Divergence 2.0

[Dendum]

Just...suggestions at this point

Do not shoot the messenger

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kN-1Of1A8HvgERjNQdBrXpQGk-SH72q4gqja9dkp33I/edit#

[Tgo01]

Roundtime added from AIM is no longer reducible.

Oh for fuck's sake.

515:


Standard
Cast time is reduced to 2s.
Evoke
Cast time is reduced to 1s.
60 second duration of 1s cast time
180 second cooldown
33% potential uptime
Note: this is already in Divergence and included for clarity.


Fuck's sake x 2.

140:


No cast time
90 second max duration
270 second cooldown
33% potential uptime
Cooldown applies to the target not the caster


I didn't even know they were planning on nerfing 140. What the heck even is this?

919:


No cast time
60 second duration
180 second cooldown
33% potential uptime


Really? A level 19 spell in a pure spell circle really needs to be nerfed this badly?

"People have too much mana!!!"
"What's the solution?"
"Slap a bunch of cooldowns on spells so people will have even MORE mana while they hunt because they won't have anything to use the mana on!"

Bards are getting completely screwed over too.

Bard spellsong failures now drains mana and incurs castRT, 1030 getting nerfed, 1035 getting REALLY nerfed (will no longer apply to the group, just the bard, plus a bunch of other nerfs.)

Are the GMs just trying to suck the fun right out of this game or what?

[WRoss]

211 and 215 kills empath and cleric bolters. RIP any empath or cleric wanting to use weapons.

[Tgo01]

211 and 215 kills empath and cleric bolters. RIP any empath or cleric wanting to use weapons.

To be fair the 211 and 215 changes I think are just the group cast versions of the spells.

[Orthin]

as they keep adding tweaks they just want to make sure no one hunts in there new areas huh? They should have just beefed up the mobs like they hint to in the document. Would be cooler to have a very hard hunting zone because the critters are just beasts or like invasion ass-kickers that encourage groups to hunt in that vein versus just doing all these tweaks that folks have to remember or keep up with

[Archigeek]

as they keep adding tweaks they just want to make sure no one hunts in there new areas huh? They should have just beefed up the mobs like they hint to in the document. Would be cooler to have a very hard hunting zone because the critters are just beasts or like invasion ass-kickers that encourage groups to hunt in that vein versus just doing all these tweaks that folks have to remember or keep up with

That's what The Scatter was supposed to be, but solo hunters solo hunt, and most people prefer to solo, even in that place that was designed for group hunting.

[Taernath]

Bravery (211)
Group benefit changed to EVOKE
60 second duration
180 second cooldown
33% potential uptime
Cooldown applies to the target not the caster
Lore requirements reduced to 25 ranks
Group/lore version is exempt from Manastorm, Spellburst, and Spell Sever.

Heroism (215)
Group benefit changed to EVOKE.
60 second duration
180 second cooldown
33% potential uptime
Lore requirements reduced to 35 ranks
Cooldown applies to the target not the caster
Group/lore version is exempt from Manastorm, Spellburst, and Spell Sever.

Spell Shield (219)
Group benefit changed to EVOKE.
120 second duration
360 second cooldown
33% potential uptime
Lore requirements reduced to 50 ranks
Cooldown applies to the target not the caster
Group/lore version is exempt from Manastorm, Spellburst, and Spell Sever.


Why even have these in the game at this point? Functionally they and bolt spells no longer exist for my mid level cleric.

[Gelston]

Spell Hindrance
Bard spellsong hindrance drains mana and incurs cast roundtime. Note: this is already in Divergence and included for clarity.

Bahahahaha

[Methais]

Are the GMs just trying to suck the fun right out of this game or what?

Yes.


Estild — Yesterday at 9:24 PM
But he does often make compelling arguments. I’m willing to consider any feedback. But if you’re argument is just that it’s less “fun”, I’m sorry, but as a game, we have a higher standard.

Estild — Yesterday at 10:08 PM
We can’t and don’t balance the game around losing or gaining subscribers. That’s not a sustainable position. The moment we give in to those demands, we’re then beholden to them anytime any player does or doesn’t like the changes we make. I hate when any player chooses not to play our game anymore, but the greatest good must always win over the individual wants/needs
of a single or handful of players. We’ve had just as many players quit over the lack of balance due to being on the bottom as we’ve had those at the top who then get downtweaked.

[Gelston]

Estild — Yesterday at 10:08 PM
We can’t and don’t balance the game around losing or gaining subscribers. That’s not a sustainable position. The moment we give in to those demands, we’re then beholden to them anytime any player does or doesn’t like the changes we make. I hate when any player chooses not to play our game anymore, but the greatest good must always win over the individual wants/needs
of a single or handful of players. We’ve had just as many players quit over the lack of balance due to being on the bottom as we’ve had those at the top who then get downtweaked.

Seriously? The number 1 thing should be gaining and/or maintaining your current base. No players = no game.

[Viekn]

Seriously? The number 1 thing should be gaining and/or maintaining your current base. No players = no game.

I'm not arguing that nerfs suck, especially some of the reasoning they use to justify them. But if that's Estild's mindset and he's gotten that mindset because of either data he sees or data that's been relayed to him from what one would hope is a reliable source, then maybe the numbers they see are saying to them that they aren't worried about subscriber loss being an actual threat to the long term viability of the game. Which, in and of itself, is a good thing, because it means in actuality the long term viability is healthier than we might believe. But if he's not basing that mindset off of actual data, then yeah, that way of thinking will cause serious trouble. Just a thought. I'm probably wrong, but one can hope. Oh, wait, this is Simu, why is hope even a part of my thinking.

[Gelston]

I'm not arguing that nerfs suck, especially some of the reasoning they use to justify them. But if that's Estild's mindset and he's gotten that mindset because of either data he sees or data that's been relayed to him from what one would hope is a reliable source, then maybe the numbers they see are saying to them that they aren't worried about subscriber loss being an actual threat to the long term viability of the game. Which, in and of itself, is a good thing, because it means in actuality the long term viability is healthier than we might believe. But if he's not basing that mindset off of actual data, then yeah, that way of thinking will cause serious trouble. Just a thought. I'm probably wrong, but one can hope. Oh, wait, this is Simu, why is hope even a part of my thinking.

Even if there is data suggesting it is fine, making things shitty can cause that data to change.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I'd love to see the data science and analytics shop at SIMU...

[Gelston]

I'd love to see the data science and analytics shop at SIMU...

it centers around paying for fire extinguisher inspections.

[Methais]

I'd love to see the data science and analytics shop at SIMU...

https://i.imgur.com/cFmzQTC.jpg

[Viekn]

https://i.imgur.com/cFmzQTC.jpg

I was literal SECONDS away from calling on you to post a meme/gif. You do not disappoint.

[Dendum]

Seriously? The number 1 thing should be gaining and/or maintaining your current base. No players = no game.

Historically with very niche products you either cater to your niche or die. This game isn't going to pull in a gaggle of 12 year olds spending mom's money on P2W.

I agree with the idea (his) "in theory" but...meh..

[Taernath]

I'd love to see the data science and analytics shop at SIMU...

https://frinkiac.com/img/S08E11/289555.jpg

[Gelston]

Historically with very niche products you either cater to your niche or die. This game isn't going to pull in a gaggle of 12 year olds spending mom's money on P2W.

I agree with the idea (his) "in theory" but...meh..

Maintaining was one of the qualifiers I put in there.

[drumpel]

Well shit.

I love how they've painted their selves into a corner over the past 10 or so years with all the overhauls they did with things:

* unchecked releasing of SK items
* weapon/armor overhaul to allow everything under the sun to be added to them


These two main things have been a thorn in the side for a long time and look what happens....the end results are to nerf beneficial spells across many classes so they can try and "balance" these new hunting areas. What a bunch of fucking retards.

They need to stop doing stupid stuff and fix things, not nerf them down to slow people down or to artificially make a hunting area more difficult.


Why do they need to buff/adjust how some weapons work in these areas? For fuck's sake, overhaul the weapon system and stop with the band-aid crap. So many weapons need their RT/AvD/DF adjusted up and some need them brought down a little. The weapon skills should be tied to the weapon types and should automatically trigger when you're using the weapon.

Hopefully this stupid shit doesn't leak out to older hunting areas......but knowing them it probably will.

[Methais]

Forgot this excerpt earlier :lol:

Dendum — Yesterday at 7:18 PM
Estlid....this really really feels like you couldn't handle the Bard tears so your speeding the rest of us up

Estild — Yesterday at 7:18 PM
Everyone is converging to the middle, which has always been the “goal”.

Dendum — Yesterday at 7:19 PM
Maybe you should have called this Convergence then




Gemstone IV: The Race to Mediocrity

[Neveragain]

Am I understanding this right, they are trying to make one of the biggest time sinks in the history of online gaming an even longer time sink?

[Methais]

Am I understanding this right, they are trying to make one of the biggest time sinks in the history of online gaming an even longer time sink?

Yes.

[Donquix]

Forgot this excerpt earlier :lol:

Dendum — Yesterday at 7:18 PM
Estlid....this really really feels like you couldn't handle the Bard tears so your speeding the rest of us up

Estild — Yesterday at 7:18 PM
Everyone is converging to the middle, which has always been the “goal”.

Dendum — Yesterday at 7:19 PM
Maybe you should have called this Convergence then




Gemstone IV: The Race to Mediocrity

you gonna log into HW die then come cry about it again like last time? it was pretty funny seeing you fucking die to baby shit then immediately rage post a novel on discord.

[Methais]

you gonna log into HW die then come cry about it again like last time? it was pretty funny seeing you fucking die to baby shit then immediately rage post a novel on discord.

The only time I've died in HW was my first time going up into the undead area while having no clue what to expect. Everything else is easy as fuck, and when I posted in Discord I hadn't even been logged in for most of the day, plus that was a different day than the one time I did die. And before then I was out drinking all evening, making it impossible to "immediately" post anything. I didn't even think about posting in Discord until someone sent me a screenshot of Naijin's quote from below. HW is easy, especially the "baby" stuff, but still boring as fuck because of Divergence. Everything I said is the same shit I've been saying for years about dev and their shitty ideas as well. So lie some more while you suck off Estild and Naijin 24/7 why don't you, fucking retard. :rofl:


EDIT: Here's the "novel" that annihilated Donquix's attention span:

https://i.imgur.com/gVCKXRD.png
https://i.imgur.com/9oICfZm.png

And like 5 minutes later...

https://i.imgur.com/mX2ai2w.png

[Gelston]

The only time I've died in HW was my first time going up into the undead area while having no clue what to expect. Everything else is easy as fuck, and when I posted in Discord I hadn't even been logged in for most of the day, plus that was a different day than the one time I did die. HW is easy, especially the "baby" stuff, but still boring as fuck because of Divergence. I specifically stated this when I posted in Discord too, so lie some more why don't you, fucking retard.

Donquix said you don't like yo momma

[Methais]

Donquix said you don't like yo momma

He's just mad that Estild won't put his penis in his mouth no matter how much he tries to tickle his balls in Discord.

[BLZrizz]

Enjoying the area and I really appreciate that the difficulty is keeping out the bigshotters/industrial MA teams out of the area. I see one of the MA groups in town but they don't seem to be able to strip mine the area as they do normally. I think the gens just go from normal to insane so quickly it's just too hard to MA. For now anyway.

[Dendum]

Enjoying the area and I really appreciate that the difficulty is keeping out the bigshotters/industrial MA teams out of the area. I see one of the MA groups in town but they don't seem to be able to strip mine the area as they do normally. I think the gens just go from normal to insane so quickly it's just too hard to MA. For now anyway.

I am pretty sure they are staying away because it isn't the most BP/EXP/Silver vs time efficient place at the moment.

[Realk]

I don't think there is such a place that has all three of those qualifiers at the same time anymore... unless you count reim...

[Dendum]

I don't think there is such a place that has all three of those qualifiers at the same time anymore... unless you count reim...

Yea but with the possible exception of silvers HW aint none of those things

[Neveragain]

And like 5 minutes later...

https://i.imgur.com/mX2ai2w.png

You could, like, play blindfolded if you want more challenge.

https://media4.giphy.com/media/gVoBC0SuaHStq/giphy.gif

[Methais]

I don't think there is such a place that has all three of those qualifiers at the same time anymore... unless you count reim...

SoS is all 3. Loot in HW seems to be better, but the slower combat probably makes other places better silver per hour.

I did pull a +10 Combat Maneuvers bonus pinworn out of a HW box the other day that's probably worth a decent pile though.


That reminds me, selling a +10 CM bonus pinworn



It provides a boost of 10 to Combat Maneuvers Bonus.
This enhancement may not be used by adventurers who have not trained 55 times.
The barrette looks to have a lot of charges remaining.

You sense that the blue starstone barrette will crumble into dust after its last enhancive charge has been expended.

You sense that the blue starstone barrette will disintegrate after its last magical charge has been expended.

[Tgo01]

We’ve had just as many players quit over the lack of balance due to being on the bottom

Who are these people that demanded bard spellsong failures result in mana loss and castRT? I want to meet these people so I can slap them.

Seriously of all the things wrong with this game they decide to focus on a perk one particular class enjoys?

I used to tell people how awesome it is that the different classes in this game are so unique. The classes just have many different perks and abilities that really makes playing them a completely different strategy than playing a different class. And bards being able to effectively ignore cast failures was one of those perks, but now I guess they want bards to be just like every other class?

What's next: people complain that they can't sit in TC and get experience in the same way that empaths can so another 4-5 classes can also heal wounds? It's not fair that clerics have such an easy time raising dead people compared to paladins, better buff up paladin's rez, oh and while we're at it make it so every pure and semi can rez too.

And don't even get me started how redux is basically just for squares!

Why even have classifications such as squares, semis, and pures?! That's classism pure and simple!

[Gelston]

I always thought it was stupid how balancing means nerfing instead of empowering. I imagine they don't want to trivialize content, but almost every other MMO just creates new harder content geared towards the stronger players.

[Tgo01]

I always thought it was stupid how balancing means nerfing instead of empowering. I imagine they don't want to trivialize content, but almost every other MMO just creates new harder content geared towards the stronger players.

It really makes no sense.

People complaining about being on the bottom? Well let's just drag those top players down to their level! Everyone is now equal.

People have too much mana? Instead of giving them stuff to use their mana on let's just slap a cooldown on everything.

It's just so lazy and yet is treated as awe-inspiring.

[drumpel]

And don't even get me started how redux is basically just for squares!


My redux mage shows redux can be for wizards, too. He's a very gimped wizard and can only kill things with a weapon, but still....he has been effective up to level 61, has 15% redux and....and....well, he has redux! And he can swing a weapon! Yes, he has redux and he can swing a weapon!

So take that Mr. Reduxisbasicallyjustforsquares.

[Tgo01]

My redux mage shows redux can be for wizards, too. He's a very gimped wizard and can only kill things with a weapon, but still....he has been effective up to level 61, has 15% redux and....and....well, he has redux! And he can swing a weapon! Yes, he has redux and he can swing a weapon!

So take that Mr. Reduxisbasicallyjustforsquares.

I stand corrected. Redux for everyone!

[Mobius1]

You are literally up against people that will take a nerf and thank them for it, because it will make hunting more "challenging." Even though they could have self nerfed themselves if they truly felt that way...

They are freaking obsessed with you having to disable everything before you kill it.

[Izzy]

Why even have these in the game at this point? Functionally they and bolt spells no longer exist for my mid level cleric.

You're misunderstanding. This makes these spells usable in spell sever - this is a good change. This has no effect on the normal self cast versions. Currently, in order to use 211/215/219/506 group spells in HW you have to leave out your other 2 allocated spells. Not 100% uptime obviously, but it's still a net positive

[Archigeek]

SoS is all 3. Loot in HW seems to be better, but the slower combat probably makes other places better silver per hour.

I did pull a +10 Combat Maneuvers bonus pinworn out of a HW box the other day that's probably worth a decent pile though.


That reminds me, selling a +10 CM bonus pinworn



It provides a boost of 10 to Combat Maneuvers Bonus.
This enhancement may not be used by adventurers who have not trained 55 times.
The barrette looks to have a lot of charges remaining.

You sense that the blue starstone barrette will crumble into dust after its last enhancive charge has been expended.

You sense that the blue starstone barrette will disintegrate after its last magical charge has been expended.

10m for the girly looking pinworn.

[Taernath]

You're misunderstanding. This makes these spells usable in spell sever - this is a good change. This has no effect on the normal self cast versions.

Are you sure? Underneath the spells themselves it says "cooldown applies to the target not the caster" implying you can cast it on others multiple times, but what if the target IS the caster? They specify when they refer to the group/lore version elsewhere, but not there.

