higher silver prices

[beldannon5]

When is low too low? Discuss

[SHAFT]

When is low too low? Discuss

Maybe they’ll raise prices throughout the game to adjust? A big silvers-only auction would drain some as well. Or run dragonbones for a bit.

[audioserf]

Prices are only ever going to trend down. An insane amount of silver gets put into the game on an ongoing basis, even post-loot cap. DR adds a fucking nutso amount just from people pawning 35k items thousands of times a day for two weeks. Having enhancive charging for silvers once a year, maybe one or two WPS for silver a year doesn't put a dent in it. People are able to farm so efficiently now thanks to how advanced scripting has gotten and how (generally, obviously people have been getting popped recently) lax/absent AFK scripting enforcement has gotten. Silvers will have a small spike before events but lol if you think you're ever going to sell for $5+ again.

[beldannon5]

I am sure you are right. It doesn't help when you have some people do 25k-30k resale at these events. or more. Also wyrom made it way to easy. It was going to trend down of course, however duskruing/rumorwoods/rol made it go a lot faster

[Tgo01]

The GMs better do something fast about the silver economy because I can assure you there are a lot of people who only play because there is a functioning in game economy.

I don't just mean people who sell silvers, I also mean some people don't want to spend more money on this game in addition to their monthly fees so they deal exclusively in silvers. Once the silver economy completely crashes everyone is going to move to only accepting real money for items/services or they'll only accept alternative currencies which have a value such as bloodscrip.

But as per usual the GMs won't realize there is a problem until it's much too late. They have gotten lazy looking at the number of CHARACTERS rising over the past few years and thinking those are all new PLAYERS, when in reality you manage to drive just one person away these days and that most likely means you're driving away 3, 5, 7, or even more accounts.

The crazy thing is it wouldn't even be that difficult to drain massive amounts of silvers from the game. Just do a freaking silver only auction with some items you would normally only find at DR auctions. I bet it would drain many, many billions of silvers. But again they won't see the problem until it's too late so why look to the future when they can make some cash now?

[Archigeek]

There's less demand for silvers because any money making event today relies on some other currency, and there's more supply, because of the hyper level of farming efficiency we have today. More supply, less demand equals lower price.

The final nail in the coffin will be when they begin to sell silvers in the simucoin store. At that point, the once thriving economy will be cooked.

[Tgo01]

because of the hyper level of farming efficiency we have today.

I don't know if that's really the case anymore considering there is literally a hard cap on how much silvers people can farm now.

Doesn't matter if someone manages to find the most efficient way possible to earn silvers and they are somehow pulling in 30 million silvers a day, that will only last for a whole day now.

I think the main issue is the GMs haven't created any meaningful silver sinks in forever. They apparently thought the whole mail system was going to be a huge silver drain with stamps costing a whole 20k for a book.

[Nothing]

I think the main issue is the GMs haven't created any meaningful silver sinks in forever. They apparently thought the whole mail system was going to be a huge silver drain with stamps costing a whole 20k for a book.

Even if they hadn't tanked the attractiveness of the mail system with that COD tax, 20k is pocket change for anyone with a character over level 30... if they thought that would be a silver sink it's pretty clear no one making the decisions actually plays the game anymore.

[Tgo01]

Even if they hadn't tanked the attractiveness of the mail system with that COD tax, 20k is pocket change for anyone with a character over level 30... if they thought that would be a silver sink it's pretty clear no one making the decisions actually plays the game anymore.

The GMs only think about now. "How would this benefit the game now?"

They can't seem to think long term if their life depended on it.

[BLZrizz]

Also it doesn’t help that they’ve been stingy with the WPS wagon this past year. It should be open for silver at least once per window, full stop.

From my past observations, silver prices are a proxy for player activity and population levels generally. Not necessarily encouraging for long term prices. Hence why the smart money is getting out of DBs and very higher end assets now.

[Archigeek]

I don't know if that's really the case anymore considering there is literally a hard cap on how much silvers people can farm now.

Doesn't matter if someone manages to find the most efficient way possible to earn silvers and they are somehow pulling in 30 million silvers a day, that will only last for a whole day now.

I think the main issue is the GMs haven't created any meaningful silver sinks in forever. They apparently thought the whole mail system was going to be a huge silver drain with stamps costing a whole 20k for a book.

The hard cap is still a very high number, so I don't think your arguement there holds much water. Additionally, it's not just the players who are out there earning 30m a month or whatever the cap is. EVERYONE is more efficient. There's flat out just more silver being earned all around = huge surplus of silvers. Take away the use of silvers as the currency for events and boom, it's a recipe for a tanking currency.

I agree that they completely munged up the mail system. They need to take a closer look at how players are communicating today before they create a new communication system. If the new system doesn't make things easier for players than what they're doing already, you're wasting your time.

[audioserf]

I noped out of ever using the in-game mail shit when I learned you have to buy a package and postage and all this shit. Lol just let me do it in one command, for however much silver I don't care. I don't need a roleplay experience selling some asshole a +8 edge weapon earring I found at DR.

[BLZrizz]

I noped out of ever using the in-game mail shit when I learned you have to buy a package and postage and all this shit. Lol just let me do it in one command, for however much silver I don't care. I don't need a roleplay experience selling some asshole a +8 edge weapon earring I found at DR.

This just in: instead of the loot cap, you will now receive an Elanthia W-2 and you can simply file annual loot returns at your local city’s tax office!! This way they can implement a progressive loot system that’s fair for all. The finest administrative role play available today!

[Winter]

The final nail in the coffin will be when they begin to sell silvers in the simucoin store. At that point, the once thriving economy will be cooked.

Average DR prize per win on average is 20k silvers so that's already happening, it makes the treasure cap superfluous. Judging from what were told about treasure generation during the treasure cap change I'd wager that the 2 DRs create more silver than the entire game population does in a full year.

[azim17]

I'm always fascinated by the economy discussions. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I simply don't care at all what the value of silver is in $ and I don't quite get why anyone does. If you just play to enjoy and buy what you want in $, whats the difference really? Is this legit a source of income for some people and would it really cause people to leave if silver dropped to a certain level?

[Methais]

When is low too low? Discuss

I've been selling silvers for years and I still don't have the first clue what the fuck people spend them on anymore.

Other than maybe WPS stuff when it starts getting expensive, wtf is there to spend silvers on?

[Ufian]

I think they are just using them as a medium of exchange for people who don't buy/sell with USD tbh.

[SHAFT]

I've been selling silvers for years and I still don't have the first clue what the fuck people spend them on anymore.

Other than maybe WPS stuff when it starts getting expensive, wtf is there to spend silvers on?

Playershops is a big one.

[Tgo01]

would it really cause people to leave if silver dropped to a certain level?

Absolutely. Merchanting is something a lot of people enjoy in this game. The only reason it works is because silvers have a real world value. If silvers are worthless then the entire in game economy is pointless and merchanting no longer exists.

[Tgo01]

I think they are just using them as a medium of exchange for people who don't buy/sell with USD tbh.

That's what I think too. I think a lot of people buy silvers because that's how most non-real life money transactions are handled. Just buy a hefty sum of silvers and you can buy all sorts of items and services that people are selling for silvers.

That worked great when silver auctions and silvers being used at events were still a thing because eventually those bought and sold silvers were gobbled up by the system and the game still had a functioning economy. Now with no real silver drains anymore people are just trading around silvers and the value of silvers is dropping.

[Methais]

I don't know if that's really the case anymore considering there is literally a hard cap on how much silvers people can farm now.

Doesn't matter if someone manages to find the most efficient way possible to earn silvers and they are somehow pulling in 30 million silvers a day, that will only last for a whole day now.

I think the main issue is the GMs haven't created any meaningful silver sinks in forever. They apparently thought the whole mail system was going to be a huge silver drain with stamps costing a whole 20k for a book.

Their goal is probably to make silvers pointless so that they can go full P2W on everything, because in their minds that would totally work. Probably.

Pretty sure Estild gets constipated for at least 3 days in real life anytime a silvers for cash transaction happens.

There are plenty of things they could do as silver sinks, they just won't because they're stupid and are never interested in actual solutions to problems.

Even small shit like removing the cooldown from chronomages would have an impact imo. I can't count how many times I blew off using one because I just missed it and didn't feel like waiting 19 minutes or whatever the timer is for the next one, and usually ended up logging out shortly after.

I used to have all sorts of ideas for silver drains. But I'm too lazy to try remembering them, mainly because it would be pointless.

[Tgo01]

Their goal is probably to make silvers pointless so that they can go full P2W on everything, because in their minds that would totally work. Probably.

Pretty sure Estild gets constipated for at least 3 days in real life anytime a silvers for cash transaction happens.

There are plenty of things they could do as silver sinks, they just won't because they're stupid and are never interested in actual solutions to problems.

Even small shit like removing the cooldown from chronomages would have an impact imo. I can't count how many times I blew off using one because I just missed it and didn't feel like waiting 19 minutes or whatever the timer is for the next one, and usually ended up logging out shortly after.

I used to have all sorts of ideas for silver drains. But I'm too lazy to try remembering them, mainly because it would be pointless.

They could even do something like create an NPC that sells temporary power ups, like +20 AS for 1 hour but it costs like 100k silvers or something. I bet there are a lot of people who would gobble that shit up. Sure 100k an hour at a time isn't much, but it's something and it adds up. But they're too busy wondering how much money they can make at the next DR, because all they know how to do is live in the now.

[Methais]

Also it doesn’t help that they’ve been stingy with the WPS wagon this past year. It should be open for silver at least once per window, full stop.

From my past observations, silver prices are a proxy for player activity and population levels generally. Not necessarily encouraging for long term prices. Hence why the smart money is getting out of DBs and very higher end assets now.

They should just leave that shit open 24/7 and let the window and price scaling do what it's supposed to do. If some whale wants to bankrupt their billions+ bank account for some insane amount of weighting/padding, let them. Who would actually give a shit besides nobody?


The hard cap is still a very high number, so I don't think your arguement there holds much water. Additionally, it's not just the players who are out there earning 30m a month or whatever the cap is. EVERYONE is more efficient. There's flat out just more silver being earned all around = huge surplus of silvers. Take away the use of silvers as the currency for events and boom, it's a recipe for a tanking currency.

