War spending bill passes.

[Sean of the Thread]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/05/10/war.funds/

I've been following this for a bit because one thing silently on this bill is pissing me off. The national I.D. has become a reality now.\
More info. http://www.unrealid.com/

You thought your privacy was fucked before??? Website tracking is now the least of your worries as every purchase you make is possible to be tracked. RFID chips will be able to monitor when you walk into any fucking place from the Gap to the library.

Sad day.

[Parkbandit]

What does that mean for me?
Starting three years from now, if you live or work in the United States, you'll need a federally approved ID card to travel on an airplane, open a bank account, collect Social Security payments, or take advantage of nearly any government service. Practically speaking, your driver's license likely will have to be reissued to meet federal standards.

What's new:
The House of Representatives has approved an $82 billion military spending bill with an attachment that would mandate electronically readable ID cards for Americans. President Bush is expected to sign the bill.

Bottom line:
The Real ID Act would establish what amounts to a national identity card. State drivers' licenses and other such documents would have to meet federal ID standards established by the Department of Homeland Security. The Real ID Act hands the Department of Homeland Security the power to set these standards and determine whether state drivers' licenses and other ID cards pass muster. Only ID cards approved by Homeland Security can be accepted "for any official purpose" by the feds.

Source (http://news.com.com/FAQ+How+Real+ID+will+affect+you/2100-1028_3-5697111.html)

So what's the big deal again? Let's have the facts.. and not some bullshit from a freak site.

[Kefka]

Why do we need one?

[Nieninque]

Bingo!

[Sean of the Thread]

PB I've already read your source and if you made it further than the first 2 paragraphs you would have answered your own question "What's the big deal" and you would have gotten plenty of facts.

I'm a conservative republican and I even think it's bullshit.

[Sean of the Thread]

I really like the reason given that it will help keep illegal immigrants from walking into a nuke plant. Give me a fucking break.

[Parkbandit]

Because each state's identification requirement is different.
It sets a single standard for all American citizens for identification.
Makes security better by knowing the IDs instead of knowing 50 state IDs.

These are just off the top of my head.

Why are you so opposed to a Federal ID card?

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Because each state's identification requirement is different.
It sets a single standard for all American citizens for identification.
Makes security better by knowing the IDs instead of knowing 50 state IDs.

These are just off the top of my head.

Why are you so opposed to a Federal ID card?

I'm opposed to a national I.D. system that invades my privacy.

" Paul has warned that the Real ID Act "establishes a national ID card" and "gives authority to the Secretary of Homeland Security to unilaterally add requirements as he sees fit."

Is this a national ID card?
It depends on whom you ask. Barry Steinhardt, director of the American Civil Liberties Union's technology and liberty program, says: "It's going to result in everyone, from the 7-Eleven store to the bank and airlines, demanding to see the ID card. They're going to scan it in. They're going to have all the data on it from the front of the card...It's going to be not just a national ID card but a national database."

At the moment, state driver's licenses aren't easy for bars, banks, airlines and so on to swipe through card readers because they're not uniform; some may have barcodes but no magnetic stripes, for instance, and some may lack both. Steinhardt predicts the federalized IDs will be a gold mine for government agencies and marketers. Also, he notes that the Supreme Court ruled last year that police can demand to see ID from law-abiding U.S. citizens."

Open up your eyes man.. this ain't about stopping my mexican neighbor from driving to his daily leafblowing or hijacking.

[Edited on 5-11-2005 by Xyelin]

[Parkbandit]

The only people that I can see being against a new Federal ID program are:

1) Criminals
2) Terrorists
3) Illegal Immigrants
4) People with fake IDs
5) People with fake Identities
6) People who think this is more than an ID

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Because each state's identification requirement is different.
It sets a single standard for all American citizens for identification.
Makes security better by knowing the IDs instead of knowing 50 state IDs.

These are just off the top of my head.

Why are you so opposed to a Federal ID card?

I'm opposed to a national I.D. system that invades my privacy.

" Paul has warned that the Real ID Act "establishes a national ID card" and "gives authority to the Secretary of Homeland Security to unilaterally add requirements as he sees fit."

Is this a national ID card?
It depends on whom you ask. Barry Steinhardt, director of the American Civil Liberties Union's technology and liberty program, says: "It's going to result in everyone, from the 7-Eleven store to the bank and airlines, demanding to see the ID card. They're going to scan it in. They're going to have all the data on it from the front of the card...It's going to be not just a national ID card but a national database."

At the moment, state driver's licenses aren't easy for bars, banks, airlines and so on to swipe through card readers because they're not uniform; some may have barcodes but no magnetic stripes, for instance, and some may lack both. Steinhardt predicts the federalized IDs will be a gold mine for government agencies and marketers. Also, he notes that the Supreme Court ruled last year that police can demand to see ID from law-abiding U.S. citizens."

Open up your eyes man.. this ain't about stopping my mexican neighbor from driving to his daily leafblowing or hijacking.

[Edited on 5-11-2005 by Xyelin]

Yes.. because these are all facts you are claiming and not some bullshit conspiracy theories of the Government trying to keep you down.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Let's stick with the facts.. not some freak at the ACLU thinking what could happen. It's a form of ID that will be uniform for the whole country. Nothing more.

[Kefka]

Hmm... if the National ID was that legit, why attach it to a war spending bill? From what I heard, it was turned down the first time, then attached to the war bill cuz who would refuse a bill supporting our troops?

I just find it weird that something concerning domestic issues would be attached to a war bill.

[Atlanteax]

Well, at least with a National ID card... can go out-of-state and can be assured that there won't be any problem with my ID.

.

The next thing they need to do is make English the official language. No more of this bi-lingual crap.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
The only people that I can see being against a new Federal ID program are:

1) Criminals
2) Terrorists
3) Illegal Immigrants
4) People with fake IDs
5) People with fake Identities
6) People who think this is more than an ID

You are dumb. =)

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
The only people that I can see being against a new Federal ID program are:

1) Criminals
2) Terrorists
3) Illegal Immigrants
4) People with fake IDs
5) People with fake Identities
6) People who think this is more than an ID

They are talking of having an ID scheme in the UK too (that George and Tony thang again) and I am against that.

The stated aim is to hold information regarding people up to no good in order to prevent terrorism.

The security services have the information they need about 'ne'er do wells' already, without the ID cards being necessary.

It's a bad idea...I hope the Tories screw up the Government plans on this big time (never thought I would say that).

[Parkbandit]

You have still not given me any facts as to why you are opposed to a Federal ID Program.

I must be living a clean life.. because it means this much difference to me ><

[DeV]

Originally posted by Kefka
Why do we need one?

[ElanthianSiren]

Terrorism, Terrorism, Terrorism. Keep the people afraid and they'll agree to anything.

I agree, this was tacked onto the troops spending bill in the same way that drilling in places like Anwar was tacked onto the energy bill. There isn't a way to veto parts of it, as I understand. It is, accept it all, or accept none of it. Nobody is going to turn down fiscal aid for our troops -- especially no one in Congress who would risk losing their seat over such an unpopular stance.

Like I said before when that "our president, the idiot" thread was started. George Bush, (or the GOP -- Bush is a figurehead), is not an idiot. Manipulative, yes. Arrogant, you bet your ass. Idiot? No way. The image maker, Rove, is no idiot either.

-Melissa

[DeV]

True dat.

[Pallon]

If you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about!!!!11!!!111eleven

If I thought for 0.1 seconds that this would be somehow effective against terrorism, and not just an easy way to harvest my personal information, I would be all for it.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Kefka
Why do we need one?


Originally posted by Parkbandit
Because each state's identification requirement is different.
It sets a single standard for all American citizens for identification.
Makes security better by knowing the IDs instead of knowing 50 state IDs.

These are just off the top of my head.

If the best answer you have for "Why are you opposed to this ID system" is "Why do we need one".. then I win. Hard.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Pallon
If you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about!!!!11!!!111eleven

If I thought for 0.1 seconds that this would be somehow effective against terrorism, and not just an easy way to harvest my personal information, I would be all for it.

No one hates Salespeople more than I do. No one hates spam more than I do. No one hates junk mail more than I do.

I simply believe that this system is NOT INTENDED to harvest personal information.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Pallon
If you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about!!!!11!!!111eleven

If I thought for 0.1 seconds that this would be somehow effective against terrorism, and not just an easy way to harvest my personal information, I would be all for it.

Bingo. The RFID part is rather scary as well. In the moment you walk in the doors at Wal-Mart the homeland security will know it. Could be a good thing as well as a bad thing. What if the British knew exactly where the founding fathers were at any given moment? Extreme but just food for thought.

I enjoy living a free and private life. I just don't need Homeland Security knowing that I just bought a pack of smokes, jimmy hats and KY Jelly at 3:13AM.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Pallon
If you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about!!!!11!!!111eleven

If I thought for 0.1 seconds that this would be somehow effective against terrorism, and not just an easy way to harvest my personal information, I would be all for it.

No one hates Salespeople more than I do. No one hates spam more than I do. No one hates junk mail more than I do.

I simply believe that this system is NOT INTENDED to harvest personal information.

Intended to or not.. it will.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
You have still not given me any facts as to why you are opposed to a Federal ID Program.

I must be living a clean life.. because it means this much difference to me ><

I can answer this for me. I'm opposed, phenominally, into government butting into personal business. I don't like the idea of government knowing what kind of groceries I buy or what my preferred brand of personal lubricant is. That kind of invasion of privacy is the stuff that Communist folklore is based on, and it really surprises me that you DON'T have a problem with it.

Further, it's completely unnecessary for me, as I am not a terrorist. It absolutely assigns guilt before due process. I find it amazing that more people DON'T have a problem with being assigned criminal status prior to comitting a crime.

Further, I'm opposed to immigration policy in this country in general. It blows my mind that we restrict people from coming here, when America's motto on the Statue of Liberty reads: "Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free." Further, if you want to get technical about it -- we should all pack up and leave, unless you're a native american, as we are transplants as well.

Now, on immigration -- I agree policy needs reform. We need a better system, but tightening the belt on immigration to this country only benefits companies like Walmart who pay mexicans 2.00 a day to clean their stores. Also, that wall in California, reminds me of the great wall of china or the berlin wall, and it's just as ridiculous.

-Melissa

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Pallon
If you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about!!!!11!!!111eleven

If I thought for 0.1 seconds that this would be somehow effective against terrorism, and not just an easy way to harvest my personal information, I would be all for it.

No one hates Salespeople more than I do. No one hates spam more than I do. No one hates junk mail more than I do.

I simply believe that this system is NOT INTENDED to harvest personal information.

Intended to or not.. it will.

The Do-Not-Call List will apply to this, I'm certain.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I'm for it.

[CrystalTears]

WTF is the big deal? How exactly does this invade privacy?

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
WTF is the big deal? How exactly does this invade privacy?

WOW.

[CrystalTears]

I honestly don't see the big deal here. Unless you're afraid of them finding something, I don't see the problem with it.

As for the immigration, it needs serious tweeking. However if you come here illegally, I have no sympathy for you.

[Kefka]

# because no compelling case has been presented for its utility or effectiveness as a crime-fighting tool,

# because of its inevitable costs (in dollars, privacy, and liberty), and

# because of its high potential for abuse, by entities in both the public and private sectors.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I honestly don't see the big deal here. Unless you're afraid of them finding something, I don't see the problem with it.

As for the immigration, it needs serious tweeking. However if you come here illegally, I have no sympathy for you.

I agree that immigration is completly fucked. In 3 years when this becomes active I know that Clearwater Florida is going to have 22,000 job openings in a months time. Good jobs too like leaf blowers, lawn barbers, line cooks, car washers etc. And all these hard workers are going to be replaced most likely by 17 year old drop outs.. I can't wait.

As far as having sympathy I guess I have some. I am worried what will happen to these people and their families. Ship them back to where? Put them in mass refuge camps?? They obviously came here to make a better living and if they are here illegally they are going to stay out of trouble. Don't want any heat I'm sure. In all honesty they are very hard working. And they do the jobs that us spoiled brats don't want to do. Fuck no I'm not hanging drywall all day.

But there was that one report of 5 mexicans being smuggled into the prez ranch... mmm. Maybe they are all terrorists.

[Edited on 5-11-2005 by Xyelin]

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I honestly don't see the big deal here. Unless you're afraid of them finding something, I don't see the problem with it.

As for the immigration, it needs serious tweeking. However if you come here illegally, I have no sympathy for you.

You don't see a problem with a violation of the american right to be innocent until proven guilty via evidence?

Even a search warrant requires a judge to find probable cause for that warrant. This throws that out the window for something as miniscule as where you shop and what you buy.

It basically says that this government agency can monitor you at any time they wish and ammend their rules for monitoring without congressional approval. Less power of federal government indeed, only when it's convenient it seems.

-Melissa

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
".. then I win. Hard. What did you win because I want to be a winner just like you.

Seriously though, my question has been answered, and by those who feel the same as I do about this bill. I have absolutely nothing to hide, but what's next...

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Parkbandit
".. then I win. Hard. What did you win because I want to be a winner just like you.

Seriously though, my question has been answered, and by those who feel the same as I do about this bill. I have absolutely nothing to hide, but what's next...

I have nothing to hide either, except what brand my jimmy hats are.

Oh and he was the winner of a ding-a-ling dinner.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Xyelin

I have nothing to hide either, except what brand my jimmy hats are.

:lol: afraid the government chicks will find out and start chasing you all over town. I guess it's a valid concern. Pentagon skirts -- zig heil!

-Melissa

no rubber hats were harmed in the making of this post.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren

Originally posted by Xyelin

I have nothing to hide either, except what brand my jimmy hats are.

:lol: afraid the government chicks will find out and start chasing you all over town. I guess it's a valid concern. Pentagon skirts -- zig heil!

-Melissa

no rubber hats were harmed in the making of this post.

HAHAH ... I changed my mind. I am all for this. I am moving into the pentagon courtyard!!!

[Skirmisher]

There were similar privacy concerns about the EZ-Pass electronic toll payment devices when they were brought into being in the NY/NJ area.

That the govt would act like a big brother watching where everyone goes and such.

In real world applications, the information from EZ-Pass has been used to solve at least one murder that I know of and no one has as yet claimed to have thier privacy invaded in the imagined ways.

I am sure there will be limitations as to which institutions could record information from such a card when presented, and what that data may then be used for. If there are not such limitations in place from the beginning, you can be sure aclu lawsuits and others with similar privacy concerns will do their utmost to ensure that such regulations are emplaced.

I should say that I am a supporter of the ACLU for exactly reasons such as this. I feel they act as a counterweight to many who would give far too much authority to the governement, so go ACLU.


My personal experiences however do cause me to favor thie creation of a national ID card and the drivers license seems a reasonable starting point. I worked in branch level banking for many years and always found myself to be in favor of a standardized drivers license. I figure if it can be difficult for me, sitting in my well lit office and not being under the pressure of potential assault or other dangers, to be sure if the license presented to me by a potential new client from say Iowa is legit or not, how much more difficult must it be for a police officer under much less helpfull conditions.

I know this is being pushed with the current push to combat terrorism, but in at least this specific instance I will agree that this is not a bad thing, but a necessary accomodation to the changing needs of an ever more complex world. It will be police officers in everyday situations who will most benefit from this as I see it, not some mystical anti-terrorism task force.

We do give up certain rights to enable our country to operate, and I view this as part of that compromise.

[Adolf]

I'm all for it! Now I'll know when you buy more books at Barnes and Nobles so I can burn them more efficiently.

[Kefka]

Certain freedoms for convenience is not a good compromise.


Note: None of the terrorists used fake identification to perpetrate their crimes.

[Edited on 5-11-2005 by Kefka]

[Warriorbird]

Eh. I think it would be fine...except for the whole HIGHLY FUCKING EFFECIENT ADSPAM that will be generated. I mean, y'know, apart from that.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Kefka
Certain freedoms for convenience is not a good compromise.


Note: None of the terrorists used fake identification to perpetrate their crimes.

[Edited on 5-11-2005 by Kefka]

I would love to not have to give ANY liberties up, but by continuing to live here I do agree to follow our laws. Those laws in the end are there to ensure our society does not devolve into chaos.

