Parents and Discipline

[CrystalTears]

Rather than get into it in the swan thread, I figured I'd bring up my thoughts in a separate thread.

Since Arkans was making a case about some parents not appreciating or wanting other adults to do any sort of disciplinary action with their child, I wanted to find out why exactly a parent would feel this way.

Now I'm not really referring to spanking or hitting a child. I'm speaking more about scolding, punishing, pulling apart from a child or situation (which I don't consider force but apparently others do). Why is this a bad thing? Why is it more acceptable to be cross with the adult than it is for the child who was actually the one in the wrong?

Teachers no longer have the ability to discipline, along with other adults who care for children. Why was this taken away from people who deal with children as much, if not more at times, than the parents? If the parents are not always there to discipline, why is it such a crime that someone else step in?

Thoughts?

[Nieninque]

I'm kinda torn on this issue. I dont think other people should be manhandling chldren, but I dont see that as the be-all-and-end-all of discipline.

In the discussion about the goose, I think the other adult had every right to stop a child from kicking wildlife, I'm not sure that they would or should be able to grab a child by the scruff of the neck and drag them away from the situation...in fact, I dont think parents should be able to do that.

I guess my feeling is, that it depends how it is done.

There are a ton of reasons why other people shouldn't be disciplining some else's children. The sheer fact that just because you are a teacher and have extensive experience in teaching children, does not mean that you have even an shred of knowledge on how to properly discipline.

Not only that, but who's to say that these people would be instilling the values in the children that you want in the way that you want. These children are after all your responsibility and not theirs.

There is also the reason of a teacher coming into school in a terrible mood or having less of a tolerance to children and just whipping out the rod and taking it to a kid's ass right off the get go. It's a huge issue and considering that I am in the camp that believes that hitting children is the wrong way to, I'd sure as hell not want a teacher doing it.

- Arkans

[Nieninque]

Discipline does not have to mean physical chastisement.

Of course, but keeping a kid in for detention, making them stay in for recess, or even assigning extra homework is one thing. Even scolding I'm a little nervous about. I don't know what this teacher is saying to my kid at all and in what manner things are being said. I'm not exactly sure I want even that much power given to educators.

I'm in the camp of punishments and rewards. If a child behaves well, does as he is told, and breaks no rules then there is a reward. If the child does something wrong then I will do my best to educate the child on the consequences of their actions, make sure they understood and then assign a fitting punishment that would mimic something that would happen in real life.

Did something stupid? Dock the kid's allowance or something to imitate a fine that would be given in the real world. I see it as a far more effective means.

- Arkans

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Arkans
There are a ton of reasons why other people shouldn't be disciplining some else's children. The sheer fact that just because you are a teacher and have extensive experience in teaching children, does not mean that you have even an shred of knowledge on how to properly discipline.

Doesn't mean the parent is fully knowledgable in it either. I just don't see why some help in showing the right way to be with a child is such a crime.

[Miss X]

I really agree with Arkans. I would be very angry if another adult felt that it was acceptable to discipline my child and I'm certain I would never attempt to discipline anyone elses children, it simply would not be my place.

As parents you are solely responsible for bringing up your children and I generally feel that if children are very misbehaved then its the parents that need to go through a learning process regarding how to discipline children. I was brought up in a family where physical and verbal abuse (any form of smacking/hitting and shouting) was not used to discipline and I will bring my children up in the same way, it's very effective.

I really do agree with Arkans about the issues with teachers. I've seen teachers treat children very badly and say some pretty awful things to them, which effects self esteem as well as future behaviour. I would not want any teacher scolding my child in that way, that's my job. As Arkans said, give them detention or something instead.

If a parent is not around enough to provide proper discipline and time for their child then that is something the parents need to rectify, shoving that responsibility on to someone else is not solving the problem. If you don't have time to bring your children up properly, don't have them.

[Showal]

I'll agree with Arkans that discipline is solely the parents responsibility. It's obvious, though, that we disagree on what actually constitutes discipline. In the case of the goose and Killer Kitten and that kid, I don't see her pulling the kid's sleeve as physical restraint or real discipline, but rather as her way of immediately getting the goose out of harm's way. Arkans sees it as discipline and physical restraint. I understand what he's saying but I see it differently. It's just that, a difference in opinions.

This is just one of the situations that I am very extrem and very liberal about. Children, to me, are the most important part of our society and we as people need to do everything within our power to insure that they are provided every opportunity possible to advance themselves.

- Arkans

[Czeska]

If a stranger were to lecture my child (not even getting into physical discipline) I'd have a fit.

However.. if my child were in danger of hurting themselves, or harming an animal, and they were just removed from that situation enough to be safe, I would accept that. Of course, my kid is never out of my sight unless she's with someone I trust to care for her. So we're back to personal responsibility here.

[CrystalTears]

And obviously I disagree that the parents should be the sole person who can discipline a child when they are left in the custody of others. I'm not speaking about strangers, but even then, if a child is doing harm or getting hurt, I'd like someone to intervene.

[Showal]

Hopefully the goose situation would not have happened if the parents were watching the kid to begin with. I'm not saying they're "bad" parents but they probably wouldnt have been yelling at KK if they were there to begin with and we wouldnt be having this conversation.

[Showal]

People rely on other people to instruct and discipline their children every day. We expect coaches, priests (no molestation jokes), teachers, etc. to bring some sort of morals into our kids' lives.

[CrystalTears]

No, that's the thing, Showal. People don't want teachers, priests, coaches or anyone of the like to show any kind of discipline or morals into their child's life. That's why I was asking why not.

[Showal]

Well, we expect it and no one can really deny that it takes place. Kids learn through imitation and watching adults, not just their parents. I just feel like people will say they don't want other adults doing that but then want their kids in the situations where it will take place.

[Skirmisher]

Arkans et al, are you including family members in your term "parents" when you say only they should be able to correct children?

I know I sure as heck have no shyness about scolding my nephews if they are acting up. I have never had to spank them or anything, but if I was the only adult around and caring for them while they were simply outrageous I also have little problem with doing that if needed.

To me, as long as the children know you love them and are not doing things to just be mean there is no problem.

This of course is aside to those nutbags who cannot differentiate a needed spanking from a "damn I had a lousy day where is that brat cause i'm sure he needs a smack" kind of person.

[Showal]

I have to say I learned a lot from high school coaches about morality through sportsmanship. I learned a lot about discipline and work ethic from my teachers and employers. My parents, of course, helped refined it ... but these people did not play absolutely no role.

Well, my family is really all in Poland, so it's not like I am actually close to them. They're pretty much "strangers" to me now, so I'd never scold or discipline their children. If my mother scolded my kids, then by all means, she's close enough to me and raised me soooo :P

- Arkans

[Stunseed]

If I had failed at my job of disciplining my kids, and they acted out in a public area, being of age to understand good and evil, they get what is coming to them. The reason I say this, I see Arkans' arguement to an extent, but some parents take it to the extreme of the 5 year old in handcuffs ordeal, where that kids momma was ignorant of the fact of much she sucked so horribly as a parent.

