The 3 Best Rogue Builds (according to my opinion)

[Mobius1]

As a disclaimer, 2 of these builds are min/max builds, and you should always put RP ahead of mechanics if it matters to you. Also, I personally am in general against the use of disablers or other set up moves as an ambusher (from a min/max perspective). There are exceptions to this, where height is an issue, perceptive critters in arena, etc.. But for general hunting, since ambush stance pushdown is already doing half the work of a set up move for you, you shouldn't need to use them if you are min/maxed (or if go with build #3). Instead of utilizing disablers or divert against swarms if they are too much for you to handle, you can use vanish or silent strike (Remember too, that silent strike has no armor penalty like vanish does.).

I'd recommend doubles (or possibly robes if you have amazing DS.) or MBP as your armor with all of these builds, depending on your needs (DS from Light armor proficiency, or +TD from MBP.).

1)TWC Daggers with Whirling Dervish and Predator's Eye.

The key to this build is getting two crit weighted daggers (Preferably HCW, and preferably perfect forged) that are 7x, and having the enhancives/ascension needed to achieve AS to get the end rolls required to make it shine. Your goal should be able to consistently get 239+ end rolls with perfect daggers (247 if not perfect). If you can't guarantee those end rolls even with a roll of 1, then you need to get more AS (I'd for sure recommend +50 Edged from enhancives, and perhaps some +CM, or STR as well. Surge of Strength can help, as well as wspec.).

If you are doing a kill bounty (heirloom, cull, or dangerous critter) or solo Arena, I would use predator's eye (Unless there are generally lots of multiples of your target in the same room.), otherwise I would use Dervish (Mmm, bandits).

DS could potentially be an issue for you with this build, so you will need 3x dodging, and perhaps even some +Dodging/Agi enhancives (And/or learn 430/120 if you are well post cap).

2)Dagger and small shield. You will be more impacted by EBP with this build, but it's still cut in half with ambush. This build obviously prioritizes +DS/TD and shield cman defense (Being able to defend against shield bash better is sure nice!), over the ability to kill things more easily. An ensorcelled shield can mean +15 TD for you (-15 CvA), besides the other obvious boosts. You can also learn Deflect The Elements, which defects any type of flare (including dispel flares).

This is the build I personally have, as I like defense over killing speed (Though I use brawling weapons, which I will touch on later.).

3)UCS Mug build, with a shield and Predator's Eye. This may very well be the best rogue build there is, and requires the least amount of min/max or gear to succeed with. You can do without the shield, but the benefits of having one far outweighs the negatives.

With this build, you lead with a Mug ambush, which will put you at tier 2 positioning, and then finish them off with a punch ambush to the head. Predator's Eye works with Punch, and gives you a 90% chance to hit the head (if they are standing). It's slower to kill, but it's the absolute best build if you want to include Mug in your hunting, because the initial Mug gives you a tier up (and is faster than a regular UCS ambush), so that your follow-up ambush to the head is tier 3. A tier 3 ambush to the head should kill even if they EBP the attack, since UCS works differently in that regard.

The nice thing about UCS, is even though it's slower to kill overall (Because you usually need two attacks to kill), you don't need to invest as much in +attack gear, and crit weighting has very little impact so your gear is not super important.

As for the dagger builds, potentially the 3 second brawling weapons, namely the Blackjack, can be 5% better. But to make it work requires better gear, training and/or spells. Another thing to consider with the non-UCS builds is +Dex, as every 4 bonus = 1 CER crit weighting. Also, +50 stamina regen is also fantastic, and will help you greatly if you lean on vanish or silent strike to kill. Something to consider about vanish, is that it is also a great offensive min/max move, as it shaves off your 1 second hide RT. Probably 99% of my vanishes, personally, are to shave the 1 sec RT and NOT for defensive purposes. Silent strike also removes the 1 sec hiding RT from your TTK.

Also, you may notice that I did not include ranged in these builds. Ranged is great in many ways, and is a strong path, don't get me wrong. But these are the three BEST builds. If anyone wants to claim that ranged is better, come at me bro! I will gladly explain why melee is better (purely mechanically speaking.).

EDIT: I forgot to mention garrote. You can use it against stuff like OSA captains instead of subdue + waylay.

[Tgo01]

My rogue used to dual wield daggers a long time ago and I loved it. It was fun one shotting arctic manticores over and over again.

[Gizmo]

heh

[danielsh]

Also, you may notice that I did not include ranged in these builds. Ranged is great in many ways, and is a strong path, don't get me wrong. But these are the three BEST builds. If anyone wants to claim that ranged is better, come at me bro! I will gladly explain why melee is better (purely mechanically speaking.).

I read a lot of comments about how ranged is OP. Not many claiming that melee is mechanically superior. Curious to hear your argument!