I guess the key here is to define what you see as a convenience. I see this as a valuable tool for law enforcement, one that can help save their lives and help prevent future crimes. That is more than a convenience to me.

Laws, and the ability to enforce them are what allows us to exist as a complex society.

I also agree the vast majority of the time, these new cards would be utilized by local authorities in conventional anti crime applications rather than in some form of anti terrorism. I do not take issue with that.

[Kefka]

Originally posted by Skirmisher

Originally posted by Kefka
Certain freedoms for convenience is not a good compromise.


Note: None of the terrorists used fake identification to perpetrate their crimes.

[Edited on 5-11-2005 by Kefka]

I would love to not have to give ANY liberties up, but by continuing to live here I do agree to follow our laws. Those laws in the end are there to ensure our society does not devolve into chaos.

I guess the key here is to define what you see as a convenience. I see this as a valuable tool for law enforcement, one that can help save their lives and help prevent future crimes. That is more than a convenience to me.

Laws, and the ability to enforce them are what allows us to exist as a complex society.

I also agree the vast majority of the time, these new cards would be utilized by local authorities in conventional anti crime applications rather than in some form of anti terrorism. I do not take issue with that.

"To be effective as a tracking tool, a national ID system would have to subject all of us to ubiquitous checkpoints and/or to random ID checks, with police empowered to detain people based on their failure to produce identification. ID challenges would have to become commonplace, a police power that has historically been anathema to free societies. A system of ID challenge, inevitably, rests on the individual judgments of police to decide who "looks suspicious" enough to challenge for ID, opening a new avenue for racial profiling. Likewise, bureaucrats dispensing public benefits and services would also come to rely on the national ID for verification, adding to the burden on the poor and disenfranchised."

[Parkbandit]

Please tell me what freedom anyone here has lost. You all talk about "MY FREEDOM IS IN JEOPARDY!!!" so tell me.. what freedom?

I am certain no one cares that Xyelin is purchasing KY jelly at 3:30 in the morning. I'm sure that this is not the intent of this ID card system.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Kefka
"To be effective as a tracking tool, a national ID system would have to subject all of us to ubiquitous checkpoints and/or to random ID checks, with police empowered to detain people based on their failure to produce identification. ID challenges would have to become commonplace, a police power that has historically been anathema to free societies. A system of ID challenge, inevitably, rests on the individual judgments of police to decide who "looks suspicious" enough to challenge for ID, opening a new avenue for racial profiling. Likewise, bureaucrats dispensing public benefits and services would also come to rely on the national ID for verification, adding to the burden on the poor and disenfranchised."

If you have a problem with producing an ID for the law enforcement community to look at.. I can understand why you would be at issue with this ID system. Please see my list of people who should oppose this system as you clearly fit in there somewhere.

[Edited on 5-11-05 by Parkbandit]

[Warriorbird]

Heck with freedom. I just hate spam. I resent the little stupid advertisements on the back of my grocery bill too. I also hate the ads before movies.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Heck with freedom. I just hate spam. I resent the little stupid advertisements on the back of my grocery bill too. I also hate the ads before movies.

You have issues if you resent the advertisements on the back of your grocery bill.

I'll admit that I dislike commercials before movies.. and that I hate spam. But come on.. what difference does the ads make on the back of your grocery bill?

[Hulkein]

I don't understand how this card will inform the government on your purchases, etc.

Do you pay with it? Do you need to show it when buying a regular book?

If you're really that against it, just demagnetize it after you get it and claim it is messed up. You'll have the id, but it won't scan.

[Kefka]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Kefka
"To be effective as a tracking tool, a national ID system would have to subject all of us to ubiquitous checkpoints and/or to random ID checks, with police empowered to detain people based on their failure to produce identification. ID challenges would have to become commonplace, a police power that has historically been anathema to free societies. A system of ID challenge, inevitably, rests on the individual judgments of police to decide who "looks suspicious" enough to challenge for ID, opening a new avenue for racial profiling. Likewise, bureaucrats dispensing public benefits and services would also come to rely on the national ID for verification, adding to the burden on the poor and disenfranchised."

If you have a problem with producing an ID for the law enforcement community to look at.. I can understand why you would be at issue with this ID system. Please seem my list of people who should oppose this system as you clearly fit in there somewhere.

Hmm... Other than convenience, you've given no reason why we need national ID. I prefer to maintain privacy in my personal dealings and not live in a police state where every transaction is scrutinized by the government.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Kefka
Hmm... Other than convenience, you've given no reason why we need national ID. I prefer to maintain privacy in my personal dealings and not live in a police state where every transaction is scrutinized by the government.


Originally posted by Parkbandit
Because each state's identification requirement is different.
It sets a single standard for all American citizens for identification.
Makes security better by knowing the IDs instead of knowing 50 state IDs.

These are just off the top of my head.


I think my reasons, which are based upon facts, are much better than your ambiguous conspiracy theories that the government is out to get you.

[CrystalTears]

I want to know where it states that they're going to be able to know your grocery bill. That just cracks me up. They probably can already find this out anyway if feds really wanted to know if you're guilty in the first place. Not sure what this "invading my privacy" thing is.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Kefka
Hmm... Other than convenience, you've given no reason why we need national ID. I prefer to maintain privacy in my personal dealings and not live in a police state where every transaction is scrutinized by the government.

Are you saying the reasons I gave also fall purely under the heading of convenience?

[Warriorbird]

My comments were more on the increased ease of retailers/advertisers acquiring personal information, if it is all encoded that easily. A valid concern, especially with all the recent ID database hackings.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
My comments were more on the increased ease of retailers/advertisers acquiring personal information, if it is all encoded that easily. A valid concern, especially with all the recent ID database hackings.

Then you simply refuse to give your ID. I do that every time I purchase something at Radio Shack. They want to know my telephone number. I simply tell them it's unlisted and they continue on.

If you don't want to give your ID to someone at 7-11.. except for purchasing items that have an age requirement on them.. tell them to fuck off.

If you are losing your precious freedom at 7-11.. it's because you are giving it away.

I've debunked this bullshit.. next Conspiracy theory please.

[CrystalTears]

They're not government companies, so I don't see why (or how) they would have access to that type of information anyway.

[Edited on 5/11/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Kefka]

http://news.com.com/National+ID+cards+on+the+way/2100-1028_3-5573414.html

Though the Real ID act does not specify RFID or biometric technology, it requires that the Department of Homeland Security adopt "machine-readable technology" standards and provides broad discretion in how to do it.

RFID = GPS

"In reality, this bill is a Trojan horse," said Paul, the Republican congressman. "It pretends to offer desperately needed border control in order to stampede Americans into sacrificing what is uniquely American: our constitutionally protected liberty."

[Back]

I dunno, if you aren’t a threat, you have nothing to worry about.

As far as the corporations getting your info... everyone with a Giant, Starbucks, Sears, ExxonMobile, AOL etc cards is having their info tapped already.

What I find disturbing most is it being tacked onto a budget bill. I do not trust this government, the lot of them.

[Hulkein]

I'll put my ID in a tub of water overnight... See if the GPS chip can handle that, aha!

Honestly though, if it has anything remotely close to GPS, I'll be disabling it and demagnetizing it.

I'll have the ID for people to see if needed, no time for scanning and following my steps, though.

[Edited on 5-11-2005 by Hulkein]

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Warriorbird
My comments were more on the increased ease of retailers/advertisers acquiring personal information, if it is all encoded that easily. A valid concern, especially with all the recent ID database hackings.

Then you simply refuse to give your ID. I do that every time I purchase something at Radio Shack. They want to know my telephone number. I simply tell them it's unlisted and they continue on.

If you don't want to give your ID to someone at 7-11.. except for purchasing items that have an age requirement on them.. tell them to fuck off.

If you are losing your precious freedom at 7-11.. it's because you are giving it away.

I've debunked this bullshit.. next Conspiracy theory please.

You have not debunked shit dumbass and in fact you just proved my point.
7-11 employee "just teh coke and gas sir?"
Customer "Yes please"
7-11 employee ID please.
Customer "fuck off"
7-11 employee "No service, have a nice day"

Guess that customer just lost his freedom to buy a big gulp. What's next?

RFID means your location will be known at ALL times. Since they would never get away with putting a chip implant under our skin they did the next best thing. It is in your pocket at all times.

It's not the law enforcement part of this that I have issue with it's the fucking privacy part.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Hulkein
I'll put my ID in a tub of water overnight... See if the GPS chip can handle that, aha!

Honestly though, if it has anything remotely close to GPS, I'll be disabling it and demagnetizing it.

I'll have the ID for people to see if needed, no time for scanning and following my steps, though.

[Edited on 5-11-2005 by Hulkein]

Problem is it will no longer be valid. =(

[Hulkein]

Haha, I'm cracking up at "just teh coke and gas sir?"

[Hulkein]

My drivers license is valid even though it doesn't scan. They just think it's broken from wear and tear.

[CrystalTears]

Okay why is the gas station going to DEMAND ID when purchasing gas and a coke?

And if they're tracking you, chances are there are legit reasons for it. There are millions of people in the US. Someone picking and choosing you to follow around while you go to the Gap is not only the craziest conspiracy I've ever heard, but also the most paranoid.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Okay why is the gas station going to DEMAND ID when purchasing gas and a coke?

And if they're tracking you, chances are there are legit reasons for it. There are millions of people in the US. Someone picking and choosing you to follow around while you go to the Gap is not only the craziest conspiracy I've ever heard, but also the most paranoid.

It does not SINGLE out anyone. It will be a real time linked national database. EVERYONE will be subjected to it.

7-11 and any other place can demand ID for ANY fucking thing they want.

[Kefka]

So it's ok to be monitored 24/7 because you didn't do anything wrong?

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Kefka
So it's ok to be monitored 24/7 because you didn't do anything wrong?

Nope. Part of the major bullshit but I guess if we want to be safe from illegal immigrants that is the way it has to be.

[CrystalTears]

And that would be their loss to refuse service over requesting ID when there is no need for it. This is why we carry around credit cards so that they don't ask for ID.

If THAT'S the case, that all these people will have a bug up their ass to insist on seeing my ID for every transaction, THEN I'll get upset. But since we won't see hide nor hair of this ID for another 3 years, I think getting worked up into a froth about the unknown is rather ridiculous.

[ElanthianSiren]

Because your driver's liscense doesn't scan now, yet is accepted, isn't to say that will be the case with the new cards.

The board that oversees them, or is set to oversee them, is permitted by the legislation passed, to ammend the laws as they see fit without congressional approval. If they think people whose cards don't work should have to go get new ones, guess what? you're out of luck buying your slurpee.

-Melissa

[CrystalTears]

But you're ASSUMING that all businesses will require that you show ID for regular purchases, and I see no evidence of that.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Xyelin
You have not debunked shit dumbass and in fact you just proved my point.
7-11 employee "just teh coke and gas sir?"
Customer "Yes please"
7-11 employee ID please.
Customer "fuck off"
7-11 employee "No service, have a nice day"

Guess that customer just lost his freedom to buy a big gulp. What's next?

RFID means your location will be known at ALL times. Since they would never get away with putting a chip implant under our skin they did the next best thing. It is in your pocket at all times.

It's not the law enforcement part of this that I have issue with it's the fucking privacy part.

I have yet to see any official information regarding this ID system that discusses GPS tracking devices in them. Please post your link to an official document regarding this. Otherwise, I will consider it part of your Conspiracy.

And do you really believe in our capitalist society that 7-11 would ask you for ID to purchase a soda? Why don't they do it now? And IF THEY DID do it and refused service because of it.. how long do you think they will be in business?

[Sean of the Thread]

It didn't need to get so frothed. The original point is that I wanted to inform anyone who cares about their privacy what is on the horizon. Some people care less about it then I do but to each their own.

[Hulkein]

If 7-11 is asking to see my card to purchase soda, I'll go down to the Italian market and live off of fresh food bought from a 75 year old first generation Pisan who would sooner dress in green for St. Patty's day than ID anyone for food.

[Edited on 5-11-2005 by Hulkein]

[Kefka]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
But you're ASSUMING that all businesses will require that you show ID for regular purchases, and I see no evidence of that.

Yet. The cards aren't here yet. Just like with drinking and smoking, ID will be required. I'd rather not wait 3 years from now, when being taken into custody for forgetting my wallet, to complain how screwed up this law is.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Xyelin
You have not debunked shit dumbass and in fact you just proved my point.
7-11 employee "just teh coke and gas sir?"
Customer "Yes please"
7-11 employee ID please.
Customer "fuck off"
7-11 employee "No service, have a nice day"

Guess that customer just lost his freedom to buy a big gulp. What's next?

RFID means your location will be known at ALL times. Since they would never get away with putting a chip implant under our skin they did the next best thing. It is in your pocket at all times.

It's not the law enforcement part of this that I have issue with it's the fucking privacy part.

I have yet to see any official information regarding this ID system that discusses GPS tracking devices in them. Please post your link to an official document regarding this. Otherwise, I will consider it part of your Conspiracy.

And do you really believe in our capitalist society that 7-11 would ask you for ID to purchase a soda? Why don't they do it now? And IF THEY DID do it and refused service because of it.. how long do you think they will be in business?

I didn't say shit about GPS tracking. I said RFID tracking.

They don't do it now because there is no information to be collected. And if they DID do it they and refused service because of it they would still be in business because of people like you that don't give a shit about your privacy. Like I said I don't know for a fact that they will scan for a soda but the point is it is possible. The RFID part is the real bullshit.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Hulkein
If 7-11 is asking to see my card to purchase soda, I'll go down to the Italian market and live off of fresh food bought from a 75 year old first generation Pisan who would sooner dress in green for St. Patty's day than ID anyone for food.

[Edited on 5-11-2005 by Hulkein]

Heheh. Brings up another point. A National ID is just another step towards a cashless society where the government will have complete control. This is all slippery slope shit but man who the fuck knows. One baby step at a time.

[Parkbandit]

Your assumptions are pretty big right now.. and they are based on zero fact.

If I were asked to produce an ID to buy a soda.. I would question that and fight it. It's no one's business that I just purchased a Pepsi over Coke but mine. Period and end of story. I'll fight for my rights when they are in danger.

You have yet to provide ANY evidence that this new ID system will change anything. Instead of showing your State of Florida Driver's License when going on a plane, you will have to provide your Federal ID.

When you provide some facts to support your claims that this is now 1984 and Government is out to get us all.. then I'll consider you more than a Backlash wanna be.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by Hulkein
If 7-11 is asking to see my card to purchase soda, I'll go down to the Italian market and live off of fresh food bought from a 75 year old first generation Pisan who would sooner dress in green for St. Patty's day than ID anyone for food.

[Edited on 5-11-2005 by Hulkein]

Heheh. Brings up another point. A National ID is just another step towards a cashless society where the government will have complete control. This is all slippery slope shit but man who the fuck knows. One baby step at a time.

It's already a cashless society and the Government doesn't have shit for control.

[Leetahkin]

I'm for the national ID, I'd even be for the implanted chip. It would suck though if the implant was in a limb that you lost in an accident.

I thought it was interesting reading a while ago about a family who has chips inserted into them which gives their medical history.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Nobody Cares
I'm for the national ID, I'd even be for the implanted chip. It would suck though if the implant was in a limb that you lost in an accident.

I thought it was interesting reading a while ago about a family who has chips inserted into them which gives their medical history.

I read something about the people who had chips implanted for medical history. I thought it was a great idea if hospitals or EMS made use of that technology. However it was THEIR choice to do so.

[Back]

I’m with Hulk. As soon as they make me get one, I’m getting one big ass magnet to keep it on when I’m not using it.

Oh man, everyone buy stock in eel-skin wallets.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by Hulkein
If 7-11 is asking to see my card to purchase soda, I'll go down to the Italian market and live off of fresh food bought from a 75 year old first generation Pisan who would sooner dress in green for St. Patty's day than ID anyone for food.

[Edited on 5-11-2005 by Hulkein]

Heheh. Brings up another point. A National ID is just another step towards a cashless society where the government will have complete control. This is all slippery slope shit but man who the fuck knows. One baby step at a time.

