Dissection of live dog in a public skool.

[Sean of the Thread]

Any comments on this? I'll pull a John Kerry and not give my stance until I know what the popular stance is.

http://www.local6.com/news/4480144/detail.html

[Parker]

Ugh, that's just revolting.

I can understand the desire to teach kids in as effective a way as possible, but with the digestive system, I believe that the teacher could have used a recently-euthanized dog...I was under the impression that the digestive system works for some time after death.

This is up there by the kids who tortured the chickens, and killed the swans. I've no children of my own, but they would NEVER be a part of this lesson.

[Killer Kitten]

I think a better class project would have been to sponsor and try to save a shelter dog,

I think that too many people already regard life as cheap. This just makes it cheaper.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Killer Kitten
I think a better class project would have been to sponsor and try to save a shelter dog,

I think that too many people already regard life as cheap. This just makes it cheaper.

That's a good idea, but I don't think it ends up teaching kids the same thing.

[Parker]

They're obviously learning about anatomy.
I don't think it cheapens life anymore than already done, but I do think that it's a revolting lesson and that chances are, the kids were a bit young to deal with it.

[Mistomeer]

I don't see the problem.
Notes to the parents went home ahead of time and the dog was going to be killed anyway, so why not let people learn from the dog? Better than just taking it out back and shooting it.

[Parker]

I would agree if the dog wasn't alive when they cut it open.

[Kia]

I don't think it was a necessary lesson at a high school level.

Kia

[Leetahkin]

There aren't videos out there to show this as a teaching tool?

I think it's fucking sick. It's telling those kids that if they find an injured animal on the side of the road, it's okay to take it home and and experiment on it like in Biology class. It's going to die anyway!

[ElanthianSiren]

Re-fing-volting. If the dog were euthanized, I'd be fine with it. Even in college, (not graduate or veteranary programs), live animals typically aren't used for anatomy. All of my anatomy/biology subjects were already dead, and I learned insect anatomy, small animal anatomy, and human anatomy just fine as well as system works. That's just excessive.


-Melissa

[Vitruvian]

I also would not sign a release form if I had a child. I can see a frog being killed alive. But come on!!:wtf:
The teacher was a substitute anyhoo, this is prolly just some nut that came off the streets to freak some kids out. Craziness!!

[Edited on 5-16-2005 by Vitruvian]

[Latrinsorm]

I agree with KK wholeheartedly.

[Showal]

[Edited on 5-16-2005 by Showal]

[Showal]

I just typed out a whole long thing and erased it by accident. I am a retard. Anyways, it went something like this.

I've seen the procedure done on dogs, mice, rats, etc. I'm a college graduate looking to go to vet school. It's appropriate for me to view this sort of procedure. I doubt the animal was "awake" in the traditional sense and was most likely properly sedated (as the article stated).

High school kids can learn just as good from their text book, their normal dissection, and some explanation. Maybe not JUST AS GOOD but they probably would understand what's going on enough anyways to know what they're seeing in a live dissection. Most high school kids dont care enough to learn past the traditional high school biology learning. This sort of visual is not appropriate for the people who aren't prepared or who havent decided this is something they want to witness to see if they can "handle it".

I think it's along the same lines as if you brought the high school dissection (i think it's a fetal pig, at least it was in my high school) down to about a 4th or 5th grade class. They'd learn something, but it wouldnt be appropriate.

I dont think the kids will start experimenting on road kill or wounded animals. I do think that sponsoring and fostering a rescue animal to be adopted out would have been more appropriate, but trust me ... both experiences would have been memorable.

[Killer Kitten]

There are prepared animal specimens available from biological supply houses. These are animals that have been euthanized and made ready for dissection, fluids drained, preservative added and veins and arteries dyed different colors to differentiate which is which.

A student doesn't need to see 'the digestive system at work' until they are in medical or veterinary school, and they can observe this just as easily by observing surgeries or seeing it on video.

