Two Swans Killed

[GSLeloo]

I just found this disgusting.. my mom told me today how she had read this article about these two boys in Central Park. Apparently they saw these two swans protecting their nest and they ended up snapping the neck of one swan and slitting the other swans throat. And although it didn't mention, we can probably presume they smashed the eggs.

Am I the only one who finds this disgusting? Why would anyone want to kill such beautiful creatures?

[peam]

Swans are pretty mean.

[HarmNone]

Nope. You're not the only one, Leloo. Why people would do something like that, however, is something only those people could really answer, I'd think.

[GSLeloo]

But they're pretty... Geese are mean.

[GSLeloo]

From what she said, they sounded like they were little kids actually.

[Parker]

There's something wrong with kids capable of this sorta thing...I see Charlie Manson's in the making.

[HarmNone]

Any creature is going to be more aggressive when there are young (or eggs) to protect. Geese, on the other hand, are just naturally pissy. ;)

[ElanthianSiren]

All things are mean when you are near their young. Human children have no respect for boundaries, then they get pissed off when they get bitten and it only escalates as they get older.

In New Hope a few years ago, a woman was moving to college and needed to find a place for her dalmation (yes, dalmation). The guy down the street agreed to take the dog in. He and his roommate cut off its tail, cut off its ears, then smashed its head with a brick when it bit them.

I think animal abusers should get eye for eye punishments.

-Melissa

[Edaarin]

See, I never understood the whole thing about it being worse because the thing was beautiful...

...kind of like hate crime legislation. A crime is a crime. Would be the same thing to me as if someone did it to a sewer rat.

[HarmNone]

I agree, Edaarin. Cruelty is cruelty. The appearance of the victim is of no consequence.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
But they're pretty... Geese are mean.

I'm assuming that if it were geese you'd be ok with it then? Because they aren't "pretty"?

So where were these kids parents during all this?

[Sylvan Dreams]

What horrible little brats. I hope their parents cart them off to boarding school.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage

Originally posted by GSLeloo
But they're pretty... Geese are mean.

I'm assuming that if it were geese you'd be ok with it then? Because they aren't "pretty"?

So where were these kids parents during all this?

My money is on one of three things:

1. At home fighting, humping, or gazing vapidly into the TV/monitor.
2. Standing there thinking it was "cute"/an expression of dominion of creatures or some crap like that.
3. At work

Whichever, they sure as hell weren't there teaching their kids proper protocol when in the vicinity of wild animals. Beyond killing the birds, those kids could have been seriously hurt by them -- all because their parents are irresponsible dustbunnies, whichever way you look at it.

-Melissa

[Edaarin]

I'd like to amend my post to exclude cats. Killing cats is acceptable and encouraged.

[Parker]

No, boarding school is nothing...doing something like that is obscene in the worst way...these kids need counselling.

[Farquar]

Originally posted by Edaarin
See, I never understood the whole thing about it being worse because the thing was beautiful...

...kind of like hate crime legislation. A crime is a crime. Would be the same thing to me as if someone did it to a sewer rat.

Sorry to get off topic but let me address the hate crime thing.

Society recognizes that mental state factors into the punishments associated with certain crimes. Eg. Killing someone in a fight v. premeditated murder. The punishments in these situations are vastly different (~5 yrs for manslaughter and 25 to life for murder). It takes a very dangerous, unstable person to commit premeditated murder, and this person is much more dangerous to society than the person that kills another during a fight, a situation that anyone can be pushed to.

Hate crime legislation doesn't punish thoughts or free speech. One is free to hate anyone he or she wants. What hate crime legislation punishes is hate as the sole justification for committing a particular crime. Hate crime legislation also reflects societal disdain for the nature of certain crimes. Some argue that it takes a more severe punishment to deter hate criminals who commit crimes for no "concrete" (and thus preventable) reason or benefit other than pure hate, rather than criminals who commit crimes for a perceived result (whether it be for money or revenge).

[AnticorRifling]

I actually agree with all of Edaarin's posts thus far in this topic.

[Chadj]

I was bitten by a swan once.

Fucking thing.

Edited to note that it was actually a goose. Geese suck. Swans are cool.

[Edited on 5-8-2005 by Chadj]

Who the fuck cares.

[GSLeloo]

Actually, no it wouldn't be ok if it was a goose. I may dislike geese cause they seem pissy but it isn't right to kill any creature. Especially in a horrible way like that. I was raised to respect animals and not harm anything, I never understood how anyone could find it ok to hurt an innocent creature.

I shoot things for fun.

[GSLeloo]

Well we're glad you get amusement out of it.. I simply don't understood why someone finds pleasure in destroying an innocent life.

Those swans were probably cocksuckers.

[peam]

Originally posted by RangerD1
Those swans were probably cocksuckers.

Post of the week.

[Snapp]

Originally posted by Parker
No, boarding school is nothing...doing something like that is obscene in the worst way...these kids need counselling.

Agreed. If nothing else, kids purposely killing creatures like that should definitely set off a red flag to the parents. Of course, I doubt the parents care.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Snapp

Originally posted by Parker
No, boarding school is nothing...doing something like that is obscene in the worst way...these kids need counselling.

Agreed. If nothing else, kids purposely killing creatures like that should definitely set off a red flag to the parents. Of course, I doubt the parents care.

Only if you care to inform yourself of a few of the precursors to violent criminal behavior: cruely to animals, excessive bedwetting, night terrors etc. Even then, I doubt any parent is going to say, "My kid is the next Bundy because he pees the bed a lot" and turn him/her in for treatment.

-Melissa

[GSLeloo]

I think if they knew the child slit the throat of a bird... like you can MAYBE break it's neck by accident... by slitting its neck shows intent. I think that should make them think that they should do something.

[Snapp]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
I think if they knew the child slit the throat of a bird... like you can MAYBE break it's neck by accident... by slitting its neck shows intent. I think that should make them think that they should do something.
They shouldn't be "playing" with wild animals to begin with! Argh, this kinda stuff pisses me off.

[Showal]

Maybe these kids were Tamral's friends and the swans were hackers. In which case, I think we can say the swans deserved it.

[Showal]

Otherwise, it is a bad thing. :grr:

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Snapp

Originally posted by GSLeloo
I think if they knew the child slit the throat of a bird... like you can MAYBE break it's neck by accident... by slitting its neck shows intent. I think that should make them think that they should do something.
They shouldn't be "playing" with wild animals to begin with! Argh, this kinda stuff pisses me off.

