Student Loan Forgiveness

[ClydeR]

What about this student loan forgiveness? Good or bad?

Biden has announced that some student borrowers will have $10,000 or $20,000 of debt forgiven. Currently, loan debt payment is deferred because of the pandemic, and the interest rate during the deferral period is set to 0%. The deferment began while Trump was still President. Biden says that in addition to forgiving debt, he is also ending the deferrals.

Is there really any economic difference between a deferral at 0% interest and forgiveness of a loan amount? Is the below equation true or false for a student with $100,000 of student loan debt and an interest rate of 5%?


Deferral for 2 years = Forgiveness of $10,000 debt

[Tgo01]

STFU.

But:


Deferral for 2 years = Forgiveness of $10,000 debt

Especially STFU.

[Gelston]

The court challenges on this should be interesting. Even Pelosi said, in the past, that he didn't have the authority to do this.

We'll see how it shakes.

[Parkbandit]

I'll be expecting 10K to be taken off my taxes for each kid I put through college.

Thanks.

[Gelston]

I'll be expecting 10K to be taken off my taxes for each kid I put through college.

Thanks.

Up to 20k if they used a pell grant.

[Parkbandit]

Also, this just in: Colleges across the country magically increase their prices, given the new "free" money!

[Parkbandit]

Up to 20k if they used a pell grant.

Sweet.. when can I expect that $40K check to show up here?

[Gelston]

Yeah, the root of the problem is the costs of college. It shouldn't cost 40 grand to get a Bachelor's degree.

I also still hold the belief that all Community Colleges should be free as an extension of High School.

[Tgo01]

The court challenges on this should be interesting.

I wonder who is going to challenge it though?

Even Pelosi is now cheering Biden's illegal move, so the Democrats won't battle for their right to control the purse strings.

It would fall on Republicans or private citizens, the former of which might not want to take away 10-20k from voters a few months before the elections, and not sure private citizens have standing to sue, although they should.

[Gelston]

I wonder who is going to challenge it though?

Even Pelosi is now cheering Biden's illegal move, so the Democrats won't battle for their right to control the purse strings.

It would fall on Republicans or private citizens, the former of which might not want to take away 10-20k from voters a few months before the elections, and not sure private citizens have standing to sue, although they should.

Well yeah, nearly half of the Government is Republicans so I don't see how that is a question.

There are already plenty of Republicans railing against it.

[Tgo01]

Yeah, the root of the problem is the costs of college. It shouldn't cost 40 grand to get a Bachelor's degree.

It shouldn't, but with the government doling out tens of thousands of dollars per student, why wouldn't they charge 40k?

What the government SHOULD do is allow students to sue colleges for false or misleading information. Colleges tell students all the time "Get this degree! 98.7% of people who graduate here with this degree are earning 100k dollars within 3 years!" then 10 years later the student can't find a job using their degree, much less making what the college said they would be making. Students should be able to sue the schools to get their tuition back in those situations, instead of the government just forgiving the student debt.

But since colleges are a breeding ground for turning otherwise normal people into raging far left voters, it's highly unlikely this would get the support required to make it into law, so now we're stuck with one person just deciding on a whim to give people 10-20k dollars of tax payer dollars and the colleges will continue to turn people into mindless leftist drones while making bank in the process.

[Seran]

What about this student loan forgiveness? Good or bad?

Biden has announced that some student borrowers will have $10,000 or $20,000 of debt forgiven. Currently, loan debt payment is deferred because of the pandemic, and the interest rate during the deferral period is set to 0%. The deferment began while Trump was still President. Biden says that in addition to forgiving debt, he is also ending the deferrals.

Is there really any economic difference between a deferral at 0% interest and forgiveness of a loan amount? Is the below equation true or false for a student with $100,000 of student loan debt and an interest rate of 5%?


Deferral for 2 years = Forgiveness of $10,000 debt

I think it's great, and not a new precedent in the slightest of you consider the IRS has been waiving debt and hundreds of billions in PPP loans have also been fully forgiven. Not entirely why there's so many sandy crotches on the GOP side of the aisle, maybe they're just upset its not more corporate welfare.

[Tgo01]

There are already plenty of Republicans railing against it.

Railing against it and actually going to court with the purpose of "taking away" 10k-20k dollars from millions of voters is quite different.

[Parkbandit]

I think it's great, and not a new precedent in the slightest of you consider the IRS has been waiving debt and hundreds of billions in PPP loans have also been fully forgiven. Not entirely why there's so many sandy crotches on the GOP side of the aisle, maybe they're just upset its not more corporate welfare.

I got a PPP loan forgiven.

Do you know what that money that I received from the government went towards?

[Tgo01]

I think it's great, and not a new precedent in the slightest of you consider the IRS has been waiving debt and hundreds of billions in PPP loans have also been fully forgiven. Not entirely why there's so many sandy crotches on the GOP side of the aisle, maybe they're just upset its not more corporate welfare.

Congress did that. The IRS doesn't have the authority to just decide to "waive debt" or forgive billions of dollars in loans.

If Congress wants to do it then let Congress do it. Why are you leftists suddenly okay with fascism where the president usurps the power of Congress? Oh...right...because a Democrat is doing it.

Remember how you leftist pieces of shit cried and moaned and called Trump a racist because he wanted to divert 5 billion dollars (meaning the money was already earmarked to be spent) to secure our borders? But suddenly you're okay with upwards of 400 billion dollars of loans being forgiven (which means it was NOT earmarked to being spent) and the US taxpayers have to foot the bill.

[Gelston]

I think it's great, and not a new precedent in the slightest of you consider the IRS has been waiving debt and hundreds of billions in PPP loans have also been fully forgiven. Not entirely why there's so many sandy crotches on the GOP side of the aisle, maybe they're just upset its not more corporate welfare.

PPP loans were created with the idea that they could be forgiven and also due to a Government mandated shut down.

[Seran]

I got a PPP loan forgiven.

Do you know what that money that I received from the government went towards?

Nope, but those who benefited from PPP loans need to be a little bit less hypocritical about debt forgiveness.