[Izzy]

Are you sure? Underneath the spells themselves it says "cooldown applies to the target not the caster" implying you can cast it on others multiple times, but what if the target IS the caster? They specify when they refer to the group/lore version elsewhere, but not there.

Yes, those spells when self cast are not "short duration buffs" - they're stackable spells. Any time you cast 215 it just stacks on you, and if you have the lore requirements also gives a short duration buff to the rest of your group members. The caster never receives the short duration buff version. Also they're changing them all to EVOKE for the group short duration versions anyway - the normal cast version is untouched.

[Taernath]

Yes, those spells when self cast are not "short duration buffs" - they're stackable spells. Any time you cast 215 it just stacks on you, and if you have the lore requirements also gives a short duration buff to the rest of your group members. The caster never receives the short duration buff version. Also they're changing them all to EVOKE for the group short duration versions anyway - the normal cast version is untouched.

Good to know, thanks!

[Orthin]

Yes, those spells when self cast are not "short duration buffs" - they're stackable spells. Any time you cast 215 it just stacks on you, and if you have the lore requirements also gives a short duration buff to the rest of your group members. The caster never receives the short duration buff version. Also they're changing them all to EVOKE for the group short duration versions anyway - the normal cast version is untouched.

and was I reading it correctly that they lowered the lore requirement for it to activate?

[Izzy]

and was I reading it correctly that they lowered the lore requirement for it to activate?

Yep, correct

[Tgo01]

These group buff spells are a perfect example of where they could have boosted mana use.

Don't have the lore requirements? The spell costs twice the mana to cast for the group version.

Cast the spell again within a minute of the spell ending? Costs twice the mana to cast again.

Want to get DOUBLE the benefit for the duration of the spell? Again double the mana cost when using this option.

If you don't have the lore requirements then 215 costs 30 mana to cast the group version, casting it within a minute of it wearing off then it costs 60 mana, to cast the super duper buffed up version of it with the previous factors would make it cost 120 mana. All of this is optional but would give players more options to use their mana so they have more choices to make.

But I guess cooldowns are the new way of lazily doing things.

[Realk]

i'm okay with group 211, 115 and stuff.. 140 and 919 get out of here with that bull shit

[Tgo01]

People are actually suggesting a COOLDOWN for SHARING MANA on Discord. I guess the GMs were right: players are actually crying and demanding others be nerfed.

Up next: A 1 minute cooldown every time you move to a new room if you are in a group. Gotta make this game as close to a solo player experience as possible!

[entropy]

140 and 919 get out of here with that bull shit

Quoted for truth. 100% uptime on these spells is the only thing keeping my pure characters from being killed by attrition every time they're clipped with a maneuver. SMRv2 guarantees that happens at least 1 in 20 times, and 5-10% more even for pures that train to mitigate the attacks. What's the message here? Have fun being vulnerable to a one-move KO 66% of the time? It's not a challenge - there's no counter-play - it's just a mandatory speed bump that takes away gameplay for 15-45 minutes while I rez, recover, and spell back up. I'm not against that penalty on death, it's part of the core experience; the problem arises when it's inflicted on an RNG basis and the mitigation tools are gutted.
I'll reiterate: unmitigateable RNG death coupled with significant penalty is not 'challenging,' it's actively anti-player, and it's an inevitable consequence of this cooldown proposal.

This is the core problem in adjusting balance via cooldowns on spells that were not designed with that in mind. Taking this low effort surface-level approach to balance only serves to flatten an otherwise nuanced set of training and mechanical systems, and ends up forcing clunky follow-on effects to ripple through myriad other aspects of the game. A good designer should be modulating powerful spells in a granular way by adding hooks into existing game systems that players can interact with. Players have pointed this out repeatedly, but here I am looking at an expanded list of new cooldowns.


I can't come to a favorable understanding of Estlid's apparent fixation on this difficulty-via-cooldown approach. It's possible, and maybe the best case scenario, that the Peter Principle has left him in a position he's not equipped to deliver on. In that case I'd have hope for him to level up and eventually put some quality work out. I don't think that's the case though, because he's on Discord typing things like, "As a game, we have a higher standard [than fun]." Taking this sanctimonious claptrap at face value (and disregarding the comment would get him laughed out of a GDC summit) I can only assume he's looked at his options and is cognizant of the effects his changes will have. I'll speculate on why he's chosen this path and continues to pursue it: either he understands and wants these effects, or he's being direct to implement them.

Scenario 1: Estlid has direction from leadership (read: Wyrom) to implement this stuff. Leadership's goals are product longevity and profit per user, and to me these speed bumps looks like the former. Part of Estlid's role in this scenario would be taking the heat for what amounts to some pretty unpalatable changes, hence the inflammatory remarks. It's just him drawing fire. You can see this behavior firsthand in any corporate environment, the US House and Senate, and any other group of people with opposing subgroups vying for different outcomes.
Scenario 2: Estlid is operating on his own agenda to elevate his preferred playstyle, but isn't allowed to touch the systems he really wants to. I.e., "These changes are planned for release game-wide eventually," comes with the unspoken caveat, "When I'm finally given authority over the systems I want to change." This tastes like sour grapes.

Not sure which of those I'd prefer to be the case. If S1 is the case the changes are going in no matter what, but they'll be limited to slowing character progression (albeit in an obtuse and frustrating manner). If its S2 management might step in and pull the reigns, but failure to do that leaves a rogue dev running amok, which stands to be far more destructive. I'd like to be wrong and living in some other world with positive, well-considered changes on the horizon, but it doesn't look to me like this timeline has that outcome on offer.

TL;DR - Gemstone IV has a lot going for it but the Skinner box design aesthetic is getting out of hand.

[Hymore246]

The only thing about Divergence that affects my Rogue is the change to 410. With only 30 MnE ranks and no mana control, there is no way I can use it in a normal hunt. In fact, I wonder if 101 ranks of MnE and mana control would even be enough to hunt at cap.

This whole thing makes me wonder about overall profession balance. Estlid said he wanted to push the professions toward the middle but I wonder what the "middle" actually is. Is there even a profession that is "balanced" right now that can be used as a baseline? I've always believed that the more magic a profession has, the stronger it is. So Pure>Semi>Square. This isn't exact but it is pretty close if you were to create a tier list of the professions. Regardless, the biggest problem with pushing stuff towards the middle is the power gap between the "best" profession and the "worst" profession. Trying to bridge that gap is going to involve a lot of nerfs and buffs and I think you can guess which one the GMs prefer.

[Tgo01]

Scenario 2: Estlid is operating on his own agenda to elevate his preferred playstyle, but isn't allowed to touch the systems he really wants to. I.e., "These changes are planned for release game-wide eventually," comes with the unspoken caveat, "When I'm finally given authority over the systems I want to change." This tastes like sour grapes.

I would bet this is all Estild. Sure Wyrom cares about the game making money, that is after all probably the number one priority of his position, but he also seems to care about the game.

Estild really doesn't seem to care about the game. He gets an idea in his head and he wants to make that happen, regardless of the outcome.

Just look at him saying he can't make game decisions based on people quitting the game. I get that mindset TO A POINT, but at some point you HAVE to take that into account. They backed down when nearly the entire player base was against them just randomly renaming critters and spells and towns and shit, so clearly they took take player feedback and people quitting/threatening to quit into account.

He claims to take feedback into account as long as the feedback isn't "this isn't fun" (which....like...why is that not valid feedback?), and yet when they slapped a dumb cooldown on Bless/304 people were giving legit and valid feedback that wasn't just "this isn't fun" and his response was (paraphrasing here but it was damn close to this) "We are happy with the changes to 304/330 and we aren't changing anything."

So yeah. This guy has a gigantic chip on his shoulder and he thinks he can do no wrong, and this attitude of his has just gotten worse in the past couple of years, right around the time the GS Discord opened up...hmm...weird...

I give GS maybe 5 years if he ever becomes the PM. I think Wyrom is the only thing stopping Estild from implementing all of his crazy ideas.

[Tgo01]

The only thing about Divergence that affects my Rogue is the change to 410. With only 30 MnE ranks and no mana control, there is no way I can use it in a normal hunt. In fact, I wonder if 101 ranks of MnE and mana control would even be enough to hunt at cap.

Wait I must have missed this in the Divergence discussion, how is 410 nerfed based on MnE ranks and mana control?


This whole thing makes me wonder about overall profession balance. Estlid said he wanted to push the professions toward the middle but I wonder what the "middle" actually is. Is there even a profession that is "balanced" right now that can be used as a baseline? I've always believed that the more magic a profession has, the stronger it is. So Pure>Semi>Square. This isn't exact but it is pretty close if you were to create a tier list of the professions. Regardless, the biggest problem with pushing stuff towards the middle is the power gap between the "best" profession and the "worst" profession. Trying to bridge that gap is going to involve a lot of nerfs and buffs and I think you can guess which one the GMs prefer.

A big problem with the current crop of GMs trying to make GS more like WoW is combat in GS is usually very quick. You're usually trying to kill a critter in less than 15-20 seconds because many player deaths happen quick; either 1 shotted or stunned/knocked prone and then slowly chipped away until they die, or they receive so many wounds that they can't continue combat anyways. Not always, but this is typically how GS combat works, and this goes for all classes.

They would have to redesign how combat works to make squares actual tanks who can take a beating and keep fighting, then pures could be glass cannons who could blast enemies in a couple of shots but are limited by mana and die very easily, then semis could be somewhere in the middle.

But the game isn't even remotely like that so instead they just want to slap a cooldown on everything and call it a day.

[Methais]

I would bet this is all Estild. Sure Wyrom cares about the game making money, that is after all probably the number one priority of his position, but he also seems to care about the game.

Estild really doesn't seem to care about the game. He gets an idea in his head and he wants to make that happen, regardless of the outcome.

Just look at him saying he can't make game decisions based on people quitting the game. I get that mindset TO A POINT, but at some point you HAVE to take that into account. They backed down when nearly the entire player base was against them just randomly renaming critters and spells and towns and shit, so clearly they took take player feedback and people quitting/threatening to quit into account.

He claims to take feedback into account as long as the feedback isn't "this isn't fun" (which....like...why is that not valid feedback?), and yet when they slapped a dumb cooldown on Bless/304 people were giving legit and valid feedback that wasn't just "this isn't fun" and his response was (paraphrasing here but it was damn close to this) "We are happy with the changes to 304/330 and we aren't changing anything."

So yeah. This guy has a gigantic chip on his shoulder and he thinks he can do no wrong, and this attitude of his has just gotten worse in the past couple of years, right around the time the GS Discord opened up...hmm...weird...

I give GS maybe 5 years if he ever becomes the PM. I think Wyrom is the only thing stopping Estild from implementing all of his crazy ideas.

Wyrom seems pretty hands off when it comes to dev. I have no clue what he actually does behind he scenes, but keeping Estild's retarded ideas in check doesn't seem to be one of them. Which is weird to me because he does seem to genuinely care about the game, much more than these arrogant devtards, and is pretty reasonable about most things. I don't know if he's just out of the loop with what's happening, or if he just doesn't have any real authority to shut down a lot of this stupid shit.


So yeah. This guy has a gigantic chip on his shoulder and he thinks he can do no wrong, and this attitude of his has just gotten worse in the past couple of years, right around the time the GS Discord opened up...hmm...weird...

With Discord being full of people like Donquix sucking on GM asshole 24/7, I wouldn't be surprised if Estild really believes this is the kind of shit the majority wants.

"According to the same handful of retarded sycophants who have been tossing my salad all day every day on Discord for years, these nerfs are fantastic, and we need even more nerfs like mana share cooldowns, so obviously more tedium and less fun is what the majority wants. Btw be sure to check out our brand new mana share cooldown eliminating item at the next Duskruin that we just randomly thought of and has nothing at all to do with the nerfs we just implemented!"

[Tgo01]

With Discord being full of people like Donquix sucking on GM asshole 24/7, I wouldn't be surprised if Estild really believes this is the kind of shit the majority wants.

People were actually suggesting a cooldown on sharing mana. I can't even begin to conceive a worse or more unnecessary change than this, but there they are suggesting it.

Is everyone really so out of ideas that all they can think of now is cooldowns for everything?

[Amerek]

I'm really glad I've kept a sub long enough to see Dev butcher Ascension. People are running around getting 50k+ experience per day in non-Ascension areas, suddenly they are going to think 1000 LTE are worth nerfed abilities and more tedium? Its like they are really trying to create a whole other game and ruin Gemstone, except the one they are creating sucks hard and has zero incentive to play.

Divergence itself is uber retarded and unnecessary, unless you lack the creativity to design monsters that can handle the imaginary items you sell for real world dollars.

[Orthin]

What will the level of backlash be when one of these folks releases in a god auction an item like the Reim boots but for Divergence. The wearer and anyone grouped is no longer subject to divergence.

[Hymore246]

Wait I must have missed this in the Divergence discussion, how is 410 nerfed based on MnE ranks and mana control?.

It is being converted to SMR. You can find the details in the document linked in the first post under the Disablers section. I'll just copy that section below:


Disablers
Spell disablers are being reviewed and will have a lower cast time, lowered mana cost, a maximum duration of 30s, and reviewed for scaling effectiveness.
The document for these changes is pending and will be released when available. These changes will go live game-wide but we want to bring attention to it with this update.

The following is a small list of the changes to hold you over:

Cast RT will be reduced to 2s for single target disables and will remain at 3s for AoE disables.
Mana costs will be cheaper across the board depending on the power of the disabler.
We’re targeting around 5 mana for single target disables and 10 mana for AoEs.
Many spells will be converted to SMR.

The primary success factor depends upon the source:
Native cast: Spell Research ranks
Magic Item: Magic Item Use ranks
Arcane Symbols: Arcane Symbols Ranks

The secondary success factor depends on the spell being cast:
Spell Aiming (for projectiles like webbing)
Mana Control (for effects like the ground shaking)
All roundtime will be converted to Stagger instead.

Some examples:
Elemental Wave (410)
Converted to SMR
Uses Elemental Mana Control as the secondary success factor

Unbalance (110)
Converted to SMR
Uses Spiritual Mana Control as the secondary success factor

Web (118)
Converted to SMR
Uses Spell Aiming as the secondary success factor

It isn't too hard to read between the lines and realize that this change makes 410 unusable for Squares. I highly doubt that 1x MnE and EMC will be enough to get it to work at cap. Rogues especially suffer since this was one of the few crowd control AoE options available to them. So it is better to just write it off as gone and adjust accordingly.

EDIT: These changes also make using certain imbeds from an opposite sphere unlikely to work too. For example, a bolting Wizard would probably be able to use 118 without issue since it uses AS/MIU and SA to figure out success. However, a Cleric trying to use 410 would need not only a lot of AS/MIU but also enough EMC to beat the SMR check. Training in mana share for opposite spheres is really expensive and not worth doing most of the time. I can see this change being really bad for certain playstyles.

[time4fun]

This seems like a lot of coding for a few hunting areas

[beldar17]

estild has lost it.

Can we get Divergence 4.0, the fading out of Estild.

[Dendum]

This seems like a lot of coding for a few hunting areas

He said last night the end goal, and I am assuming the idea is when the kinks are worked out, is a full world rollout


Estild — Yesterday at 11:59 PM
All of Divergence is likely to go game-wide at some time. It’s highly unlikely to happen anytime soon as we want to make other profession changes to the most impacted professions before that happens. There is no timeline if and when that will happen.

[drumpel]

He said last night the end goal, and I am assuming the idea is when the kinks are worked out, is a full world rollout


Estild — Yesterday at 11:59 PM
All of Divergence is likely to go game-wide at some time. It’s highly unlikely to happen anytime soon as we want to make other profession changes to the most impacted professions before that happens. There is no timeline if and when that will happen.

He's pretty much said what I've been thinking and what others have already hinted at.....

Divergence will go game wide, followed by "give us $ to get your anti-divergence items!"

[Tgo01]

Estild:


Most folks are not unhappy with the changes. As someone who reviews feedback and cancellations, it’s definitely not the case.

Is this dude for real? He said this while in the middle of arguing with like a dozen people who were all unhappy with Divergence someday being rolled out gamewide. Not everyone quits the game because they are unhappy with some changes being made, and those who do quit don't always leave a reason as to why they are quitting.

Also LOL at feedback.

Seriously what kind of logic is this?

"Welp! Nobody who quit the game this month cited change XYZ as the reason they quit! I guess 100% of the playerbase is happy with this change!"

Even say 5 people do quit and specifically cite the changes, by this logic he is now assuming that 99% of the playerbase is happy with the change simply because they haven't quit the game yet?

[Mobius1]

Lol, all the tears of people crying about their overpowered skills being nerfed...

