Gemstone players will drop by half | no more f2ps?

[Xcalibur1]

From Wyrom:

F2P in GS is meant to be an extended trial. If someone is playing 30 days in a row and buying the exp tokens each day, they aren't the target audience. F2P is targeted toward casual play that might get 2 days a week to play. Definitely can use some improvements still, but the costs have all been lowered across the board for F2P for that purpose.

While DragonRealms may come off as a better F2P experience from a monetization standpoint, it's actually not successful on the business side and doesn't really work well there. GS has definitely taken the lead on F2P between the games.

The F2P subscription to a real new player doesn't feel like a crawl. It's once they get exposed to this sort of chatter that they become jaded about it. Just after a dozen or so exit surveys I conducted years ago with a group of new players that tried the game out. Many stated that they didn't feel the experience was bad until they were told by established players it was bad.

The other issue is the mule/MAing F2P accounts, which is something we'll probably be solving once Finnia launches. Using multiple F2P accounts was never an intended use of that subscription model.

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MY PART

In other words

1) No more free lockers that can walk
2) No more cheap silvers here and there
3) No more access to low level spells for your tunes
4) No more try outs this or that build

In other words, SIMU wants to cash in more by forcing people to get locker rooms with p2w, remove table zombies, remove area spawners (parking a f2p toon in an area to stimulate more spawning) and so on.

Ahh SIMU.. so greedy.

[Tgo01]

Where exactly are you seeing this announcement? And where does the announcement end and your commentary begin? :p

Also it's not that the F2P model is bad per se, it's just why bother with the headache of much slower experience gain, having to purchase a pass for this and a pass for that, when for just 15 bucks a month you get the full experience?

Doesn't the experience gain slow to a crawl once you hit like level 50?

Sure if someone doesn't really care about advancing that fast and they just enjoy the roleplaying or combat aspect of the game then F2P is great.

[Bryce]

There is a wizard around level 70 that is F2P. He just plays for fun. Last I heard he gets around 12 exp a pulse in a super node


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[Bryce]

There is a wizard around level 70 that is F2P. He just plays for fun. Last I heard he gets around 12 exp a pulse in a super node


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What does no cheap silvers here or there mean?


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[gilchristr]

Geez I saw the thread title and I think there was a new covid variant...

[Lavastene]

There is a wizard around level 70 that is F2P. He just plays for fun. Last I heard he gets around 12 exp a pulse in a super node

I've got some characters that get around 12 exp a pulse on a super node. Mind you they are around level 60 and are purposefully set for full Ascension. But it really isn't that much of a crawl, they actually level way more frequently than I want them to.

[Methais]

Many stated that they didn't feel the experience was bad until they were told by established players it was bad.

I mean...if someone eats moldy food and doesn't realize that eating mold is bad because they don't know any better, that's not someone else's fault for telling them that eating mold is bad.

Making someone less ignorant about how things work is a bad thing now I guess.

What the fuck is Finnia though?

[Bryce]

I mean...if someone eats moldy food and doesn't realize that eating mold is bad, that's not someone else's fault for telling them that eating mold is bad.

Making someone less ignorant about how things work is a bad thing now I guess.

What the fuck is Finnia though?

I believe Finnia is the new level 1-20 hunting zone for new players


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[Gelston]

I mean...if someone eats moldy food and doesn't realize that eating mold is bad, that's not someone else's fault for telling them that eating mold is bad.

Making someone less ignorant about how things work is a bad thing now I guess.

What the fuck is Finnia though?

Yes, but you're being told by people that are gorging themselves on moldy food that moldy food is bad.

[Tgo01]

I believe Finnia is the new level 1-20 hunting zone for new players


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The game needs yet another low level hunting area?

[Bryce]

In fairness as long as the mold does not produce mycotoxins it’s perfectly safe to eat. Also assuming no natural allergies to mold


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[Taernath]

The game needs yet another low level hunting area?

Lack of low level hunting areas is the number 1 killer of subs, or something.

We could have been the next WoW but rats are too passé.

[Rinualdo]

It's not a new hunting area in the traditional sense- its a new player experience and self contained island. It would be akin to a starter zone in a traditional MMO

[Methais]

Yes, but you're being told by people that are gorging themselves on moldy food that moldy food is bad.

Ok then...let's use cooking a meal via a campfire that was started by rubbing sticks together after going around to gather wood and all that, and then someone introduces them to electricity and a microwave.

[Methais]

It's not a new hunting area in the traditional sense- its a new player experience and self contained island. It would be akin to a starter zone in a traditional MMO

I don't get it though...how has Simu still not figured out that 0 advertising or marketing = few to 0 actual new players?

