay I see it. That is where it says they are beating the children, and making them break rocks all day until their hands bleed! My god how did I miss that. Not to mention the two straight months of sleep deprivation, and forced hydration. (most of you wont get the last comment it was a joke)

BTW, thank you for proving my point, Tsa'ah would not have, since it would show he made an erroneous assumption.

[Edited on 6-12-2005 by Dave]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I think being told by the director that killing yourself is better than being gay is rather torturous of them to say.

Shit Somebody call the FBI, every one who has told somebody to kill themselves on the boards needs to be investigated for their partaking in torturous acts.

[Tsa`ah]

Dave, you're a fucking idiot who's stupidity is beyond measure.

No one implied a labor camp. Work as in physical activity to the point of exhaustion.

That shot to the mouth didn't do a fucking bit of good did it.

[OreoElf]

This whole thing reminds me of that movie Saved... Sometimes I am amazed about the crimes committed emotionally and sometimes physically in the name of religion.

People, whatever their sexual preference, have a right to practice it and be happy IMHO. This doesn't include sexual preditors such as pedophiles and rapists ;)

Thanks for the reminder Latrinostorm <3's

[Edited for spelling and a correction of MO.]

[Edited on 6-12-2005 by OreoElf]

[Edited on 6-12-2005 by OreoElf]

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Originally posted by Dave
I never claimed otherwise brattt. But to listen to the woe is me crap takes away any concern i might have afforded the kid. Okay hes gay, his parents didn't like it so they sent him to a two week make him straight camp. They are not beating him at the camp. I bet he is allowed to eat food. It sucks I'm sure, but people like that need to learn to adapt to the situation they are in and overcome the obstacles put in front of them. He obviously is more worried about losing his "personal stuff" for a week than giving a big fuck you to his parents in a few years once he turns 18 and lets them know hes still gay.

[Edited on 6-11-2005 by Dave]

Would overcoming obstacles put in front of him be like, joining the Army after you found out you couldn't cut it as a lens grinder? Would overcoming obstacles be like putting "I am an American Soldier" in your signature line for months prior to actually being in the armed forces? Would overcoming obstacles be like when you fall and headbutt your own rifle and break off half a tooth and then post about it on a message board because you are so desperate for attention you need the sympathy?

I'm just trying to put it in perspective. You've never suffered a hardship in your life. Try having someone tell you that you can't be an ignorant fuck and sending you to a camp where they tell you that being the ignorant fuck you are is bad and they would rather you commit suicide that be that fucking ignorant. I'm speaking specifically about how much of an ignorant fuck you are, just so you get it. You, are an ignorant fuck, and if there ever NEEDED to be a camp for ignorant fucks, there is a need for you, right now.

Oh, there are other types of physical work that lead to exhaustion aside from hours of physical labor? (kinda sounds like a labor camp.)

Well fuck, like what?

As to the shot in the mouth, knocking the guy out with my Kevlar after he did it and standing over his unconscious body made up for the slight of getting part of my tooth knocked out. Also the fact that I didn't get in trouble for it at all, more of a pat on the back, it kinda made me proud.

Is there a reason you cant post something in response to me without insulting. You're a smart guy, try using that instead of acting like a kid.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I think being told by the director that killing yourself is better than being gay is rather torturous of them to say.

Shit Somebody call the FBI, every one who has told somebody to kill themselves on the boards needs to be investigated for their partaking in torturous acts.

Again, you're missing the point, that people come here VOLUNTARILY and if you're subjected to humiliation, then that is your cross to bear. This person is being FORCED to go to a camp to do something that will psychologically fuck him up.

You just don't get it, do you?

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage

Would overcoming obstacles put in front of him be like, joining the Army after you found out you couldn't cut it as a lens grinder? Would overcoming obstacles be like putting "I am an American Soldier" in your signature line for months prior to actually being in the armed forces? Would overcoming obstacles be like when you fall and headbutt your own rifle and break off half a tooth and then post about it on a message board because you are so desperate for attention you need the sympathy?

I'm just trying to put it in perspective. You've never suffered a hardship in your life. Try having someone tell you that you can't be an ignorant fuck and sending you to a camp where they tell you that being the ignorant fuck you are is bad and they would rather you commit suicide that be that fucking ignorant. I'm speaking specifically about how much of an ignorant fuck you are, just so you get it. You, are an ignorant fuck, and if there ever NEEDED to be a camp for ignorant fucks, there is a need for you, right now.

:clap:

[Tsa`ah]

Dave, you ignorant fuck, physical activity does not always qualify as physical labor.

You were the only dumb shit to imply a labor camp in your replies. Everyone else got it ... except for you ... and maybe Nakiro ... but the post specifically was a mile over your head.

Take a few more shots, maybe you'll go comatose or something will finally click.

Originally posted by CrystalTears

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I think being told by the director that killing yourself is better than being gay is rather torturous of them to say.

Shit Somebody call the FBI, every one who has told somebody to kill themselves on the boards needs to be investigated for their partaking in torturous acts.

Again, you're missing the point, that people come here VOLUNTARILY and if you're subjected to humiliation, then that is your cross to bear. This person is being FORCED to go to a camp to do something that will psychologically fuck him up.

You just don't get it, do you?

Two weeks of daytime camp are not going to psychologically fuck this guy up unless he is already a weak minded human being, where as he would have snapped sooner or later, at least he will now know he cant stand up to any stress and can live in his little happy bubble for the rest of his life.

Originally posted by CrystalTears

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I think being told by the director that killing yourself is better than being gay is rather torturous of them to say.

Shit Somebody call the FBI, every one who has told somebody to kill themselves on the boards needs to be investigated for their partaking in torturous acts.

Again, you're missing the point, that people come here VOLUNTARILY and if you're subjected to humiliation, then that is your cross to bear. This person is being FORCED to go to a camp to do something that will psychologically fuck him up.

You just don't get it, do you?

Two weeks of daytime camp are not going to psychologically fuck this guy up unless he is already a weak minded human being, where as he would have snapped sooner or later, at least he will now know he cant stand up to any stress and can live in his little happy bubble for the rest of his life.

[Snapp]

Originally posted by OreoElf
This whole thing reminds me of that movie Saved...
When I first was reading this topic, that movie popped in my head too. Damn that Mandy Moore.

As for Dave's replies, it's pointless to even argue with him. He doesn't seem to have the mental capacity to understand what's being discussed.

[Delirium]

The camp is nuts ill admit. However i dont think ones sexual preference is "the very heart of who you are". I feel bad for the kid but at the same time i realize it is 2 weeks. The kids parents have beliefs, right or wrong, and are trying to raise their child in that way. I know my parents tried to raise me to be a catholic and fat lot of good that did em? I didnt feel rejected by them one bit cause i havent been to church in 14 years.

I mean seriously, if you are at least 25 and havent felt rejected by parents as a person yet, your parents arnt human. Everyone's parents force them to do things they think are pointless. Now that im older i realize how many of them were pointless and stupid. However it was their right to try to instill their values in me even if they were distorted. Thats why becoming an adult is such a big deal, you get to decide what you believe.

Like i said, i feel bad for the kid but it is for two weeks. I got stuck in religious camps, religious classes, heck even swimming lessons longer than that.

[Nieninque]

But you werent told...Hey kill yourself rather than being [insert something about yourself that you cant change here]

I understand it just fine. Because I have a dissenting opinion on the matter ( not saying that the parents should be doing this mind you, just that that the kid needs to suck it up and stop crying about it) The normal posters, Tsa'ah, Nien, SHM, true to form attack me.