I'm not saying their plans are necessarily the best, but I actually agree that a lot of that crap is stupid as it currently works and could use some tweaking.

If you don't think stuff like 1030, 1035, 515, and 950 are broken, you are freaking delusional. But at least you have a change to test it out and give them constructive criticism, as Divergence is basically beta testing changes. Bitching about it and trash talking Estild won't help your cause, that's for damn sure.

[Tgo01]

If you don't think stuff like 1030, 1035, 515, and 950 are broken, you are freaking delusional.

I don't think in addition to 1030 and 1035 being nerfed that failed spellsongs also need to result in mana loss and castRT.

It's like the GMs are actively pissed that people are playing the game in a way they don't like so they are just nerfing the alternative into submission until people play the "right" way.

And 140 and 919 certainly never even appeared on my radar as spells that were "too powerful."

In the context of how spells are supposed to be in power level they aren't really overpowered at all. 140 lasts a whole 90 seconds self cast and 60 seconds cast on someone else, is a level 40 spell and therefore costs 40 mana. That seems perfect.

919 is in a pure profession spell circle which means it is supposed to be a powerful spell, and yet compared to 140 it's really not that powerful because it's a 60 second duration and half the DS for half the mana cost. If anything it needs a buff, but instead it's getting nerfed along with 140.

Their entire rationale is mana is meaningless because people have so much mana regen, and barring that it's because people can share mana. They even claim people have mana battery alts waiting outside of a hunting zone and they will head to this mana battery when they are low on mana.

Even if that's true, who cares? Mana sharing was one of the unique aspects of this game. But now I guess it's too powerful or something.

[Winter]

And 140 and 919 certainly never even appeared on my radar as spells that were "too powerful."

My guess is that they'll be altered to also provide bonus manoeuvre defence otherwise in their current divergence form they'll be just a waste of spell slot. I'm going to guess that most of the changes are still a work in progress.

I think Wizard bolts really need to be looked at especially with the proposed changes to 515, I've been playing my Cleric a lot more recently and their offensive power compared to that of wizard is a little bit silly really.

[Neveragain]

Lol, all the tears of people crying about their overpowered skills being nerfed...

I'm not saying their plans are necessarily the best, but I actually agree that a lot of that crap is stupid as it currently works and could use some tweaking.

If you don't think stuff like 1030, 1035, 515, and 950 are broken, you are freaking delusional. But at least you have a change to test it out and give them constructive criticism, as Divergence is basically beta testing changes. Bitching about it and trash talking Estild won't help your cause, that's for damn sure.

I don't have any skin in this game, mostly because SIMU is pathetic. But, balance doesn't seem to be an issue if you hand SIMU thousands of dollars for items.

[drumpel]

I don't think in addition to 1030 and 1035 being nerfed that failed spellsongs also need to result in mana loss and castRT.

It's like the GMs are actively pissed that people are playing the game in a way they don't like so they are just nerfing the alternative into submission until people play the "right" way.

And 140 and 919 certainly never even appeared on my radar as spells that were "too powerful."

In the context of how spells are supposed to be in power level they aren't really overpowered at all. 140 lasts a whole 90 seconds self cast and 60 seconds cast on someone else, is a level 40 spell and therefore costs 40 mana. That seems perfect.

919 is in a pure profession spell circle which means it is supposed to be a powerful spell, and yet compared to 140 it's really not that powerful because it's a 60 second duration and half the DS for half the mana cost. If anything it needs a buff, but instead it's getting nerfed along with 140.

Their entire rationale is mana is meaningless because people have so much mana regen, and barring that it's because people can share mana. They even claim people have mana battery alts waiting outside of a hunting zone and they will head to this mana battery when they are low on mana.

Even if that's true, who cares? Mana sharing was one of the unique aspects of this game. But now I guess it's too powerful or something.


I proposed on the officials, years ago, probably lost somewhere in the old archived section, on how to boost starting mana for pures and semis.

The idea was to boost starting mana; so instead of having around 20 mana for a pure starting out, they would start with double or just slightly above double that. Semis would get a small boost and squares wouldn't see any change.

Then by the time you hit cap you'd have about as much mana as you would normally have had before my suggested change. However, with the mana changes they pushed out you got a crap load of more mana. Even my warmage that has 53 ranks of HP, he's sitting at 208 mana now (he had around 164 before the mana change). He struggled a bit with mana, but after the change he had more than enough for his hunting needs.

Simu fixed the starting mana issue, but they made it so you had a crap ton more mana at the end. With all that extra mana (coupled with enhancives and ascension) you get so much more back per pulse and keeping up higher mana spells and using more powerful spells for your main attacks is easier than ever.

The GMs keep taking things to the extreme, then complain things are "too easy" or feel certain aspects are out of control due to their inability to manage, so the only way to fix issues they created is to nerf.

Remember when getting weighting and padding had special meaning? That traveling merchant came through or an event like The Juggernaut where you had to actually buy a pre-designed item with padding/weighting? Now you just need to pay a little extra money or dump some silvers to hump the leg of the GMs to add padding/weighting at the blacksmith. Don't get me wrong, I've used the blacksmith myself, I have a few items I enjoy using on a couple of characters....but some people have taken things to the extreme using that system.

Remember when begging for blues was a thing because you needed that extra TD protection? Now you just hit up the invoker or get a few casts of 735 on your armor or shield (or you do everything above).

Remember when begging for mobility when the biggest issues were dodging falling stone creatures or dodging boil earth? Now just hit up the invoker.

Remember when you had to manage how you approached a hunting area based on your profession, what spells you cast and/or beg for? Now you just hit up the invoker and get a buttload of spells, making you pretty much invincible to any AS/DS or CS/TD based attack.

The addition of constant ways to boost AS/DS or CS/TD on weapons/shields/armor with scripts, enchanting or ensorcell has moved people into the realm of having no challenge when out hunting. They had to fix their fuckup, so they shifted to SMRv2. Then finding out that pures were still having too much success, they tanked SMRv2 defense that screwed over pures and even semis some.

They've went about adding new spells that use SMRv2 and now they're looking to converting a few spells to SMRv2 and screwing some classes out of how well the spells will work and also with the crappy the RNG can be, SMR can sometimes be a pain in your ass as your spells constantly hit negative rolls and when the creature's constantly hit open rolls.

Now that the GMs screwed the mana and want a way to curtail how much folks can use high mana spells.


It's just a repeating circle. They overcorrect an issue and then pull things back in too far, then they overcorrect and pull things back too far. They don't take the time to properly find a happy medium and when folks complain about the unnecessary nerfs the GMs get butthurt and defensive, instead of actually listening to everyone and trying to understand where the problem is.

I don't know if there is a good way to fix things other than getting GMs that want to work on finding better, more creative ways to fix their fuckups, instead of nerfing spells and causing tedium throughout the game.

[Methais]

Lol, all the tears of people crying about their overpowered skills being nerfed...

I'm not saying their plans are necessarily the best, but I actually agree that a lot of that crap is stupid as it currently works and could use some tweaking.

If you don't think stuff like 1030, 1035, 515, and 950 are broken, you are freaking delusional. But at least you have a change to test it out and give them constructive criticism, as Divergence is basically beta testing changes. Bitching about it and trash talking Estild won't help your cause, that's for damn sure.


You are literally up against people that will take a nerf and thank them for it, because it will make hunting more "challenging." Even though they could have self nerfed themselves if they truly felt that way...

They are freaking obsessed with you having to disable everything before you kill it.

The problem is if Rapid Fire gets nerfed, bolts need to be buffed significantly and be made interesting to use. And just as importantly, that needs to happen at the same time Rapid Fire gets nerfed, instead of nerf now fix (maybe) later like Simu usually does. Most other wizard combat spells don't really matter as far as RT goes. Other spells like Immolate need some sort of buff, but casting faster immolates isn't the answer to that.

It's possible the eventual wizard review could make this entire argument irrelevant, but based on Simu's track record, I have zero reason to keep my expectations any higher than rock bottom. They're obsessed with making combat as slow and boring and tedious as possible, all while trying to compare GS to shit like WoW. Except what they always fail to realize is that graphical games have actual visuals and animations to see during combat vs. simply watching stupid RT counters tick down until some more lines of text come across the screen, plus you're usually actively moving around too. Which to me, either means Estild is really really stupid, or he thinks (knows) that the majority of the player base, at least on the Discord echo chamber, which is all that matters to them as far as feedback is concerned, is really really stupid. Probably the latter.

Imagine playing WoW but the only thing you could see was the combat log. They also seem to "forget" that there a lot of instant spells in WoW that can be chained together too, often with synergy that results in huge damage, often with short cooldowns that are measured in seconds instead of minutes.

Bolting in its current form without Rapid Fire is like one step above playing a OHE/shield non-ambush build and just spamming ATTACK until something dies. Still think it's stupid as fuck that we can't aim bolts with CHANNEL, and the current version of CHANNEL is trash and has no reliability at all. 3 seconds of hard RT in offensive is a reasonable tradeoff for aiming bolts.

Non-combat spells in general, for all professions, should have reduced base RT just for QoL reasons. But knowing Simu, they probably think spelling up a little faster is OP too.



I don't have any skin in this game, mostly because SIMU is pathetic. But, balance doesn't seem to be an issue if you hand SIMU thousands of dollars for items.

This is correct. I can almost guarantee that once all these nerfs they have planned are finished, there will be at least one item at DR that directly offsets some of it.

[Mobius1]

I don't have any skin in this game, mostly because SIMU is pathetic. But, balance doesn't seem to be an issue if you hand SIMU thousands of dollars for items.

I don't necessarily agree with all the changes, but they are at least using the platform as a testing grounds, so there's likely hope that things can be tweaked if they are too heavy handed.

But when people that run bigshot MA crews come and say that things are less "fun" because of these changes, that's a load of BS. It may actually be true, but coming from THEM it's laughable, as you don't actually hunt for real to have "fun." And as some of you try to say, your "fun" is trying to get your scripts working, then technically speaking divergence should be giving you MORE fun! Lol

You know what ruined GS more than any pay to win? Bigshot. Simu should have nipped it in the bud and banned it the moment it was released, but it's too late now, and has infected the game so deeply it can't be fixed anymore. It's a God damn cancer, but it's now beyond stage 4, so literally most the people I'm talking to here are a bunch of cancer bigshotters. But hey, maybe making things more difficult helps, and Divergence at least is working toward making scripting harder.

[drumpel]

I don't necessarily agree with all the changes, but they are at least using the platform as a testing grounds, so there's likely hope that things can be tweaked if they are too heavy handed.

But when people that run bigshot MA crews come and say that things are less "fun" because of these changes, that's a load of BS. It may actually be true, but coming from THEM it's laughable, as you don't actually hunt for real to have "fun." And as some of you try to say, your "fun" is trying to get your scripts working, then technically speaking divergence should be giving you MORE fun! Lol

You know what ruined GS more than any pay to win? Bigshot. Simu should have nipped it in the bud and banned it the moment it was released, but it's too late now, and has infected the game so deeply it can't be fixed anymore. It's a God damn cancer, but it's now beyond stage 4, so literally most the people I'm talking to here are a bunch of cancer bigshotters. But hey, maybe making things more difficult helps, and Divergence at least is working toward making scripting harder.


So just because you feel only folks that find the changes unfun are the ones that run bigshot?

I don't. I find being slowed down as tedious as fuck. Stand around as a pure, hoping you don't get tagged with SMR abilities as you're in some kind of constant cooldown is shitty.

Or if I have to try and put up my "powerful, helpful spells", hunt for about 30-60 seconds and then go and hide in a safe zone for a couple of minutes while I wait for everything to cooldown so I can continue my hunt.....that's just shitty, too.

There are better ways deal with how much the GMs fucked things up over forcing cooldowns on spells.

[Neveragain]

I don't necessarily agree with all the changes, but they are at least using the platform as a testing grounds, so there's likely hope that things can be tweaked if they are too heavy handed.

But when people that run bigshot MA crews come and say that things are less "fun" because of these changes, that's a load of BS. It may actually be true, but coming from THEM it's laughable, as you don't actually hunt for real to have "fun." And as some of you try to say, your "fun" is trying to get your scripts working, then technically speaking divergence should be giving you MORE fun! Lol

You know what ruined GS more than any pay to win? Bigshot. Simu should have nipped it in the bud and banned it the moment it was released, but it's too late now, and has infected the game so deeply it can't be fixed anymore. It's a God damn cancer, but it's now beyond stage 4, so literally most the people I'm talking to here are a bunch of cancer bigshotters. But hey, maybe making things more difficult helps, and Divergence at least is working toward making scripting harder.

Why is it too late to ban bigshot?

Seems it would be a hell of a lot easier to do that than code a whole new system.

[Orthin]

Aiming bolts should absolutely be a thing. all weapons can be can aim at a location and shit even 708 can do. I never understood why that function for bolting didn't exist.

[Mobius1]

So just because you feel only folks that find the changes unfun are the ones that run bigshot?

I don't. I find being slowed down as tedious as fuck. Stand around as a pure, hoping you don't get tagged with SMR abilities as you're in some kind of constant cooldown is shitty.

Or if I have to try and put up my "powerful, helpful spells", hunt for about 30-60 seconds and then go and hide in a safe zone for a couple of minutes while I wait for everything to cooldown so I can continue my hunt.....that's just shitty, too.

There are better ways deal with how much the GMs fucked things up over forcing cooldowns on spells.

If people are dying in droves because of this, disproportionately to other classes, I'm sure things could be tweaked. Are they really?

Which spells do you specifically think don't deserve a nerf (that are slated to be), and should remain working as they do now? And why do the GMs feel they need tweaking?


Why is it too late to ban bigshot?

Seems it would be a hell of a lot easier to do that than code a whole new system.

Because at this point it might literally kill Gemstone. Scripters are now the majority of players.

And don't get me wrong, I don't blame scripters or MAers for taking advantage of it. I blame Simu and only Simu, for not putting the kebosh on it. If someone wants to take advantage of it, I don't blame them, as it's basically a part of the game now. It's just bloody unfortunate.

Granted, it IS annoying as hell that I have to bring my bard with me on bandits, so I don't get KSed several times per hunt as a stealther, because of shortcomings in bigshot and other scripts.

[Mobius1]

Aiming bolts should absolutely be a thing. all weapons can be can aim at a location and shit even 708 can do. I never understood why that function for bolting didn't exist.

Because you'd wreck everything in 1 second. The whole damage tables would need to be altered for this to happen. It's certainly an idea worth exploring though, if you ask me. My biggest worry, as a rogue, is you'd step on the toes of the ONE thing we are good at.

[Alashir]

Because you'd wreck everything in 1 second. The whole damage tables would need to be altered for this to happen. It's certainly an idea worth exploring though, if you ask me. My biggest worry, as a rogue, is you'd step on the toes of the ONE thing we are good at.

1) After PSM I don't think it's fair to argue that aiming spells takes away the ONE thing rogues are good at; they've been fleshed out quite a bit.

2) What about aiming spells but adding in hard cast RT? Same 3s but now it's hard.

[drumpel]

If people are dying in droves because of this, disproportionately to other classes, I'm sure things could be tweaked. Are they really?

Which spells do you specifically think don't deserve a nerf (that are slated to be), and should remain working as they do now? And why do the GMs feel they need tweaking?



Because at this point it might literally kill Gemstone. Scripters are now the majority of players.

And don't get me wrong, I don't blame scripters or MAers for taking advantage of it. I blame Simu and only Simu, for not putting the kebosh on it. If someone wants to take advantage of it, I don't blame them, as it's basically a part of the game now. It's just bloody unfortunate.

Granted, it IS annoying as hell that I have to bring my bard with me on bandits, so I don't get KSed several times per hunt as a stealther, because of shortcomings in bigshot and other scripts.


None of the spells do. The spells work just fine. It's just easier for them to nerf a spell than to be creative. GMs feel they need tweaking because they broke how the game was supposed to be handled after the shift to GSIV.

They took a way a lot so they could better balance the game between professions. Over the years they've given back so much more and than some that we're back in the GSIII days; players have access to every other spell, players have magnificent weapons/armor/shields of DOOM with all the padding/weighting/scripts/flares, they added ascension that allows people to expand their skills beyond what the game was designed for.....

The easy way out is to just nerf spells for how the game is played.

No one cares if you play a rogue. If you feel rogues are behind other classes in killing speed/power, then rogues should be brought up and not everyone else brought down. I've taken a rogue to level 55 and even when he was 2.6x in hiding and had maxed out that CMAN that used to be tied to reducing RT he had issues hiding and staying hidden. Creatures constantly found him or spotted him trying to hide. The few times I tried to do bandits....you can't do them sneaking. These are things that should be fixed. I'm sure there are other issues more frequent rogue players could come up with, but I haven't played my rogue for a couple of years because these things irritated me enough to turn me away from them.