[Suppressed Poet]

I think it's great, and not a new precedent in the slightest of you consider the IRS has been waiving debt and hundreds of billions in PPP loans have also been fully forgiven. Not entirely why there's so many sandy crotches on the GOP side of the aisle, maybe they're just upset its not more corporate welfare.

Corporate welfare? Really bro? That money helped workers / employees keep their job during a government mandated shut down. There was a lot of fraud in PPP and it could have been executed better, but that’s another story. If you think a bunch of greedy capitalists just pocketed that money, you are severely misinformed. Student loan forgiveness and PPP are not comparable.

[Seran]

PPP loans were created with the idea that they could be forgiven and also due to a Government mandated shut down.

Shut down for decided at the state level, businesses exist knowing there is risk. Covid-19 is no different than any other downturn in the market, save for the amount of reduction in household spending for a brief period of time. The government shouldn't be in the business of bailing out private business.

Governments however have done very little to address college and university costs which are the highest on average in the world. Federal student loan debt forgiveness goes a long way to address that.

[Gelston]

Shut down for decided at the state level

Shut down all the same, stop trying to qualify it. You know it is 100% different from Student Loans.

[Suppressed Poet]

Nope, but those who benefited from PPP loans need to be a little bit less hypocritical about debt forgiveness.

Employees of small businesses were the main beneficiaries. Without PPP, small and medium sized businesses would have been forced to layoff employees when the government mandated Covid lockdowns.

Your stupidity never ceases to amaze me.

[Suppressed Poet]

Governments however have done very little to address college and university costs which are the highest on average in the world. Federal student loan debt forgiveness goes a long way to address that.

Student loan debt forgiveness does absolutely nothing to address the high college and university costs. Universities are still able to charge whatever they want and are in ultra-high demand. They are very likely to charge even more now with student loan forgiveness.

[ClydeR]

Do you know what that money that I received from the government went towards?


Yes! I can imagine exactly what you spent it on. I won't post it, because I don't want to embarrass anybody.

[Methais]

Covid-19 is no different than any other downturn in the market

Look at what a fucking idiot you are. Again.


The government shouldn't be in the business of bailing out private business.

The government shouldn't be in the business of forcing private businesses to shut down either but I don't hear you complaining about that.

[time4fun]

Student loan debt forgiveness does absolutely nothing to address the high college and university costs. Universities are still able to charge whatever they want and are in ultra-high demand. They are very likely to charge even more now with student loan forgiveness.

Largely agreed here. The core problem here is actually the switch to loans as our primary form of government aid for higher education. That's why schools can more or less charge whatever they want- the government makes it possible for students and their parents to borrow really as much as a school wants to charge. Coupled with the fact that over the last few decades states have been absolutely gutting their secondary education funding, and you've got our insane higher education debt problem that European countries just don't generally have.

It does solve another big problem though- it puts more money in the pockets of the massive number of people living with student loan debt. And that makes it more likely that money goes to local businesses, which is good for the overall economy.

[Tgo01]

Largely agreed here. The core problem here is actually the switch to loans as our primary form of government aid for higher education. That's why schools can more or less charge whatever they want- the government makes it possible for students and their parents to borrow really as much as a school wants to charge. Coupled with the fact that over the last few decades states have been absolutely gutting their secondary education funding, and you've got our insane higher education debt problem that European countries just don't generally have.

time4fun making sense for once, other than blaming states for why colleges have increased tuition so much over the past few decades.


And that makes it more likely that money goes to local businesses, which is good for the overall economy.

And right back to being an idiot.

Literally doling out tens of thousands of dollars to millions of people isn't necessarily good for the economy. In fact it's largely bad for the economy because it leads to inflation, which raises the price of everything for everyone, people who received 10k-20k and people who didn't receive such a large gift paid for by taxpayers.

Also I'll be honest, I haven't looked into HOW this loan forgiveness works out, but I imagine how it works is if Sarah owes 100k in student loans, she now owes 90k in student loans, which means she doesn't really have more money to spend now (well maybe her monthly payments might go down a few bucks), so it's not likely to really help the economy anytime soon, but it sure as hell puts 10-20k into the pockets of people who on average earn much more money than people who don't go to college, while expecting those who didn't go to college to foot the bill. So there is that.

[Suppressed Poet]

Largely agreed here. The core problem here is actually the switch to loans as our primary form of government aid for higher education. That's why schools can more or less charge whatever they want- the government makes it possible for students and their parents to borrow really as much as a school wants to charge. Coupled with the fact that over the last few decades states have been absolutely gutting their secondary education funding, and you've got our insane higher education debt problem that European countries just don't generally have.

It does solve another big problem though- it puts more money in the pockets of the massive number of people living with student loan debt. And that makes it more likely that money goes to local businesses, which is good for the overall economy.

Agree on your first paragraph.

Second one though…while you are technically correct, that does not solve any problems. We already have high inflation and this will make things worse at the expense of taxpayers. I have no sympathy for someone who went $80k in debt for a liberal arts degree that has no value on the job market (example), and it shouldn’t be government’s responsibility to bail them out of their debit. We’re rewarding and encouraging individuals to make poor financial decisions.

[time4fun]

Agree on your first paragraph.

Second one though…while you are technically correct, that does not solve any problems. We already have high inflation and this will make things worse at the expense of taxpayers. I have no sympathy for someone who went $80k in debt for a liberal arts degree that has no value on the job market (example), and it shouldn’t be government’s responsibility to bail them out of their debit. We’re rewarding and encouraging individuals to make poor financial decisions.

Moody's actually came out with an analysis of this one. It's behind a pay wall, so relying on secondary sources here (https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/student-loan-forgiveness-joe-biden/), but the long and short is that the end of the student loan moratorium will lower inflation a bit, and the actual student loan forgiveness will increase it a bit. So basically it's a wash. They estimate GDP down by .05%, unemployment will go down .02%, and inflation will go down by .03%.

As far as who does or doesn't deserve student loan forgiveness- that's actually irrelevant. When we're talking about issues of national policy, it's about what's best for the nation. People pouring their money into student loan payments instead of buying houses, saving, or spending it on local businesses is bad for our nation. As a nation, it makes us more vulnerable to economic downturn. The more people you have living paycheck to paycheck, the more devastating economic disruptions are. Also, redistributing that money to go to local businesses does a lot more to help grow the economy than student loan payments do.

