Mast Tumors

[ElanthianSiren]

Does anyone know any alternative treatments for them?

My ferret was just diagnosed with two, and they can't biopsy them or remove them as one of her kidneys is enlarged and they feel that the anesthitization might kill her. The anasthetics they use go through the liver and kidneys.

So far, I am looking into shark liver oil and moducare (a combination they give human patients); the shark liver oil frankly scares the crap out of me because there is a lethal dose however, and she weighs 1.30 lbs (she's very petite).

They also gave us prednezone to act as a histamine blocker, which should keep her from digging at the tumor.

-Melissa

(this is her BTW)

http://www.geocities.com/rppages/melissamax3.JPG

[Iriscience]

I bet my boot would fix all your ferret's problems.

[Sean of the Thread]

I lost my Iguana to a tumor in his neck years ago. Wasn't shit I could do but give him extra yums yums until his dying day where the tumor actually go so big it chocked him out.

[Makkah]

(PS all anasthetics go through the liver and kidneys for elimination)

(PSS prednisone is always an histamine (h2) blocker)

[HarmNone]

Mast cells release histamine, prostaglandins, seratonin and other chemicals. They reside in the dermis (below the epidermis).

To be honest, I don't think there's much that can be done, other than palliative care, if the tumor cannot be surgically removed (and, in the case of Stage II or above, irradiated). Sounds like that's not an option in your ferret's case. Prednisone will help reduce the discomfort. Your vet might also recommend antihistimines (like benadryl) and an antacid. Other than that, the best you can do is love the little guy and stay aware of how he's acting. If he seems to be suffering, despite the medication, it may be time to consider putting him to rest.

I'm really sorry, hon. :(

[Makkah]

Yea it's shitty, but sounds like nothin really you can do. I hear mast cell cancer spreads almost as easily as lung or lymph cancer. Just enjoy things till they get really advanced.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by HarmNone
Mast cells release histamine, prostaglandins, seratonin and other chemicals. They reside in the dermis (below the epidermis).

To be honest, I don't think there's much that can be done, other than palliative care, if the tumor cannot be surgically removed (and, in the case of Stage II or above, irradiated). Sounds like that's not an option in your ferret's case. Prednisone will help reduce the discomfort. Your vet might also recommend antihistimines (like benadryl) and an antacid. Other than that, the best you can do is love the little guy and stay aware of how he's acting. If he seems to be suffering, despite the medication, it may be time to consider putting him to rest.

I'm really sorry, hon. :(

Thanks HN. So far, she is a trooper. Mast tumors supposedly cause weakness in a ferret's hind legs and dehydration as well as lethargy, followed by weight loss (our vet gave us a small print out about those and insulinomas).

She's still skuttling around though and actually gained weight (vs her weight before she had a tumor) this last visit to the specialist. On another good note too, the prednisone is helping much more with her hypoglycemia.

I was just curious if anyone else had a similar problem and what they did for it. It's just very strange being told that there's nothing at all they can do -- not even removal. Xyelin, how long did your Iguana last after you found the tumor, if you don't mind saying?

-Melissa

ps. Iriscience, there is a more appropriate thread for your comments; it's called Hackers Rule the World. I'm sure I could fix your problems with my shotgun :)

[Revalos]

My dog had some massive tumors on one of her legs that she lived with for about 4 years. But in the end she had to be put to sleep because it spread to her kidneys and upper legs. Sad thing to see...but we'll all go that way sometime...it is better to have fun while there aren't any major problems.

[MrFeature]

It's a fucking ferret. Kill it, skin it and eat it for a snack.

[Itachi]

Ya i think Family Guy said it best

Doctor: “Well, Rudolph, we finally figured out what makes your nose red.”
Rudolph: “Is it Pixie Dust? Or, or Leprechaun tails?”
Doctor: “No, it’s a tumor.”
Rudolph: “You mean, like a magical Christmas tumor?”
Doctor: “No, a malignant tumor. The base of which is lodged deep within your brain.”
Rudolph: “Oh. [Pause] Like a happy, special...”
Doctor: “You’re going to die.”

[Shari]

Why do I get the feeling that a good portion of the fucking idiots posting in this thread have never owned a pet other than a FLOATING goldfish?