There is no need to kill an animal in front of a group of children and certainly no need to cut it up alive in a classroom. A very adequate education in anatomy and physiology can be obtained without resorting to either of these extremes.

If a teacher had cut up a live dog and then killed it, however humanely, in front of me as a child I would have had nightmares for years and hated myself for my inaction and inability to save the animal.

I think the lesson was inappropriate, especially for children. If nothing else, it taught them to stand by passively while something was killed and that they could be penalized for an attempt to stop an 'authority figure' from acting in a manner that was wrong. Or even worse, it taught them that killing something was perfectly all right.

[Showal]

I forgot to mention ...

Has anyone seen an adult who thinks they're ready to witness something like this just faint or vomit when the first incision is made? It's not that infrequent ... and they are willingly going in to witness this thinking they're ready.

[Latrinsorm]

Bjerregaard made arrangements for his students to be a part of a dissection of a dog that was still alive.I don't think he did it in an actual classroom. This sentence indicates that the students went to where the dog was, and unless this Bjerregaard guy regularly dissects animals in class, that would be in some kind of medical facility.

[Showal]

I think me and KK must have been writing at the same time. haha

[Showal]

<<This sentence indicates that the students went to where the dog was, and unless this Bjerregaard guy regularly dissects animals in class, that would be in some kind of medical facility.>>

I dont know if that's necessarily true. Non survival operations dont have to be sterile.

If a high-school student is that curious about it, let them find a laboratory that performs an experiment such as this one. It's waaay too sensitive of an issue. High school science != animal physiology.

[DeV]

Talk about your bad ideas.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Showal
I forgot to mention ...

Has anyone seen an adult who thinks they're ready to witness something like this just faint or vomit when the first incision is made? It's not that infrequent ... and they are willingly going in to witness this thinking they're ready.

No, but having to dissect a live cat shooed me away from the prevet program I was in. I know a vet who had the cat in her bio program's bones mounted as an honor to the animal. I think that's the only way I could take that.

-Melissa

edit: I meant take that and not get volatile. I don't vomit or pass out. I get angry.

[Edited on Mon, May th, 2005 by ElanthianSiren]

[Praefection]

This sort of reminds me about a story in Montana (I think) when I was a sophmore in highschool, so around 1995 or 1996.

There was a little girl who couldn't keep her family cats because they were moving or something. She found a 'good' home where the guy said he'd allow her to come visit them. Instead he was a biology teacher who killed the cats and brought them into his class for disection.

Either way what this guy did is sick. I don't think students need to see something alive and then disect it. I know I would have been sick, horrified and probably have nightmares over it. If something is already dead and intended to be used for study, that's okay.

[Leetahkin]

Is it really necessary to dissect in high school? Why can't it be held until Biology in college? I have no idea why I never had to dissect a frog in hs, but I'm really glad for it.

I agree it needs to be done for specific professions; I don't think anyone should be subjected to it.

I'm really surprised the Principal backed up the subsititute teacher in allowing this. Plus I'm skeptical about the note home deal. How many kids have forged their parent's signature on something?

[fallenSaint]

I horribly horribly hate dogs ... that is still just something I dont believe should have been done. Along with that thing where they are trying to pass some law that requires noisy dogs to have their vocal cords cut? What kind of people are we turning into?

[gsplayer]

It's called a vivisection. They happen all the day, every day, all over the world. They're a valuable teaching tool. The animal is always *heavily* sedated, it is not awake, it feels no pain, probably less than it would before it would've been euthanized the usual way.

Notes were sent home to the parents. This was not done in school, they were taken on a field trip as part of a senior-level advanced biology class to a veterinary hospital to view the procedure.

There is nothing to be outraged about unless you're all hippy wicca PETA vegans.

[Showal]

<<This was not done in school, they were taken on a field trip as part of a senior-level advanced biology class to a veterinary hospital to view the procedure.>>

I'm not being sarcastic or facetous when I say this ... but are you getting your information elsewhere? Because if you are, I'd like to read it to get the full story. This link does seem to leave things out.