I dunno, I played with wild animals as a kid -- but I was educated not to disturb nesting animals and which animals to be wary of: ie how to ID a copperhead, black widow etc.

When I was a kid, I had full grown rabbits, baby squirrels, groundhogs etc come up to me, and if there was a stray in a 10 mile radius, it found me too. All wild animals are not the problem IMO.

I think the issue with child aggression on animals is more of a question of a lack of education. While an animal may not be aggressive, it certainly is going to be if its guarding its young. Any raccoon/opossum observed during the day is suspicious and to be left alone etc. Once the animal attacks however, regardless of the reason, the child feels justified in his/her retribution, even if the dumbass deserved to be attacked.

-Melissa

[Hulkein]

Those swans were heroes.

[Edited on 5-8-2005 by Hulkein]

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
All things are mean when you are near their young. Human children have no respect for boundaries, then they get pissed off when they get bitten and it only escalates as they get older.

In New Hope a few years ago, a woman was moving to college and needed to find a place for her dalmation (yes, dalmation). The guy down the street agreed to take the dog in. He and his roommate cut off its tail, cut off its ears, then smashed its head with a brick when it bit them.

I think animal abusers should get eye for eye punishments.

-Melissa

Okay, that just made me sick to my stomach.

That and the story I read once of how a family found a wandering dog on the road and then took it in and cared for it, which turned out to be a great dog. But, when they found it, the dog had its eyes poked out.

I look at my dogs and I cannot fathom how such a thing is possible.

I have yet to see any wildlife more sophisticated than pigeons, horses and squirrels in Central Park.

Don't swans or whatever hone in on bodies of water? Manhattan's reservoir is the only "body of water" in the park and the whole area is fenced in. I think this is just stereotyping us city-folk!

Yeah, so the kids fucked up. I feel bad for the birds, but let's face it, they are kids and sending them off to boarding school or slicing their throats is just ridiculously stupid. How about we nail the problem before it balloon and try to better teach these kids the consequences of their actions and what they imply. Also, until I have proof that they "smashed the eggs" that little accusation can fly out with the rest of the emotional out cries.

- Arkans

[Glavenfyre]

This is what I know, if an animal bites me, I am going to retaliate. I agree, there is no justification for slitting a swan's neck, but if I were walking in the park and the thing bit me, it's at least going to get kicked.

Just like when my neighbors dog bit me. Kicked. Has the thing bitten me since? Nope.

[Killer Kitten]

A couple of years ago I was doing my lunchtime power walk around the lake in Flushing Meadow Park when I came upon a Canada goose tangled in some fishing line and a little kid kicking the hell out of it.

I stepped in, pulled the kid away from the goose (by his sleeve, not touching the kid), and picked the goose up, all the while telling the kid that hurting helpless animals was a BAD THING. The kid looked to be about sixish, sevenish, something like that. (No kids of my own, not good at judging their ages.)

Next thing I knew two parents run over and start screaming at me. I show them the bleeding goose and explain that their child was in the process of beating it to death. They yell at me even more, their issue with me not that I had perhaps deprived their child of a food source but that I had dared to speak to and presumed to correct their child.

The father was working himself up towards hitting me, so I pulled out my radio and called the zoo. They sent a cart over for me and the goose, driven by the biggest keeper on staff and accompanied by the animal department supervisor. If I hadn't been exercising with my radio in my bag that family would probably have kicked the shit out of me and the goose.

Too many people nowadays raise their children to have no respect for other people, whether they be children or adults. Small wonder the life of a wild bird is nothing to them.

The goose ended up with lacerations from the fishing wire and a broken coracle from the beating. He was assigned to a student veterinarian for treatment and monitoring at the Bronx Zoo. The bird made a complete recovery and was released in Bear Mountain Park upstate, where it will hopefully encounter a more gentle class of citizenry.

[Back]

Originally posted by AnticorRifling
I actually agree with all of Edaarin's posts thus far in this topic.

I think Anticore has had too much asian food.

[Numbers]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
I have yet to see any wildlife more sophisticated than pigeons, horses and squirrels in Central Park.

Don't swans or whatever hone in on bodies of water? Manhattan's reservoir is the only "body of water" in the park and the whole area is fenced in. I think this is just stereotyping us city-folk!

Swans sometimes show up at the boat lake that's near the 72nd street entrances.

I think there's also a few ponds towards the north where swans also show up.

My guess is that the two kids were either two punks from Harlem, or two rich spoiled brats from Park Avenue.

[Kainen]

I agree that most parents don't teach their children to respect anything.. must less other people and animals. I, myself, have taught my child that you DON'T beat on or injure innocent animals. I remember coming upon a 4 yr old boy some years ago trying to shove a popsicle stick down a kittens throat. I yelled at the kid and the mother came out to see what was going on. She started on me untill I got in her face and asked her how she'd like me to do the same to her. Needless to say the kid left the kittens alone. There are just certain things you don't do. Harming innocent animals is one of them. Had that been my kid, he would have had a sore ass, and I would have forced him to talk to a police officer about what he did.

[Farquar]

I may be a liberal when it comes to politics, but I'm old school when it comes to child rearing. I've always subscribed to the "spare the rod, spoil the child" method of parenting. I strongly believe in negative phyisical reinforcement as a method of teaching children life lessons.

[Shari]

Licence to breed, people. There outta be a law.

[Nieninque]

In the UK these kids would be sent to the tower as swans are protected by the Crown.


Strange Country this...

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Atlanteax

I look at my dogs and I cannot fathom how such a thing is possible.


It happens a lot, not just here. Maine division of PETA still has a reward out for some asshat who duct taped a golden retriever's legs together, muzzled it, and put it in a trash bag before tossing it in the ocean.

http://www.maineanimalcoalition.org/artman/publish/article_448.shtml

Acts like that absolutely make me ashamed to be human 365/366 days a year.

-Melissa

If you're going to be technical there are only 365.24 days in a year.

I'd hit you too if you ever used force on my child. Keep your hands off my kids.

- Arkans

[Caiylania]

She didn't use force, she even said she was careful about that.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Arkans
Keep your hands off my kids.

- Arkans Read this post and then looked at your signature...

[Kyra]

Originally posted by Arkans
I'd hit you too if you ever used force on my child. Keep your hands off my kids.

- Arkans

FUCK THAT. IF my kids were ever caught doing something that ignorant & evil I would HOPE someone would beat their ass. I'm sure they would too because a stranger would be a lot nicer about than I would.

K.