Student loan forgiveness is about solving for macroeconomic problems. And it's the government's job to deal with macroeconomic problems. So in this case, yeah it actually is the government's job to bail them out. Because that helps strengthen our economy overall.


Also I know this is a total tangent and not related to the point, but the vast majority of jobs couldn't care less what your BA degree was in when you're coming out of college. And after that point, literally no one cares what the degree was in. They care about your ability to read and write and to communicate effectively with people around you. IMO picking a degree you care about and will throw yourself into makes you more likely to pick up those skills.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Can I waive the debt on my house?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

How about my car?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

How about any credit cards I have?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Can I waive the debt on taxes to the IRS?

[Gelston]

It does solve another big problem though- it puts more money in the pockets of the massive number of people living with student loan debt. And that makes it more likely that money goes to local businesses, which is good for the overall economy.

For the majority of borrowers, 10k-20k isn't going to end their student loans. That cash is still going to be going to their loans.

[Suppressed Poet]

Moody's actually came out with an analysis of this one. It's behind a pay wall, so relying on secondary sources here (https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/student-loan-forgiveness-joe-biden/), but the long and short is that the end of the student loan moratorium will lower inflation a bit, and the actual student loan forgiveness will increase it a bit. So basically it's a wash. They estimate GDP down by .05%, unemployment will go down .02%, and inflation will go down by .03%.

As far as who does or doesn't deserve student loan forgiveness- that's actually irrelevant. When we're talking about issues of national policy, it's about what's best for the nation. People pouring their money into student loan payments instead of buying houses, saving, or spending it on local businesses is bad for our nation. As a nation, it makes us more vulnerable to economic downturn. The more people you have living paycheck to paycheck, the more devastating economic disruptions are. Also, redistributing that money to go to local businesses does a lot more to help grow the economy than student loan payments do.

Student loan forgiveness is about solving for macroeconomic problems. And it's the government's job to deal with macroeconomic problems. So in this case, yeah it actually is the government's job to bail them out. Because that helps strengthen our economy overall.


Also I know this is a total tangent and not related to the point, but the vast majority of jobs couldn't care less what your BA degree was in when you're coming out of college. And after that point, literally no one cares what the degree was in. They care about your ability to read and write and to communicate effectively with people around you. IMO picking a degree you care about and will throw yourself into makes you more likely to pick up those skills.

Are we just going to pretend this has an actual positive impact to the economy like you are suggesting, and that it’s not a cheap political trick in an attempt to score points with young voters ahead of the mid-terms? It’s no secret that Democrats have been on a downward trend in the polls with that age demographic.

The irony of it all…. Progressives are upset that it’s not enough. Everyone else thinks it’s a bad idea & really bad timing with the current state of our economy. Largely speaking nobody is happy with this action and I suspect it’s going to backfire badly.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

When can I sign up for the class action lawsuit to get my tuition back that I paid in full?

[Gelston]

When can I sign up for the class action lawsuit to get my tuition back that I paid in full?

Who are you going to sue?

[Parkbandit]

Nope, but those who benefited from PPP loans need to be a little bit less hypocritical about debt forgiveness.

Funny part is: I didn't benefit from the PPP loan at all.

My employees did. They got paid while staying at home at the Government's request.

[Parkbandit]

Yes! I can imagine exactly what you spent it on. I won't post it, because I don't want to embarrass anybody.

So the little coward doesn't know shit.

I'm shocked.

[time4fun]

For the majority of borrowers, 10k-20k isn't going to end their student loans. That cash is still going to be going to their loans.

No, but reducing the principle reduces the payments. The average borrower comes out of college with ~$29k in student loan debt (https://www.forbes.com/advisor/student-loans/average-student-loan-statistics/). I think it's fair to say that cancelling $10k-20k of that is significant relief. Even if it were $100k, taking $20k off of the principle is no small thing.

And that's not counting the 5% salary cap. THAT alone is going to be huge for a lot of people.

[Tgo01]

but the long and short is that the end of the student loan moratorium will lower inflation a bit, and the actual student loan forgiveness will increase it a bit. So basically it's a wash.

Get out of here.

Creating 400 billion dollars out of thin air won't have a net increase on inflation?

Even assuming that were true, it's only a "wash" BECAUSE the moratorium is STILL in place for some unknown reason, so according to your own source inflation would GO DOWN if it wasn't for Biden's illegal giveaway.

This is yet more Democrat fuckery.

"We made inflation worse by having this student loan moratorium in place 1.5 years longer than it needed to be, so if we end that moratorium and forgive student loans the net result would be 0% increase to inflation! Now thank us!"

[time4fun]

Are we just going to pretend this has an actual positive impact to the economy like you are suggesting, and that it’s not a cheap political trick in an attempt to score points with young voters ahead of the mid-terms? It’s no secret that Democrats have been on a downward trend in the polls with that age demographic.

The irony of it all…. Progressives are upset that it’s not enough. Everyone else thinks it’s a bad idea & really bad timing with the current state of our economy. Largely speaking nobody is happy with this action and I suspect it’s going to backfire badly.

Why can't it be both?

Obviously the timing of this announcement isn't random. And it definitely helps a population that tends to skew more democratic. It's also true that student loan repayment has to start back up again, and if we don't mitigate the burden that puts on already struggling families, it's going to be a problem. And the loan repayment policy seems very much written with that in mind given the population it targets.

Something can both be politically expedient and also good policy.


Two other points here:

1) I just gave you evidence from a reputable, non-partisan source that clearly states this isn't bad for the economy. So continuing to say this is bad timing for our economy feels really disingenuous. If the talking point doesn't match the data, then it should be dropped. Just because political pundits criticize something doesn't make their critique true.

2) Personally I would find it easier to take Republican policy critiques seriously if Republicans bothered offering up any alternative solutions. The solution to a $1.6t student loan debt burden that we know is slowing our economy and making us more economically vulnerable on the whole *cannot* be to just do nothing. But these days that's the only "solution" we get from Republicans on a whole host of really serious issues.