I, as their parent, deserve twice as much as they get.

[Warriorbird]

Eh...I think there's a difference between showing "morals" and using discipline. Morals don't all have to be religiously tinged either.

I don't have a problem with teachers breaking up a fight. I do have a problem with five year olds in police cars.

I believe that lady was unfit to be a mother. The way she composed herself on TV said a lot as well as her comments. I feel bad for the child.

- Arkans

[DeV]

I agree with everything Showal has said so far.

If you really think parents are the only ones fit to discipline(in any form except for physical reinforcement), you've got another thing coming. They probably receive more reinforcement be it positive and negative from peers and outside influences other than from their own parents at a certain age. It's inevitable.

[ElanthianSiren]

I agree with almost everyone in the thread on some level.

I don't feel teachers should physically discipline students. I don't trust teachers to impart morals that I support to my children. I further, wouldn't trust strangers with my children. Until you can safeguard to me that a teacher will absolutely never go too far disciplining a student, any physical discipline by a teacher IMO is flat out.

I do, however, wholeheartedly support student identification cards for individuals to act loco inparentus, time outs, restriction, and board writing (hello Bart Simpson), as well as rewards :)

Consistent with this, I don't believe pulling a child away from a situation where he/she or someone/something else could be injured is wrong. I believe the term here that best applies is excessive force.

Because excessive force is a judgement call C.T., you and I will probably have different views on what is/isn't excessive. The actual argument here, then becomes the support for why you shouldn't let strangers discipline your kids.

-Melissa

[CrystalTears]

I don't think anyone should use excessive force on a child (then again my definition of excessive force is basically beating a child). However I do agree on discipline such as detentions, punishments, extra homework, a "talking to" per say. I have no problem with any of that.

What would be considered "excessive", you're right, is up to opinion. Personally, I leave my child in the hands of teachers and educators, and if they are acting up, i would give them every right to discipline them such as spankings and such. It worked fine with me, I see no problem with it being that way with my children. That's what makes us all different.

My question was about discipline. The act of pulling or pushing a child away from a situation where someone or something could get harmed was the only type of physical interaction I was bringing up because discipline does not in and of itself mean physical punishment.

[Edited on 5/10/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Tsa`ah]

"It takes a community to raise a child."

I think we have lost that as a society in the past few decades.

If a child is doing something that is unquestionably wrong (damage, inflicting harm) in the absence of a parent, but in the presence of any adult; that child should be scolded and sent to the parents.

This mamby pamby bullshit of "no one disciplines my child but me" is creating societal terrors. Obviously if your child is a destructive little shit, you haven't been doing your job. In doing so you have pawned a portion of that responsibility on the surrounding community. A community that has to deal with your destructive little shit and has every right to verbally discipline said child.

The "hands off" point of view is a sad exclamation point in any community.

Bring back corporal punishment in the schools, bring back the days when a community didn't put up with destructive and mouthy little shits, and bring back the days when your neighbor would march your child’s undisciplined little ass back to your doorstep with a report of his/her misconduct.

If you can't handle your children ... don't have them. Then again people are debating the words of Arkans; a guy without kids and a guy who has said he would pay for his teen child’s plastic surgery.




[Edited on 5-10-2005 by Tsa`ah]

[CrystalTears]

Thanks Tsa`ah. You said that better than I ever could. :)

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Arkans
Of course, but keeping a kid in for detention, making them stay in for recess, or even assigning extra homework is one thing. Even scolding I'm a little nervous about. I don't know what this teacher is saying to my kid at all and in what manner things are being said. I'm not exactly sure I want even that much power given to educators.


Then your children should be home schooled.

Teachers have the education and safety of all of their students to worry about. If a child is disrupting the learning environment, s/he should be disciplined and/or scolded. If the child continues or gets physically out of hand, s/he should be physically removed from the room.

Jorddyn, just my opinion

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Thanks Tsa`ah. You said that better than I ever could. :)

I knew what you meant. :yes:

[Amaron]

I have been a teacher in the Public school system for ten years.

I live in a rural area that is fairly poor. over half my kids are in a one parent home.

Their parents work whatever job they can which usually means second or third shift leaving kids home alone or with baby sitters who let them run.

I see my "Kids" more than thier parents do. Most likely I know more about thier social life and choices than the families do.

I know who is dating who.. and I know about the type of boy or girl they are dating. I hear about break ups and about bad grades before the parents do.

I know who snuck out of their house last night and who has had sex with who ( yes 7 and 8 graders are getting it on all the time)

I usually hear who has gotten into drinking and drugs.

I also hear who has gotten the highest grades or the solo in the band concert. I know who is having a birthday ( and I always tell them happy bday and give a small present because most likely no one at home remembered or had money for a present)

The parents trust my judgement with their kids.

When I have a problem. I document everything. I speak with my principal and I follow up with a call home.

I experience everything these parents don't but they are they parents and they need to know what Has happened and how I handle it.


If a student is misbehaving I may decide they cannot come on a trip unless the parents come along...

I have had parents come and eat with their kids at lunch because of behavior. I also have asked parents to watch outside my room while their kid acts out.


I have the responsibility to communicate with my parents.

BUT as a parent I have the responsibility to communicate with the teachers.


I WILL never hit a child that isnt mine ( yes I have spanked mine).


But I will let that parent know what I had to deal with and how it affected the students in the class or group.

Parents say NO punishing or scolding my kids... yet they send them off to school where they curse at adults, are defiant and disruptive. I have a responsibility to the other 100 kids in my chorus or 24 in my classroom to provide them with an education. BUT I will always follow up with the parents and document.

[Shari]

Tsa'ah :clap:


Perfect example: I have a (at the time) 4 year old nephew. The way discipline works in his house is...it doesn't. If the kid does something rediculously bad, dad steps in and swats him on the ass...at which point he goes crying to his mom, while she comforts him, telling him that daddy is just in a bad mood. What the fuck does this teach? Kid doesn't learn that what he was doing is inherrently wrong, and mom makes dad look like the bad guy. Ontop of that, both parents jokingly encourage the kid to "Hit uncle Scott, go on, hit him." This is what really irritates me. Of course, I don't say anything because 1. I'm not part of the family (technically yet) and 2. Its not my kid.

Anyhow, I'm at Scott's dad's house for a family event, and his brother's family (with the holy terror) is there. Everything is fine and people are chatting it up, I've got my back turned to "holy terror" and without me knowing he comes barreling up behind me full force and shoves me so hard I nearly fall over, thus spilling soda all over the floor in the process of regaining my balance. Furious, I turn around, grabbing holy terror by the wrist and shouting at him, "You do NOT shove people!". I didn't yank, or otherwise squeeze his wrist until his hand turned blue, but the shout was enough to send him screaming and crying to his mommy.