She didn't use force? She touched the kid and pulled it away. If I saw ANYONE touching my kid, shirt or not, I'd be sure to lay them flat out. Have a problem with what my kid is doing? Tell me. Touch them and you'll be regretting that move for quite some time.

- Arkans

Good, then I can find something that your kid is doing that I deem inapproriate I will be the judge, jury, and executionar. We'll see how you like it.

- Arkans

[GSLeloo]

I didn't think the issue was where they were from or what kind of animal.. it's the fact that they'd do something so cruel to an innocent creature. If you ever watch those animal cop shows... my god it makes me want to work in animal rescue with a badge to beat people when they do things that horrific.

[Showal]

I don't like most of the things you do, Arkans. I'm going to drive to your place and smack you in the mouth for it tonight ... TONIGHT. Bring it, bitch.

Showal likes it rough and that's how he'll get it!

- Arkans

[Showal]

:cake:

I like cake too.

[Kyra]

It's not a matter of "deeming" it inappropriate, what the kid was doing WAS inappropriate.

Keep what I said in the context I said it in. If my kid were doing what that one was, AT LEAST get them to stop for gods sake. You want to come be judge, jury & executioner on my kids? Bring it on because they rarely if ever do anything to warrant it, they don't run around unsupervised & have been taught right from wrong, I have no worries there.

These days you ask little snots like that where their parents are(or who they are) & they will more than likely telll you to piss off & walk away. How do you find their parents to tell them again?? If you follow the kid, some good samaritan will probably call the law on you for stalking/probable kidnapping.

In that situation I would want someone to pull my kid away from the animal. What kind of a sick fuck stands around and just watches the little brat hurt something?

Maybe that's you all day long, maybe you would be proud of your kid for doing something like that. I would be horrified & my child would be in a world of hurt. I certainly wouldn't want someone to just look on & not say anything or do anything.

It wasn't as if Kitten hurt the kid at all. You'd kick someone's ass for stopping your child from hurting an animal when they didn't do any harm to your child at all? That's fucked up IMO.

She should have kicked the parents ass AND the kid, sounds like they all deserved it.

K.

[Showal]

I'd want someone to pull my kid away and to scold him if I wasnt there. I know I'd do it to someone else's kid if I saw it being done.

[Showal]

Hopefully I'll do that to Arkans' kid on day and I will ruin his life when he steps to these pythons.

Right Kyra, I'd definately sit and watch, you caught me. I'd cheer the kid on too. Then I'd light the nest on fire and piss all over it. After that, I'd eat a stork, but end up throwing out more than half of it. Oh, while I'm at it, I might as well make some mittens from cute kittens after I stomped on the nursing mother.

I'd lay Killer Kitten out flat not because she stopped the kid from hitting a goose, but because she laid hands on my kids. I'll be damned if some stranger decides to administer anything with force. Have a problem with what a kid is doing? Tell the parents or tell the kid to stop, but don't you dare touch my kid.

- Arkans

[Latrinsorm]

I'd touch him or her all the way to your house if I saw him or her beating on any of God's helpless creatures. I'd do the same if your kid was 20, why not when your kid is 8?

[DeV]

Originally posted by ArkansI'd lay Killer Kitten out flat not because she stopped the kid from hitting a goose, but because she laid hands on my kids. I'll be damned if some stranger decides to administer anything with force. Have a problem with what a kid is doing? Tell the parents or tell the kid to stop, but don't you dare touch my kid.

- Arkans So, you're trying to tell us that if a kid ever put their hands on one of your dogs, unwarranted, you would not put your hands on that kid to get them away from your dogs? You're saying you'd wait till the parents arrived so that you could "explain" the situation to them? Bullshit.

I see your point as far as using actual "force". But, what is your definition of force or laying hands on a child as you've described in your posts?

[Glavenfyre]

I don't understand why everyone seems to be so upset about how Arkans feels. I think he is perfectly in line, I mean, technically grabbing someone by the sleeve and dragging them away is illegal... its called assault. Should this be assault? I don't think so. Did the kid deserve it? Probably. The fact remains it's not really your place to touch the child.

[GSLeloo]

But what are his actions to the animal considered? You know you can actually go to jail for animal cruelty... Not saying an 8 year old would got to jail, I simply mean it is deemed a crime as well.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Glavenfyre
I don't understand why everyone seems to be so upset about how Arkans feels. It'd be weird if I was upset about how Arkans feels. I don't know about everyone else, but I am curious as to how he'd feel if the tables were reversed, and the animals in question were his. I don't advocate putting my hands on anyone else's child, however, every action comes with a consequence. That goes for the child and the adult.

I'd remove my dog from the situation, quite honestly. Just because I cannot use force to restrain a kid that does not mean I cannot use force to get my dog out of the situation. Simple as that. Now, if it was an adult stomping on my dog, then I would stomp on the adult. Simple as that. I do not tolerate destruction of my property at all, but using force on children that are not yours? Give me a break.

- Arkans

Leloo, if you start charging 8 year olds with this sort of crime, then I really hope you start charging them with every single crime they may commit. We cannot charge children that young with crimes, simply because they do not have the mental capacity to really understand what is it they are doing and the consquences of their actions.

- Arkans

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren

Originally posted by Atlanteax

I look at my dogs and I cannot fathom how such a thing is possible.


It happens a lot, not just here. Maine division of PETA still has a reward out for some asshat who duct taped a golden retriever's legs together, muzzled it, and put it in a trash bag before tossing it in the ocean.

http://www.maineanimalcoalition.org/artman/publish/article_448.shtml

Acts like that absolutely make me ashamed to be human 365/366 days a year.

-Melissa

That just made me sick to my stomach as well... :no:

.

Editted to add:

I bet that the 12 yrs golden retriever... was probably walking up to someone, being friendly and all, and then suddenly gets brutually attacked, and being an old dog, could not get away or was too confused by what was happening.

.

My dog will probably take a tennis ball and run up to someone and drop it before them, for them to throw... as that is his way of playing.
The thought of someone kicking him or attacking him after he does that is quite disturbing to me.
Fortunately I live in a small upscale neighborhood where that is rather unlikely to be an issue.

[Edited on 5-9-2005 by Atlanteax]

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Glavenfyre
I don't understand why everyone seems to be so upset about how Arkans feels. It'd be weird if I was upset about how Arkans feels. I don't know about everyone else, but I am curious as to how he'd feel if the tables were reversed, and the animals in question were his. I don't advocate putting my hands on anyone else's child, however, every action comes with a consequence. That goes for the child and the adult.