It's already a cashless society and the Government doesn't have shit for control.

Hmm I used cash last nite to play darts.

Anyways this is extreme but hey.. it all starts somewhere and were not far from this as it is.

"As exciting as it may seem to some people, this computerized economy is very dangerous. Our whole life could end up in computer files. We are being led to a universal system of computerized, totalitarian enslavement. Here are the opinions of some financial analysts from the US and Canada:

The era of paper money and coinage is rapidly drawing to a close and the new age of a cashless society is dawning... If modern electronic credit and debit cards can be substituted for cash, then every financial transaction of your life can be catalogued and stored for future reference and those with the power to cut off your access to electronic money can strangle you in a heartbeat. The potential for totalitarian blackmail and control is incredible—but most Americans don't even seem to notice. (The McAlvany Intelligence Advisor, USA, July, 1991)

This is the danger of debit cards: as long as you can withdraw paper money from cash tellers by using these cards, they will seem quite handy, since they eliminate the need to carry cash on you. But the Bankers clearly stated that paper money will be eliminated after a short period of time, and that only electronic money would be in use. In such a case, the debit-card system will become an instrument of absolute control over the human person. For example, if, for whatever reason, you are classified as an "undesirable person" or as an "enemy of the State" by the Government, they will only have to erase your number from the central computer, and you will no longer be able to buy or sell."

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Backlash
I’m with Hulk. As soon as they make me get one, I’m getting one big ass magnet to keep it on when I’m not using it.

Oh man, everyone buy stock in eel-skin wallets.

The MICROWAVE is your friend .

The government has already begun putting RFID into cash...

[ElanthianSiren]

Fact: ID system hidden in funding bill for troops that either had to be straight veto'd or straight approved with no amendments/concessions. That smells fishy to me.

Fact: Such ID system was already proposed once before and shot down, so it was included in this legilsation to circumvent that opposition. It starts smelling even more fishy.

Fact: Government proposes ID system as a way to check and make sure its citizens are not aliens; it also facilitates the removal of state IDs and state control of said process, while its political party continues to attempt to instill fear about big government social programs. Fishy AND hypocritical.

Fact: Government creates yet more buracracy to institute said system, more red tape, after citing that red tape was the very thing that allowed security leaks and fractioning of powers in past federal situations (911/spies/iraq etc). -So in effect, they are advocating a micromanagement policy that, in the past, has proven to fail and cause catastrophy under the guise of "security".

Fact: Quote Bush, "Things" (his job) "would be a lot easier if I was a dictator."

I dunno PB -- given the track record and Bush's own aspirations, I think people are absolutely correct to question the ramifications and potential ramifications of this new body.


-Melissa

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

It's already a cashless society and the Government doesn't have shit for control.

Patriot act, RICO act etc etc etc.

-Melissa

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Originally posted by Kefka

Originally posted by CrystalTears
But you're ASSUMING that all businesses will require that you show ID for regular purchases, and I see no evidence of that.

Yet. The cards aren't here yet. Just like with drinking and smoking, ID will be required. I'd rather not wait 3 years from now, when being taken into custody for forgetting my wallet, to complain how screwed up this law is.

And we are so effective at "preventing" drinking & smoking in minors, so surely this plan will be a bajillion times better and EVERY 7-11 will be checking IDs.

Anyway, like I said, I'm in favor of it.

[Warriorbird]

Eh. There's no conspiracy theory to "debunk", Parkbandit. See how much less easy it is in many places to pay for gas with cash than it used to be, while pumping it beforehand, for a counterexample. I don't think it'll repress my freedom or anything, I think it'll be annoying and personal information easily obtainable.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
Fact: ID system hidden in funding bill for troops that either had to be straight veto'd or straight approved with no amendments/concessions. That smells fishy to me.

Fact: Such ID system was already proposed once before and shot down, so it was included in this legilsation to circumvent that opposition. It starts smelling even more fishy.

Fact: Government proposes ID system as a way to check and make sure its citizens are not aliens; it also facilitates the removal of state IDs and state control of said process, while its political party continues to attempt to instill fear about big government social programs. Fishy AND hypocritical.

Fact: Government creates yet more buracracy to institute said system, more red tape, after citing that red tape was the very thing that allowed security leaks and fractioning of powers in past federal situations (911/spies/iraq etc). -So in effect, they are advocating a micromanagement policy that, in the past, has proven to fail and cause catastrophy under the guise of "security".

Fact: Quote Bush, "Things" (his job) "would be a lot easier if I was a dictator."

I dunno PB -- given the track record and Bush's own aspirations, I think people are absolutely correct to question the ramifications and potential ramifications of this new body.


-Melissa

When you spout this shit, do you believe they are really "FACT"ual. Or maybe just fact to you?

Given your track record and aspirations to politics here on this board, I would say people are absolutely correct to question the ramifications and potential ramifications of your slanted view of politics.

[Warriorbird]

Given that you only rarely enter such discussions, SHM, from a proven or unproven standpoint... and only tend to bash people when you do... I don't think you're exactly on the most solid ground in that assertation.

Removing the opinions tacked on, those actually are facts.

Will I have to wait on long, rowdy lines to get a renewal for my FEDERAL IDENTIFICATION CARD?

Like, at the DMV..

Is my question.

[ElanthianSiren]

SMH

When you spout this shit, do you believe they are really "FACT"ual. Or maybe just fact to you?

Fact: ID system hidden in funding bill for troops that either had to be straight veto'd or straight approved with no amendments/concessions.

That's not a fact? I thought it was mentioned in the article and also a tactic used as per the energy policy just passed. So you're saying that congress could have veto'd the bill in part and only allowed the section that funded returning troops more adequately if they so chose?


Fact: Such ID system was already proposed once before and shot down.

-See original article. I believe that section is in there.


Fact: Government proposes ID system as a way to check and make sure its citizens are not aliens; it also facilitates the removal of state IDs and state control of said process.

Not a fact? I thought that was the original justification for the system -- that the removal of state identification would provide a uniform and more difficult ID to fabricate. Am I lying SHM?

Also, quoting a fellow republican in another discussion:


Ganalon
Its called big government vs. small government. Its just the Bush administration putting decisions involving state interests back into the state's hands. States rights and that sort of thing.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/viewthread.php?tid=14511

The general republican hotseat about socialized medicine and social security is typically the federal government being involved -- or their want NOT to be involved.

Fact: Government creates yet more buracracy to institute said system, more red tape, after citing that red tape was the very thing that allowed security leaks and fractioning of powers in past federal situations (911/spies/iraq etc). -So in effect, they are advocating a micromanagement policy that, in the past, has proven to fail and cause catastrophy under the guise of "security".

What part of that isn't a fact? -Or was the overhaul of the CIA and other institutions as well as the 911 comission a figment of my imagination?

Are they not creating yet ANOTHER organization within government -- because I thought that was in the article too.

Fact: Quote Bush, "Things" (his job) "would be a lot easier if I was a dictator."

I'd challenge you to say that Bush didn't make this statement.

-Melissa

[CrystalTears]

I have a feeling the line will be longer. DMV loves to make it harder to get shit done cause they know they can. :)

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I have a feeling the line will be longer. DMV loves to make it harder to get shit done cause they know they can. :)

That... I can agree with.

-Melissa

[CrystalTears]

I think he's a bonehead for stating that he would like to be a dictator, but I can agree that it would be easier because you won't have to have the people's vote on anything, worrying if they like it or not, just do it.

I can only imagine that being in charge, especially governor or president, sucks major dick because every decision you make will always be disliked by someone.

[Edited on 5/11/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Eh. There's no conspiracy theory to "debunk", Parkbandit. See how much less easy it is in many places to pay for gas with cash than it used to be, while pumping it beforehand, for a counterexample. I don't think it'll repress my freedom or anything, I think it'll be annoying and personal information easily obtainable.

Name one gas station that doesn't accept gas.

Name one gas station owner that wouldn't want to accept cash versus a credit card.

The reason you have to pay cash prior to pumping is the large number of drive offs.. not the gas station's owner wanting to accept credit cards.

Like I said.. Defuckingbunked.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I think he's a bonehead ...(Just some helpful editing :D )

I can only imagine that being in charge, especially governor or president, sucks major dick because every decision you make will always be disliked by someone.

[Edited on 5/11/2005 by CrystalTears]

And hey now, you were in charge here for a good while and everyone loved you, right? :P

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
Fact: Quote Bush, "Things" (his job) "would be a lot easier if I was a dictator."

I'd challenge you to say that Bush didn't make this statement.

-Melissa

I'll skip your "facts" because I simply don't believe them. Your "Facts" don't show that this new ID program is going to track your spending or your whereabouts. And there are MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY provisions of bills that are attached to others.. to read anything more into this ID program than it's typical is just being ignorant of the Bill process.

I will though address this quote. How is it so bad of a quote? I imagine his job would be a SHITLOAD easier if he could make the decisions without the people's mandate.. but does that mean he wants to be a dictator? He's making a joke.. nothing more.

Jesus.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I have a feeling the line will be longer. DMV loves to make it harder to get shit done cause they know they can. :)

NOW THIS IS SOMETHING TO GET MAD AND UPSET OVER. GOD DAMN FUCKING LINES TO GET YOUR ID!

I imagine the day I have to stand in line, I will be pissed as all hell.

Finally, a FACTUAL reason to not like this ID system.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
Fact: Quote Bush, "Things" (his job) "would be a lot easier if I was a dictator."

I'd challenge you to say that Bush didn't make this statement.

-Melissa

I'll skip your "facts" because I simply don't believe them. Your "Facts" don't show that this new ID program is going to track your spending or your whereabouts. And there are MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY provisions of bills that are attached to others.. to read anything more into this ID program than it's typical is just being ignorant of the Bill process.

I will though address this quote. How is it so bad of a quote? I imagine his job would be a SHITLOAD easier if he could make the decisions without the people's mandate.. but does that mean he wants to be a dictator? He's making a joke.. nothing more.

Jesus.

I disagree with the first part. Of course you know that already.

I agree with the second... 100% as I back the current administration 99.9% now that I'm .1% pissed about this real ID bullshit.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I'll skip your "facts" because I simply don't believe them. :lol:

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I'll skip your "facts" because I simply don't believe them. :lol:

And thus the key word "your" and the quotes around the word facts. Sorry that escaped your comprehension, because confusion wasn't my intent.

[DeV]

You assume you know the reason I found it funny. You have never once escaped my comprehension, PB. Not yet. The only conservative that honor's been reserved for is Dave.

I still found it funny.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by DeV
You assume you know the reason I found it funny. You have never once escaped my comprehension, PB. Not yet. The only conservative that honor's been reserved for is Dave.

I still found it funny.

Well, the only way you would have found it funny had you misinterpreted the sentence to be that I don't care about the facts because I don't believe them. Clearly this was not the case.

Not that I am trying to be grouped with Dave or anything.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Well, the only way you would have found it funny had you misinterpreted the sentence to be that I don't care about the facts because I don't believe them. Because there can be no other reason, except the one you mentioned, for me to find your response funny.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Well, the only way you would have found it funny had you misinterpreted the sentence to be that I don't care about the facts because I don't believe them. Because there can be no other reason, except the one you mentioned, for me to find your response funny.

There is no reason to argue with him because he thinks is always right.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Well, the only way you would have found it funny had you misinterpreted the sentence to be that I don't care about the facts because I don't believe them. Because there can be no other reason, except the one you mentioned, for me to find your response funny.

Enlighten me.

I see it as you being called out for not catching the obvious clues in my post and believing it was something that it was not.. and then trying to back pedal.

[Sean of the Thread]

I think it's funny that you are telling him what HE thought was funny in the first place.. but then I remember that you think you know everything.

[Warriorbird]

Conservatives are theoretically the party of small government, and they like going on and on about it. Yet... an ID program and doubled government spending in the ten years of a Republican Congress. Funny.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Enlighten me.

I see it as you being called out for not catching the obvious clues in my post and believing it was something that it was not.. and then trying to back pedal.
By the way, this post should have been your first response to my cyber laugh out loud and we could have done away with the needless back and forth and assumptions and all.

It was funny because it is extremely typical of you to toss aside any opinion that you do not agree with. It was funny because I have a twisted sense of humor and what I find to be funny is usually not what is seen on the surface. I found it funny simply because it was coming from YOU! I also found it funny because I immediately assumed you honestly could not or just didn't want to bother to dissprove her facts, so instead you wanted to make it appear as if you didn't care about them and so you gave a bogus reply. However, I didn't want to make any baseless assumptions because I could have been wrong so instead I repled with a fucking laugh out loud. Because in any case I found it to be funny and that's my God given right as an American citizen. :)

[DeV]

Originally posted by Xyelin
I think it's funny that you are telling her what SHE thought was funny in the first place.. but then I remember that you think you know everything. I fixed it.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Xyelin
I think it's funny that you are telling her what SHE thought was funny in the first place.. but then I remember that you think you know everything. I fixed it.

Sorry I didn't even look who posted it.. just jumped the gun on the first know it all reply I could.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Conservatives are theoretically the party of small government, and they like going on and on about it. Yet... an ID program and doubled government spending in the ten years of a Republican Congress. Funny.

And that I'm a conservative Republican my stance should speak volumes. The politicians don't care either way so who gives a fuck I guess.

[Warriorbird]

Yeah, you're actually backing the theoretically traditional Republican standpoint here. Quite funny.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Skirmisher

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I think he's a bonehead ...(Just some helpful editing :D )

I can only imagine that being in charge, especially governor or president, sucks major dick because every decision you make will always be disliked by someone.

[Edited on 5/11/2005 by CrystalTears]

And hey now, you were in charge here for a good while and everyone loved you, right? :P

Um... :thinking:.. NO!

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Yeah, you're actually backing the theoretically traditional Republican standpoint here. Quite funny.

What's also funny is that thanks to Dubya and his people, I now have things in common with Bob Barr. Talk about strange bedfellows.

Raven

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Yeah, you're actually backing the theoretically traditional Republican standpoint here. Quite funny.

What's also funny is that thanks to Dubya and his people, I now have things in common with Bob Barr. Talk about strange bedfellows.

Raven

:rofl: Strange bedfellows, indeed!

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Xyelin
Like I said I don't know for a fact that they will scan for a soda but the point is it is possible.It's possible for someone to run you over with a car. Feel like outlawing cars?

Seriously though, has the government of the United States ever been as bad as it would have to be to justify these concerns?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Given that you only rarely enter such discussions, SHM, from a proven or unproven standpoint... and only tend to bash people when you do... I don't think you're exactly on the most solid ground in that assertation.

Removing the opinions tacked on, those actually are facts.

Given that you always enter such discussions, WB, from a proven or unproven standpoint... and only tend to bash people when they do not agree with you... I don't think you're exactly on the most solid ground in that assertation.

I only enter political debates on THIS BOARD when the bullshit is past my ears. I long ago gave up reading anything from Siren, Backlash, Dave, DeV and Tamral for anything than what they are. Not political activists, but preachers. They aren't interested in what others have to say, because they are too busy listening to themselves preach on.

Reciting four things that commonly occur in everyday political life as fact (riders on bills, circumventing opposition via riders on bills, item 3 has fact sure, but the fact it has isn't bad--not sure the slant there, government creating buracracy is self defined fact, and an out of context quote), then slanting your opinion at the end of each one... well, that isn't really fact... is it? That's getting up on the pulpit to hear your own voice some more.

Good stuff though, and entertaining as hell. I'll be back when it gets deep again.

[Sean of the Thread]

Glad you enjoyed. The point of my starting this thread was at least ALRET someone, if anyone. It honestly concerns me. I enjoy my privacy.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Xyelin
I think it's funny that you are telling him what HE thought was funny in the first place.. but then I remember that you think you know everything.

I think it's funny that you are calling DeV a HE when she's clearly a SHE, but then I remember you probably don't know the difference.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by DeVBy the way, this post should have been your first response to my cyber laugh out loud and we could have done away with the needless back and forth and assumptions and all.

...However, I didn't want to make any baseless assumptions because I could have been wrong so instead I repled with a fucking laugh out loud.

