Hinterwilds are coming, so is Atoll

[Dendum]

Hinterwilds is coming in the next couple of weeks.


Also in other news looks like the KF bandit tango is about to come to an end.
You know unless you MA and just share the bounty.

Just posting this here for people who do not Discord.

[Orthin]

Is Atoll the KF capped hunting ground?

[Dendum]

Yes, I ran through last night on test. It seems ok.
Not sure I would take the time to go to KF for it but it seems ok.

[Orthin]

Yes, I ran through last night on test. It seems ok.
Not sure I would take the time to go to KF for it but it seems ok.

How would you rate it based on current capped areas?

[Archigeek]

I hunted Hinterwinds for about an hour, visiting all parts and fighting all of the highest level creatures. I would say that it was somewhat challenging to solo, but not as much as I expected. Soloing what is supposed to be the most challenging hunting grounds, you expect to get killed. I got close a couple of times. I do suspect that it would be pretty challenging in a swarming situation.

I found the access via wagon to be a pretty lazy design with zero sense of immersion. The swim across the river is again, an over-used trope in Gemstone, and the addition of "ooh, cold water" was completely unrealistic and lacking creativity. I'd love to see those two items improved upon.

Once I got in there, I liked it. It's a very large hunting area with something for everyone.

Hopefully a decent background story is put in place, the wagon is replaced with a walk through the snow, and the swim across the river is replaced with a walk across a frozen river. Then it would be all good and a fun place to hunt.

[Mobius1]

Since HW is getting released, Naijin said Atoll is soon to follow. Bye bye bandit gravy train :(

[Dendum]

How would you rate it based on current capped areas?

Not really sure you can trust the loot on test but it seemed good (I really don't think it represents what it will look like when there is more than one person hunting an hour)

Some of the mobs are UAC/UCS based so.....they were not a problem for my character but they do have some cheap mechanics that I could see being problematic. There are some hiding mechanics mobs as well. Someone said there was some anti-ranged mechanics but I killed everything I could find and didn't see it...except for the always annoying Cloak of Shadows some of them had.

I could see it killing me on an unlucky roll or if I walked in a room and they unloaded on me with quick jabs like happened once but it was nothing compared to cheesy Rift Mechanics...maybe closest to Old Ta'Faendryl. The big kicker is you have to be stuck on KF to hunt the area.

As it stands now if you are running a 5 MA team bandits are obviously your better bounty choice, and you will have no trouble keeping Bandit Bounties up with such a team, but I wouldn't be horrified if I pulled an Atoll bounty. (I am not sure if divergence is a thing at the Atoll as it is in HW as I am not affected by divergence). I don't know if I would travel to KF for the purpose of doing Atoll though it just seems like a place designed to stop the endless bandit train more than anything.

People have been asking for more capped hunting grounds since before Discord so it is nice to see that happening in a variety of spots...I think FWI is slated for one as well.

[BLZrizz]

Atoll is divergence and spell sever, and the devs said this was to be the case with any new areas going forward (until the bard review for the divergence part).

[Mobius1]

Atoll is divergence and spell sever, and the devs said this was to be the case with any new areas going forward (until the bard review for the divergence part).

So they want all warriors/rogues to learn spells or be KS. So stupid.

The argument sort of held up with HW because they expect you to have a crap ton of XP (though I still think it's stupid.). I've asked several times on Discord for them to change it to be like Rift + 2 spells, but like anything on Discord it gets buried in vomit.

[Gelston]

So they want all warriors/rogues to learn spells or be KS. So stupid.

The argument sort of held up with HW because they expect you to have a crap ton of XP (though I still think it's stupid.). I've asked several times on Discord for them to change it to be like Rift + 2 spells, but like anything on Discord it gets buried in vomit.

You can direct message them.

[Mobius1]

Hell, I just butt heads with Naijin over it on Rogue Discord.

He claims that rogues and warriors don't need to wear spells to be balanced. Ok, so what does your weak ass spelless rogue have over say, a ranger? Other than a significantly higher death count and lower XP per hour rate?

It's not even a matter of balance, since all a square needs to do is learn the spells (I mean, is he saying rogue/warriors need to be handicapped to be balanced?). If somehow it's a matter of balance, then why allow me to have the spells if I know them? He literally is in the camp that "You shouldn't get the benefit of spells since you didn't earn the XP for them."

Don't get me wrong, that would be fantastic if I could compare to other classes if I was spelless, but this is GS4 and not GS5, unfortunately. Squares have always had to beg for spells, which I've always thought was unfair.

Apparently if you play "SMART", you have no issues being spelless as a square. Though if you were ACTUALLY playing smart, you'd simply wear spells and leave his silly new hunting ground alone (Unless you know the spells.).

[Archigeek]

If you're enough post cap for HW you either know a lot of spells or are hard core KS.

[Mobius1]

If you're enough post cap for HW you either know a lot of spells or are hard core KS.

Yes, but we are talking Atoll which is supposed to be a normal capped zone. Granted, I disagree that it should work that way in HW too, because I don't like it forcing squares to either learn spells or go KS. But since it has zero impact on me personally I am swiftly losing my motivation with slamming my head against the wall that is Naijin defending his creations to the death.

[Archigeek]

For what it's worth, I don't have a problem with someone making use of a first rate set of scrolls and items. That is an investment in TPs too.

[Mobius1]

I agree. I don't think even my Rift + 2 is the best solution.

[Maerit]

I hunted Hinterwinds for about an hour, visiting all parts and fighting all of the highest level creatures. I would say that it was somewhat challenging to solo, but not as much as I expected. Soloing what is supposed to be the most challenging hunting grounds, you expect to get killed. I got close a couple of times. I do suspect that it would be pretty challenging in a swarming situation.

I found the access via wagon to be a pretty lazy design with zero sense of immersion. The swim across the river is again, an over-used trope in Gemstone, and the addition of "ooh, cold water" was completely unrealistic and lacking creativity. I'd love to see those two items improved upon.

Once I got in there, I liked it. It's a very large hunting area with something for everyone.