I agree that they completely munged up the mail system. They need to take a closer look at how players are communicating today before they create a new communication system. If the new system doesn't make things easier for players than what they're doing already, you're wasting your time.

The loot cap still had a pretty big impact. I used to easily pull in at least 100m a month just farming shit at work solo and not even logging in during the evening.

Throw in my alts running around with me causing extra spawns/somewhat frequent swarms and faster kills, and those numbers get big very quickly.

The hard cap is still a high number, sure, but compared to what was possible pre-loot cap, even solo, 30-35m really isn't shit.

But like someone else said, DR alone brings more silvers into the game in a year than probably every "real" silver farmer combined does just from all the pawnshop trash, yet Simu doesn't seem to have a problem with that, because all the rules and "game balance concerns" get thrown right out the window as soon as P2W is involved. The best part is how Simu tries to say that isn't the case with a straight face, and they actually expect people to believe them.


I noped out of ever using the in-game mail shit when I learned you have to buy a package and postage and all this shit. Lol just let me do it in one command, for however much silver I don't care. I don't need a roleplay experience selling some asshole a +8 edge weapon earring I found at DR.

When Simu is about to implement something new, they should pretend for a minute that they actually do marketing, and then ask themselves how they think people would likely react if they advertised that feature as part of their marketing.

Exhibit A:

Gemstone IV: This game is so real that we make you stand in line at the post office buying fucking stamps!

https://i.imgflip.com/4r8v10.jpg




They could even do something like create an NPC that sells temporary power ups, like +20 AS for 1 hour but it costs like 100k silvers or something. I bet there are a lot of people who would gobble that shit up. Sure 100k an hour at a time isn't much, but it's something and it adds up. But they're too busy wondering how much money they can make at the next DR, because all they know how to do is live in the now.

Their response would be some dumb shit like, "That sounds great at first, but that +20 AS will totally allow them to make an extra 300k per hour over what they'd make with their regular AS, so it would actually make the problem worse! Btw guys, don't forget DR is coming up, make sure to buy this $15,000 item that gives you +20 AS permanently!!!!!"

[Tgo01]

Their response would be some dumb shit like, "That sounds great at first, but that +20 AS will totally allow them to make an extra 300k per hour over what they'd make with their regular AS, so it would actually make the problem worse! Btw guys, don't forget DR is coming up, make sure to buy this $15,000 item that gives you +20 AS permanently!!!!!"

Yeah once they rolled out the invoker it quickly became apparent that they are largely full of shit in many of their tirades.

GMs: "But...but game balance! We can't just hand out +5 AS that easily!"
Also GMs: "LOL! Come and get 4 hours of spells which results in +15 AS and +100 DS! It's all free and instant!"

[Methais]

Yeah once they rolled out the invoker it quickly became apparent that they are largely full of shit in many of their tirades.

GMs: "But...but game balance! We can't just hand out +5 AS that easily!"
Also GMs: "LOL! Come and get 4 hours of spells which results in +15 AS and +100 DS! It's all free and instant!"

"Pay us money for these books that give you more spell ranks at our P2W event, which is the only place you can get them! Btw bards are OP and need to be nerfed because game balance."

[BLZrizz]

I'm always fascinated by the economy discussions. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I simply don't care at all what the value of silver is in $ and I don't quite get why anyone does. If you just play to enjoy and buy what you want in $, whats the difference really? Is this legit a source of income for some people and would it really cause people to leave if silver dropped to a certain level?

This is a more complex question than meets the eye, but it's fun to think about. First, look at silver as a "reward" for in game efforts and in-game activity. Then, look at the $ to silver conversion rate as the market value of those in-game efforts. The theory is that, as this number gets closer and closer to zero, that removes a significant incentive for people to play and could lead to a catastrophic population collapse.

Now, people play GSIV for many reasons, and have attachments to their characters that they have custom-designed, their items, pets, and so on, so this general theory may not necessarily play out in a linear fashion. Some people care because they directly derive income from silver sales. Others (like myself) see it as an indicator of the overall health of the game, and thus may be motivated to either cease acquiring items at high cost (either from other players or big-money events like DR) and/or begin to trim their inventory exposure while there are still a handful of buyers left.

Even if you don't ever plan to sell silver, it's still an issue; if a main attraction of gemstone is the ability to obtain the game's exclusive items and content by in-game activity, then silvers at $0 essentially severs that link. One may argue that it's already impossible at this point to obtain high-end items purely via in-game efforts and that you have to play the cash game to touch those items.

Throughout history, one way to assess whether a currency has failed is whether the issuing authority accepts it as payment (refer to later Roman governments who issued denarii but would only accept gold in payment for taxes owed); the lack of silver sinks and the inability to purchase high end items with silver answers that question.

[Rjex]

Both the chronomage thing and the temp power ups are actually pretty good ideas for silver drains. A way to blow off disposable income without any long term harm to the balance of the game. A healthy silver economy definitely adds to the fun factor of the game but it doesn't add to the simu bottomline though, unlike the p2w currencies. So the only thing I see them doing is pushing everyone more and more to the simu shop stuff. And BTW, once silvers are under a buck and everyone holds bloodscrip as a more stable exchange medium, that's when you retire duskruin and introduce a shiny new event with a new currency. Rinse and repeat for max profit.

[BLZrizz]

Both the chronomage thing and the temp power ups are actually pretty good ideas for silver drains. A way to blow off disposable income without any long term harm to the balance of the game. A healthy silver economy definitely adds to the fun factor of the game but it doesn't add to the simu bottomline though, unlike the p2w currencies. So the only thing I see them doing is pushing everyone more and more to the simu shop stuff. And BTW, once silvers are under a buck and everyone holds bloodscrip as a more stable exchange medium, that's when you retire duskruin and introduce a shiny new event with a new currency. Rinse and repeat for max profit.

The rinse and repeat model works with a large population but I don't think that principle scales down so well long term. This is from someone who has participated in every DR since its inception. You've hit on one key though: silver and fun factor being interrelated. Severing in-game efforts from the most exclusive in-game rewards kills fun long term and enhances the "treadmill' effect.

Other MMOs have tied in-game currency to subscription fees (Eve online being one example), and this is one way to set a "floor" for the currency to maintain its incentive effect, e.g. 3m as the exchange for 1 month of a basic sub. I think simu should also focus on growing daily unique users first, then revenue generation second. But it seems more focused on the latter now without concern to growing the player (i.e. revenue) base.

[Archigeek]

Yeah once they rolled out the invoker it quickly became apparent that they are largely full of shit in many of their tirades.

GMs: "But...but game balance! We can't just hand out +5 AS that easily!"
Also GMs: "LOL! Come and get 4 hours of spells which results in +15 AS and +100 DS! It's all free and instant!"

They refused undead bane on my throwing axe 3x on the grounds that it would be OP, before you could buy it off the shelf for 500k BS. At that price nothing is OP!

[Tgo01]

They refused undead bane on my throwing axe 3x on the grounds that it would be OP, before you could buy it off the shelf for 500k BS. At that price nothing is OP!

That's hilarious.

[danielsh]

From my past observations, silver prices are a proxy for player activity and population levels generally. Not necessarily encouraging for long term prices. Hence why the smart money is getting out of DBs and very higher end assets now.

How has the cash value of DB's and higher end assets held up over the years?

Obviously the value of silvers has gone down, but it seems like higher end items just get priced for more silvers to compensate.

[SHAFT]

How has the cash value of DB's and higher end assets held up over the years?

Obviously the value of silvers has gone down, but it seems like higher end items just get priced for more silvers to compensate.

The price of DB's appears to have gone up massively. Even at $9 per and 60m per 1x for a DB, a 10x would be ~$5500.

With the ability to buy DB's certs with bloodscripts, people are asking for $12k-20k+ for 10x DB's

[Nephelem]

Clearly what we need is Gemstone item NFTs sold for Bloodscrip that can be mutated and transfered, but only with special Simucoin items. Blockstone is the future.

[Tgo01]

Obviously the value of silvers has gone down, but it seems like higher end items just get priced for more silvers to compensate.

You would think, but people don't seem to factor this in when the price of silvers drop, at least not always and not fully.

Look at a fixstats potion for example. Here we have an item that has a hard price cap because you can get one from the SimuCoin store for about 160 dollars, figure about a 10% discount because otherwise people would just buy from the SimuCoin store instead of buying your fixstats, so figure they should sell for about the equivalent of 140 dollars in silvers. Yet fixstats are going for 16 million silvers, sometimes even cheaper.

The reason they go for only 16 million, which is really only about 50 bucks worth, is probably because when they first showed up in the SimuCoin store silvers were going for about 8 dollars per million and even as the value of silvers dropped the cost of fixstat potions in silvers remained the same.

Or it could be because the demand for fixstats have dried up since generally you would only need to buy one per character and maybe everyone has already bought one for their characters over the years, but this doesn't explain why fixskills still go for 1/4th the value of fixstats (because in bounty points fixskills are 1/4th the cost of fixstats) because fixskills can be useful for the same character many times.

It just seems the market doesn't factor in the value of silvers decreasing. Look at services such as enchanting and ensorcelling, you would think with the value of silvers dropping by almost half in the past couple of years that wizards and sorcerers would have doubled their prices in the same time frame, but instead these services are about the same cost now as they were back then.

It really does seem like the GMs just don't give a shit about the in game economy anymore, they would probably love nothing more than for the alternative currencies (the ones you need to get via SimuCoins) to take over. Again this is very shortsighted on their part but they don't seem to care.

[BLZrizz]

How has the cash value of DB's and higher end assets held up over the years?

Obviously the value of silvers has gone down, but it seems like higher end items just get priced for more silvers to compensate.

DBs are an interesting case. In 2010 10x pins would go for around $2000. Normal inflation would price it at $2557 today but they sell for $13-15k now. For top 1% gear, prices have vastly outpaced inflation. None of these items would be available for silver though, though there was a +49 set of DB boots that sold ~2016 for around 425m silver, but see below for this timing. (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?103179-49-DB-boots-T1-claid-high-end-plate-and-cloak-permablessed-greatsword-and-more!)