Bigshot or scripting shortcomings aren't your problem, even if people weren't using them. Some people don't give a rip and just hit whatever is in the room when they walk in. I constantly get people coming as I'm hunting, work on clearing the room and then go, "Oh...sorry. I didn't see you. Sorry." and they run off.

Fixing issues for professions that make them less than desirable to hunt with is what should be the focus so those professions come up to par with the other ones, it shouldn't be nerf down all other professions to bring them down to the hunting level/speed of a few professions.

[Neveragain]

Because at this point it might literally kill Gemstone. Scripters are now the majority of players.

It's only SIMU's fault for making the game so unbearable that the only way it can be tolerated is through automation.

[Methais]

Because you'd wreck everything in 1 second. The whole damage tables would need to be altered for this to happen. It's certainly an idea worth exploring though, if you ask me. My biggest worry, as a rogue, is you'd step on the toes of the ONE thing we are good at.

CHANNEL


It's only SIMU's fault for making the game so unbearable that the only way it can be tolerated is through automation.

Which Divergence is going to make even worse. The more tedious things become, the more reason people have to run scripts instead.

I often hunt "manually" which mostly consists of running ;wander and then spamming macros until stuff is dead. This still feels engaging to me with 1 second cast RT. With 2 seconds, it's tedious as fuckall and just makes me want to run my script all the time instead.

[Neveragain]

GMs feel they need tweaking because they broke how the game was supposed to be handled after the shift to GSIV.

I specifically remember one of the selling points of GS4 was that anything over +20 was going to be extremely rare.

[Methais]

I specifically remember one of the selling points of GS4 was that anything over +20 was going to be extremely rare.

https://i.imgur.com/P9tZT6K.png

[Viekn]

I specifically remember one of the selling points of GS4 was that anything over +20 was going to be extremely rare.

This thought isn't specific to the Divergence discussion, but in regards to what you said about what was supposed to happen with +20 in the move to GS4 and there obviously being plenty of gear over +20 now (lets be honest, 6x is fairly easy to get now) and also making sure development is being done in the right areas:

Thought...
Why does Gemstone even start out at level 0 anymore, where...
- you have to deal with 0x stuff or consistently moving to/having to buy 1x/2x/3x over a short time span of time just until you get to level 10,
- where either you're short on mana (yes I know 1700 is free but 5s hard RT for spell casting blows), or your CS or AS is low, and DS is extremely low in comparison to critters and you're basically forced to get a Dreavening/Invoker if you don't want a high risk of dying.

Just give everyone the ability to hold 4x gear as soon as you start and start people off with the ability to have enough spell knowledge for a decent CS to hunt with or the ability to inherently have enough DS and AS to start with without significant help from spells. The whole race to level 10 so you can get set up with 4x gear is pointless I think.

[Mobius1]

1) After PSM I don't think it's fair to argue that aiming spells takes away the ONE thing rogues are good at; they've been fleshed out quite a bit.

2) What about aiming spells but adding in hard cast RT? Same 3s but now it's hard.

I just don't think the current system is balanced if you can aim spells. Sure, hard RT would be a potential fix, but physical attacks have other things they have to deal with besides hard RT, like armor. Also, would you have to train ambush or combat maneuvers to aim?

As for rogue balance, I'm not even trying to bring that into this. Rogues are underrated and I don't think we really need anything changed other than very very minor gripes I have (like environs in the rift). Just because scrubs make my class look bad doesn't mean we actually are. But even so, I don't necessarily want to see our class diminished by some other class moving in on our turf. Rangers already do that enough as it is.

[drumpel]

This thought isn't specific to the Divergence discussion, but in regards to what you said about what was supposed to happen with +20 in the move to GS4 and there obviously being plenty of gear over +20 now (lets be honest, 6x is fairly easy to get now) and also making sure development is being done in the right areas:

Thought...
Why does Gemstone even start out at level 0 anymore, where...
- you have to deal with 0x stuff or consistently moving to/having to buy 1x/2x/3x over a short time span of time just until you get to level 10,
- where either you're short on mana (yes I know 1700 is free but 5s hard RT for spell casting blows), or your CS or AS is low, and DS is extremely low in comparison to critters and you're basically forced to get a Dreavening/Invoker if you don't want a high risk of dying.

Just give everyone the ability to hold 4x gear as soon as you start and start people off with the ability to have enough spell knowledge for a decent CS to hunt with or the ability to inherently have enough DS and AS to start with without significant help from spells. The whole race to level 10 so you can get set up with 4x gear is pointless I think.


I think it was Naos (could be wrong, going from memory) at one point said he wanted to adjust how enchanted items were handled by level since, as you even mentioned, folks blow through the first 10-20 level so fast that 1-3x items are pretty much non-existent in terms of use. But, to do something like that a rebalance would probably have to be done for creatures AS/DS. I doubt it will ever change, but I know that one of the GMs at one point in time wanted to - he didn't go into any details, just said he had ideas to fix it.


I think the weapon system should revamped and handled correctly - move all the stupid weapon skills that require you to either run a script or spam more buttons to get reactive skills (such as Overpower) to trigger. These should happen automatically or allow you to turn the automatic use off if you don't want to use them. A lot of weapons needs DF, AvD and RT adjustments (up and/or down) and then tying special weapon skills to individual types of weapons would give them their own personality so people aren't just looking at the best DF or what weapon does crush better for those rank 5 head kills.

I just wish the staff would stop looking to slow things down because that's how they think balance works.

[Gelston]

This thought isn't specific to the Divergence discussion, but in regards to what you said about what was supposed to happen with +20 in the move to GS4 and there obviously being plenty of gear over +20 now (lets be honest, 6x is fairly easy to get now) and also making sure development is being done in the right areas:

Thought...
Why does Gemstone even start out at level 0 anymore, where...
- you have to deal with 0x stuff or consistently moving to/having to buy 1x/2x/3x over a short time span of time just until you get to level 10,
- where either you're short on mana (yes I know 1700 is free but 5s hard RT for spell casting blows), or your CS or AS is low, and DS is extremely low in comparison to critters and you're basically forced to get a Dreavening/Invoker if you don't want a high risk of dying.

Just give everyone the ability to hold 4x gear as soon as you start and start people off with the ability to have enough spell knowledge for a decent CS to hunt with or the ability to inherently have enough DS and AS to start with without significant help from spells. The whole race to level 10 so you can get set up with 4x gear is pointless I think.

I think they should just let anyone of any level hold anything, just with the bonus only maxing out at their level x2. You level 4 with a 10x weapon? Cool, but you're getting +8 from it. Next level you get +10 and so on up until level 25 where you get the full bonus.

[Winter]

I think they should just let anyone of any level hold anything, just with the bonus only maxing out at their level x2. You level 4 with a 10x weapon? Cool, but you're getting +8 from it. Next level you get +10 and so on up until level 25 where you get the full bonus.

That's a really great idea, it would be fantastic if enhancives also worked this way. I haven't played WoW since 2009 but didn't they have items that you could give to your new characters that worked like this?

[entropy]

I think the weapon system should revamped and handled correctly - move all the stupid weapon skills that require you to either run a script or spam more buttons to get reactive skills (such as Overpower) to trigger. These should happen automatically or allow you to turn the automatic use off if you don't want to use them. A lot of weapons needs DF, AvD and RT adjustments (up and/or down) and then tying special weapon skills to individual types of weapons would give them their own personality so people aren't just looking at the best DF or what weapon does crush better for those rank 5 head kills.

These are great suggestions. Elegant in their simplicity but with significant, and wholly positive, impact on gameplay. The first one's a massive QoL improvement and frees players up to make more interesting decisions in combat, second one serves to improve weapon variety and introduce unique playstyles and rp at the same time.

[Realk]

Also, would you have to train ambush or combat maneuvers to aim?

ffs, how did i somehow know that you'd find a way to whine about rogues.. by the way the skill is literally called spell aim.

[Mobius1]

ffs, how did i somehow know that you'd find a way to whine about rogues.. by the way the skill is literally called spell aim.

Yet somehow you can't aim where it hits. Interesting how me training in my weapon skill doesn't do a thing to improve my aim. Let's just give it to wizards for free though.

And how am I whining about rogues? Please explain.

[Realk]

I don't necessarily want to see our class diminished by some other class moving in on our turf


My biggest worry, as a rogue, is you'd step on the toes of the ONE thing we are good at

class is dismissed now

[Mobius1]

class is dismissed now

That is not whining about rogues. That's not wanting other classes to be more like rogues.

The fact that being more like a rogue is where people want to go with wizards is at least quite flattering though. You want invis to work on critters too? And how about they improve 407/408 while they're at it, so you can easily open all of your boxes?

Wizards have been at the top for how many years? I for one don't mind seeing them brought down a peg. Not that I am advocating for it, as I'm not just trying to get people nerfed, nor do I really care all that much. But I certainly won't shed a tear for you if it happens. I look at spells like 950 and 550 and laugh that such things were ever even created, they are so beyond stupid. It's about time wizards lose their "I win" buttons.

[Realk]

That is not whining about rogues. That's not wanting other classes to be more like rogues.

The fact that being more like a rogue is where people want to go with wizards is at least quite flattering though. You want invis to work on critters too? And how about they improve 407/408 while they're at it, so you can easily open all of your boxes?

we already do open 95 percent of our boxes that way... the point is that you say we are full of tears whilst complaining about rogues not getting much love.

If you didn't like it fixprof or do whatever it is you want to do. A)you made the choice to be what you are .. B) Your very vocal about wanting rogue change even though your build is non typical and you are proud of that .. C) you havent made a valid point why any of these proposed changes make sense except yay Rogues.

[Mobius1]

we already do open 95 percent of our boxes that way... the point is that you say we are full of tears whilst complaining about rogues not getting much love.

Where did I complain that rogues aren't getting much love? I said no such thing. In fact I very clearly said the opposite.

[Realk]

Where did I complain that rogues aren't getting much love? I said no such thing. In fact I very clearly said the opposite.


Midgar since you have been back I loathe having to read your statements because it's always the same complaint about rogues. If you want me to research discord and here i'll do it tomorrow tuesdays are slow. But I wouldn't want to step on your professions toes by coming back with aimed attacks.

[Mobius1]

Midgar since you have been back I loathe having to read your statements because it's always the same complaint about rogues. If you want me to research discord and here i'll do it tomorrow tuesdays are slow. But I wouldn't want to step on your professions toes by coming back with aimed attacks.

Lol, you triggered by me arguing with Naijin and all his brown nosers over environs? It's mostly become a thing just because certain rogues try to claim it's no big deal, who don't even hunt plane 4.

But that's mostly just a quality of life thing for me. Kind of like how vvrael destroyers are a quality of life thing for you.

But yeah man, sit here and waste your time arguing with me because of some weird personal vendetta while your class gets WASTED. Smart

[Hightower]

I don't necessarily agree with all the changes, but they are at least using the platform as a testing grounds, so there's likely hope that things can be tweaked if they are too heavy handed.

But when people that run bigshot MA crews come and say that things are less "fun" because of these changes, that's a load of BS. It may actually be true, but coming from THEM it's laughable, as you don't actually hunt for real to have "fun." And as some of you try to say, your "fun" is trying to get your scripts working, then technically speaking divergence should be giving you MORE fun! Lol

You know what ruined GS more than any pay to win? Bigshot. Simu should have nipped it in the bud and banned it the moment it was released, but it's too late now, and has infected the game so deeply it can't be fixed anymore. It's a God damn cancer, but it's now beyond stage 4, so literally most the people I'm talking to here are a bunch of cancer bigshotters. But hey, maybe making things more difficult helps, and Divergence at least is working toward making scripting harder.


I haven't played GS in years in part because it favors automation (i.e. Bigshot), multi-account play, and is obscenely P2W. On the other hand, even though I never engaged in any of that I strongly disagree with the idea of slowing down the combat in this game. If that's what we mean by "moving toward the middle", I think it's a mistake. The only way combat in this game feels at all engaging is if you're forced to make choices rapidly. You can't do that with a 5 second RT and the game designed around that slow of a pace necessitates low-impact outcomes (e.g. the relative invincibility of squares). I realize faster gameplay may favor some of the elements I dislike such as Bigshot and MA, but we're also not getting rid of those elements by making the combat slower, more predictable, and more attrition-based. That's just a recipe for boring gameplay, in my opinion.

I look at it as similar to the way I'd compare attrition-based gameplay such as you see in MMOs like WoW/FFXIV to action combat MMOs. Attrition-based gameplay involves standing in place trading hits until you or your opponent's health reaches zero. It tends to be slower and more predictable. Meanwhile, action combat is defined by the ability to actively avoid damage (e.g. dodging out of the way or timing parries and blocks). Enemies attack faster and hit harder with the idea that with proper timing you can avoid much of the damage. I much prefer action combat for this reason. It feels far more fun and impactful.

It isn't a perfect analogy, but I see squares in GS4 as more similar to the attrition model while pures tend more toward the action model. You're more vulnerable to a quick death as a pure, but you're also faster at doling it out. I don't think slowing pures down is generally the answer. Faster, more varied gameplay is preferred. Instead of meeting in the middle by slowing things down, they should be adding skills to squares and speeding the gameplay up.

~Taverkin

[Mobius1]

Oh for sure, don't get me wrong. Boosting other classes is almost always better.

And quite frankly I don't think Naijin plays squares to their best potential, so I think his viewpoint is more skewed because of that as well (Granted, they do have statistics on all the classes, which may or may not be relevant. ). Squares aren't so bad off these days, to be honest.

I do get why a little tweaking is desired though. It's hard to boost every other class when only a handful of things are off a bit. I can't speak for the need of all of the changes though, as some things seem a little heavy handed for stuff that wasn't a big deal.

Also, one other thing, is fun and fast aren't necessarily one and the same. As an example, sooo many rogues I chat with on Discord love all the different setup moves as they claim it makes combat more fun for them, even though I feel it's generally slowing combat down for them. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Clearly they are striving for a new meta of having to rely on setup moves, based on this latest proposal.

[Tgo01]

Here's just an idea I had off the top of my head as to how they can buff squares without fucking over pures and semies.

First of all lower the training cost of MoC for Rogues (no idea why it's so expensive compared to other squares) and allow them to 2x in it, which means they would no longer need 1.5x phantom ranks for crossbows and thrown weapons. Okay so now we have something squares can do that no other class can do; naturally 2x in MoC.

Great. So give bonuses to people who have naturally trained higher than 101 ranks in MoC. Maybe at 150 ranks the square has a special move they can use on opponents assuming there is only 1 critter in the room, maybe an AS and DS boost, a boost to SmR defense, a boost to CMAN attack rolls, shit like that, and at 200 ranks these bonuses get a boost and the bonuses apply to the square if there are 1 or 2 critters in the room.

I just solved world hunger. Give me my prize.

[Tgo01]

Here's just an idea I had off the top of my head as to how they can buff squares without fucking over pures and semies.

First of all lower the training cost of MoC for Rogues (no idea why it's so expensive compared to other squares) and allow them to 2x in it, which means they would no longer need 1.5x phantom ranks for crossbows and thrown weapons. Okay so now we have something squares can do that no other class can do; naturally 2x in MoC.

Great. So give bonuses to people who have naturally trained higher than 101 ranks in MoC. Maybe at 150 ranks the square has a special move they can use on opponents assuming there is only 1 critter in the room, maybe an AS and DS boost, a boost to SmR defense, a boost to CMAN attack rolls, shit like that, and at 200 ranks these bonuses get a boost and the bonuses apply to the square if there are 1 or 2 critters in the room.

I just solved world hunger. Give me my prize.

They can do something similar for Ambush too. Only squares and Rangers can 2x in Ambush, rather than nerfing Rangers because of stupid reasons, give Ambush some more boosts if the person naturally has more than 101 ranks in it. I mean shit, go ahead and make it so anyone with 230+ ranks of Ambush and 230+ ranks of their weapon skill (meaning only squares and Rangers can do it) can swing weapons 1 second faster, even being able to lower their RT below the lowest RT possible for their weapon, so they could naturally swing a lance in 4 seconds for example.

But again that requires planning and time and coding. Cooldowns require no planning or thinking and little to no time to code. Cooldowns for all spells it is!

[Realk]

If that is the case, why cant wizards 3x spell aim... we can enchant your stuff to 8-9-10x armor two enough cm to add 1 as every time you go up... but a bolt stops somewhere around 480.... without enhansives despite the best gear...

tell me a single way to bolster my bolt attacks.. to even be close to a square. then you can tell me how 919 is an unfair advantage.