As I have said, I am sorry for the kid, it sucks, it shouldn't happen. But, it seems to have been unavoidable for him, so he needs to suck it up, go through what his parents want him to go trough, and move on.

Originally posted by Nieninque
But you werent told...Hey kill yourself rather than being [insert something about yourself that you cant change here]

Very good, neither was the kid.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Dave
Two weeks of daytime camp are not going to psychologically fuck this guy up unless he is already a weak minded human being, where as he would have snapped sooner or later, at least he will now know he cant stand up to any stress and can live in his little happy bubble for the rest of his life.

He is 16 years old you fucking moron.
He has had to live with the shit that is flung at gays for 16 years and he is coming to terrms with the fact that he is one of the people that his friends and everyone else slates on a daily basis.

He was strong enough in himself to accept his sexuality at 16...which is no mean feat. He wanted to tell his parents and they sent him away to be told that he is a pervert and is wrong and that he would be better off killing himself.

The fact that at the age of 16 he felt he could stand up to the prejudice he knows he will face, means he has already proved himself to be a stronger minded person than you.

The fact that you still dont see that this is abusive, emphasises that even more.

And as for the belief that parents have the right to raise their children how they want, parents actually have a RESPONSIBILITY to raise their children as healthy, balanced human beings. Those parents failed.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Dave
Two weeks of daytime camp are not going to psychologically fuck this guy up unless he is already a weak minded human being, where as he would have snapped sooner or later, at least he will now know he cant stand up to any stress and can live in his little happy bubble for the rest of his life.

Wow. Happy bubble? You're really thick. This isn't about just being sent to a camp for jollies for two weeks. This is about being sent to a place that will tell him for two weeks that being gay is wrong, merely an addiction, and that he is an abomination of God and should kill himself if he continues such a life. That's okay with you? Holy cow.

If the above is true Nien, then he will come out of this camp just fine and be the exact same person he was before he came in. All be it a bit more spiteful towards his parents.

Then again this dumbfuck is talking about killing his mother, sorry not acceptable in my eyes at all.

[Delirium]

His parents didnt tell the kid that as far as ive read? Its the nutjob running the camp. And im pretty sure everyone has had people tell them to kill themselves at some point over things they cant change or perceive they cant change. Hopefully that quote is something extreme that slipped out and not an on going thing. If its the parents that were saying that then yes, thats horrible and abuse. Heck even if the parents know that quote is there and still sent him there its disgusting. On the other hand ignornace is bliss for quite a lot of people, maybe when the kid gets home they will realize the mistake.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Dave
I understand it just fine. Because I have a dissenting opinion on the matter ( not saying that the parents should be doing this mind you, just that that the kid needs to suck it up and stop crying about it) The normal posters, Tsa'ah, Nien, SHM, true to form attack me.

Aww bless...feeling a little got at?


I will troll the boards for each and every post pf hers, just for you.




As I have said, I am sorry for the kid, it sucks, it shouldn't happen. But, it seems to have been unavoidable for him, so he needs to suck it up, go through what his parents want him to go trough, and move on.

How the fuck was it unavoidable?
All gay children need to be emotionally abused in the US? That written into the constitution? Otherwise how the fuck was it unavoidable?
Why should he have to be abused just because his parents want him to?

Originally posted by CrystalTears

Originally posted by Dave
Two weeks of daytime camp are not going to psychologically fuck this guy up unless he is already a weak minded human being, where as he would have snapped sooner or later, at least he will now know he cant stand up to any stress and can live in his little happy bubble for the rest of his life.

Wow. Happy bubble? You're really thick. This isn't about just being sent to a camp for jollies for two weeks. This is about being sent to a place that will tell him for two weeks that being gay is wrong, merely an addiction, and that he is an abomination of God and should kill himself if he continues such a life. That's okay with you? Holy cow.

One guy who had been at the camp for YEARS and had a close personal relationship with those that work at the camp sates that he was told this.
The person who "allegedly" told the guy to kill himself says nope, not my views. You see if this was true "religious fundamentalists" and all suicide is a sin, and the guy would head to hell for it, kind of defeating the whole purpose of saving him.

So sue me for being a skeptic

[Edited on 6-12-2005 by Dave]

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Dave
If the above is true Nien, then he will come out of this camp just fine and be the exact same person he was before he came in. All be it a bit more spiteful towards his parents.

Then again this dumbfuck is talking about killing his mother, sorry not acceptable in my eyes at all.

But it's ok for the vicar to tell him to kill himself?

Riiiiiight.

Originally posted by Delirium
His parents didnt tell the kid that as far as ive read? Its the nutjob running the camp. And im pretty sure everyone has had people tell them to kill themselves at some point over things they cant change or perceive they cant change. Hopefully that quote is something extreme that slipped out and not an on going thing. If its the parents that were saying that then yes, thats horrible and abuse. Heck even if the parents know that quote is there and still sent him there its disgusting. On the other hand ignornace is bliss for quite a lot of people, maybe when the kid gets home they will realize the mistake.

The kill yourself comment is a quote from a guy who was in the camp like 10 years ago, located on a gay rights website

[Edited on 6-12-2005 by Dave]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Dave
If the above is true Nien, then he will come out of this camp just fine and be the exact same person he was before he came in. All be it a bit more spiteful towards his parents.

Then again this dumbfuck is talking about killing his mother, sorry not acceptable in my eyes at all.

But it's ok for the vicar to tell him to kill himself?

Riiiiiight.

Okay let us play this game again. Show me please where this kid was told to kill himself. Thank you in advance.

Edit: oh wait! you can not. You see he was never told that. Silly me, silly you.

[Edited on 6-12-2005 by Dave]

Originally posted by Nieninque
How the fuck was it unavoidable?
All gay children need to be emotionally abused in the US? That written into the constitution? Otherwise how the fuck was it unavoidable?
Why should he have to be abused just because his parents want him to?
unavoidable because his parents decided to send him there, and because he is a child he has to do as they wish. Thats how its unavoidable.

As to the emotionally abused, cry me a fucking river. TWO WEEKS. damn its not that long.

[Nieninque]

"I would rather you commit suicide than have you leave Love In Action wanting to return to the gay lifestyle. In a physical death you could still have a spiritual resurrection; whereas, returning to homosexuality you are yielding yourself to a spiritual death from which there is no recovery." --The Final Indoctrination from John Smid, Director, Love In Action (LIA), San Rafael's "ex-gay" clan.

"That's exactly how he put it," states Tom Ottosen, 24, an expressive, articulate two year ex-LIA group member.

Ottosen says he clearly recalls that experience. He says it occurred in October of last year during his last one-on-one conference with John Smid, LIA's Executive Director, who claims to be able to change gay men into straight men through a live-in rigidly controlled indoctrination program Smid calls "reparative therapy."

Last year. Not ten years ago.
Last year.
If he said it to anyone AT ALL, he should not have children in his care.
Ever.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Nieninque
How the fuck was it unavoidable?
All gay children need to be emotionally abused in the US? That written into the constitution? Otherwise how the fuck was it unavoidable?
Why should he have to be abused just because his parents want him to?
unavoidable because his parents decided to send him there, and because he is a child he has to do as they wish. Thats how its unavoidable.

As to the emotionally abused, cry me a fucking river. TWO WEEKS. damn its not that long.