This post should have been your first response to my initial question and we could have done away with the needless back and forth and assumptions and all.

I can answer this for me. I'm opposed, phenominally, into government butting into personal business. I don't like the idea of government knowing what kind of groceries I buy or what my preferred brand of personal lubricant is. That kind of invasion of privacy is the stuff that Communist folklore is based on, and it really surprises me that you DON'T have a problem with it.

Since when do you need an ID card to buy a cucumber and anal lube?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by RangerD1

I can answer this for me. I'm opposed, phenominally, into government butting into personal business. I don't like the idea of government knowing what kind of groceries I buy or what my preferred brand of personal lubricant is. That kind of invasion of privacy is the stuff that Communist folklore is based on, and it really surprises me that you DON'T have a problem with it.

Since when do you need an ID card to buy a cucumber and anal lube?

YEA? Ranger1 has NEVER been asked for ID in all the times he's purchased those 2 items. NEVER!

"To be effective as a tracking tool, a national ID system would have to subject all of us to ubiquitous checkpoints and/or to random ID checks, with police empowered to detain people based on their failure to produce identification. ID challenges would have to become commonplace, a police power that has historically been anathema to free societies. A system of ID challenge, inevitably, rests on the individual judgments of police to decide who "looks suspicious" enough to challenge for ID, opening a new avenue for racial profiling. Likewise, bureaucrats dispensing public benefits and services would also come to rely on the national ID for verification, adding to the burden on the poor and disenfranchised."


If you live in a major city and are a minority then chances are you've already experienced this. National ID or not.


Welcome to the world.

Anyone notice how a bill making any gang related activity a minimum 10 year sentence got pushed through?

That's great and all but any black or hispanic person arrested for anything more major than shoplifting gets tagged as gang banging.

You're bitching because you think somebody actually gives a fuck that you prefer heinz catchup and people are still being railroaded by the system several decades after they were supposedly freed.

The bottom line is that most of you with your moral indignation don't really give two fucks as long as it doesn't effect you in any manner whatsoever.

Citizens of these country are still fighting for civil liberties and you all have the audacity to bitch because you *may* be subjected to the same treatment that millions of people have been subjected to for the last few decades.

Gimme a fucking break.

[Edited on 5-12-2005 by RangerD1]

[Skirmisher]

And heavens knows if anyone should ID'd, Ranger should be.
Especially when he doesn't buy the lube.

[Killer Kitten]

The U.S. used to be a free and open society where a person could 'disappear' if they wanted to.

This national I.D. will make that a thing of the past.

I'm sure lots of bad guys did the disappear thing, but so did lots of people who weren't breaking any laws.

It's just wrong for a supposedly free people to be required to carry identification and have to produce it on demand.

What's next? Checkpoints? Having to apply in advance and secure permits to travel?

When did the United States become a nation full of cowards willing to trade precious freedoms, no matter how trivial they seem, for this illusion of safety which is nothing more than total government control of our lives?

We'd all be much safer from terrorists if we were required to stay in our homes at all times or if strip searches were mandatory before entering any public place. Are we going to vote that into law next?

The world depicted in Orwell's 1984 was also a very 'safe' one. Unless you wanted to do anything that the government considered 'wrong'. With this national I.D. card thing in place, there will be no more fighting City Hall, or little guys taking on the government. Is that really what we as a society want?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Killer Kitten
The U.S. used to be a free and open society where a person could 'disappear' if they wanted to.

This national I.D. will make that a thing of the past.

I'm sure lots of bad guys did the disappear thing, but so did lots of people who weren't breaking any laws.

It's just wrong for a supposedly free people to be required to carry identification and have to produce it on demand.

What's next? Checkpoints? Having to apply in advance and secure permits to travel?

When did the United States become a nation full of cowards willing to trade precious freedoms, no matter how trivial they seem, for this illusion of safety which is nothing more than total government control of our lives?

We'd all be much safer from terrorists if we were required to stay in our homes at all times or if strip searches were mandatory before entering any public place. Are we going to vote that into law next?

The world depicted in Orwell's 1984 was also a very 'safe' one. Unless you wanted to do anything that the government considered 'wrong'. With this national I.D. card thing in place, there will be no more fighting City Hall, or little guys taking on the government. Is that really what we as a society want?

Dear Deep End - Meet Killer Kitten. Killer Kitten meet Deep End.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
This post should have been your first response to my initial question and we could have done away with the needless back and forth and assumptions and all. :lol: Whatever.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
I long ago gave up reading anything from Siren, Backlash, Dave, DeV and Tamral for anything than what they are. Not political activists, but preachers. WB has you pegged fairly accurately as well. I don't recall debating politics much with you and I only know where you stand on many of the issues because you'll back PB every once in a while, and troll the remaining time, including the frequent drop of an insult with no additional subtance to your reply. To each his own though.

[Killer Kitten]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Dear Deep End - Meet Killer Kitten. Killer Kitten meet Deep End.

If you'd told me 20 years ago that we were going to be issued national identification cards that we would be required to carry at all times and produce on demand I'd have probably said you were were the one sliding off the deep end. Had you gone a step further and said that many intelligent, well read individuals supported the idea I would have been certain that you were dwelling in the land of total lunacy. Not in America, where we value and jealously guard our personal liberties!

Now here we are, in a nation that has voted to do just that thing. I am certainly not the only person in America who finds current political trends to be somewhat frightening to those who value individuality and freedom.

My opinion is that those who are cheerfully throwing their own freedoms away to obtain some tenuous illusion of safety are the ones who are sliding off of that deep end, not the conservatives like me who wish to retain the America that our forefathers died to establish.

[Skirmisher]

In between the extremes of total anarchy and an Orwellian state I think is the world in which we live.

I do not anticipate there being a checkpoint every x number of miles or random stops for document checks.

I do not anticipate being asked for ID to buy milk.

I do not believe these are possible and in fact resent being labled a coward for not finding fault with a standardized drivers license.

I am able to debate the point without name calling.

Would that everyone could.

[Back]

Its a polar-shift in politics alright. Very, very good description, Kitten. Just like the media having once been liberal but is now corporate (conservative), the parties seem to have swapped ideals. Conservatives are liberal with the security-state, growing government, and obession with war, whereas the liberals are conservative of freedoms, budgets, and social programs, and peace.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Killer Kitten

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Dear Deep End - Meet Killer Kitten. Killer Kitten meet Deep End.

If you'd told me 20 years ago that we were going to be issued national identification cards that we would be required to carry at all times and produce on demand I'd have probably said you were were the one sliding off the deep end. Had you gone a step further and said that many intelligent, well read individuals supported the idea I would have been certain that you were dwelling in the land of total lunacy. Not in America, where we value and jealously guard our personal liberties!

Now here we are, in a nation that has voted to do just that thing. I am certainly not the only person in America who finds current political trends to be somewhat frightening to those who value individuality and freedom.

My opinion is that those who are cheerfully throwing their own freedoms away to obtain some tenuous illusion of safety are the ones who are sliding off of that deep end, not the conservatives like me who wish to retain the America that our forefathers died to establish.

When was the last time you were stopped and demanded that you show your ID? Holy fucking drama batman.. are you really serious with this post? It's almost as bad as Xyelin saying he will have to produce ID to buy a slurpie at 7-11. You are making this shit up in your head which has ZERO, ZERO, ZERO factual information to back it up. It's a fucking ID that will be the same nationwide. THAT'S IT! There's no GPS chip in it.. there's no wire antenna on it.. there's no demand from the Storm Troopers to show ID when you approach the guys in the white armor suits.

It's a fucking ID. An ID that will be the same from state to state.

[Kefka]

An ID that had to be snuck under a war spending bill.

What are your facts on what this ID is?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Kefka
An ID that had to be snuck under a war spending bill.

What are your facts on what this ID is?

I'm not the one proclaiming the new ID will take away our personal liberties. I'm not the one proclaiming the new ID will allow the government to keep track of our movements. I'm not the one proclaiming that the end of our freedom is right around the corner.

I'm simply saying it's an ID program which will use the same standard for all 50 states. If you need me to look that fact up for you.. it's no problem at all. You can do it yourself by doing a google search for Real ID.

[Kefka]

In other words, you don't really know what it is. You're just defending the hell out of it without facts of your own.

[CrystalTears]

I think he's just trying to curb the conspiracy theorists who can't let go of the fact that it probably WON'T be such a big deal.

We have ID's and social security cards now that allow government to have access to our information now. They're just centralizing it. OMG they know where I live and shop! Yeah, they always did.

[DeV]

It's not as simple as that for everyone. Ranger's post touches on a couple of my own personal issues with this new national database. I also don't see it doing much in the way to curb terrorism.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Kefka
In other words, you don't really know what it is. You're just defending the hell out of it without facts of your own.

Didn't realize you were google challenged. Here you go.

The Real ID Act (H.R. 418), sponsored by James Sensenbrenner (R-WI), establishes minimum standards that states must follow before issuing state driver licenses and other types of identification.

The bill mirrors the suggestions put forth by the 9/11 Commission: "The federal government should set standards for the issuance of birth certificates and sources of identification, such as driver's licenses."

[CrystalTears]

http://www.house.gov/sensenbrenner/wc20050127.html

The goal of the Real ID Act is straightforward: it seeks to prevent another 9/11-type attack by disrupting terrorist travel.

First, my legislation does not try to set state policy for who may or may not drive a car, but it does address the use of a driver's license as a form of identification to a federal official. The Real ID Act will establish a uniform rule for all states that temporary drivers' licenses for foreign visitors will expire when their visa terms expire, and it will establish tough rules for confirming identity before temporary drivers' licenses are issued.

Second, this legislation will tighten our asylum system, which has been abused by terrorists. The Real ID Act will reduce the opportunity for immigration fraud, so we protect honest asylum seekers and stop rewarding the terrorists and criminals who falsely claim persecution. We can no longer give benefits to those aliens who concoct bogus political asylum stories.

Third, the Real ID Act will expeditiously close the three-mile hole in the San Diego border security fence, which is still stymied eight years after congressional authorization.

The Real ID Act contains one final common-sense provision that helps protect Americans from terrorists in the U.S. Currently, certain terrorism-related grounds of inadmissibility are not grounds for deportation. The Real ID Act makes aliens deportable from the U.S. for terrorism-related offenses to the same extent that they would be inadmissible to the U.S.

[Kefka]

http://www.ssa.gov/legislation/legis_bulletin_022405.html

Section 202. Minimum Document Requirements and Issuance Standards for Federal Recognition

Beginning 3 years after enactment, would prohibit a Federal agency from accepting, for any official purpose, a State-issued driver’s license or identification card unless the State is issuing driver’s licenses and identification cards that conform to the standards specified in this bill.

* These standards would require a State to include, at a minimum, the following information and features on each driver’s license and identification card issued to a person by the State:
o The person’s full legal name.
o The person’s date of birth.
o The person’s gender.
o The person’s driver’s license or identification card number.
o A digital photograph of the person.
o The person’s address of principle residence.
o The person’s signature.
o Physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes.
o A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements.

* Would require States to certify their compliance with the new standards to the Secretary of Transportation. The Secretary of Transportation, in consultation with the Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), may prescribe regulations establishing the time and manner of the certifications. The DHS will determine whether a State is meeting the requirements of this bill based on the certifications.

* Under this bill, States must require, at a minimum, presentation and verification of the following information before issuing a driver’s license or identification card: 1) a photo identity document, or other identity document if it includes both the person’s full legal name and date of birth; 2) documentation showing the person’s date of birth; 3) proof of the person's SSN or verification that the person is not eligible for an SSN; and 4) documentation showing the person’s name and address of principal residence.

* In addition, States would also be required to view evidence of lawful immigration status before issuing a driver’s license or identification card to a person. A State would issue a temporary driver’s license or identification card (valid only for the period of authorized stay or for one year if the period of stay is indefinite) to noncitizens who are temporarily present in the United States.

* States would be required to verify, with the issuing agency, each document required to be presented by the person to obtain a driver’s license or identification card.

* States would have to confirm with SSA the full Social Security account number presented by a person to obtain a driver’s license or identification card. In the event that a Social Security account number belongs to another person, to which any State has issued a driver’s license or identification card, the State would be required to resolve the discrepancy and take appropriate action.

Section 203. Linking of Databases

* In order to receive any grant or other type of financial assistance available under this legislation, States would be required to participate in the interstate compact known as the “Driver License Agreement.” This agreement would provide electronic access by a State to information contained in the motor vehicle databases of all other States.

* The State motor vehicle database would have to contain, at a minimum:
o All data fields printed on drivers’ licenses and identification cards issued by the State.
o Motor vehicle drivers’ histories, including motor vehicle violations, suspensions, and points on licenses.

[Warriorbird]

"The goal of the Real ID Act is straightforward: it seeks to prevent another 9/11-type attack by disrupting terrorist travel. "

Except that's complete and utter nonsense. It would've had no effect on 9-11.

Sure, I think it could be helpful at dealing with small, local-level, criminal activity. That's a good realistic goal. The credit bureaus will probably also love it.

It might also help deal with illegal immigration, but then again it might make for more dangerous drivers on the road.

It'll create a ton of red tape and increase the size of government.

All a terrorist has to do if they want another 9-11 is to hijack a postal service truck. TSA has no authority over the postal service. Can drive right up onto the airfield.

There are thousands of terrorism related security holes in this country... this is probably one of the least effective ways of plugging any.

[Warriorbird]

Funny when you see "facts" versus the actual provisions of the bill.

It would suck ass so badly if one were to lose their FEDERAL IDENTIFICATION CARD.

[CrystalTears]

Even from what Kefka posted (which is just a detailed layout of the provisions), I still don't see what everyone's bugging out about.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
All a terrorist has to do if they want another 9-11 is to hijack a postal service truck. TSA has no authority over the postal service. Can drive right up onto the airfield.

There are thousands of terrorism related security holes in this country... this is probably one of the least effective ways of plugging any. All a terrorist would also need to do is pay someone to get the papers they need or counterfeit them if that option isn't available.

I think it's going to be a candy store for the more sophisticated identity thieves since all pertinent information will be centralized.
I also wonder if we have a guarantee that private sectors will not be privy to our private information.

[Skirmisher]

CNN went over some of the items in Kefka's post earlier.

The information they provided seems to match with what Kefka posted.

They pointed out that states do not have to accept these requirements.

You could still use a federally approved ID such as a passport as ID when such is needed for flying, or entrance to a federally secured facility.

And as someone who just recently had to get her license renewedin the lovely state of NJ, let me add that I think we already demand everything that is outlined in the new legislation.

Not such a big deal to me. :shrug:

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
It would suck ass so badly if one were to lose their FEDERAL IDENTIFICATION CARD.

It sure would.. exactly the same ass sucking bad when you lose your current driver license.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by RangerD1

Anyone notice how a bill making any gang related activity a minimum 10 year sentence got pushed through?

The bottom line is that most of you with your moral indignation don't really give two fucks as long as it doesn't effect you in any manner whatsoever.

Citizens of these country are still fighting for civil liberties and you all have the audacity to bitch because you *may* be subjected to the same treatment that millions of people have been subjected to for the last few decades.


Ranger, your point is taken, yet I wholeheartedly hope and don't think it applies to the majority of Americans. Personally, I'm opposed to MIN/MAX laws. I feel that they remove the ability of judges to do their job and judge. I'm not in any gangs. I don't use illegal drugs, deal them, or traffic them to dealers etc etc etc, so min max laws wouldn't generally apply to me. That doesn't mean I don't find them unjust and wish they'd never been put through Congress.

Further, I'd hope people who were opposed to certain actions of government would discuss those actions and why they find them offensive instead of getting on the STFU truck. If you made a thread about min/max laws, I would be one of the first ones in there saying they were stupid and over-burden an already over-burdened prison system; until you do that, please don't make decisions for others about what they do and don't care about legislatively; generally, you're going to be incorrect and mass labelling.

Beyond that, it seems to me that you invalidate your own point. If it bothers you so much that certain groups are still civilly unequal, why would you advocate the removal of more rights from more citizens?