It often feels like they just wait around for Democrats to try to solve a problem and then launch a giant fearmongering campaign about how it's going to destroy our entire nation with zero evidence and absolutely no alternative solution. That's not governance. That's cynical political BS.

[Tgo01]

1) I just gave you evidence from a reputable, non-partisan source that clearly states this isn't bad for the economy.

Wrong. Your "source" said it wasn't "bad" for the economy because at the same time the student debt forgiveness is going into effect Biden is (finally) ending the moratorium on student loan payments. So if Biden just finally ended the moratorium on student loan payments then this would be a boon for the economy and inflation.

Again this is from a source YOU linked.

Congratulations. You played yourself. Again.

[joeyb]

all student debt should be cancelled. 10k is bullshit, but it's something.

also lol at the "this will lead to increased inflation".

[joeyb]

Funny part is: I didn't benefit from the PPP loan at all.

My employees did. They got paid while staying at home at the Government's request.

that's nice

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/01/business/paycheck-protection-program-costs.htm

[Gelston]

No, but reducing the principle reduces the payments. The average borrower comes out of college with ~$29k in student loan debt (https://www.forbes.com/advisor/student-loans/average-student-loan-statistics/). I think it's fair to say that cancelling $10k-20k of that is significant relief. Even if it were $100k, taking $20k off of the principle is no small thing.

And that's not counting the 5% salary cap. THAT alone is going to be huge for a lot of people.

Yes, and if they are smart, they are going to continue making the exact same payments to pay it off faster. It isn't going to be some massive boon to the economy. It is going to make it worse, more likely, because you damn well know college rates are going to go up and new kids will expect to have their shit forgiven too.

[Seran]

Shut down all the same, stop trying to qualify it. You know it is 100% different from Student Loans.

The distinction matters because you implied the federal government caused the shutdowns and thus the PPP was remuneration for the losses caused by the Feds. It wasn't, it shouldn't ever be considered anything but corporate welfare.

[SHAFT]

I'll be expecting 10K to be taken off my taxes for each kid I put through college.

Thanks.

oh fuck you have kids? no way in hell they turned out to be decent human beings.

[Gelston]

The distinction matters because you implied the federal government caused the shutdowns and thus the PPP was remuneration for the losses caused by the Feds. It wasn't, it shouldn't ever be considered anything but corporate welfare.

I didn't imply shit. I said the Government shut down businesses. State Government is still Government. If you wanted to read that as anything else, it is on you.

[Suppressed Poet]

Why can't it be both?

Obviously the timing of this announcement isn't random. And it definitely helps a population that tends to skew more democratic. It's also true that student loan repayment has to start back up again, and if we don't mitigate the burden that puts on already struggling families, it's going to be a problem. And the loan repayment policy seems very much written with that in mind given the population it targets.

Something can both be politically expedient and also good policy.


Two other points here:

1) I just gave you evidence from a reputable, non-partisan source that clearly states this isn't bad for the economy. So continuing to say this is bad timing for our economy feels really disingenuous. If the talking point doesn't match the data, then it should be dropped. Just because political pundits criticize something doesn't make their critique true.

2) Personally I would find it easier to take Republican policy critiques seriously if Republicans bothered offering up any alternative solutions. The solution to a $1.6t student loan debt burden that we know is slowing our economy and making us more economically vulnerable on the whole *cannot* be to just do nothing. But these days that's the only "solution" we get from Republicans on a whole host of really serious issues.

It often feels like they just wait around for Democrats to try to solve a problem and then launch a giant fearmongering campaign about how it's going to destroy our entire nation with zero evidence and absolutely no alternative solution. That's not governance. That's cynical political BS.

A better solution in my eyes would be to do something that addresses the problem with public higher education being too costly. Let’s do something that brings back trade and vocational schools as an alternative which can put Americans into high-demand well paying jobs. Perhaps we could subsidize eligible universities that measure well on post graduate job placement, while maybe even regulating fees that they charge. We could maybe reform government backing on student loans as well. Those are just a few rough ideas, but point is let’s come to a solution that actually addresses the problem (which you and I previously agreed on).

From sources I am reading, I don’t think this will make a huge economic impact either way although it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand that this isn’t helping inflation concerns. What it does do though is contribute to increasing our deficit which is already wildly out of control. The burden of this is on taxpayers.

[Seran]

Employees of small businesses were the main beneficiaries. Without PPP, small and medium sized businesses would have been forced to layoff employees when the government mandated Covid lockdowns.

Your stupidity never ceases to amaze me.

And? Come to find out, the majority of Americans benefited more from unemployment benefits than they did the meager wages paid by their employers, which resulted in Americans waking up to just how fucked over they've been by being held hostage by wages barely equaling the cost of living.

Jared Kushner, JZ, countless political action committees, evangelical groups, etc.. So much money wound up in the hands of scammers, the ultra wealthy and influential that the Mom and Pop organizations your claim were the main beneficiaries were cut off when the funds were exhausted by Big Business.

[Seran]

PPP loans were created with the idea that they could be forgiven and also due to a Government mandated shut down.

You're clearly saying they were owed the money due to being shutdown by "the Government." Businesses weren't owed shit, if they'd been given repayment terms similar to student loans without forgiveness, the same forbearance and deferment terms of student loans, then maybe PPP would have been legit. But it wasn't.

Sometimes businesses fail. Sometimes their employees have to find new jobs and get unemployment while they're looking. Sometimes they realize the people who take 90% of corporate profits are the same people making sure their employees can never afford to look for other work.

[Gelston]

You're clearly saying they were owed the money due to being shutdown by "the Government." Businesses weren't owed shit, if they'd been given repayment terms similar to student loans without forgiveness, the same forbearance and deferment terms of student loans, then maybe PPP would have been legit. But it wasn't.

Sometimes businesses fail. Sometimes their employees have to find new jobs and get unemployment while they're looking. Sometimes they realize the people who take 90% of corporate profits are the same people making sure their employees can never afford to look for other work.