[gsplayer]

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=847728 5

Google news for vivisection.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Nobody Cares
Is it really necessary to dissect in high school?No higher education is "necessary". However, dissections do provide a deeper insight to biology than can be gleaned from a textbook. I disliked dissections, but I can't deny that I learned from them. That being said, if I had had to kill or dissect living animals, dislike wouldn't quite cover my reaction.

It's good to know more facts about the situation though.

[Showal]

<<http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=847728 5

Google news for vivisection.>>

I like how this news article, which I trust more, doesnt name the sub-teacher while the other one did. The first one was a weird article. This new article makes the incident seem more humane, but I still would argue how appropriate it was. I just don't think it was a necessary or even beneficial addition to the normal high school science cirriculum (even an advanced senior class). I had more in depth classes for 4 years of college and when I saw my first, I was able to understand what I was seeing. Had I seen it halfway through my first semester, I would have been lost and disgusted.

[CrystalTears]

Wow, what's next? Dissecting a half-live cow to see how the stomach digestion works? Give me a break. There was no need to witness this type of biology/anatomy at the high school stage. If students are really interested in that, they can find alternative means. That's just.. so wrong.

Dissecting frogs and cow eyes was bad enough. Something living is just... :barf:

[Edited on 5/16/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Brattt8525]

With the technology we have today they surely could do something lifelike on a computer to illustrate this I would think.

I would have kept my children home most definitely.

[Wezas]

http://images.ibsys.com/2005/0512/4482265.jpg

Enough said.

[Showal]

Actually ... slightly off topic ... but I saw this thing on TV once about how they made a program to train students for surgery on a human. They took a prisoner (against his will), froze him and sliced him up into thin pieces and scanned each one into a computer. - one part of the last sentence was a joke, guess which ... you're right, they didnt freeze him first - This allowed them (the scientists) to construct a program that when you made an "incision" in the virtual surgery, it would literally have the appearance of going through several layers of tissue etc and be very life-like.

Of course anyone who's ever made one will agree with me, there's no stranger feeling than your first incision into living flesh. So how good of a trainer beyond some education into seeing all the parts of a human in a much more lifelike setting than a textbook, I don't know. I also don't know how much a school or even an institution would want to spend to produce such a costly educational tool. It's probably more easily done now and cheaper, but I imagine I could not afford to produce one and we all know I've got Jay-Z money.

[Snapp]

Originally posted by Wezas

Enough said.
My thoughts too.. he looks like a loon. What kind of substitute teacher makes these decisions? When I was in high school, all the subs did was sit there and read while we did busy work.

[DeV]

I was thinking the same thing Snapp, especially considering he's a substitute teacher. Come on now. Looking like his hair's about to fly off his head.

[Back]

Dude looks like an evil clown.

Good example of how one story can change depending on the source.

[cookiemonster]

Frankly I'd rather have done a vivisection any day in school than busiwork at age 15.

[Doyle Hargraves]

Originally posted by Wezas
http://images.ibsys.com/2005/0512/4482265.jpg

Enough said.

He looks just like that mad scientist guy from Creepshow in the cockroach scene.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by cookiemonster
Frankly I'd rather have done a vivisection any day in school than busiwork at age 15.

At age 15, I was in my first year of community (junior) college, and I had very little busywork. High school is moronic imo.

-Melissa

[Divinity]

I can debate this back and forth and be all frothy about it, but my mind ends up with this..

Jesus christ, that's just fucking sick and wrong.


(Sorry for the swearing.)

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren

At age 15, I was in my first year of community (junior) college, and I had very little busywork. High school is moronic imo.

-Melissa

Maybe your high school experience was a bad one, but I tend to think that it is mostly what you make of it.

The classes I was less interested in I did so so in, but those I enjoyed and took all the honors and ap courses I could in were quite enlightening and much of them have stayed with me ever since.

I would place at least two of my high school history courses up against any of the extensive college history courses I took with the exception of perhaps 400 level stuff.