I largely attribute a lot of it to the whales that began to enter the game in earnest beginning in early 2017, which coincides with the crypto boom, incidentally. I say this because the 2016 great (silver) auction was the last "whale free" event, where item prices were tethered somewhat to reality and prevailing market values. Since then, a subset of top 1% items (of which high enchant DBs are a part) have essentially become "whale food"; these items are being competed for by a very small set of individuals who are largely price-inelastic, i.e. they don't care how much it costs or whether they will recoup the value at a later point. Items that don't fall within those subsets have remained largely constant (i.e. sets of FGB, fel hafted waraxes, etc).

[Archigeek]

Clearly what we need is Gemstone item NFTs sold for Bloodscrip that can be mutated and transfered, but only with special Simucoin items. Blockstone is the future.

I've had that thought too. Offer conversion of items from "simutronics owns everything!" to "congratulations! You own a broadsword!" For a price. No one should be shocked if it has been discussed.

[beldannon5]

You would think, but people don't seem to factor this in when the price of silvers drop, at least not always and not fully.

Look at a fixstats potion for example. Here we have an item that has a hard price cap because you can get one from the SimuCoin store for about 160 dollars, figure about a 10% discount because otherwise people would just buy from the SimuCoin store instead of buying your fixstats, so figure they should sell for about the equivalent of 140 dollars in silvers. Yet fixstats are going for 16 million silvers, sometimes even cheaper.

The reason they go for only 16 million, which is really only about 50 bucks worth, is probably because when they first showed up in the SimuCoin store silvers were going for about 8 dollars per million and even as the value of silvers dropped the cost of fixstat potions in silvers remained the same.

Or it could be because the demand for fixstats have dried up since generally you would only need to buy one per character and maybe everyone has already bought one for their characters over the years, but this doesn't explain why fixskills still go for 1/4th the value of fixstats (because in bounty points fixskills are 1/4th the cost of fixstats) because fixskills can be useful for the same character many times.

It just seems the market doesn't factor in the value of silvers decreasing. Look at services such as enchanting and ensorcelling, you would think with the value of silvers dropping by almost half in the past couple of years that wizards and sorcerers would have doubled their prices in the same time frame, but instead these services are about the same cost now as they were back then.

It really does seem like the GMs just don't give a shit about the in game economy anymore, they would probably love nothing more than for the alternative currencies (the ones you need to get via SimuCoins) to take over. Again this is very shortsighted on their part but they don't seem to care.

I think for fixstats and fixskills the lower prices is wyrom keeps doing half off sales so people buy them cheap and then don't need as much to get it back.

[gs4Pawn]

The price of DB's appears to have gone up massively. Even at $9 per and 60m per 1x for a DB, a 10x would be ~$5500.

With the ability to buy DB's certs with bloodscripts, people are asking for $12k-20k+ for 10x DB's

The Last few High end DB items I have sold have been in the 120m per X. it gets hazy with the sliding silvers around, thats why I sold them for straight cash. The Last 10x I sold 2 years ago Sold for 11k.

[Maerit]

They even missed the opportunity in the new hunting ground to charge silvers for the 15 min buffs offers by the alchemist and instead opted for a new limited currency earned by farming gigas creature's. Charge 100k silver OR gigas guts...

[Methais]

Both the chronomage thing and the temp power ups are actually pretty good ideas for silver drains. A way to blow off disposable income without any long term harm to the balance of the game. A healthy silver economy definitely adds to the fun factor of the game but it doesn't add to the simu bottomline though, unlike the p2w currencies. So the only thing I see them doing is pushing everyone more and more to the simu shop stuff. And BTW, once silvers are under a buck and everyone holds bloodscrip as a more stable exchange medium, that's when you retire duskruin and introduce a shiny new event with a new currency. Rinse and repeat for max profit.

Zyngatronics.

[Methais]

They refused undead bane on my throwing axe 3x on the grounds that it would be OP, before you could buy it off the shelf for 500k BS. At that price nothing is OP!

That's right up there with Estild creating 1206 just to put it in a SK item to sell for cash and then try to justify it by saying, "WELL IF SAVANTS DID EXIST THEY COULD USE THIS SPELL, THEREFORE IT MAKES SENSE TO GIVE IT TO MONKS!!!!"

[Methais]

DBs are an interesting case. In 2010 10x pins would go for around $2000. Normal inflation would price it at $2557 today but they sell for $13-15k now. For top 1% gear, prices have vastly outpaced inflation. None of these items would be available for silver though, though there was a +49 set of DB boots that sold ~2016 for around 425m silver, but see below for this timing. (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?103179-49-DB-boots-T1-claid-high-end-plate-and-cloak-permablessed-greatsword-and-more!)

I largely attribute a lot of it to the whales that began to enter the game in earnest beginning in early 2017, which coincides with the crypto boom, incidentally. I say this because the 2016 great (silver) auction was the last "whale free" event, where item prices were tethered somewhat to reality and prevailing market values. Since then, a subset of top 1% items (of which high enchant DBs are a part) have essentially become "whale food"; these items are being competed for by a very small set of individuals who are largely price-inelastic, i.e. they don't care how much it costs or whether they will recoup the value at a later point. Items that don't fall within those subsets have remained largely constant (i.e. sets of FGB, fel hafted waraxes, etc).

My favorite part is how a good chunk of whales still die 4873209423x a day despite their insane gear because they just suck at the game in general, despite GS being the easiest game ever made.

[Methais]

I think for fixstats and fixskills the lower prices is wyrom keeps doing half off sales so people buy them cheap and then don't need as much to get it back.

That, and every time a nerf happens, that profession gets a free fixskill. Which is good, because fuck dev and them nerfing shit all the time, but free fixskills due to nerfs/changes seems to happen a lot.

[BLZrizz]

My favorite part is how a good chunk of whales still die 4873209423x a day despite their insane gear because they just suck at the game in general, despite GS being the easiest game ever made.

True. They don’t play often but their death to time played ratio is pretty high.

[danielsh]

DBs are an interesting case. In 2010 10x pins would go for around $2000. Normal inflation would price it at $2557 today but they sell for $13-15k now. For top 1% gear, prices have vastly outpaced inflation.

The skyrocketing value of DBs makes zero sense to me. Straight up DS matters a whole lot less than it did back in 2010 with SMRv2.


My favorite part is how a good chunk of whales still die 4873209423x a day despite their insane gear because they just suck at the game in general, despite GS being the easiest game ever made.

I take that back. If these are the same folks paying through the nose for +50 DS, then this scans.

[Rjex]

The skyrocketing value of DBs makes zero sense to me.

It's cause a handful of people own almost all of them, especially that one guy who won't be named but knows who he is. It's just a rarity driven thing at this point, completely decoupled from any mechanical benefit value.

[SHAFT]

The skyrocketing value of DBs makes zero sense to me. Straight up DS matters a whole lot less than it did back in 2010 with SMRv2.



I take that back. If these are the same folks paying through the nose for +50 DS, then this scans.

DB certificates drove the price up.

[Ardwen]

Being able to add other features to DB items, especially cloaks drove the values thru the roof as well. The price static, particularly on cloaks, because they tied up one of the 2 p[rime container slots that could be used on a majorly upgraded container.

[gs4Pawn]

It's cause a handful of people own almost all of them, especially that one guy who won't be named but knows who he is. It's just a rarity driven thing at this point, completely decoupled from any mechanical benefit value.

I dunno
Having an extra 50 DS seems to save me more then the CM and SMR2 attacks kill me.

Getting disarmed, knocked down and stance offensive I don't think much can hit me.

Since I'm in mutant mode not having 425 430 507 509 513 508 503 and still being able to hunt is nice.

as far as items go, I'd rather have 50 DS over most of the SK/Self mana items. Having both is just a bonus!

[BLZrizz]

I dunno
Having an extra 50 DS seems to save me more then the CM and SMR2 attacks kill me.

Getting disarmed, knocked down and stance offensive I don't think much can hit me.

Since I'm in mutant mode not having 425 430 507 509 513 508 503 and still being able to hunt is nice.

as far as items go, I'd rather have 50 DS over most of the SK/Self mana items. Having both is just a bonus!

I think the point was that in 2010 being AS/DS killed was basically the only way to die, and today its like 60% with the increase in usage of SMRv2 attacks and environmental effects, so it's not as mechanically impactful as it was a decade ago. +50 non-affectable DS is basically cheating though; no one is disputing that it's a big advantage.

Also varies widely across professions; DBs are stronger for use for the professions most likely to suffer from being struck while wearing soft armor.

[gs4Pawn]

That's Fair Blzrizz.

Tell Mystiss? Every time I borrow her DB stuff she gets annoyed because she gets hit harder as a warrior.

I did find when I maxed out dodge it wasn't as needed. SO i guess if your 28-35m exp its not as helpful, but still nice to have.

[Fleur-de-me]

Simutronics and the staff had the ability to fix the economy if they had wanted to. They have made a conscious decision to completely ignore it instead. Sadly so many of the problems in general with the economy in GS have much more to do with the lack of item removal and silvers sinks like repairing gear ect. The truth is even if they left the WPS wagon out every window; as should be the case, it will likely not get silver over $3 per.

For better or worse they have neglected to the problem to the point now where there are no longer enough unique subscribers anymore to fix it no matter how many silver grand auctions or silvers sinks they want to put in, whether that be selling spells in game or silvers themselves on the simustore itself.

The simple fact of the matter is that there just ins't enough us anymore.

[SHAFT]

I brought it up in discord today and it was met with a meh. We'll see what happens.

I'll probably more silver when they drop to $1 per.

[Fleur-de-me]

I brought it up in discord today and it was met with a meh. We'll see what happens.

Why I am not surprised.

[BLZrizz]

Silver won't ever recover to $4 or higher permanently. The devaluation relative to USD is due to a secular decline in the player base and not lack of silver sinks or purchase outlets. One indicator of this is that the loot cap did nothing to arrest or even slow the devaluation, even though somewhere around 60-80% of the silver generation went away when the farmers were chased off.

They may be able to dead cat bounce it with a silver auction or something but it will return to sub-3.

[BLZrizz]

Here is an imgur link to a quick and dirty silver to USD chart I made based on PC sale posts: https://imgur.com/a/oItPmek

Interestingly, something happened in/around mid-2013 that pushed silver values up. I was out of the game at this time so perhaps someone can figure out what that was. You can also see a tiny bump for the late 2016 great auction and likely slowed the decline.