-Melissa

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Skirmisher

They pointed out that states do not have to accept these requirements.

Finally. I was waiting for someone to use this in defense. States don't have to adopt the provisions. It's like no child left behind. Put into law but lacking the funding so going nowhere.

-Melissa

[Warriorbird]

"Citizens of these country are still fighting for civil liberties and you all have the audacity to bitch because you *may* be subjected to the same treatment that millions of people have been subjected to for the last few decades. "

So that makes it right?

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
Finally. I was waiting for someone to use this in defense. States don't have to adopt the provisions. It's like no child left behind. Put into law but lacking the funding so going nowhere.

-Melissa
Well, it was not so much a defense as I did not originate the legislation but merely do not find fault with it.

It was more of a noting of the simple truth that no state is forced to do this.

With that out of the way I must return to what I considered the more important point of my post which was that this is NOT an earth shattering change to how every state already issues their drivers licenses.

To renew my NJ license this past month I needed to bring:

My still current yet expiring soon NJ DL.
My Passport/ Naturalization Papers/Birth Certificate/Alien Registration Card.
A utilitybill/Tax correspondence/Checking or Savings Acct Statement from last 60 days.
My Social Security Card or proof of Exemption.
My current major credit card/debit card.


This is relatively new to NJ and it can be more difficult to gather all the needed documents than before, but there was no huge public outcry over this and rightly so.

It was pathetically easy to get a DL here before and now it is less so.

So, again I am forced to ask what the big deal is.

[Edited on 5-12-2005 by Skirmisher]

[Back]

There is a big difference. For example, you supply all that info to your State to get your license. With the Real ID the State will still collect that information (and keep copies if they already don't) and put it all into a Federal database overseen by the Department of Homeland Security.

Not saying if thats good or bad. But it is different.

[Skirmisher]

They already keep electronic files including digitalized photos and signatures for our state though.

See, my issue lies with the Patriot Act, not this.

The Patriot Act is the kind of beast that already gives the Federal government nearly limitless power to obtain our information.

The point I keep trying to hammer home is that this is not an item that should be consuming those fighting the loss of any privacy. This does not really change a lot for at least some of the states.

The Federal government can already pretty much request whatever information on you that they so desire thanks to the lovely Patriot act.

This is not going to be used to fight terrorism. This will be used to help state and more local level law enforcement, thats about it. I honestly think it will end up being a good thing for most people. That is as long as the dummies don't screw it up with the Patriot act allowing them to collect and use any ata they have a yen for on a particular day.

Getting all caught up in fighting this instead of worrying about the Patriot Act is to me a not seeing the forest for all the trees kind of thing.

[ElanthianSiren]

The question(s) are how far do they plan to go with the information and what do they plan on collecting? We can't answer yet, beyond the fact that they plan to collect and database driver's liscense information. As to the complete list of activities that will require the use of your card -- who knows? Since we can't answer that point, there are always going to be people who think that the government will use the system properly and those who are more wary.

I agree with you on the patriot act.

-melissa

[ElanthianSiren]

One thing the patriot act does prove though is that it's very difficult to remove unpopular and unconstitutional systems once they are approved into law. That's one of the reasons I don't like not knowing everything that they plan on using this for.

-Melissa

[Killer Kitten]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
When was the last time you were stopped and demanded that you show your ID? Holy fucking drama batman.. are you really serious with this post? It's almost as bad as Xyelin saying he will have to produce ID to buy a slurpie at 7-11. You are making this shit up in your head which has ZERO, ZERO, ZERO factual information to back it up. It's a fucking ID that will be the same nationwide. THAT'S IT! There's no GPS chip in it.. there's no wire antenna on it.. there's no demand from the Storm Troopers to show ID when you approach the guys in the white armor suits.

It's a fucking ID. An ID that will be the same from state to state.

The last time I was stopped and required to show ID...

August of 2004. Roosevelt Avenue in Queens, outside of Flushing Meadow Park where I work. Police roadblock, pulling over cars at random, for no probable cause whatsoever, and asking everybody in the vehicle to produce I.D. Also looking in people's trunks, without search warrants but with the implication/intimidation tactic that refusing to allow the search would result in being detained until a warrant could be obtained.

Time before that...
Same place, March of 2004. Same story. (I took that road a lot, as I worked in the park.)

Time before that...
On vacation driving across country. November, 2002. Pulled over in Kansas because the state trooper said we were 'weaving'. We weren't. He followed us, practically driving on our rear bumper for nearly ten miles before pulling us over. While he was following us he was checking on our plates. His real reason for pulling us over? Because to him my Jewish husband 'looked kind of like one of those A-Rabs'. Also that because we were driving cross country in a rental car we 'fit a profile'.
Made my husband go back to his cruiser and sit in the front seat surrounded by his arsenal while he questioned him about who we were and what we were doing. Then had him sit there while he came up and asked me the same questions. Bullied us into letting him search our trunk without a warrant because 'I'll get one if I have to but it will take hours'.

That's three incidents that have happened to me and my husband during the Bush years. We're both in our forties, work for a living, pay our taxes and abide by the law. Yet we are subject to illegal search, intimidation, and harassment to keep us 'safe'? I have every reason to be wary of any national I,D. card, and so does every thinking, freedom-loving American.

[TheRoseLady]

Well this ID sounds a lot like the Drivers License that I currently have. Every thing that is required exists on the one I have now....

I just figure that the damn things will cost more money. Maybe this will lead to national license plates and we'll finally have some decent looking ones. I swear to god color blind men who wear plaid pants design our plates and they NEVER get better.

I don't think the IDs are a bad idea. :shrug:

parkbandit


I've never physically lost my license, but after reading this article it just seems to me that more liberties would be at risk if one were to lose their FEDERAL IDENTIFICATION CARD as opposed to a driver's license. Therefor exponentially expanding the ass-sucking component?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren

If it bothers you so much that certain groups are still civilly unequal, why would you advocate the removal of more rights from more citizens?

-Melissa

PLEASE STOP POSTING THIS BULLSHIT BECAUSE YOU HAVE YET TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE THAT IT IS ANYTHING OTHER THAN BULLSHIT.

Please name the exact rights a Federal ID would trample over.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Killer Kitten

Originally posted by Parkbandit
When was the last time you were stopped and demanded that you show your ID? Holy fucking drama batman.. are you really serious with this post? It's almost as bad as Xyelin saying he will have to produce ID to buy a slurpie at 7-11. You are making this shit up in your head which has ZERO, ZERO, ZERO factual information to back it up. It's a fucking ID that will be the same nationwide. THAT'S IT! There's no GPS chip in it.. there's no wire antenna on it.. there's no demand from the Storm Troopers to show ID when you approach the guys in the white armor suits.

It's a fucking ID. An ID that will be the same from state to state.

The last time I was stopped and required to show ID...

August of 2004. Roosevelt Avenue in Queens, outside of Flushing Meadow Park where I work. Police roadblock, pulling over cars at random, for no probable cause whatsoever, and asking everybody in the vehicle to produce I.D. Also looking in people's trunks, without search warrants but with the implication/intimidation tactic that refusing to allow the search would result in being detained until a warrant could be obtained.

Time before that...
Same place, March of 2004. Same story. (I took that road a lot, as I worked in the park.)

Time before that...
On vacation driving across country. November, 2002. Pulled over in Kansas because the state trooper said we were 'weaving'. We weren't. He followed us, practically driving on our rear bumper for nearly ten miles before pulling us over. While he was following us he was checking on our plates. His real reason for pulling us over? Because to him my Jewish husband 'looked kind of like one of those A-Rabs'. Also that because we were driving cross country in a rental car we 'fit a profile'.
Made my husband go back to his cruiser and sit in the front seat surrounded by his arsenal while he questioned him about who we were and what we were doing. Then had him sit there while he came up and asked me the same questions. Bullied us into letting him search our trunk without a warrant because 'I'll get one if I have to but it will take hours'.

That's three incidents that have happened to me and my husband during the Bush years. We're both in our forties, work for a living, pay our taxes and abide by the law. Yet we are subject to illegal search, intimidation, and harassment to keep us 'safe'? I have every reason to be wary of any national I,D. card, and so does every thinking, freedom-loving American.

Now show me how it will be different with the Federal ID program.

Oh.. it won't be.

You will STILL be pulled over in each of those senarios and STILL be asked to provide ID that you had to prior to the Federal ID.

So what you are saying is that you are not against the Federal ID program.. but that you are against having to show ID to law enforcement people?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell


parkbandit


I've never physically lost my license, but after reading this article it just seems to me that more liberties would be at risk if one were to lose their FEDERAL IDENTIFICATION CARD as opposed to a driver's license. Therefor exponentially expanding the ass-sucking component?

No. Basically your Federal ID will take the place of your License... so it is equally ass-sucking. Maybe a little bit more because everyone will need one.

Thankfully, I know a DMV that NEVER has a line in it. Took me 20 minutes to get my last license.

[Warriorbird]

"No. Basically your Federal ID will take the place of your License"

Yet be more insecure, cost more, and not actually do much towards what they claim it will do.

Republicans, the party of "small government."

Sure, I want every gas station in the country to be able to copy down my home address. That's exactly what I want.

And if you argue those electronic portions aren't there? They're in the damn bill itself.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"No. Basically your Federal ID will take the place of your License"

Yet be more insecure, cost more, and not actually do much towards what they claim it will do.

Republicans, the party of "small government."

Sure, I want every gas station in the country to be able to copy down my home address. That's exactly what I want.

And if you argue those electronic portions aren't there? They're in the damn bill itself.

I have no issue with your beefs.. they are at least based in facts. The Gas station with your address might be a stretch though.. well, except they can do it now with your license and don't.

My issue is with the retards saying your rights and freedoms are being jeopardized by this new ID standard.

[Killer Kitten]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
My issue is with the retards saying your rights and freedoms are being jeopardized by this new ID standard.

Because a person disagrees with you they're a retard?

You're working yourself into a foaming-at-the-mouth frenzy and resorting to name-calling about this issue, instead of just stating how you feel and having done with it.

You seem to like the idea of having to carry an I.D. card at all times. Great, carry one. I myself grew up in a free country where people could lose themselves in anonymity if they so desired, and the thought of having to carry an I.D. is repugnant to me.

"It's only an I.D. card, to show you're American. What's the big deal?"

"It's only a yellow star, to show you're Jewish. What's the big deal?"

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Killer Kitten

Originally posted by Parkbandit
My issue is with the retards saying your rights and freedoms are being jeopardized by this new ID standard.

Because a person disagrees with you they're a retard?

You're working yourself into a foaming-at-the-mouth frenzy and resorting to name-calling about this issue, instead of just stating how you feel and having done with it.

You seem to like the idea of having to carry an I.D. card at all times. Great, carry one. I myself grew up in a free country where people could lose themselves in anonymity if they so desired, and the thought of having to carry an I.D. is repugnant to me.

"It's only an I.D. card, to show you're American. What's the big deal?"

"It's only a yellow star, to show you're Jewish. What's the big deal?"

No, a person is a retard when they are presented facts and they still react in a retarded fashion.. much like you are doing here.

You are already required to carry an ID. The Federal ID system will not change that fact.

You are already required to present your ID to law enforcement when asked. The Federal ID system will not change that fact.

You were never able to lose yourself in anonymity if you desired.. if you did you were always breaking the law. You can't up and leave to go somewhere else and pick up a new name, identity and social security number. If you did, you were breaking the law. The new Federal ID program doesn't change that fact.

And equating the new Federal ID program to the Holocaust makes you a gigantic retard in my eye and deserving of this award. Enjoy.

[Kefka]

Same old PB. You don't really know anything about this new ID beyond what's written on paper. We're all posting our concerns with this new system, and rightfully so with the way it's been introduced and passed into law. Your cussing and name calling won't change the way we feel about it. The point is such an ID is not needed if all it does is the same thing our current ID do. It does not help against terrorism and it does nothing for immigration except make it harder for those who try to use legal means to become a citizen.

When you use the conspiracy theory excuse to attempt to destroy any form of dissent, it takes the whole discussion away, which I'm thinking is your plan in the first place. Perhaps in your Shangrila, those with absolute power don't corrupt, but for many of us, we live in a very real world where there are corrupt cops and religious zealots that disguise themselves as politicians.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Kefka
Same old PB. You don't really know anything about this new ID beyond what's written on paper. We're all posting our concerns with this new system, and rightfully so with the way it's been introduced and passed into law. Your cussing and name calling won't change the way we feel about it. The point is such an ID is not needed if all it does is the same thing our current ID do. It does not help against terrorism and it does nothing for immigration except make it harder for those who try to use legal means to become a citizen.

When you use the conspiracy theory excuse to attempt to destroy any form of dissent, it takes the whole discussion away, which I'm thinking is your plan in the first place. Perhaps in your Shangrila, those with absolute power don't corrupt, but for many of us, we live in a very real world where there are corrupt cops and religious zealots that disguise themselves as politicians.

If you had read any of my posts, you would know I have no issue when you are basing your argument on those opinions.. because they are opinions. Stupid perhaps, but opinions based upon facts.

When you are saying that this country is now going to turn into George Orwell's 1984, that our freedoms are being trampled over and that the coming of the holocaust is upon us.. I'll resort to name calling because after 7 pages you were still unable to get it through your pee sized brain that this isn't the case.

[Killer Kitten]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
No, a person is a retard when they are presented facts and they still react in a retarded fashion.. much like you are doing here.

You are already required to carry an ID. The Federal ID system will not change that fact.

You are already required to present your ID to law enforcement when asked. The Federal ID system will not change that fact.

You were never able to lose yourself in anonymity if you desired.. if you did you were always breaking the law. You can't up and leave to go somewhere else and pick up a new name, identity and social security number. If you did, you were breaking the law. The new Federal ID program doesn't change that fact.

And equating the new Federal ID program to the Holocaust makes you a gigantic retard in my eye and deserving of this award. Enjoy.

It used to be very easy to 'disappear' yourself, a fact that myriad battered women were very grateful for. There are a great many legitimate reasons for wanting to vanish and start your life over, and being able to do that was one of the best things about being an American.

Just because our rights, freedoms and privacy are already being invaded doesn't mean I'm going to throw my arms wide and embrace more of the same.

It is easy to see certain obvious parallels between our current administration and pre-WWII Germany.

So, yeah, gimme that award. In 20 years, when we're actually living in a police state and the word 'freedom' is a complete joke, I'll point to it with pride as a sign that I was smart enough to recognize what was happening to my country and unafraid to speak out against it.

Of course, I'll probably end up in political prison for my 'subversive' beliefs. Kind of ironic, really. Those of us who value freedom the most will end up being 'detained' as enemies of the state.

[CrystalTears]

The federal ID is just the ability to track anyone, at any time, in any state. It makes it uniform and easier to work with.

When you change yourself in this country, you still have to go about it legally with name changes, and changing documentation to support it, but all the names and alises still point back to the original name you were born with, as it should be. The only people who know who you were originally is the government, and they have all this information today. They're just consolidating all the sources into one form of ID.

Sure there are reasons to be concerned with possible abuses where it gives the government more power than we would like. I'm not discrediting that. But then, they can abuse that power at any time right now, but because they put the word "federal" on the ID now, all hell is breaking loose, and I think it's where people are adding a conspiracy where there isn't one.

At this point in time with the way they've been explaining the bill, I don't see where they state that you must carry the ID on you at all times in all situations for all purposes. Personally I like carrying my ID with me whenever I go out alone because, being the paranoid person I am when alone, should someone attack me and I wind up dead or unconscious in the middle of our lovely woods, I'd like to be identified BEFORE the autopsy, thankyouverymuch.

[Parkbandit]

Dear Killer Kitten,

You can only earn one award per day.. no matter how much you try.

And once again, there was never a "benefit" of being American as the ability to change your identity was always against the law except with the permission and help from law enforcement. If you believe it to be harder today than it was years ago.. that probably can be blamed more on the advent of the computer and the availability of information... not the Federal ID program that will be coming in 3 years.

