Thieving and GM involvement -Warning- Rant

[cookiemonster]

Well, I'm venting a bit so bear with me.
It's late, I happen to stop outside the gate in the landing and I catch a little guy's hands in my pockets.
No big deal.
I lop off his head and ask him to return the items. He refuses, so I lop off his head again. About this point I get a send from some GM that I'm allowed one kill per theft.
Keep in mind that no one's reported, no one's complained, and everyone's RPing in grand fashion..
Well, I told them we're doing fine and if we need them we'll call.
The guy decays (still rping) and I hunt him down again to retrieve my items, and he runs. Ok, I happen to be a rogue myself so this is no problem (since when did we steal from each other? What kind of rogues are these guys??).
I find him and pick his pockets, but I only pull 179 silver. Bah!
So I wait till he's outside and Wham!
Off with his head!
Immediately I'm sitting in the consultation lounge with Zyllah the wicked.
Now, I've never dealt with this GM before but it's now my opinion she's a bitch. She meddled in affairs that had nothing to do with her and when I asked her why she made jokes and sent me to read "policy".

Frankly I'd like to see her fired. Especially if that character that was playing in my pockets happened to be hers, which I suspect.

Here's my question...Should the GM have gotten involved?

Oh, and before you ask, the stolen items were just junk, and yes my stuff should have been closed. That aside, what do you think?

[Kainen]

Zyllah is indeed a bitch.. and no she shouldnt.

[HarmNone]

Was the guy you killed for stealing from you a friend of yours? Someone you could trust? If not, how can you be sure that person didn't Report? The number of people who use Report, then deny having used it, could probably populate a small town. ;)

[cookiemonster]

I'm positive he didnt report, Zyllah said as much.

[HarmNone]

That is really weird, from a couple of angles. Zyllah, as a GM, shouldn't have referred to whether he Reported, or not. Secondly, if the character was hers, does she have any reason to be baiting you into trouble, or could someone who was standing around watching have Reported?

In a game that big, it would really surprise me if a GM "just happened" to be watching when something like that occurred. It's just too much of a coincidence. There's something involved here of which we aren't aware. I'd bet on it.

[cookiemonster]

Entirely what I thought. No one was watching, so a third party report is unlikely. She was very flustered when I cornered her on it (for over an hour) so I'd imagine she's not supposed to have said a lot of what she did, but she did anyway.
We were both pissed.
Her reasoning is that she happened to see it and got involved.

[HarmNone]

I have a little trouble with the "happened to see it" part. It's possible, but highly unlikely. Could there have been someone invisible, or in hiding, that you weren't aware of? Also, does she have any reason to be watching you?

[cookiemonster]

No invisible people, and no reason to be watching me.
I had one warning early on (five years ago?) for scripting.
Other than that I've been a model citizen.

My thinking again is that she WAS this character and was rescuing it, though I've no proof obviously.

[HarmNone]

Ish. If that's the case, that really does suck. The whole thing is just weird. Zyllah isn't a name I recognize, so she must have come along after my departure from the game.

[TheRoseLady]

Harmnone, I am sure you know who that GM is, character wise. I've known her almost since my start which will be 10 years in August. She's been around maybe 9 years. Here's the rub with her.... I have always liked her and have gotten along very well...but I've seen and experienced her with merchants who are less than kind.

She created one of my most favorite EVER items in the game. When I encounter her with my character(s) it's great, but I had my IC husband on the WD and he basically got treated badly by her merchant. Many folks have complained about her "over" policing, including hosts who have to endure her watching their every move.

I would not be a bit surprised if she wasn't watching the area outside the north gate, it's a prime area for thieves to try and steal and it's also a good area to get your head removed.

[Gan]

I'd follow up with a letter to feedback with the log of the consultation visit so at least her managers/supervisors are aware of her inadequacies.

This of course, will do nothing.

- Arkans

[Gan]

You never know when a hail mary shot will land in the 10 ring. If anything you are on record for complaining against this GM so if she starts talking this guy then he has started the paper chain to get her of his back.

Sure, then next thing you know you're slammed harder than other people by GMs. Sit down, shut up, nod, smile, and play their game or you're just going to be in a world of hurt.

- Arkans

[fallenSaint]

Yea complaining about a GM like that seems very similar to complaining about a cop in a small town ... mise well just move out after that.

[Kitsun]

Your actions were more than a bit out of line.

1. You can gank someone once for thieving.
2. Then you killed him again.
3. Then you stole from him
4. And killed him again.