I think he's probably just trolling in this particular thread.

[DeV]

Your definition of "force" is interesting. I take it you were sparred the rod as a child because pulling a kid by their sleeve is not force where I come from.

I'll agree to disagree.

Your assumption would be wrong. Force was used on me. I did get a smack when I fucked up and it was not absusive, I tend to disagree with it.

- Arkans

[Kainen]

How about we dont turn this into an issue of what the lady did to get the kid away from it was doing to a bird? Because this whole "grabbing a kid by the sleeve to get it away from harming a swan is assault" is bullshit. "Don't touch my kid or I'll hurt you" fuck that.. if you can't keep your child from doing crap like those kids did then you need an ass whoopin too. Though, I will say, that if you are watching your kids so closely I would HOPE that an insident like this wouldn't happen in the first place. Too many parents are all about "don't touch my kid" or "my kid would never do that" to see whats really going on. Sometimes kids DO do stuff and they do get in trouble. The ONLY people that were IN ANY WAY wrong were the kids and the parents. So stop trying to turn this into the "oh poor kids were yanked away from beating an innocent animal and the parents should kick ass on who did it" issue. Frankly I hope like hell that you grow up before you have any kids Arkans.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Arkans
Your assumption would be wrong.
- Arkans So are you saying you consider it to be "force" when someone is pulled by their shirt sleeve away from potential harm or danger upon themselves or someone else be it a human or animal? I think that's where the descrepancy remains. I'm curious.

[Glavenfyre]

"grabbing a kid by the sleeve to get it away from harming a swan is assault" is bullshit.

It probably is... But it's the law.

[CrystalTears]

I can understand getting upset if someone touches their child unnecessarily, as in just to grab for no reason or to talk to. But if the child is in danger or in the way of potential harm, I think it would be fine to pull that child away. If the parent is not available for consultation, I just couldn't just stand around and see it happening without doing anything. It would just be unethical of me to do.

What Kimm did for that goose and child was fine and don't see it as a force. I bet had that child not been pulled away and the child DID get hurt, I'm sure she would have gotten yelled at by the parents as well, there is no winning with some parents.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Glavenfyre
"grabbing a kid by the sleeve to get it away from harming a swan is assault" is bullshit.

It probably is... But it's the law. Which type of assault would that be listed under? Also, if a kid were being pulled by the sleeve to avoid being hit by a car, bus, or train perse, would the assault charge be upheld or overlooked?

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by Kainen
How about we dont turn this into an issue of what the lady did to get the kid away from it was doing to a bird?

AGREED!

[Glavenfyre]

"Which type of assault would that be listed under? Also, if a kid were being pulled by the sleeve to avoid being hit by a car, bus, or train perse, would the assault charge be upheld or overlooked?"

If you want to find out I suggest the next time you get pulled over by a cop, you grab his sleeve, or even touch his clipboard

[CrystalTears]

What does the example have to do with touching an officer when you get pulled over? Is the cop in danger of getting run over or something? There's a difference between touching to intervene from danger, and touching just to be an asshole.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Glavenfyre
If you want to find out I suggest the next time you get pulled over by a cop, you grab his sleeve, or even touch his clipboard Here let me help.

If the victim has been actually touched by the person committing the crime, then battery has occurred. If the victim has not actually been touched, but only threatened, then the crime is considered to be assault.

Furthermore...

Assault and battery are intentional, meaning that a person actually intends to put the "other person" in fear of being battered, or intends to wrongfully touch the "other person".

Okay, this is getting slightly ridiculous. You cannot compare saving a child from being hit by a car to physically restraining a child for whatever reason. Unless the adult has expressed permission from me and I have given them authority, they better not restrain my kid. It's actually a bit odd that we are comparing to saving a life to physically restraining. Yeesh.

- Arkans

[Edaarin]

Battery requires touching with general intent to touch that is offensive to a reasonable person.

There's no distinction in crime between "battery" and "assault."

[Hulkein]

There's nothing wrong with moving a kid away from kicking an animal to death.

[CrystalTears]

So if you see two kids fighting with each other, we're supposed to just them kill each other because the parents aren't present?

If there is a danger involved, even if it's as small as a bite or scratch, it would be unreasonable to believe that it should be left alone just because the parents aren't available to discipline them. Having a child beat a defenseless animal makes it even more reason to pull the child away.

If your child is prone to that type of behavior, work on it before he encounters an animal so that no one needs to pull him off in the first place. Just because a child isn't disciplined doesn't mean the rest of us have to take it.

[Showal]

<<There's no distinction in crime between "battery" and "assault." >>

Assault can be verbal (criminally) while battery is always physical.

<<If there is a danger involved, even if it's as small as a bite or scratch, it would be unreasonable to believe that it should be left alone just because the parents aren't available to discipline them. Having a child beat a defenseless animal makes it even more reason to pull the child away. >>

Furthermore, if a kid is beating an animal senseless ... especially an animal like a goose that groups in a flock and dont have problems or fears attacking humans they feel are threatening them ... the kid is also putting himself in danger. You could potentially saving both the animal and the child from being hurt. If you look at it that way, they're both defenseless. If an animal is attacking a child, people would have no problem with someone grabbing the child to protect it, regardless of who's kid it is. Attacking an animal, whether it appears helpless/defenseless or not, is also dangerous for the kid attacking the animal.

[Showal]

Now can we get off this and get back to the topic? The topic isn't "Two Swans Killed and Your Idea of Effective Parenting" or Two Swans Killed and What You Would Do To Someone Pulling Your Kid Away From Doing The Same."

[GSLeloo]

Originally posted by Arkans
Leloo, if you start charging 8 year olds with this sort of crime, then I really hope you start charging them with every single crime they may commit. We cannot charge children that young with crimes, simply because they do not have the mental capacity to really understand what is it they are doing and the consquences of their actions.

- Arkans


Now finish what I originally said..

"But what are his actions to the animal considered? You know you can actually go to jail for animal cruelty... Not saying an 8 year old would got to jail, I simply mean it is deemed a crime as well."

Especially the part after the "..."

What I was saying was.. you are saying it is a crime for her to touch that child. It is also a crime for an animal to be abused. Is it not right for her to stop a crime? She didn't throw the kid, she simply removed the object from his possession. That's like saying you saw a nine year old stabbing another nine year old but decided to not do anything cause they're kids.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Edaarin
There's no distinction in crime between "battery" and "assault." No, but there is a clear distinction between what constitutes battery and what constitutes assault. And though often committed together, they are separate torts. I agree that a crime is a crime.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Arkans
It's actually a bit odd that we are comparing to saving a life to physically restraining. Yeesh.