Mommy proceeded to tell him that aunt Shari is weak and can't handle being picked on by him. It was at that point I told Scott I was going home with or without him.

SO, next day holy terror's mother calls SCOTT, of all people, and tells HIM to tell ME, to not discipline her kid. Not only was she too cowardly to talk to me to my face, she's telling me to leave her kid alone when it starts antagonizing me. Bullshit.

Things have since improved, but from now on when either of her kids are acting out, I politely ask her to make an attempt in disciplining her kids, since according to her, I'm not allowed to do so. I think she hates me. :D

[Edited on 5-10-2005 by Jesae]

[Jolena]

I grew up in the atmosphere of "It takes a village to raise a child" and I too, miss those days. However in my own household, we follow this rule and probably always will.

The teachers my children deal with are exactly as Amaron describes herself. It's your responsibility as a parent to get to know their teachers, speak to the administrator/principle if you've questions about their history that you can't ask the teacher themselves, make yourself accessible by cell phone/home phone/work phone/even message phone so that the you and your child's teacher can talk on a regular basis about your child and his/her progress and setbacks.

Think about it. Your children are in school for thirteen years and that is 5 days a week, about 9 months out of the year. Of course they are going to influence your kids. Of course they are going to experience your children's bad behavior and good behavior, their triumphs and set backs. It is only natural that they would also form opinions and not only that but become involved in a manner that they feel the need to discipline (not spanking, I don't agree with allowing a teacher to spank) your child. If you don't trust your child's teacher, it's YOUR responsibility to get to know them better, ask questions and even request for your child to be transferred to a different class.

Personally, when my children are at school, I have no problem with the teachers scolding my child if he/she is in need of it. I trust them and know them well enough to be safe in that. My friends and family who have charge of my children for whatever reason, are also at liberty to scold and even spank my children in rare instances. At home, we use different forms of discipline. It depends on the situation. Sometimes they get spanked, other times it's scolding/grounding/etc.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Jesae

Mommy proceeded to tell him that aunt Shari is weak and can't handle being picked on by him.

[Edited on 5-10-2005 by Jesae]

I think it is relatively clear who the weak one there is.

Stories like that are all too common and make me sad for the future.

[Jadewolff]

There is a flip side to this as well. I had an uncle that was a horrible parent in my opinion. He took discipline to an extreme where he emotionally traumatized my cousin. I remember times when he’d tell her to behave and she’d give him a disgruntled look (not abnormal in my opinion) and he’d smack her really hard to the point where her face was all red. She was 5 at the time. It was hard on me, being 6, to see anyone being treated that way. Then there was that time he found out she had a boyfriend at 12 (she was actually never allowed to date) and chopped off all her hair while she was sobbing and begging him not to. He knew it was her one vanity. He would go on and on about how spoiled I was to my parents because I didn’t really take his shit when I would stay over at their place(regardless of my age).

The reason for this behavior, on my part, was because my mom had told me that there were some things he wasn’t allowed to do to me…one of which was hitting me and the other was forcing me to do something they wouldn't force me to do. She told me I was actually allowed to talk back to him. I can imagine how some people might think she was wrong in what she told me. How it might have taught me to that I can talk back to all adults. But I never did. Maybe it’s because she taught me to respect adults as well as not let someone push me around if I “knew” it was wrong. Parents can find a way to balance it if they make the effort.

[Warriorbird]

I was an absolute nightmare to teachers.

[Jolena]

I think that there is nothing wrong with telling a child that he/she doesn't have to accept certain discipline from a family member as long as that family member is also told that he/she cannot do that to the child. And I'm sorry but if your Uncle was that abusive why were you all left in his care to begin with? That is the parent's responsibility, once again, to research the person that you leave your child with.

[Jadewolff]

Being raised in another country, that behavior was not considered wrong...just wrong to my parents. Which is why they didn't ever do anything about my cousin and what she went through. He did know he was not allowed to touch me. He just didn't like that he couldn't dictate me and scare me either. My mom (his sister) made sure of that. Hence, his complaining that I was spoiled.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
If a child is doing something that is unquestionably wrong If there's anything the progenitor to this thread has shown us, it is that there is disagreement over what is "unquestionably wrong".

While we're on the topic, I'd like to point out that kids were not perfect little angels back in Tsa`ah's day (or even earlier, when physical punishment was the norm). If they were, we wouldn't have the parents of today, would we?

[Kyra]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Thanks Tsa`ah. You said that better than I ever could. :)

:yeahthat:

K.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
"It takes a community to raise a child."

I think we have lost that as a society in the past few decades.

If a child is doing something that is unquestionably wrong (damage, inflicting harm) in the absence of a parent, but in the presence of any adult; that child should be scolded and sent to the parents.

This mamby pamby bullshit of "no one disciplines my child but me" is creating societal terrors. Obviously if your child is a destructive little shit, you haven't been doing your job. In doing so you have pawned a portion of that responsibility on the surrounding community. A community that has to deal with your destructive little shit and has every right to verbally discipline said child.

The "hands off" point of view is a sad exclamation point in any community.

Bring back corporal punishment in the schools, bring back the days when a community didn't put up with destructive and mouthy little shits, and bring back the days when your neighbor would march your child’s undisciplined little ass back to your doorstep with a report of his/her misconduct.

If you can't handle your children ... don't have them. Then again people are debating the words of Arkans; a guy without kids and a guy who has said he would pay for his teen child’s plastic surgery.




[Edited on 5-10-2005 by Tsa`ah]

A "community" would that be a village? Sorry couldn't resist.

Western society is built on the nuclear family. Eastern societies are built on the extended or whole family, which I believe is healthier for a child and can be easier on the family overall.

I am not sure I would agree on giving everyone 18 plus carte blanche to spank my kids. However I do support bringing back discipline in schools, including corporal.

BTW it is namby pamby :grin:

[Edited on 5-10-2005 by xtc]

[Vixen]

I come from a pretty big family thats spent most of our lives in very small towns. Maybe its not the norm, but my experience has been in the south that everyone has an opinion on your child. If a child is being obnoxious in a grocery store, hearing a stranger make a comment like "Don't you talk back to your momma that way.", is so normal its almost expected
I definitely wouldn't want another person or stranger spanking or disciplining my child that way, but I don't see anything wrong with other forms of punishment or scolding, provided they fit the offense. So many teachers are powerless to even put kids in time out half the time without expexting a law suit or world war three. Or a lot of times parents dont even get to see what their children are doing, and if no one else can speak up and show the child that their actions are wrong... then it will just snowball until its completely useless trying to take it into hand by that point.

Maybe its because I have 4 weeks till my impending motherhood. But I have noticed mothers and childrens interactions a lot more than I ever did, and how strangers react to them...

Sorry, Tsa'ah, not everyone is silly enough to believe in the outdated farmboy method of having some communal child rearing society or, even worse, some train of thought that allows some teacher, that may or may not be competant, to actually beat my child.