Again, point to which freedoms you will lose due to this new ID program and then maybe we can debate the merits.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I'll resort to name calling because And you are giving someone else a retard award? It's even worse that you justify the necessity to resort to insulting someone who doesn't share your opinion.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

If you believe it to be harder today than it was years ago.. that probably can be blamed more on the advent of the computer and the availability of information... not the Federal ID program that will be coming in 3 years.

'that probably can be blamed more on the advent of the computer and the availability of information' -- which the federal id act strives to compile into one neat database for easy access.

PB can you tell us about the checks and balances within the act to make sure that your gathered information isn't used improperly?

-Melissa

[Skirmisher]

Okay, you know what.

You all need to relax a bit.

Sure, everyone has the right to voice their reservations of this new ID, just as those who do not forsee such problems have the right to make their own case.

Please lets all not sink to mud slinging and retorting ad nauseam.

Kitten and PB, you both are far too intelligent to be devolving into this Klaivish exchange.

Kefka I think made a good point in saying we cannot be sure exactly what will happen or how these new ID regulations will be utilized.

Thats exactly so, we cannot know EITHER way.

So please lets talk and bring up all the valid concerns we can in as calm and reasonable manner possible.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
you were still unable to get it through your pee sized brain that this isn't the case.

If they hadnt gone to the toilet for ages and had drunk 12 pints of beer, that would be a really really really long pee, which would mean they are clever, right?

[Killer Kitten]

Dear P.B.,

It is useless to attempt to discuss issues with somebody who resorts to behaviors such as name calling when their opponent does not embrace their point of view.

I happen to think that requiring national I.D. cards is a bad idea.

You seem to think that national I.D. cards are a good idea.

Had the discussion confined itself to those two concepts it could have been interesting, informative and probably a lot of fun.

When my presentation of my opinions is greeted by 'dumb shit awards', labels of being 'retarded', and what the opposing party considers 'snappy put-downs' that do nothing to encourage further idea exchange the discussion becomes a lot less fun. Using the same tactics would be indulging in behavior that I loathe, so I'm going to decline further interaction with you in this particular thread.

When you wish to discuss issues without devolving into the above named tactics, I'll be glad to rejoin the debate. Since the purpose of debate is to air your opinions and convince your opponent that your beliefs are more correct than theirs are, and since your posts have made me feel more strongly than ever that overpowering the government is the wrong move for our country I fail to see exactly what you have 'won' in this discussion.

Cheers,
Kitten

[Miss X]

Yay for Skirmisher. We should all read her last post and follow the lovely advice. :)

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
Please lets all not sink to mud slinging and retorting ad nauseam.

Kitten and PB, you both are far too intelligent to be devolving into this Klaivish exchange.



In defense of Kitten.. I don't see where she resorted to name calling or anything else. I'll take full responsibility for that.

I simply get irritated after 7 pages of asking for specific freedoms and rights that are being taken away from those who claim this bill will.. and no one can give me any. I get irritated by people who are clearly misinformed and jumping to conclusions that this is the coming of the Nazis in America.

If you want to debate the merits of the privacy of information.. hey, that is a good question. If you want to debate the need for this program versus the cost.. bring it.

But to say your freedom and rights are being threatened, that this is the first step to Nazi control and the coming of the Bush Dictatorship is simply untrue. It's based upon nothing but hysteria and the same old "THE GOVERNMENT IS OUT TO GET ME!! HEEEEELLP!!!" conspiracy theory.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Kefka
Same old PB. You don't really know anything about this new ID beyond what's written on paper. We're all posting our concerns with this new system, and rightfully so with the way it's been introduced and passed into law. Your cussing and name calling won't change the way we feel about it.

The point is such an ID is not needed if all it does is the same thing our current ID do.

But it clearly will not do the same thing our current ID will do.. which is why the bill exists in the first place.



Originally posted by Kefka
It does not help against terrorism and it does nothing for immigration except make it harder for those who try to use legal means to become a citizen.

It is designed to make it MUCH harder for terrorists to come into our country and obtain false IDs.


Originally posted by Kefka
When you use the conspiracy theory excuse to attempt to destroy any form of dissent, it takes the whole discussion away, which I'm thinking is your plan in the first place. Perhaps in your Shangrila, those with absolute power don't corrupt, but for many of us, we live in a very real world where there are corrupt cops and religious zealots that disguise themselves as politicians.

I think reality is somewhere in the middle actually. I see you as thinking everyone in power is out to get you and to somehow screw you out of some rights or freedoms.

[CrystalTears]

It's the fear of the unknown, PB. Since no one really knows what's going to happen with the ID, people are drawing their own conclusions.

Although I too have asked what freedoms and privacy will be violated with the ID and no one has brought up anything. It makes it frustrating to keep up with the debate when you keep on hearing the same doom and gloom with nothing to support such feelings.

[DeV]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Although I too have asked what freedoms and privacy will be violated with the ID and no one has brought up anything.. And likewise... I've heard nothing to validate the need of such a costly endeavor.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Killer Kitten
It is easy to see certain obvious parallels between our current administration and pre-WWII Germany.Wow. In response:
Originally posted by Dennis Miller
If you're in a peace march and the guy next to you has a sign that says Bush is Hitler, forget the peace thing for a second and beat his ass
Originally posted by Killer Kitten
It is useless to attempt to discuss issues with somebody who resorts to behaviors such as name calling when their opponent does not embrace their point of view. ... Using the same tactics would be indulging in behavior that I loathe, so I'm going to decline further interaction with you in this particular thread.I agree. But it's odd, I could have sworn I remember insults being bandied about before PB started up. Let's take a look:
I have every reason to be wary of any national I,D. card, and so does every thinking, freedom-loving American.
When did the United States become a nation full of cowards willing to trade precious freedoms, no matter how trivial they seem, for this illusion of safety which is nothing more than total government control of our lives?:shrug:

[HarmNone]

I imagine the "doom and gloom" people feel pretty frustrated, too, CT. They don't see any real assurances that their fears will not be realized. To me, neither side is stupid in their stance. They simply view things differently, and each is entitled to their own opinion without being labeled a retard.

Personally, I'm not one to be overly concerned at this point. I'll be watching to see what, exactly, the plan is and how it will be administered, including what safeguards will be put in place to ensure that such a system is not abused.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
It is designed to make it MUCH harder for terrorists to come into our country and obtain false IDs.
How much harder?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Parkbandit
It is designed to make it MUCH harder for terrorists to come into our country and obtain false IDs.
How much harder?


Originally posted by Kefka
http://www.ssa.gov/legislation/legis_bulletin_022405.html

Section 202. Minimum Document Requirements and Issuance Standards for Federal Recognition

Beginning 3 years after enactment, would prohibit a Federal agency from accepting, for any official purpose, a State-issued driver’s license or identification card unless the State is issuing driver’s licenses and identification cards that conform to the standards specified in this bill.

* These standards would require a State to include, at a minimum, the following information and features on each driver’s license and identification card issued to a person by the State:
o The person’s full legal name.
o The person’s date of birth.
o The person’s gender.
o The person’s driver’s license or identification card number.
o A digital photograph of the person.
o The person’s address of principle residence.
o The person’s signature.
o Physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes.
o A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements.

* Would require States to certify their compliance with the new standards to the Secretary of Transportation. The Secretary of Transportation, in consultation with the Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), may prescribe regulations establishing the time and manner of the certifications. The DHS will determine whether a State is meeting the requirements of this bill based on the certifications.

* Under this bill, States must require, at a minimum, presentation and verification of the following information before issuing a driver’s license or identification card: 1) a photo identity document, or other identity document if it includes both the person’s full legal name and date of birth; 2) documentation showing the person’s date of birth; 3) proof of the person's SSN or verification that the person is not eligible for an SSN; and 4) documentation showing the person’s name and address of principal residence.

* In addition, States would also be required to view evidence of lawful immigration status before issuing a driver’s license or identification card to a person. A State would issue a temporary driver’s license or identification card (valid only for the period of authorized stay or for one year if the period of stay is indefinite) to noncitizens who are temporarily present in the United States.

* States would be required to verify, with the issuing agency, each document required to be presented by the person to obtain a driver’s license or identification card.

* States would have to confirm with SSA the full Social Security account number presented by a person to obtain a driver’s license or identification card. In the event that a Social Security account number belongs to another person, to which any State has issued a driver’s license or identification card, the State would be required to resolve the discrepancy and take appropriate action.

Section 203. Linking of Databases

* In order to receive any grant or other type of financial assistance available under this legislation, States would be required to participate in the interstate compact known as the “Driver License Agreement.” This agreement would provide electronic access by a State to information contained in the motor vehicle databases of all other States.

* The State motor vehicle database would have to contain, at a minimum:
o All data fields printed on drivers’ licenses and identification cards issued by the State.
o Motor vehicle drivers’ histories, including motor vehicle violations, suspensions, and points on licenses.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Although I too have asked what freedoms and privacy will be violated with the ID and no one has brought up anything.. And likewise... I've heard nothing to validate the need of such a costly endeavor.

Truthfully, I don't see the NEED for it. The government putting into effect doesn't bother me which is what I've stated before.

The only thing I can come up with it is since every state has their own rules and regulations as far as state IDs and licenses go, this will unify them, which could be a really good thing. Ideally it would mean that moving from state to state shouldn't be a huge ordeal, if it's not being specific to any one state with perhaps only to just meet the driving requirements and there being adjustments in your records of where you currently reside . I'm being optimistic, of course.

I'm not dismissing how people feel about this new bill that isn't necessarily a huge need, but I was interested why people felt it would be this huge invasion of privacy. Stating that the government has access to our information as the sole reason doesn't jive since they already DO have that information. What difference would there be? And that's what I was curious about.

[Gan]

Holy cow.

I cant believe I just wasted the last 7 minutes reading the last 6 pages of gobbeldygook Orweilian-Stone-Moore'ish conspiracy paranoia.

RFID in cards? who cares? At least if I'm charged with a crime I'll have evidence to proove my innosence providing the technology exists to make the chip powerful enough to be scanned from satellite and small enough to be inserted into a thin wafer-ike card; much less requiring every public vendor to place sensor/readers in their doorways.

As far as privacy? I highly doubt they will just set open access to your 'information' file so that any vendor can pull it up, and why would they care if they could, much less why would there be a need to use it for every purchase? The exact restrictions I'm talking about were just enacted with HIPPA and hospital information. Please google if you are curious about how your medical information is protected.

Using a Fed ID for obtaining such things as social security numbers, drivers liscenses, pilots liscenes, other professional liscenses, etc. would be a marvelous idea. It would add another layer of protection against those who seek to exploit things, like obtaining a pilots liscense in order to turn a plane into a flying missle.

If you're that paranoid as to someone knowing where you are every minute of the day then turn off your cell phone so it wont register with every tower it comes into contact with. Dont talk on it because god forbid anyone with the right frequency range could listen into the valuable things (conspiracies) that you are uncovering as we speak. [/sarcasm]

Actually, I'd like to see a single ID in place of my state ID and a Fed ID. That would help out alot in proving identification. It would also help out alot in things like keeping minors from using out of state manufactured/altered ID's to gain access to things and places where they dont belong.

And while we're discussing dictators. Having a way of knowing where my child is at 24/7 until he turns 18 is a marvelous idea.

[CrystalTears]

I believe the fed ID will take the place of the license so it will be universally used. It will definitely be harder to fake.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
http://www.ssa.gov/legislation/legis_bulletin_022405.html

Terrorism is the excuse given and I thank you for re-posting this informaiton. However, I don't buy it. This system will primarily affect those who are already law-abiding citizens. Any ID card can be forged and I don't see this as a deterant to criminal behavior/activity, more specifically terrorism/illegal aliens. It seems like a system more geared towards monitoring the non-criminals more than anything (if it will harder to obtain an FID card then it should also make it a bit harder for the feds to catch the bad guys in any case). But, that's just me.... and my warped views.

p.s. Harmnone makes sense.

Edited for clarity... or something like that.

[Edited on 5-13-2005 by DeV]

[Killer Kitten]

If we continue to just hand control of our lives over to the government because we are afraid then we are acting out of fear, which is as good a definition of cowardice as anything. If we continue adding to the already overwhelming number of laws we already have restricting almost every aspect of our lives we will eventually run out of room for free will or expression of independent thought.

My words weren't directed at anybody in particular, Just a statement of my opinion. I fail to see where I singled anybody out and called them names or swore at them. I posted my opinion, nothing more, and was promptly singled out for a personal attack that addressed none of my concerns.

I believe that the less the government has to do with our day-to-day lives the better off we are as people. I find it annoying to have to continually prove that I am not a criminal or terrorist by producing documents that most criminals have easier access to than I do. I find constantly being asked for identification (something that has increased a thousand-fold since 911 and the implementation of the Patriot Act) to be an irritating nuisance. I have a huge problem with police being permitted to stop and search my car without probable cause in the name of 'catching terrorists' or 'preventing drunk driving'. Even at my small town bank, where the tellers all know me by name, I am forced to produce my drivers license for every transaction I make, and they tell me it is because of the Patriot Act. Good God, I am sick to death of having to live like this!

With the passage of this I.D. card bill, I find myself having to accept yet another bureaucratic process that has been forced upon me 'for my own good'. What happened to my own right to decide just what is good for me and what isn't?

Through our elected representatives, we as a people rejected the implementation of a national I.D. card. The response from those who wanted this legislation passed was to sneak it into law as a back-door rider on a completely different bill, and now we as a people are going to have to accept and spend our tax dollars for it. I'd really prefer all that money go to feed starving kids somewhere, or build housing for the homeless, or fund humane societies across the country, or be pumped into alternative fuel research, or fund colonies on Mars and mining on Venus. I'd rather my tax dollars be spent on hope instead of fear, and on raising standards of living worldwide instead of imposing greater barriers between 'us' and 'them'.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Parkbandit
http://www.ssa.gov/legislation/legis_bulletin_022405.html

Terrorism is the excuse given and I thank you for re-posting this informaiton. However, I don't buy it. This system will primarily affect those who are already law-abiding citizens. Any ID card can be forged and I don't see this as a deterant to criminal behavior/activity, more specifically terrorism/illegal aliens. It seems like a system more geared towards monitoring the non-criminals more than anything (if it will harder to obtain an FID card then it should also make it a bit harder for the feds to catch the bad guys in any case). But, that's just me.... and my warped views.

p.s. Harmnone makes sense.

Edited for clarity... or something like that.



Yes, it will primarily affect the common average US citizen more than the terrorists.. since we probably outnumber the terrorists here like a million to one.

Much like currency has anti-counterfeiting measures, the new IDs will as well, which will make them much harder to duplicate than 50 different state IDs. I remember going to college in NY and seeing a couple of people on my floor making fake DL from another state. They were scrutinized at the bar door.. but because the bouncers were not very familiar with this specific state's DL.. they were allowed to pass right through most nights.

Most people know that in every piece of paper money there are obvious security measures in place to curtail counterfeiting. The blue and red threads, the watermark, the thread, the "feel" and look of the money, etc... I see these new Federal IDs having pretty much the same "known" measures. Everyone will know what to look for because everyone's ID will be the same.

It's not easy to produce real good counterfeit bills... and my hope is that it will not be easy to produce real good counterfeit federal IDs.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Killer Kitten

I believe that the less the government has to do with our day-to-day lives the better off we are as people.

So do I. Something we can finally agree on.



Originally posted by Killer Kitten
I find it annoying to have to continually prove that I am not a criminal or terrorist by producing documents that most criminals have easier access to than I do. I find constantly being asked for identification (something that has increased a thousand-fold since 911 and the implementation of the Patriot Act) to be an irritating nuisance.

I must be leading a charmed life. I live in a pretty big city with alot of crime. I work in a pretty rough area of town, also known for crime. I drive past the Tampa International Airport at least 10 times a week. I have to drive INTO the airport at least 4 times a month. I have yet to have this happen to me in the 12 years I have been here.. with the exception of buying alcohol (yes, I've been carded in the past 12 years, so keep your old man comments to yourselves), flying on a plane, crossing a country boarder and getting that cursed speeding ticket a month ago. I actually asked around the office today and out of 30 people, not one has had the same experience as you. :shrug:


Originally posted by Killer Kitten
I have a huge problem with police being permitted to stop and search my car without probable cause in the name of 'catching terrorists' or 'preventing drunk driving'.