I am clearly stating the Government. State Governments are part of the Government. Stop being dense. If you were unclear on what I was saying, you are fucking clear now.

And I never said they were "owed" anything. I said it was completely different circumstances compared to student loan debt. It is rather telling that you are calling the COVID 19 pandemic a simple economic downturn though.

[beldannon5]

i have loans with 2 places, part of my stuff went to a new place while the rest is with navient. For some reason navient isn't deferred. I wonder where the money will come off.

[Parkbandit]

all student debt should be cancelled. 10k is bullshit, but it's something.

also lol at the "this will lead to increased inflation".

Why do you care about student loans?

That's for people who went to college.. not for people who couldn't pass the 4th grade and were just left behind.

[Parkbandit]

oh fuck you have kids? no way in hell they turned out to be decent human beings.

Thank god you were court mandated to be castrated.. so your retard genes could be finally removed from the gene pool.

Not that you needed to be castrated anyway.. not like you could land a woman.. or have any desire to.

[Parkbandit]

You're clearly saying they were owed the money due to being shutdown by "the Government." Businesses weren't owed shit, if they'd been given repayment terms similar to student loans without forgiveness, the same forbearance and deferment terms of student loans, then maybe PPP would have been legit. But it wasn't.

I know you want to make an intelligent point.. you simply lack the ability. Case in point: Comparing PPP loans to college loans.

Much like you.. it doesn't work.

Business owners were told to close down their business. Without those loans, we wouldn't just pay our employees to sit at home.


Sometimes businesses fail. Sometimes their employees have to find new jobs and get unemployment while they're looking. Sometimes they realize the people who take 90% of corporate profits are the same people making sure their employees can never afford to look for other work.

You should stop talking about things you know nothing about.

[Suppressed Poet]

And? Come to find out, the majority of Americans benefited more from unemployment benefits than they did the meager wages paid by their employers, which resulted in Americans waking up to just how fucked over they've been by being held hostage by wages barely equaling the cost of living.

Jared Kushner, JZ, countless political action committees, evangelical groups, etc.. So much money wound up in the hands of scammers, the ultra wealthy and influential that the Mom and Pop organizations your claim were the main beneficiaries were cut off when the funds were exhausted by Big Business.

You have made it abundantly clear in yours posts that you want our government to pay for your standard of living while you do absolutely nothing to contribute to society. Unfortunately for you that is a fantasy & you are just a bum.

If you ever got everything you wanted politically, the end result would be government placing you in a gulag camp to be worked to death immediately after you served your purpose of putting overlords in a position of absolute power.

[Parkbandit]

You have made it abundantly clear in yours posts that you want our government to pay for your standard of living while you do absolutely nothing to contribute to society. Unfortunately for you that is a fantasy & you are just a bum.


Whoa whoa whoa... Seran has made a "living" from milking the government for every dime he can.

And I've always stated: We have a responsibility to the people who are physically or in Seran's case: mentally unable to provide for themselves.

[Seran]

I am clearly stating the Government. State Governments are part of the Government. Stop being dense. If you were unclear on what I was saying, you are fucking clear now.

And I never said they were "owed" anything. I said it was completely different circumstances compared to student loan debt. It is rather telling that you are calling the COVID 19 pandemic a simple economic downturn though.

PPP loans were created ... and also due to Government mandated shutdown.

Your right, let's just completely ignore you've blamed government mandated shutdowns for the reason why forgivable PPP loans were created. You clearly posted that, but sure you retract it.

You're right, businesses weren't owed PPP money, because some state governments ordered restrictive social distancing and PPE requirements, we agree there.

But they /did/ incur debt as a result of loans given to them from taxpayer funds. Just as students who take out federal loans incur debt from borrowing taxpayer funds. That you think forgiving one, is completely different than the other because they're different circumstances is mystifying.

Covid-19 occured, businesses suffered and would have to lay off employees. The government offered forgivable loans (welfare) that kept them running a bit longer. Enriching the business, it's owners and producing lay workers.

Modern employment requires degrees for higher paying jobs, young people can't afford college and as a result, businesses suffer for a lack of qualified candidates. The government offered loans to pay for college degrees with the caveat they would be repaid following graduation and entry into the workforce. The government recognized crushing student loan debt was prohibitive of economic participation, thus decided to forgive a small portion owed by those making less than 125k. Businesses, their owners, and producing lay workers benefit from money able to be spent on goods and services.

See, they're not so different after all.

[Candor]

As someone who took out federal government student loans as a student and then after graduation...brace yourself liberals...paid them back faithfully over several years...I find this loan forgiveness to be something of an insult.

Or perhaps a payment for votes...

[Suppressed Poet]

And I've always stated: We have a responsibility to the people who are physically or in Seran's case: mentally unable to provide for themselves.

I agree. As a wealthy & civilized nation we should have a floor minimum to make certain no American citizen starves to death, access to very basic but shitty healthcare, etc. That responsibility does not include, however, making their lives comfortable. If you want something better than a dismal life of poverty, you have to work for it. That’s the American way.

Edit: The fantasy part I was trying to convey earlier is to expect a comfortable good lifestyle with everyone in a middle-class income or better provided by the government. Sure politicians will promise that, but take a look at history of what happens when government has complete control over all aspects of the economy. It generally doesn’t work out well for bums…

[Shaps]

Let's do some simple math.. you tell me where all the $ goes...

https://policyadvice.net/insurance/insights/homelessness-statistics/

"2. The number of homeless in the US is estimated at 552,830."

https://my.neighbor.org/what-is-the-cost-of-homelessness/

"The National Alliance to End Homelessness calculated that, in 2021, the U.S. federal government enacted over $51 billion in funding for selected homelessness and housing programs. This, of course, does not include city, county, or private dollars invested in homelessness and affordable housing as well."

For math's sake I'll round up to 600,000 homeless... so the total amount spent on homelessness for roughly 600,000 homeless is around 51 billion dollars from government funding, charities, state programs, etc.

That equals roughly 85,000 dollars per homeless person.

So you tell me... where is that 85,000 dollars per person going? I know for a fact, you can live on much less than that per year.