It is a ridiculous notion, expecially since people find different behaviors acceptable than others. Why would I even consider, let alone allow, someone to discipline my kids on the basis of their morals or tollerances? I'll punish my kids for what I find they need to be punished and how I feel as though they need to be punished. The last thing I need is someone imposing their wills on my children. Hell no.

- Arkans

[CrystalTears]

And not everyone is silly enough to expect that the parents can be the panacea for a child.

Of course not, but any parent can assume full responsibility for punishing a child.

- Arkans

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Arkans
Sorry, Tsa'ah, not everyone is silly enough to believe in the outdated farmboy method of having some communal child rearing society or, even worse, some train of thought that allows some teacher, that may or may not be competant, to actually beat my child.

If, heaven forbid, you ever have a child or children, and you aren't competent enough to teach them respect and acceptable behavior ... you have then created a problem/s that those outside of your family (community) have to deal with. Physical discipline should be the last ditch effort. However, if your kids are throwing rocks at my dog ... your kids will first get their little asses chewed out by yours truly. Then your kids will be marched back to your house where the behavior and consequences will be made known to you (the supposed responsible parent). It's not baseball, there aren't 3 strikes. The second time your kids get the hose. Then the drenched little bastards are returned to you (the now proven irresponsible parent) with a warning that another incurrence will result in legal action.

There's nothing "farm boy" about this. This is common fucking sense. If you can't handle the thought of other people stepping in where you have failed ... go get your nuts snipped off now and save everyone the headache.

You will never need to worry about the competence of others when your competence can't be questioned.


It is a ridiculous notion, expecially since people find different behaviors acceptable than others. Why would I even consider, let alone allow, someone to discipline my kids on the basis of their morals or tollerances?

Typical extremism on your part. Not much different than your arguments about drunk driving.

There will never be such a case if you raise your children to be respectable. If you don't like the idea of your child being disciplined ... do it yourself and make damned sure no one else will have to.


I'll punish my kids for what I find they need to be punished and how I feel as though they need to be punished. The last thing I need is someone imposing their wills on my children. Hell no.

- Arkans

Unfortunately there aren't any pre-reqs to breed. Until then, expect others to step in where you fail.

[Edited on 5-10-2005 by Tsa`ah]

[CrystalTears]

If you're around them 24/7. If you're not, to tell those that are guiding and caring for your children in your absense that they have NO right to discipline your child is a bit much, IMHO.

[Showal]

<<I was an absolute nightmare to teachers.>>

Me too. I know that for all the bitching I did in elementry and middle school when i had a teacher scolding me and yelling at me, I deserved it. I wouldnt have admitted it then, but I did deserve it. You'd see that when I went home and told my parents the situation, they knew I deserved it too.

My girlfriend teaches in a middle school for project kids. Their parents/grandparents/foster-parents/godparents/whoeverthefuckguardians either don't discipline them at home or turn everything around on her. Kids will call her a bitch and when she calls home, they'll come in the next day and say "My mama told me that I can do this in your class because it's ok" ... I said something about how a parent putting down another adult in front of their kid will make the kid think it's ok to disrespect the other adult, this is a good example. Everyone probably has the "outcast" in their family or the odd nephew/cousin that's treated like a child and not listened to regardless of their age ... even the kids who considerably younger learn real quick that it's ok not to respect them because they've seen everyone else do it.

I just keep feeling like people have this mentality that "their son/daughter" would never do these bad things or that someone else scolding their kid makes them a "bad parent". I wouldnt be surprised if the parents of the kid that Killer Kitten stopped from beating the goose actually yelled at her out of embarassment.

The fact is that a child is going to be away from his parents at some time, whether it be school, a sport, a camping trip, etc. Unless you home school or never leave your child's side, at some point your kid is going to do something they should not be doing when you're not there and they're going to be disciplined by someone other than yourself. If your kid doesnt have this opportunity, they're not going to be able to appreciate what's considered respect to different people and how to act around other people because you're sheltering them. Truthfully, your kid's going to get upset and cry sometimes and maybe it'll happen when they get scolded by someone else ... deal with it.

America's growing into a society of weak parents, I'm not saying all parents are weak parents ... most are good but it's becoming more and more popular to believe this "hands off" as Tsa'ah put it. I'll say it, disagree with me, but I think the belief that no one can discipline your child is a naive and weak parenting style. Other people influence your kid, other people will discipline them ... if you go to the school to yell at the teacher for yelling at your kid just because you dont agree with it, you're a weak parent. If someone else disciplines your kid because you're not there and they DESERVE it, dont go off whining about how someone else yelled at your kid.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Arkans
Sorry, Tsa'ah, not everyone is silly enough to believe in the outdated farmboy method of having some communal child rearing society or, even worse, some train of thought that allows some teacher, that may or may not be competant, to actually beat my child.

It is a ridiculous notion, expecially since people find different behaviors acceptable than others. Why would I even consider, let alone allow, someone to discipline my kids on the basis of their morals or tollerances? I'll punish my kids for what I find they need to be punished and how I feel as though they need to be punished. The last thing I need is someone imposing their wills on my children. Hell no.

- Arkans

I guess I have some farmboy in me as well, despite being raised in an urban centre. Anyone who has ever had a dog knows about socialising it, and the difference it makes.

In small rural communities where everyone knows everyone, a child is loved and cared for outside his/her immediate family. I think this beneifts the child greatly. Now I don't think this means everyone gets a shot at the kid. It does mean that if a kid is getting off the rails lots of people will notice it and inform the parents. The kids probably have a few adults in the community that they look up to and that have a positive influence on them.

Despite my dislike for Hillary Clinton, she was right it takes a village.

March my kids back to my house if my kid is throwing rocks at your dog. Be my guest. Press legal actions against them/me if it happens again, sure. It is within your right. Now, what is farmboy about your views is this love of corporal punishment. A teacher hitting a kid? You've got to be kidding me. Just because a teacher can teach does not mean they know how to discipline. You have pleanty of legal recourse to use against a destructive kid. None of which need to involve physical actions by you against them.

I full intent to raise all the children I may have to have respect and understand for all rules and authority. When they screw up, I'll be there to administer punishment. That, though, is my job and my job alone.

- Arkans

[Tsa`ah]

If your child is a discipline problem in a school setting, that child needs to be disciplined. The only thing a child learns with "hands off" is that the parent is the only person they have to behave around.

That said, if you don't like it ... home school.

Or I can accept there is no corporal punishment and send them to school. That sounds like the best option. I see nothing wrong with a teacher calling me with a problem, assigning extra homework, assigning detention or something along that line. I'll not have my kid scolded or hit. I just don't believe that works at all.

- Arkans

[CrystalTears]

No offense, but teachers tend to have better education about children than parents do, which is why I have no problem with them disciplining mine some day. To say that you know better on how to treat your child more than a teacher that's been doing it for years is rather presumptuous of anyone.

Learn who the teachers are and their methods and the thought of someone "beating" your child won't be an issue.