- Arkans Because they go hand in hand in this instance. You said no one better put their hands on your kid even if your kid is not saving a life because their too busy causing harm or damage to an animal. That's where my curiousity arose.

When did I ever say that I would lay someone out for saving my kid? I doubt the goose was mauling the kid to death in that instance as well.

- Arkans

[Showal]

Arkans, I'm warning you. I will cut you. You hear me? Do I sound like I'm kidding? I will cut you.

I will spill out your guts and tell fortunes with your entrails.

In a fighting situation there is imenent danger to a child. When a kid is kicking a goose to death, there is no imenent danger. Scream, remove the goose from the situation, or find the parents. There are pleanty of options.

- Arkans

PS: Obviously animal cruelty is against the law, but prosecuting an 8 year old is borderline retarded.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Arkans
When did I ever say that I would lay someone out for saving my kid?
- Arkans Not in those words exactly, but I was reading between the lines.


Originally posted by Arkans
I'd lay Killer Kitten out flat not because she stopped the kid from hitting a goose, but because she laid hands on my kids. I'll be damned if some stranger decides to administer anything with force. Have a problem with what a kid is doing? Tell the parents or tell the kid to stop, but don't you dare touch my kid.
- Arkans

You read too much into it. I never even considered that a possibility of my point.

- Arkans

[DeV]

Originally posted by Arkans
I never even considered that a possibility of my point.
- Arkans That's what I dislike about general statements. But, I got your point.

[Shari]

I'm sorry, but an 8 year old is competent enough to know what they are doing, and whether it is right or wrong. If the child thinks its okay to beat on an animal, clearly the parents need a talking-to.

Animal abuse in Arizona is a felony in this state. Would I have hit the child if I was in the same situation? Hell no. I would have pulled the child away, tended to the animal, and started demanding to know what the hell the child was trying to accomplish.

So since children at that age know the difference and the ramifications, then they should be all be brought up charges as adults would be.

- Arkans

[Shari]

Did I say that?

The reason we do not charge 8 years as adults is because we know they are not competant enough.

- Arkans

[Parker]

What happened to the good old days? I hear stories all the time of people who would discipline kids, though they were not their own, just because it was the right thing to do. Hmm, this sounds a little odd.

People are making the statement that these kids should be charged with a crime. Fine, I don't agree with the viewpoint, but I can sorta see the reasoning.

Now, there are other people making the statement these kids shouldn't ever be touched, under any circumstances, unless they were in imminent danger of being harmed.

I'm going to start a NEW viewpoint!

I think that you should pick these kids up, and sit em down somewhere and try to explain to them why what they're doing is wrong, lest the suffer the danger of being arrested and charged with a crime.


...Hah! I win.

[CrystalTears]

I just feel that the attitude of "don't ever touch my child" is by people who don't really discipline their children to begin with.

If I did something stupid as a child and an adult pulled me aside, physically or not, to put some sense into my head, my mother sided with the adult. When I was disciplined at school and came home with a note, I didn't hear her say, "I'm calling the principle because this is an outrage" but instead she would ask, "So what did you do to deserve it?"

It's rather sad how pathetic society has become. Kids are becoming serious nancies or complete lunatics.

[Praefection]

Back on topic, sorta. But aren't swans considered semi endanged or at least protected? So, if that little shit was killing swans I could see how their could be legal problems with it. (Although I personally think the little bastards need a brick upside the head. I can't stand people who raise their children to abuse animals.)

[Parker]

I don't know, I figure that people, for the most part, should deal with their kids...there's nothing wrong with spanking kids, or dealing with their behavior in a physical (within reason) way.

A letter from school is far different than some stranger putting their hands on my kids.

- Arkans

[peam]

Quit looking at me, swan.

[ElanthianSiren]

I didn't see that Kimm actually hit the child, though I did see the definition of assault to be force that is applied excessively in the situation.

I doubt that a judge would find it excessive to pull a kid away from a goose that it was beating to death.

I don't doubt that a judge would find it excessive if Arkans kicked Kimm's ass later for doing so.

Geese are rather dangerous birds -- especially around nesting time. They're also fast and have a group mentality, so the idea of the kid being in danger isn't as far fetched as it may sound.

I don't believe in allowing other people to beat your children. Discipline is a parental thing IMO and definitely not good coming from a stranger. I think though, there is a huge difference between wailing on a child and removing him/her from harm.

Further, in this situation, most likely, the kid is going to get away with whatever because a mature adult is probably going to be more concerned with getting the injured animals to a place to hopefully recooperate.

-Melissa

[Killer Kitten]

I didn't see any parents anywhere near the kid when I walked into the situation. There were a bunch of adults and children in the nearby playground/picnic area but until the parents showed up I didn't know which adults that particular child belonged to.

They were either not paying attention to what their child was up to or they were watching the kid kick the goose and not bothering to stop it. From a non-parent point of view, neither seems like something an ideal parent would do.

I didn't drop-kick the child into the lake, or slap it, or body slam it. I caught a pinch of fabric from the sleeve of the kids shirt and tugged, causing the child to step back from the goose and realize that an adult had arrived and the fun and games with the animal were now over.

Zoo employees are often called to the scene of injured/stray wild animal incidents in the park. There was a precedent for my taking charge of the situation.

I admit that I was astonished that the parents were angry, not at their child for assaulting a helpless animal but at me for stopping the assault. I radioed for backup because I saw the situation starting to head south and I just wanted to remove myself and the animal from the vicinity. I know that had I been that child my mother would have thanked a stranger for interfering in that behavior and whalloped the snot out of me. The reaction of these parents seemed to me to reinforce the goose-kicking behavior. If one day I see their picture under the headline 'Teenager Murders Parents' it probably won't come as any huge shock to me.

If I had the situation to do over again, I would react in the same manner. Birds are delicate and the kid was kicking it. Any kick could have landed in such a manner as to cause the death of the animal. The prudent course of action seemed to be to get the kid to stop the kicking before he could land that death blow.

Wow, so now this kid is a potential murderer as now. This is absolutely ridiculous. I've also noticed that you made absolutely no effort (as far as what you said in your story) that you did not just yell at the kid to get his attention. You just decided, "Hey, let me put my hands on this kid". Frankly, I'm at a loss on how you could be surprised that the parents were pissed.

Hey, it's great that some parents here condoned having forced used on you guys by strangers, but that would never fly with with me. There were pleanty of alternatives that you could have used, but just refused to.