Hopefully a decent background story is put in place, the wagon is replaced with a walk through the snow, and the swim across the river is replaced with a walk across a frozen river. Then it would be all good and a fun place to hunt.

It's easy to solo on test server because you're not going to see the swarms that will happen in Prime.

[Archigeek]

It's easy to solo on test server because you're not going to see the swarms that will happen in Prime.

I wouldn't say that's very accurate in this case. They have the ability to adjust spawn rate, and it was close to what I would call normal. Also, I spent the most time hunting critters that were level 110-115. It was challenging to solo as a square with good gear.

[Mobius1]

Are there many warriors with spells, or are most just using KS in HW? I know as a rogue we can at least lean on stealth, but also learning spells is cheaper for us.

It drives me crazy with the direction they are going with this spell sever BS. It encourages either learning spells, or going KS, when most people are in neither camp. So are they trying to say that learning spells is expected of squares now? Obviously this goes beyond just HW, as Atoll has it, and Naijin said all new hunting grounds will have it (And Divergence, which is his way of circumventing the usual steps in order to impose his and Estild's vision. This is a whole other discussion in itself, and regardless of whether the nerfs are needed, I personally feel they should not go into effect in normal hunting areas until they are put into effect in ALL hunting areas. But whatever, if they want no one to hunt their new Atoll or any other new hunting grounds, that's their choice.).

[Tgo01]

Are there many warriors with spells, or are most just using KS in HW? I know as a rogue we can at least lean on stealth, but also learning spells is cheaper for us.

It drives me crazy with the direction they are going with this spell sever BS. It encourages either learning spells, or going KS, when most people are in neither camp. So are they trying to say that learning spells is expected of squares now? Obviously this goes beyond just HW, as Atoll has it, and Naijin said all new hunting grounds will have it (And Divergence, which is his way of circumventing the usual steps in order to impose his and Estild's vision. This is a whole other discussion in itself, and regardless of whether the nerfs are needed, I personally feel they should not go into effect in normal hunting areas until they are put into effect in ALL hunting areas. But whatever, if they want no one to hunt their new Atoll or any other new hunting grounds, that's their choice.).

The GMs have always been about "You're having fun wrong!!!!!" but they really do seem to have kicked it up a notch in recent years.

Here's a short list of things just off the top of my head that follows this mantra of theirs:

One of the new hunting grounds (both? all future ones?) will have a group limit of 5
Spell sever hunting grounds
Nerfing 1030
Nerfing 1035
Nerfing 240
Really pushing squares towards KS

It's almost like the GMs hate the fact that there are a variety of ways to play each class (a lot fewer ways these days) and are just nerfing those other ways to play until the classes fall under their vision of how they want us to play the classes. It's really strange.

[Mobius1]

And by "their," you mean Naijin and Estild.

What's funny is people claim that this stuff is somehow giving us MORE options. In fact this was literally said in mechanics Discord this morning. The "options" given, were that you can go "hybrid spells" aka, you have to learn spells, lol!! So yeah, go KS or learn spells, those are you options.

My problem with our dev GMs is they seem absolutely unwilling to waver on their personal opinions. It's their way or the highway, and they can never be wrong, and they tend to be as blunt about it as a power tripping police officer with a tazer. Hell, like when I complained about the shield certs at DR, spoke with a Dev GM about it (in game), and he basically callously told me tough luck, nothing can be done and it will never be changed as that's how it was intended. Then I complained in the event Discord and that same day they changed the certs to be more reasonable.

Why do they need Divergence, for example? It's Dev GMs trying to cheat the system to enforce their own personal nerfs without going through the usual channels.

The whole spell sever thing isn't a class balance issue. I HAVE the spells as a square, and so do many others, so literally all it does is serve as a XP gating mechanic (and/or gear). Or forces you to hunt in a lot weaker state which IMO the game is NOT balanced for. Even KS is not very good for most people, and has huge ramifications beyond what many realize.

[Tgo01]

My problem with our dev GMs is they seem absolutely unwilling to waver on their personal opinions. It's their way or the highway, and they can never be wrong, and they tend to be as blunt about it as a power tripping police officer with a tazer. Hell, like when I complained about the shield certs at DR, spoke with a Dev GM about it (in game), and he basically callously told me tough luck, nothing can be done and it will never be changed as that's how it was intended. Then I complained in the event Discord and that same day they changed the certs to be more reasonable.

Why do they need Divergence, for example? It's Dev GMs trying to cheat the system to enforce their own personal nerfs without going through the usual channels.

Yup. Really it's lazy balancing and the people on Discord praise it as revolutionary.

Estild often says the reason 240 needs to be nerfed is because people have so much mana and mana regen these days that they can keep 240 up all the time. Well...yes...you (the GMs) gave people these options to increase their power in a variety of ways (leveling, enhancives, society abilities, ascension) so they can devote time, effort, and silvers/real money so they can increase their power so they can reach a point where they can keep 240 up all the time. This is how these types of games work; people devote time to increase the power of their character so they can do things that lower power characters can't do.

And rather than the GMs looking at the "problem" and saying "Okay, what other things can we add so people have more options to use their mana on, which might lead them to not wanting to keep 240 up all the time", they instead say "LOL! Too powerful! Time to nerf!"

They are essentially destroying the entire purpose of accumulating power, which again is the entire point of these types of games.

Imagine if in WoW they looked at top tier raiding guilds and say "Wait a minute...this person put in all of this time and effort to accumulate all of this power and he can output THIS much damage, when a freshly capped character couldn't possibly output that much damage? Well this just won't do! We need to nerf this top tier raider!"

[Tgo01]

Yup. Really it's lazy balancing and the people on Discord praise it as revolutionary.

Just as an example: when the GMs announced 5 player group limits everyone on Discord was having a good laugh saying this will show that gosh darn evil Dreaven. When I pointed out it was just lazy balancing they just doubled down on their nonsense, but none of them could explain to me how limiting group sizes adds anything to the game?

Oh oh, they didn't want people to "trivialize" content. This coming from the same people with their +50 weapons of doom with +500 points of crit weighting, 20,000 different banes, 20 different ways to flare, and their +50 full plate armor with +1000 points of crit and damage padding. "But...but more than 5 people in a group trivializes content!"