I think there should be a class that people should be obligated to go to before being allowed to have children, but that would be rather dictatorish idea for me to think up. Heh.

[Edited on 5/10/2005 by CrystalTears]

Teachers can educate my children better than I can. I'll only go that far. Teachers have their own morals, their own values, and their own styles of child rearing than me. I do not want their methods instilled into my kids. They will punish based on school policy and only within policy.

- Arkans

[CrystalTears]

And your child will be boring, boring, boring if they only one formula of morals to follow.

Of course they would, but they'll have social interaction as well. I am quite sure they will be able to refine my methods and come out even better for it.

- Arkans

[xtc]

Originally posted by Arkans
March my kids back to my house if my kid is throwing rocks at your dog. Be my guest. Press legal actions against them/me if it happens again, sure. It is within your right. Now, what is farmboy about your views is this love of corporal punishment. A teacher hitting a kid? You've got to be kidding me. Just because a teacher can teach does not mean they know how to discipline. You have pleanty of legal recourse to use against a destructive kid. None of which need to involve physical actions by you against them.

I full intent to raise all the children I may have to have respect and understand for all rules and authority. When they screw up, I'll be there to administer punishment. That, though, is my job and my job alone.

- Arkans


Spare the rod spoil the child.

I'd rather not follow some outdated doctrine, thanks for the input though ;)

- Arkans

[Amaron]

Originally posted by Arkans
March my kids back to my house if my kid is throwing rocks at your dog. Be my guest. Press legal actions against them/me if it happens again, sure. It is within your right. Now, what is farmboy about your views is this love of corporal punishment. A teacher hitting a kid? You've got to be kidding me. Just because a teacher can teach does not mean they know how to discipline. You have pleanty of legal recourse to use against a destructive kid. None of which need to involve physical actions by you against them.

I full intent to raise all the children I may have to have respect and understand for all rules and authority. When they screw up, I'll be there to administer punishment. That, though, is my job and my job alone.

- Arkans


I agree that you as a parent should be told when your kids screws up...

And you as a parent should punish them...

BUT

As a teacher of 7 and 8 grade students:

If your student is keeping me from teaching the others in my room who also have every right yours does to a good education then your child is violating their rights and its MY responsibility as a teacher in the school district to ensure that your child does not do it again and I will use whatever is in my power according to the rules and laws established by the school district.

We NEVER use corpral punishment. Not even when we have permission from the parent.


Those punishments in my school are as follows:

1. a meeting with the teacher and an apology to those offended by what your kid did.

This usually means clarification of the rules.. how your child broke them and how it affected my class room. So in other words a scolding. I will also give a writing assignment to be signed by the parent.

2. A meeting with the vice principal
And calling you in for a meeting

3. suspension in or out of school.

The above can vary on the situation.

if this happens too often :


You child is expelled and legal action can be brought against them for his or her stepping on the rights of the others in the class.

When your child is in public... your child's behavior affects everyone about them from the table next to you in the restaurant to the family next to you in the movie theater.

I am hoping you do bring your kids up tp respect others... but what you want to do doesn't always happen even in the best of families.

I would challenge you to volunteer in your local public middle school for lunch duty or hall duty. I think it might open your eyes.

Many students I "scold" are from families who are good parents and brought up their kids to respect others...

When the parent is out of the picture many lessons also go out of the picture.

I have two children in school and I hope they always do what I have taught them to but I am not naive to think they do and they are punished as need be and I want to know when they are doing wrong.

I guess I wandered about here but I deal with too many families who put shutters over their eyes when it comes to their kids who they raised right.

J

[Edited on 5-10-2005 by Amaron]

[Edited on 5-10-2005 by Amaron]

[Amaron]

Originally posted by Arkans
Teachers can educate my children better than I can. I'll only go that far. Teachers have their own morals, their own values, and their own styles of child rearing than me. I do not want their methods instilled into my kids. They will punish based on school policy and only within policy.

- Arkans


Sorry to keep harping here but now you change your stance...


So now we can punish as long as we stay in the school guidelines..

My school has corporal punishment...

We do not use it but it still in policy and within the bounderies of school law.

Teachers do not punish students outside the school policy or they are fired and sued.

J

Let me clarifiy.. Normal schools that do not allow corporal punishment can follow school lines. The pyschopathic puritanical schools need not apply. Amaron, the actions your school takes (beside the corporal punishment) are very reasonable and acceptable.

- Arkans

[xtc]

Originally posted by Arkans
I'd rather not follow some outdated doctrine, thanks for the input though ;)

- Arkans

Some doctrines are timeless.....

[Amaron]

Originally posted by Arkans
Let me clarifiy.. Normal schools that do not allow corporal punishment can follow school lines. The pyschopathic puritanical schools need not apply. Amaron, the actions your school takes (beside the corporal punishment) are very reasonable and acceptable.

- Arkans

I agree they are and the new school rule we have of excessive disruption is wonderful. We have expelled 3 students now who were considered an excessive disruption. The parents pay for tutors after school hours when they cannot bother other students.


As it stands I have never heard of a spanking as punishment in my school. Its just not used.

But unless you check into your school policy you are naive to think its not there.

And again I challenge you to spend time at a public middle school...

And see how students from good families who brought their children up right act.


J

[Jolena]

If by scolding, Arkans, you mean a teacher telling your child what they have done wrong and why it's wrong, before assigning some type of punishment (outside of corporal) then you will never avoid your child being scolded in a school or in any outside setting. You can't expect a teacher to just hand out a punishment to a child without explaining what they did wrong and why it is wrong. That would not lead to the child learning a damned thing other then they got in trouble although they don't know why or what for.

If that's not your definition of scolding, please elaborate. I never see a teacher yell at a child or tell them they are horrible people etc and that is the only other thing I could see you thinking is scolding.

[HarmNone]

I can certainly understand a parent not wanting another person, whose motivations might be called into question, spanking (or otherwise physically punishing) their child. However, I don't really understand what the problem is with scolding a child, putting a child in time-out, or using some other form of non-corporal punishment to ensure that the child is not allowed to wreak havoc just because that child is of a mind to do so at the moment.

Perhaps, Arkans, you could define your connotation of "scolding". I'm wondering if you're being misunderstood by some people.

Heh. Jolena beat me to it. ;)

[Edited on 5-10-2005 by HarmNone]

[Tsa`ah]

The problem with Arkans' argument is that he lacks the understanding of a parent and is forming his opinion out of perspective lacks knowledge.

I can't say I wasn't of the same mind 9 years ago. With 9 years of experience, that perspective has changed.

I would be more upset with an adult NOT stepping in during my absence than I would with my child being scolded for doing something beyond questionable.

Then again, I don't believe my children would be in those positions because I have taken the time and precautions to see that they understand what respect, responsibility, and consequences are.