- Arkans

[Stunseed]

< There were pleanty of alternatives that you could have used, but just refused to. >

Such as doing to the kid what the kid did to the swans. :yes:

Edited to add that ( the situation above ) would teach him not to harm defenseless animals again. Also, spare the rod = spoil the child is in my opinion why things like this happen.

/Red Foreman
Boot in the ass.
/end Red Foreman

[Edited on 5-10-2005 by Stunseed]

[Killer Kitten]

Originally posted by Arkans
Wow, so now this kid is a potential murderer as now. This is absolutely ridiculous. I've also noticed that you made absolutely no effort (as far as what you said in your story) that you did not just yell at the kid to get his attention. You just decided, "Hey, let me put my hands on this kid". Frankly, I'm at a loss on how you could be surprised that the parents were pissed.

Hey, it's great that some parents here condoned having forced used on you guys by strangers, but that would never fly with with me. There were pleanty of alternatives that you could have used, but just refused to.

- Arkans

Oh, I yelled 'Hey stop that!' as I hurried over to the kid. He either didn't hear me or chose to ignore me. I'm not one of those soft talking types, so odds are he was ignoring me.

And, yeah, I can easily see a child starting with small animals and working his way up the food chain to people if such behavior is not stopped by his parents.

I guess you're right in that I shouldn't be surprised that some parents do not discipline their children. It probably shouldn't surprise me that the first reaction of parents like this to an outsider stopping their child from committing a sadistic act on a helpless animal is anger.

Somebody in this world has to have a sense of decency and responsibility and put a stop to crap like this when they see it happening. I do. Apparently you do not. Different people, different moral codes. I'd rather be assaulted by an idiot for trying to do the right thing than have to spend my lunch breaks walking past the rotting corpse of an animal whose death I could have prevented.

This is a pretty wild and baseless assumption in thinking that just because I don't want some stranger putting their hands all over my kids that I wouldn't discipline. In fact, I can assure you that I would, but that will be administered by me or by people that I have given permission too.

Frankly, I still see it as amazing that an 8 year old kid can be linked to being a psychopath just by kicking a goose. I'm sure you were not there the whole time and I would really love to know on why it happened. You have no idea if it bit the kid or acting in a belligerent manner. Also, how loud could you really have yelled? I'm sorry, but if you yell loud enough at a kid then it will make them turn around. This story smells fishy to me.

- Arkans

[CrystalTears]

I see nothing fishy with this story. Only thing fishy is your attitude. For you, pulling a child by the sleeve away from beating an animal to death is "putting hands all over my kids". You need a serious reality check.

If your boy was touched or slapped, then fine, get pissed off. But pulling him off of beating up an animal? You have serious issues to be against an adult with morals because your precious child is too stupid to know that kicking an animal to death is wrong. Even if he was bit, it's not reason enough to kill something to death.

My god Arkans. Seriously. You would rather stand around and allow people to see your child beat an animal to death? What other ways are there other than yelling and pulling him gently away? And Kimm is far from being this meak, quiet person (sorry Kimm :D) so if she yelled, the boy is either ignoring her or deaf.

How do I need a serious reality check if some stranger is grabbing my kid? That is my responsibility and mine alone, not some belligerent zoo keeper. I'm sorry, but there is no way around it. She could have easily removed the goose from the situation or tried harder to let the parents know. They were obviously in the vicinity or on their way if they managed to see the kid being grabbed.

As far as my it not being a justification to kill an animal if it attacks you? That's a whole different story, but I'm all about self defense in most cases.

- Arkans

[Showal]

I would probably have reacted in the same way, KK. I used to use swim lessons and I had to grab many kids by the arm, not the sleeve, to get them to stop fighting or whatever. Kids don't respond to the "HEY STOP THAT" as well as adults, it's almost as if they don't hear it. If they hear it, they generally dont listen to it.

The kid's probably not going to become a murderer, but there's probably no reason why his parents should have reacted the way they did. I know when my brother used to pick fights with me, my parents would get us BOTH in trouble. My brother just saw my parents getting angry at me and whenever he wanted me in trouble, he'd start a fight. Yeah, so you grabbed their kid. Cops and people in authority always grab kids if they're causing trouble because a lot of times it's the quickest way out of the situation and an effective way to get attention. KK could have blown an air horn, fired a shot into the air, or something along those lines and it would have stopped the kid too. I just can't see why it was a big deal that you grabbed her kid by the sleeve. Arkans, besides the fact that she laid a hand on the kid, what was the harm or what do you see as offensive? I think I'm just missing what you're seeing as wrong. I know you don't think someone should lay a hand on someone else's kid, but in this case, what do you see as being wrong?

I do think the parents getting mad at you made him believe, if not that he was right, that you were wrong. It just establishes a pattern of kids feeling like they don't have to listen to other adults besides their parents. When parents get mad at teachers for getting their kid in trouble, it does the same thing and the kid will still act up in class.

What I find wrong is that some complete stranger is using force on a kid when his or her well being is not threatened at the time.

- Arkans

[CrystalTears]

You still have to stop the child from kicking it to get the goose away.

And I still don't see how pulling someone from their sleeve away from a situation as grabbing someone. And she just said that she didn't know who the parents were. Are you saying she should have just shouted, "Will the parents of this child please make him stop kicking the goose??!" Personally I think it's a waste of time when you can just take care of it yourself.

All she did was pull him away by his clothes. She didn't even touch him personally. I just think you're being extremely exaggerated with this.

Besides, yelling at the adult who is in the right in front of the child just reinforces how his behaviour was justified and that other adults are okay to be disrespectful to. It's just bad parenting as far as I'm concerned.

[Edited on 5/10/2005 by CrystalTears]

That could have very well been a viable options or maybe even putting her self in front of the goose. If the well being of the animal was that important than it shouldn't be that much of a problem.

Clothes or not, force was still used by a stranger on somebody's kids. This is something that every parent should be alarmed with, expecially when so many different options are available to stop a situation like this.

- Arkans

[CrystalTears]

It's just sad to me that a parent would be more upset about an adult stopping a child from beating an animal, than the beating of the animal in and of itself. At least acknowledge that your child was in the wrong if you're going to be pissy at the adult for crying out loud.

Of course my child was in the wrong, but I'd rather be in charge of discipline and any physical force that may be administered.

- Arkans

[Showal]

<<What I find wrong is that some complete stranger is using force on a kid when his or her well being is not threatened at the time.