[Mobius1]

Ranged is superior in that it can achieve sufficient results with less TP investment, since you can forgo hiding and a lot of CM training.

But ranged loses to melee in all 3 of my builds, IMO. Clearly the UCS build is very focused on getting the best results from Mug, so that one doesn't really count as a comparison. If you are already mugging, you might as well take advantage of the free tier up to follow up with a lethal punch that can't be stopped by EBP. But as for the other two builds, it's quite simple.

In the case of TWC, you get Dervish, which is usually 2 kills in 4 seconds. Or you get a 10% higher chance to hit your aimed target. Also, in any situation, if your main hand is EBPed your offhand can finish the job.

In the case of the second build, obviously you get the 10% hit chance from predator's eye, but you also get a SHIELD, which is huge, and worth more than the -1 RT of shooting a longbow in 3 seconds in my opinion.

Another issue with ranged is going against plate armor, especially full plate, and especially especially padded full plate. You don't get the extra 50 CER that melee ambush gets, which gives it the ability to adjust to just about any situation (even if it means having to use a slower weapon temporarily, if your small weapons can't pack enough punch.). Ranged doesn't even have that option.

I'd say the best scenario for ranged is if you snipe, because you can get the EBP reduction, stance pushdown, and you get free silent strike. Also, it can shine against tall critters, as well as critters that rarely or never EBP. Ranged is clearly a good path, and is no doubt strong. But I find the bonus of having an offhand weapon or having a shield, and the skills that come with them, to be better than ranged in almost all situations.

Open archery especially suffers, because you eat 100% of the target's EBP chance, on top of your 25% miss chance.

Ultimately, depending on your personal objectives, archery could potentially be superior to melee in limited situations. But I believe it falls short of melee in most circumstances.

[Malvadere]

For what it's worth, I tested and threw billions of silvers into multiple builds with a mid/high-exp halfling rogue. By far the best build I found was using a single hand-crossbow with a buckler, with zero ranks in hiding. However, Ill write a similiar style breakdown on my findings.

1) One hand-crossbow with a buckler, zero hiding, open aim/mstrike. I think I used slippery mind, but it never mattered. This was by far the most efficient build I found for a rogue to use. One-shot just about everything, focused mstrike on the full plate stuff (still a one-shot). My self spelled AS in The Scatter was 703 (give or take) and it really was unstoppable and lightning-fast. Nothing could touch me magically or physically, so there was no need to waste seconds hiding. This evolved from using dual hand-crossbows, which I found was overkill, and reduced my killing times significantly by dropping one, and picking up more defense and AS (10x T5 Zelnorn buckler with resists) with a shield. Hand-crossbow I used was 15CER sighted.

2) Longbow (did massive damage and I had enough STR to reduce RT). Was just slower, I really only used the sickass bow I had for invasions

3) Dual hand-crossbows/quick two-handed weapon ambush.

4) OHE

[Mobius1]

For what it's worth, I tested and threw billions of silvers into multiple builds with a mid/high-exp halfling rogue. By far the best build I found was using a single hand-crossbow with a buckler, with zero ranks in hiding. However, Ill write a similiar style breakdown on my findings.

1) One hand-crossbow with a buckler, zero hiding, open aim/mstrike. I think I used slippery mind, but it never mattered. This was by far the most efficient build I found for a rogue to use. One-shot just about everything, focused mstrike on the full plate stuff (still a one-shot). My self spelled AS in The Scatter was 703 (give or take) and it really was unstoppable and lightning-fast. Nothing could touch me magically or physically, so there was no need to waste seconds hiding. This evolved from using dual hand-crossbows, which I found was overkill, and reduced my killing times significantly by dropping one, and picking up more defense and AS (10x T5 Zelnorn buckler with resists) with a shield. Hand-crossbow I used was 15CER sighted.

2) Longbow (did massive damage and I had enough STR to reduce RT). Was just slower, I really only used the sickass bow I had for invasions

3) Dual hand-crossbows/quick two-handed weapon ambush.

4) OHE

Yeah, but the thing with a hand crossbow is it's a 4 second weapon. And from the open you are eating the 100% EBP and 25% miss chance combined. TWC hand crossbows can overcome that, but it's still slower. TWO small weapons is still only 4 second RT.

People act like hiding slows you down, but 1)Vanish/Silent Strike removes the RT, and 2)The EBP reduction is worth it. And quite frankly 3)The defensive benefits can't be overlooked. You mentioned Scatter, which is a place where hiding benefits most rogues defensively. Of course, ranged can also utilize hide for these benefits, but in that case hand crossbows are the same RT as daggers, yet don't get predator's eye and/or dervish.

Also, a round of mstrike is not as fast as 4 seconds. Granted, not everyone can kill a vvrael destroyer with a dagger, but it's not THAT hard, if you have what it takes to pull off. Even if you can only achieve a rank 7 wound against them, that's still over 90% chance it kills.