[HarmNone]

Well, it's often been said that those who have no children of their own always have the most, and loudest, advice on how children should be raised. ;)

[Killer Kitten]

Originally posted by Arkans
March my kids back to my house if my kid is throwing rocks at your dog. Be my guest. Press legal actions against them/me if it happens again, sure. It is within your right. Now, what is farmboy about your views is this love of corporal punishment. A teacher hitting a kid? You've got to be kidding me. Just because a teacher can teach does not mean they know how to discipline. You have pleanty of legal recourse to use against a destructive kid. None of which need to involve physical actions by you against them.

I full intent to raise all the children I may have to have respect and understand for all rules and authority. When they screw up, I'll be there to administer punishment. That, though, is my job and my job alone.

- Arkans

I'm just curious about how you expect this 'marching' to be accomplished without taking your kid by the arm. In the other thread you said you'd have hit me for one light tug on the shirt sleeve of a kid who was kicking a helpless animal to death.

If a kid knows that their parent will go on the offensive towards any other adult that chides them for their behavior they're not going to allow that adult to 'march them home'. What they'll probably do is give the adult the finger and run like Hell.

I was born in the 1950's and raised in a city neighborhood full of kids. Everybody had a hand in raising everybody else's kids. If I was acting up down the street, the lady down the street whose kids I was cutting up with would give me the same holy hell she gave her own kids. Furthermore, she would be on the phone to my house as soon as she was done, and I could expect even worse from my mother.

We were taught to respect other people. God help you if you mouthed off to any adult. Your parents would have three or four phone calls (from the person you lipped off to and all witnesses) before you were halfway home.

There was a cranky old lady who lived across the street from us. Every evening she'd call a kid at random out of the group that was always playing on the street to come take her trash out back for her. You'd have to climb up all her steps, then haul a bag of smelly swill out to the cans in the back alley. She'd give you a nickel for doing it. A nickel was quite a big tip in those days, especially for how fast you could hump that trash out of her house.

If I had ever ignored her when she yelled for me, or refused her, or accepted that nickel, I wouldn't have been able to sit down for a week. We were told that she was old and old people were to be helped and respected. All adults, in fact, were to be helped and respected.

We were paddled at school if we misbehaved. The few occasions when I got paddled at school I remember getting a hell of a lot worse at home. My mother's attitude was that if I was accused of misbehaving, I must be guilty of SOMETHING or I wouldn't have been accused.

Any time I met a kid whose parents actually stood up for them against other adults I was always speechless with astonishment. The funny thing was, the kids whose parents always believed them over teachers or other adults were generally the worst behaved lying shits you'd ever want to meet.

I think it's a real shame that the 'community' approach to child rearing is a thing of the past.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Killer Kitten
I think it's a real shame that the 'community' approach to child rearing is a thing of the past.

I agree. With all of it, but mostly the above. It's very sad to me.

[Brattt8525]

I was raised in a very small town where everyone knew everyone. It was not uncommon for the nextdoor neighbor to scold you, then take you to your parents home to tell them what you did.

Now in todays society that is almost a thing of the past for many good reasons. Most of us don't really know our neighbors, the fact that people are kidnapping children left and right not to mention the freaks who sexually abuse them or "flash" them etc.

In the case of KK had it been me I would have placed myself between the child and the animal never laying a hand on the child due to knowing full well if I saw someone touching my child that I didn't know they had better throw dirt and run. Most parents myself included are paranoid of anyone talking to their children. Sad as it is it is reality.

I am not saying that KK is technically wrong, I am saying that sadly the kids do belong to the parents. That is another sad reality because in essence them yelling at KK showed the child he could do as he pleased.

I am left with a damned if you do damned if you don't state.

[Skirmisher]

I tend to agree with the whole community aspect.

Some purely anecdoteal justification of my own is as follows.

I remember when i was very young, perhaps 6 or 7 it was winter and I threw a snowball at a neighboring older woman (to my young self at least, I would say she was 60 or so) walking by.

I have to say I really did not think I would hit her as I did and still do have simply awful aim. Imagine my astonishment when it flew perfectly and struck her square in the face sticking to her face and glasses. She was understandably quite upset and rushed over to me and pushed me down and rubbed my face in the snow for a second and then grabbed my arm and took me to my door and waited to tell my mother what I had which led to me being yelled at again. I remember being stunned at my mother not only not yelling at the woman but then reprimanding me in front of her. Oh the shame! :nono: The woman was a sweet lady and a friend of mine before and after, but was, correctly, not going to allow anyone to abuse her without taking action.

I deserved every bit of it and never threw things at people without being aware of the potential consequences again.

I'm sure today someone would sue the woman for inflicting some kind of emtional damage upon her precious child when it was instead a valuable lesson for me and one which stuck clearly with me through all these years.

[Tsa`ah]

The atrocities that happen in today's world (abuse, rape, molestation, kidnapping) are no more frequent, per capita, than they were in the past. It is only the technology of communication that you hear about it more.

You can live in fear as a prisoner, thus feeding and instilling that fear in your children, or you can live a normal life and teach your children how to react.

I really don't care how freaked out someone is about a potential kidnapping. If a child is beating an animal in my presence, that child will be snatched the hell up by the scruff of their neck, ear, or nearby appendage, reprimanded, and marched home. From there it's on the parents.

I'm really sick of the fear and pansiness that infects today's society.

[Killer Kitten]

The kid was between me and the goose, and there was really no way to stop the next kick without touching the kid.

I figured tugging his sleeve was the least invasive way to stop the kick. The animal didn't look so hot and for all I knew that next kick would have killed it.

I'm surprised I acted with such restraint as far as the kid went, since the sole thing on my mind at that point was saving the animal. I never thought for a minute that any parents would be anything but grateful for somebody preventing their child from doing such a thing. If the kid had killed that goose, he'd have had to live with that on his conscience for the rest of his life.

[Snapp]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I think there should be a class that people should be obligated to go to before being allowed to have children, but that would be rather dictatorish idea for me to think up. Heh.

A class and a test. Not dictatorish to me at all. I grew up in a house where my mother had a daycare. It still blows me away the stories she has about some of these kids and their parents. For daycares, they have to get licensed out the ass with so many strict guidelines. I don't see why it'd be such a big deal to make people take some kind of parenting class (as that's an even more important job).

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
The atrocities that happen in today's world (abuse, rape, molestation, kidnapping) are no more frequent, per capita, than they were in the past. It is only the technology of communication that you hear about it more.What makes you think kids acting up is any more frequent?

[Gan]

This is a topic very near and dear to my heart... I can relate and have history of abuse in my family and as a parent I struggle with the fear that I will even become a hint of what my step father was to me.

Without getting deep into the debate of corporal punishment and discipline with children I would like to just make one comment. Or maybe two.

In all cases, the parents HAVE to be smarter than the children they are attempting to raise.

Secondly, there is no textbook answer to perfect parenting. Sooo many variables come into play on both sides - nature and nurture. Anyone claiming to have the universal answer to parenting is delusional.