Okay, after deleting several profanity-strewn closing sentences...I'll just grit my teeth and refrain.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Itachi
Ya i think Family Guy said it best

Doctor: “Well, Rudolph, we finally figured out what makes your nose red.”
Rudolph: “Is it Pixie Dust? Or, or Leprechaun tails?”
Doctor: “No, it’s a tumor.”
Rudolph: “You mean, like a magical Christmas tumor?”
Doctor: “No, a malignant tumor. The base of which is lodged deep within your brain.”
Rudolph: “Oh. [Pause] Like a happy, special...”
Doctor: “You’re going to die.”

Try again. It's not in her head. Also, if you knew anything about mast tumors, you would know that facial/cranial tumors actually have the highest success rate; over 75%. The more dangerous ones occur when a tumor is located on the trunk of the body.

I pray to god you never own an animal or if you do, it escapes to a home where individuals have better things to do than ignorantly speak from their asses to troll BBS boards. Seriously, to quote Arkans, you are as badass as a guy who beats up on retarded children.


-Melissa

[Warriorbird]

Yeah. Pets teach empathy. They can't have any of that nonsense.

[Showal]

Melissa,

I used to do cancer research and one of the things we noticed that limited tumor growth and in some case actually reversed tumor growth was caloric restriction (especially glucose restriction). There's something with how tumors can not process ketones for energy and without glucose they essentially starve. All you have to do is basically cut his daily food consumption to about 60%. If your ferret is group housed, this will be very difficult/impossible to do without separating her. Separating the ferret from its usual cage mates will like stress her out and cancel the benefits. Look into it though. My two ferrets are young and havent had any of the problems that ferrets are prone to ... yet. But you know the old saying how if you're going to get a ferret, put two grand away in the bank for each ferret because their vet bills are gauranteed to get high.

I'm sorry about your ferret but keep us updated to how she's doing. I almost bought another baby ferret this weekend but had to remove myself from the store because I wouldnt be able to afford it if all three got sick.

By the way, is she a silver ferret?

[Killer Kitten]

At the zoo when we had to anesthetize animals that were high risk cases (very juvenile or elderly, or kidney/liver issue patients) we always eschewed the standard injectables for a straight gas anesthesia.

When working with a small rodent or ferret my anesthesia of choice was always isoflurane/O2. We'd put it into the 'fish tank' (nickname for the anesthesia chamber) and pipe the gas in until they were unresponsive, then pull them out and go to a mask.

The great thing about straight inhalent anesthesia is that almost all of it is excreted via the lungs. So if an animal got into trouble the easiest way to get them out of trouble was pull the mask off and give the patient a little shake. This would usually trigger a gasp, and that one gasp of room air would work wonders. When they were breathing normally again, we'd pop the mask back on and finish the procedure.

You might want to ask your vet about this possibility. A lot of small animal practice vets don't think to use straight gas anesthesia because of the extra time involved in gassing an animal down as opposed to a shot of ketaset or other injectable. If they don't have an anesthesia chamber at their practice it's very easy to rig one up with a small animal carrier and a plastic bag. Or, with a very mellow ferret, dangle it by the scruff (which seems to make them go limp) and just deliver the gas witha facemask.

Good luck with your ferret. Having pets is one of the most marvelous things in the world, it's just a shame that we also have to experience when they become ill and pass away.

[ElanthianSiren]

Showal,

I was hoping you in particular would see this thread since you are my fellow ferretter here. She is a silver panda, yes. :) She is a single ferret, no cage mates. We joke we got the best one and couldn't POSSIBLY ever find one better in all the world.

I have put her on a holistic diet, (I read some things about cancer and wheat gluten that I didn't like). Here is her schedule the past three days:

6 AM
Meds
I had been administering 1/4 tablet of prednisone, but I consulted her doctor and upp'd it to 1/2 yesterday, as she continued to have the histimine reactions. Since the upp'd doseage, they have stopped with no adverse side effects yet.