[Tgo01]

tell me a single way to bolster my bolt attacks.. to even be close to a square. then you can tell me how 919 is an unfair advantage.

Nerfing 919 is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have seen.

The GMs seem to be throwing out long traditions: a spell's power is determined by these factors: higher level spells cost more mana and thus are more powerful (duh), spells in pure circles are the most powerful, spells in semi circles are next, spells in major circles are next, and finally spells in minor circles, also in addition to all that, short duration spells are more powerful than long duration spells.

Now they are like yeah but...19 mana isn't really all that much anymore to a 30+ million experience wizard...plus like mana batteries....yeah we gotta slap a cooldown on 919.

Even though 1035 is a level 35 spell in a semi spell circle and only lasts 60 seconds, which means it better be damn powerful...yeah no. Gotta nerf that shit.

[Realk]

Nerfing 919 is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have seen.

The GMs seem to be throwing out long traditions: a spell's power is determined by these factors: higher level spells cost more mana and thus are more powerful (duh), spells in pure circles are the most powerful, spells in semi circles are next, spells in major circles are next, and finally spells in minor circles, also in addition to all that, short duration spells are more powerful than long duration spells.

Now they are like yeah but...19 mana isn't really all that much anymore to a 30+ million experience wizard...plus like mana batteries....yeah we gotta slap a cooldown on 919.

Even though 1035 is a level 35 spell in a semi spell circle and only lasts 60 seconds, which means it better be damn powerful...yeah no. Gotta nerf that shit.


lets not forget that they encouraged us all go 303 emc so we get more mana back faster... like wtf

[Tgo01]

lets not forget that they made us all go 303 emc so we get more mana back faster... like wtf

I'm sure slapping a 3 minute cooldown on cmans is next.

"Well when we first created cmans people were only getting back like 20 stamina a pulse, now people can get 150 stamina a pulse. Clearly cooldowns are the way."

[Realk]

It's about time wizards lose their "I win" buttons.

who forced your hand to pick rogue on the character roller... I can wait

[Amerek]

What exactly are this "fixes" supposed to accomplish? It's not like thousands of players are lining up for Estild's nerf-fest

[Gelston]

That's a really great idea, it would be fantastic if enhancives also worked this way. I haven't played WoW since 2009 but didn't they have items that you could give to your new characters that worked like this?

It kind of already exists for weapon bonuses. There was a bug where you could get enchanted/magic metal stuff off pawnshop tables that you usually couldn't hold, and the bonus would max out at your level x 2.

[Orthin]

Yet somehow you can't aim where it hits. Interesting how me training in my weapon skill doesn't do a thing to improve my aim. Let's just give it to wizards for free though.

And how am I whining about rogues? Please explain.

I would say the equivalent to weapon skill would be learning the spell and the ambush of aiming for spells would be spell aiming. Which is funny given it’s name that it has zero effect on actual spell aiming. You could also tie it to controls too if you felt so inclined but it could easily exist.

[Gelston]

I would say the equivalent to weapon skill would be learning the spell and the ambush of aiming for spells would be spell aiming. Which is funny given it’s name that it has zero effect on actual spell aiming. You could also tie it to controls too if you felt so inclined but it could easily exist.

it 100% effects the aiming of the spell, you're just thinking too small. MAybe they should rename it "spell aiming at that general direction".

[Orthin]

it 100% effects the aiming of the spell, you're just thinking too small. MAybe they should rename it "spell aiming at that general direction".


prep 901
aim "general location"
cast rat

Boom!

[Methais]

Yet somehow you can't aim where it hits. Interesting how me training in my weapon skill doesn't do a thing to improve my aim. Let's just give it to wizards for free though.

And how am I whining about rogues? Please explain.

Suggesting that wizards train in ambush in order to aim bolts is like suggesting that rogues should train in Elemental Lore in order to ambush.

[Gelston]

Suggesting that wizards train in ambush in order to aim bolts is like suggesting that rogues should train in Elemental Lore in order to ambush.

That is a great idea. Forwarding to Estild.

[Methais]

That is not whining about rogues. That's not wanting other classes to be more like rogues.

The fact that being more like a rogue is where people want to go with wizards is at least quite flattering though. You want invis to work on critters too? And how about they improve 407/408 while they're at it, so you can easily open all of your boxes?

Wizards have been at the top for how many years? I for one don't mind seeing them brought down a peg. Not that I am advocating for it, as I'm not just trying to get people nerfed, nor do I really care all that much. But I certainly won't shed a tear for you if it happens. I look at spells like 950 and 550 and laugh that such things were ever even created, they are so beyond stupid. It's about time wizards lose their "I win" buttons.

It's really more akin to a ranged class aiming from the open than it is a rogue ambushing from hiding. Are those classes stepping on your toes too? Is anyone that can aim an attack stepping on rogues' toes? Or would that only apply if wizards were able to aim bolts? Keep in mind that if we got that ability, it would almost definitely come at a heavy price full of nerfs in other areas and overall it would probably be a net loss for wizards' damage output, since Rapid Fire would definitely not work with it.

Most wizards don't give a shit about 950 or 550 btw. They're cool and all that, but I rarely use either one and they shouldn't be relied on.

How would wizards, or anyone really, "being brought down a peg" benefit you anyway? Wouldn't having rogues brought up to that same level be much better?

Pure Bards > wizards btw.

[Methais]

Nerfing 919 is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have seen.

The GMs seem to be throwing out long traditions: a spell's power is determined by these factors: higher level spells cost more mana and thus are more powerful (duh), spells in pure circles are the most powerful, spells in semi circles are next, spells in major circles are next, and finally spells in minor circles, also in addition to all that, short duration spells are more powerful than long duration spells.

Now they are like yeah but...19 mana isn't really all that much anymore to a 30+ million experience wizard...plus like mana batteries....yeah we gotta slap a cooldown on 919.

Even though 1035 is a level 35 spell in a semi spell circle and only lasts 60 seconds, which means it better be damn powerful...yeah no. Gotta nerf that shit.

GS is gonna suck hardcore for people who truly play solo and have no alts.

[Methais]

it 100% effects the aiming of the spell, you're just thinking too small. MAybe they should rename it "spell aiming at that general direction".

Casting Tonis Bolt like

https://31.media.tumblr.com/8b9888847b83fe4abae950e3ec8a2a42/tumblr_mgowsmuHcL1s2ofm8o1_r1_500.gif

[Methais]

That is a great idea. Forwarding to Estild.

Ambush.............................| 201 101


WHERE ARE MY AIMED BOLTS ESTILD!?!?!?

[Mobius1]

Suggesting that wizards train in ambush in order to aim bolts is like suggesting that rogues should train in Elemental Lore in order to ambush.

I didn't even mention ambush, so no.


It's really more akin to a ranged class aiming from the open than it is a rogue ambushing from hiding. Are those classes stepping on your toes too? Is anyone that can aim an attack stepping on rogues' toes? Or would that only apply if wizards were able to aim bolts? Keep in mind that if we got that ability, it would almost definitely come at a heavy price full of nerfs in other areas and overall it would probably be a net loss for wizards' damage output, since Rapid Fire would definitely not work with it.

Most wizards don't give a shit about 950 or 550 btw. They're cool and all that, but I rarely use either one and they shouldn't be relied on.

How would wizards, or anyone really, "being brought down a peg" benefit you anyway? Wouldn't having rogues brought up to that same level be much better?

Pure Bards > wizards btw.

I did say that it would be better if things didn't have to be nerfed. If you've heard what I've been saying over the last few weeks, I'm actually against Divergence! But yeah, as I said, it doesn't mean I'll cry because of it - The reality is that it WILL make the game more balanced, and I do see where the GMs are coming from on this. Also, after hearing their claims, it's not as if they are being crazy and unreasonable. Again, I don't agree with it, but the fact that they are wanting to test it out, and pour over the statistical data and hear feedback, shows that they are genuine in what they are trying to do, and aren't just trying to slam everyone with nerfs to meet their personal agendas.

And yeah, 1030 is obscenely strong - Probably the strongest single spell in the entire game for hunting. That's why it's also on the Divergence list.

As for wizards aiming bolts? The whole point of divergence is to balance wizards and other classes, not take away one OP thing and give them something else to make up for it. Then what's the point of even having Divergence? Also, Divergence is not just nerfs, as it's buffing set up spells.

I guess you could say that Divergence will nerf me in one way, in that I use song of Tonis (which can actually be a 2 minute duration, as it is in my case.). But killing critters in 1 second like I can? Yeah, that's OP for sure and when it's nerfed I totally understand why.

[Gelston]

Ambush.............................| 201 101


WHERE ARE MY AIMED BOLTS ESTILD!?!?!?

it unlocks at 140 ranks. Better get some enhancives.

[Hightower]

I didn't even mention ambush, so no.



I did say that it would be better if things didn't have to be nerfed. If you've heard what I've been saying over the last few weeks, I'm actually against Divergence! But yeah, as I said, it doesn't mean I'll cry because of it - The reality is that it WILL make the game more balanced, and I do see where the GMs are coming from on this. Also, after hearing their claims, it's not as if they are being crazy and unreasonable. Again, I don't agree with it, but the fact that they are wanting to test it out, and pour over the statistical data and hear feedback, shows that they are genuine in what they are trying to do, and aren't just trying to slam everyone with nerfs to meet their personal agendas.

And yeah, 1030 is obscenely strong - Probably the strongest single spell in the entire game for hunting. That's why it's also on the Divergence list.

As for wizards aiming bolts? The whole point of divergence is to balance wizards and other classes, not take away one OP thing and give them something else to make up for it. Then what's the point of even having Divergence? Also, Divergence is not just nerfs, as it's buffing set up spells.

I guess you could say that Divergence will nerf me in one way, in that I use song of Tonis (which can actually be a 2 minute duration, as it is in my case.). But killing critters in 1 second like I can? Yeah, that's OP for sure and when it's nerfed I totally understand why.

"Balance" is a matter of perspective and, in my opinion, Estild's perspective (and yours) is broken. Like I said, the only way combat can be enjoyable in this game is if they speed it up. Instead of slowing pures down to the glacial pace of squares, they should be finding ways to speed up their archaic weapon skill system. 5 seconds should not be the baseline. Arguably, 3 seconds is too slow given that the game has never moved away from RT as a global cooldown.

Consider an MMO like FFXIV. It has a very slow (by industry standards) GCD of 2.5 seconds. At lower levels players have very little access to skills that are off-cooldown (i.e. effects that can be used during the global cooldown). Later on this opens up a bit and players are kept busy utilizing skills between cooldowns. In GS-speak, this would be like having skills and procs that can occur while in RT.

Rather than thinking of 5 seconds of inaction as a proper baseline, they should be thinking of ways to keep players busy during that time. 3 seconds would be a better baseline, with ways of reducing that RT and introducing skills and procs that can be used during RT. In my opinion, rapid fire wizards are an example of this game doing it right. Where they get it wrong is not applying cooldowns to the meat-and-potatoes skills to avoid spam gameplay wherein players benefit from repeating the same skill over and over most of the time. We should be thinking faster, with more varied skills. Not slower so players sit in RT and watch combat play out while they're unable to do anything about it.

[Mobius1]

"Balance" is a matter of perspective and, in my opinion, Estild's perspective (and yours) is broken. Like I said, the only way combat can be enjoyable in this game is if they speed it up. Instead of slowing pures down to the glacial pace of squares, they should be finding ways to speed up their archaic weapon skill system. 5 seconds should not be the baseline. Arguably, 3 seconds is too slow given that the game has never moved away from RT as a global cooldown.

Consider an MMO like FFXIV. It has a very slow (by industry standards) GCD of 2.5 seconds. At lower levels players have very little access to skills that are off-cooldown (i.e. effects that can be used during the global cooldown). Later on this opens up a bit and players are kept busy utilizing skills between cooldowns. In GS-speak, this would be like having skills and procs that can occur while in RT.

Rather than thinking of 5 seconds of inaction as a proper baseline, they should be thinking of ways to keep players busy during that time. 3 seconds would be a better baseline, with ways of reducing that RT and introducing skills and procs that can be used during RT. In my opinion, rapid fire wizards are an example of this game doing it right. Where they get it wrong is not applying cooldowns to the meat-and-potatoes skills to avoid spam gameplay wherein players benefit from repeating the same skill over and over most of the time. We should be thinking faster, with more varied skills. Not slower so players sit in RT and watch combat play out while they're unable to do anything about it.

Honestly, it seems like the direction they are trying to take things currently, is going towards disablers and such. HW for obvious reasons, but in the Atoll, you have critters that will deflect your bolts so you need to disable them first. There's critters that will disarm you with Brace, and have slippery mind - all reasons to disable them first. And of course Psionicists that can ward most players easily with mental CS, so most disable them asap. The Divergence changes are trying to make disablers more effective for casters, so it's clear they are wanting to try that out and see how it affects combat.

I think that for many people, having to adapt to critters, use disablers, employ strategies, etc., is potentially more fun, like you mentioned with not simply repeating the same skills. I really don't think using 515 is a requirement for fun.

Also, as for Estild's perspective being broken? They have statistics of how every single class is doing, and how they compare to each other. I'd say they have a better perspective than most of us even realize. To be pushing nerfs like this, knowing all the pushback they will get because of it, makes me wonder what the statistics are that they are seeing, that is driving them to this.

Again, I still would rather not see Divergence implemented. And even as a rogue, I think the imbalances are pretty overblown. I think squares are in a pretty good place now. But I also don't have access to the data that the GMs do, so I only have what little data Naijin has spilled about it (Where bards were still coming in at #1 in HW even after Divergence, and Wizards were up there, and funny enough rogues were at the bottom.)

[drumpel]

That is not whining about rogues. That's not wanting other classes to be more like rogues.

The fact that being more like a rogue is where people want to go with wizards is at least quite flattering though. You want invis to work on critters too? And how about they improve 407/408 while they're at it, so you can easily open all of your boxes?

Wizards have been at the top for how many years? I for one don't mind seeing them brought down a peg. Not that I am advocating for it, as I'm not just trying to get people nerfed, nor do I really care all that much. But I certainly won't shed a tear for you if it happens. I look at spells like 950 and 550 and laugh that such things were ever even created, they are so beyond stupid. It's about time wizards lose their "I win" buttons.

The problem when people like you show support to the GMs when they decide to nerf things down for one or more classes because they're better at stuff then other classes is stupid.

You should be looking at the GMs and saying, "Stop. It's a bad move. You should be working on bring up the classes that lack in parity, not nerfing classes."

Don't ever give the GMs a nod of recognition when it comes to their ideas about nerfing things for any class. You are part of the problem if you're not telling them to stop.

[Orthin]

"Balance" is a matter of perspective and, in my opinion, Estild's perspective (and yours) is broken. Like I said, the only way combat can be enjoyable in this game is if they speed it up. Instead of slowing pures down to the glacial pace of squares, they should be finding ways to speed up their archaic weapon skill system. 5 seconds should not be the baseline. Arguably, 3 seconds is too slow given that the game has never moved away from RT as a global cooldown.

Consider an MMO like FFXIV. It has a very slow (by industry standards) GCD of 2.5 seconds. At lower levels players have very little access to skills that are off-cooldown (i.e. effects that can be used during the global cooldown). Later on this opens up a bit and players are kept busy utilizing skills between cooldowns. In GS-speak, this would be like having skills and procs that can occur while in RT.

Rather than thinking of 5 seconds of inaction as a proper baseline, they should be thinking of ways to keep players busy during that time. 3 seconds would be a better baseline, with ways of reducing that RT and introducing skills and procs that can be used during RT. In my opinion, rapid fire wizards are an example of this game doing it right. Where they get it wrong is not applying cooldowns to the meat-and-potatoes skills to avoid spam gameplay wherein players benefit from repeating the same skill over and over most of the time. We should be thinking faster, with more varied skills. Not slower so players sit in RT and watch combat play out while they're unable to do anything about it.

One of my favorite characters to play is my monk for this reason. at MAX my RT for a single action is 4 seconds. My openers/disablers are 2-3 seconds max and 3 of my 4 main attacks are either 2 seconds (jab) or 3 seconds (punch/grapple). At worst if I want to speed up my over all hunt I just mstrike the target which hits 3 times (currently) at 7 seconds versus my pally who swings 1 time with a 2HW in 6.

I love hunting and mixing it up with my monk but also in order to level in this game you are talking 100s of hours of repetition and those seconds add up. I get the game isn't all about your level but for folks that do want to level up it is pretty painful if you have to go 15-20 minutes per hunt. So if you are capped and grinding skill points would you prefer 6 minutes and chilling or 15-20 minutes and chilling. Me I am choosing 6 minutes over 15-20.