[Tgo01]

Here is an imgur link to a quick and dirty silver to USD chart I made based on PC sale posts: https://imgur.com/a/oItPmek

Interestingly, something happened in/around mid-2013 that pushed silver values up. I was out of the game at this time so perhaps someone can figure out what that was. You can also see a tiny bump for the late 2016 great auction and likely slowed the decline.

Pretty sure 2013 was Return to Coresine Field, or however that's spelled.

I think I was getting like 15 dollars per million towards the end of that period.

[SHAFT]

Pretty sure 2013 was Return to Coresine Field, or however that's spelled.

I think I was getting like 15 dollars per million towards the end of that period.

It was the auction with the glove bows. People were stacking for that, I remember it well.

[zhagen]

So what happens when silver is $1/worthless? People just revert to straight cash sales or double/triple/quadruple the current pricing of items? So current high ticket item values could remain the same in dollar terms but just farming silvers is much less valuable?

[Rjex]

Pretty sure we'll see $1.5 and sub $1 silver prices in not that distant of a future, but yeah people will keep using them for transactions just as they do now. We'll just all be Zimbabwean billionaires and prices will be 3-4x what they are now.

[Tgo01]

I was just thinking about my earlier comment about how the GMs are doing nothing about the crashing value of silvers because they don't seem to care, which is still accurate. But rather I think the main reason is because they see the writing on the wall.

After years of either complete apathy to wanting to try to get new players, or just failing at attracting new players, they have finally decided to just say fuck it and get as much money as they possibly can from their remaining player base.

Like it or not, even if you're rocking 5 accounts that's only 900 dollars a year for Simu. If you quit the game because the economy sucks or whatever reason, Simu would hardly notice when some people are spending 1k at a time without even giving it much thought during DR, which happens twice a year. Not to mention the other dozen or so paid events that happen throughout the year.

Sure development is still happening in game because people need to justify the untold thousands they are spending on the game. Why bother spending 30k on items to make your character a virtual god in a stagnant world? Gotta keep going with the nerfs to the plebs while the whales are spending thousands of dollars on enhancives that give them +50 spell ranks so they become more powerful while their counterparts become weaker.

So yeah, I think it's unlikely the GMs are going to do anything about the silver economy. At this point they are just milking the cash cows and game development is really just incidental to keep said cash cows happy.

[Tgo01]

Also after reading the other thread from the guy who said he had upwards of 5 characters logged in at once just to pick boxes at the pool, it made me rethink a comment I made a couple of weeks ago where I estimated that at any given time between 20-50% of the characters logged on are all alts being played at the same time by the same people.

I actually think I underestimated. It seems today the norm is for people to be running at least 2 accounts, which if true that means the floor of the estimate is 50%, not the ceiling.

It seems like everyone these days when they talk about how they play they just casually say "Oh yeah I run 5 characters at the same time", or "I hunt with 3 characters at once." It's rare today to see someone say "I only play one character at a time." I'm not saying they don't exist, but they seem to be in the vast minority these days.

I really do wonder exactly how many unique PLAYERS are logged in at any given time, as opposed to how many unique CHARACTERS are logged in. At the time of writing this post I alone account for over 5% of the logged in characters. Granted 2 of them are just free accounts who just hang out at tables all day, but still.

I know of at least 2 people who combined run 18 characters, if they happen to be on right now (not sure if they are) then those 2 people would account for another almost 4% of the current logged on population. Meaning it's entirely possible that right now with 462 characters in game, 3 people account for almost 10% of those characters.

[chowell]

I only play one character.

More suggestions for silver drain:

- do away with loot from DR, make it BS only
- WPS every month with higher thresholds
- more customization for silvers, ie buy a Sady scroll of script feature for coins, nothing super high end
- pay more silver for expedited chronomage option
- town “bard” for coin
- silvers for bounty points more often
- silver pool if reach certain amount enables extra invoker
- high end silver auction here and there

Just quick ideas that came to mind.. every little bit would help keep the drain and currency stable, imho.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ardwen]

Only one character played as well, I've made dozens of suggestions over the years on how to improve the economy, pay events that produce limitless volumes of silver are the largest issue, events where you can't spend silvers likely shouldn't have silvers as rewards, but that is water well under the bridge at this point.

[Tgo01]

- do away with loot from DR, make it BS only

I'm kind of surprised people get items from arenas, but I think the reason is because the GMs basically make it mirror a regular hunt just with much better rewards. You not only get bloodscrip and a guaranteed item at the end of the arena, but you also get experience that can put you at saturated so you could potentially constantly be saturated from what is essentially a regular hunt.

It's basically two weeks of super hunts.

Which also makes me laugh when I think about how people were super upset (and are still upset to this day I might add) that I had a Patreon setup to help cover the costs of Dreavenings, even though almost all of the money I raised went directly to Simu in the form of monthly payments. These people actually cheered on the GMs when they went to war with Dreavenings and specifically said that they wanted to see my Patreon dwindle. Well they got their wish and now every penny I earn from my Patreon goes directly to Simu because it doesn't even cover the cost of my subs anymore and it's quickly reaching the point where any money I did earn from my Patreon is going back to Simu anyways.

So my point is...what did they accomplish? They were upset the money I raised was going back into the game they supposedly enjoy? Isn't that a good thing?

The funniest part is many of those people who cried/still cry to this day about my Patreon farm the shit out of DR and sell bloodscrip and probably earn thousands of dollars during the event, and they are crying about the pennies I earn from my Patreon by comparison. Those are the toxic people I mentioned in another thread. They don't seem to enjoy the game really , it seems their life's mission at this point is to ensure OTHER people don't enjoy the game either, and for some reason the GMs are taking their cues from these people. These people would love nothing more than for the silver economy to tank, just means bloodscrip would probably take over as the preferred currency and they can make even more money.

[azim17]

No in game loot for 12 months at all. Continue silver auctions and sinks as mentioned.

[SHAFT]

The problem with silver auctions is you flood the game with high end gear. The GM's have to create this stuff as well.

How about getting rid of bloodscript? Or even have a few DR runs where people use silvers instead of bloodscript.

Plenty of things they could do, but I doubt they will. As long as people keep buying simucoins and pay the fees for events like DR they're happy.

[Tgo01]

As long as people keep buying simucoins and pay the fees for events like DR they're happy.

The sad thing is many people predicted this would happen once they rolled out the SimuCoin store and the Simu defenders told them they were all crazy. These people now point to the number of characters in game as proof that things didn't get worse, even though like I said the number of characters in game isn't really a reflection of how many people play this game like it was 10-15+ years ago.

[Fleur-de-me]

All the silvers sinks in the world won't help. It's a lack of unique subscribers that's killing the economy. Until they are able to attract new subscribers to the lands all the auctions and wps wagons in elanthia won't help because you're selling to the same few hundred (maybe) people. I alone am 8-10 accounts. It's gets increasingly hard to justify the exorbitant cash prices of items when you're increasingly playing with afk toons than you are other players.

To me, the worst thing about GS has always been that the most awesome items never see the light of day for fear of being nerfed. This has to be the game with the best most expensive never used gear. Don't use that awesome spirit draining blade it'll be nerfed. I can't think of any other game i'm actively incentivized not to use the best gear. The Pay to win model GS has chosen only works with a large and robust subscriber base and even then people hate it, seem almost every Korean or Russian MMO ever made. I like a lot of men don't have trouble throwing thousands of dollars in to my hobbies, but it gets harder when your increasingly playing alone.

[BLZrizz]

The problem with silver auctions is you flood the game with high end gear. The GM's have to create this stuff as well.

There's attrition going on in terms of people passing away with items and others hoarding them. DBs for example, there's one guy who is hoarding them, so I think the game can afford to uncap them to some extent.

As for silver drains, dig up old merchants, update the pricing, and re-run them. Re-run the late-90s juggernauts and spitfires. Same exact gear. People will still buy.

[Tgo01]

DBs for example, there's one guy who is hoarding them, so I think the game can afford to uncap them to some extent.

Something tells me the GMs are afraid of pushback from whales if they try to introduce more items that are like theirs because that would devalue their own items.

Just imagine if tomorrow they sold a dozen rift boots, each would go for probably less than half of what the original guy paid for them. Something tells me that guy might be less open to spending that much money on their next item. It's like the game is being held hostage at this point.

[BLZrizz]

Something tells me the GMs are afraid of pushback from whales if they try to introduce more items that are like theirs because that would devalue their own items.

Just imagine if tomorrow they sold a dozen rift boots, each would go for probably less than half of what the original guy paid for them. Something tells me that guy might be less open to spending that much money on their next item. It's like the game is being held hostage at this point.

I agree to some extent. Rift boots are a different case since it was basically crafted for that one whale specifically, but DBs are fungible.

Though at open auction I doubt the rift boots would sell for 1/10th what they sold for at the event.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I alone am 8-10 accounts.

I get two accounts, but I do not understand the 3 and more. What's the allure? Is it simply for mechanical advantage? I'm thinking it has to be for mechanical advantage only.

Do you really just "play" one person and everyone else is just support bots to the one person you play? Like when I played, I had multiple chars and I played them differently. I can't imagine trying to do that with 3 or more all at once. I don't really think you can realistically do it without scripting. And if you are scripting a personality, what's the point?

[SHAFT]

I agree to some extent. Rift boots are a different case since it was basically crafted for that one whale specifically, but DBs are fungible.

Though at open auction I doubt the rift boots would sell for 1/10th what they sold for at the event.

Do we know for sure the boots were crafted specifically for that guy?

[BLZrizz]

Do we know for sure the boots were crafted specifically for that guy?

It was probably more like "hey they this guy with functionally unlimited money is begging for an item that does X+Y+Z." They make exactly that and then reverse auction it. It sells for $28,000.

[SHAFT]

It was probably more like "hey they this guy with functionally unlimited money is begging for an item that does X+Y+Z." They make exactly that and then reverse auction it. It sells for $28,000.

Yeah, I saw the thread after the auction. Pretty wild.

[Tgo01]

I get two accounts, but I do not understand the 3 and more. What's the allure? Is it simply for mechanical advantage? I'm thinking it has to be for mechanical advantage only.

I started out with two then started a third simply because I liked the advancement aspect of the game. It's a game that basically has unlimited advancement, especially now with ascension.