[Sean of the Thread]

To me it just seems that they decided they could put a value on the life of this dog.

Also.. It is just highschool. Highschool is just a fucking joke and I feel this sort of study should be limited to pupils in college in the chosen field. I took biology in college as just a general requirement and I could never find a moment during the course where doing this would have aided my education in any regard (MIS major). Doing shit like this in highschool is even more retarded to me.

[gsplayer]

Originally posted by Xyelin
To me it just seems that they decided they could put a value on the life of this dog.

Also.. It is just highschool. Highschool is just a fucking joke and I feel this sort of study should be limited to pupils in college in the chosen field. I took biology in college as just a general requirement and I could never find a moment during the course where doing this would have aided my education in any regard (MIS major). Doing shit like this in highschool is even more retarded to me.

What? No. There was no price on the dog's life. It was free to go witness the vivisection. It was going to be done regardless of if there were CONSENTING students there, with their PARENT'S CONSENT. If the students didn't want to be there, they should have perhaps opted out like the other two students did.

Dogs are a dime a dozen. This one was aggressive and was unable to be trained to be able to sustain the rest of his of his life with a human being. It would've been euthanized anyways, this is just euthanization where the dogs serves some value to the veterinary community.

The dog was sedated. It felt nothing, it was dead before it was put on the table, so to the speak, because it never woke up. Just like thousands of dogs, cats and horses have done so before it.

[Sean of the Thread]

Wow you took that the wrong way. Regardless this was pointless and did nothing for the veterinary community. These were highschool students.

[gsplayer]

Originally posted by Divinity
I can debate this back and forth and be all frothy about it, but my mind ends up with this..

Jesus christ, that's just fucking sick and wrong.


(Sorry for the swearing.)

Fucking sick and wrong? It died thousands of times more humanely than any of the tens of thousands of meat bearing animals that are killed daily for big mac's and whoppers.

Think of it this way - the vets were doing the vivisection on the dog to both get the students interested in veterinary medicine, and to improve their own knowledge of how the digestive system of a dog works. The aggressive, untrainable dog who was going to die anyways died humanely so that your fido could potentially live, next time you bring him in with a digestive tract infection.

[gsplayer]

Originally posted by Xyelin
Wow you took that the wrong way. Regardless this was pointless and did nothing for the veterinary community. These were highschool students.

See, I like using facts and reasoning to support my conclusions. You don't. That's where we differ.

[Back]

All it showed was how desperate the local station in your area is for ratings/advertising $$.

They didn’t even lie to do it. They just left out facts.

[Sean of the Thread]

No need to support my conclusion. It is my OPINION that this is a waste on the highschool level. Nothing more nothing less but it is still my opinion.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Backlash
All it showed was how desperate the local station in your area is for ratings/advertising $$.

They didn’t even lie to do it. They just left out facts.

I heard a snip of it on CNN and then looked up the article.

[gsplayer]

Originally posted by Xyelin
No need to support my conclusion. It is my OPINION that this is a waste on the highschool level. Nothing more nothing less but it is still my opinion.

Still, these were AP students with a small class size, these weren't your run-of-the-mill jackass highschooler. They had an interest in biology, I'm sure that this was of at least SOME value to these students.

[Divinity]

Originally posted by gsplayer

Originally posted by Divinity
I can debate this back and forth and be all frothy about it, but my mind ends up with this..

Jesus christ, that's just fucking sick and wrong.


(Sorry for the swearing.)

Fucking sick and wrong? It died thousands of times more humanely than any of the tens of thousands of meat bearing animals that are killed daily for big mac's and whoppers.

Think of it this way - the vets were doing the vivisection on the dog to both get the students interested in veterinary medicine, and to improve their own knowledge of how the digestive system of a dog works. The aggressive, untrainable dog who was going to die anyways died humanely so that your fido could potentially live, next time you bring him in with a digestive tract infection.

No matter how someone words it, or what was wrong, it was still alive.