I don't even have any desire to hunt that new hunting ground, regardless of the group size limit, so I guess they just nerfed solo players who wanted to hunt in large groups for no real reason.

[Mobius1]

Oh oh, they didn't want people to "trivialize" content. This coming from the same people with their +50 weapons of doom with +500 points of crit weighting, 20,000 different banes, 20 different ways to flare, and their +50 full plate armor with +1000 points of crit and damage padding. "But...but more than 5 people in a group trivializes content!"


What pisses me off, is people will spout drivel to me like "You just want to be invincible," when asking for just about anything on Discord. I dunno, I'm not the one spending $20,000 to try and be invincible like many of them are? But if they cared about the challenge so much, they could simply self impose it, instead of trying to do everything in their power to minimize it.

The only "challenge" for most people, is getting their script working!

Most people won't be going to HW for the "challenge". They'll go for the rewards (which are currently garbo, until they release archetypes.). But that leaves areas like Atoll to fall by the wayside, since it will cater mostly to non-divergence classes, and squares who know spells or are KS. The rest will just go to where the easiest hunting is.

[Donquix]

Yes I also hate when people repeat the things I've said to me and I'm forced to come to terms with the fact that it makes me sound like an asshole. That is very annoying.

[Methais]

I hunted Hinterwinds for about an hour, visiting all parts and fighting all of the highest level creatures. I would say that it was somewhat challenging to solo, but not as much as I expected. Soloing what is supposed to be the most challenging hunting grounds, you expect to get killed. I got close a couple of times. I do suspect that it would be pretty challenging in a swarming situation.

I found the access via wagon to be a pretty lazy design with zero sense of immersion. The swim across the river is again, an over-used trope in Gemstone, and the addition of "ooh, cold water" was completely unrealistic and lacking creativity. I'd love to see those two items improved upon.

Once I got in there, I liked it. It's a very large hunting area with something for everyone.

Hopefully a decent background story is put in place, the wagon is replaced with a walk through the snow, and the swim across the river is replaced with a walk across a frozen river. Then it would be all good and a fun place to hunt.

You would think by now Simu would realize that making areas unnecessarily annoying and/or time consuming to get to is incredibly stupid "game design" and does nothing positive for the game itself.

[Methais]

Why do they need Divergence, for example?

Probably so high end gear will stay in demand, and since they intentionally murdered the silver market, well...

[Methais]

What pisses me off, is people will spout drivel to me like "You just want to be invincible," when asking for just about anything on Discord. I dunno, I'm not the one spending $20,000 to try and be invincible like many of them are? But if they cared about the challenge so much, they could simply self impose it, instead of trying to do everything in their power to minimize it.

The only "challenge" for most people, is getting their script working!

Most people won't be going to HW for the "challenge". They'll go for the rewards (which are currently garbo, until they release archetypes.). But that leaves areas like Atoll to fall by the wayside, since it will cater mostly to non-divergence classes, and squares who know spells or are KS. The rest will just go to where the easiest hunting is.

Reply to those people with "You spent $20,000 trying to be invincible and still die constantly."

EDIT: wtf is KS?

[Archigeek]

You would think by now Simu would realize that making areas unnecessarily annoying and/or time consuming to get to is incredibly stupid "game design" and does nothing positive for the game itself.

I don't mind a little bit, in fact I prefer it be at least some bit of work to get in, but at least be creative about it please. There is some amazing design in Gemstone regarding access to hunting grounds, non of which involve swimming, except for RRs cool swim design, and the Rift pool access is pretty cool too, though almost everyone bypasses it.

[Orthin]

Reply to those people with "You spent $20,000 trying to be invincible and still die constantly."

EDIT: wtf is KS?

Kroderine or korderine soul however you spell it. It’s for squares. No spells but get spell redux and a couple of abilities.

[Methais]

I don't mind a little bit, in fact I prefer it be at least some bit of work to get in, but at least be creative about it please. There is some amazing design in Gemstone regarding access to hunting grounds, non of which involve swimming, except for RRs cool swim design, and the Rift pool access is pretty cool too, though almost everyone bypasses it.

Nelemar requires swimming if you're not in Voln.

People will just script all that dumb shit anyway. It should at least come with a "better" option also available, like how SoS does with periapts.

[Mobius1]

Nelemar requires swimming if you're not in Voln.

People will just script all that dumb shit anyway. It should at least come with a "better" option also available, like how SoS does with periapts.

I agree with it being stupid. What's worse is I think Estild and Naijin are trying to minimize the benefits of Voln, too, and thus are not making symbol of seeking work in their new areas. Their usual "We think X is overpowered, so we are going to impose our own nerfs on you in our hunting areas."

I'm kind of getting sick of arguing with Naijin (SpiffyJR) and his brown nosing buddies. He acts like he's the Warrior/rogue advocate, yet he plays mutant specs on both and has a very specific view of how they rogues/warriors should be, and rates a lot of skills and abilities way higher than they should be. He plays his rogue with his left hand empty and ambushes with a dagger, and spends like 2 years to complete a hunt because of all the cautiousness, setup moves, etc.. He also says he hunts with no spells. Interestingly, after sooo many arguments with him, I literally just yesterday found out that his rogue is not even capped, and his experience with a capped rogue was just messing around a little before he released PSM3. I mean, he literally asked when testing something, if 500 AS is a good representation for a capped rogue, lol. He's been raving about Spell Thieve, for example, where you have to get 5 ranks in it just for a spell to last 2 minutes. So you can take twice as long to hunt while you steal a bunch of silly little spells from critters. Maybe if the spells lasted as long as when they are normally casted, I could stomach it. But 2 minutes? Typical Naijin mentality.

I've been butting heads on Discord over spell sever, which literally has no impact on Midgar because he is nearly 1x spells (working on the last bit), but I think it's absurd the direction it's trying to send squares. But then I will literally have people defend it, who are literally non-KS non-spell trained characters, and will actually be the ones being hurt the most by it. Help me help you, for God's sake! But according to Naijin, squares are perfectly balanced without any spells on, even without KS. I don't know how he could even make that claim with a straight face.