Food
-1/4 chicken breast (raw not on the bone, though I am going to get her some on the bone meat next trip to the store)
-1 egg yolk (no white -- the things I read said the albumin will damage their coats)
-Very trace amounts of celery, broccoli, cauliflower (again, things I read said ferrets get most vegetation from the intestines of their prey and too much will have a laxitive effect).
-Drizzling of Ferre-vite (her favorite suppliment ever) -- probably about 1/4 ounce, so:
20.2 K/CAL
.004% manganese
.002% magnesium
.002% iron
.001% iodine
450 IU Vitamin A
30 IU Vitamin D
04 IU Vitamin E
14 mg vitamin C
2 mg Thiamine
.20 mg Riboflavin
1 mg B6
2.5 mg Panththenic Acid
2.5 mg Niacinamide
2.5 mcg Vitamin B12
.25 mg Folic Acid
50 mg Taurine


Human Suppliments
I crush these with mortar and pestle and place in food -- all are no sugar/fructose/cellulose added)

500 IU vitamin A (20% beta carotene)
06 mg vitamin C
40 IU vitamin D
03 IU vitamin E
02.5 mcg vitamin K
.15 mg vitamin B1 (Thiamin)
.17 mg vitamin B2 (Riboflavin)
10 mg Niacin
.20 mg vitamin B6
40 mcg folic acid
.60 mcg vitamin B12
3 mcg Biotin
1 mg panthothenic acid
16.2 mg calcium
1.8 mg iron
15 mcg iodine
10 mg magnesium
1.5 mg zinc
2 mcg selenium
.20 mg copper
.20 mg manganese
12 mcg chromium
7.5 mcg molybdenum
7.2 mg chloride
8.0 mg potassium
15 mcg boron
.50 mcg nickel
.20 mg silicon
1 mcg tin
1 mcg vanadium

68.333 MG licorice root extract (4:1) (for the upset stomach they said might occurr from pred)
8.3333 MG glycine
23 mg potassium gluconate
1 teaspoon calmac

10 AM -- there is usually a little food left in her dish that I coax her to eat with a spoon. She likes to be hand fed.

10:30 AM - 1:30 PM Nappy Time

01:30 pm - 2:30 PM second feeding (same as above)

4:00 PM - 05:00 PM Sunshine time (I always bring a cardboard box with us and a bottle of lukewarm tap water so she doesn't overheat/in case she overheats)

6:30 PM - 7:30 PM Third feeding (as above).

9:55 PM -- 1/2 tablet of Prednisone.

10:00 PM -- technically the fourth feeding. Since pred is a must eat medication, I make sure she eats some, but I am less strict about how much she eats at this time and leave her food in cage until 6 am.

I will be sure to keep you updated, either here, or on my blog thread, as writing tends to be my main outlet when I am concerned. I appreciate any helpful suggestions/support you (and others) give.

-Melissa

[Showal]

Iso, a vet's best friend.

Very safe to use.

Be careful with adding new things to the ferret's routine, such as the shark liver oil and moducare. Ferrets are more on the lines of a cat than a dog in respect to they're allergic to a lot of things. If it's not a common treatment in ferrets, I'd stay away.

More research needs to be put into ferret care. A ferret distemper shot needs to be developed as one of the common side effects of the canine distemper shot in ferrets is "sudden death".

Ferrets have for a while been treated as an exotic or wild animal and are banned from a good number of states, currently or recently. This has brought the demand for more ferret friendly treatments down and the amount of ferret specific products are few too. Ferrets are becoming extremely popular and research is starting to come their way though. There's talk of a melatonin implant to reduce/eliminate the risk of adrenal disease.

Make sure you have a ferret experienced vet too.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Killer Kitten
At the zoo when we had to anesthetize animals that were high risk cases (very juvenile or elderly, or kidney/liver issue patients) we always eschewed the standard injectables for a straight gas anesthesia.

When working with a small rodent or ferret my anesthesia of choice was always isoflurane/O2. We'd put it into the 'fish tank' (nickname for the anesthesia chamber) and pipe the gas in until they were unresponsive, then pull them out and go to a mask.

The great thing about straight inhalent anesthesia is that almost all of it is excreted via the lungs. So if an animal got into trouble the easiest way to get them out of trouble was pull the mask off and give the patient a little shake. This would usually trigger a gasp, and that one gasp of room air would work wonders. When they were breathing normally again, we'd pop the mask back on and finish the procedure.