Then eventually I wanted to be fully self sufficient; I wanted to heal my own guys, raise my own guys, purify my own gems, cast every spell in the game on my own guys.

Then once the novelty of that wore off I went back to my original fascination of advancement, now I can experience that same feeling again times the 203 accounts I run.

For the longest time my guys didn't even hunt together, although now most of them do, which does have its advantages in combat.

[BLZrizz]

Yeah, I saw the thread after the auction. Pretty wild.

To us mere mortals and dolphins and guppies yes. Folks sometimes cite the rift boots as something negative for the game but overall that item was a net positive and a win win for everyone involved. The devs drained millions of BS on an extremely niche item with minimal game impact and relatively low market value and the bidder received something he wanted more than the $28,000. Where it takes a wrong turn is when the entire mania basically caters to these 4-5 people.

[Tgo01]

The devs drained millions of BS on an extremely niche item with minimal game impact and relatively low market value

This is interesting though. If the item has low market value then why did it sell for so much BS? Or was he the sole bidder and that was the MB?

[BLZrizz]

This is interesting though. If the item has low market value then how did it sell for so much BS? Or was he the sole bidder and that was the MB?

In a manner of speaking yes, it was a reverse auction. So the sole bidder is the winning bidder.

[Tgo01]

In a manner of speaking yes, it was a reverse auction. So the sole bidder is the winning bidder.

Reverse auctions can be such a double edged sword. Like in this case it probably worked out for the best (in terms of draining BS), but some items could potentially go twice as high as they sell for if they did a regular auction.

I wonder why this one was a reverse auction? Weren't most of them regular auctions? I remember reading some of those and once it became a bidding war between two people they offered them both the option to stop bidding and they could both have the exact same item for the latest bid.

[BLZrizz]

Reverse auctions are perfect when you have an understanding of the upper limit of what something could go for.

[Merzbow]

Reverse auctions are perfect when you have an understanding of the upper limit of what something could go for.

Exactly. When you're reasonably confident that one whale wants a particular item with white-hot intensity but that others might not -- with some degree of uncertainty over OVER much they care -- then reverse-auction is the way to go.

[Methais]

Only one character played as well, I've made dozens of suggestions over the years on how to improve the economy, pay events that produce limitless volumes of silver are the largest issue, events where you can't spend silvers likely shouldn't have silvers as rewards, but that is water well under the bridge at this point.

I think it's all intentional tbh, and that Simu legit believes that if they kill the silver economy, then everyone will just start throwing cash at them instead. Because Simu is notorious for being short sighted and really really bad at making decisions.

Once silvers finally hit the bottom and the rest of GS tanks with it, Simu will come up with some way to blame it on everyone except Simu.

Including fire extinguisher inspections.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

because I haven't played in ages, who was the "whale" that bought $28K boots? Tsin's cousin? Inquiring minds want to know!

[Fleur-de-me]

Something tells me the GMs are afraid of pushback from whales if they try to introduce more items that are like theirs because that would devalue their own items.

Just imagine if tomorrow they sold a dozen rift boots, each would go for probably less than half of what the original guy paid for them. Something tells me that guy might be less open to spending that much money on their next item. It's like the game is being held hostage at this point.

It is being held hostage, it's been a hostage crisis ever since permanent item removal and droppage were removed and it was exacerbated by great breakage fiasco.

[Tgo01]

Including fire extinguisher inspections.

If Simu does go under someday they should put out a statement declaring the reason for it: "We could no longer afford fire extinguisher inspections."

[Fleur-de-me]

I get two accounts, but I do not understand the 3 and more. What's the allure? Is it simply for mechanical advantage? I'm thinking it has to be for mechanical advantage only.

Do you really just "play" one person and everyone else is just support bots to the one person you play? Like when I played, I had multiple chars and I played them differently. I can't imagine trying to do that with 3 or more all at once. I don't really think you can realistically do it without scripting. And if you are scripting a personality, what's the point?

For me it's pure mechanical benefit, but I see your point.

[SHAFT]

because I haven't played in ages, who was the "whale" that bought $28K boots? Tsin's cousin? Inquiring minds want to know!

I can’t recall the guys name but he spoke out in the thread. If you dig through that thread you’ll see who bought it.

[Tgo01]

because I haven't played in ages, who was the "whale" that bought $28K boots? Tsin's cousin? Inquiring minds want to know!

As some people like to point out, it wasn't necessarily 28k dollars, that was just the conversion rate for what bloodscrip was going for at the time. The guy could have gotten them much cheaper if he farmed all of his own bloodscrip. But I think that's really splitting hairs because even if he farmed his own bloodscrip that still would have been something like 20k dollars.

[Winter]

I get two accounts, but I do not understand the 3 and more. What's the allure? Is it simply for mechanical advantage?

I have 3 but there's not really a large mechanical advantage because I play the same class. The choice is mainly because in every CRPG/Dungeon crawler I've played since childhood my team will consist just of 3 elemental casters, no tanks or melee allowed! :bleh:

[Methais]

The problem with silver auctions is you flood the game with high end gear. The GM's have to create this stuff as well.

How about getting rid of bloodscript? Or even have a few DR runs where people use silvers instead of bloodscript.

Plenty of things they could do, but I doubt they will. As long as people keep buying simucoins and pay the fees for events like DR they're happy.

There are shitloads of old GS3 items, most of which are probably sitting in lockers on long dead accounts, that they could just reintroduce too. I bugged Wyrom for years about how they should rerelease old shit, like Simmer's pall bearer item (when you die, some pallbearers show up and carry your corpse to town or something like that.) I think they finally did it within the past year or so, might have been at the last DR auction.

It's not nearly as useful now as it was then, but it's still a pretty cool item to have. I don't remember how much it sold for, but I would think it went for a good amount.

There are tons of items like that from GS3 that have no direct impact on combat but still have uses and cool features that would still cause them to sell for a lot.

The items already exist, so all they'd really need to do is copy & paste and do whatever with the appearance if they want it to look different. No actual thinking or creativity is required.

[Methais]

This is interesting though. If the item has low market value then why did it sell for so much BS? Or was he the sole bidder and that was the MB?

A reverse auction only requires one bid, and he bid on it instantly iirc. Almost script instantly. There's no way he didn't know what it was before Wyrom's auctioneer character (forgot name) described it, because nobody can read that fast.


I wonder why this one was a reverse auction?

Probably to make sure that Lormaek got the item, since it was made for him. Or whatever alt he uses it on.

[SHAFT]

There are shitloads of old GS3 items, most of which are probably sitting in lockers on long dead accounts, that they could just reintroduce too. I bugged Wyrom for years about how they should rerelease old shit, like Simmer's pall bearer item (when you die, some pallbearers show up and carry your corpse to town or something like that.) I think they finally did it within the past year or so, might have been at the last DR auction.

It's not nearly as useful now as it was then, but it's still a pretty cool item to have. I don't remember how much it sold for, but I would think it went for a good amount.

There are tons of items like that from GS3 that have no direct impact on combat but still have uses and cool features that would still cause them to sell for a lot.

The items already exist, so all they'd really need to do is copy & paste and do whatever with the appearance if they want it to look different. No actual thinking or creativity is required.

I can't argue with this. The old stuff was awesome compared to a lot of the newer items.

Round up some legendary shit on banned accounts, maybe 4-5 items, and charge 10m per ticket. See what kind of interest you get.

[Fleur-de-me]

I can't argue with this. The old stuff was awesome compared to a lot of the newer items.

Round up some legendary shit on banned accounts, maybe 4-5 items, and charge 10m per ticket. See what kind of interest you get.

Get into Michaelous account and get those meditation chimes please.

[Methais]

I can't argue with this. The old stuff was awesome compared to a lot of the newer items.

Round up some legendary shit on banned accounts, maybe 4-5 items, and charge 10m per ticket. See what kind of interest you get.

Most of the items that come out now are boring as fuck. Weighting/bane/flares seem to be most high end items now instead of fun features that require creativity while also serving a purpose other than a chance that some noob standing in the room is like "Ooooooooo what cool ambience messaging!" or some shit, and anything that has a cool feature comes with like a 10 year cooldown.

Mostly.

[BLZrizz]

I think there's plenty of potential in a maintenance system. Every strike has potential to degrade a weapon, armor or shield based on its STR/DUR numbers. No damage is permanent and it can always be brought up to 100%.

If designed like forging/crafting where it's accessible to every character (with some builds having innate efficiencies), it could actually turn into a game system that could provide a revenue stream for players that choose to develop that skill. Perhaps these maintainers can also create "repair kits" that can be used in the field, sold, and traded. And add to that another entire revenue stream to upgrade STR/DUR of items for the devs...

[Fleur-de-me]

I think there's plenty of potential in a maintenance system. Every strike has potential to degrade a weapon, armor or shield based on its STR/DUR numbers. No damage is permanent and it can always be brought up to 100%.

If designed like forging/crafting where it's accessible to every character (with some builds having innate efficiencies), it could actually turn into a game system that could provide a revenue stream for players that choose to develop that skill. Perhaps these maintainers can also create "repair kits" that can be used in the field, sold, and traded. And add to that another entire revenue stream to upgrade STR/DUR of items for the devs...

Yeah we tried and failed at this, players came out with pitchforks. If there was item degradation or god forbid item removal (still) we could've largely avoided or mitigated the damage to the economy.

The problem is that players do not lose items. Once someone achieves the best gear at end game, they will never need more. There is zero risk to lose those items, and nothing that takes them out of the game (unless its a GM nerfing something for the sake of balance, estrions key ect). Whether something like Runescape's Wilderness, or a Black Zone, something needs to be able to remove items from the game. Also adds a risk-reward system to the game. And for the love of God try marketing to new faces.

[SHAFT]

Not removal, but damage. If it breaks it can’t be used until repaired. If it 100% breaks the cost goes up big time to repair to functionality.

Silvers sinks are easy. The GM’s don’t appear to be interested in it though. They want USD sinks, like simucoins and DR.

[Fleur-de-me]

Not removal, but damage. If it breaks it can’t be used until repaired. If it 100% breaks the cost goes up big time to repair to functionality.

Silvers sinks are easy. The GM’s don’t appear to be interested in it though. They want USD sinks, like simucoins and DR.