So how much more should the taxpayer give? What is the floor on supporting others?

This doesn't even include the 50% of people that don't pay into State or Federal taxes at all due to the tax code. Nor does it include the fact that billions are offered in grant $ for various endeavors. Nor does it include the proposed loan forgiveness... which is and of itself illegal... considering the Congress is supposed to handle fiscal matters... not the King from on high.

[SHAFT]

Thank god you were court mandated to be castrated.. so your retard genes could be finally removed from the gene pool.

Not that you needed to be castrated anyway.. not like you could land a woman.. or have any desire to.

I must've struck a nerve! do your kids know you're a slimeball piece of shit who trolls people on the internet all day? and you've been doing it for DECADES?

I mean we've had some losers on the PC but PB is the fucking king. Legend shit

$1000 to anyone who finds PB's kids and shows them the receipts of how much a loser their father is. record it so it can live forever

[Tgo01]

$1000 to anyone who finds PB's kids and shows them the receipts of how much a loser their father is. record it so it can live forever

Why do so many leftists on the PC have a fascination with PB's children?

What a bunch of sickos.

[Bhaalizmo]

Why does PB have such a fascination with harassing anyone who isn't right wing on the PC?

What a slack jawed idiot he is.

Why indeed.

[SHAFT]

Why do so many leftists on the PC have a fascination with PB's children?

What a bunch of sickos.

What was I thinking… of course his kids know how much of a scumbag loser he is. They had to grow up with him.

They never had a chance, tbh.

[Suppressed Poet]

Why do so many leftists on the PC have a fascination with PB's children?

What a bunch of sickos.

This is why:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2FnsUFD_hU

[joeyb]

Why do you care about student loans?

That's for people who went to college.. not for people who couldn't pass the 4th grade and were just left behind.

imagine caring about things that will make the lives of other people better, but not yours? holy shit what a concept!

sarcasm aside, you're an old idiot and I believe in actual progress. education should be free, as well as other basic human needs.

my college loans have been paid off for a long while, but, i'm not a piece of shit and don't think i'm owed anything because other people are getting a break(if you want to even call it that).

[joeyb]

I must've struck a nerve! do your kids know you're a slimeball piece of shit who trolls people on the internet all day? and you've been doing it for DECADES?

I mean we've had some losers on the PC but PB is the fucking king. Legend shit

$1000 to anyone who finds PB's kids and shows them the receipts of how much a loser their father is. record it so it can live forever

lol

[joeyb]

I agree. As a wealthy & civilized nation we should have a floor minimum to make certain no American citizen starves to death, access to very basic but shitty healthcare, etc. That responsibility does not include, however, making their lives comfortable. If you want something better than a dismal life of poverty, you have to work for it. That’s the American way.

Edit: The fantasy part I was trying to convey earlier is to expect a comfortable good lifestyle with everyone in a middle-class income or better provided by the government. Sure politicians will promise that, but take a look at history of what happens when government has complete control over all aspects of the economy. It generally doesn’t work out well for bums…

just as Jesus would say.

sorry bums, start working, no handouts here!

[joeyb]

Why do so many leftists on the PC have a fascination with PB's children?

What a bunch of sickos.

why do people on an online message board think about the children of an incredibly old loser who has been trolling said online message board for decades and spews dumb hateful shit all of the time, and how those children turned out? man, only a sick mind would think of such a thing.

lol at this stupid fucking pearl clutching.

[Suppressed Poet]

just as Jesus would say.

sorry bums, start working, no handouts here!

Yep. He also said Rome will provide everything you need.

[joeyb]

As someone who took out federal government student loans as a student and then after graduation...brace yourself liberals...paid them back faithfully over several years...I find this loan forgiveness to be something of an insult.

Or perhaps a payment for votes...

suck it up snowflake. people are getting things you didn't get, go cry about it

[joeyb]

Yep. He also said Rome will provide everything you need.

do you think jesus would be for student loan forgiveness?

[Suppressed Poet]

do you think jesus would be for student loan forgiveness?

I don’t think Jesus would give a flying fuck about student loan forgiveness as that is a political issue. What do you think?

[Tgo01]

lol at this stupid fucking pearl clutching.

The last far leftist who had a fascination about PB's children imagined one of them as a stripper when she was underage, then stalked her on social media for 10 years to see if she did indeed become a stripper as an adult.

But, you know, you can just brush aside the disgusting tactics of your fellow leftist scum because it's easier than holding said scum accountable.

[Tgo01]

do you think jesus would be for student loan forgiveness?

It's time for everyone's least favorite game: "Democrats ask: What would Jesus do?!"

[joeyb]

I don’t think Jesus would give a flying fuck about student loan forgiveness as that is a political issue. What do you think?

lol jesus doesn't care about helping people in need, that's a political issue

[joeyb]

The last far leftist who had a fascination about PB's children imagined one of them as a stripper when she was underage, then stalked her on social media for 10 years to see if she did indeed become a stripper as an adult.

But, you know, you can just brush aside the disgusting tactics of your fellow leftist scum because it's easier than holding said scum accountable.

great.

unlike you, i don't automatically agree with everyone who holds the same political views as i do, or defend them for the same. if a person has the same politics as i do, but is a weirdo, i'll call them out as being a fucking weirdo. also "leftist" doesn't mean what you think it means.

you're also a moron and lol again at the pearl clutching.

[joeyb]

It's time for everyone's least favorite game: "Democrats ask: What would Jesus do?!"

dude, what is wrong with your brain? why do you think everyone who disagrees with you is automatically a democrat? is this part of your victim complex? holy shit

[Suppressed Poet]

lol jesus doesn't care about helping people in need, that's a political issue

Sounds like to me you are trying to morally justify stealing money from one part of the population in order to pay for another part of the population’s bad financial decisions.

[Tgo01]

dude, what is wrong with your brain? why do you think everyone who disagrees with you is automatically a democrat? is this part of your victim complex? holy shit

Oh right. Another conservative/independent/communist who just so happens to agree with Democrats on 99% of the issues.

I sometimes forget how bad you are at this, macguyver.