You might want to ask your vet about this possibility. A lot of small animal practice vets don't think to use straight gas anesthesia because of the extra time involved in gassing an animal down as opposed to a shot of ketaset or other injectable. If they don't have an anesthesia chamber at their practice it's very easy to rig one up with a small animal carrier and a plastic bag. Or, with a very mellow ferret, dangle it by the scruff (which seems to make them go limp) and just deliver the gas witha facemask.

Good luck with your ferret. Having pets is one of the most marvelous things in the world, it's just a shame that we also have to experience when they become ill and pass away.

Wow, I will definitely ask. Thanks :) I'm almost positive it wasn't considered because the vet directly told us that ALL of their anesthetics were processed through liver/kidneys. Thank you so much! If they will allow it, I will update and let everyone know.

-Melissa

[Showal]

That actually looks really good.

Keep the protein up and the greens down. (High protein makes the ferret and their poop smell less too)

Make sure you wean her off the pred if it comes to that since it is a steroid. I know with humans you're cautioned against staying on prednisone for more than 10 days unless necessary. I could be wrong though and it could be different with ferrets.

Good choice with going holistic. I'm a strong advocate of holistic treatments over conventional treatments when it's going to be a long term treatment. Conventional is best for any short term treatments like respiratory ailments and the like. I have a book written by a holistic vet and she might have put some suggestions in it for something along these lines, I'll take a look when I get home for you.

Best of luck hun. It looks good.

[Showal]

I believe iso is metabolized through the liver and kidneys too. We use it daily here. Most anesthetics are.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Showal

Make sure you have a ferret experienced vet too.

Our vet is Dr. Karen Allum, one of the very best in PA, supposedly. I only ever took Max to two other vets: one was just a DVM, the other was a ferret specialist in Norristown.

The DVM had tried to convince me that her hypoglycemia was so advanced (at age 2) to have her put down because there was obviously something wrong with her and she wasn't going to 'last much longer in her current condition' -- 6 years ago.

The other was a ferret specialist, but I didn't like him. He was impossible to get ahold of and on vacation/unreachable once when Maxienne caught a virus that took about 1/3rd of her body weight (which led us to the vet we have now).

I am fairly confident in the vet we have now. I just can't wait until they open to call :D

-Melissa

[AnticorRifling]

You ferret eats better than most people heh. And That's a very cool looking pet. I don't think I could convince the wife to let me have one though. Miniature weiners is as close as I could get heh.

Good luck with this, my dog growing up got cancer and had to be put down but she lived a good six years with no ill affects aside from the growth(s).

[Showal]

Get them anyways Anticor. Your wife will love them after you bring them home.

[Showal]

I forgot to praise you for the time and attention to give her too. A single ferret can be a lonely ferret and needs to have attention given daily. I'm sure she's the happiest thing too.

[Showal]

Oh Melissa,

Check this site out.

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/NorthAmerica/

It's a live webcam of a black footed ferret's sleep box.

[Showal]

I've been reading up in my vet clinical medicine books about this and a few of the interesting things I've read are:

"Visceral involvement and malignant behavior of mast cell tumors are rare in ferrets."

"Surgical biopsy provides the definitive diagnosis, but analysis of an aspirate of the mass may reveal mature mast cells. Surgical resection is generally curative. One author has describe spontaneous resolution and recurrence of lesions over a period of time."

From the sound of it and what I've been reading, an aspirate of the tumor can reveal what exactly it is so a biopsy is not absolutely necessary. It seems like you and your vet have already diagnosed the tumors and mast tumors, which is more than likely correct. Watch the area for ulcerations and sores caused by scratching (which the antihistamines should help limit). If sores do develop, you'll have to keep the area clean to prevent infection.

The good news is that the tumors, as said in the quotes, rarely demonstrate visceral involvement and malignant behavior ... meaning organ systems are not likely to be effected and the tumors are usually benign. I imagine she can live for a while like this and without surgery. Keep her comfortable and show her plenty of love.

You might also be happy to know that even though most tumors of the skin are considered malignant, most of these tumors removed at places like The Animal Medical Center in New York and Angell Memorial Animal Hospital in Boston are actually benign.

I'm not saying dont keep checking up with your vet on how she's progressing, that'd just be foolish. I want to let you know that there is hope for your fuzzie.