Like I said before, most people I have seen that tout open Ranged as being great, overlook EBP and the impact it is having, and the loss of predator's eye and dervish. Personally I ambush with brawling weapons, and my chance to miss the head is only 10%. Pretty damn nice compared to 1 in 4 of your ranged attacks missing the eye. Did you use disablers?

[Malvadere]

Did you use disablers?

Never had to with my AS. I use shield spike stuff because it was awesome though.


People act like hiding slows you down, but 1)Vanish/Silent Strike removes the RT, and 2)The EBP reduction is worth it. And quite frankly 3)The defensive benefits can't be overlooked.

1) It does (or at least did when I quit. I stopped playing right before PMS 2.0 [yes I know it's not PMS] came out).
2) Not really.
3) They absolutely can. My DS in offensive was something like 630 sell spelled. I would DC in the Scatter and come back fine.

[Mobius1]

Never had to with my AS. I use shield spike stuff because it was awesome though.



1) It does (or at least did when I quit. I stopped playing right before PMS 2.0 [yes I know it's not PMS] came out).
2) Not really.
3) They absolutely can. My DS in offensive was something like 630 sell spelled. I would DC in the Scatter and come back fine.

Well, that's part of it then. Hiding is only 1 second since PSM3, among a ton of other changes. Vanish and silent strike are Feats now, and I think their stamina cost was also adjusted. With +50 stamina regen you can vanish and silent strike like a mofo, shaving the 1 second RT.

As for Scatter, DS isn't really the problem there. It's SMR and CS!

And you can downplay your miss chances, but you are MINIMUM missing 1 in 4 of your attacks to the eye, because of the aiming hard cap. And EBP is absolutely a large factor you can't ignore.

Another thing to note, is that the hand crossbow DFs are overall pretty awful. You were able to make it work by investing a ton of money and by aiming for eyes, but honestly you'd just as easily succeed using a katar from the open and aiming for the eyes, as it has much better DFs and AvD. If you had a 15 CER katar swinging from the open with the same amount of AS boosts, you wouldn't need to hide either (Katar is also 70/30% puncture/slash just like bolts.). Plus you could absolutely wreck things with Waylay in the situations it's called for.

But then you eat all the misses just like ranged. Use vanish, use silent strike, and you will cut EBP in half. I don't know about you, but EBP is annoying as hell even WITH the ambush reduction. I can't even stomach it from the open!

[Mobius1]

One other thing to keep in mind, is that ranged aiming RT will no longer be able to be removed once it's added to Divergence. And Divergence, once the GMs are satisfied with the results, is supposed to be applied game wide.

So eventually ranged is likely to get +1 RT because of this. I understand where they are coming from on this, but it's unfortunate, as I feel melee already is superior.

[Malvadere]

One other thing to keep in mind, is that ranged aiming RT will no longer be able to be removed once it's added to Divergence. And Divergence, once the GMs are satisfied with the results, is supposed to be applied game wide.

So eventually ranged is likely to get +1 RT because of this. I understand where they are coming from on this, but it's unfortunate, as I feel melee already is superior.

Yea I often thought about returning eventually, but Divergence has just about kicked that thought in the teeth.

[Neovik1]

For me ranged only comes out ahead of you are dealing with swarms. Volley will sometimes kill things in the first volley wave. I typically hunt day to day with open hand / shield. I open with hide mug and hide punch for the second round. If more 2 - 3 targets I will toss up a volley and put the hand crossbow away and then use UCS until the waves of volley finish. I did not know though that predator’s eye works with punch though.

In HW I’ve been doing volley, shield throw, ewave then moving to ucs until cooldowns are ready. Nothing beats mugging though.

[Neovik1]

Dual hand crossbows were better though until you couldn’t tab off targets while using barrage. But you were still always better off with ucs 1v1. Ucs is still king and more so in HW.

[Mobius1]

Dual hand crossbows were better though until you couldn’t tab off targets while using barrage. But you were still always better off with ucs 1v1. Ucs is still king and more so in HW.

Well, I think melee ambush would be better, if you get the needed +ambush for your pushdown and weighting to properly kick in. I'd assume it's somewhere in the +20-30 range (through enhancives or ascension) depending on their level.

[Mobius1]

Heh, you can probably throw the whole archery/melee debate out the window now, as they are proposing to reduce melee RT, which will mean 2 second attacks with dual small weapons. (and they won't be nerfing ranged.).

[Neovik1]

Heh, you can probably throw the whole archery/melee debate out the window now, as they are proposing to reduce melee RT, which will mean 2 second attacks with dual small weapons. (and they won't be nerfing ranged.).