Avoidable because his parents shouldn't be able to send kids to be abused.
Avoidable because the priest or whatever he calls himself shouldnt be allowed to look after hamsters, let alone children.
And two weeks of emotional abuse is two weeks too long.
For someone who cries about people picking on him on an internet message board, you should know that. :loser:

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by CrystalTears

Originally posted by Dave
Two weeks of daytime camp are not going to psychologically fuck this guy up unless he is already a weak minded human being, where as he would have snapped sooner or later, at least he will now know he cant stand up to any stress and can live in his little happy bubble for the rest of his life.

Wow. Happy bubble? You're really thick. This isn't about just being sent to a camp for jollies for two weeks. This is about being sent to a place that will tell him for two weeks that being gay is wrong, merely an addiction, and that he is an abomination of God and should kill himself if he continues such a life. That's okay with you? Holy cow.

One guy who had been at the camp for YEARS and had a close personal relationship with those that work at the camp sates that he was told this.
The person who "allegedly" told the guy to kill himself says nope, not my views. You see if this was true "religious fundamentalists" and all suicide is a sin, and the guy would head to hell for it, kind of defeating the whole purpose of saving him.

So sue me for being a skeptic

[Edited on 6-12-2005 by Dave]

Which shows you know absolutely nothing about religious camps and seminars.

They psyche and pump you up into believing their crap. In their world you buy it all, surrounded by other people who buy this garbage as well and "support" you. For a small moment are in an ignorant euphoria.

Then you return to the real world with real people and realize that they fed you a bunch of crap.

If you feel that someone should go through that kind of humiliation and a warped course of self-esteem, so be it. But this is hardly just your typical week with God tour. This is a seriously huge mind fuck.

[Latrinsorm]

This place is hardly representative of all religious events/camps/retreats. :no:

[CrystalTears]

If you aren't as spiritual as they are and are being sent there unwillingly? I believe so.

[Brattt8525]

Dave are you that much of a heartless person? Comparing your/anyones enlist into basic with this kids problem. YOU/anyone who enlists did so willingly this child didn't. All this child did was confide in his parents, you know those people who are supposed to support you understand and help you? Not those who will take what you tell them about yourself and damn you to a camp that wants to fucking brain wash you.

Parents of the year they are. Hey son we think your fucked up so we are sending you away to be messed with mentally to understand that how you feel doesn't fucking matter!!!!

PS Dave please don't sire any children.

Originally posted by Brattt8525
Dave are you that much of a heartless person? Comparing your/anyones enlist into basic with this kids problem. YOU/anyone who enlists did so willingly this child didn't. All this child did was confide in his parents, you know those people who are supposed to support you understand and help you? Not those who will take what you tell them about yourself and damn you to a camp that wants to fucking brain wash you.

Parents of the year they are. Hey son we think your fucked up so we are sending you away to be messed with mentally to understand that how you feel doesn't fucking matter!!!!

PS Dave please don't sire any children.

What of my father, and all the others that were drafted. We have it easy compared to how it was for them.

I would not do something like this with my child, but it is not my place to judge these parents. They made the choice, and because he is their child he is going to have to suffer for it. Don't let your emotions make decisions for you. What they are doing is apparently allowed or the government would have shut them down.

Edit: as to the mention of basic training... That was in relation to the rules of the "camp" which are somewhat close to the way privates are treated. (not quite to the extent though.)
You would be surprised how many of these "kids" 17 year olds go though basic training between their junior and senior year in high school then continue their service after graduation. Since I have been here two people in my troop have celebrated their 18th birthday.
So I am sorry if I dont feel so bad for the kid, he will come out a stronger person after all is done.

[Edited on 6-13-2005 by Dave]

[CrystalTears]

So I am sorry if I dont feel so bad for the kid, he will come out a stronger person after all is done.

Which shows that you still don't get what this camp is about. But you're right, it's not illegal and since he is bound to these people and they're his parents, they can screw with his brain all they want. Afterall they won't have to live the life he has ahead of him. :banghead:

[Edited on 6/13/2005 by CrystalTears]

I understand what the camp is about. I also understand that when a person expects things to happen that they will not affect them in such a manner as you are assuming it will affect him.

[Delirium]

In the long run i think it will be exactly like i think CT said. You can start to get brainwashed(or buy the hype) but once youre back in reality all the crap will wipe clean eventually. Probably be a distance there emotionally with his parents but he will get over it eventually or he wont. Seriously, the kid would most likely have told his parents anyway at some point and do ya think at 18 (or 50 for that matter) these people would have handled it better? The only difference here is 2 weeks in a camp that wont change anything. As long as he has support from somewhere(friends, other non fundie relatives etc) then hopefully he wont snap. Who knows,,maybe a 2 year head start on distancing himself from his parents will be a positive.

[CrystalTears]

Part of the rules...

5. Your client is not allowed to talk to anyone outside of your home including friends or family. Do not tell client who has called for them or who is asking about them. Keep the thoughts of the client focused on his/her treatment.

If the parents adhere to these rules, he won't get the REAL support he needs. I feel for him, I really do.

TWO WEEKS!

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Dave
TWO WEEKS!

Wrong answer. A lifetime.

Raven

if he lets it.

I guess in the end we can see what he says when he gets out of camp. :)

[Delirium]

Wrong answer. A lifetime.

Just curious since you might have experience. Any relatives really freak out like that when you came out? Does it still make ya feel inferior? You seem confident and comfortable in your own skin is why i ask. It seems like thats what it always comes down to in the end anyway. Being able to accept yourself no matter what the situation is seems to be more important than what any individual(even relatives) might think. Understandably tho i can imagine the closer the betrayal the harder it is to get over.

[CrystalTears]

I feel for this guy, I really do. To have your family feel that they raised him wrong and feel the need to send him away to "correct" him just pains me to hear.

He found the strength to tell his family. Even though it would hurt, he would be better off if they just told him that they didn't understand but that they still loved him. But they're making him feel inferior for feeling the way he does. That's just disgusting, to tell the truth. He shared something sensitive and personal with his family and they totally let him down and are considering him tainted.

No matter how strong this boy may be, hearing people tell you over and over again that you are a sin and are wrong in the eyes of God will only cause this boy to not only resent his family, but resent his God, resent his religion and those that he trusted.

I'm not saying that people need to embrace those who are gay. I just think that as long as they aren't pushing it on anyone else to let them lead their life their own way if it's what makes them happy. Course hearing someone here be as closed-minded as middle-aged parents makes me hope that people like that never have children of their own.

[Tsa`ah]

You also have to look at the age. While confident gay 16 year olds may exist, I'm sure they're not the norm. I would go as far as saying that it's probably a rare thing.

The negativity his parents are laying on him, the breech of trust, the "Christian" brand of love they're giving him, and a number of other things ... will make follow him for some time until he matures enough to let it go and move on with his life outside the home he has known.

To suggest that he "suck it up" is beyond retarded as most 16 year olds don't, and probably can't, suck up that kind of pressure and betrayal.

So what does my having to hear how bad of a soldier I am on here every day do to me? That has been going on for months mind you.

As I said people are stronger than you assume this kid is. He will be fine.

[CrystalTears]

Hey! Guess what! You don't have to come here if you don't like what you hear! We're not your parents nor your siblings. Some people here don't give a shit about you and you care what they think of you? That's your problem, not anyone else's. The problem with this situation is that his loved ones are turning their back on him. There's quite a difference there. Just because you feel that you're holier-than-thou doesn't mean that everyone can and should take abuse, especially when they didn't invite or ask for it.

[Skirmisher]

Dave, you aren't 16.

Please stop trying to project yourself into his shoes. It is just a leap that at this point is beyond your understanding.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Delirium

Wrong answer. A lifetime.