[Methais]

I agree with it being stupid. What's worse is I think Estild and Naijin are trying to minimize the benefits of Voln, too, and thus are not making symbol of seeking work in their new areas. Their usual "We think X is overpowered, so we are going to impose our own nerfs on you in our hunting areas."

I'm kind of getting sick of arguing with Naijin (SpiffyJR) and his brown nosing buddies. He acts like he's the Warrior/rogue advocate, yet he plays mutant specs on both and has a very specific view of how they rogues/warriors should be, and rates a lot of skills and abilities way higher than they should be. He plays his rogue with his left hand empty and ambushes with a dagger, and spends like 2 years to complete a hunt because of all the cautiousness, setup moves, etc.. He also says he hunts with no spells. Interestingly, after sooo many arguments with him, I literally just yesterday found out that his rogue is not even capped, and his experience with a capped rogue was just messing around a little before he released PSM3. I mean, he literally asked when testing something, if 500 AS is a good representation for a capped rogue, lol. He's been raving about Spell Thieve, for example, where you have to get 5 ranks in it just for a spell to last 2 minutes. So you can take twice as long to hunt while you steal a bunch of silly little spells from critters. Maybe if the spells lasted as long as when they are normally casted, I could stomach it. But 2 minutes? Typical Naijin mentality.

I've been butting heads on Discord over spell sever, which literally has no impact on Midgar because he is nearly 1x spells (working on the last bit), but I think it's absurd the direction it's trying to send squares. But then I will literally have people defend it, who are literally non-KS non-spell trained characters, and will actually be the ones being hurt the most by it. Help me help you, for God's sake! But according to Naijin, squares are perfectly balanced without any spells on, even without KS. I don't know how he could even make that claim with a straight face.

Naijin might be a good coder, but I'm pretty sure he struggles with basic every day things, like operating a toaster.

[Mobius1]

Naijin might be a good coder, but I'm pretty sure he struggles with basic every day things, like operating a toaster.

Or with arguing with me over how things work, even though he is a GM yet is still wrong. It cracks me up how often people argue against true statements on Discord.

[Archigeek]

I prefer a place being at least a little challenging for scripting bots to hunt. There are plenty of easy-mode places for them to "hunt," and if that's what they're into, they can all just stay in Nelemar and OTF. A few hooks that require a little bit of work keep the hunting area a lot more inviting to me.

I don't see Hinterwinds turning into a script bot zone because I think it's going to be too difficult for most to bother with, unless the loot turns out to be good. It was good when I was in there, but the test server is not the place to gauge loot.

If they'd just make the access more interesting than yet another swim I'd be happy with that. Hell, just put a toll bridge across the river, or walk on the ice with a chance you fall through. Either of those would make more sense for what is essentially a northern Canada river. No one in their right mind would swim an ice-filled river, so it ends up not being immersive from a story point of view.

[Methais]

Or with arguing with me over how things work, even though he is a GM yet is still wrong. It cracks me up how often people argue against true statements on Discord.

Half the people on Discord will cut off their own dick if it means getting GM attention. Discord is cancer.

[Mobius1]

I prefer a place being at least a little challenging for scripting bots to hunt. There are plenty of easy-mode places for them to "hunt," and if that's what they're into, they can all just stay in Nelemar and OTF. A few hooks that require a little bit of work keep the hunting area a lot more inviting to me.

I don't see Hinterwinds turning into a script bot zone because I think it's going to be too difficult for most to bother with, unless the loot turns out to be good. It was good when I was in there, but the test server is not the place to gauge loot.

If they'd just make the access more interesting than yet another swim I'd be happy with that. Hell, just put a toll bridge across the river, or walk on the ice with a chance you fall through. Either of those would make more sense for what is essentially a northern Canada river. No one in their right mind would swim an ice-filled river, so it ends up not being immersive from a story point of view.

I agree with making things more difficult to discourage scripting. It's really the only good solution. On the other hand when 90% of the population scripts that makes me the minority on this! :D

Hell, I actually agree with what Divergence is trying to do (Granted some of it may need fine tuning to be balanced), I just feel it's the wrong way to do it. I also agree that the KF hunting ground is needed, even though I am one of those abusing the bandit gravy train. I actually agree with a lot of things they want to change or improve - My problem is that no vision is perfect, including theirs, but if you point out any flaw, their way is beyond reproach. God forbid you have an issue with something they created themselves (besides bugs).

What I do like about Naijin, is he shares a lot of info on mechanics that we otherwise had no idea about because they had never been divulged before. And he does put in a lot of work, and even if I don't agree with a lot of stuff, he's definitely helped put warriors and rogues in an overall better place. I guess he also liked the +SMR idea for a rogue service skill, and is working on a proposal for that.

Basically, I get the feeling he is willing to listen to good ideas, but only if they do not conflict with his personal vision or show discontent towards systems he personally worked on. Obviously I am rather opinionated about squares myself (and more specifically rogue mechanics), but a lot of that comes off poorly because it always ends up being me vs. the chat room. I think one of the most toxic things about Gemstone, is that because of the way development works here, the community is vile towards anything they feel is not worth dev time (based generally on their own selfish viewpoints), even if the point is actually valid, or the proposition is not a bad idea. And the most vocal are often the minority viewpoint, but still manage to bog things down in the mire of arguments, and makes it seem as if they are actually the majority view.

It's almost a running joke on Rogue Discord now, how often I complain about the environs in the Rift. It's especially awful on Plane 4, though in the Scatter it most surely is a huge pain in the ass, too. But then a handful of rogues that hunt there are very vocal on Discord about how it's not an issue for them. Yet one of them dies like he's freaking fresh capped, and another didn't even know what environs were until I explained it, even though he has hunted there more than anyone else I know. Yet conversely, I talk to any of my rogue friends who DON'T hunt the rift, and they are like, "Screw that, it's too much of a pain in the ass." But now I'm basically perceived as whining over nothing, whereas I scratch my head how these people don't curse at their screen every hunt because of the mechanic, like I do!