I also don't have as many pains as pures do when it comes to combat. Sure my TD blows as a monk and less so as a pally but my monk can throatchop pretty much anything I face with regularity. If I could though once we get to instant melt critters or strong casters that is a tough route to overcome. Not to mention charge absolutely wrecking any of my pures where as monk maybe might get hit but won't really impact me. There are a great deal of instant action attacks and WTF opens that seem to say "you better kill me now or else you will be hanging out for 45 minutes re-spelling".

[Mobius1]

The problem when people like you show support to the GMs when they decide to nerf things down for one or more classes because they're better at stuff then other classes is stupid.

You should be looking at the GMs and saying, "Stop. It's a bad move. You should be working on bring up the classes that lack in parity, not nerfing classes."

Don't ever give the GMs a nod of recognition when it comes to their ideas about nerfing things for any class. You are part of the problem if you're not telling them to stop.

I've done nothing but oppose Divergence on Discord when speaking with the GMs.

But I also admit that they have compelling arguments. I think it makes sense to test out a bunch of changes using Divergence. Nothing is set in stone yet, and almost certainly a lot of things will be tweaked, fine tuned, and potentially not even nerfed after all. I think that's better than them simply nerfing everything outright.

[Methais]

I didn't even mention ambush, so no.

Sure you did:


I just don't think the current system is balanced if you can aim spells. Sure, hard RT would be a potential fix, but physical attacks have other things they have to deal with besides hard RT, like armor. Also, would you have to train ambush or combat maneuvers to aim?



I did say that it would be better if things didn't have to be nerfed. If you've heard what I've been saying over the last few weeks, I'm actually against Divergence! But yeah, as I said, it doesn't mean I'll cry because of it - The reality is that it WILL make the game more balanced, and I do see where the GMs are coming from on this. Also, after hearing their claims, it's not as if they are being crazy and unreasonable. Again, I don't agree with it, but the fact that they are wanting to test it out, and pour over the statistical data and hear feedback, shows that they are genuine in what they are trying to do, and aren't just trying to slam everyone with nerfs to meet their personal agendas.

I don't disagree with the general idea, at least the buffing other professions part. It's their execution of it that will be a disaster, at least if their track record is anything to go by.


As for wizards aiming bolts? The whole point of divergence is to balance wizards and other classes, not take away one OP thing and give them something else to make up for it. Then what's the point of even having Divergence? Also, Divergence is not just nerfs, as it's buffing set up spells.

I'd prefer to bolt in the current form than to aim bolts and be stuck in hard RT. Aimed bolts via CHANNEL would still be a net nerf for wizards if it came at the expense of Rapid Fire, which it would. Anything that makes combat slower will make hunting more boring to me.

None of this really matters anyway though, because Estild's doubled down so many times against aiming bolts that his ego would prevent him from changing his mind at this point, no matter how much it might make sense as part of the inevitable wizard review, depending on how trashed everything is by the time that rolls around.


I guess you could say that Divergence will nerf me in one way, in that I use song of Tonis (which can actually be a 2 minute duration, as it is in my case.). But killing critters in 1 second like I can? Yeah, that's OP for sure and when it's nerfed I totally understand why.

The problem is combat has been like this for decades and a lot of people have been playing the same characters/builds for the entire time and are quite content with it. They (Simu) can't just uproot that and turn everything upside down and expect people to not have a problem with it, especially with their dev track record. They'll do it anyway because they're arrogant, but it's not going to have the results they think it will because the creativity to pull it off correctly just isn't there. I'd love to be wrong about everything.

Most issues could be addressed on the critter side of things instead of swinging the nerf bat around all over the place and making combat slower and more tedious/boring. But it would require a lot of creativity too. It's much easier in to just nerf some numbers and add cooldowns and other unimaginative tedium adding things, etc.

[Mobius1]

Sure you did:

Ahh, you're right, I forgot I had said that. But I wasn't intending to say Wizards should have to train ambush! That's why it was a question, mostly intended to point out that physical attacks require training a separate skill for aiming.



I don't disagree with the general idea, at least the buffing other professions part. It's their execution of it that will be a disaster, at least if their track record is anything to go by.



I'd prefer to bolt in the current form than to aim bolts and be stuck in hard RT. Aimed bolts via CHANNEL would still be a net nerf for wizards if it came at the expense of Rapid Fire, which it would. Anything that makes combat slower will make hunting more boring to me.

None of this really matters anyway though, because Estild's doubled down so many times against aiming bolts that his ego would prevent him from changing his mind at this point, no matter how much it might make sense as part of the inevitable wizard review, depending on how trashed everything is by the time that rolls around.

I'll apologize for the way I responded in my one post about wizard tears. Honestly a lot of that was just me reacting to Realk's post. But admittedly it's been a breath a fresh air to see many classes struggling in Atoll, when I am absolutely thriving there and haven't died a single time. It's hard to not feel that way as a square main, who has been at the bottom for so many years past. You can't blame me for deep inside being happy about it! But admittedly I was way too insensitive with how I spoke.

Also, after hearing Naijin's reasoning when he responded to me in Discord, made me at least understand and admit that some of my reason for being opposed to Divergence was unfounded. Still, I actually don't want it. Wizards already were nerfed before and I don't want them to be nerfed again (Even if my feelings on it are a bit mixed.).

At least none of this stuff is set in stone. I'm not sure if it will help, but perhaps if more wizards hunt in divergence areas, if can give the GMs more data to see that the nerfs are too much.

As for aimed bolts, I think I did say earlier that I think it's worth exploring. My comments against it were simply that it's not something so simple, and would need to take a lot of things into consideration to be balanced.



The problem is combat has been like this for decades and a lot of people have been playing the same characters/builds for the entire time and are quite content with it. They (Simu) can't just uproot that and turn everything upside down and expect people to not have a problem with it, especially with their dev track record. They'll do it anyway because they're arrogant, but it's not going to have the results they think it will because the creativity to pull it off correctly just isn't there. I'd love to be wrong about everything.

Most issues could be addressed on the critter side of things instead of swinging the nerf bat around all over the place and making combat slower and more tedious/boring. But it would require a lot of creativity too. It's much easier in to just nerf some numbers and add cooldowns and other unimaginative tedium adding things, etc.

I don't know. I feel like sometimes the nerf bat is the only good way. Me killing things in 1 second with Tonis is absurd, and I just don't see any defending it. Just because someone has abused it for so many years, doesn't mean it should continue. It's like bandits at KF. I was one of the people doing them, but I 100% agree with them putting a stop to it, as it was ridiculous. They are ruining my fun? That's just an excuse to try and keep overpowered or broken things.

[Methais]

I think that for many people, having to adapt to critters, use disablers, employ strategies, etc., is potentially more fun, like you mentioned with not simply repeating the same skills. I really don't think using 515 is a requirement for fun.

They were kind of on the right track with tap/stomp Tremors. That's a good example of a disabler that doesn't slow down combat, since when you TAP/STOMP to cause the tremor, it has 0 RT. So a macro like TAP\R INCANT 917\R has fun results. I forgot how many charges Tremors has, but it's a pretty good amount, and it stays pre-loaded for its duration.

That's the kind of thing they should be looking at if they're wanting to go heavy on disablers in combat. 909 is proof that it can be done without slowing shit down and forcing people to stare at RT counting down. Having to cast 909, wait 3 seconds, and then follow up with 917 or whatever would be slow, boring, and mostly ineffectual garbage.

I did see them mention something about possibly reducing RT for disabler spells. If so, most if not all disablers should take no longer than 1 second. But 2 seconds is still better than the current 3.

They could also adjust Rapid Fire to base its cast RT on what spell is being cast, i.e. spamming RF Immolate isn't going to be as fast as spamming RF 906, etc.

Rapid Fire is a total crutch for wizard bolts. It's a very effective crutch, but it's still a crutch, because overall, bolts suck, and that's the underlying issue wizards have been plagued with forever. For the most part, Rapid Fire is only overpowered when other professions use it.

[Mobius1]

They were kind of on the right track with tap/stomp Tremors. That's a good example of a disabler that doesn't slow down combat, since when you TAP/STOMP to cause the tremor, it has 0 RT. So a macro like TAP\R INCANT 917\R has fun results. I forgot how many charges Tremors has, but it's a pretty good amount, and it stays pre-loaded for its duration.

That's the kind of thing they should be looking at if they're wanting to go heavy on disablers in combat. 909 is proof that it can be done without slowing shit down and forcing people to stare at RT counting down. Having to cast 909, wait 3 seconds, and then follow up with 917 or whatever would be slow, boring, and mostly ineffectual garbage.

I did see them mention something about possibly reducing RT for disabler spells. If so, most if not all disablers should take no longer than 1 second. But 2 seconds is still better than the current 3.

They could also adjust Rapid Fire to base its cast RT on what spell is being cast, i.e. spamming RF Immolate isn't going to be as fast as spamming RF 906, etc.

Rapid Fire is a total crutch for wizard bolts. It's a very effective crutch, but it's still a crutch, because overall, bolts suck, and that's the underlying issue wizards have been plagued with forever. For the most part, Rapid Fire is only overpowered when other professions use it.

Well, I admittedly understand why they aren't giving an instant disabler, as the way the game currently is, other classes spend like 2-5 seconds on theirs. Most squares use stuff like warcry, feint, sweep, subdue, eviscerate, ewave, etc., to be able to successfully hunt. All of those have RT/CT (Obviously a lot of non-squares do too.). But they are trying to reduce the CT to make it be less slow for casters.

Actually, one of the ways I try to help rogues improve their combat, is getting them to try making small weapons work, without disablers, to speed things up considerably. Funny enough, a large amount of rogues don't like that and prefer to use setups and such (Granted, this is probably a large reason why we are rated at the bottom! :D).

Also, I think it should be mentioned, that we have no idea what else is in the pipeline. There has been a lot of chatter about changing or moving spells, as well as whatever HW secret carrot is being worked on, and also Archetypes. Who knows what other plans they have.

Another thing that I have been harping on in Discord, is Spell Sever. It feels like 2 steps forward and one step back with warriors/rogues, because of that. Either you have a butt ton of spell ranks, or you are screwed. It's way worse than Divergence IMO, and especially isn't fair to lower XP characters. Spell Sever is basically "Get spells, get KS, or get screwed." It's certainly going to be harder for them to achieve balance, if they are freaking nerfing most squares with Spell Sever. I had proposed that they change it so that you can wear your class' spells with enough training in AS/MIU/HP, etc., like the other spellburst areas. So like a Spell Sever/Spellburst hybrid.

EDIT: I also hate how people say they should just boost other classes instead of nerfing, when a lot of those same people openly oppose boosts that are suggested to those classes.

[Methais]

Well, I admittedly understand why they aren't giving an instant disabler, as the way the game currently is, other classes spend like 2-5 seconds on theirs. Most squares use stuff like warcry, feint, sweep, subdue, eviscerate, ewave, etc., to be able to successfully hunt. All of those have RT/CT (Obviously a lot of non-squares do too.). But they are trying to reduce the CT to make it be less slow for casters.

Actually, one of the ways I try to help rogues improve their combat, is getting them to try making small weapons work, without disablers, to speed things up considerably. Funny enough, a large amount of rogues don't like that and prefer to use setups and such (Granted, this is probably a large reason why we are rated at the bottom! :D).

Also, I think it should be mentioned, that we have no idea what else is in the pipeline. There has been a lot of chatter about changing or moving spells, as well as whatever HW secret carrot is being worked on, and also Archetypes. Who knows what other plans they have.

Another thing that I have been harping on in Discord, is Spell Sever. It feels like 2 steps forward and one step back with warriors/rogues, because of that. Either you have a butt ton of spell ranks, or you are screwed. It's way worse than Divergence IMO, and especially isn't fair to lower XP characters. Spell Sever is basically "Get spells, get KS, or get screwed." It's certainly going to be harder for them to achieve balance, if they are freaking nerfing most squares with Spell Sever. I had proposed that they change it so that you can wear your class' spells with enough training in AS/MIU/HP, etc., like the other spellburst areas. So like a Spell Sever/Spellburst hybrid.

At this point I don't know what they're planning to do, and I'm not so sure that they have any idea either.

This was sent to me by someone else and I don't know if there's additional context or what, especially since a couple messages seem to be out of order, but I'm too lazy to go find this conversation in Discord to pull it.


Estild — Today at 11:18 AM
No spells are being moved. Nor are we going to down tweak existing spells/characters to meet our desired goal. We will continue to evaluate new spells/abilities as avenue to encourage (not require) more diversified spell training.

Estild — Today at 11:25 AM
I have. Numerous times. You can search Discord to pull up the reasoning. Every profession should have a reason to diversify. We're not going to make changes to decrease that - wizards are the ideal goal, not the other way around.

__________________

@A⌋姆ìℜ ��
In other words you have zero interest in making things equal.

Estild — Today at 11:19 AM
Correct.

A⌋姆ìℜ ��
I think this is where you suggest we write to feedback if we have issues with your bad design.

Estild — Today at 11:21 AM
If you think it's worthwhile, certainly.

A⌋姆ìℜ ��
If you're not going to make changes to decrease that, why aren't you in favor of making changes that increase it for spiritualists?

Estild — Today at 11:27 AM
I am. Not all changes have to meet that goal though, nor are we going to down tweak to encourage it.

Estild — Today at 11:30 AM
Anyhow, enough time has been spent on this topic. There's definitely more important issues to address.


The main one that has me confused is:

Estild — Today at 11:18 AM
No spells are being moved. Nor are we going to down tweak existing spells/characters to meet our desired goal. We will continue to evaluate new spells/abilities as avenue to encourage (not require) more diversified spell training.



I mean...isn't down tweaking existing spells what they're literally doing right now?

[Mobius1]

At this point I don't know what they're planning to do, and I'm not so sure that they have any idea either.

This was sent to me by someone else and I don't know if there's additional context or what, especially since a couple messages seem to be out of order, but I'm too lazy to go find this conversation in Discord to pull it.




The main one that has me confused is:

Estild — Today at 11:18 AM
No spells are being moved. Nor are we going to down tweak existing spells/characters to meet our desired goal. We will continue to evaluate new spells/abilities as avenue to encourage (not require) more diversified spell training.



I mean...isn't down tweaking existing spells what they're literally doing right now?

Yeah, I don't get what he meant by that. But without seeing the whole conversation that could be largely out of context. Also the fact that Alastir was insulting him might not have helped matters much.

[nocturnix]

I would like to test out some of the bard changes but I've never hunted in these areas. Any suggestions?

[Methais]

I would like to test out some of the bard changes but I've never hunted in these areas. Any suggestions?

It's available on the test server still if I'm not mistaken.

Map: https://gswiki.play.net/images/f/f0/Hinterwild_Map_by_Alosaka.jpg

Anything else noteworthy should be here: https://gswiki.play.net/Category:Hinterwilds_creatures

[Mobius1]

So here's Divergence 3.0:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kN-1Of1A8HvgERjNQdBrXpQGk-SH72q4gqja9dkp33I/edit#

Looks like they listened to our suggestions in Discord to raise the floor.

Naijin posted swinging 2 daggers in 4 seconds, and 2 handaxes in 5 seconds. So it looks like most, maybe even all melee weapons will be able to have more of their RT trained off with Agi/Dex. I assume aiming RT can still only be trained down to 1 second though, so 3 second dagger ambushes instead of the old 4, etc..

[Fleur-de-me]

"As a game, we have a higher standard [than fun]." - Estlid

Enough said.

[Dendum]

The volley nerf is rough...
To the point I dont think I can use the skill anymore.
Glad to see the melee buff though.

[Methais]

https://i.imgur.com/fYGgEE3.png

[Realk]

I'm wondering what that sign was supposed to say.. at first i thought pints but their beer is cheap .. then i thought apps.. I dunno nothing i can think of leads to piss

[Asha]

So as a capped rogue who specced into doubles and ewave I suppose I'll go back into plate and forget ewave.
BUT then Naijin seems to think a rogue should wear doubles and have penalties for plate.

Ugh

[Stanley Burrell]

I'm wondering what that sign was supposed to say.. at first i thought pints but their beer is cheap .. then i thought apps.. I dunno nothing i can think of leads to piss

Word, I'm looking at it, WTF is Mackenzie Lease and what does it have to do with that golden archer dude, right!?

[Gaius2745ml49]

Athena and some of the pagan Greek Gods are said to have had yellow eyes. Wether this is true is a question best left to scholars and historians.

[Neveragain]

"As a game, we have a higher standard [than fun]." - Estlid

https://www.zikoko.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/okay-then.gif

[Neveragain]

So here's Divergence 3.0:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kN-1Of1A8HvgERjNQdBrXpQGk-SH72q4gqja9dkp33I/edit#

Looks like they listened to our suggestions in Discord to raise the floor.