Just curious since you might have experience. Any relatives really freak out like that when you came out? Does it still make ya feel inferior? You seem confident and comfortable in your own skin is why i ask. It seems like thats what it always comes down to in the end anyway. Being able to accept yourself no matter what the situation is seems to be more important than what any individual(even relatives) might think. Understandably tho i can imagine the closer the betrayal the harder it is to get over.

Maybe this (http://www.livejournal.com/users/tnp/42120.html) will answer that question. It's an LJ entry I wrote not too long ago when I was feeling reflective. It took me a long time to get to the point where I'd even mention being gay on a message board.

Raven

[Delirium]

Heh, if the last sentence was aimed at me i can tell you right now i promise to never have children. Not cause of that sentence but for my own reasons.


He shared something sensitive and personal with his family and they totally let him down and are considering him tainted.

This i totally agree with. Tho part of me wonders since he grew up with them that he might have known and even been looking for a negative reaction. I know growing up with my dad , it wasnt any secret he was racist. I certainly wouldnt have told him i had a non-white girlfriend if i was under the age of 18. Who knows i guess, maybe if i was in desperate need of acceptance i might have. Guess i cant wear those shoes.


No matter how strong this boy may be, hearing people tell you over and over again that you are a sin and are wrong in the eyes of God will only cause this boy to not only resent his family, but resent his God, resent his religion and those that he trusted.

One of the few things i remember from the religious classes is that we are all sinners and tainted. He might not even be into his religion. I know i was just walking the walk so my parents would get off my back.

Hopefully in the end this is just one of those incidents ya look back on as an adult and wonder what the hell is wrong with your parents and eventually pity them.

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Hey! Guess what! You don't have to come here if you don't like what you hear! We're not your parents nor your siblings. Some people here don't give a shit about you and you care what they think of you? That's your problem, not anyone else's. The problem with this situation is that his loved ones are turning their back on him. There's quite a difference there. Just because you feel that you're holier-than-thou doesn't mean that everyone can and should take abuse, especially when they didn't invite or ask for it.

What people here think dosent matter to me. Hopefully he will learn the lesson over the next few weeks.

As I said, we will see how he is when he gets back.

[CrystalTears]

Learn what lesson? That what his loved ones feel about him doesn't matter? That the people he believed in let him down and shouldn't count on them again?

And if you don't care what people think about you here, why even bring that analogy up?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Originally posted by Dave
TWO WEEKS!

Give me two weeks alone with you, Davie, and I guarantee your perspective will change.

[Delirium]

Maybe this will answer that question. It's an LJ entry I wrote not too long ago when I was feeling reflective. It took me a long time to get to the point where I'd even mention being gay on a message board.

Raven

Very intresting and well written. Kinda makes it easier to "feel" the insecurities when they are maxed out like that. Im very happy to see you have made it to such a good place. Hopefully this kid can find the support and inner fortitude you found and make it thru this too and not end up choosing a different route.

So, if I had a threeway with a chihuahua, a prominent male politician, with a midget on top, is that gay?

[Delirium]

Wouldnt that be a 4 way or does the dog, midget or politician not count?

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
So, if I had a threeway with a chihuahua, a prominent male politician, with a midget on top, is that gay?

The act is one of homosexuality and beastiality ... unless there is attraction there ... no.

It's all good cause I imagined them all as totally awesome brazillian babes, except the kind w/o hairy armpits. It was awesome.

[Mistomeer]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
So, if I had a threeway with a chihuahua, a prominent male politician, with a midget on top, is that gay?

It's not gay if your balls don't touch.
It's not gay if your pitching.
etc...

[DeV]

I've seen midget porn. They get down.

[4a6c1]

Ok something is just not right.

WHY HAVE I NEVER SEEN MIDGET PORN??

[DeV]

Originally posted by JihnasSpirit
WHY HAVE I NEVER SEEN MIDGET PORN?? Get with the program, slacker. <3

Seriously, my curiousity got the best of me one day.

[4a6c1]

Originally posted by JihnasSpirit
Ok something is just not right.

WHY HAVE I NEVER SEEN MIDGET PORN??

UPDATE:

Dave is sickeningly adorable. AND he found me midget porn to oggle at.

(le crie @ hairy midget cat)

She lies.

YouKnowHowItIs1 (9:14:45 PM): you.
RedElement12 (9:14:47 PM): i lied!
RedElement12 (9:14:50 PM): http://forum.gsplayers.com/viewthread.php?tid=15322&page=5#pid379347
YouKnowHowItIs1 (9:14:52 PM): You despicable human being


she even admits fibbing

[Edited on 6-13-2005 by Dave]

[4a6c1]

teehee

[Ambrosia]

How come I can't see the damn blog? Grrr.

[Gigantuous]

Originally posted by HarmNone
I can't imagine what this child must be feeling. To have the very heart of who you are rejected by those who should love you, no matter what, must be devastating. It's like being sent away because you have blue eyes and your parents' eyes are brown. It's being told that YOU (the intrinsic YOU) are all wrong. You're broken, somehow, and need to be "fixed".

To me, it's sickening.

Sexual orientation is the "heart of who you are"?

Huh. I just thought it was what got your motor running.;)

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Dave
So what does my having to hear how bad of a soldier I am on here every day do to me? That has been going on for months mind you.

As I said people are stronger than you assume this kid is. He will be fine.

^^^That was the stupidest post ever.^^^

[Groldar]

So I'm just wondering. This isn't an attempt to troll, etc. But seriously whats up with the drastic number of posts about homosexuality, etc. on these boards? It makes no sense to me why everyone is so fixated on it as a topic of discussion.


Anyone who disagrees that people shouldn't be able to live the life the want to live if they're not hurting anyone else, Mill, is a fucking idiot. That should be the end of this discussion. Christians and whoever else have moral implications against those who want to live THEIR life need to go look in the fucking mirrior. I haven't met one person that hasn't or doesn't "sin" on a daily, if not weekly at least, basis. So if its a sin, its just like any other sin that you hypocrites are committing. But theres one HUGE problem. The homosexuals don't stuff their agenda that has nothing to do with you down your throats, while you do that to them.

Given that, can we please just stop these threads and ignore the morons that would seek to for a argument against homosexuality, etc. The BEST argument I've ever heard, which was still very weak in nature, was that homosexuality is a slippery slope. Granted, but we're back to square one.

[Ebondale]

Holy crap. Groldar said something that not only doesn't irritate me, but I agree with it. Good job, Groldar. :)

[Groldar]

Originally posted by Ebondale
Holy crap. Groldar said something that not only doesn't irritate me, but I agree with it. Good job, Groldar. :)

When I'm not bored I'm a nice guy!

T.T

[Ebondale]

Originally posted by Groldar

Originally posted by Ebondale
Holy crap. Groldar said something that not only doesn't irritate me, but I agree with it. Good job, Groldar. :)

When I'm not bored I'm a nice guy!

T.T

You should find things to occupy yourself with more often, then. ;)

[Warriorbird]

"This place is hardly representative of all religious events/camps/retreats"

But quite representative of the "cure gay!" ones.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I just think that as long as they aren't pushing it on anyone else to let them lead their life their own way if it's what makes them happy.It always makes me :( when I see people post/say something like this. Don't you see the inherent contradiction?
Originally posted by Groldar
Anyone who disagrees that people shouldn't be able to live the life the want to live if they're not hurting anyone else, Mill, is a fucking idiot.I'm sure you have a very solid justification for this position to be so vehement in your endorsement. Care to share?

[Groldar]

Latrinsorm: I'm not going through the whole argument. You know what I'm going to say, and I know what you're going to say.