Right now it's only good for using volley in a swarm and putting it away to punch things. heh... the hand crossbow thing is still fun and a change of pace but it just does not work well with HW once you leave the south side. I've pretty much unlearned my ascension ranged and dumping it into agi/dex until I max those out.

[Mobius1]

So far UCS isn't getting the RT reduction, sadly. Maybe they will change that

[Asha]

Someone said a while back that crossbow and shield was awesome. Im yet to try it.
But i have tried almost every build possible.When i tried shield and dagger I thought I'd found my perfect build. Literally unkillable. But then I tried TWC VHCW dagger and Fighting Dagger in full plate (or robes or leathers or scale depends if you want to ewave) is the most damage build Ive had and I LOVE it.
I couldnt go back to shield and sword after that.
When I hunt in a decent set of plate, my DS is high(ish - I dont have billions of coins) in offensive which is very manageable. But when I want to cruise I choose robes and just ewave. The light armour mastery seems to give me a fair bit extra DS too.

Ranged was fun for a while especially with the ammo changes, a disitegration razor and volley but I dunno, it's like something changed and I can't put my finger on it. It seems to be less effective.
Im loving reading these ideas though, this thread is exactly what I love to read. Hope it keeps going.

[Asha]

Heh, you can probably throw the whole archery/melee debate out the window now, as they are proposing to reduce melee RT, which will mean 2 second attacks with dual small weapons. (and they won't be nerfing ranged.).

I havent been paying attention to Divergence or whatever the changes concerned are called, but this is exciting.
As long as they don't nerf the ambush DS pushdown or phantom crit weighting I don't see a change from TWC ever.
I thought waylaying with a claid or maul would be disgustingly strong but its not. I don't know how, but a dagger or longsword can get AS HIGH results. I dont understand the formulas, never have I on;y know what I've tried and after all these years 430/120 plate/robes TWC is the key for a rogue. I feel like Naijin is forcing us into this mould (mold?) anyway.
While I don't really like all his changes he is FAST and he listens so Ill do what he wants heh.

[Mobius1]

Waylay does do more damage with heavier weapons, but since you get so much CER from ambush, converting it to damage weighting coupled with how the waylay damage equation works, you can still hit high numbers with small weapons.

TWC from an offensive standpoint is super awesome, and I'm glad you like plate. So many people give me crap for recommending plate to rogues, but TD being so important, that CvA is freaking priceless. Sure, there are pros and cons, which is why I ultimately think you should choose based on what is mostly killing you.

I personally like using a shield mostly for the extra TD. Not only can you get -15 CvA from it, but +TD shields are also fairly common these days. But if maximizing your killing potential is your main objective, TWC is absolutely the way to go.

[Asha]

Waylay does do more damage with heavier weapons, but since you get so much CER from ambush, converting it to damage weighting coupled with how the waylay damage equation works, you can still hit high numbers with small weapons.

TWC from an offensive standpoint is super awesome, and I'm glad you like plate. So many people give me crap for recommending plate to rogues, but TD being so important, that CvA is freaking priceless. Sure, there are pros and cons, which is why I ultimately think you should choose based on what is mostly killing you.

I personally like using a shield mostly for the extra TD. Not only can you get -15 CvA from it, but +TD shields are also fairly common these days. But if maximizing your killing potential is your main objective, TWC is absolutely the way to go.

Its sad that people give you shit for recommending plate. Plate is amazing like you say, the TD and flat out survivability is so worthwhile. If you can get your hands on VHDP then it's almost a joke. I could only find crit padded but I'll change the moment I find something as highly padded with damage resistance.

I didn't even know shields add a flat +20 DS before even taking into account what enchant or bonuses the shield has till recently. I didn't know about the TD or CvA till right now reading your post. I've just been so bewildered by the formulas since I was a kid and Riltus is gone so I just guessed my way.
Thanks for the tips they've made me think again about my build which is where I find the fun in GS. Just riffing builds! :D

[Mobius1]

Well, one thing to keep in mind is that crit padding helps against maneuver damage and certain spells, which is why I personally like it.

The CvA from a shield comes from a T5 ensorcell + Rank 5 shield focus.

And yeah, plate is so great! People get hung up over Light Armor Proficiency, evade DS, and Vanish, but you can take hits so well, and have that fat -18 CvA (assuming MBP). You'll lose a whopping 1 SMR defense at most, but you gain the damage reduction against spells and maneuvers (-5 CER to torso, -3 everywhere else with MBP.).

And man, get some +TD plate and it's just ludicrous!

[Asha]

Exsanguinate. Is it any good?
Would I have to use cutthroat first or is it ok with any old rank 2 or 3?
Lastly, the wording makes it seem like you get a passive boon:

''Finally, you passively gain one additional round of Major Bleed at ranks 3 and 5 (up to 2 additional rounds)''.

What does that mean exactly, I'm not sure.