Man ... have you learned yet that I like ferrets? haha

[Edited on 5-9-2005 by Showal]

[HarmNone]

That IS good news, Showal! I sure hope it applies in this little ferret's case. :)

[ElanthianSiren]

:D :D :D

What excellent News Showal. Thank you! You've given me so much hope with your research and patience. I am very grateful to you and the others in this thread who have shown support. :heart:

I spoke to the vet earlier, and she said that she would consider Iso IF my ferret's kidney could return to a normal size (it is 5x larger than it should be she said). She said that the size of it alone (enlarged organ) is prohibitive to surgery. She also cautioned me that they have A LOT of trouble controlling pain response in small animals with Iso (ie: they think they're asleep and they wake up). I suggested the mask and she seemed kind of iffy about that.

Maxienne ferret danced today when I had her out in the sunshine -- she is still very weak and stumbly, but is doing a little better with the holistic diet. No low sugars thus far, (knock on wood). I am somewhat worried because she vomitted her dinner this evening.

Previous to giving her calmac for her calcium, I was giving her egg shells. I almost feel I should return to the egg shells and discontinue the calmac (as her vomit was very frothy and only occurred once, leading me to believe it was digestive, not bile reactive of the pred).

-Melissa

[ElanthianSiren]

ps: I brought her up to see the nesting ferrets and the still shots on the site,(though I doubt she could actually see them), and she started doing the panda prayer hands and pawing at the screen :)

-Melissa

[HarmNone]

Aww! She wants a chair like those other two ferrets have! Hers should be pink, with lavender accents. ;)

[Showal]

haha something like buprenorphine (buprenex) is commonly used for pain management in "rodents". Ferrets generally arent considered rodents, but their treatment's similar. However, it most likely is metabolized through the kidneys and liver. They might have some sort of topical stuff for pain management, along the lines of something like anbesol that we use for humans.

Tell the vet she vomitted though, that's very rare in ferrets. Do you know what's causing her kidney to enlarge?

My ferrets right now are playing with their best friend, our dog nina. She's a pitbull/lab mix and LOVES playing with ferrets. She tackles them and chases them, they chase her and bite her legs. I'm surprised they've never gotten in a fight but she's remarkably gentle with them but still rough like ferrets love to play.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Showal
haha something like buprenorphine (buprenex) is commonly used for pain management in "rodents". Ferrets generally arent considered rodents, but their treatment's similar. However, it most likely is metabolized through the kidneys and liver. They might have some sort of topical stuff for pain management, along the lines of something like anbesol that we use for humans.

Tell the vet she vomitted though, that's very rare in ferrets. Do you know what's causing her kidney to enlarge?

My ferrets right now are playing with their best friend, our dog nina. She's a pitbull/lab mix and LOVES playing with ferrets. She tackles them and chases them, they chase her and bite her legs. I'm surprised they've never gotten in a fight but she's remarkably gentle with them but still rough like ferrets love to play.

They're not sure what is enlarging her kidney. The vet thought perhaps that the tumor had metasticized and the cancer spread there, I think. That would be not normal based on the research you posted, but I assume, not impossible either.

I am going to make another appointment with her to discuss all the things I've learned, and I think I am going to push for surgery. I can't tell if Maxienne's kidney is still inflated, but I'm sure the vet will be able to.

Honestly, I confess to missing about an eighth of what she said to me when she said the C word. My last two dogs died of cancer, and I was absolutely mortified when she told me that surgery was not an option.

Our previous dogs LOVED my ferret. Abel is not overly fond of her (thinks she's a lure), but he has learned to control his instinct to chase her. Also, I think he can tell she's sick and that I'm upset about it. He has been reasonably gentle with her lately or ignored her all together. My old dog, Bandit (Bigs), would find my ferret if I ever lost her anywhere in the house, and she'd sit on my bed gazing at her with one of those big happy stupid doggy grins. Abel has gone so far as to allow her the esteemed HONOR of crawl on him while he sleeps (greyhounds, are not known for being the best sleep/wake dogs), but I still don't trust them to play together like Nina with yours. It sounds like you have a sweet setup :)


-Melissa

[HarmNone]

I really hope your vet can find some option for little Maxienne, hon. If she's healthy enough to undergo surgery, I'd opt for that, as well. Get the bloody tumors off of her! Couldn't they do an CAT scan, or MRI, to see what's causing the renal enlargement? It would probably be pricey, but I imagine it would be worth it to you.