I stated the premise and it holds. And regardless of what you and your right-wing christian coalition buddies think, its the driving force throughout most of the intellectual and modern world.

[Ebondale]

Latrinsorm - Are you saying that people don't deserve to do what makes them happy in life?

[CrystalTears]

Obviously I don't see the contradiction. People living their own life their own way impedes on no one else unless they make it their business to know and choose to get upset over it.

[Groldar]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Obviously I don't see the contradiction. People living their own life their own way impedes on no one else unless they make it their business to know and choose to get upset over it.


/signed

[xtc]

I haven't read all 6 pages, however on this issues there are militants on all sides. If someone wants to go to a program like exodus because they are unhappy as a homosexual, they should be allowed to. If someone is happy as a homosexual they shouldn't have to go to exodus.....end of discussion.

[Edited on 6-13-2005 by xtc]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Ebondale
Latrinsorm - Are you saying that people don't deserve to do what makes them happy in life? I am, unequivocably. There are things (homosexuality does not fall into this category) that make people happy that are absolutely unacceptable. Check out a few episodes of Law and Order SVU if you don't believe me, or open up a history book.
Originally posted by CrystalTears
Obviously I don't see the contradiction.You desire your "don't push anything on anyone" philosophy to be pushed on anyone who chooses to push a philosophy that doesn't agree with yours. A version of "intolerance is intolerable", if you will.
Originally posted by Groldar
Latrinsorm: I'm not going through the whole argument. You know what I'm going to say, and I know what you're going to say. I actually don't. :(

[DeV]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Check out a few episodes of Law and Order SVU if you don't believe me, or open up a history book.He could also check out the film, "Our Fathers" which details the child abuse scandals of Catholic priests. Very poignant depiction.

[Ebondale]

I am, unequivocably. There are things (homosexuality does not fall into this category) that make people happy that are absolutely unacceptable. Check out a few episodes of Law and Order SVU if you don't believe me, or open up a history book.

Getting sadistic pleasure from torturing and killing people is a lot different than gaining happiness from being able to openly love someone of the same sex. You can't even compare the two.

[Groldar]

Lantrinsorm: present a counter argument with points. And further your point that there are some things that are "ABsolutely unacceptable" thats a really bold statement man.

[Groldar]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Check out a few episodes of Law and Order SVU if you don't believe me, or open up a history book.He could also check out the film, "Our Fathers" which details the child abuse scandals of Catholic priests. Very poignant depiction.

Thats someone hurting someone else.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Groldar

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Check out a few episodes of Law and Order SVU if you don't believe me, or open up a history book.He could also check out the film, "Our Fathers" which details the child abuse scandals of Catholic priests. Very poignant depiction.

Thats someone hurting someone else. Exactly, but the priests were truly enjoying themselves, and even used God's name to further perpetrate their crimes of "passion".

In any case, that is very much the reply I intended for Latrinsorm.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Ebondale
Latrinsorm - Are you saying that people don't deserve to do what makes them happy in life? I am, unequivocably. There are things (homosexuality does not fall into this category) that make people happy that are absolutely unacceptable.

And we are discussing homosexuality so I'm not sure why you would want to bring up other unacceptable practices into this.


Originally posted by CrystalTears
Obviously I don't see the contradiction.You desire your "don't push anything on anyone" philosophy to be pushed on anyone who chooses to push a philosophy that doesn't agree with yours. A version of "intolerance is intolerable", if you will.[/quote]

Heh, you kinda lost me here. I shouldn't push a live and let live on someone who insists on pushing their own philosophy?

Considering that the live and let live person isn't telling anyone else how to be but this philosopher is, I still don't get the contradiction of what I was saying. Please elaborate.

[Nieninque]

Latrinsorm is saying that by having a do what you want unless you hurt others, it impinges on the rights of people who want to do what they want AND affect other people's lives experiences.

Pretty fucking stupid thing to be arguing, but there you go :shrug:

Bloody Christians

[Delirium]

So I'm just wondering. This isn't an attempt to troll, etc. But seriously whats up with the drastic number of posts about homosexuality, etc. on these boards? It makes no sense to me why everyone is so fixated on it as a topic of discussion.

Some topics will just bring forth opinions from people. Abortion, homosexuality or war in iraq. If you feel strongly one way or the other, you feel compelled to give your opinion. If you were here in late 2002 and early 2003 it seemed like every other post was about the iraq war. Basically the same topics and same arguments a lot of time but once in a while id gleen some information i had previously been ignorant of.

As for what Latrin is saying, i kind of agree with him. No one knows what kind of people the parents are. Who knows if they are out running around preaching homophobia on the corners of streets. This is their son so they have a vested intrest in it. They very well might have a "live and let live" attitude with people in general. Tolerance goes both ways. You can not sit back and preach to be tolerant of others and then vilify and demonize anyone who disagrees with one of your views. It makes you just as bad(extreme) as them.

Unfortunately we can not choose our family. My girlfriends aunt is like that. If she doesnt love you, she is a very classy woman who doesnt shove any opinions on you. Tho god forbid if she does love you, she pushes to the point of exhaustion. Im thankfully on the outside of that but i see the annoying consequences of being loved by said woman.

[Warriorbird]

It's just Latrin quibbling to try to defend the "cure gay" camps. The "between consenting adults" or people who are able to consent by law shouldn't have to be stated.

[Artha]

Bloody Christians
The vast majority don't hurt anyone with their worship or faith. A few bad apples isn't any reason to be a bigot and is a bit hypocritical.

[Warriorbird]

The same could be said of Islam, but that doesn't stop conservatives from bagging on them all the damn time.

[Delirium]

That doesnt stop *some* conservatives from bashing on them. I consider myself conservative and i dont think the religion(Islam or Christian) as a whole is bad apples. I think its important to view things in a shade of grey. Viewing something as all good or all bad is a distorted thinkers viewpoint.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Artha

Bloody Christians
The vast majority don't hurt anyone with their worship or faith. A few bad apples isn't any reason to be a bigot and is a bit hypocritical.

I am neither a bigot nor a hypocrite.
Nice try though.

Originally posted by Nieninque

Bloody Christians

I am neither a bigot nor a hypocrite.
Nice try though.
Yeah, ya are. You might not see it.

Originally posted by Warriorbird
The same could be said of Islam, but that doesn't stop conservatives from bagging on them all the damn time.
"Radical" Islam is banged, most "conservatives" tend to qualify it with that word.

[Edited on 6-13-2005 by Dave]

[DeV]

Fight fire with fire. Nothing wrong with that.

When [some] (most) christians, stop misrepresentating the bibile in their condemnation of homosexuality, that stance will no longer have to be taken. When adultery, which is very well documentated as being sinful takes its place we'll all be on a much more even keel.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Nieninque

Bloody Christians

I am neither a bigot nor a hypocrite.
Nice try though.
Yeah, ya are. You might not see it.

Fuck off Mister "I R NI TEH RMEE ADN THEY R PIKIN ON ME"

Explain how I am either a bigot or a hypocrite.

If i was to make comments about people of African decent the way you do about Christians...

[Artha]

I am neither a bigot nor a hypocrite.
Sure.


Latrinsorm is saying that by having a do what you want unless you hurt others, it impinges on the rights of people who want to do what they want AND affect other people's lives experiences.

Pretty fucking stupid thing to be arguing, but there you go
In other words, "If someone does something isn't hurting anyone else, it's ok."


Bloody Christians
In other words, "I wish those Christians weren't around."