Naijin posted swinging 2 daggers in 4 seconds, and 2 handaxes in 5 seconds. So it looks like most, maybe even all melee weapons will be able to have more of their RT trained off with Agi/Dex. I assume aiming RT can still only be trained down to 1 second though, so 3 second dagger ambushes instead of the old 4, etc..

The old new 4 that used to be 3 that they changed to 4 because 3 was too overpowered.

Basically, they are gaslighting.

[Gaius2745ml49]

Either it's actually piss or yellow eyes.

[Mobius1]

The old new 4 that used to be 3 that they changed to 4 because 3 was too overpowered.

Basically, they are gaslighting.

Am I missing something? When was it 3?

[Stanley Burrell]

Word, I'm looking at it, WTF is Mackenzie Lease and what does it have to do with that golden archer dude, right!?

Oh yeah person-who-repped me: You're right, they're bagpipes, not arrows.

Carry on.

[WRoss]

Oh yeah person-who-repped me: You're right, they're bagpipes, not arrows.

Carry on.

I expected more out of you.

[Neveragain]

Am I missing something? When was it 3?

Back when it was GS3 daggers had a 3 second ambush. Most rogues ambushed with a war sword/falchion base which was a 5 second ambush. They basically added 1 second to ambush round times when they switched to GS4, that's also when they added diminishing returns to targeted ambush.

Rogues probably got the biggest nerf bat out of all the professions when they changed to GS4.

[Mobius1]

Back when it was GS3 daggers had a 3 second ambush. Most rogues ambushed with a war sword/falchion base which was a 5 second ambush. They basically added 1 second to ambush round times when they switched to GS4, that's also when they added diminishing returns to targeted ambush.

Rogues probably got the biggest nerf bat out of all the professions when they changed to GS4.

In GS3 a dagger ambush was worthless. Because weapons had crit divisors associated with them, pretty much any weapon lighter than falchions/handaxes were utter crap.

In my opinion GS4 was a a buff for rogues, not a nerf, as GS4 removed the crit divisors from weapons, making it possible to succeed with smaller weapons. It added crit randomization, but you overcome that by simply having enough AS. Also, in GS3 you usually either had to wait for the critter to attack, sweep it, or ewave it, before you could get your 115+ end roll to kill it. But with the stance pushdown ambush now has, I'd say that it was a better deal. If you get a rank 9 crit, you still guarantee the kill, and you don't need to have a setup move like in GS3. Of course, it did take some adjusting for many.

Whatever the case, rogues were not killing in 3 seconds in GS3. A dagger could kill jack diddly squat back then, even if it was masterfully crit weighted.

Now, if you want to talk about nerfs, let's talk about EBP. I would give up EBP in .01 seconds if I could, if it meant critters could no longer do it. Us getting EBP was a two edged sword, and not a good thing for us. But I can't remember if EBP came out with GS4 or if it came after. It's been too damn long now...

[Gelston]

In GS3 a dagger ambush was worthless. Because weapons had crit divisors associated with them, pretty much any weapon lighter than falchions/handaxes were utter crap.

In my opinion GS4 was a a buff for rogues, not a nerf, as GS4 removed the crit divisors from weapons, making it possible to succeed with smaller weapons. It added crit randomization, but you overcome that by simply having enough AS. Also, in GS3 you usually either had to wait for the critter to attack, sweep it, or ewave it, before you could get your 115+ end roll to kill it. But with the stance pushdown ambush now has, I'd say that it was a better deal. If you get a rank 9 crit, you still guarantee the kill, and you don't need to have a setup move like in GS3. Of course, it did take some adjusting for many.

Whatever the case, rogues were not killing in 3 seconds in GS3. A dagger could kill jack diddly squat back then, even if it was masterfully crit weighted.

Now, if you want to talk about nerfs, let's talk about EBP. I would give up EBP in .01 seconds if I could, if it meant critters could no longer do it. Us getting EBP was a two edged sword, and not a good thing for us. But I can't remember if EBP came out with GS4 or if it came after. It's been too damn long now...

I'm about 99% sure it came with GS4.

[Neveragain]

In GS3 a dagger ambush was worthless. Because weapons had crit divisors associated with them, pretty much any weapon lighter than falchions/handaxes were utter crap.

In my opinion GS4 was a a buff for rogues, not a nerf, as GS4 removed the crit divisors from weapons, making it possible to succeed with smaller weapons. It added crit randomization, but you overcome that by simply having enough AS. Also, in GS3 you usually either had to wait for the critter to attack, sweep it, or ewave it, before you could get your 115+ end roll to kill it. But with the stance pushdown ambush now has, I'd say that it was a better deal. If you get a rank 9 crit, you still guarantee the kill, and you don't need to have a setup move like in GS3. Of course, it did take some adjusting for many.

Whatever the case, rogues were not killing in 3 seconds in GS3. A dagger could kill jack diddly squat back then, even if it was masterfully crit weighted.

Now, if you want to talk about nerfs, let's talk about EBP. I would give up EBP in .01 seconds if I could, if it meant critters could no longer do it. Us getting EBP was a two edged sword, and not a good thing for us. But I can't remember if EBP came out with GS4 or if it came after. It's been too damn long now...

I agree that daggers were shit.

I haven't played in almost 2 years and highly doubt I ever play again. It's just too fucking boring.

[Methais]

Some formatting might be a little off, but here's how it's going:




Gillien
I probably also won’t be spending this DR if dev mentality is “nothing is safe”

Meb — 08/08/2022
Same Sir.

Leafiara — 08/08/2022
My letter literally includes an anecdote about how I put 200k bloodscrip into bows and crossbows and am now trying to unload 135k of it.

@Leafiara
I'm writing to feedback. It's not done yet!

Meb — 08/08/2022
We

Lormaek — 08/08/2022
we

Lormaek
just sell them a 20k item that doesnt work in new areas

@Meb
You mean you don't want to spend 20 to retain 2? AND have it not work?

Lormaek — 08/08/2022
I look back fondly on that time I bought a car and was told if I drove it on any newer roads it would brick itself

Lormaek — 08/08/2022
it would be fairly financially disastrous if every sector of the spenders were angered

Alastir — 08/08/2022
Look at how greedy they're getting
EG is now DR
Maybe if some of you stopped spending so much they would reevaluate what is important

Yakushi — 08/08/2022
that is because they need to make up the less spending at DR

Gillien — 08/08/2022
that's actually the goal

Lormaek — 08/08/2022
we're literally talking about not spending any more if its not re-evaluated...

Lormaek — 08/08/2022
everything I needed to know I learned in kindergarten. Dont hurt people and dont take their stuff
they get really mad

Alastir — 08/08/2022
This is literally what everyone is saying.
You just think because you spend more money that it shouldn't apply to you

Lormaek — 08/08/2022
No, I think ill stop spending money

Alastir — 08/08/2022
I think everyone should consider doing that.

Leafiara — 08/08/2022
That I'll agree on.

Dhairn — 08/08/2022
Naijins nerfs are all with the best interest of GS future in mind. I've been in agreement with every one of them.

Gillien — 08/08/2022
...it's just that it feels... sometimes... and I hesitate to say this, but he comes across as the kind of person who enjoys the personal anguish he inflicts on those who he nerfs
i said it
i can't take it back

Gillien — 08/08/2022
so in other words, for him, it is personal

Gillien — 08/08/2022
or at least he comes across that way

Lormaek — 08/08/2022
The problem is the road to hell is paved with good intentions
@Precious Altheren
This is so much. I wonder if anyone will actually read it. :p

Lormaek — 08/08/2022
maybe if a score of us all ping wyrom...

Precious Altheren — 08/08/2022
You do it first :p

Lormaek — 08/08/2022
dare me?

Precious Altheren — 08/08/2022
Yes

Lormaek — 08/08/2022
@Wyrom I was dared by @Precious Altheren to let you know that @Meb and I started a kerfuffle


Lormaek — 08/08/2022
how is it already 10:30 and we still havent managed to summon an employee (adult)

Amerek — 08/08/2022
Who needs future content when your player base leaves the game?

HebrewToYou ✡️ — 08/08/2022
Simutronics is playing a dangerous game here

HebrewToYou ✡️ — 08/08/2022
People are already very upset about the EG change

Lormaek — 08/08/2022
I buy a car only to be told the manufacturer will brick it if i drive it on any newer road. That is messing with my gear no matter how edgy you want to be

Amerek
"Wyrom" isn't a guarantee, he is an employee that could leave at any time.

Lormaek — 08/08/2022
I also dont recall getting any assurances for that matter lol

Queatus — 08/08/2022
Ask him

Lormaek — 08/08/2022
I have... many many times

Tikba — 08/08/2022
typically the people in, like, the angriest channel on the discord are not actually the core spending bloc, but a LOT of things that are true of other games are not true of gemstone

Tikba — 08/08/2022
this might actually be the cartel

Azanoth — 08/05/2022
This is a fair point... I have a few friends who are planning on sitting out this DR due to concerns about divergence. I have not been able to convince them otherwise.

Queatus — 08/08/2022
This EG thing, all the stuff in the shops will be for event currency?

Dendum — 08/08/2022
yes


Marstreforn — 08/08/2022
Why are you telling me I'm wrong about an event I literally worked for months on? Anyway...


HebrewToYou — 08/08/2022
I think dev staff is trying to solve a problem by pulling all the levers at their disposal

HebrewToYou — 08/08/2022
the product managers job is to take away some of those levers

HebrewToYou — 08/08/2022
divergence is only a problem because product management allows dev to focus on game balance

HebrewToYou — 08/08/2022
product management could easily say: STOP TRYING TO BALANCE THE GAME

Alastir
Wyrom has a hands off approach

HebrewToYou — 08/08/2022
and this is the problem
Wyrom is not actively managing the product - I think he's a swell guy, but there are major problems that are going unchecked

Tikba — 08/08/2022
I think a hands off approach is good in the general case, but you need to put your hands on some stuff, like dissatisfied spenders
and yes I could have phrased that differently but chose not to

HebrewToYou — 08/08/2022
I think Product Management is unable to manage the expectations of their development team


Wyrom — Today at 5:35 AM
Give me your (collective your) top 3 concerns with divergence. Take some time to talk about it. Tag me when you have a final list. Anyone who just tags me with their personal 3 concerns is not what I'm after and will likely slow down the process of me trying to take that back and talk with staff about it.





Someone put together a general player feedback document too:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nKvrG4qggN2XgNW1B6M2QcMlCnELRhMLrM3CxpTWAjE/edit#

[Mobius1]

Man, I hope the whales don't win over game balance. This whole "Game balance doesn't matter" thing is crazy!

The main problem is they keep releasing crap out of greed, that they never should have released!

I'm not unsympathetic to people that bought stuff that gets nerfed. Hell, even I have experienced it with stuff I have purchased in the past! But I am not going to ask them to remove those changes, as they were a very good thing for the game overall. It can't be a reason to complete stop balancing changes. At best there should be compromise.

In fact, in my experience, it's almost always them improving things in game and not nerfs that tend to devalue existing items.

It's a difficult position to be in, and Simu has no one to blame but themselves. I do hope some amicable solution is found, though. If anyone has any good ideas, besides just spewing drivel about game balance not mattering, I am certain they would be open to them.

[Tgo01]

The audacity of the GMs regarding divergence is pretty amazing.

People spend real life money (a LOT of money in some cases) to buy those self knowledge/X number a day spell items, only for the GMs to come along and say "LOL no! You can't use those items in the new hunting area, and heck, maybe not at all in the future!"

People have a legitimate concern now: what's next?

Are the GMs going to decide one day that +50 armor with T5 ensorcel and 50 points of crit/damage padding is too good so they won't be allowed in new hunting grounds either?

[Taernath]

Rift boot guy: "This time you've gone too far, Simu!"

I guess we'll see.

[Methais]

Are the GMs going to decide one day that +50 armor with T5 ensorcel and 50 points of crit/damage padding is too good so they won't be allowed in new hunting grounds either?

Thanks for reminding me that I forgot to add this section:

Gillien — 08/08/2022
According to dev, a +35 enchant armor might not provide +35 to DS after they “review” it. Theyve been very clear that nothing is safe. This is very bad for spending.

Meb — 08/08/2022
I'm on board. I don't like this direction at all and am really scared for the future of the game. They are pushing me and it sounds like quite a few other away from future revenues and possibly continued gameplay.

[drumpel]

It looks like they want Divergence to just be a bandaid fix for issues that they can add to/remove from on the fly, instead of actually taking the time to correctly fix glaring issues.

Here's an example:

Like the RT/AvD/DF adjustment with some weapons. WTF?
Just do what needs to be done and revamp the weapon system and do it correctly instead of making a half-assed implemented addition to weapons like they did with weapon feats. (the weapon feats are a nice addition, I just think they dropped the ball with how they were overall designed and how they are not used automatically).

[Tgo01]

Gillien — 08/08/2022
According to dev, a +35 enchant armor might not provide +35 to DS after they “review” it. Theyve been very clear that nothing is safe. This is very bad for spending.

If this is true then this dev "balance" is an absolute shit show.

What made people suddenly worry about divergence? They have been shitting on classes and playstyles with their divergence threats for well over a year now. I guess the whales were just too busy laughing at the peons until the GMs started to come for their shit. Now watch the GMs cave, but just enough to placate the whales while everyone else gets fucked.

[Mobius1]

I'm definitely not saying I agree with every decision they are making. It's a crappy situation and there's no easy way out of it. I just get frustrated with people trying to say game balance doesn't matter, because it does.

Divergence is mostly a good thing, in my opinion. But they are still testing it out and will probably tweak some things.

But isn't the whole X a day thing a problem because of spell sever? Spell sever /= Divergence. I actually don't like Spell Sever for a number of reasons!

[Mobius1]

It looks like they want Divergence to just be a bandaid fix for issues that they can add to/remove from on the fly, instead of actually taking the time to correctly fix glaring issues.

Here's an example:

Like the RT/AvD/DF adjustment with some weapons. WTF?
Just do what needs to be done and revamp the weapon system and do it correctly instead of making a half-assed implemented addition to weapons like they did with weapon feats. (the weapon feats are a nice addition, I just think they dropped the ball with how they were overall designed and how they are not used automatically).

The problem is this task is easier said than done. These mechanics are tied to each individual weapon and not just a blanket change. They'd have to touch every existing weapon.

[Tgo01]

But isn't the whole X a day thing a problem because of spell sever? Spell sever /= Divergence. I actually don't like Spell Sever for a number of reasons!

Isn't spell sever a part of divergence? Either way, spell sever is problematic with the way it currently works.

[Methais]

Isn't spell sever a part of divergence? Either way, spell sever is problematic with the way it currently works.

They're technically separate things I think, but they pretty much go hand in hand, and at least so far, 100% of Divergence areas also have Spell Sever. I don't see that changing for any other new content that might happen.

[Rinualdo]

You forgot an important part of this:


Thanks for reminding me that I forgot to add this section:

Gillien — 08/08/2022
According to dev, a +35 enchant armor might not provide +35 to DS after they “review” it. Theyve been very clear that nothing is safe. This is very bad for spending.

Meb — 08/08/2022
I'm on board. I don't like this direction at all and am really scared for the future of the game. They are pushing me and it sounds like quite a few other away from future revenues and possibly continued gameplay/QUOTE]


[QUOTE]Leafiara — 08/08/2022Wait, where was that said?


Gillien — 08/08/2022
That wasn’t the example they used, but they were absolutely clear that nothing is safe.

[Mobius1]

Spell Sever is not so much anything to do with class balance though, unlike Divergence. If anything, it's a nerf to squares, since many don't train spells and thus can only wear two.

But as for the issues with X/day items and spell sever - That's not so much a class balance issue if you ask me.

I do get why they want spell sever, because they are trying to introduce challenge that can't easily be circumvented through pay to win. But ultimately I don't see why they can't adjust spell sever and still obtain balance.

I think one of the important things here is to divorce Divergence and Spell sever in these discussions, unless there is some other pay to win issue with it that I am not aware of. Simply complaining to Wyrom about 3 issues you have with Divergence, is meaningless with the X/day issue, because that is spell sever and not Divergence.

[Methais]

You forgot an important part of this:

I just reposted the cliff notes that were sent to me. I don't hate myself enough to keep up with Discord myself. But that's somewhat of a relief that there was more context to it and that they're not actually looking at enchant bonuses like that.

[Tgo01]

I do get why they want spell sever, because they are trying to introduce challenge that can't easily be circumvented through pay to win.

They aren't doing that though, they are just saying okay all new hunting grounds (even level 50 ones) are going to have spell sever.