[drumpel]

I prefer a place being at least a little challenging for scripting bots to hunt. There are plenty of easy-mode places for them to "hunt," and if that's what they're into, they can all just stay in Nelemar and OTF. A few hooks that require a little bit of work keep the hunting area a lot more inviting to me.

I don't see Hinterwinds turning into a script bot zone because I think it's going to be too difficult for most to bother with, unless the loot turns out to be good. It was good when I was in there, but the test server is not the place to gauge loot.

If they'd just make the access more interesting than yet another swim I'd be happy with that. Hell, just put a toll bridge across the river, or walk on the ice with a chance you fall through. Either of those would make more sense for what is essentially a northern Canada river. No one in their right mind would swim an ice-filled river, so it ends up not being immersive from a story point of view.

Test server is not a place to really gauge anything other than for testing odd stuff out.

If you want, you can get amazing loot while hunting OTF while in the test server. I even had a creature drop some kind of zelnorn weapon while I was testing out a couple of ideas on a build. I didn't know they could spawn with that type of material weapon or maybe the treasure limits aren't turned on and anything can happen on the test server?

[Berost]

I agree with making things more difficult to discourage scripting. It's really the only good solution. On the other hand when 90% of the population scripts that makes me the minority on this! :D

Hell, I actually agree with what Divergence is trying to do (Granted some of it may need fine tuning to be balanced), I just feel it's the wrong way to do it. I also agree that the KF hunting ground is needed, even though I am one of those abusing the bandit gravy train. I actually agree with a lot of things they want to change or improve - My problem is that no vision is perfect, including theirs, but if you point out any flaw, their way is beyond reproach. God forbid you have an issue with something they created themselves (besides bugs).

What I do like about Naijin, is he shares a lot of info on mechanics that we otherwise had no idea about because they had never been divulged before. And he does put in a lot of work, and even if I don't agree with a lot of stuff, he's definitely helped put warriors and rogues in an overall better place. I guess he also liked the +SMR idea for a rogue service skill, and is working on a proposal for that.

Basically, I get the feeling he is willing to listen to good ideas, but only if they do not conflict with his personal vision or show discontent towards systems he personally worked on. Obviously I am rather opinionated about squares myself (and more specifically rogue mechanics), but a lot of that comes off poorly because it always ends up being me vs. the chat room. I think one of the most toxic things about Gemstone, is that because of the way development works here, the community is vile towards anything they feel is not worth dev time (based generally on their own selfish viewpoints), even if the point is actually valid, or the proposition is not a bad idea. And the most vocal are often the minority viewpoint, but still manage to bog things down in the mire of arguments, and makes it seem as if they are actually the majority view.

It's almost a running joke on Rogue Discord now, how often I complain about the environs in the Rift. It's especially awful on Plane 4, though in the Scatter it most surely is a huge pain in the ass, too. But then a handful of rogues that hunt there are very vocal on Discord about how it's not an issue for them. Yet one of them dies like he's freaking fresh capped, and another didn't even know what environs were until I explained it, even though he has hunted there more than anyone else I know. Yet conversely, I talk to any of my rogue friends who DON'T hunt the rift, and they are like, "Screw that, it's too much of a pain in the ass." But now I'm basically perceived as whining over nothing, whereas I scratch my head how these people don't curse at their screen every hunt because of the mechanic, like I do!

You sir, lose your PC Points for the day. That was far too balanced and well said. Not even any name calling or swearing. For shame.

[Dendum]

An ethereal triton psionicist points an ethereal, clawed finger toward you!
CS: +457 - TD: +321 + CvA: +2 + d100: +98 == +236
Warding failed!
You suddenly feel very drained and confused as your memories slip away.
[You lose 8 levels!]

So that mechanic is...interesting to say the least.

I have found the most difficult things, for my character, are the triton fanatic
They seem to hit my head with a Hammer of Kai a lot so I am guessing they are able to aim for that location.

Otherwise this (the atoll) is a very manageable hunting ground if being self spelled and divergence don't stop you.

As to the bandit train, if you are running a 5 man MA group I am thinking you could still keep up bandits 100% because much like Sol Haven there are less types of bounties on KF (No escort) so your chance of getting Bandits on at least one of your characters in the two attempts you will have from Saturated to Clear as a Bell is very very high. For Solo or smaller MA group players your Bandit Train days may have gotten a bit harder without spending Simucoins or meeting up with some other players.

[Methais]

An ethereal triton psionicist points an ethereal, clawed finger toward you!
CS: +457 - TD: +321 + CvA: +2 + d100: +98 == +236
Warding failed!
You suddenly feel very drained and confused as your memories slip away.
[You lose 8 levels!]

So that mechanic is...interesting to say the least.

I have found the most difficult things, for my character, are the triton fanatic
They seem to hit my head with a Hammer of Kai a lot so I am guessing they are able to aim for that location.

Otherwise this is a very manageable hunting ground if being self spelled and divergence don't stop you.

As to the bandit train, if you are running a 5 man MA group I am thinking you could still keep up bandits 100% because much like Sol Haven there are less types of bounties on KF (No escort) so your chance of getting Bandits on at least one of your characters in the two attempts you will have from Saturated to Clear as a Bell is very very high. For Solo or smaller MA group players your Bandit Train days may have gotten a bit harder without spending Simucoins or meeting up with some other players.


Coming to Hinterwilds Phase II:

An ethereal triton psionicist points an ethereal, clawed finger toward you!
CS: +457 - TD: +321 + CvA: +2 + d100: +98 == +236
Warding failed!
You suddenly feel very drained and confused as your memories slip away.
[Your character has been permanently deleted! Type OK to return to the Character Manager.]

[Archigeek]

An ethereal triton psionicist points an ethereal, clawed finger toward you!
CS: +457 - TD: +321 + CvA: +2 + d100: +98 == +236
Warding failed!
You suddenly feel very drained and confused as your memories slip away.
[You lose 8 levels!]

So that mechanic is...interesting to say the least.

I have found the most difficult things, for my character, are the triton fanatic
They seem to hit my head with a Hammer of Kai a lot so I am guessing they are able to aim for that location.

Otherwise this (the atoll) is a very manageable hunting ground if being self spelled and divergence don't stop you.