Simu's been so hung up on "attracting new players" for decades now but the entire time they've refused to actually do anything that would reliably draw in new players.

Where are all these new players they're aiming for going to come from? Not advertising, because Simu is too cheap and stupid to market anything.

[Tgo01]

Simu's been so hung up on "attracting new players" for decades now but the entire time they've refused to actually do anything that would reliably draw in new players.

Apparently blaming longtime players for a lack of new players is the way to go because those longtime players had the nerve to point out the drawbacks of F2P.


Not advertising, because Simu is too cheap and stupid to market anything.

I just thought of this...don't they make other games? They had a somewhat successful mobile game, they have that shooter game coming out. Why the hell don't they advertise their MUDs on these games? You know, the games that made them the company that they are today?

Or maybe they do. I highly doubt it though. Simutronics almost seems ashamed of their MUDs even though they are the only reason they were able to fund Hero Engine and sell it and make a fortune to fund their other graphical games.

[Methais]

I just thought of this...don't they make other games? They had a somewhat successful mobile game, they have that shooter game coming out. Why the hell don't they advertise their MUDs on these games? You know, the games that made them the company that they are today?

They're too stupid. That's literally all there is to it.

Years ago when someone suggested that they should fucking advertise, their reply was (paraphrased) "Well since there's not a 100% chance it will pay off, we're not going to do that."

That's literally how Simu views marketing.

[BLZrizz]

They're too stupid. That's literally all there is to it.

Years ago when someone suggested that they should fucking advertise, their reply was (paraphrased) "Well since there's not a 100% chance it will pay off, we're not going to do that."

That's literally how Simu views marketing.

Have to agree with this. Simu's marketing approach seems so short-sighted. If it takes a rare type of random weirdo to just happen on GS, then it makes sense to cast a wide net. I discovered GS as I was logging out of AOL and just clicked the "try GS" button and was hooked after that. But that was purely because they decided to get exposure on a broad platform.

But it also seems consistent with their whole PR branch and its capabilities or lack thereof. Consider the number of times they've made decisions that the playerbase forewarned them about, then they made the decision anyway, seemed surprised that people were upset, then ended up having to backtrack. (See wizard nerfs '16, bards nerfs '21, dark & dangerous, Dreavenings/invoker, HESS spins, etc.).

[drumpel]

I've got some characters that get around 12 exp a pulse on a super node. Mind you they are around level 60 and are purposefully set for full Ascension. But it really isn't that much of a crawl, they actually level way more frequently than I want them to.


My warmage is level 60, got his exp split 40/60 (normal/asc) and sometimes I think it'll take forever to level, but the last 30K has gone done pretty quick. Just 18k away from leveling and 12k away from an ATP.

I don't play him that much, I agree that it still doesn't take that long to level him. I wonder how I'll feel about it once he hits level 80 and has a 20/80 split.

[Tgo01]

12 experience per pulse might not be that bad, but that's less than a third that a paid account can earn per pulse. So by the time a F2P account reaches 10 million experience they could have had 30 million experience had they been playing a paid account. It would actually be even higher than 30 million because I don't think there's a floor to how low your experience absorption can get on a F2P account, I think eventually you would be earning 1 experience per pulse. I could be wrong about a lack of a floor though.

[Gelston]

Have to agree with this. Simu's marketing approach seems so short-sighted. If it takes a rare type of random weirdo to just happen on GS, then it makes sense to cast a wide net. I discovered GS as I was logging out of AOL and just clicked the "try GS" button and was hooked after that. But that was purely because they decided to get exposure on a broad platform.

But it also seems consistent with their whole PR branch and its capabilities or lack thereof. Consider the number of times they've made decisions that the playerbase forewarned them about, then they made the decision anyway, seemed surprised that people were upset, then ended up having to backtrack. (See wizard nerfs '16, bards nerfs '21, dark & dangerous, Dreavenings/invoker, HESS spins, etc.).

I bet they could interface the game with FB and make a fucking killing. But no, they'll never do that.

[Methais]

I bet they could interface the game with FB and make a fucking killing. But no, they'll never do that.

That idea has been thrown at them for years too, but got the usual "If there's any risk at all involved, even a .0000000000000000001% that it might not be effective, then we're not interested."

I wonder if any other game company in existence is managed this stupidly. Even ultra trash games still advertise.

[Rjex]

I've often wondered why they don't advertise. Even if it's a small percentage, there's gotto be a segment of gamers who'd be into retro MUDs. But the only advertising is the occasional email "hey come back to GS we haven't seen you in 20 years".