It doesn't sound much like roleplaying more than it sounds like showing off their killing prowess. A GM in their right mind would have stepped in and told you to find a new hobby.

Someone snatched 'junk' and you've given them enough death sting to take a good long while to burn off.

[StrayRogue]

I'll make a judgement when I see a log.

[Gan]

Originally posted by Arkans
Sure, then next thing you know you're slammed harder than other people by GMs. Sit down, shut up, nod, smile, and play their game or you're just going to be in a world of hurt.

- Arkans


Originally posted by fallenSaint
Yea complaining about a GM like that seems very similar to complaining about a cop in a small town ... mise well just move out after that.


I disagree. Acquiesence is not the answer to injustice. The only thing you do by laying down for any maltreatment is encouraging more against you as well as simply encouraging the behavior outright.

Not saying you were in the right or wrong with the reasoning you were pulled and made to read policy. However if you feel you were treated unfairly or unprofessionally then you should follow up on it. Will it bring more attention down on you? Perhaps, but if its retalitory attention then you have just that much more ammo to get rid of the inadequate GM. On the flip side, if you play the game in the grey area of the rules then expect to get stung and expect there not to be much recourse.

Give me a break, given the nature of Gemstone, the staff do and will cover for themselves and has "addicted" customers, people will continue to shell out l3wt.

- Arkans

[Liberi Fatali]

Originally posted by Arkans
This of course, will do nothing.

- Arkans

Arkans, Arkans, Arkans! Feedback is marvelous. I need not remind you of the 7x heavily crit weighted self-mana e-wave weapon I got back via feedback. I also was rewarded a 5x RPA via feedback when the justice system fucked up on me. I was also unbanned from the official boards after feedback reviewed my log and deemed GM Ophion wrong.

It really does help sometimes.

Tabor.

Feedback plus a lot of negative publicity on staff works, not feedback alone.

- Arkans

[Makkah]

Gotta agree with Kitsun here if your account is accurate. You kill someone over and over... at what point does it get old to have a pissing contest with a n00b thief?

[Doyle Hargraves]

A GM has absolutely no reason to pull him if the other guy didn't report him. For all they know, both people could have been in on it and had a perfectly good RP situation utterly ruined by a GM with too much time on their hands. It wouldn't be the first time.

If I were you, I'd write to feedback about it (include the log too) and then do the same on the official boards, as it will be read by a lot more Simu employees than it would be on these forums, and should incite a riot among the players that read and post there. Be sure and give us the link to it, and let us know what feedback tells you too.

This is all assuming nothing was left out of the story of course.

[Edited on 5-15-2005 by Doyle Hargraves]

[Sylph]

If no Report... she should have stayed out of it...


If he reported then yeah I can understand why... I catch a thief; I kill the thief... if he then starts bothering me then I kill 'em again but I dont' go looking for him.

[Alfster]

>>(since when did we steal from each other? What kind of rogues are these guys??). <<

I find that certain rogues are the best targets for stealing because they never close their containers and they think it's bad form to steal from another rogue. I personally do not see how this is any worse than stealing from anyone, but some rogues seem to think it is.

[Brattt8525]

I have seen similar incidents where a certain person died many times within a given <short> time and a GM has looked in on them, maybe this is the case here.

[StrayRogue]

Rogues generally are the worst targets as they usually have the best chances of spotting you (due to high perception and PP skill).

[cookiemonster]

Originally posted by Brattt8525
I have seen similar incidents where a certain person died many times within a given <short> time and a GM has looked in on them, maybe this is the case here.


That would have been understandable, but I got my first "send" after the first kill.
Very odd to say the least. The more I read up on Zyllah the more I find other players that have had bad experiences with her too.
She just seems to have a god complex, no pun intended.

And to those of you that suggested feedback@simu, I did that almost immediately after being ghosted to the consultation lounge, believe you me.

I'm still pretty hot about it, but I think posting on the official boards will get me banned. It wouldnt be the first time they've done that I hear.

[Parker]

Well, if it's roleplayed out, and someone dies multiple times, I think that as long as it's a consentual roleplay, there should be no involvement.

[Some Rogue]

Originally posted by cookiemonster
I lop off his head and ask him to return the items. He refuses, so I lop off his head again. About this point I get a send from some GM that I'm allowed one kill per theft.


Originally posted by cookiemonster

That would have been understandable, but I got my first "send" after the first kill.


So, which was it?