As to the bandit train, if you are running a 5 man MA group I am thinking you could still keep up bandits 100% because much like Sol Haven there are less types of bounties on KF (No escort) so your chance of getting Bandits on at least one of your characters in the two attempts you will have from Saturated to Clear as a Bell is very very high. For Solo or smaller MA group players your Bandit Train days may have gotten a bit harder without spending Simucoins or meeting up with some other players.

They have that in Hinterwinds. It's pretty alarming when it happens. One of the nice things about Hinterwinds is that it's quite large with multiple ways in and out of hunting areas, so you can find places to escape to, to let things like that wear off.

[Viekn]

An ethereal triton psionicist points an ethereal, clawed finger toward you!

That's bad writing. If the critter is already an "ethereal" triton psionicist, it's finger is already going to be ethereal, no need for the redundancy.

[Tgo01]

That's bad writing. If the critter is already an "ethereal" triton psionicist, it's finger is already going to be ethereal, no need for the redundancy.

A clawed, ethereal triton psionicist points an ethereal, clawed finger toward you!

[Viekn]

A clawed, ethereal triton psionicist points an ethereal, clawed finger toward you!

Might as well just go for it at that point: "An ethereal triton psionicist points an ethereal triton psionicist finger toward you!"

[Taernath]

Might as well just go for it at that point: "An ethereal triton psionicist points an ethereal triton psionicist finger toward you!"

https://i.imgflip.com/4msoo6.png

[Maerit]

An ethereal triton psionicist points an ethereal, clawed finger toward you!
CS: +457 - TD: +321 + CvA: +2 + d100: +98 == +236
Warding failed!
You suddenly feel very drained and confused as your memories slip away.
[You lose 8 levels!]


It's Mindwipe (1225), and you can just dispel it from yourself w/ any dispel and channel or KS "feat dispel". The mutants in Hinterwilds also cast this spell, and maybe the Disciples as well.

I found the auto-crowd press from the Brawlers to be more annoying. It means that the second they engage you, you have no choice but to fight them. That means you can't just wander around the zone looking for your bounty target if you bump into a Brawler, and it jabs you, you're trapped in that room until you deal with them.

[drumpel]

It's Mindwipe (1225), and you can just dispel it from yourself w/ any dispel and channel or KS "feat dispel". The mutants in Hinterwilds also cast this spell, and maybe the Disciples as well.

I found the auto-crowd press from the Brawlers to be more annoying. It means that the second they engage you, you have no choice but to fight them. That means you can't just wander around the zone looking for your bounty target if you bump into a Brawler, and it jabs you, you're trapped in that room until you deal with them.

Can't you make use of that cman that let's you disengage from a target? The one that we were told was a big thing for pures to be able to use with the last adjustment of stuff from PSM3?

[Maerit]

Can't you make use of that cman that let's you disengage from a target? The one that we were told was a big thing for pures to be able to use with the last adjustment of stuff from PSM3?

I think you can just disable them, but either way you have to do something. You can't just walk on as many are used to doing. It's ultimately a delaying factor to efficiently hunt for a specific target.

[Dendum]

The Atoll is now live.
You can use ;atoll to get to it from Kraken Falls


Retser — Today at 10:03 PM
Hey Everyone, the Atoll hunting grounds outside of Kraken's Fall is now live in all instances. This was a corroborative effort between GM Naijin and I. Special thanks to GM Auchand, GM Xynwen, and GM Tivvy for helping it come together.


9917

[Methais]

Are there many warriors with spells, or are most just using KS in HW? I know as a rogue we can at least lean on stealth, but also learning spells is cheaper for us.

It drives me crazy with the direction they are going with this spell sever BS. It encourages either learning spells, or going KS, when most people are in neither camp. So are they trying to say that learning spells is expected of squares now? Obviously this goes beyond just HW, as Atoll has it, and Naijin said all new hunting grounds will have it (And Divergence, which is his way of circumventing the usual steps in order to impose his and Estild's vision. This is a whole other discussion in itself, and regardless of whether the nerfs are needed, I personally feel they should not go into effect in normal hunting areas until they are put into effect in ALL hunting areas. But whatever, if they want no one to hunt their new Atoll or any other new hunting grounds, that's their choice.).

After a couple days in HW and running around Atoll today, I can safely say fuck all this Divergence trash.

No "challenge" issues in Atoll, which was expected since it's just a lazily reskinned Nelemar (lol Naijin), and HW isn't too bad other than some retarded DS/TD numbers in the higher level areas, but holy shit Divergence makes hunting a wizard boring and tedious as fuckall and will only encourage even more scripting. And for what? So Estild and Naijin can have their feelgood "got em" moment for making things less fun for the 8890472302nd time?

The loot being good so far (5k skins, etc.) is meaningless because of the loot cap, the gigas items are gimmimcky and useless everywhere else, and while the HW area itself is cool, Divergence makes actual hunting without a script boring as fuckall.

The biggest "challenge" so far is not falling asleep.

TLDR: Divergence is cancer and makes hunting without a script boring as fuckall. Which makes sense, since Naijin and Estild are also cancer with their never ending list of shitty ideas.

[Mobius1]

Someone posted pretty much the same exact thing in HW Discord, that the mechanics essentially made playing a wizard not fun.

My problem with divergence, is what I said in this thread earlier. Maybe changes are needed? Maybe they are not? But why do they have to be forced into the game this way? It's clearly a way for them to shove it into the game without using all the usual channels. But I like to think those channels exist for a reason!

So why are they able to get away with it? I guess the reasoning is it's their hunting ground, so they can make it as hard as they want?

But hell, Naijin posted the numbers and rogues were still last even with Divergence, in HW. So what are we, chopped liver?

[Methais]

Someone posted pretty much the same exact thing in HW Discord, that the mechanics essentially made playing a wizard not fun.

My problem with divergence, is what I said in this thread earlier. Maybe changes are needed? Maybe they are not? But why do they have to be forced into the game this way? It's clearly a way for them to shove it into the game without using all the usual channels. But I like to think those channels exist for a reason!

So why are they able to get away with it? I guess the reasoning is it's their hunting ground, so they can make it as hard as they want?