- Arkans>>

I guess we just have different ideas of what force is. If KK leaned the kid over her knee and began spanking him, well, I'd be upset and I'd see that as force. Same thing if she grabbed his arm and yanked him back and held onto it while she yelled at him.

I dont really see grabbing someone's shirt as forceful discipline. If you're walking in a busy place and someone wants your attention, they'll generally tap you or tug on the back of your shirt. It's an attention getter, not really force. I know it's a different situation, but I see it as very similar with intent.

When someone is trying to get your attention, then it is just that. Killer Kitten was physically restraining the child, something completely different.

- Arkans

[Showal]

I guess we're reading the passage differently.

<<I stepped in, pulled the kid away from the goose (by his sleeve, not touching the kid), and picked the goose up, all the while telling the kid that hurting helpless animals was a BAD THING.>>

I'm reading that as she pulled him away and then picked up the goose. A process of I imagine 5 seconds, at most. I'm not seeing it as her physically restraining the kid. I dont remember reading anything afterwards from her that says she physically restrained him either. Maybe KK can clear this up for us with some more details.

Physical restraint was used even for a short period of time. The goose could have been picked up without grabbing the kid.

- Arkans

[Showal]

Maybe, but that would have put KK at risk for being kicked herself.

<<What I find wrong is that some complete stranger is using force on a kid when his or her well being is not threatened at the time.>>

Then KK's well being would have been threatened, if even just a small amount. I'm seeing her well-being as being just as threatened as the kid was physically restrained ... slightly.

If an 8 year old could cause her harm then she has no business working around animals.

- Arkans

[Showal]

That's what I meant by her well-being being threatened slightly, not enough to merit her "defending" herself. I see it as being along the same lines as the kid being physically restrained, just slightly.

There is no possible way that an 8 year old could hurt her in any way. If it could then she should not be working with animals. Animals who are much stronger than 8 year old children.

- Arkans

[Showal]

What I was getting at was that I consider the risk of KK being harmed to be as slight as the amount of physical restraint that she used on the kid. I understand she was not really in harm's way, but I don't see her physically restraining the kid to really be physical restraint. It's just a difference in opinions.

Just an agree to disagree situation. Unless someone provides some amazing case or logic to me that I havn't considered, then I'll be hard pressed to allow any stranger touch my kids.

- Arkans

[Kyra]

Originally posted by Arkans
If an 8 year old could cause her harm then she has no business working around animals.

- Arkans

Haha...okay. I have an 8 y/o who knows quite a few different ways to hurt an adult WAY worse than any goose would ever be able to hurt a person.

I'm pretty sure she isn't the only 8 y/o who has been taught to defend herself & be on the offensive if necessary.




I came upon a Canada goose tangled in some fishing line
Birds are fragile & simply snatching up & removing this animal would not be a viable option without incurring considerable more damage than what had already been inflicted.

K.

[Showal]

How about you have kids, I throw them around, then when you come at me yelling I can show you my massive pythons. How do you like that amazing logic?

I got your PYTHONS RIGHT HERE! :penis:

Goose.. MAYBE. Those things pinch and pinch hard, but other animals heck no. All she needed to do was to pick up the goose like she did without grabbing the child. It couldn't get easier.

- Arkans

[Showal]

I'll goose you.

You'll never be able to handle this much man.

- Arkans

[Skeeter]

I would've knocked that kid on his ass, and then embarassed the parents for being such total pieces of shit to allow their kid to do that in the first place.

Then I'd cross post the whole incident into the Justifiable Fisticuffs thread.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Arkans
There is no possible way that an 8 year old could hurt her in any way.Exactly how tough do you think your shins are?

Anyhoo, there is inevitably a line that a kid will cross and you (Arkans) will step in and restrain him or her, whether you (Arkans) know him or her or not. Some people put the line at beating an animal. You might put the line at the child brandishing a gun at your family. To say there is never an instance where you would step in would be irresponsible at best, and to say you are allowed to step in but not a stranger would be the height of moral hypocrisy.

Kicking a goose is a lot different than having a gun pointed at my family. You can't even compare the two.

- Arkans

[Showal]

I'll agree with the analogy in one way ... the goose and your family's lives would be at stake.

Families >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than a fucking goose.

- Arkans

[DeV]

Originally posted by Arkans
Kicking a goose is a lot different than having a gun pointed at my family. You can't even compare the two.

- Arkans It's not easy to distinguish what you actually mean when your statements regarding children and punishment have been so generalized.

[Showal]

Originally posted by Arkans
Families >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than a fucking goose.

- Arkans

I understand that but i believe the point of the other post was to show that there's some exceptions and it's not always a clear cut issue of when it's acceptable to restrain someone else's child. That's why I said I'll agree with the analogy. It's just another way to look at the situation.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Arkans
Kicking a goose is a lot different than having a gun pointed at my family. You can't even compare the two.I can because I consider both unacceptable and morally requiring intervention. The disagreement is not over if children should be restrained by strangers, but when.

[GSLeloo]

She said several times, she never grabbed the CHILD, she grabbed a piece of his fabric. She didn't throw him to the ground so it does seem a bit odd for you to flip out over her simply removing him from killing the goose.

And actually I believe that they found that most serial killers first started their actions on animals.. so it's not that far fetched.

[Showal]

I think it's also fair to say that a good amount of young boys can be cruel to animals ... but not a good amount of young boys become serial killers. The trait is that serial killers usually start with animals, not that young kids being cruel to animals are likely to become serial killers. I'd say using the analogy that way is pretty far fetched.

Arkans already explained that he considers her grabbing his shirt to still be physical restraint and that's why he's reacting the way he is. I'm sure you're looking at it like me, that it's a reasonable action to prevent the animal from being hurt. Arkans doesnt see it that way.

I'm going to light a child's clothing on fire and claim it was just his clothing. Then we'll all be okay.

- Arkans

[CrystalTears]

You have a cow because someone compared guns to geese, yet you're going to pull lighting a shirt on fire the same thing as tugging on it? You just like to cause havoc around here, don't ya? :P

Just being as ridiculous as some other people and considering I covered the shirt comment already a few times :P

- Arkans

[Killer Kitten]

The goose incident:

I was doing my lunchtime power walk around the lake in the park. There is a paved path around the lake, in some places right on the shore and in other places a good distance from the shore.

In this particular stretch of path, the paved walkway curves away from the shore of the lake. On the lawn between the path and the shore there is a small playground , a grassy area, then a couple of trees.