Kind of silly to introduce so many pay to win items then say "Oh by the way, going forward all pay to win items are useless."

It's like there are a dozen people running GS, each with their own idea of the direction they want to take the game, and each of them somehow getting their way.

[Orthin]

they could make X a day work like it is a native learned spell while it is active that could help right?

[Tgo01]

they could make X a day work like it is a native learned spell while it is active that could help right?

That's what they should do; X/day items don't count towards the 2 outside spells you're allowed to have in spell sever areas. But to my knowledge at the moment they do count towards the 2 outside spell limit.

[Gelston]

Disable all magic and only whip-blades work.

[Methais]

they could make X a day work like it is a native learned spell while it is active that could help right?

They could, but that would make sense, which is why they won't.

[Tgo01]

Disable all magic and only whip-blades work.

rolaren-edged whip-blades

[Gelston]

rolaren-edged whip-blades

mithril-edged rolaren-edged whip-blades

[Methais]

mithril-edged rolaren-edged whip-blades

Feras whip-blades and only found in boxes.

[Rinualdo]

That's what they should do; X/day items don't count towards the 2 outside spells you're allowed to have in spell sever areas. But to my knowledge at the moment they do count towards the 2 outside spell limit.
If they did that, wouldn't the PC outrage machine just claim this is pushing people to P2W and scream how you now need x/day to hunt in all new areas, and that this was all a ploy by Simu to increase revenue?

[Tgo01]

If they did that, wouldn't the PC outrage machine just claim this is pushing people to P2W and scream how you now need x/day to hunt in all new areas, and that this was all a ploy by Simu to increase revenue?

What's with this "PC outrage machine" talk? We don't have GMs over here banning people for saying things they don't want to hear.

Also I think ripping off customers is worse than turning the game P2W. If you're going to have P2W mechanics then have P2W mechanics. Don't advertise P2W mechanics then take people's money then years later say "Naww! Those P2W items are too good now! But don't worry, we're still gonna do a dozen pay events a year!"

What would be bullshit is if they created NEW P2W items that ONLY work in these new areas, which is probably what they are gonna do.

[Gelston]

If they did that, wouldn't the PC outrage machine just claim this is pushing people to P2W and scream how you now need x/day to hunt in all new areas, and that this was all a ploy by Simu to increase revenue?

"PC outrage machine" or not, nothing said here really has any bearing on the game, so what does it matter. This is a place where people can complain about things without being slapped down by over moderated discord chats.

[Mobius1]

I feel like that defeats the whole purpose of Spell Sever. It would be better if they didn't make special circumstances of X/day spells, because that doesn't include other MIU/AS based spells which, if anything, deserve to work in spell sever because you actually spent TPs for those skills.

I feel like spell sever should just be changed completely, or simply only used for HW, and use old spellburst or something in all other new places. HW was supposed to be the "challenging" zone, but not all the others!

[drumpel]

The problem is this task is easier said than done. These mechanics are tied to each individual weapon and not just a blanket change. They'd have to touch every existing weapon.

That's my point. They need to do the update correctly. Not slap a bandaid fix and tie it to divergence so your weapon sometimes behaves differently in some areas you hunt and not others.

They've had time, lots and lots of time to do things right, they just don't because they can't keep people on staff for long periods of time. Also, it is a big project to revamp the weapon system completely and it would probably take one person too long to do since coding for GSIV isn't a full time job for anyone.

[Methais]

I feel like that defeats the whole purpose of Spell Sever. It would be better if they didn't make special circumstances of X/day spells, because that doesn't include other MIU/AS based spells which, if anything, deserve to work in spell sever because you actually spent TPs for those skills.

I feel like spell sever should just be changed completely, or simply only used for HW, and use old spellburst or something in all other new places. HW was supposed to be the "challenging" zone, but not all the others!

Spell Sever might have worked 10+ years ago, but they've dug the hole way way too deep to use it for anything at all today without pissing everybody off.


HW was supposed to be the "challenging" zone, but not all the others!

This is how Scatter was originally described too, iirc, and we see how that worked out, despite being in a completely self cast environment.

[Mobius1]

That's my point. They need to do the update correctly. Not slap a bandaid fix and tie it to divergence so your weapon sometimes behaves differently in some areas you hunt and not others.

They've had time, lots and lots of time to do things right, they just don't because they can't keep people on staff for long periods of time. Also, it is a big project to revamp the weapon system completely and it would probably take one person too long to do since coding for GSIV isn't a full time job for anyone.

What could perhaps be done is that all new weapons work the new way, and you can hand your current weapons to a GM to have them converted.

[Rinualdo]

From Estild in dev announcements:


Divergence: After months of iterations and play testing, we now feel confident in the progress of the current Divergence setup. However, we still want to address the Bard Review to complete their toolkit now that a few outliers of their spellsongs have been adjusted. We plan to have the revised design document available soon with those details. In addition, there is likely to be a one or more updates for Wizards. Once that is complete, the updates in Divergence will become game-wide and no longer exist as a mechanic isolated to a few areas. At that time, any Spell Knowledge items for the spells currently affected by Divergence will move to the Lost Arts spell circle (or another similar setup to maintain the existing functionality). To avoid having to do this again, there are no plans to offer Spell Knowledge items at future pay events.
Spell Sever: We're currently evaluating a design update for Spell Sever to allow additional spells cast from magical trinkets and scrolls based upon Magical Item Use and Arcane Symbol training. The exact formula is still a work in progress. We're aiming for about +2 spells (that must be cast from a magical trinket or scroll), but trying not to make it too easy for Pures or too difficult for Squares to acquire.
Policy: Lastly, POLICY 15 continues to be our driving force as we delicately try to balance the different aspects of our game and its offerings.

[Gelston]

lolololol

[Methais]

From Estild in dev announcements:

Wizards about to get wrecked.

https://c.tenor.com/-DSYvCR3HnYAAAAC/beaker-fire.gif

[Tgo01]

They still going with pushing divergence game wide? I thought they dropped that dumb ass idea.

[Gelston]

They still going with pushing divergence game wide? I thought they dropped that dumb ass idea.

NOT WHILE ESTILD RUNS THIS DOJO

[Taernath]

In addition, there is likely to be a one or more updates for Wizards.

Make sure you've trained in sufficient water lore to grease up your buttholes, wizards.

https://i.imgur.com/b8M8MsA.gif

[drumpel]

Quick! Spend more real money on SK items at DR before it's too late!

What a bunch of fucking ass hats.

The parts that bug me are:

1) there is likely to be a one or more updates for Wizards.

I wonder what nerf(s) will be handed out this time around. They'll probably change how enchanting works again, too.


2) Once that is complete, the updates in Divergence will become game-wide and no longer exist as a mechanic isolated to a few areas.

So, Divergence will just be game wide. Any current form that Divergence will be is going to be applied to every corner of the map?

[Tgo01]

Any current form that Divergence will be is going to be applied to every corner of the map?

Yup. I'm almost convinced that the GMs have some sort of pool going where they try to piss off as many paying customers as possible.

"Dude! Spell sever! Look at all the people I pissed off!"

"Ddduuuuuddddeee! Check it! Divergence...GAME WIDE!!!"

[Winter]

Does this mean spell sever is being implemented everywhere?

[Tgo01]

Does this mean spell sever is being implemented everywhere?

Wouldn’t surprise me.

[Rinualdo]

Does this mean spell sever is being implemented everywhere?
No

[Amerek]

Carry on, my wayward son
There'll be peace when you are done
Lay your weary head to rest
Don't you cry no more
Once I rose above the noise and confusion
Just to get a glimpse beyond this illusion
I was soaring ever higher
But I flew too high
Though my eyes could see, I still was a blind man
Though my mind could think, I still was a mad man
I hear the voices when I'm dreaming
I can hear them say
Carry on, my wayward son
There'll be peace when you are done
Lay your weary head to rest
Don't you cry no more
Masquerading as a man with a reason
My charade is the event of the season
And if I claim to be a wise man, well
It surely means that I don't know
On a stormy sea of moving emotion
Tossed about, I'm like a ship on the ocean
I set a course for winds of fortune
But I hear the voices say
Carry on my wayward son
There'll be peace when you are done
Lay your weary head to rest
Don't you cry no more, no
Carry on, you will always remember
Carry on, nothing equals the splendor
Now your life's no longer empty
Surely heaven waits for you
Carry on, my wayward son
There'll be peace when you are done
Lay your weary head to rest
Don't you cry, don't you cry no more
No more

[Rjex]

With a straight face, they are making your toons less effective and then asking you to pay them more money to get to the same level of effectiveness. It's a shit ponzi that never ends.

fuck this game

[Methais]

fuck this game

This is correct.

[Xcalibur1]

So they decided their years of being greedy is now the reason to make it stop and do a kinda RESET (why not just call it gemstone 5 at this point tabarnak).

,...

Seems they ran the numbers, checked the subs going down and the money whales were throwing at them being less and less and decided to:

1) FOMO 15X shit to boost money now to make their numbers in 2022 and possibly 2023.
2) Brace for impacts of losing a few whales while they can milk their fanatics à la H2U and those fart sniffers.

Wyrom is a genious, people will still play because hey, it's a 30 years old game, it's a miracle it's still active!

Divergence is great for balance!

Tabarnak!

[Mobius1]

They did say a bard review will come first, as well as some wizard tweaks.

[Gelston]

They did say a bard review will come first, as well as some wizard tweaks.

Wizards will only be able to cast spells once a day.

[Mobius1]

Whatever. Wizards are fine.

[Gelston]

Whatever. Wizards are fine.

no, they don't fit in with the vision.

[Mobius1]

Wizards are still performing well compared to the other classes.

[Gelston]

Wizards are still performing well compared to the other classes.

Too well. Time to nerf them.

[Methais]

Whatever. Wizards are fine.

Wizards are boring and they’re about to be even more boring.

Rogues are fine.

[Mobius1]

When it comes to boring, rogues are about as bad as it gets. Hide, ambush, hide, ambush...

Wizards actually have a pretty cool kit, and are the most versatile of all professions. They also are tanks, thanks to the MjE spells. They also have 2 unique spell circles unlike any other class.

Wizards are still performing well in Divergence. I see tons of them in Atoll!

[Neovik1]

When it comes to boring, rogues are about as bad as it gets. Hide, ambush, hide, ambush...

Wizards actually have a pretty cool kit, and are the most versatile of all professions. They also are tanks, thanks to the MjE spells. They also have 2 unique spell circles unlike any other class.

Wizards are still performing well in Divergence. I see tons of them in Atoll!

I don’t know much about Atoll but in HW as a rogue I do better than my wizard by tons. My rogue now relies on sweep and subdue with my hide and mug for the most difficult area of HW. My wizard can hunt there but he’s no where as good as my rogue and he will die to smrv2 or a sneeze where my rogue survives most of everything. But wizard is only working on 4x cap now. So the xp factor does exist between the two where the rogue is working on 8x cap

[Neovik1]

Seems like valvran’s or whatever they are eat my wizard for lunch since I can’t land 917 on them quick enough. Things also fall on my wizard at times…

[Archigeek]

There appears to have been a pretty heavy reliance on SMR attacks in HW. Additionally, while squares may be more likely to survive those attacks, they're still pretty brutal, even with minimal successes. A 116 end roll and I sometimes end up with a multitude of injuries. It's also important to remember that all of the critters there are above level 100, with some over 115, so you're going to lose badly to SMR attacks because like CS, they're very level based.

[Fleur-de-me]

I just wanted to chime in and say I agree completely, I've boycotted this DR as well.

I'm fine with 1035 losing the group component, but I dont think it needs to be changed as far as the self cast version goes.

The 1030 changes seem fine to me.

515, i'm not even sure where to start. I'll just say NO.

As an overarching thought here, nothing about slowing down combat in general sounds appealing or FUN to me.

[Mobius1]

I don’t know much about Atoll but in HW as a rogue I do better than my wizard by tons. My rogue now relies on sweep and subdue with my hide and mug for the most difficult area of HW. My wizard can hunt there but he’s no where as good as my rogue and he will die to smrv2 or a sneeze where my rogue survives most of everything. But wizard is only working on 4x cap now. So the xp factor does exist between the two where the rogue is working on 8x cap

Honestly the moment I heard about HW I figured rogues would have an advantage because of stealth.

But Divergence isn't just HW. Especially not if it goes game wide!

[Neovik1]

There appears to have been a pretty heavy reliance on SMR attacks in HW. Additionally, while squares may be more likely to survive those attacks, they're still pretty brutal, even with minimal successes. A 116 end roll and I sometimes end up with a multitude of injuries. It's also important to remember that all of the critters there are above level 100, with some over 115, so you're going to lose badly to SMR attacks because like CS, they're very level based.

Yeah, with SMR attacks it can be pretty rough in there. I've gone a week without a death in HW on my rogue then boom! lucky shot dead from an SMR attack. I'm typically not giving any critter a chance to attack though. Whereas on my mage and empath they are constantly exposed and open to SMR attacks. I've started to hunt the Wizard and Empath together which has helped knock down the amount of deaths they have.

[Neovik1]

Honestly the moment I heard about HW I figured rogues would have an advantage because of stealth.

But Divergence isn't just HW. Especially not if it goes game wide!

There are only really two critters that it is hard to hide in front of HW in the higher end area. Valravns (most alert critter in there) and Undansormr.

[Nosh]

I know I'm preaching to the choir here..

Just got my first character to a capped hunting area, and damn does divergence suck. Especially if some of the GM motivation with changes lately has been to de-incentivize MA activity.

I'm running around in a capped area with MA groups who cause spawn rates to spike, and the two major spells i've got to deal with it (950 and 515) are on massive cooldowns. I really don't see how the change doesn't hurt solo players disproportionately compared to... however much faster it made MA groups farm silver, or whatever the motivation for the changes were.

Just wanted to complain a bit.

[Methais]

I know I'm preaching to the choir here..

Just got my first character to a capped hunting area, and damn does divergence suck. Especially if some of the GM motivation with changes lately has been to de-incentivize MA activity.

I'm running around in a capped area with MA groups who cause spawn rates to spike, and the two major spells i've got to deal with it (950 and 515) are on massive cooldowns. I really don't see how the change doesn't hurt solo players disproportionately compared to... however much faster it made MA groups farm silver, or whatever the motivation for the changes were.

Just wanted to complain a bit.

Avoid Hinterwilds and Atoll for now and stick to the other capped areas where those nerfs aren't present. Yet.

SoS is still the overall best for both exp/bounty efficiency and loot. HW is pretty meh for bounties still and Atoll is just Nelemar with Divergence nerfs to make it extra boring.

[Nosh]

Is Sanctum as much of a PITA to get in and out of as it seems to be? I hadn't considered that one since it seemed like it would take more time to enter and leave than it did to hunt.

[Viekn]

I'm running around in a capped area with MA groups who cause spawn rates to spike, and the two major spells i've got to deal with it (950 and 515) are on massive cooldowns.

Depending on your mana pool, don't let the penalty for ignoring the 515 cool down keep you from using it repeatedly. The penalty is just that all of your spells will cost you 5 additional mana. At 101 HP (306 mana pool) and 243 ranks EMC, I use 515 repeatedly and never run into much of an issue with mana shortage due to ignoring the 515 cool down. That's just my experience though.

[Lavastene]

Is Sanctum as much of a PITA to get in and out of as it seems to be? I hadn't considered that one since it seemed like it would take more time to enter and leave than it did to hunt.
Honestly, it isn't too bad at all. I'm happy to let you piggy back on one of my times that I am entering through the privy with my periapt if you ever wanted to give it a shot. After you are in there and have a charged periapt it is very easy to get in and out.

Most of the time, going out, I will teleport to the oasis and take the caravan out. It does come with a risk of bandits but I usually see them about once every 10 trips out or so. And it never is a major issue for me.

[Methais]

Is Sanctum as much of a PITA to get in and out of as it seems to be? I hadn't considered that one since it seemed like it would take more time to enter and leave than it did to hunt.

If you don't have a charged periapt, it's a little annoying. But if you're not wearing a periapt in SoS, then everything you kill will drop one, and killing stuff will charge your periapt, which is used to portal in and out instead of using the stupid caravan. You'll need some climbing skill, but I don't think it needs a ton unless you stay encumbered or something. You can also have someone charge a periapt for you, you don't necessarily have to charge it up yourself. Or you can just stand around the room until someone else goes in, then just go through the portal they opened. They stay up for a minute or two.

Once you're in SoS, set some ;wander borders to keep you out of the desert. Because the desert is annoying and stupid.

If you need help getting in, hit me up on Discord or LNet. If I'm paying attention at the time, I'll get you in.