I think ferrets are adorable and would love to have one. However, I think my mother and grandmother would put a major hurtin' on this Pagan if I dragged home a ferret to add to these five freaking cats! :lol:

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by HarmNone
I really hope your vet can find some option for little Maxienne, hon. If she's healthy enough to undergo surgery, I'd opt for that, as well. Get the bloody tumors off of her! Couldn't they do an CAT scan, or MRI, to see what's causing the renal enlargement? It would probably be pricey, but I imagine it would be worth it to you.

I think ferrets are adorable and would love to have one. However, I think my mother and grandmother would put a major hurtin' on this Pagan if I dragged home a ferret to add to these five freaking cats! :lol:

I dunno if a CAT scan or an MRI would show why the kidney was enlarged, just that it was? I confess though, in the way of CAT and MRI, I am ignorant. If it's an option, I will mention it at the appointment. I am making a list of all the things to mention and will post them here for you, as well as her responses.

Just give them lots of Bailey's HN, they'll come around :) My mother is one of the most psychotically-clean people in the world, and even she LOVED my ferret. They are just so happy. It's so hard not to love them. I mean, how can you argue with an animal that gets so excited, it jumps two feet in the air and twists midair while vaulting, only to land on its feet with a quick, high pitched "ee-oo, ee-oo!" at you? - or a little nibble at the top of your foot to say, "I care"? :D

-Melissa

[HarmNone]

Heh. That behavior sounds just like a couple of my cats; although, I understand the behavior of ferrets and cats is often compared. I think the ladies would just figure I've gone mad, since five cats is more than enough to deal with at any one time; especially, since they tend to work as a group to annoy the dickens out of us. :D

A CAT scan will show if there's some kind of growth (like a renal stone), a blockage, or something else that's causing the enlargement. An MRI focuses more intricately on soft tissue growths. I'd think a CAT scan could give some good information on what's going on. CAT scans are a good bit less expensive than MRIs.

[Sylvan Dreams]

Are you seeing a vet that specializes in small animals? A regular cat/dog type vet isn't going to have the same amount of experience in performing surgery on a small animal like ferrets and rabbits. I take my cats to one vet and my rabbit to another for that reason.

[ElanthianSiren]

My vet is a ferret specialist, so yes :)

I will ask about the MRI and a CAT. If it's just a stone, and that will prove that to her, she might be more willing to operate. I am basically going in field to do what Showal does (I think) -- medical research and R&D. Again, I know nothing of cats/mris and their uses. Thanks for the info HN :)

-Melissa

ps. I would have a million cats, but others here are allergic. Cats are wonderful, no matter how much mischief they get into. Also, ferrets ARE kinda cats -- they are technically polecats!

[Edited on Tue, May th, 2005 by ElanthianSiren]

[Killer Kitten]

Originally posted by Showal
I believe iso is metabolized through the liver and kidneys too. We use it daily here. Most anesthetics are.

A small percentage of Iso is metabolized through the liver and excreted through the kidneys. The percentage of the drug leaving the body in that manner is way smaller than that for injectable anesthetics, which is why a straight inhalent was always our drug of choice for a 'handlable' animal at the zoo. (It's easy to mask down a prairie dog, for example, but in a puma the short 'excitement phase' on the way to sleepy land could prove painful to the keeper restraining the animal. <g> )

When doing a surgical procedure where the sole anesthetizing drug is Isoflurane, maintaining the anesthesia VIA facemask or endotrachial tube is an absolute must. If you masked a ferret down and failed to keep him on the gas he'd leap off the table at first incision. It isn't practical or workable to just use the gas intermittently, it has to be maintained pretty much constantly.

The beauty of Iso is that a surgical plane of anesthesia can be reached and maintained easily and safely with a high-risk patient.

I used to have a cat who was born with a hepatic shunt. In shunt animals, the circulatory system bypasses the part where it goes through the liver and toxins are removed. This leads to all sorts of neurological complications as toxins build up in the blood. Drugs, even antibiotics, have to be administered very carefully in shunt animals because nothing gets detoxified the way it should.