But hell, Naijin posted the numbers and rogues were still last even with Divergence, in HW. So what are we, chopped liver?

Dev does whatever the fuck they want these days with basically no oversight is how they get away with it.

Estild and Naijin might be good coders, but they're fucking horrible game designers who think they're god's gift to game design, so good luck questioning anything they do, especially on Discord where their army of sycophant retards will pile in and start white knighting in hopes that they'll get some GM attention while other people are watching.

All this Divergence trash is completely unnecessary and only makes shit boring. Once the novelty of it being a new area wears off, unless they add in some nice carrots at some point, most people will probably leave.

[Mobius1]

Atoll seems like it's going to be great for a few people, and suck balls for most. It should be a freaking cakewalk for me as a spell trained rogue, but for non-spell trained squares it's probably a whole lot of NOPE. The two deaths I saw happen this morning were from the 718 at like 450ish CS.

I still have yet to try it, but I will this morning. I am worried there's too much critter variance and bounties will take too long. Also, the assassin bounties are probably best traded.

[beldannon5]

Brought to you by the people that took away haste, 711, and more.

[Methais]

Brought to you by the people that took away haste, 711, and hunting being fun.

Fixed.

[Mobius1]

Welcome to GS beta test. You get to beta test your nerfs on Live.

[drumpel]

TLDR: Divergence is cancer and makes hunting without a script boring as fuckall. Which makes sense, since Naijin and Estild are also cancer with their never ending list of shitty ideas.

I'm sitting here reading through some posts and I see you mention "divergence". I have no idea what the hell you're talking about...I guess I don't pay as much attention to the game anymore these days. Surprisingly divergence is actually posted on the gswiki!

Bard spell failure = welcome to every other class and their spell failures! Suck it, bitches!

1030 - too strong. Like 950, too strong. Make it weaker to slow you down to enjoy the atmosphere of the hunting ground.

1035 - too fast! You're too fast. Don't be fast. It's no fun being that fast. Slower is better. You'll like slower because it's more fun.

240 - add 60 second cooldown after your spell duration expires. You kill too fast. No good. Slow is better!

Rapid Fire - time to make you bitches feel like you're using 1035! HAHAHA!

Core Tap - 5 minute cooldown? What a joke.

Minor Steam - slight mana bump to use, not the end of the world. I'd still rather blast things with 510.


Thankfully I don't have any intentions of enjoying the reduced fun of these hunting areas with my wizards. I know I'll be feeling left out, but it will have to be something I learn to live with. You guys will have to enjoy the nerfs on your own.

[Methais]

I'm sitting here reading through some posts and I see you mention "divergence". I have no idea what the hell you're talking about...I guess I don't pay as much attention to the game anymore these days. Surprisingly divergence is actually posted on the gswiki!

Bard spell failure = welcome to every other class and their spell failures! Suck it, bitches!

1030 - too strong. Like 950, too strong. Make it weaker to slow you down to enjoy the atmosphere of the hunting ground.

1035 - too fast! You're too fast. Don't be fast. It's no fun being that fast. Slower is better. You'll like slower because it's more fun.

240 - add 60 second cooldown after your spell duration expires. You kill too fast. No good. Slow is better!

Rapid Fire - time to make you bitches feel like you're using 1035! HAHAHA!

Core Tap - 5 minute cooldown? What a joke.

Minor Steam - slight mana bump to use, not the end of the world. I'd still rather blast things with 510.


Thankfully I don't have any intentions of enjoying the reduced fun of these hunting areas with my wizards. I know I'll be feeling left out, but it will have to be something I learn to live with. You guys will have to enjoy the nerfs on your own.

You're really not missing shit. The area itself is cool, but Divergence sucks all the fun out of it and it's boring as fuck as a result. I already left.

Slower exp per hour too from what most people are saying.

[Tgo01]

Thankfully I don't have any intentions of enjoying the reduced fun of these hunting areas with my wizards. I know I'll be feeling left out, but it will have to be something I learn to live with. You guys will have to enjoy the nerfs on your own.

The GMs said those nerfs are going game wide someday. Probably soon now that divergence hunting grounds are a thing.

[drumpel]

The GMs said those nerfs are going game wide someday. Probably soon now that divergence hunting grounds are a thing.

That'll be day I log off for good if they put that lame shit game wide.

If they wanted to slow things down they could just get rid of Lumnis EXP bonus. I could live with that. But slowing down hunting so you have more chances to get smoked by the stupid tactics of hunting is stupid.

[Tgo01]

That'll be day I log off for good if they put that lame shit game wide.

If they wanted to slow things down they could just get rid of Lumnis EXP bonus. I could live with that. But slowing down hunting so you have more chances to get smoked by the stupid tactics of hunting is stupid.

Their entire reasoning is dumb too.

"ZOMG! People have too much mana!"

So your solution is dumb hard cooldowns?

"No human could possibly react fast enough to a 1 second RT!"

...really?

[Methais]

Their entire reasoning is dumb too.

"ZOMG! People have too much mana!"

So your solution is dumb hard cooldowns?

"No human could possibly react fast enough to a 1 second RT!"

...really?

Was that really their reasoning? Too much mana? :rofl:




That'll be day I log off for good if they put that lame shit game wide.

If they wanted to slow things down they could just get rid of Lumnis EXP bonus. I could live with that. But slowing down hunting so you have more chances to get smoked by the stupid tactics of hunting is stupid.

It gets even better...that Atoll area in KF...literally the only reason they created it (and it's just a lazily reskinned Nelemar for the most part, but with Divergence for extra stupidity) was because people were having too much fun running bandit bounties all day, since before Atoll, that was the only bounty you'd get in KF.


If Wyrom doesn't step up and at least do something to prevent Divergence from going game wide, that might actually be it for me. If these idiot devs wanna dump that shit in any new areas, then fine whatever, but don't fuck over all of the existing areas too just because they lack the creativity to do anything that makes the game more fun and wanna shoehorn all of their shitty and lazy ideas up everyone's ass because reasons.

[Tgo01]

Was that really their reasoning? Too much mana? :rofl:

Estild said that in regards to 240.