We need removal as badly as we need degradation of gear. It was a mistake to get rid of removal permanent item removal in the first place. As much as silver sinks ect would help, its like plugging a hole in a dam with a bandaid at this point. Silver sinks and grand auctions will only go so far, maybe 3-5 dollars a mil at best. The real problems are more endemic.

[Xcalibur1]

Not removal, but damage. If it breaks it can’t be used until repaired. If it 100% breaks the cost goes up big time to repair to functionality.

Silvers sinks are easy. The GM’s don’t appear to be interested in it though. They want USD sinks, like simucoins and DR.

Shaft is correct.

Back in 2017, it was 7 per and lost 1 dollar per year. We're dangerously close to 2,XX per. They don't care. And worse part is: some poors will still farm silvers... FREE MONEY! lol.

[Fleur-de-me]

Also fuck some rift boots, gimmie some Xazkruvixis boots and now we're talking. :)

[SHAFT]

Also fuck some rift boots, gimmie some Xazkruvixis boots and now we're talking. :)

No shit. I don’t want to say that those boots he got were dumb, but 28k? You could get a banthis bow, the eye of thalior, some 10x infinity padded armor and some other shit for 28k.

[SHAFT]

Shaft is correct.

Back in 2017, it was 7 per and lost 1 dollar per year. We're dangerously close to 2,XX per. They don't care. And worse part is: some poors will still farm silvers... FREE MONEY! lol.

This post clearly deserves green rep

[BLZrizz]

Yeah we tried and failed at this, players came out with pitchforks. If there was item degradation or god forbid item removal (still) we could've largely avoided or mitigated the damage to the economy.

The problem is that players do not lose items. Once someone achieves the best gear at end game, they will never need more. There is zero risk to lose those items, and nothing that takes them out of the game (unless its a GM nerfing something for the sake of balance, estrions key ect). Whether something like Runescape's Wilderness, or a Black Zone, something needs to be able to remove items from the game. Also adds a risk-reward system to the game. And for the love of God try marketing to new faces.

Maybe permanent item loss could have been done in 1998, and that's a big maybe. Now, permanent item loss would kill the game dead inside of 6 months. Have to know your audience here.

Also the last breakage proposal always centered around permanent item loss and that was, and always has been and will be, a non-starter in GS. Unfortunately, instead of designing an intermediate non-permanent maintenance system, the former staff threw their hands up and gave up. That wasn't the right solution either. The key is to provide a system that will benefit players (i.e. revenue potential) in addition to creating a new requirement.

[BLZrizz]

I only play one character.

More suggestions for silver drain:

- do away with loot from DR, make it BS only
- WPS every month with higher thresholds
- more customization for silvers, ie buy a Sady scroll of script feature for coins, nothing super high end
- pay more silver for expedited chronomage option
- town “bard” for coin
- silvers for bounty points more often
- silver pool if reach certain amount enables extra invoker
- high end silver auction here and there

Just quick ideas that came to mind.. every little bit would help keep the drain and currency stable, imho.

Nice ideas. Also thought they should find a way to crowdsource alters. People love alters and can't seem to get enough.

Allow players to volunteer to be put into a player QC pool to review alters. Player buys a scroll, pays 2 million. The alter idea gets sent to five random members of the QC pool. If all five agree, then the alter is done. Anything that isn't unanimous gets reviewed by a GM, and all completed alters get a quick once-over review by a GM as well. Each of the five reviewers gets 200k. 1m gets "sunk."

[Suppressed Poet]

As a new returning player with about 3 hours on average per week to play Gemstone, I’m going to keep grinding on these lesser orcs. One day I too shall have $2.50 worth of techno silvers.

[SonoftheNorth]

Breakage now would be a punishment not a silver sink and people are starting to have had enough.

[Fleur-de-me]

No shit. I don’t want to say that those boots he got were dumb, but 28k? You could get a banthis bow, the eye of thalior, some 10x infinity padded armor and some other shit for 28k.

Yep. Couldn't have said it better myself, give me thailor's no warding check eye. Another example of awesome gear that wont be used for fear of being nerfed.

[Xcalibur1]

I only play one character.

More suggestions for silver drain:

- do away with loot from DR, make it BS only
- WPS every month with higher thresholds
- more customization for silvers, ie buy a Sady scroll of script feature for coins, nothing super high end
- pay more silver for expedited chronomage option
- town “bard” for coin
- silvers for bounty points more often
- silver pool if reach certain amount enables extra invoker
- high end silver auction here and there

Just quick ideas that came to mind.. every little bit would help keep the drain and currency stable, imho.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Simu will do batshit nothing.

They won't raise a finger about silvers because TABOO: silvers = farming = $.

They want simustore to thrive, aka deliver shit there. They won't do anything for silvers until every farmers is gone. fucking bootlickers a la h2u and all those players grabing gms by the balls, on discord, even hinted gms to sell silvers directly from simustore.

Sad but true.

[Ufian]

breakage/maintenance are regressive, they hurt the people at the bottom the most, generally speaking.

[danielsh]

So as a thought experiment, let's imagine that at some point silvers go down to $0.01 per million. Effectively worthless in terms of USD.

What happens to the game at this point? What happens to the Elanthian economy?

I'd guess the same thing that happens anywhere in the world where the currency becomes worthless (see Venezuela or Zimbabe). Items would cost gajillions of silvers, but practically most people would want to sell their items for BS or USD. But in terms of "stable" currencies, like BS or USD, items would continue to hold their value.

The folks who lose the most in this new world are those who were exceptional at farming silvers, probably the same group that the loot caps were created for. Tough situation for them, but ultimately a small minority of players and therefore minimal impact to the broader economy.

[BLZrizz]

So as a thought experiment, let's imagine that at some point silvers go down to $0.01 per million. Effectively worthless in terms of USD.

What happens to the game at this point? What happens to the Elanthian economy?

I think you're missing something here. Your question is analogous to saying "as a thought experiment, let's imagine that someone's blood pressure becomes 00/00, what would happen to that person?"

Like blood pressure, the USD to silver rate is a measure of the overall health and interest of the game. Specifically, the extent of the nexus between in-game rewards and high end content. But the exchange rate itself doesn't "cause" anything to happen in the game economy; you will still be able to buy things from silver merchants etc. What's more likely to happen is that silver becomes more like fame and becomes a measurement of points or bragging rights, and people transact directly via other currencies or only in dollars. But this also means that nothing you do in game really affects your ability to upgrade your items (outside of extreme chance), which is a major pillar upon which the game is built.

[danielsh]

But this also means that nothing you do in game really affects your ability to upgrade your items (outside of extreme chance), which is a major pillar upon which the game is built.

Fair point - I could see this being quite destructive.

[Rjex]

But this also means that nothing you do in game really affects your ability to upgrade your items (outside of extreme chance), which is a major pillar upon which the game is built.

That's a great point and is actually the biggest downside of silvers dropping in value. Normally games at least try to pretend that you can advance through regular gameplay, but when the game's currency becomes worthless for progression all that remains is pure P2W.

[Tgo01]

That's a great point and is actually the biggest downside of silvers dropping in value. Normally games at least try to pretend that you can advance through regular gameplay, but when the game's currency becomes worthless for progression all that remains is pure P2W.

Yup. Let's be honest, Joe Casual isn't ever going to earn enough silvers to buy the top 1% of gear in the game, but at least he can farm enough silvers on his own to have his gear enchanted, or ensorcelled, or maybe buy a really kick ass weapon that's good but not quite top 1% gear worthy.

With the value of silvers dropping people are either going to start doubling, tripling, quadrupling or even more their prices for services and gear, or they will probably stop accepting silvers altogether, effectively pricing Joe Casual out of the gear game.

Honestly I'm surprised wizards and sorcs haven't already jacked up their prices in silvers with how far silver prices have fallen. Or maybe they have and I just haven't noticed yet and I'm here like a sucker still selling services as if silvers were still worth 4 dollars per mil.

[Maerit]

If nothing else, Wyrom is good at making it appear as though he's interested in the debate via his replies in Discord:


Wyrom: I can assure you, silver drains are brought up at least every month on what we can do. We know people don't just want to pay more for what they can currently get. We know they don't want tedium added that cost silver. It's a tough thing to peg. Things like auctions have resistance even from staff members (because it's a lot of work to make content there).

Ultimately, you gotta find a way to stop silver values from plummeting to avoid everyone in the game feeling like they're granted no reward for participating outside of events.

[Tgo01]

Wyrom: I can assure you, silver drains are brought up at least every month on what we can do. We know people don't just want to pay more for what they can currently get. We know they don't want tedium added that cost silver. It's a tough thing to peg. Things like auctions have resistance even from staff members (because it's a lot of work to make content there).

What a complete copout. "It's tough to do so we just do nothing!"

I actually agree with him that they shouldn't put in silver sinks for what people can currently do for free. That's fine. But like I suggested earlier where they can create an NPC who is available 24/7 in each and every town and you can buy special powerups that aren't from any spell list, and these powerups can be like +20 AS, or +50 DS, or +20 defense against CMANs, or whatever, and each costs something like 100k silvers and lasts 1 hour. Sure not everyone is going to go for it, but I bet a lot of people would get spells sometimes to help them with a difficult area or the people who just love to hunt with the biggest numbers possible. None of these powerups are necessary, it's not currently something people can get for free, and it wouldn't really alter game balance because the buffs are temporary. You can even make it so the buffs are at most refreshable so people can't just buy hundreds of hours worth at a time.

Might not do much in the grand scheme of things, but it would help.

Instead his comment is basically "Well....it's tough."

And the laughable comment that they can't do more auctions because of push back from staff members? FROM STAFF MEMBERS?!?!? The same group of people who are (presumably) forced to create more content every time a paid event comes around? Now suddenly Wyrom is like "Whoa whoa whoa! Won't someone please think of the staff members?!"

[Maerit]

There's been dozens of suggestions that are both reasonable and limit how much it would impact the simucoin sales.