When we spayed her, we used straight Iso/O2 as anesthesia. The vet surgicated like Speed Racer (6 minutes from initial incision to final suture) and she woke up within minutes of her facemask being removed. Within half an hour she was back to her charming (if slightly addled) little self.

As with any anesthesia, there is an inherent risk with Iso/O2, but that risk is considerably less than with any injectable that I've ever seen used.

[Showal]

<<(It's easy to mask down a prairie dog, for example, but in a puma the short 'excitement phase' on the way to sleepy land could prove painful to the keeper restraining the animal. <g> ) >>

Yeah that initial excitement phase is always a little shocking no matter how many times you see it.

<As with any anesthesia, there is an inherent risk with Iso/O2, but that risk is considerably less than with any injectable that I've ever seen used.>>

Very true. Good thing they dont use halothane or the like anymore. Iso is a much safer, easier generation of anesthetics to use and control. You seriously pour a little in the kettle and determine the flow rate.

You're right Melissa, I'm in R&D for work. It's hard being an animal lover and working in this field but a lot is gained from it. If you're into it, go for it ... just get into research you find beneficial or else you'll always be asking yourself is it worth it.

I dont know if an MRI or a CAT scan would show what's enlarging the kidney as it's probably some sort of information. But if it is some sort of stone or blockage, it's clearly best to be treated. I'd at least bring it up to the vet. She could be right, the tumors could be spreading and even though the research says it's uncommon, it's not impossible. Ferrets routinely go through kidney/adrenal problems, especially as they age, that it could just be something else as well. If it's some sort of inflammation, i wonder if they could use something like metacam to bring it down. It's a great NSAID which is good because you probably dont want her on any more steroids than she's on with the pred. I used the metacam for one of my rats whos foot swelled up huge one night, brought it down to the point where he could walk on it in about 1-2 days and cleared it up completely in about a week and a half.

With all ferret problems, you just got to hope for the best but prepare for the worst. Sounds like you have a good vet though and, even if the worst does happen, you can at least know that you've explored all the options and did what you can ... if anything, you know she's loving the extra attention.

I gotta get working but I'll check up on this thread throughout the day throwing in whatever insight I might think of. I'm sure I'm going to have to deal with the same thing eventually with my boys so I might as well learn what I can now. I'll find pictures of them to share.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Showal

You're right Melissa, I'm in R&D for work. It's hard being an animal lover and working in this field but a lot is gained from it. If you're into it, go for it ... just get into research you find beneficial or else you'll always be asking yourself is it worth it.

Here is how my dad explained it to me, knowing how much I love animals: "Well, do you really want someone who DOESN'T love animals as much as you administering those treatments and checking on them?" The answer, of course, was no, so I guess it's better to have animal lovers in our chosen field of work than animal haters as animal testing will be done regardless.



Originally posted by Showal

Ferrets routinely go through kidney/adrenal problems, especially as they age, that it could just be something else as well. If it's some sort of inflammation, i wonder if they could use something like metacam to bring it down. It's a great NSAID which is good because you probably dont want her on any more steroids than she's on with the pred.

The kidney problems were actually one of my misgivings with putting her on a holistic diet. I know high protien diets are tough on human kidneys. I have diabetes I, and that was one of the things my endocrinologist cautioned me about as per doing Atkins as a lifestyle. However, in doing Atkins as a lifestyle, I had far fewer high/low blood sugars, as did my father, who is hypoglycemic. This led me to hypothesize that my ferret may hopefully have fewer low blood sugars as well on a holistic-type diet.

Further, biology training teaches you to ID an animal based on its mouth parts. A ferret, clearly has carnivorous mouth parts and should then, clearly be on a carnivorous diet, not a diet where the main component is wheat gluton IMO. So, that was my reasoning, even in light of my misgivings about the diet. I just hope I made the right decision; it's not like she can tell me, "Mommy, I don't feel good today."

I will post some pics of the tumor/s and Maxienne when I locate the digital camera. It's packed away somewhere, though I have been looking. One of her sores, the larger one, is ulcerated. It has since scabbed over, though it still shows the black flakey patches consistent with mast growth.

Also, I want to document her weight with photos/charts. I feel somewhat guilty that this has progressed as far as it has. It took me two weeks to get her to a vet, but hopefully the vet will be able to take our suggestions to heart and remove it. She has another appointment a month from yesterday. They felt it was best to wait until then to try to give the pred time to work and stabilize her -- she also has a heart arrhythmia that she didn't have last time she was in. :( A month just seems like forever to me though.