Maybe I'm missing something, but since the vast majority of Christians aren't hurting anyone with their worship, and the vast majority of homosexuals aren't hurting anyone with their love making, disliking one is much akin to disliking the other. And, if you're saying that it's wrong to dislike one group but very much alright to dislike another group of the same sort, that'd make you a hypocrit. And since it's not only is it perfectly ok to hate Christians, but you do it as well, that'd make you a bigot.

[Nieninque]

If you were to spell your complaints well, then people would think you were less of a fuckwit thgan you really are.

Anyway, way to miss the monty python quote...

:)

[Warriorbird]

"If i was to make comments about people of African decent the way you do about Christians... "

Then you'd be like certain other board members and I'd respect you even less.

[DeV]

And it's descent, for the record.

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"If i was to make comments about people of African decent the way you do about Christians... "

Then you'd be like certain other board members and I'd respect you even less.

Yes but I would be a bigot just as she is.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Dave
Yes but I would be a bigot just as she is. I don't see her as a bigot.
She has extremely strong opinions which are not easily changed, but she doesn't appear to be one that is intolerant to reason and all opinions that differ from hers.

[CrystalTears]

Maybe I'm missing something, but since the vast majority of Christians aren't hurting anyone with their worship, and the vast majority of homosexuals aren't hurting anyone with their love making, disliking one is much akin to disliking the other. And, if you're saying that it's wrong to dislike one group but very much alright to dislike another group of the same sort, that'd make you a hypocrit. And since it's not only is it perfectly ok to hate Christians, but you do it as well, that'd make you a bigot.

Christians living their life is okay. Homosexuals living their life is okay. Christians and/or homosexuals telling others how to live their life is not okay. I never meant to imply in any way that one is better than the other. Anyone forcing another on how they should live their life is bad.

[Doyle Hargraves]

I don't understand why society frowns on homosexuality the way it does.

Because it's nasty. Unless it's lesbians, then it's hot unless Rosie O'Donnel or Ellen Degeneres is involved.

Quick note: To gay men that actually act like men, this isn't directed towards you.

I don't dislike someone just because they're gay. It's the flaming gay people whose biggest priority in life is to continually remind everybody that they're gay and basically try to "market" their entire existence around that fact.

Gay or straight, you're still (mostly) a man, not a woman. Deal with it, give your purse to your sister and stop playing Barbie dress up. And drop the lisp it makes you sound retarded.

If a guy wants to suck dick, fine, that's his business. The rest of the world doesn't need to be reminded of it 24/7, as most of us don't give a shit and don't wanna hear about it.

When was the last time you saw a "Straight Pride" parade?

[Edited on 6-13-2005 by Doyle Hargraves]

[DeV]

Originally posted by Doyle Hargraves
If a guy wants to suck dick, fine, that's his business. The rest of the world doesn't need to be reminded of it 24/7, as most of us don't give a shit and don't wanna hear about it.
This needs to be directed towards certain Religions. Specifically those who use the bible and their religion as a pulpit to perpretrate hyprocricy and discrimination among people who primarily want to be left alone.

Homosexuality is nasty to you. Cool. I can deal with that.

They(most who have a problem with homosexuality on general principle) do their part in making sure it is not forgotten that they feel we're living in sin. Is it the sexual aspect of the lifestyle that gets under most people's skin? Damn right is my opinion. They are so busy woried about us sinning they fail to see themselves for what they truly are.

We don't want to be reminded of how they feel about us 24/7, as most of us don't give a shit and don't want to hear any more about it.

Once they stop, I reckon, so will we.

I agree with you regarding the Pride Parades. I've attented one and was completely turned off from ever attending another again.

[Snapp]

Originally posted by Doyle Hargraves
It's the flaming gay people whose biggest priority in life is to continually remind everybody that they're gay and basically try to "market" their entire existence around that fact.

What about the straight guys who walk around all day long talking about what chicks they wanna bone non-stop? That's more irritating to me, but I can respect your opinion as long as you aren't trying to force it down someone else's throat.

I agree with you regarding the Pride Parades. I've attented one and was completely turned off from ever attending another again.
Same here... attended one. Definitely not my cup of tea, but whatever floats your boat I guess. :weird:

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by DeV
He could also check out the film, "Our Fathers" which details the child abuse scandals of Catholic priests. Very poignant depiction. I think it was the regular Law and Order that did one about the same topic, but it could have been SVU. The reason I suggested SVU is because it's on about 78 times a day.
Originally posted by Ebondale
Getting sadistic pleasure from torturing and killing people is a lot different than gaining happiness from being able to openly love someone of the same sex. You can't even compare the two.:?: I specifically said I wasn't talking about homosexuality.
Originally posted by Groldar
Lantrinsorm:Latrinsorm.
present a counter argument with points.Counter to what?
And further your point that there are some things that are "ABsolutely unacceptable"God wills it.
Originally posted by CrystalTears
And we are discussing homosexuality so I'm not sure why you would want to bring up other unacceptable practices into this. Because I was asked: "Are you saying that people don't deserve to do what makes them happy in life?"
I shouldn't push a live and let live on someone who insists on pushing their own philosophy?You are caught in a paradox. If you do not believe that people should ascribe to your philosophy, then it is not a moral (meaning shoulds and oughts) philosophy at all. If you do, then the "let live" portion of your philosophy is a cruel joke at best.
Originally posted by Nienenque
Latrinsorm is saying that by having a do what you want unless you hurt others, it impinges on the rights of people who want to do what they want AND affect other people's lives experiences.Close, but not quite. I'm saying that "don't push anything on me, but I get to push stuff on you" is an inconsistent philosophy when two people are talking. The "people shouldn't hurt each other" bit is a seperate topic.
Originally posted by Warriorbird
It's just Latrin quibbling to try to defend the "cure gay" camps.I've come to the conclusion that you purposefully do not read what I post and make up my opinions/positions in your head. I haven't identified your motive yet though, which vexes me a bit. Did I bug you in GS a long time ago or something? I don't think we ever met. For the record anyway, given that I don't believe homosexuality is a choice and I'm not big on encouraging suicide, it'd be awfully silly of me to support a camp like this. I realize of course that you aren't going to read this either, but I don't want anyone getting the wrong idea about me.
Originally posted by CrystalTears
Anyone forcing another on how they should live their life is bad. :(

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by CrystalTears[/i]
Anyone forcing another on how they should live their life is bad. :(

Why the sad face? You're saying it should be okay to force someone to live their life the way you want them to?

Disapprove of gay people. Disapprove of their lifestyle. Tell them that you would never live your life in that fashion if you must. But to tell them how they should live and that they are <insert God fearing statements here> is not right.

I like you Latrinsorm, because I always am inspired by people who are devoted to their faith, however your feelings on this topic is why I'm no longer as religious as I used to be because of people like you who feel this way. :(

[Warriorbird]

"I've come to the conclusion that you purposefully do not read what I post and make up my opinions/positions in your head. I haven't identified your motive yet though, which vexes me a bit. Did I bug you in GS a long time ago or something? I don't think we ever met. For the record anyway, given that I don't believe homosexuality is a choice and I'm not big on encouraging suicide, it'd be awfully silly of me to support a camp like this. I realize of course that you aren't going to read this either, but I don't want anyone getting the wrong idea about me."

Because you vary from being open-minded to shilling for the worst sorts of people. You espouse strong values that I actually could believe in and then stand by or rationalize for those who act against those very values that you hold to.

You weren't thrilling in GS, either, but I don't hold that against you (though that can't be said for everyone on the PC).

[Goldenranger]

Bah, usually quiet but this form of discourse just fucking puts me on edge.