He said something like when they first designed 240 they figured the high mana cost would make it so people couldn't run it all the time, but now that people have so much mana/mana regen that post cap people can finish a hunt while keeping 240 up the whole time, so their solution is to slap a dumb cooldown on it.

So basically they gave players options to make their characters are powerful, and now that players spent all of the time and effort to make their characters more powerful they don't like it so they are nerfing all of the fun spells.

My very post cap empath gets 115 mana per pulse off a node, 240 has a 30 second duration, that's 80 mana to keep it up per minute. Pulses are 2 minutes aren't they? That's 160 mana to keep 240 up for an entire pulse. That's just to keep 240 up, saying nothing of casting other spells.

I have also put a lot of time and effort to get my empath to the point where he can get 115 mana per pulse off a node. My empath is demonstrably more powerful than a level 80 empath who probably can't keep 240 up for an entire hunt. But I guess now my much more powerful empath has to be put on the same level playing field as a level 80 empath because feelings or something?

[Methais]

Estild said that in regards to 240.

He said something like when they first designed 240 they figured the high mana cost would make it so people couldn't run it all the time, but now that people have so much mana/mana regen that post cap people can finish a hunt while keeping 240 up the whole time, so their solution is to slap a dumb cooldown on it.

So basically they gave players options to make their characters are powerful, and now that players spent all of the time and effort to make their characters more powerful they don't like it so they are nerfing all of the fun spells.

My very post cap empath gets 115 mana per pulse off a node, 240 has a 30 second duration, that's 80 mana to keep it up per minute. Pulses are 2 minutes aren't they? That's 160 mana to keep 240 up for an entire pulse. That's just to keep 240 up, saying nothing of casting other spells.

I have also put a lot of time and effort to get my empath to the point where he can get 115 mana per pulse off a node. My empath is demonstrably more powerful than a level 80 empath who probably can't keep 240 up for an entire hunt. But I guess now my much more powerful empath has to be put on the same level playing field as a level 80 empath because feelings or something?

How much you wanna bet next DR has Divergence bypassing items?

"Buy this runestaff for 10m BS and enjoy 1 second cast RT again with Rapid Fire in Divergence areas!"

[Stanley Burrell]

Are HiWi kills giving the Big Game Hunter ASC Milestone point?

That shit pissed me off when I got mine for my two capped characters (one who's highest kill is 135 + another with a level 150 high kill [which is what I believe the milestone should be primarily addressing]) and then it got pulled, which made sense for my level 0 second-set-of-eyes/silver + item handler; who, for whatever reason, got the Big Game Hunter too while it was rolling out, but I thought for certain that I had gotten it legitimately for my big dudes! :'(

[Methais]

Are HiWi kills giving the Big Game Hunter ASC Milestone point?

That shit pissed me off when I got mine for my two capped characters (one who's highest kill is 135 + another with a level 150 high kill [which is what I believe the milestone should be primarily addressing]) and then it got pulled, which made sense for my level 0 second-set-of-eyes/silver + item handler; who, for whatever reason, got the Big Game Hunter too while it was rolling out, but I thought for certain that I had gotten it legitimately for my big dudes! :'(

wat

[Lavastene]

That shit pissed me off when I got mine for my two capped characters (one who's highest kill is 135 + another with a level 150 high kill [which is what I believe the milestone should be primarily addressing]) and then it got pulled, which made sense for my level 0 second-set-of-eyes/silver + item handler; who, for whatever reason, got the Big Game Hunter too while it was rolling out, but I thought for certain that I had gotten it legitimately for my big dudes! :'(
I thought the same thing for my 3 capped/near capped characters and for my 3 that are mid 60s I was like this has to be a bug. I probably won't be taking the trek to either place at this stage. Not sure it beats working through the areas that I already know.

[Methais]

It turns out that Divergence being applied to "old" capped areas isn't a thing anymore. It used to be, but now it's not, so that's a relief, at least until the real pure nerfs happen.

[Tgo01]

It turns out that Divergence being applied to "old" capped areas isn't a thing anymore. It used to be, but now it's not, so that's a relief, at least until the real pure nerfs happen.

Wow really? That's good. Last I heard it was destined to be a game wide nerf someday.

I'm not used to the GMs not fucking things up. This has been a crazy past couple of months.

[Methais]

Wow really? That's good. Last I heard it was destined to be a game wide nerf someday.

I'm not used to the GMs not fucking things up. This has been a crazy past couple of months.

Apparently that got shut down.

But...all that Divergence really is is a placeholder for the inevitable pure nerfs anyway, so the long term end result will still be nerfs. :(

[Stanley Burrell]

wat

Yeah.

So that was a pretty fucking autistic post, my b :lol2:

[Tgo01]

Apparently that got shut down.

But...all that Divergence really is is a placeholder for the inevitable pure nerfs anyway, so the long term end result will still be nerfs. :(

Oh so the nerfs are going through anyways, they just aren't gonna refer to the changes as "divergence" changes? That sounds about right.

[Mobius1]

Naijin said on discord today, that Divergence is basically using Live as a beta test for nerfs, so they can decide how to tweak them before applying them game wide.

[Tgo01]

Naijin said on discord today, that Divergence is basically using Live as a beta test for nerfs, so they can decide how to tweak them before applying them game wide.

BOO!

[Methais]

Naijin said on discord today, that Divergence is basically using Live as a beta test for nerfs, so they can decide how to tweak them before applying them game wide.

The best way for people to say fuck that shit is to just not go to HW and let their big new creation collect dust and rot. I went back last night for a little bit just to give it another shot and nope...still boring as fuckall because of Divergence.

I don't know what Simu's obsession is with slowing down combat and actively working to make things as boring and tedious as opssible, unless Estild and Naijin are just literal retards or something, but most people aren't retards that can only handle 3 commands per minute without a script during combat.

Naijin also seems somewhat clueless about a lot of things/professions, based on just random clueless things I've seen him say on Discord. So clearly he should be playing a major role in nerfing all the fun out of the game.

https://www.goiowaawesome.com/sites/default/files/c/2021/11/strangegame.png