See above. I've been through a bomb detection roadblock and a drunk driving roadblock.. neither time did I have to show ID or did they demand to search my vehicle. :shrug:


Originally posted by Killer Kitten
Even at my small town bank, where the tellers all know me by name, I am forced to produce my drivers license for every transaction I make, and they tell me it is because of the Patriot Act. Good God, I am sick to death of having to live like this!

I've always had to show my ID when cashing a check at any bank I have ever been at.. probably for the past forever years. If I am making a deposit.. I've yet to have to produce any ID. I use Bank of America and Wachovia. Again, maybe I am living a charmed life. I go to Wachovia 3 times a week at a minimum and I go to Bank of America maybe once a month... so I see both a banking institution that knows me by name and one that knows me as nothing more than a number. Again, maybe I am just really lucky. :shrug:


Originally posted by Killer Kitten

With the passage of this I.D. card bill, I find myself having to accept yet another bureaucratic process that has been forced upon me 'for my own good'. What happened to my own right to decide just what is good for me and what isn't?

I don't remember the State of NY or the State of Florida ever asking my opinion about the IDs they provide to me. They have always been forced upon me and I have never considered it a right.


Originally posted by Killer Kitten
Through our elected representatives, we as a people rejected the implementation of a national I.D. card. The response from those who wanted this legislation passed was to sneak it into law as a back-door rider on a completely different bill, and now we as a people are going to have to accept and spend our tax dollars for it. I'd really prefer all that money go to feed starving kids somewhere, or build housing for the homeless, or fund humane societies across the country, or be pumped into alternative fuel research, or fund colonies on Mars and mining on Venus. I'd rather my tax dollars be spent on hope instead of fear, and on raising standards of living worldwide instead of imposing greater barriers between 'us' and 'them'.

Didn't you just say you were for small government? Now you want to establish parts of the government for feeding the starving kids, build homes for the homeless, fund humain societies, research alternative fuels, research colonies on Mars and mine Venus? Which is it.. are you really for small Government or not?

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Much like currency has anti-counterfeiting measures, the new IDs will as well, which will make them much harder to duplicate than 50 different state IDs. This is a good thing though, we don't know how much harder or easier it will be to duplicate anything at this point. ANY ID can be forged, including passports.
They were scrutinized at the bar door.. but because the bouncers were not very familiar with this specific state's DL.. they were allowed to pass right through most nights.
As a deterant to teens who want to get into clubs, sure.
DMV workers can be bribed even today and for the right amount of cash you can obtain your very own ID/DL card.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Much like currency has anti-counterfeiting measures, the new IDs will as well, which will make them much harder to duplicate than 50 different state IDs. This is a good thing though, we don't know how much harder or easier it will be to duplicate anything at this point. ANY ID can be forged, including passports.
They were scrutinized at the bar door.. but because the bouncers were not very familiar with this specific state's DL.. they were allowed to pass right through most nights.
As a deterant to teens who want to get into clubs, sure.
DMV workers can be bribed even today and for the right amount of cash you can obtain your very own ID/DL card.

Absolutely on both counts. But you can agree that it will me more difficult for a terrorist to gain the IDs though, no?

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Absolutely on both counts. But you can agree that it will me more difficult for a terrorist to gain the IDs though, no? No. Because we do not know that it would be their aim to obtain these ID's in the first place. I can't honestly say that it will be more difficult. If there are no DMV records on these individuals how will we know who they are, where they're from, or even what they look like? They'll continue being criminals and terrorists and they'll eventually find new ways to beat the system.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Killer Kitten
If we continue to just hand control of our lives over to the government because we are afraid then we are acting out of fear, which is as good a definition of cowardice as anything.It's a good thing someone posted that they were acting out of fear then (this is a sarcastic statment). Otherwise you would be making a disparaging assumption about everyone who disagrees with you.
I fail to see where I singled anybody out and called them names or swore at them.You don't have to single a person out to be insulting. Check it out: White people suck at dancing. That's an insult to white people.
I find constantly being asked for identification Once a year (for Tsa`ah, that comes from 3 times in 3 years) is not constantly by any stretch of the imagination.
What happened to my own right to decide just what is good for me and what isn't?What makes you think you ever had one?

[CrystalTears]

Considering that the federal ID won't be a state thing and more of a nationwide thing, DMV will actually have to do right and stick with the program. I'm betting that helping produce fake ID's will at that point be federally criminal and not just a slap on the wrist, no longer worth the risk.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Absolutely on both counts. But you can agree that it will me more difficult for a terrorist to gain the IDs though, no? No. Because we do not know that it would be their aim to obtain these ID's in the first place. I can't honestly say that it will be more difficult. If there are no DMV records on these individuals how will we know who they are, where they're from, or even what they look like? They'll continue being criminals and terrorists and they'll eventually find new ways to beat the system.

You obviously don't need a DMV record to have an ID. Plenty of people don't drive and have ID. Federal ID's will probably be mandatory, therefore having to bring the valid paperwork in order to get one. No USA birth certificate or legalization papers, and you're probably SOL.

[DeV]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Plenty of people don't drive and have ID. And plenty of people drive while drunk, high, with no license, ID, or any forms of identification.
Federal ID's will probably be mandatory, therefore having to bring the valid paperwork in order to get one. No USA birth certificate or legalization papers, and you're probably SOL. I think you missed my point. I understand the process of obtaining an ID and how much more of an inconvenience it will be in getting one. However, that doesn't mean everyone will abide by the new law and go through the process like the rest of us.

[CrystalTears]

And I think you're missing my point that they [probably] won't have a choice in the matter, which is probably why they're implementing this in the first place, so that they can't avoid getting legal and proper ID.

[Edited on 5/13/2005 by CrystalTears]

[DeV]

And having legal and proper ID will deter a terrorist how? Are you trying to say that they couldn't obtain legal and proper ID by legal means, and then blow us the fuck up after that's been done? If they are already in this country illegally and do not work, drive, or do anything that requires the check of ones ID, what will this accomplish?

Just saying...

I see the positives and I also see the negatives.

[CrystalTears]

I understand what you mean about those that are roaming around illegally. It makes sense, however it makes you wonder how long they'll wander around aimlessly until they want to do something that requires an ID and then they'll be screwed, and I'm hoping that's when it will be effective. It will just be a long process, I feel.

[Farquar]

I don't really have any opinion on the national id. But I thought I'd share a tidbit.

A professor of mine in law school, a noted 2nd amendment expert said something that has always stuck in my mind. He was speaking in the context of stricter registration for firearms but he noted that it has applied throughout history in many different contexts:

(paraphrase)
Identification is the first step towards termination. I don't oppose registration/indentification because they are inherently evil or malicious, I oppose them because of the other evils that they make inevitable.

[Gan]

Was your professor basing his thoughts on the plight of the jews during WW2? Identification then termination? If not then I dont think I understand the motives behind his thoughts.

On the ID controversy. We could just be like any other foreign country and have armed soldiers walk around demanding to see your papers instead. Its amazing how good we have it here and yet continue to complain.

:banghead:

[Latrinsorm]

Not just WWII Ganalon. Look at how cars in use have dwindled since the early 1900's when license plates came in.

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren

Originally posted by RangerD1

Anyone notice how a bill making any gang related activity a minimum 10 year sentence got pushed through?

The bottom line is that most of you with your moral indignation don't really give two fucks as long as it doesn't effect you in any manner whatsoever.

Citizens of these country are still fighting for civil liberties and you all have the audacity to bitch because you *may* be subjected to the same treatment that millions of people have been subjected to for the last few decades.


Ranger, your point is taken, yet I wholeheartedly hope and don't think it applies to the majority of Americans. Personally, I'm opposed to MIN/MAX laws. I feel that they remove the ability of judges to do their job and judge. I'm not in any gangs. I don't use illegal drugs, deal them, or traffic them to dealers etc etc etc, so min max laws wouldn't generally apply to me. That doesn't mean I don't find them unjust and wish they'd never been put through Congress.

Further, I'd hope people who were opposed to certain actions of government would discuss those actions and why they find them offensive instead of getting on the STFU truck. If you made a thread about min/max laws, I would be one of the first ones in there saying they were stupid and over-burden an already over-burdened prison system; until you do that, please don't make decisions for others about what they do and don't care about legislatively; generally, you're going to be incorrect and mass labelling.

Beyond that, it seems to me that you invalidate your own point. If it bothers you so much that certain groups are still civilly unequal, why would you advocate the removal of more rights from more citizens?

-Melissa

Good question. Sorry I've been flying from Mosul to Chicago, it's not as easy as it sounds.

Anyway, the reason why I'd support such things is because it would finally wake the rest of America up to what is being experienced by millions of people nationwide.

The simple fact is people don't really give a shit because it won't effect them.

Case in point, after Sept 11th I was going home on Xmas leave and they stopped some lady in front of the plane and asked to search her bag. She launches into a big tirade about how shes not a terorrist and how they should be searching people like me. Me being a big ass black dude wearing a hoody and a pair of jeans. I pulled out my military ID card and offered her a nice glass of STFU, but thats besides the point. Which is that the majority of the people in the United States could care less about what doesn't happen to them.

When things do start applying to them thats when they break out the lawyers and have shit labeled unconstitutional. That sets what is called a legal precedent, so the next time the police officer tries to arrest me for furnishing my ID card in front of my mothers house because I find the supposition that I'm stealing property in front of my mothers house at 1pm because I dared to BRING SOMETHING TO HER CAR FOR HER, I can offer him the same cup of STFU.

Thanks for listening.

I also still think you guys are really blowing the lid over nothing. You'd pretty much required to have an ID nowadays anyway. Who cares if its the state of illinois or the federal government who has your shit. In the end it doesn't really matter, because they still have access to the same information.

I was going to reply to this thread, but then Ranger summed up what I wanted to say perfectly in his last post.

- Arkans

I want Federal IDs so I can use that when I purchase booze. I hate using my liscence because I look like a child molester on that picture and not everyone accepts military IDs because they don't scan :(

- Arkans

[Sean of the Thread]

Dun da dun dun.

Iris scanning to be done at airport in Orlando.

http://www.local6.com/news/4479554/detail.html

[Gan]

Originally posted by Xyelin
Dun da dun dun.

Iris scanning to be done at airport in Orlando.

http://www.local6.com/news/4479554/detail.html

They are also setting up iris scanners at the continental ticket counters here in Houston at IAH.

You folks better start watching where you pass out next time you tie one on at a party. It might not be your kidneys that wind up missing... [/conspiracy]



Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Not just WWII Ganalon. Look at how cars in use have dwindled since the early 1900's when license plates came in.

:lol2:

[CrystalTears]

Super sweet. Minority report, here we come. :D

Seriously, iris and fingerprint scanning is something they should be doing now anyway since we have the technology for it.

P.S. Xyelin, your avatar is offensive and really goddamned huge.

[Edited on 5/16/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Latrinsorm]

If they've made biometrics reliable, I'd go with them over an ID in a heartbeat, mainly because stuff falls out of my pockets a lot.

I don't really get how this is relevant to the topic, though.

edit: CT omg I thought the same thing. That movie was so fun.

Also, Xyelin: your avatar is way too big.

[Edited on 5-16-2005 by Latrinsorm]

[CrystalTears]

Because now he'll have to get his eyeballs removed all because of security and the government taking away all his rights.

[DeV]

Fucking illegal aliens, (Haitans, Cubans, Mexicans, and whoever the fuck else can make it over here by swimming, rafting it, back of the freight truck, or any other viable means) and *terrorists*.

Also, I loved being able to actually meet my party at the gate when going to the airport for a pickup. I think the new security measures at airports are a good thing though considering the TSA's previous track record at keeping airports and flights secure. They need all the help possible.

[Parker]

I'm lazy, and haven't read this entire thread, so what I'm getting out of it is this; The government wants to find a replacement for our Social Security numbers in everyday uses, so they're coming up with a National Number? Something like that?
Won't that just result in people stealing our National Numbers rather than our SS's?

[Gan]

You might want to go back and read the first few pages. Pretty much everything after that is a bunch of wailing, gnashing of teeth, and wearing sackcloth and ashes.

My take is that there's a huge (unreasable) fear in the addition of a Federal ID that might or might not replace any of the other Federal ID numbers... and that will turn Amerika into George Orwell's 1984 prediction of big brother watching our every move.

[Parker]

Well...they watch our moves now, if you hadn't realized...they have access to just about everything you do, unless it's within the confines of your own head. Anytime you connect to the net, or stream video across it, they pick that up.

This is just one more bit of our privacy gone. People should have been bitching quite a while ago, IMHO.

[Sean of the Thread]

http://www.ccc.de/biometrie/fingerabdruck_kopieren.xml?language=en

:lol:

[Back]

Magnets are easier.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
The only people that I can see being against a new Federal ID program are:

1) Criminals
2) Terrorists
3) Illegal Immigrants
4) People with fake IDs
5) People with fake Identities
6) People who think this is more than an ID

7) People who don't want to live in an Orwellian State

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Parkbandit
The only people that I can see being against a new Federal ID program are:

1) Criminals
2) Terrorists
3) Illegal Immigrants
4) People with fake IDs
5) People with fake Identities
6) People who think this is more than an ID

7) People who don't want to live in an Orwellian State

See #6

[xtc]

Originally posted by Ganalon
You might want to go back and read the first few pages. Pretty much everything after that is a bunch of wailing, gnashing of teeth, and wearing sackcloth and ashes.

My take is that there's a huge (unreasable) fear in the addition of a Federal ID that might or might not replace any of the other Federal ID numbers... and that will turn Amerika into George Orwell's 1984 prediction of big brother watching our every move.

The I.D. card is an unnecessary measure, it will costs billions. It can be used to monitor the movements of Americans, it is bascially an internal passport. We already have social security numbers that have strict provisions what they can be used for. This I.D. card won't stop terrorism either. If you can steal I.D. to get a passport you can steal I.D. to get an I.D. card.

This isn't wailing and nashing of teeth from a bunch of sackcloth wearers. Oh wait you're from Texas.......figures

[Warriorbird]

It'll just mean a larger relentless bombardment of stupid ads and people will have an easier time getting personal information...which will make identity theft easier, not harder.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by xtc
The I.D. card is an unnecessary measure, it will costs billions. It can be used to monitor the movements of Americans, it is bascially an internal passport. We already have social security numbers that have strict provisions what they can be used for. This I.D. card won't stop terrorism either. If you can steal I.D. to get a passport you can steal I.D. to get an I.D. card.

This isn't wailing and nashing of teeth from a bunch of sackcloth wearers. Oh wait you're from Texas.......figures

Heh, no offense, but what's this "we" shit? Don't you live in Canada? This wouldn't affect you at all.

[Gan]

Originally posted by xtc
Oh wait you're from Texas.......figures

The REPUBLIC of TEXAS thank you. And what in the hell does that have to do with this? If you're trying to be insulting then you really suck at it.

The Federal ID will have photo and other things that Social Security Cards DONT HAVE. I'm guessing that they COULD be included all into one form instead of multiple forms. And as for costing billions? Please, I think you're fuzzy math has gone to your head.

While I respect your opinion, I think its way off base.

[Edited on 5-17-2005 by Ganalon]

[Warriorbird]

It'll also have way too much easily visible personal information. Drivers licenses have those things and they're still faked as well. Here I thought conservatives LIKED small government.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
It'll just mean a larger relentless bombardment of stupid ads and people will have an easier time getting personal information...which will make identity theft easier, not harder. I still can't wait to find out what the private sectors role in all this will be.

But yep... everything centralized in one database will make it much easier.

[DeV]

Originally posted by CrystalTears

Originally posted by xtc
The I.D. card is an unnecessary measure, it will costs billions. It can be used to monitor the movements of Americans, it is bascially an internal passport. We already have social security numbers that have strict provisions what they can be used for. This I.D. card won't stop terrorism either. If you can steal I.D. to get a passport you can steal I.D. to get an I.D. card.