[BLZrizz]

I've often wondered why they don't advertise. Even if it's a small percentage, there's gotto be a segment of gamers who'd be into retro MUDs. But the only advertising is the occasional email "hey come back to GS we haven't seen you in 20 years".

It will be demonstrably small for sure. The conversion rate for an average online game is like 2%. I'd assume GSIV would be like .05%. However, that number is not zero.

I don't understand how they were like: that Tolaria Academy video got us 6000 new FTP accounts and generated all sorts of interest in the game! But no we will not spend anything on ads to do the same thing.

[Stanley Burrell]

I have one F2P I keep logged in that is just another set of eyes and ears -- and; on really, really rare occasions, transfers an item or two and/or some silver.

[SonoftheNorth]

I've often wondered why they don't advertise. Even if it's a small percentage, there's gotto be a segment of gamers who'd be into retro MUDs. But the only advertising is the occasional email "hey come back to GS we haven't seen you in 20 years".



It'll overload the volunteer workforce, they'd rather just milk whales.

[Gelston]

I have one F2P I keep logged in that is just another set of eyes and ears -- and; on really, really rare occasions, transfers an item or two and/or some silver.

You're a criminal.

[Bryce]

You're a criminal.

You've been hit by-
You've been struck by-
A smooth criminal


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[Taernath]

there's gotto be a segment of gamers who'd be into retro MUDs.

There are, but Simu poisoned that well a long time ago. GS gets brought up on MUD forums from time to time but the consensus is 'lol paid MUD with mtx'.

[Methais]

It will be demonstrably small for sure. The conversion rate for an average online game is like 2%. I'd assume GSIV would be like .05%. However, that number is not zero.

I don't understand how they were like: that Tolaria Academy video got us 6000 new FTP accounts and generated all sorts of interest in the game! But no we will not spend anything on ads to do the same thing.

I think the most advertising that's ever been done for GS was when a bunch of players pooled money together to pay for celebrity tweets.

Don't remember if it accomplished anything, but that's still sad when the playerbase does more advertising for a game than the company itself.

[Gelston]

I think the most advertising that's ever been done for GS was when a bunch of players pooled money together to pay for celebrity tweets.

Don't remember if it accomplished anything, but that's still sad when the playerbase does more advertising for a game than the company itself.

I remember Geordi LaForge was all like NO!

I started to buy adspace on FB for it once, but it was already registered. Like they started to do it, but then just didn't.

[Xcalibur1]

Let's be honest. Wyrom & simu staff are the bottleneck.

Anyone working in TI knows that ALL departments are what their Director is. And VPs will follow blindly what their Directors will tell em in their onepager PDF.

The fact they did nothing to grow the game and excuse themselves 100% of the time with the fact they have no grip on their volonteers is only matched with that stupid excuse of some fart sniffers " but it's a 30 years old game, it's a miracle it's still running ".

The only possible explanation why the game doesn't grow is corruption. They (High-end staff) got their hands SO MUCH into the candy jars with their taxless bonus and ad hoc "sales" here and there that they don't wanna attention.

[Ardwen]

I could have sworn you stopped playing Gemstone, don't you have a life or whatever? You are coming off as awful damned pathetic man.

[Donquix]

It will be demonstrably small for sure. The conversion rate for an average online game is like 2%. I'd assume GSIV would be like .05%. However, that number is not zero.

I don't understand how they were like: that Tolaria Academy video got us 6000 new FTP accounts and generated all sorts of interest in the game! But no we will not spend anything on ads to do the same thing.

they definitely don't advertise nearly enough. but of those 6000 how people how many logged in were like "wtf is going on? how does this work?" and quit on the spot. Their retention is even lower than it should be because the new player experience is absolute trash. Making a real fleshed out starter area is a perfectly fine idea, taking 4 years to do it is the problem.

[Methais]

they definitely don't advertise nearly enough. but of those 6000 how people how many logged in were like "wtf is going on? how does this work?" and quit on the spot. Their retention is even lower than it should be because the new player experience is absolute trash. Making a real fleshed out starter area is a perfectly fine idea, taking 4 years to do it is the problem.

That shit took 4 years? :rofl:

I don't know why this surprises me.

[Methais]

Let's be honest. Wyrom & simu staff are the bottleneck.

Anyone working in TI knows that ALL departments are what their Director is. And VPs will follow blindly what their Directors will tell em in their onepager PDF.

The fact they did nothing to grow the game and excuse themselves 100% of the time with the fact they have no grip on their volonteers is only matched with that stupid excuse of some fart sniffers " but it's a 30 years old game, it's a miracle it's still running ".