It doesn't sit right with me. If it was going to be euthanized, had problems.. whatever.

I don't like it, and I believe it to be sick and wrong.

To each their own.

[Parker]

I'm with Divinity. The dog was alive, and that was just a bit twisted. If they were going to euthanize it anyways, do that first, and THEN cut it open...otherwise, it's a little sick.

[CrystalTears]

So because the dog wasn't made into a meat popsicle, we're supposed to thank them for it and allow these types of procedures to occur in a high school?

Disagree with people who aren't in favor of such things, but don't insult their opinion for it. I'm with Divinity where it was just sick (YES SICK AND WRONG!) to perform the procedure on a live specimen where there is NO need to go to that extreme in a high school environment.

As I said before, dissecting a frog and a cow's eye was plenty for me to know if I wanted to go into medicine or not. Actually I would think you would lose your nerve with an experiment like that so early, but that's just me.

[xtc]

Originally posted by gsplayer

Originally posted by Xyelin
No need to support my conclusion. It is my OPINION that this is a waste on the highschool level. Nothing more nothing less but it is still my opinion.

Still, these were AP students with a small class size, these weren't your run-of-the-mill jackass highschooler. They had an interest in biology, I'm sure that this was of at least SOME value to these students.

These were High School biology students in a small town in Utah, population 2300. It is a rural community. It was unnecessary; the guy is a SUBSTITUTE teacher. Really how many of these kids in a rural farming community were seriously considering a future as a veterinarian? Even if they were, there are better ways to generate interest than dissecting a live dog. If anything it could have the opposite effect and put them off a career as a veterinarian. A computer model would have demonstrated the digestive system as effectively. As has been said here several times this was inappropriate and unnecessary for High School students.

[Showal]

Originally posted by Xyelin
Wow you took that the wrong way. Regardless this was pointless and did nothing for the veterinary community. These were highschool students.

I've said a few times that I feel this is inappropriate for high school students but I do agree with a lot that gsplayer is saying.

I am a firm believer of whatever knowledge can be gained from an animal that is going to be euthanized should be gained. Now there are some limitations on that, of course ... but when a procedure is not a survival operation, it generally is very humane. The animal did not feel any pain and the vets did learn from the animal. I don't think it's sick or disgusting. Like I've said, I've seen it done a few times. I even have donated money to foundations that fund research to further vet medicine so like gsplayer said ... when a dog is brought in with such and such disease, they'll have a better understanding of the situation. It only serves to help animals in the long run.

And about them putting a price on the dog ... yes, they did. Prices are put on animals and people every day. It's called research.

Now I've said a few reasons why I feel it was inappropriate for high school students. I dont feel I need to repeat them all again but I just want to state that the students could not have understood with their limited understanding of the digestive system what they were witnessing ... it was inappropriate. They could, however, be made more curious in vet medicine ... which could be a beneficial experience.

[Showal]

No matter how someone words it, or what was wrong, it was still alive.

It doesn't sit right with me. If it was going to be euthanized, had problems.. whatever.

I don't like it, and I believe it to be sick and wrong.

To each their own.

Procedures like this are done every day. Surgery is performed on animals and people daily ... they're kept alive and are sedated/anesthized. I know surgery is a procedure to correct something ... but this is at least similar in the way that they're doing something for a "greater good". The procedure does help with learning, at least.

[Showal]

<<I'm with Divinity. The dog was alive, and that was just a bit twisted. If they were going to euthanize it anyways, do that first, and THEN cut it open...otherwise, it's a little sick.>>

An in-vivo procedure allows you to see the function of something while the animal is still alive. Euthanizing the animal first would make it so the digestive system does not work anymore. That means you could not learn anything about the function of the system, you could only make inferences.

[CrystalTears]

Alrighty then. Let's have live people performing sex to show how sex is done correctly during sex ed. Explaining and showing with animated or computer graphics is just not enough anymore. /sarcasm

I mean c'mon now. We're not saying that they shouldn't learn the process. Some are saying that having children dissect a still living animal, and an animal that we have as pets which makes it harder by the way, is just an unnecessary level, IMHO.