[Makkah]

JUKEd

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by cookiemonster
Well, I'm venting a bit so bear with me.
It's late, I happen to stop outside the gate in the landing and I catch a little guy's hands in my pockets.
No big deal.
I lop off his head and ask him to return the items. He refuses, so I lop off his head again. About this point I get a send from some GM that I'm allowed one kill per theft.
Keep in mind that no one's reported, no one's complained, and everyone's RPing in grand fashion..
Well, I told them we're doing fine and if we need them we'll call.
The guy decays (still rping) and I hunt him down again to retrieve my items, and he runs. Ok, I happen to be a rogue myself so this is no problem (since when did we steal from each other? What kind of rogues are these guys??).
I find him and pick his pockets, but I only pull 179 silver. Bah!
So I wait till he's outside and Wham!
Off with his head!
Immediately I'm sitting in the consultation lounge with Zyllah the wicked.
Now, I've never dealt with this GM before but it's now my opinion she's a bitch. She meddled in affairs that had nothing to do with her and when I asked her why she made jokes and sent me to read "policy".

Frankly I'd like to see her fired. Especially if that character that was playing in my pockets happened to be hers, which I suspect.

Here's my question...Should the GM have gotten involved?

Oh, and before you ask, the stolen items were just junk, and yes my stuff should have been closed. That aside, what do you think?

I don't think staff should be involved until a customer has a problem in general. It's a waste of resources. If this person never reported as Zyllah told you, then to me, it was clearly out of their jurisdiction (and as others mentioned could have ruined some scripted RP).

I would never advocate firing a staffer for being over-zealous -- unless you can prove that this character belonged to her, which you can't. I'd write feedback and mention that you'd like the matter looked into by someone more objective, as there are several factors that don't add up: 1. first kill was not outside north gate from your story, yet landed you with a send. Was this person watching every room? -- something is fishy there. 2. customer information was divulged by a staff -- they not supposed to tell you if person reported or not. 3. if you feel you were treated unprofessionally, I'd mention that too.

I can honestly understand your outrage. I'm still waiting for an apology from SIMU for banning/warning me for hacking an account that I already had access to in 2001. I was let back into the game 23 days into a 60 day ban, but the crap still stands on my record. Until that apology is issued, I told myself no pay festivals, no extras etc. That's all you can do IMO. Ditch a premium membership if you're premium. Don't pay for the festivals etc.

-Melissa

[Doyle Hargraves]

I'm still pretty hot about it, but I think posting on the official boards will get me banned. It wouldnt be the first time they've done that I hear.

I seriously doubt that, and I'm sure that nobody has ever been banned from the boards for posting about something similar to your situation.

I'm starting to think you're leaving some details out though, as some inconsistencies are starting to show up in your story, such as your story changing from getting a [SEND] after the 2nd kill to the 1st kill.

How about posting a log? Unedited, of course.

[Edited on 5-16-2005 by Doyle Hargraves]

[Meges]

As others have mentioned, I too will also say; post the unedited log of the WHOLE incident.

Meges

[Makkah]

<<I told myself no pay festivals, no extras etc. That's all you can do IMO. Ditch a premium membership if you're premium. Don't pay for the festivals etc. >>

LOL. Yea... you really showed them.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Makkah
<<I told myself no pay festivals, no extras etc. That's all you can do IMO. Ditch a premium membership if you're premium. Don't pay for the festivals etc. >>

LOL. Yea... you really showed them.

It adds up when you used to attend every event and had two premium accounts :)

Now, I spend the money on tangible goods -- clothes. :D

-Melissa

[cookiemonster]

Send was after the second kill. The other post was an early morning typo.
Log is 700k, not sure if it's OK to post it. (new to the forum)
But I'll post if if admin says OK and ya'll want.

Being the gate there's a lot of "arrived" and whatnot, plus me chasing him thru town.

[ElanthianSiren]

you could probably also post it as a text attachment so those who want to view the whole thing can do so. :shrug:

-Melissa

[Meges]

Post the part where the incident occurred, not the whole session log. I guess that in and of itself is editing, but I simply meant not to edit the relevant information you’re going to show us. Pertinent information with regard to your incident would include any interaction with the thief you killed, the SENDs and the talk you had with Zyllah in the cozy consultation lounge. Don't leave anything out on those points. This "log," compared to some other things posted should not be too terribly long relatively speaking, and certainly not +700Kbs.

Meges

[cookiemonster]

Nope, it's 77k but that's still quite a bit for dialup.
Here it is in attachment form until the first send. I edited out the AS/DS stuff to keep the whining to a minimum. I already said he picked on a much older character.
My reply to the send was something like "We're Rping, no complaints. We'll call you if we need you. Thanks!