[joeyb]

Sounds like to me you are trying to morally justify stealing money from one part of the population in order to pay for another part of the population’s bad financial decisions.

i think it's more pointing out some hypocrisy, but whatever made up shit you want to say to rationalize you not wanting to help people in need is cool too

[joeyb]

Oh right. Another conservative/independent/communist who just so happens to agree with Democrats on 99% of the issues.

I sometimes forget how bad you are at this, macguyver.

99% of what i write on these boards is pure trolling and the other 1% i definitely don't agree with Seran or whoever you are referring to as the "Democrats", so you're pulling this out of your ass. feel free to go back and read my posts, they're really good.

you're just an idiot who's brain is hard wired into conservative media so you think the political spectrum is simply republicans and democrats - who are also the "left", but you have no idea what the actual "left" is.

[Suppressed Poet]

i think it's more pointing out some hypocrisy, but whatever made up shit you want to say to rationalize you not wanting to help people in need is cool too

Have you ever been to church? I’ll give you a little hint…when the collection basket gets passed around, the ushers don’t point a gun at the parishioners forcing them to dump money into it. Only government gets to do that.

[joeyb]

Have you ever been to church? I’ll give you a little hint…when the collection basket gets passed around, the ushers don’t point a gun at the parishioners forcing them to dump money into it. Only government gets to do that.

so you don't want to pay taxes because you don't want those taxes to be used to help people in need, is that what you're saying? ok cool, see you in church

[Seran]

Have you ever been to church? I’ll give you a little hint…when the collection basket gets passed around, the ushers don’t point a gun at the parishioners forcing them to dump money into it. Only government gets to do that.

The Mormon Church has a tithing enforcement team actually.

[Viekn]

Sounds like to me you are trying to morally justify stealing money from one part of the population in order to pay for another part of the population’s bad financial decisions.


Have you ever been to church? I’ll give you a little hint…when the collection basket gets passed around, the ushers don’t point a gun at the parishioners forcing them to dump money into it. Only government gets to do that.

Whether you're republican or democrat, these are invalid arguments. This is how America works. We agree to pay taxes and allow the government to spend it how they see fit. We can then vote people out of office if we don't like it. Do you feel this strongly when corporations make bad financial decisions and the government has to help bail them out? If you don't agree with this style of taxation and government, I guess you're not as true of an American as you hold yourself out to be.

[Suppressed Poet]

so you don't want to pay taxes because you don't want those taxes to be used to help people in need, is that what you're saying? ok cool, see you in church

No that is not what I am saying. I’m saying that you asking what Jesus thinks about student loan forgiveness is like asking if Jesus would enjoy playing Genstone IV. My answer to you is it’s a dumb question, just like you.

[Suppressed Poet]

Whether you're republican or democrat, these are invalid arguments. This is how America works. We agree to pay taxes and allow the government to spend it how they see fit. We can then vote people out of office if we don't like it. Do you feel this strongly when corporations make bad financial decisions and the government has to help bail them out? If you don't agree with this style of taxation and government, I guess you're not as true of an American as you hold yourself out to be.

American revolutionaries that shot Red Coats in the face over a 2 shilling 6 pence tax stamp may have disagreed with you.

You know when federal income tax started and why? Oh and it was only supposed to be a tax on the very rich.

[Suppressed Poet]

The Mormon Church has a tithing enforcement team actually.

I don’t know much about Mormons so I’ll take your word on that.

[joeyb]

No that is not what I am saying. I’m saying that you asking what Jesus thinks about student loan forgiveness is like asking if Jesus would enjoy playing Genstone IV. My answer to you is it’s a dumb question, just like you.

the concept of giving to people who are in need was not foreign to Jesus. do you even go to church bro?

[Suppressed Poet]

the concept of giving to people who are in need was not foreign to Jesus. do you even go to church bro?

Matthew 22:15-22

And what you are talking about is not giving. It’s wealth redistribution. Giving implies free will. There is an important distinction between the two.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

all student debt should be cancelled. 10k is bullshit, but it's something.

also lol at the "this will lead to increased inflation".

Why stop there. Cancel all debt.

[Neveragain]

the concept of giving to people who are in need was not foreign to Jesus. do you even go to church bro?

Obviously you don't or you wouldn't leave out the part of the sermon on the mount where the people ask Jesus to use his powers to take from the haves to feed the have nots. After that he basically told them how fucking stupid they were and left them behind.

[SHAFT]

Why stop there. Cancel all debt.

As a bitcoin owner please do

[Parkbandit]

PPP loans were created ... and also due to Government mandated shutdown.

Your right, let's just completely ignore you've blamed government mandated shutdowns for the reason why forgivable PPP loans were created. You clearly posted that, but sure you retract it.

You're right, businesses weren't owed PPP money, because some state governments ordered restrictive social distancing and PPE requirements, we agree there.

But they /did/ incur debt as a result of loans given to them from taxpayer funds. Just as students who take out federal loans incur debt from borrowing taxpayer funds. That you think forgiving one, is completely different than the other because they're different circumstances is mystifying.

Covid-19 occured, businesses suffered and would have to lay off employees. The government offered forgivable loans (welfare) that kept them running a bit longer. Enriching the business, it's owners and producing lay workers.

Modern employment requires degrees for higher paying jobs, young people can't afford college and as a result, businesses suffer for a lack of qualified candidates. The government offered loans to pay for college degrees with the caveat they would be repaid following graduation and entry into the workforce. The government recognized crushing student loan debt was prohibitive of economic participation, thus decided to forgive a small portion owed by those making less than 125k. Businesses, their owners, and producing lay workers benefit from money able to be spent on goods and services.

See, they're not so different after all.

If kids were forced to go to college by the government, you might have a point.

[Parkbandit]

I must've struck a nerve! do your kids know you're a slimeball piece of shit who trolls people on the internet all day? and you've been doing it for DECADES?

I mean we've had some losers on the PC but PB is the fucking king. Legend shit

$1000 to anyone who finds PB's kids and shows them the receipts of how much a loser their father is. record it so it can live forever

1) You don't have $1000
2) So glad your retard gene dies with you... miserably and alone.
3) You didn't strike anything.. you never offer a single bit of intelligent thought to any conversation.
4) You've been having a complete meltdown for over 6 years now.. maybe unplug from the Internet and go get a job loser.