This isn't wailing and nashing of teeth from a bunch of sackcloth wearers. Oh wait you're from Texas.......figures

Heh, no offense, but what's this "we" shit? Don't you live in Canada? This wouldn't affect you at all. Didn't he vote for Bush?

[Gan]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
It'll also have way too much easily visible personal information. Drivers licenses have those things and they're still faked as well. Here I thought conservatives LIKED small government.


I'm not a fan of large government and yet I'm a fan of the ID cards and even moreso I'm a Republican. I dont align the ID cards with large government either.

Try again.


Edited for clarity.

[Edited on 5-17-2005 by Ganalon]

[DeV]

Originally posted by Ganalon
I'm not a fan of large government and yet I'm a fan of the ID cards and even moreso I'm a Republican. I dont align the ID cards with large government either.

Try again. Eh, my reply was to CT specifically.

The reason I ask is very lost on you I'll assume. Try searching through some of the old pre-election threads for some insight. I respectively decline trying again.

[Gan]

Sorry Dev. I clarified my earlier post. And yes, you're question is lost on me. :(

[Warriorbird]

"I dont align the ID cards with large government either."

And this somehow makes it so. Stunning logic.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by DeV
Didn't he vote for Bush?

That still boggles my mind.

[Gan]

The information that was proposed to be on the ID card...

SEC. 202. MINIMUM DOCUMENT REQUIREMENTS AND ISSUANCE STANDARDS FOR FEDERAL RECOGNITION.

(a) Minimum Standards for Federal Use-

(1) IN GENERAL- Beginning 3 years after the date of the enactment of this Act, a Federal agency may not accept, for any official purpose, a driver's license or identification card issued by a State to any person unless the State is meeting the requirements of this section.

(2) STATE CERTIFICATIONS- The Secretary shall determine whether a State is meeting the requirements of this section based on certifications made by the State to the Secretary of Transportation. Such certifications shall be made at such times and in such manner as the Secretary of Transportation, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, may prescribe by regulation.

(b) Minimum Document Requirements- To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall include, at a minimum, the following information and features on each driver's license and identification card issued to a person by the State:

(1) The person's full legal name.

(2) The person's date of birth.

(3) The person's gender.

(4) The person's driver's license or identification card number.

(5) A digital photograph of the person.

(6) The person's address of principle residence.

(7) The person's signature.

(8) Physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes.

(9) A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements.

source:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c109:2:./temp/~c109iN5p2q:e46676:

~~~~~~~~

The defining of what information is to be linked and tracked via the Federal ID's.

SEC. 203. LINKING OF DATABASES.

(a) In General- To be eligible to receive any grant or other type of financial assistance made available under this title, a State shall participate in the interstate compact regarding sharing of driver license data, known as the `Driver License Agreement', in order to provide electronic access by a State to information contained in the motor vehicle databases of all other States.

(b) Requirements for Information- A State motor vehicle database shall contain, at a minimum, the following information:

(1) All data fields printed on drivers' licenses and identification cards issued by the State.

(2) Motor vehicle drivers' histories, including motor vehicle violations, suspensions, and points on licenses.

source:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c109:2:./temp/~c109iN5p2q:e56644:

Master Source:
H.R. 418 E.H. Real ID Act of 2005 as passed by the House of Representatives.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.418:

Does this encroach the boundry between larger government and smaller government? Only in as much as duties already assumed by the Homeland Security Department. Does this mean Republicans will want to sacrifice other useful big government programs that monitor the effects of caffenated and de-caffenated coffie on ground hogs and weather forecasting? You bet your sweet bippy.

According to the above information there will be no tracking of purchases and other miscellaneous activity other than Driving liscenses and related matters that require a drivers liscense equivalent form of ID (banking, working, driving, flying, underage consumption of alcohol and tobacco, and I'm sure I'm missing a few law enforcement activities).

Why am I for it? Because it produces a federal database of this specific information that when linked with DNA and fingerprints obtained from a crime, will CATCH THE MALEFACTOR instead of just letting them run and hide in another state. Yes we do have programs in place that can do limited parts of that, but its not uniform nor applied uniformly.

As PB has iterated and reiterated in this thread. The only thing you have to fear is if you are unable to live within the constraints and laws of this society. And therefore will be subjected to closer supervision of your misguided activities and tighter ACCOUNTABILITY of your deeds.

[Warriorbird]

Where to start. Unlike some folks, I don't feel capitalization equals argument.

You just spent time proving my point.

"Does this encroach the boundry between larger government and smaller government? Only in as much as duties already assumed by the Homeland Security Department. Does this mean Republicans will want to sacrifice other useful big government programs that monitor the effects of caffenated and de-caffenated coffie on ground hogs and weather forecasting? You bet your sweet bippy. "

Shocking that the size of government has doubled in ten years of a Republican congress.

"Does this encroach the boundry between larger government and smaller government? Only in as much as duties already assumed by the Homeland Security Department. "

Hmm. Refer to above point.

"According to the above information there will be no tracking of purchases and other miscellaneous activity "

This really again has nothing to do with anything. It didn't forbid it either.

"Why am I for it? Because it produces a federal database of this specific information that when linked with DNA and fingerprints obtained from a crime, will CATCH THE MALEFACTOR instead of just letting them run and hide in another state."

Yet this has nothing to do with domestic terrorism.

"The only thing you have to fear is if you are unable to live within the constraints and laws of this society. And therefore will be subjected to closer supervision of your misguided activities and tighter ACCOUNTABILITY of your deeds. "

I love the antagonistic assumptions that I'm somehow a serial lawbreaker. Way to be a Texan. The "yous" are funny and insulting.

If there was "ACCOUNTABILITY" like you talked about, we would've seriously examined homeland security in a far more organized fashion. If there was "ACCOUNTABILITY", we'd actually search people's vehicles who drive into airports like we did at first, but stopped because whiny airline passengers decided it was too much effort.

That doesn't really matter to me though. With Lexis/Nexus being hacked and many other information databases being hacked this could actually become more of a tool FOR terrorism and other criminal actions. Let's examine the useful info on this card.

"(4) The person's driver's license or identification card number. "

"(5) A digital photograph of the person. "

"(6) The person's address of principle residence.

(7) The person's signature. "

All that could be easily obtained for illicit acts. Woo hoo, IDENTITY THEFT! (Oh no, I just used capitals to prove a point!)

Combined with this:

"(9) A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements. "

to make identity theft even easier to achieve.

Even if we don't go that far, the machine readable aspect is a privacy/consumer protection muddle of epic proportions.

And your ideal that this won't cost a pretty penny is also hilarious.

Yeah, conservative Republican ideals. Just about as real as Bush is a Texan.

[Edited on 5-17-2005 by Warriorbird]

[DeV]

Fuck.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Ganalon
The information that was proposed to be on the ID card...

SEC. 202. MINIMUM DOCUMENT REQUIREMENTS AND ISSUANCE STANDARDS FOR FEDERAL RECOGNITION.

(a) Minimum Standards for Federal Use-

(1) IN GENERAL- Beginning 3 years after the date of the enactment of this Act, a Federal agency may not accept, for any official purpose, a driver's license or identification card issued by a State to any person unless the State is meeting the requirements of this section.

(2) STATE CERTIFICATIONS- The Secretary shall determine whether a State is meeting the requirements of this section based on certifications made by the State to the Secretary of Transportation. Such certifications shall be made at such times and in such manner as the Secretary of Transportation, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, may prescribe by regulation.

(b) Minimum Document Requirements- To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall include, at a minimum, the following information and features on each driver's license and identification card issued to a person by the State:

(1) The person's full legal name.

(2) The person's date of birth.

(3) The person's gender.

(4) The person's driver's license or identification card number.

(5) A digital photograph of the person.

(6) The person's address of principle residence.

(7) The person's signature.

(8) Physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes.

(9) A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements.

source:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c109:2:./temp/~c109iN5p2q:e46676:

~~~~~~~~

The defining of what information is to be linked and tracked via the Federal ID's.

SEC. 203. LINKING OF DATABASES.

(a) In General- To be eligible to receive any grant or other type of financial assistance made available under this title, a State shall participate in the interstate compact regarding sharing of driver license data, known as the `Driver License Agreement', in order to provide electronic access by a State to information contained in the motor vehicle databases of all other States.

(b) Requirements for Information- A State motor vehicle database shall contain, at a minimum, the following information:

(1) All data fields printed on drivers' licenses and identification cards issued by the State.

(2) Motor vehicle drivers' histories, including motor vehicle violations, suspensions, and points on licenses.

source:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c109:2:./temp/~c109iN5p2q:e56644:

Master Source:
H.R. 418 E.H. Real ID Act of 2005 as passed by the House of Representatives.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.418:

Does this encroach the boundry between larger government and smaller government? Only in as much as duties already assumed by the Homeland Security Department. Does this mean Republicans will want to sacrifice other useful big government programs that monitor the effects of caffenated and de-caffenated coffie on ground hogs and weather forecasting? You bet your sweet bippy.

According to the above information there will be no tracking of purchases and other miscellaneous activity other than Driving liscenses and related matters that require a drivers liscense equivalent form of ID (banking, working, driving, flying, underage consumption of alcohol and tobacco, and I'm sure I'm missing a few law enforcement activities).

Why am I for it? Because it produces a federal database of this specific information that when linked with DNA and fingerprints obtained from a crime, will CATCH THE MALEFACTOR instead of just letting them run and hide in another state. Yes we do have programs in place that can do limited parts of that, but its not uniform nor applied uniformly.

As PB has iterated and reiterated in this thread. The only thing you have to fear is if you are unable to live within the constraints and laws of this society. And therefore will be subjected to closer supervision of your misguided activities and tighter ACCOUNTABILITY of your deeds.

The problem is the legislation allows for more information to be added to the database for these I.D. cards.

The argument that is you don't commit a crime than you have nothing to worry about is always used when encroaching on civilians civil liberties.

[Gan]

["Shocking that the size of government has doubled in ten years of a Republican congress." ] And 6 of those with a Democratic President. Your response doesnt hold water.

["According to the above information there will be no tracking of purchases and other miscellaneous activity "
This really again has nothing to do with anything. It didn't forbid it either. ] It has to do with some of the whining and conspiracy gnashing of teeth that has occurred in this thread - please re-read if you have short term memory loss.

["Why am I for it? Because it produces a federal database of this specific information that when linked with DNA and fingerprints obtained from a crime, will CATCH THE MALEFACTOR instead of just letting them run and hide in another state."
Yet this has nothing to do with domestic terrorism. ] So you say but I disagree, it has everything to do with crime - terroristic or otherwise.

["The only thing you have to fear is if you are unable to live within the constraints and laws of this society. And therefore will be subjected to closer supervision of your misguided activities and tighter ACCOUNTABILITY of your deeds. "
I love the antagonistic assumptions that I'm somehow a serial lawbreaker. Way to be a Texan. The "yous" are funny and insulting.] :lol: This wasnt directly aimed at you yet you feel the need to defend yourself and yet attempt to use Texan in an insulting way. You've either got a guilty conscious or I hit a nerve. Eitherway if you cant debate without calling names then you should go sit back up on the porch.

[That doesn't really matter to me though. With Lexis/Nexus being hacked and many other information databases being hacked this could actually become more of a tool FOR terrorism and other criminal actions. Let's examine the useful info on this card. ] This is information that is already available why do you feel the need to be threatened if its just located in a different place?

[Even if we don't go that far, the machine readable aspect is a privacy/consumer protection muddle of epic proportions. ] Your opinion yet again unless you're an expert on data reading technology which I would love to see a paper you've submitted on the subject.

[And your ideal that this won't cost a pretty penny is also hilarious. ] I never said pretty penny, but I did call you on your assumption that it would cost BILLIONS like you initially posted.

[Yeah, conservative Republican ideals. Just about as real as Bush is a Texan. ] Again with the insults, please see above and have a seat on the porch if you have to revert to cheap ineffective insults.

I believe you've about beat this conspiracy horse to death. Unless you can come up with more valid points or engaging recourse other than seeing how many ways you can use Texan in a derogatory way... I'm done arguing.

Feel free to get the last word in. I'm done with this topic.

[Edited on 5-17-2005 by Ganalon]

[Warriorbird]

As though you didn't? Multiple times? I just reread the thread.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Ganalon

Originally posted by xtc
Oh wait you're from Texas.......figures

The REPUBLIC of TEXAS thank you. And what in the hell does that have to do with this? If you're trying to be insulting then you really suck at it.

The Federal ID will have photo and other things that Social Security Cards DONT HAVE. I'm guessing that they COULD be included all into one form instead of multiple forms. And as for costing billions? Please, I think you're fuzzy math has gone to your head.

While I respect your opinion, I think its way off base.

[Edited on 5-17-2005 by Ganalon]

Texas has never been known for its civil liberties.

Regarding cost, 250 Million Americans who will get I.D. cards. A national database to track these cards, issuing these cards. Easily a billion dollars, if the card costs $10 that is $2.5 Billion dollars to start with. The Social Security Agency places the cost at $4 Billion.

What this legislation leaves us open to. They may not be employing yet but the legislation leaves us open to it:

"Paul warned that the legislation, called the Real ID Act, gives unfettered authority to the Department of Homeland Security to design state ID cards and driver's licenses. Among the possibilities: biometric information such as retinal scans, fingerprints, DNA data and RFID tracking technology."

http://news.com.com/National+ID+cards+on+the+way/2100-1028_3-5573414.html

If you can steal I.D. you can get an I.D. card.

Reasons why an I.D. card is unnecessary.

Reason #1: A national ID card system would not solve the problem that is inspiring it.

Reason #2: An ID card system will lead to a slippery slope of surveillance and monitoring of citizens.

Reason #3: A national ID card system would require creation of a database of all Americans

Reason #4: ID cards would function as “internal passports” that monitor citizens’ movements

Reason #5: ID cards would foster new forms of discrimination and harassment


http://www.aclu.org/Privacy/Privacy.cfm?ID=13501&c=39

[DeV]

It also opens the door to a new form of profiling, racial and the like.

[Warriorbird]

"And 6 of those with a Democratic President. Your response doesnt hold water. "

Under a Congress fully controlled by another party, a President has a lot of ability to STOP legislation... not start it.

"It has to do with some of the whining and conspiracy gnashing of teeth that has occurred in this thread - please re-read if you have short term memory loss. "

Now, as far as rereading goes. "It didn't forbid it either." Hmm...

"["Why am I for it? Because it produces a federal database of this specific information that when linked with DNA and fingerprints obtained from a crime, will CATCH THE MALEFACTOR instead of just letting them run and hide in another state."
Yet this has nothing to do with domestic terrorism. ] So you say but I disagree, it has everything to do with crime - terroristic or otherwise."

Like a terrorist is really going to be "hiding in another state."

"I love the antagonistic assumptions that I'm somehow a serial lawbreaker. Way to be a Texan. The "yous" are funny and insulting.] This wasnt directly aimed at you"

Guess what! A generalized insult is still an insult.

"This is information that is already available why do you feel the need to be threatened if its just located in a different place?"

Because, putting it out in such an insecure fashion makes it far more easily accessible by malefactors of any sort.

"Your opinion yet again unless you're an expert on data reading technology which I would love to see a paper you've submitted on the subject. "

Sure haven't written a paper, but I definitely qualify as a talented amateur. I was the consultant for my grandfather's business in all of his data reading applications. The accessability of a business to someone's personal info from a credit card is already vast. This would be even more extreme. An employee could do harm with a simple quick copy. I was subject to identity theft myself through a gas station in Kentucky a couple years back, I have some familiarity with the subject. At fault was an unethical employee.

"I never said pretty penny, but I did call you on your assumption that it would cost BILLIONS like you initially posted. "

So my misattribution allows you to?

I'm not sure billions is far off the mark, when you consider the state and non governmental costs as well as the Federal.

"Again with the insults, please see above and have a seat on the porch if you have to revert to cheap ineffective insults.
"

You're so very clean there. Living in a glass house and throwing stones is very common in conservative circles. You sure you're a real Texan?

:)

[Warriorbird]

:cackles: So, it isn't going to cost billions, is it? Easy to be done with a topic when you get pwned.

[Edited on 5-17-2005 by Warriorbird]