1. Make the death potion town priest easier to use / find.
2. Make the chronomage allow instant teleportation for a surcharge.
3. Give a way to recharge "cheap" enhancives (the kind you don't buy a potion for) with silvers at the AG.
4. WPS wagon access more frequently (though this directly impacts warrior WPS service, which is a crap service anyway)
5. Town NPCs that give spells for silvers available 24/7 and drop the Invoker.
6. Temporary power-ups for hunting grounds that help mitigate instant death or tedium mechanics / help you overcome training thresholds.
- They did this for Hinterwilds, and they totally missed the boat. You can get power-ups from the Alchemist that cost "gigas artifacts", but completely failed to sell those for silvers instead. They could easily create similar boosts for all the capped hunting areas that might see some purchases. Like buy charges for your periapt for silvers to make getting in and out of SoS easier. Buy protection from being rifted for 15 minutes, or protection from the Rift entry mechanics so non-Voln players can enjoy the hunting ground. Temporary boosts to help with movement in the Confluence, or to make your weapons temporarily immune to being heated / cooled down.

Soooo many opportunities for QoL. Hell, even the idea of selling account-bound RPAs once a week/month for silvers is a good concept.

[Tgo01]

2. Make the chronomage allow instant teleportation for a surcharge.

On that note they could allow people to buy an item that would allow them to instantly teleport to any room in the game (not private rooms obviously) from any room in the game but each use costs like 250k or something. Again not something that would get a lot of use but I bet there would be a lot of instances where people are like "I don't feel like going over there, I'll just pay 250k to teleport there instantly."


4. WPS wagon access more frequently (though this directly impacts warrior WPS service, which is a crap service anyway)

Yeah they really should rework the way the warrior service works. Like maybe the difficulty of items is independent of other factors or something.

[Leafiara]

To answer the OP, low is too low when people no longer accept silver for anything and deal in cash and bloodscrip only. Honestly, typing out that answer makes me wonder why I accept silver for anything anymore. Maybe I should stop.

Anyway, I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that over a hundred silver sink ideas have been thrown at GMs over the past few years alone. Or, heck, even just three days ago in response to the Wyrom quote above, here were suggestions everyone brought up on Discord right afterward:


Rare fluff unlocks
Bring back old items that haven't been seen in years
Trade silvers for premium points
More frequent WPS wagons
Year-round enhancive recharging for silvers
Boat name changes
One-time-only Duskruin for silvers
Suffusing potions for silvers
Custom anything (titles, spell preps, manna bread, nightmares, sonic gear, sanctuaries, whatever)
1 RPA orb per month (or two months or quarter or whatever)
Build-an-enhancive or improve-an-enhancive




You get the point. Obviously none of these would be the be all, end all on its own, but implement enough of them and it could work. But no, the large majority of suggestions don't get implemented and the few that do get implemented aren't for silvers--instead they appear at pay events or even for premium points. It's really frustrating sometimes.

But I am pleasantly surprised that Wyrom considered the idea of letting each account buy one book of 50 Duskruin entries for 15m and asked what we thought about it and if we'd go for it, so there is that. I hope he does it, partly because it'll drain a ton of silvers and partly because it would be eye-opening as an indicator of how many people already have been buying into Duskruin with silvers via the secondary market.

Still, at some point there has to be a long-term sink.

[Tgo01]

Rare fluff unlocks
Bring back old items that haven't been seen in years
Trade silvers for premium points
More frequent WPS wagons
Year-round enhancive recharging for silvers
Boat name changes
One-time-only Duskruin for silvers
Suffusing potions for silvers
Custom anything (titles, spell preps, manna bread, nightmares, sonic gear, sanctuaries, whatever)
1 RPA orb per month (or two months or quarter or whatever)
Build-an-enhancive or improve-an-enhancive


What's crazy is a lot of this already exists and has been sold for silvers in the past, but mostly in the form of auctions. Like customizing spell prep messages and bread, it's been in the game forever. What harm is there in automating this process and allowing everyone to join in and customizing whatever the hell they want at like 5 million silvers a piece or whatever price.

It's like the GMs want too much control. They can't automate the process because what if someone alters something that they don't approve of? Clearly this would only be available for paid subscribers and have a set of guidelines and if people abuse the guidelines too much then revoke their ability to participate in the automated process.

[Tgo01]

But I am pleasantly surprised that Wyrom considered the idea of letting each account buy one book of 50 Duskruin entries for 15m and asked what we thought about it and if we'd go for it, so there is that.

Also why the hell not allow people to do this? People slog through thousands of these runs during DR, I don't think 50 runs per account is going to even make a dent in Simu's profits and may actually give it a boost because some people who have never done DR before might buy 50 runs for silvers, decide they like it, then buy some more via SimuCoins.

[gilchristr]

"So as a thought experiment, let's imagine that at some point silvers go down to $0.01 per million."

In the vein of the thought experiment idea, I think silver WPS services, which are offered at least 2x a year at unlimited amounts, would back stop the value at some amount (so long as BS held its value against $$$) even in the absence of any other silver drains

[Methais]

So as a thought experiment, let's imagine that at some point silvers go down to $0.01 per million. Effectively worthless in terms of USD.

What happens to the game at this point? What happens to the Elanthian economy?

GS literally becomes a P2W game then, and then it dies. Pretty sure both Simu and Stillfront are aware of this and are just milking what they can until that happens.

[Methais]

If nothing else, Wyrom is good at making it appear as though he's interested in the debate via his replies in Discord:


Wyrom: I can assure you, silver drains are brought up at least every month on what we can do. We know people don't just want to pay more for what they can currently get. We know they don't want tedium added that cost silver. It's a tough thing to peg. Things like auctions have resistance even from staff members (because they'd rather make money from P2W items instead).


Ultimately, you gotta find a way to stop silver values from plummeting to avoid everyone in the game feeling like they're granted no reward for participating outside of events.

Fixed the bolded part.

Anytime there actually is a big silver event, it's for the most part all Wyrom. GS is so fucked if/when he ever steps down, assuming GS hasn't died on its own by then.

[azim17]

Since we are doing thought experiments, what would happen if they simply shut off the valve for 12 months? A money plague. No coins, no gems, no skins or anyway to make coins in the game itself. Lots of silver auctions and drains implemented. I assume there are really no players this would hurt anymore. I don't think GS really gets "new" players? (maybe Im wrong on that part) Still curious what that would be like and the impact it would have.

[Tgo01]

Since we are doing thought experiments, what would happen if they simply shut off the valve for 12 months? A money plague. No coins, no gems, no skins or anyway to make coins in the game itself. Lots of silver auctions and drains implemented. I assume there are really no players this would hurt anymore. I don't think GS really gets "new" players? (maybe Im wrong on that part) Still curious what that would be like and the impact it would have.

That's tough to say. On the one hand the economy would probably stabilize since there is a fixed number of silvers out there. On the other hand it might drive even more players away from the game which would cause the prices of silver to drop even more because people have no way to earn silvers without getting them from another player.

Typically a big part of MMORPGs is an in game economy which you can farm the currency by killing mobs and finding other loot. The economy doesn't typically rely on forcing someone to get currency from other players. It would probably be a huge disaster overall.

[Winter]

I don't think all these ideas are necessary, the loot cap is more than enough it's the DR prizes which has borked the balance to give you idea, last DR I ran an average of 450 runs a day between 3 characters a day for 14 days.

So 3 lots of 2 hour runs (basically the length of 2 heroism rubs) spread over the day my eyes couldn't take any more than that, I'm not sure how some of you were running DR 16 hours day without damaging your health because it's a lot of eye strain. So over those 2 weeks I made around 126m silvers JUST from the pawn and gemshop with 100 trading ranks, that's more silvers than I generate on all 3 of my accounts in 6 months of play from the treasure system and I'm logged in almost every day. Imagine how much the people with 200+ trading playing 16 hours a day are generating.

The reason given for the cap was to stop inflation, people running DR are generating more silver than Adred ever did, also majority of the prizes are very low quality and it would be better to replace them with a token amount of BS.

If the poor prizes remain then we know that the reasons given for the loot cap were disingenuous, but I think this is all out of Wyrom's hands anyway. There was a another pay event (someone with a better memory than mine will have to remind me what it was) that pumped an enormous amount of silvers into the game and we were told it would never happen again except that it has..


.

[Alastir]

I don't think all these ideas are necessary, the loot cap is more than enough it's the DR prizes which has borked the balance to give you idea, last DR I ran an average of 450 runs a day between 3 characters a day for 14 days.

So 3 lots of 2 hour runs (basically the length of 2 heroism rubs) spread over the day my eyes couldn't take any more than that, I'm not sure how some of you were running DR 16 hours day without damaging your health because it's a lot of eye strain. So over those 2 weeks I made around 126m silvers JUST from the pawn and gemshop with 100 trading ranks, that's more silvers than I generate on all 3 of my accounts in 6 months of play from the treasure system and I'm logged in almost every day. Imagine how much the people with 200+ trading playing 16 hours a day are generating.

The reason given for the cap was to stop inflation, people running DR are generating more silver than Adred ever did, also majority of the prizes are very low quality and it would be better to replace them with a token amount of BS.

If the poor prizes remain then we know that the reasons given for the loot cap were disingenuous, but I think this is all out of Wyrom's hands anyway. There was a another pay event (someone with a better memory than mine will have to remind me what it was) that pumped an enormous amount of silvers into the game and we were told it would never happen again except that it has..


.


Sylinar Spire cubes generated a massive amount of coins.

[Winter]

Sylinar Spire cubes generated a massive amount of coins.

^^
Yeah it was that.

[Tgo01]

I don't think all these ideas are necessary, the loot cap is more than enough it's the DR prizes which has borked the balance to give you idea, last DR I ran an average of 450 runs a day between 3 characters a day for 14 days.

So 3 lots of 2 hour runs (basically the length of 2 heroism rubs) spread over the day my eyes couldn't take any more than that, I'm not sure how some of you were running DR 16 hours day without damaging your health because it's a lot of eye strain. So over those 2 weeks I made around 126m silvers JUST from the pawn and gemshop with 100 trading ranks, that's more silvers than I generate on all 3 of my accounts in 6 months of play from the treasure system and I'm logged in almost every day. Imagine how much the people with 200+ trading playing 16 hours a day are generating.

The reason given for the cap was to stop inflation, people running DR are generating more silver than Adred ever did, also majority of the prizes are very low quality and it would be better to replace them with a token amount of BS.