There were a bunch of parent types and children at the playground, doing playground things. The kids were dangling on the equipment and screaming a lot, the adults were gazing into space and looking bored.

I walked past the playground and was on the path beside the grassy area when I saw the kid and the goose next to the trees. I saw the kid kick the goose, then draw back his foot and land another kick. As he drew back again I left the path, yanking my headphones off and yelled once for the kid to stop it. The goose was fluttering on the ground, obviously alive but not fleeing.

As I reached the kid and goose, I saw that the goose was tangled in fishing line (not an uncommon thing to happen to birds in this park) and unable to get away. The kid was about to launch another kick and the goose had blood on it already and didn't look good.

I couldn't have gotten between the kid and the goose to prevent that kick from landing and just grabbing and pulling an animal entangled in fishing line is a really stupid idea. If you pull hard enough you can dismember the animal if that line is snagged on something. The most expedient thing would have been to grab the kid by the shirt collar or the arm, but instead I grabbed the sleeve of his t shirt, which was large for him and flapping, and tugged him lightly towards me.

This caused him to use the kicking foot to catch his balance instead of nail the goose, which was the effect I was after. I let go of the sleeve as soon as I tugged, then I stepped around the kid, saw that the goose was trussed up but not attached to anything, and picked it up. I turned back to the kid, arms full of goose, and said something like what is wrong with you, you should never ever kick an animal. I didn't scream it, but I didn't say it in a whisper either. Then the parents charged up yelling at me for touching their kid.

I really was astounded, because when they initially arrived I was sure they were yelling at the kid for kicking the animal. Once I realized that they were actually mad at me, I tucked the goose under one arm, took my radio out of my fanny pack, and radioed my supervisor at the zoo to ask if they could send a cart over to the lake for me, I had an injured goose and a bit of a situation. (On the two other occasions I found fishing line geese at the lake I had just carried them back to the zoo. With these screaming idiots up my ass I decided to call for backup instead.) I checked the goose over while the parents yelled, avoiding more interaction with them. Luckily the zoo cart came quickly, my supervisor had come along for the ride and driving the cart was the biggest guy on staff. This was good because the parents, the dad in particular, were working themselves up into a real state of righteous rage and would probably have killed both me and the goose.

I guess the sight of the uniforms on the keeper and supervisor and the fact that they were driving an electric 'park cart' made the situation seem more 'official', because the parents led their kid away when the cart showed up. We took the goose back to the zoo, then after a phone call to the vets I drove it up to the Bronx for treatment.

If I were in the same situation all over again, I'd handle it in exactly the same manner. My primary concern was the welfare of the animal. As it was, the goose was badly lacerated by the fishing line and suffered a broken coracle, probably from one of the kicks.

There was no time to look for parents, call for a 'time out' or convene a seminar. My initial goal was to stop the kicking, then to assess my new patient and remove it to the zoo clinic for treatment. Tugging a sleeve did nothing to injure, frighten or otherwise traumatize the kid and I stand behind my actions 100%.

If the parents were so opposed to having somebody step in and stop their child from injuring the local wildlife they should have stopped the kid themselves. I'd like to think they were just embarassed that their kid acted that way and they missed it so they took it out on me. At least I really hope that was the case, I'd hate to think that they saw the child doing that and didn't think to put a stop to it.

[GSLeloo]

I think we should ask people who actually have kids how they'd feel in that situation. Anyone?

[Kyra]

I would be horrified that my child did that to begin with & be thanking KK for stopping the behavior while hoping the goose would be okay.

I wouldn't have a problem with an adult stopping my child from harming any living creature...only a seriously warped parent would be more concerned that their kid had the fabric of their shirt touched than that someone stopped them from killing something.

I have to hope KK is right in that they were embarassed & not that they were seriously upset over her touching the kids sleeve...that's messed up.

Once I was done believe me my child would be punished severely for a long time. There is NO excuse for that kind of behavior & I've never tolerated it from them at any age.

In the "don't touch my kid ever" mentality I guess I would have to watch some other kid whale the crap out of mine because I wouldn't dare touch their kid to stop the fight...NOT.

If you're of that opinion you ought to never let the little shits leave your sight & you won't have to worry about it happening (avoiding jail time in the process too).


K.

[Kainen]

I already answered. I dont think anyone should spaz on someone pulling their little monster away from hurting a bird. If I caught some kid doing that, I would do the same thing. Then if the parents came along and started shit with me.. I would take my frustration of not being able to whoop some sense into the kid out by whoopin some sense into the parents. Arkans doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. Unless you have kids or are around them a lot.. you don't really know either. And Arkans can say he feels this way all he wants.. shit changes when you have one of your own.. trust me. If the lady had smacked the kid I could see Arkans having something to say. Pulling the goose away might not have been a good idea since the bird was already injured. And the REAL point of this story is what kind of child does stuff like this to any animal???

[KymberlynX]

To put it in the perspective of the kids parents, MAYBE they didn't see their kid kicking the goose but only witnessed Kimm pulling their child away from it? I am by no means condoning their reaction to her good deed (given that they knew the kid was abusing the goose), but just putting another spin on it

Were it my kid, I would be horrified that Jordyn would be capable of doing something like that, and while I can't honestly tell you how I would really react at a stranger handling my child in any manner, under the circumstances I would be grateful that someone did intervene and handle the matter once I got her home. But, had I only seen Kimm pulling her away from the animal and not witnessed the abuse, I probably would have had the exact same reaction that kids parents had.

Edited to clarify something

[Edited on 5-11-2005 by KymberlynX]

Kainen, as with me, you are no longer to form an opinion on anything ever again, until you have extensive first hand experience. That is all.

- Arkans

[Kainen]

You seem to always have to state things in the extreme for the maximum effect. My point is simply that you are talking about something you know nothing about. I was the same way when I was younger and without my son. The thought of someone even LOOKIN at my kid wrong was something I wouldn't tolerate, now that I have a 14 yr old and have gone through all that (having a younger child.. not one who beat on animals).. I can say that pulling a child away from an animal isn't abuse or even cause to get upset. She didn't hit the kid, handcuff him or even put him on his ass.. she just pulled him away. Believe me.. no matter how you feel now, if you ever have your own kids, I am betting that your views change. Before you blow up at someone in that sort of situation you have to find out whats going on first anyways.

And the same exact thing applies to all other things you have no experience in. That is all I am saying.

- Arkans

[Kainen]

I try not to talk about stuff that I have no experiance with.. unless it's asking questions.

Not only talk, but have opinions about.

- Arkans