[Parkbandit]

What was I thinking…

This is where you went wrong.



of course his kids know how much of a scumbag loser he is. They had to grow up with him.

They never had a chance, tbh.

The world is a better place knowing you didn't procreate. At least your fictional children won't be a drain on society and in your head, that will be a bigger success than you will ever amount to.

[Gelston]

See, they're not so different after all.

Except college isn't Government mandated, so they are completely different.

[joeyb]

1) You don't have $1000
2) So glad your retard gene dies with you... miserably and alone.
3) You didn't strike anything.. you never offer a single bit of intelligent thought to any conversation.
4) You've been having a complete meltdown for over 6 years now.. maybe unplug from the Internet and go get a job loser.


This is where you went wrong.




The world is a better place knowing you didn't procreate. At least your fictional children won't be a drain on society and in your head, that will be a bigger success than you will ever amount to.

fucking triggered! lol looks like a nerve was hit. you're rage posting like I dunked on you again, but it was SHAFT this time.

take a fucking breath and go have a drink or something. i know this message board is like 90% of what keeps you going in life, but you need to take it easy

[joeyb]

Why stop there. Cancel all debt.

i'm good with canceling most debt. good idea

[joeyb]

Matthew 22:15-22

And what you are talking about is not giving. It’s wealth redistribution. Giving implies free will. There is an important distinction between the two.

lol that doesn't support what you're saying or address what i said. Viekn said it right and you're a hypocritical idiot, in more ways than one.

[joeyb]

Obviously you don't or you wouldn't leave out the part of the sermon on the mount where the people ask Jesus to use his powers to take from the haves to feed the have nots. After that he basically told them how fucking stupid they were and left them behind.

Neveragin, does the bible and Jesus teach helping those in need? god is not against prosperity, but he is against greed. if your heart is truly for the Lord, wouldn't you help those you can with your riches?

or, do you just get to pick and choose what you believe when it suits you and then rationalize away the rest so you can convince yourself you are a true follower and good person

lol

[Suppressed Poet]

i'm good with canceling most debt. good idea

Awesome. Lets tax you and others that think that way at 95% of your income with no deductions or government benefits received to make it happen.

[Parkbandit]

fucking triggered! lol looks like a nerve was hit. you're rage posting like I dunked on you again, but it was SHAFT this time.

take a fucking breath and go have a drink or something. i know this message board is like 90% of what keeps you going in life, but you need to take it easy

Here's the last time you actually dunked on anything:

https://www.santastoyhouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/1-84.jpg

The picture is bigger than you are kid. Maybe practice on a big hoop before you come bragging about it here.

[Suppressed Poet]

if your heat is truly for the Lord

Thou shall not whack off to pictures of baby Jesus you sick fuck.

[Parkbandit]

i'm good with canceling most debt. good idea

Of course you are good with it. You own nothing, owe more than you are worth and aren't due anything from anyone.

You're the poster child for people who don't live within their means and believes the world owes them something for their shitty lot in life.

SPOILER: the world owes you nothing. Go get a job.

[Parkbandit]

Awesome. Lets tax you and others that think that way at 95% of your income with no deductions or government benefits received to make it happen.

You can't get blood from a stone.

That well is beyond dry.

[joeyb]

Awesome. Lets tax you and others that think that way at 95% of your income with no deductions or government benefits received to make it happen.

lol

[joeyb]

Here's the last time you actually dunked on anything:

<a stupid variation of the same picture he links every time he tries to defend himself against me making him look like an idiot>

The picture is bigger than you are kid. Maybe practice on a big hoop before you come bragging about it here.

lol it's so funny how annoyed you get by this. go outside

[joeyb]

Of course you are good with it. You own nothing, owe more than you are worth and aren't due anything from anyone.

You're the poster child for people who don't live within their means and believes the world owes them something for their shitty lot in life.

SPOILER: the world owes you nothing. Go get a job.

lol what the fuck are you even talking about? yes, i believe the world owes me something, yet i'm a proponent for student debt relief, even though i don't have any student debt as it's been paid off for many years, or any debt for that matter.

lmao at the projection. you're old and dumb and can't possibly conceive the idea of wanting policy that helps people but that doesn't benefit yourself.

[Parkbandit]

lol it's so funny how annoyed you get by this. go outside

It's funny how retarded you are.

Don't go outside, stay under your bed and read your Barney books.

[Parkbandit]

yes, i believe the world owes me something

Exactly.

This is why you will never amount to anything.

[Suppressed Poet]

i don't have any student debt

We know. It’s obvious to everyone that you are uneducated.

[joeyb]

jesus is this the 'old men who are too dumb to think of something to say so they quote out of context' brigade? lol you fucking dorks are pathetic.

[joeyb]

It's funny how retarded you are.

Don't go outside, stay under your bed and read your Barney books.

lmao read my Barney books?

literally the incarnate of cringe

[Methais]

Who are you going to sue?

Simutronics.

[Gelston]

Simutronics.

Do you understand how dangerous that might be? Their office wouldn't be able to afford fire extinguisher inspections anymore!

[Methais]

Your right, let's just completely ignore you've blamed government mandated shutdowns for the reason why forgivable PPP loans were created. You clearly posted that, but sure you retract it.

You're right, businesses weren't owed PPP money, because some state governments ordered restrictive social distancing and PPE requirements, we agree there.


You have to guess every single time, don't you?

[Methais]

I must've struck a nerve! do your kids know you're a slimeball piece of shit who trolls people on the internet all day? and you've been doing it for DECADES?

I mean we've had some losers on the PC but PB is the fucking king. Legend shit

$1000 to anyone who finds PB's kids and shows them the receipts of how much a loser their father is. record it so it can live forever

You're not gonna cyberstalk his daughter like Keller did for years, are you?

[Methais]

Do you understand how dangerous that might be? Their office wouldn't be able to afford fire extinguisher inspections anymore!

https://c.tenor.com/-DSYvCR3HnYAAAAC/beaker-fire.gif