Doyle Hargraves
Because it's nasty. Unless it's lesbians, then it's hot unless Rosie O'Donnel or Ellen Degeneres is involved.


This is your defintion of nasty, you are taking your opinion of a representation of love and presenting it as some universal view. Not only is your defintion of nasty being universalized, but you obviously have some image of lesbians in your head (likely from their representation in pornography and recent advertisements) that is not only NOT a representation of a majority of lesbians but ONLY takes into account nice breasts and beautiful faces while leaving all other qualities aside.



Doyle Hargraves
Quick note: To gay men that actually act like men, this isn't directed towards you.

I don't dislike someone just because they're gay. It's the flaming gay people whose biggest priority in life is to continually remind everybody that they're gay and basically try to "market" their entire existence around that fact.

Gay or straight, you're still (mostly) a man, not a woman.


And now, you want to take your representation of masculinity and manhood and judge all men by the standard which you (and a large part of unquestioning society) have judged as the "correct" gender role and actions to be interpreted as "man" Again I think is universalizing aspect of what it means to be "man" is ridiculous and false. The conflation of sex and gender is something that was widely discussed in the 60's with the Second Wave of feminism. I just can't understand those who on face accept the archetypal roles that constrain "man" and "woman" and condemn others for not conforming.



Doyle Hargraves
The rest of the world doesn't need to be reminded of it 24/7, as most of us don't give a shit and don't wanna hear about it.


Are you fucking shitting me?
The constant in your face approach by corporations through advertisements, movies, and television of straight sex is ok? Fashion's accentuation of parts of the body that represent sexuality in our culture is fine as long as it's on a "hot" woman? The pervasiveness of heterosexuality as an unquestioned norm, and the way in which our society suggests and pushes people to accept these particular representations of humanity as beautiful is disgusting to me.

Do yourself a favor, read Gender Trouble by Judith Butler or really any sociology literature dealing with social construction, realize the differences between different cultures representation of the sexes and maybe you won't be so fast to make these universal statements which are flat out false.

[Delirium]

Come on, that isnt just Doyles view. Its largely societies view. Anything which doesnt conform to it gets attention, good or bad. No matter what isnt the norm it gets attention. If your too tall, too fat, too pretty or whatever people notice. Same with behaviors. If it leads too far from the norm you are gonna get noticed. That seems to be the point of all movements. To push the unaccepted into the normal category. Its a shame but at the current point in time being gay is still not considered normal. Its getting closer but if you believe its there you have isolated yourself too much.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
You're saying it should be okay to force someone to live their life the way you want them to?You're saying it's not ok to jail/restrain an <insert disgusting criminal here> if given the chance?
Disapprove of gay people.I don't. :( Why do people think I do?
I like you Latrinsorm:heart: I like you too!!
Originally posted by Warriorbird
You espouse strong values that I actually could believe in and then stand by or rationalize for those who act against those very values that you hold to. I won't say I'm sorry for defending people I feel are being attacked unreasonably. If I only defended people who agreed with me entirely, I'd have about 12 posts. (Used for illustrative purposes only, I'm not interested in having a big post count.)
You weren't thrilling in GS:saint:

[Edited on 6-14-2005 by Latrinsorm]

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by CrystalTears
You're saying it should be okay to force someone to live their life the way you want them to?You're saying it's not ok to jail/restrain an <insert disgusting criminal here> if given the chance?

Good lord, Latrinsorm, homosexuals are not criminals! Being gay is not a crime, a disease nor an addiction. It's a way of life that's not against the law! Just like you worship your faith, they worship their sexuality. No one is right or wrong in their beliefs and no one can take that away from anyone, nor should they.

[Artha]

No one is right or wrong in their beliefs
Even the people who think that being gay is an addiction or disease?

[CrystalTears]

Think it all you want, just don't try to force the person to believe it as much as you.

Then dont force people to believe the way you do.

[Ravenstorm]

Sure, believe whatever you want.


"The facts are simple," says Charles K. Johnson, president of the International Flat Earth Research Society. "The earth is flat."

Raven

[Doyle Hargraves]

What about the straight guys who walk around all day long talking about what chicks they wanna bone non-stop?

While it doesn't produce disgusting images of mansex in my mind, it can still be annoying to hear some dumbass talk about what a pimp he thinks he is, especially when you know he's completely full of shit because in reality most of his "action" comes from the champagne room, cleaning his wallet out in the process and sending him home with blueballs.

[Doyle Hargraves]

I'm going to state again real quick that I really don't care if somebody is gay. That's their business and I can respect that. It's the flaming types that insist on throwing it in everyone's face that get under my skin.

I'm also going to state that I'm speaking for myself only, since that flew right over your head last time.


This is your defintion of nasty, you are taking your opinion of a representation of love and presenting it as some universal view.

You're right, that's MY definition of nasty. I didn't say I was speaking for the rest of the world. I just assumed that you could figure out that I was stating that as my own opinion and not a fact. I'll spell it out for you next time since you' seem to be incapable of such.


but you obviously have some image of lesbians in your head (likely from their representation in pornography and recent advertisements) that is not only NOT a representation of a majority of lesbians but ONLY takes into account nice breasts and beautiful faces while leaving all other qualities aside.

You left out nice ass.


And now, you want to take your representation of masculinity and manhood and judge all men by the standard which you (and a large part of unquestioning society) have judged as the "correct" gender role and actions to be interpreted as "man" Again I think is universalizing aspect of what it means to be "man" is ridiculous and false. The conflation of sex and gender is something that was widely discussed in the 60's with the Second Wave of feminism. I just can't understand those who on face accept the archetypal roles that constrain "man" and "woman" and condemn others for not conforming.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that carrying around a purse, having penciled eyebrows, shaking your ass like a woman when you walk, talking with that lisp, gossiping about Oprah with your "girlfriends" while you're out trying on new dresses at the mall, and whatever else the flaming types do was considered acting like a man. I'll have to keep that in mind next time.


The constant in your face approach by corporations through advertisements, movies, and television of straight sex is ok?

Yes, yes it is. There's a reason why a pussy is so much easier for you to slip your sausage into than an asshole. One is meant to be fucked, the other isn't.

There's also a reason why producing offspring requires a male and a female.

From a biological standpoint, I think being gay is abnormal because of reproductive reasons. From a social standpoint, I could care less if some dudes wanna blow each other all day long. Just leave it in the bedroom or in the bathroom of the Blue Oyster or wherever they're doing it at.

I don't go around yelling "I'M STRAIGHT AND I'M PROUD OF IT AND I'M GONNA REMIND YOU ALL FUCKING DAY THAT I LOVE PUSSY OMG TITS R00LZ!!!!11 I'M ATTENDING THE STRAIGHT PRIDE PARADE TOMORROW R0X0R!!!!1." in some gay guy's face because I know they could care less and are probably disgusted by the thought of nailing a woman. I also don't try and base everything about my personality over the fact that I'm heterosexual, because at the end of the day, who the fuck really cares except the woman I'm laying pipe to?

If expecting the same in return is too much to ask, that's your problem, not mine.

[Goldenranger]

original example


Doyle Hargraves
It's the flaming gay people whose biggest priority in life is to continually remind everybody that they're gay and basically try to "market" their entire existence around that fact.


new quote

Doyle Hargraves
I don't go around yelling "I'M STRAIGHT AND I'M PROUD OF IT AND I'M GONNA REMIND YOU ALL FUCKING DAY THAT I LOVE PUSSY OMG TITS R00LZ!!!!11 I'M ATTENDING THE STRAIGHT PRIDE PARADE TOMORROW R0X0R!!!!1." in some gay guy's face



Apparantly in the time between our posts gay men have stopped "marketing" their existence as such and instead yell in straight men's faces that they like ass.. wait... FUCKING LOVE ASS AND COKC !!!1! Its news to me, and can you honestly say that such an occurence has happened where someone has run up to you and actually done that? Or do you take photgraphs in newspapers, clips from television and movies, and political debates personally? Yeesh.