[KymberlynX]

Originally posted by Snapp
A class and a test. Not dictatorish to me at all. I grew up in a house where my mother had a daycare. It still blows me away the stories she has about some of these kids and their parents. For daycares, they have to get licensed out the ass with so many strict guidelines. I don't see why it'd be such a big deal to make people take some kind of parenting class (as that's an even more important job).

It's so true...babysitters have to be licensed in CPR. Do parents? :rolleyes:

I could honestly say that if Jordyn choked or needed CPR when she was in my care, both of us would be in trouble. :(

I think all parents should at least be required to know CPR and the Heimlich (sp?) maneuver before becoming a parent. :yes:

I know a couple of classes that I'll need to be taking here shortly. :smilegrin:

[Gan]

CPR is definately a good idea. My wife is an RN and ACLS/BLS certified and I get certified every year whether I want to or not...

Re-certification is always good to learn the latest techniques and devices. The principal manuevers though usually remain the same. And once you are familiar with their application you should not hesitate to use them if the circumstance arises whether you are updated or not; as your actions are usually protected under most states good samaritan codes.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
What makes you think kids acting up is any more frequent?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22school+shooting%22&btnG=Google+S earch



[Edited on 5-11-2005 by Tsa`ah]

Okay, a bit of responding I need to do, so stay with me. I'll try to answer to every point that was raised against me arguement.

The most prevalent was being ask what defines "scolding". A fair question and to me the act of scolding is actually yelling at the kid and attempting to intimidate them into behaving. Since yelling at a kid goes with intimidating (except when used in a way to motive) I am strongly against both. I am very for a teacher using rationalization and then administering a punishment and would be hard pressed to find a better solution. Take for a example a disruptive student, you tell them they are acting up, how, the consquences, and administer detention or the many of other options available.

Now, as far as inexperience, sure. I have no kids, but that of course that doesn't prevent me from thinking, seeing how my cousins were raised, and actually discussing parenting techniques with other parents and forming my own opinion. Of course my own personal bias goes in as well. Though, I am happy to report, that it doesn't take much to actually think and form an opinion on how things should be done. I mean, we all have political opinions and how politics are run, but how many of us are actually politicians.

Now, as far as how "marching a kid down to me" could be done without force, well, you either go yourself if the kid refuses to come along, pick up the telephone, or call the authorities. Either way it gets the problem resolved. There is no reason to use physical force on a kid. Expecially if the kid is not yours.

- Arkans

[drigore]

Okay, without reading every single post in this thread, I'll put in my two cents. While it's a parent's main job to take care of a child and teach them in right, wrong, and education, there is no problem with someone else stepping up to bat when it needs to be done. Period. The simple fact remains that no one will be held responsible for their actions anymore. Oh, not my kid, I'll just let him keep on shooting up the school. There are no repercutions anymore for kids being in trouble, generally speaking. The masses wonder why DCYF is in everyone's homes doing their job for them, but they can't touch, yell, swear, whatever to any child, and in the same breath say..Oh, we can't understand why they're making pipe bombs and blowing up the people that pick on them. Well, I just said it, because of people like Arkans (only because I breezed over your first few posts do I point you out) saying it's not my kid, don't touch my kid, it's my job, do we have the government stepping in and neighbors going behind your back calling the authorties. Parents now a days, especially in big cities where a lot of the problems are anyway, just pop the kid out, and run back to work while the child is in daycare or some relatives house. Yes, I'm rambling. I was brought up old school. I got the shit beat out of me a few times, but my father is very respectful, and I'm none worse for the wear.

I do understand that there are parents that bring shit too far. Like putting hands in boiling water for touching things at the store, or being locked in a closet for being too hyper. However, with more and more people turning a blind eye to bullshit that kids do, it's only going to get worse with younger, and younger kids dealing, killing, maiming, and causing destruction simply because there are no punishments anymore, period. The supreme court overturned a bunch of death penalties recently due to a new law saying that no one under 18 can get put to death anymore. Sorry, but if at 16 you kill 20 people in a store, or football game, you know right from wrong.

/me end rant.

* Edited to add. Yes, I am a parent of three daughters. 12, 8, and 4.

[Edited on 5-11-2005 by drigore]

[Edited on 5-11-2005 by drigore]

[Jolena]

A tad unrelated I spose, however I was made to learn infant and juvenile CPR before I could bring my son home from NICU after he was born. It's something they do with all NICU kids.

[KymberlynX]

Originally posted by Jolena
A tad unrelated I spose, however I was made to learn infant and juvenile CPR before I could bring my son home from NICU after he was born. It's something they do with all NICU kids.

They should do it with all babies period. :yes:

[KymberlynX]

On topic, as I said in the swan thread, if I didn't witness the kicking but only saw the pulling by a stranger, I probably would have reacted the same as the parents of that kid did. Of course if it was explained to me why the stranger did the pulling, then I would address that with my kid and deal with the matter once I got her home.

In any other situation, I'm really not sure how I would react if someone I didn't know used any type of force against my daughter, but then again it would depend on the reason behind it as well.

Family, babysitter, teachers I would condone them to take disciplinary steps to an extent but I would never be comfortable with any of them using force on my daughter or talking down to and/or calling her names.

Her grandparents could get away with smackng her on the butt or hand, but that would be about as far as I would be comfortable letting them go.

[The Cat In The Hat]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Rather than get into it in the swan thread, I figured I'd bring up my thoughts in a separate thread.

Since Arkans was making a case about some parents not appreciating or wanting other adults to do any sort of disciplinary action with their child, I wanted to find out why exactly a parent would feel this way.

Now I'm not really referring to spanking or hitting a child. I'm speaking more about scolding, punishing, pulling apart from a child or situation (which I don't consider force but apparently others do). Why is this a bad thing? Why is it more acceptable to be cross with the adult than it is for the child who was actually the one in the wrong?

Teachers no longer have the ability to discipline, along with other adults who care for children. Why was this taken away from people who deal with children as much, if not more at times, than the parents? If the parents are not always there to discipline, why is it such a crime that someone else step in?

Thoughts?

Ok, I'll put my two cents in here. It really depends on the situation. I have my own beliefs on how my child should be disciplined, and certain things warrant specific actions.

She's not allowed to use the water cooler, because she will just let it all flow out on the floor. This warrants a few minutes in the corner for her.

She runs towards the street and ignores my screams of "Guinevere, GET BACK HERE!" She gets a swat on the back of her leg, for almost putting herself in danger, and goes in the corner.

For my daughter, spanking's don't work very well, the only effective thing is putting her in the corner and forcing her to do absolutley nothing.

This is exactly the way I would expect any caregiver I deemed worthy of watching my child, to act.

The reason that kids are like they are is because there's no continuity between discipline at home and discipline they recieve in a daycare or school setting. These workers are not allowed to swat them on the back of their thigh when they run towards a busy street.

My daughter's never been in a daycare, and never will be as long as it's possible. Yeah, she's going to go to school... Im actually hopeing that the school will take her this year and yes, I expect them to keep her in line, but not cross the line.