I should have said "Mind your business, heifer", but that's hindsight.

Edited to try to add the attachment..again

[Edited on 5-16-2005 by cookiemonster]

[Edited on 5-16-2005 by cookiemonster]

[Doyle Hargraves]

You swing a khopesh at Celeus!
AS: +XXX vs DS: +XXX with AvD: +XXX + d100 roll: +57 = +XXX
... and hit for 117 points of damage!
Quick, hard slash to Celeus's right arm!
*CRACK*

* Celeus drops dead at your feet!

On a slightly unrelated note, what's the deal with some people (not just you, you just happen to be an example :P ) being anal about hiding their AS/CS or whatever?

[Edited on 5-16-2005 by Doyle Hargraves]

[Joe]

I know I don't post often, but I'm pretty "iffy" about logs that edit out the AS/CS/DS/TD numbers. It's like somebody has something to hide.

[Meges]

Just for the sake of guessing, I bet that cleric in the magic shop reported you if it wasn't the guy you killed. And while you might have been “role-playing” this situation, those have been the longstanding rules for a number of years now. If someone steals from you and you catch them, you get the one kill and that's it.

However, in lieu of guessing if someone reported you and who that someone might be, here’s a more likely scenario. If no one reported you, as you stated Zyllah had said, then it was likely GM alarms going off. When you kill another player, "red lights" and alarms go off alerting the GMs to a possible problem. First time, they'll likely overlook it or not pay attention if you're in certain areas like the boulder (which they'll always ignore except in the case of a serious problem), unless someone reports a problem. Second time, however, especially in such short succession, they're going to look into it on their own. She possibly could have been watching from the time you killed him first anyway. Another thing to consider, is when you repeatedly kill someone, it can “disrupt” the game for a number of people not directly involved in the conflict. Like the two clerics chasing after you. Based on this perceived disruption, some GMs will intervene and tell you to knock it off, which is probably what happened to you.

From my point of view and based on the log you disclosed, I don’t see how you were mistreated or how Zyllah really poked her nose into your situation. You killed a guy who stole from you and basically kept any clerics away, which led to his decay. Then you killed him again. I think you’re lucky all you got was a SEND and the consultation you had previously mentioned, but forgot to include in your log. I don’t think your actions warranted an official warning or anything of that nature, which you did not receive, but in today’s GemStone, I think you’re lucky you didn’t get one. Occasional offenders seem to get the hammer, while the snerts manage to somehow bend the rules and live in that gray area rather successfully.

Meges

[Edited on 5-16-2005 by Meges]

[cookiemonster]

As you saw, even to the cleric we said "we're handling it" so the issue should have been closed. At any rate, if you feel she was right to be poking her nose into things I'm not after changing your mind, i just personally feel like kicking her teeth down her throat.
Maybe it's just me, but like I mentioned before I'm not the only person that she's popped in on unannounced and unrequested.

It's like getting arrested for consentual sex. Two willing participants but you get popped anyway.

[Parker]

It's like getting arrested for consentual sex. Two willing participants but you get popped anyway.


Completely unrelated, but I thought this was a funny quote

Kadie: It's not rape, it's surprise sex!



Anyways...

Hiding the AS/DS etc. would only be justified by someone who killed an exceptionally low-level with something astronomically high...say, a 400 AS vs 35 DS...

Even I'd be embarrassed at that.

[Gan]

It was brought to the attention of the GM by either the victim even though the GM said he didnt perhaps to avoid further retribution, or the victim has an IG association with the GM's game character.

Either way its obvious she's using her power of discretionary authority in this case a little more than one would normally see (since folks die multiple times without GM intervention until someone reports or the event escalates to a small tribal war).

I'd like to see the log of the consultation lounge actually, since you made the earlier claim that she was unprofessional there.

As for butting in, she interveined a quicker than others normally do but considering there were multiple opportunities for a [report] by multiple people I'm not sure whether she acted in the wrong or not. If we knew what the GM guidelines are for interveining into a PvP/CvC conflict were then we could probably make a better opinion.

[Parker]

I'm with Ganalon, I'd kill to see that log.

Especially if it gives us solid grounds to start bashing a GM, that sounds like good entertainment for a Monday, right?