The vet did say as long as she is passing urine well, not vomitting, no diarriah, that the holistic diet is fine, but she cautioned me not to discontinue the pred -- yea right.

-Melissa

[Showal]

<<Here is how my dad explained it to me, knowing how much I love animals: "Well, do you really want someone who DOESN'T love animals as much as you administering those treatments and checking on them?" The answer, of course, was no, so I guess it's better to have animal lovers in our chosen field of work than animal haters as animal testing will be done regardless.>>

That's my take. You'll see the difference between the people who develop a respect for the lab animals and treat them respectfully and the people who don't and treat them as such. It's kind of depressing how some people feel they can treat lab animals simply because they're lab animals. A lot of times they'll use the excuse: "Well, I dont want to get attached." Bullshit.

<<The vet did say as long as she is passing urine well, not vomitting, no diarriah, that the holistic diet is fine, but she cautioned me not to discontinue the pred -- yea right. >>

Don't discontinue the pred without telling her or her OK. You need to wean her off of it, you can't just discontinue it. She'll go through withdrawal.

[Betheny]

Originally posted by MrFeature
It's a fucking ferret. Kill it, skin it and eat it for a snack.

Here is where I whip out my Uber Staff of +20 Asstard Slaying and beat the shit out of you. Whoever the fuck you are.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Showal

It's kind of depressing how some people feel they can treat lab animals simply because they're lab animals. A lot of times they'll use the excuse: "Well, I dont want to get attached." Bullshit.

Don't discontinue the pred without telling her or her OK. You need to wean her off of it, you can't just discontinue it. She'll go through withdrawal.


It would seem to me that anytime you work with an animal extensively, you get attached. I used to volunteer at a stable and raise A.K.C. registered pups; I can tell you that none of those animals were "mine", but it always felt that way when one didn't make it.

The yea right was because I never would discontinue meds against medical advice. I'm not a christian scientist or a total naturalist. I know my baby needs them and have read the disclaimers about pred -- she could die if I discontinue it without warning. I'd never risk that.

-Melissa -- no human kids, obviously.

[Showal]

Betheny's a fellow ferreter too.

I'd be interested to see what the tumors look like if that's ok with you.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Showal
Betheny's a fellow ferreter too.

I'd be interested to see what the tumors look like if that's ok with you.

I'll look for the digicam today and post up some pics. I took the day off from the market to unpack some boxes and look after the animals (well okay, I played one stock, but just one!).

The tumor on the "wing" of her left arm isn't bad at all and has receeded to just a lump under her fur with the pred, but the one on her back is VERY noticable (also because I shaved/cut all the fur from around it so as not to irritate it more).

-Melissa

[Showal]

I've never seen a mast tumor other than in clinical books and those are generally worse case scenario pictures.

I'd ask your vet what to do to try to keep the ulcerated one clean, or if you should worry about it. With wounds they say "if it's wet, get it dry. if it's dry, get it wet." I know a good disinfectant that's safe to use on animals is novalsan (chlorhexidine - it's used by surgeons to scrub up before a surgery) which is a drying agent for any wet sores. Triple antibiotic is generally used for dry wounds. Double check with your vet though because she might want you to treat it only if it needs to be. I dont really know how to treat ulcerated sores over normal sores.

[ElanthianSiren]

The vet told us to use triple antibiotic. The sore has actually dried out A LOT since and scabbed over mostly. I have pics. If you'd like better ones or different angles, I can do that too. Getting Max to sit still for this is like trying to photograph a three year old though, so I may start doing it after I take her out for sunshine time -- when she's nice and tired. Without further adieu:

http://www.geocities.com/rppages/bigtumor.jpg
the larger tumor.

http://www.geocities.com/rppages/bigtumor1.jpg
this shot lets you get a better idea of how large the mass is compared to the rest of her.

http://www.geocities.com/rppages/liltumor.jpg
the smaller tumor -- I didn't shave around this one.

http://www.geocities.com/rppages/message.jpg
Max told me she had a message for the people who wanted to skin and eat her. Like any good parent, I've taught her the value of non-verbal communication.


-Melissa