There are so many parenting styles, and so many parents like to blow things way out of proportion that it's difficult with the laws today to enforce any kind of discipline.

Yes, I want them to put her ass in the corner for hitting another kid. Will they? Probably not, because in this day and age, I could sue them for it.

As far as strangers? They better have a damned GOOD reason for touching my daughter and be able to get it out in the 10 seconds before they lose their life. If they think my child just did something that she should be disciplined for, then it's MY job to do it, NOT theirs.

End ramble, just my two cents.


[Edited on 5-11-2005 by The Cat In The Hat]

[Tsa`ah]

I understand reservations about a child receiving disciplinary acts from an adult that is not the parent. However, we're not talking about scolding a child for running in the hallways, getting too close to the road, or even playing rough.

Can you honestly say you would be upset if your neighbor scolded your child for throwing rocks at moving cars? Perhaps in the case of the swans; killing or abusing an animal?

As I said, we're not talking about discipline for normal kid stuff. We're talking about the discipline of destructive and disruptive behavior.

I think any parent who demands "hands off" for such behavior is ultimately the root of the problem and shouldn't be a parent to begin with.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
I think any parent who demands "hands off" for such behavior is ultimately the root of the problem and shouldn't be a parent to begin with. And these are the same kids that have to be arrested at age 5 when no one can contain their out of control behavior because their parents are fucking dumbasses.

[The Cat In The Hat]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
I understand reservations about a child receiving disciplinary acts from an adult that is not the parent. However, we're not talking about scolding a child for running in the hallways, getting too close to the road, or even playing rough.

Can you honestly say you would be upset if your neighbor scolded your child for throwing rocks at moving cars? Perhaps in the case of the swans; killing or abusing an animal?

As I said, we're not talking about discipline for normal kid stuff. We're talking about the discipline of destructive and disruptive behavior.

I think any parent who demands "hands off" for such behavior is ultimately the root of the problem and shouldn't be a parent to begin with.

It's not a stranger's place to touch anyone elses child. Find the parent, tell the parent. It's the parent's job.

Now, if a stranger saw my child throwing rocks at cars, then they can say something to her, by all means. but they had better choose their words wisely because if my daughter tells me someone said "Hey you fucking little brat stop throwing rocks!" I'm gonna have a problem with that. Saying "Stop throwing rocks because you're going to hurt someone." And then informing me about it so I can handle it, thats a different story.

If my kid/your kid picks up a gat and starts bussin' then I'd expect some sort of physical reciprocation.

[The Cat In The Hat]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
If my kid/your kid picks up a gat and starts bussin' then I'd expect some sort of physical reciprocation.

yeah well... if my daughter starts shooting people then of course SOMEONE had better intervene physically. But I was talking about throwing rocks, not murder.

The only way I learned not to throw rocks as a little kid was when one actually hit ME in the head for a change!

I think the effects are still evident.

[HarmNone]

Rocks thrown from bridges at cars have been known to result in death. They can be, under the right circumstances, just as deadly as a gun.

[Killer Kitten]

My moment of contact with the goose kicking kid lasted less than a second and I didn't touch child at all, just a small tug on sleeve. After that my arms were full of goose.

I could see the parents freaking out if I'd kept hold of the child, because I could be kidnapping it or something. By the time they got there, though, I had the goose in my hands. I was talking at the kid, not swearing for perhaps the first time in my life, but with the bloody animal in my hands it should have been obvious to even the most obtuse person that I hadn't just interrupted my walk to harass a random child.

Like I said earlier, I really hope that they were ashamed and angered by their childs actions and their own failure notice it or put a stop to it.

This discussion has been really interesting and eye-opening for me, so much so that I took an informal survey at work today to see what other people would have done in that situation. The answers ranged from a horrified "You never touch somebody's child no matter what it's doing!" to "I'd have started kicking the shit out of the little booger and yelling 'how the fuck do you like it'"

[Warriorbird]

Don't mess with Mom and Dad!


...or teacher?

http://www.bratzapper.com

[Amaron]

Stepping out of my role as a teacher I have to say this:

If a kid is throwing rocks at a car and I see them I am not going to stand by and say

"oh suzie please stop. Its not nice to throw rocks at cars. where is your mommy so I can tell her?"

And while I do this they caused an accident that puts several people in the hospital.

And I agree with Killer Kitten..

if I see you kicking a dog or cat I am NOT going to stand there and say :

"Oh Johnny please stop that you could really hurt the animal and it is not nice. Where is your mommy so I can talk with her about it?"

In the meantime the animal is dead....

Tugging on a shirt or jacket is nothing and I believe, I say that cause I am not a lawyer I would have to ask my brother, under animal protection laws that goose has rights....

People have been sued and fined because of abusing animals and in the case of a child doing it the parents fined.


There is a problem with standing there and watching that kid kill an animal without stopping it them.

I hope one can at least see that saying "Oh please stop" will NOT work when I kid is that worked up to act like that.


J

[KymberlynX]

Originally posted by Killer Kitten
My moment of contact with the goose kicking kid lasted less than a second and I didn't touch child at all, just a small tug on sleeve. After that my arms were full of goose.

I could see the parents freaking out if I'd kept hold of the child, because I could be kidnapping it or something. By the time they got there, though, I had the goose in my hands. I was talking at the kid, not swearing for perhaps the first time in my life, but with the bloody animal in my hands it should have been obvious to even the most obtuse person that I hadn't just interrupted my walk to harass a random child.

Like I said earlier, I really hope that they were ashamed and angered by their childs actions and their own failure notice it or put a stop to it.

This discussion has been really interesting and eye-opening for me, so much so that I took an informal survey at work today to see what other people would have done in that situation. The answers ranged from a horrified "You never touch somebody's child no matter what it's doing!" to "I'd have started kicking the shit out of the little booger and yelling 'how the fuck do you like it'"

I didn't read in any of your posts that the parents actually knew what their kid was doing to the goose, only that they reacted to seeing you pull him away from the animal.

Again, I'm not condoning how they reacted given that they knew what their son was up to, but if all they saw was you pulling the kid by the sleeve and him trying to prevent himself from falling, I doubt they were in any right mind to be rational about the situation. They could have thought the blood on the animal was from the fishing line.

[Jazuela]

Cat in the Hat, what are you going to do, the day when your child says "Um, no?" when you try to put her in a corner for misbehaving?

Time out only works on kids who obey their parents. And kids who obey their parents don't really need a time out, since, y'know, they're obeying and stuff.

If my mom ever told me to stand in a corner when I was a kid I'd have snorted at her and continued doing whatever I was doing. I was a pretty rambunctous kid like that. Stand in a corner? Are you kidding? Fuggedaboudit. You and what army are gonna make me, hm?

Fortunately I never did anything all -that- bad in the first place. I was mischievous but didn't cause any serious trouble growing up. But there are LOTS of kids out there who do, and for them, a time out would result in mom being laughed at - or worse.