Doyle Hargraves
There's also a reason why producing offspring requires a male and a female.


You really attempting to turn the debate to this, last I knew sex did not mean procreation. Since Griswold v. Connecticut contraceptive devices have been legal. Devices that let you have sex without the intention of procreation *gasp*




From a biological standpoint, I think being gay is abnormal because of reproductive reasons. From a social standpoint, I could care less if some dudes wanna blow each other all day long. Just leave it in the bedroom or in the bathroom of the Blue Oyster or wherever they're doing it at.


Come one and all who can not or will not have children as a result of sex. We've all got this wonderful closed off space called the closet or whatever different euphamism you wish to use. Those who are "normal" have characterized us as "abnormal" and we must all rush into hiding so as not to impose a burden upon them. Ignore skimpy bathing suits, lingerie, tanktops on your way into hiding, these are "normal" representations of sexuality that are allowed into public. Don't worry women, the household has become a bastion of privacy again!!! Woot!


Delirium
Come on, that isnt just Doyles view.


You are right, I'm not placing the burden of the subjugation of the "abnormal" or the "abject" upon his shoulder's, it has been an incredibly long process, yet he was one who articulated it to a tee in the crude, antagonistic, normalizing, universalizing aspect that society likes to. My apologies for only attacking you Doyle my beef isn't against you solely

[Nieninque]

So in short, Doyle Hargrieves has nothing against gay men, as long as they aren't shoving it down his throat :yes:

[Groldar]

Originally posted by Nieninque
So in short, Doyle Hargrieves has nothing against gay men, as long as they aren't shoving it down his throat :yes:

Only figuratively, not literally. He's okay as long as they're not flashy abut what he's doing.

=D :wow:

[Doyle Hargraves]

Apparantly in the time between our posts gay men have stopped "marketing" their existence as such and instead yell in straight men's faces that they like ass.. wait... FUCKING LOVE ASS AND COKC !!!1! Its news to me, and can you honestly say that such an occurence has happened where someone has run up to you and actually done that? Or do you take photgraphs in newspapers, clips from television and movies, and political debates personally? Yeesh.

I'm just gonna respond to that quote with another quote, and stop wasting my time arguing with Amelia Bedelia here:


Only figuratively, not literally.

[Edited on 6-14-2005 by Doyle Hargraves]

[Groldar]

gays are good
gay haters are bad


END OF POST, MAKE NEW POST!!11

[Caiylania]

Dave, you make me sad :(

anyways.... from reading those rules let's see.....

"All new Refuge clients will be placed into Safekeeping for the initial two to three days of their program. A client on safekeeping may not communicate verbally, or by using hand gestures or eye contact, with any other clients, staff members, or his/her parents or guardians. In case of a practical need, Safekeeping clients may write down their question or request and show it to another client, staff member, or their parent or guardian"

How the hell does THAT help anyone? wtf.

From the rules:

1. Be honest, authentic, and real.
HE WAS honest, authentic and real. You (the 'refuge' ) are the idiots trying to take that away from him.


9. Say "I love you _____" after each person is finished relating.
So let's force people to say i love you and not mean it. Make i love you a shallow statement and teach kids to lie.

I adore my daughter, if I found out she was gay, I would accept that just as I would accept it just as I will accept what she wants to become, should it be artist, doctor, teacher, number cruncher, maid, or whatever. It is her life and I am there for her.

The worst part of those weeks there, is knowing your parents sent you there.

and as for the harsher, cruel bootcamps, they disgust me even more. For parents to send their kids away to be abused and punished by others is wrong. Mainly because for kids to be treated that way is wrong, and also because to me it is parents taking the easy way out in dealing with issues. Out of sight out of mind for those parents.

THOSE are the weaklings. the parents who can't deal with what their children need. Not the children.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Dave
Then dont force people to believe the way you do.

You're right. It's my wishful thinking that people not tell others how to act and feel. People do whatever they want anyway, so by all means, continue to preach. It's your right. :shrug:

[Skirmisher]

<<Caiylania's Post>>

:heart:

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Good lord, Latrinsorm, homosexuals are not criminals!I wasn't talking about homosexuals, I was talking about "someone". That's why I quoted you saying
You're saying it should be okay to force someone to live their life the way you want them to?which was a response to my displeasure to your statement
Anyone forcing another on how they should live their life is bad. Please note how you said "someone" and "another", not "gay people".
It's my wishful thinking that people not tell others how to act and feel.You're going to drive me mad. :(

[CrystalTears]

You're going to drive me mad.

:lol: You started it!

This thread was about homosexuality. I didn't realize that I had to specificially state (over and over again) that I was talking about just homosexuals in my post. My apologies.

If you want to talk about the ability to preach and control others that have nothing to do with homosexuality, by all means start another thread. You trying to use other extremes and examples just confused the issue.

[DeV]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
You trying to use other extremes and examples just confused the issue. This is his norm. He takes semantics to a new level. You must be sure to specify exactly who-what-when-where-how you are referring to; whatever it may be so that he doesn't feel a need to grasp extra hard at straw logic to draw conclusions.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
This thread was about homosexuality.Yes, it was. However, people (specifically, you and Groldar) seemed to me to be applying a general philosophy to this situation (in the case of Groldar) or moving from this situation to a general philosophy (in the case of you). It was the general philosophy I took issue with, not this particular situation.
You trying to use other extremes and examples just confused the issue. To me, the issue was the other extremes. I'm not going to check each post, but it seems like it was just Dave who disagreed with the sentiment of "this camp sucks" and then only because "it doesn't suck that bad". In my mind, that part of the topic was finished.
Originally posted by DeV
You must be sure to specify exactly who-what-when-where-how you are referring toIt does alleviate misunderstandings. :)
straw logicIt's very peculiar, this is at least the 2nd time I've had someone (probably unintentionally) repeat a (baseless) accusation made by Tsa`ah against me. In any event: I didn't take things out of context, and I don't grasp at straws. You're welcome to try to disprove either of these claims, of course. :)

[DeV]

Originally posted by
Latrinsorm
In any event: I didn't take things out of context, and I don't grasp at straws. You're welcome to try to disprove either of these claims, of course. :) Heh, Tsa'ah said the same thing... funny. Didn't know that.

Disprove the claims that you grasp at straws? Nah. Actions speak louder than words. :yes:

Latrinsorm may be more patronizing than Harmone... :thumbsdown:

[HarmNone]

I've taken out the trash in this thread. Stay on topic. Latrinsorm's sexuality is NOT on topic and is HIS business.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by DeV
Actions speak louder than words.This is an odd thing to say on a text message board. ;)
Disprove the claims that you grasp at straws?My suggestion was to disprove the claim that I do not grasp at straws, thus giving your accusation merit. Naturally, you're free to make wild allegations with no basis in reality, but why would you want to? :?:

[DeV]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
This is an odd thing to say on a text message board. ;)
I said it for the pun of it.


My suggestion was to disprove the claim that I do not grasp at straws, thus giving your accusation merit. Granted... "You're welcome to try to disprove either of these claims, of course." Nah. Actions speak louder than words. Figurately speaking of course.