The only possible explanation why the game doesn't grow is corruption. They (High-end staff) got their hands SO MUCH into the candy jars with their taxless bonus and ad hoc "sales" here and there that they don't wanna attention.


Jesu Christo bro, take a breath or take a kayak, I don't know. There isn't many games like this one nowadays that has a big very religious loyalty to it and there's some common points between the players.

It's like in everything, you always give yourself enough reasons to continue an addiction.

I can judge a lot parkbandit but at the very least, he drew a line in the sand by stopping his playing but still posting. Baby steps approach and it works.

So about the "lecture" part man, lol, do what you want bro, don't take it that personnal.

For me: well, it's fun to troll a bit, I thought PC was just the continuation of LNET?

Posting about GS is your new addiction.

Reported to Andraste.

[Dud]

I doubt Wyrom is going to get much of an ad budget to try and revive a 40 yearold MUD. It is a question of ROI, and you don't have to be a genius to see the conversion funnel for Gemstone IV is awful. I doubt they can accurately calculate the current LTV of a customer, let alone how to hook a whale. I'd be surprised if they know how small the player base can get before the whales lose interest.

As a manager of product managers, I'd spend 30 seconds a month getting an update on the current and projected revenue, user base, and expenses. I'd then ignore Wyrom (Mario) and the game entirely because my time could be better spent on areas of growth. I'd decline any request for an ad budget and just run the game until its ROI drops below other opportunities. This is an end of life product that is still turning a good profit. That doesn't mean it has growth potential - you keep it around until you have a better opportunity to spend your resources.

I get that you love this game, but Stillfront sees this game as an investment. This isn't some grand conspiracy, this is a backwater game at a backwater company - you guys are the only ones that care.

[BLZrizz]

That doesn't mean it has growth potential - you keep it around until you have a better opportunity to spend your resources.

I agree with you on the ROI principle. But as the Tolaria Academy video suggested, the response to a simple social media marketing effort that cost nothing was pretty good. Our issue here is that they won't even try.

[Tgo01]

That shit took 4 years? :rofl:

Considering if anything it should have been doing 15-20 years ago I would say it took them 15-20 years.

Really at this point in time a starting area is just a tad late to the party.

[Methais]

If Simu even just implemented their own version of ;go2 and ;narost it would probably do wonders for retaining any new people that might show up. Nobody's gonna join a new game and stick around after everyone's like OK NOW YOU NEED TO DOWNLOAD AND INSTALL LICH AND THEN RUN ALL OF THESE XYZABC123 SCRIPTS SO THAT THE GAME WILL BE PLAYABLE!!!!!!!!!!!

Simu literally just expects the playerbase to do all the heavy lifting for them, and in return for the efforts, they nerf everything and shit down everyone's necks with overpriced trash and killing the actual in game economy.

[Gelston]

If Simu even just implemented their own version of ;go2 and ;narost it would probably do wonders for retaining any new people that might show up. Nobody's gonna join a new game and stick around after everyone's like OK NOW YOU NEED TO DOWNLOAD AND INSTALL LICH AND THEN RUN ALL OF THESE XYZABC123 SCRIPTS SO THAT THE GAME WILL BE PLAYABLE!!!!!!!!!!!

Simu literally just expects the playerbase to do all the heavy lifting for them, and in return for the efforts, they nerf everything and shit down everyone's necks with overpriced trash and killing the actual in game economy.

lol, that was the most annoying shit about being a GM. I forgot how to walk places without go2, so my NPC characters were all.. Fuck, gotta find the game room # and port there.

[Methais]

lol, that was the most annoying shit about being a GM. I forgot how to walk places without go2, so my NPC characters were all.. Fuck, gotta find the game room # and port there.

Time to bust out the Tsoran maps, 90s style:

https://i.imgur.com/4Syb41E.png

[Gelston]

Time to bust out the Tsoran maps, 90s style:

https://i.imgur.com/4Syb41E.png

Yeah basically. If you've ever noticed a GM joining your group and asking you to take them to wherever, that is why. ;go2 is just way faster unless they know the exact room #.

[Donquix]

That shit took 4 years? :rofl:

I don't know why this surprises me.

it was first mentioned at a simucon pre-covid so, best case is 3 years but i want to say it probably goes back to 2018 or so, for at least the first time it was mentioned to players.

[drumpel]

they definitely don't advertise nearly enough. but of those 6000 how people how many logged in were like "wtf is going on? how does this work?" and quit on the spot. Their retention is even lower than it should be because the new player experience is absolute trash. Making a real fleshed out starter area is a perfectly fine idea, taking 4 years to do it is the problem.

The game has a starter area? Get the fuck out of here, seriously?