[Meges]

Omidawn just arrived.
Omidawn asks, "Need help?"
You gravely say, "No thank you."
The ghostly voice of Celeus says, "Haha mm k." <-- This is called, sarcasm.
Omidawn asks, "Sure?"
You nod to Omidawn.
The ghostly voice of Celeus says, "Yea drag me away from thid dude." <--This is called, he no longer wishes to participate, as you already received payment for his theft.
You gravely say, "And die." <--This is called, threatening any clerics who wish to raise thief.
Omidawn asks, "This a fight?"
You gravely say, "A...disagreement."
You gravely say, "We're in the process of rectifying." <--This is called, a one-sided conversation. Your use of the word "we're" does not imply Celeus' consent.
Omidawn asks, "Doesn't it seem you've already won?" <--This is called, stating the obvious.
You gravely ask, "Right Celeus?"
The ghostly voice of Celeus says, "Yuppers." <--This is called, a misplaced answer to another question, where he was likely responding to Omidawn mentioning you had already won.

-----

It's possible my interpretation might be wrong on the above exchange of words, but considering the circumstances, I doubt it. You keep on saying WE (in the log and here) in your responses, but there is no WE here at all, it's all YOU.

I'm all for death, guts, and gore and the like, but don't try to paint it something it's not.

Meges

[FinisWolf]

Zyllah has always gotten involved more then she should, and she seems to think rather highly of herself, though I am sure others do not. She should not be a GM in my opinion. I have had run ins with her many times, and each time, I have simply went over her head, and had her toes stomped for being DUMB. [This has occured with several different chars on several different accounts. And, by several I would say the two of us have butted heads ... 4 times I guess.]

Finis

Finiswolf

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

You gravely say, "I like Zyllah."

[Forged]

Quick question: Are there more "senior" GM's than normal GM's? If so, a referral sure would be nice in this case.

What went down here is pretty whack. I would be pissed off to all hell if I got pulled out of a really good RP to read the fucking policy when I didn't break it.

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by Meges
Omidawn just arrived.
Omidawn asks, "Need help?"
You gravely say, "No thank you."
The ghostly voice of Celeus says, "Haha mm k." <-- This is called, sarcasm.
Omidawn asks, "Sure?"
You nod to Omidawn.
The ghostly voice of Celeus says, "Yea drag me away from thid dude." <--This is called, he no longer wishes to participate, as you already received payment for his theft.
You gravely say, "And die." <--This is called, threatening any clerics who wish to raise thief.
Omidawn asks, "This a fight?"
You gravely say, "A...disagreement."
You gravely say, "We're in the process of rectifying." <--This is called, a one-sided conversation. Your use of the word "we're" does not imply Celeus' consent.
Omidawn asks, "Doesn't it seem you've already won?" <--This is called, stating the obvious.
You gravely ask, "Right Celeus?"
The ghostly voice of Celeus says, "Yuppers." <--This is called, a misplaced answer to another question, where he was likely responding to Omidawn mentioning you had already won.

-----

It's possible my interpretation might be wrong on the above exchange of words, but considering the circumstances, I doubt it. You keep on saying WE (in the log and here) in your responses, but there is no WE here at all, it's all YOU.

I'm all for death, guts, and gore and the like, but don't try to paint it something it's not.

Meges

:clap:

[Janarth]

The use of "dude", "yuppers" and "mmm kay" do not scream good rp to me. I won't begrude you that you were trying, he wasn't. I have my suspicions he wasn't okay with this rp.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Forged
Quick question: Are there more "senior" GM's than normal GM's? If so, a referral sure would be nice in this case.

What went down here is pretty whack. I would be pissed off to all hell if I got pulled out of a really good RP to read the fucking policy when I didn't break it.

Umm, the answer to your question is: No.
There are fewer Senior GMs.

[Sean of the Thread]

If this thread is going to stay alive I demand to know the outcome! Did you follow up with this or what?

This whole thread sucks because the person who started it has cookiemonster for a handle.

Damn I'm bored.

[cookiemonster]

Hey gang! Been OOT a bit and seriously didnt expect this rant to last this long, but here's an update for those that cared.
I have an awful time holding grudges so unfortunately I'm over it.

1. Snert got away, no warning nothing.
2. I got tagged with a warning AND from now on I'm watched.
How do I know? Well, I killed someone in a game the other day
and got a "remember our chat" send. Funny huh?
I got the deader to report (good friend of mine) that we were
just playing and never heard back. I assume it's ok, but I'm
probably still watched. Ah well. I'm not much of a murderer
anyway.
3. I shy away from playing when Zyllah's on duty. I know she
GM's also work when NOT on duty, but I can't do anything
about that. I take my chances those times.

So in short, I'm keeping my nose clean and staying away from the landing. Oh, and I got a warrant out there now too for killing the snert. Sucks but that's life. :p

That's it. Everything else is back to business as usual.

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