[Showal]

I wasn't debating the inappropriateness of the demonstration. I mentioned that many times in my past posts. What I was getting at was that the procedure is not as sick and twisted as it's made out to be. The procedure itself, I mean. The procedure is a very valuable tool.

[HarmNone]

Oddly enough, I find I am quite able to visualize the digestive process without ever witnessed said process in progress in any living entity. It's not really all that difficult if you understand it from explanations you get in human anatomy and biology.

By understanding the workings of muscles, and the various organs involved, you can easily visualize the process of digestion (at least, in my case). You know where the various processes of food breakdown occur, and what happens as food passes through the system. The need to actually SEE it happen seems a bit superfluous to me. :shrug:

AP doesn't mean shit.

Case in point. For some reason my school shoved me in a bunch of AP classes for some unknown reason. I just ended up skipping school, getting shit faced, partying, and smoking weed and other less than legal stuff. Yeah, AP *ALWAYS* means that you're highly motived and you really should be watching dogs getting sliced up.

[Showal]

I understand that using textbooks you can get a good (even almost complete) understanding of the digestive system. That information, however, was put in that textbook after being heavily researched ... the described procedure is one of the methods used to research that particular system.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Showal
I understand that using textbooks you can get a good (even almost complete) understanding of the digestive system. That information, however, was put in that textbook after being heavily researched ... the described procedure is one of the methods used to research that particular system.

That may well be, Showal. However, highschool students had absolutely nothing to do with that research, nor are they prepared to participate in it. That research is done by those with a far more in-depth education. That, in my opinion, is as it should be.

Knowing what we know, there is little difficulty in formulating a computer-generated simulation of the digestive process. For the young students' learning needs, such a simulation would be more than sufficient, I think.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by HarmNone

Originally posted by Showal
I understand that using textbooks you can get a good (even almost complete) understanding of the digestive system. That information, however, was put in that textbook after being heavily researched ... the described procedure is one of the methods used to research that particular system.

That may well be, Showal. However, highschool students had absolutely nothing to do with that research, nor are they prepared to participate in it. That research is done by those with a far more in-depth education. That, in my opinion, is as it should be.

Knowing what we know, there is little difficulty in formulating a computer-generated simulation of the digestive process. For the young students' learning needs, such a simulation would be more than sufficient, I think.

That was my point exactly. Wait for a college level student in the chosen field to experience this sort of "event". I did like disecting marine animals in "MARINE BIOLOGY" on the college level.. go figure. (I also knocked up my ex wife on a field trip to the Florida Keys in marine biology lab) so I guess it was Marine Biology/Lab/Vagina Anatomy on a field trip. I sign up for the right courses lemme tell ya.

[Showal]

I agree. That's why I said for the high school students it was inappropriate. For vet/college students in that field, it is not inappropriate. I was just mentioning why a procedure is used and why it's beneficial to posts like the ones by Divinity and Parker. I understand that by taking the face value of the operation, it's not pretty and it's disgusting. It is still a valuable learning tool.

[Showal]

We can say vagina on here? I'm going to say it all the time now.

It looks like me and Xyelin were writing at the same time.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Showal
We can say vagina on here? I'm going to say it all the time now.

It looks like me and Xyelin were writing at the same time.

Penis penis penis.. vagina vagina vagina!!!

I and agree with your prior post. It is beneficiary for those in that field.

[Showal]

<<Penis penis penis.. vagina vagina vagina!!!>>

:mackey:

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Showal
<<Penis penis penis.. vagina vagina vagina!!!>>

:mackey:

Mr/Miss Mackey wouldn't do a live disection either =P

[Showal]

Jimmy would.

:crutches:

[Edited on 5-17-2005 by Showal]

[Divinity]

I can see how people would think the procedure to be beneficial. I still disagree with it.

I don't need it explained. I find it sick and wrong. ::shrugs::