If the poor prizes remain then we know that the reasons given for the loot cap were disingenuous, but I think this is all out of Wyrom's hands anyway. There was a another pay event (someone with a better memory than mine will have to remind me what it was) that pumped an enormous amount of silvers into the game and we were told it would never happen again except that it has..


.

I like the idea of receiving a prize after each run, I actually found a few decent items this way.

But what they could do is make it so everything generated from DR only has a 1 silver coin value at the pawnshop/gemshop. This way people can still find potentially useful items that they can either use or sell to other players for a lot of silvers, but the item itself would generate a trivial amount of new silvers if sold to an NPC.

[Roblar]

Also why the hell not allow people to do this? People slog through thousands of these runs during DR, I don't think 50 runs per account is going to even make a dent in Simu's profits and may actually give it a boost because some people who have never done DR before might buy 50 runs for silvers, decide they like it, then buy some more via SimuCoins.


He's actually offered various books for silvers many times in the past (10, 25, 50 cts). Another Duskruin silver sink would be the 1M a pull for stuff that was previously spun for free at Mania. That was introduced last run and is coming back (chance of exp orbs, spoons, store stuff).

Not that it is enough, but its a thing and a step. The whole customized preps stuff are part of at least three pay events for years now (Summit/RW, EG, Duskruin) so not likely (and premade/ai\utomated), also I doubt they actually drain much, there's been a glut for awhile of that now.

[Leafiara]

I'm not sure how some of you were running DR 16 hours day without damaging your health because it's a lot of eye strain.I have nearly all combat messaging squelched during DR and it's more or less just two minutes of blank screen while I'm in the arena, other than the occasional crit message that slips through because I didn't know it existed. Guessing others do the same!


And before anyone goes "where's the fun in that?", it's watching the exp bar empty out and fill up with RoL brooch rubs and all the instant mind clearers and LTE boosts stored between DR events, and of course seeing what's in the prize package at the end.

Actually, wait, I think I leave the messaging for the enemy bodies being cleared out too, so there's that.

[Maerit]

Since we are doing thought experiments, what would happen if they simply shut off the valve for 12 months? A money plague. No coins, no gems, no skins or anyway to make coins in the game itself. Lots of silver auctions and drains implemented. I assume there are really no players this would hurt anymore. I don't think GS really gets "new" players? (maybe Im wrong on that part) Still curious what that would be like and the impact it would have.

I wouldn't mind if during that period you generated twice or three times the XP. Flip silver for experience which is currently the only reason for hunting.

[Methais]

Since we are doing thought experiments, what would happen if they simply shut off the valve for 12 months? A money plague. No coins, no gems, no skins or anyway to make coins in the game itself. Lots of silver auctions and drains implemented. I assume there are really no players this would hurt anymore. I don't think GS really gets "new" players? (maybe Im wrong on that part) Still curious what that would be like and the impact it would have.

Probably not much since big bank accounts will just sit idle. There really isn't shit to spend silvers on anymore.

[zhagen]

That would be crazy a 1 time silvers for experience swap..... 1mil silver per 10k experience ramping up with some restrictions

[Methais]

If the poor prizes remain then we know that the reasons given for the loot cap were disingenuous

The fact that the loot cap is turned off for DR already proves that the reasons given for the loot cap were disingenuous.

Hoy pulled in like 300-400m from one DR and either Naijin or Estild, I forgot which, basically said I was lying when I mentioned it in Discord back during the loot cap uproar. Along with the usual Discord retards sucking on their asses.

[Xcalibur1]

What a complete copout. "It's tough to do so we just do nothing!"

I actually agree with him that they shouldn't put in silver sinks for what people can currently do for free. That's fine. But like I suggested earlier where they can create an NPC who is available 24/7 in each and every town and you can buy special powerups that aren't from any spell list, and these powerups can be like +20 AS, or +50 DS, or +20 defense against CMANs, or whatever, and each costs something like 100k silvers and lasts 1 hour. Sure not everyone is going to go for it, but I bet a lot of people would get spells sometimes to help them with a difficult area or the people who just love to hunt with the biggest numbers possible. None of these powerups are necessary, it's not currently something people can get for free, and it wouldn't really alter game balance because the buffs are temporary. You can even make it so the buffs are at most refreshable so people can't just buy hundreds of hours worth at a time.

Might not do much in the grand scheme of things, but it would help.

Instead his comment is basically "Well....it's tough."

And the laughable comment that they can't do more auctions because of push back from staff members? FROM STAFF MEMBERS?!?!? The same group of people who are (presumably) forced to create more content every time a paid event comes around? Now suddenly Wyrom is like "Whoa whoa whoa! Won't someone please think of the staff members?!"

I totally agree with mini-hitler.

Doing nothing is worse than trying something.

Anything as buff costing silvers WILL be a silver drain. Making the WPS wagon permanent and a 1 month window reset would be a DAMN good silver drain. And so on.

But you guys are lacking the simustore vision that cannot be in competition with it. They need to always focus the attention on simustore and WON'T use ingame silver as a competitive method.

In other words: anything you can buy on simustore will be a tough decision to be available ingame via silvers transactions.

Worse part yet not said: You can buy almost anything on simustore nowadays... LOL

They litterally pwned themselves. Silvers are not going up bros, sorry but not sorry.

[malmuddy]

The fact that the loot cap is turned off for DR already proves that the reasons given for the loot cap were disingenuous.

Hoy pulled in like 300-400m from one DR and either Naijin or Estild, I forgot which, basically said I was lying when I mentioned it in Discord back during the loot cap uproar. Along with the usual Discord retards sucking on their asses.

If you do the math, you'll find that multiple billions of silvers are generated every DR. Or at least that's true for the recent ones. I can't speak for how many one specific person can generate, but 300M-400M is well within reason. Especially given you have people advertising multiple blocks of 1M BS for sale.

[Mobius1]

Silver sinks are certainly important, but what is the real problem, as I think a lot of people have mentioned here, is all the silver generation.

DR having rewards worth silver is a massive problem. I love the idea of keeping them, but making them worthless at the pawnshop! Fantastic idea.

I also think they just need to tweak drop rates and prices on stuff in the loot/skinning system. It's not rocket science.

[Fleur-de-me]

That would be crazy a 1 time silvers for experience swap..... 1mil silver per 10k experience ramping up with some restrictions

I could see this for Ascension XP.

[Fleur-de-me]

It's not rocket science.

Unless you work for Simutronics.

[bluecenterlight]

What I don't understand is why silver prices have continued to decline post loot cap. Has buyer demand declined?

[beldannon5]

at events you have people that sell 1000's of books and people that buy 1000's of books. They have to sell the silver they make from those = lower prices on bs and silvers, or seashells and silvers or ravioli's. it's a vicious sad cycle. Silver sinks would help!! However too many events are a problem as well.

[Tgo01]

What I don't understand is why silver prices have continued to decline post loot cap. Has buyer demand declined?

I think because there just isn't much to spend silvers on anymore. You got OSA, but I don't think a large number of players do that, and I think very few people have bought the biggest ship. And even then the biggest ship is just a one time purchase of 400 million silvers, which is just 12 accounts worth of monthly loot caps.

I think silvers have limited use at events anymore.

Other than that I can't really think of any use for silvers in game (other than incidental costs like buying a 4x weapon or something which costs like 100k or paying for Chronomage tickets or whatnot.)

I think people mostly use silvers as an easy medium between other currencies (whether it's other in game currencies such as bloodscip or real life money) because it's something everyone has and most people still accept silvers as payment because it still holds some value.

Once that value drops too low though then pretty much everyone is going to stop accepting silvers as payment, which is gonna piss off a lot of people.

[Mobius1]

I really think a lot of this is overblown. You can't necessarily use cash to silver rate as a baseline metric for the economy and the value of silvers in game.

The cost of in game items and services don't really seem to be changing, which is what I feel is the better metric. My silvers are buying me the same amount as they have been for a long time.

[Tgo01]

The cost of in game items and services don't really seem to be changing, which is what I feel is the better metric. My silvers are buying me the same amount as they have been for a long time.

Which is the really crazy part. It's like once a general silver price is set then everyone kind of just sticks to that price point.

Like I mentioned earlier look at fixstats potions, something that has a measurable real world value and a measurable in game value (both because you can buy it via the SimuCoin store for real money and 1 million bounty points in game), yet the standard price has been 16 million silvers since forever, back when silvers were going for 7 bucks per million and now when they are hovering between 2.5 and 3 dollars per million.

No one seems to want to be the one to say "Okay my fixstats are worth 20 million silvers because the value of silvers has decreased."

It could also be because fixstats are generally a one time use per character and not every character bothers to buy them. But even services such as enchanting and ensorcelling, which could have many, many uses on a per character basis, this still happens.

Yet this same phenomenon doesn't extend to converting in game currency (any of them, not just silvers) to real life money, people have no problem saying "Okay too many silvers out there in the virtual world, time to lower my prices."

I bet an expert in some sort of field would have a field day researching this.

[Mobius1]

Which is the really crazy part. It's like once a general silver price is set then everyone kind of just sticks to that price point.

Like I mentioned earlier look at fixstats potions, something that has a measurable real world value and a measurable in game value (both because you can buy it via the SimuCoin store for real money and 1 million bounty points in game), yet the standard price has been 16 million silvers since forever, back when silvers were going for 7 bucks per million and now when they are hovering between 2.5 and 3 dollars per million.

No one seems to want to be the one to say "Okay my fixstats are worth 20 million silvers because the value of silvers has decreased."

It could also be because fixstats are generally a one time use per character and not every character bothers to buy them. But even services such as enchanting and ensorcelling, which could have many, many uses on a per character basis, this still happens.

Yet this same phenomenon doesn't extend to converting in game currency (any of them, not just silvers) to real life money, people have no problem saying "Okay too many silvers out there in the virtual world, time to lower my prices."

I bet an expert in some sort of field would have a field day researching this.

Well, first of all, you can't base the prices for those on Simucoin store costs. The people selling them for those prices are trading bounty points for them, so it's a matter of what they value their bounty points at. The simucoin store cost is just overpriced.

I think the price of silvers for cash is an interesting metric, and maybe has some value. But even those prices are dependent on several factors.

In the end, all I am saying, is the buying power of silver is still there in game, so all this talk of doom and gloom is simply not founded in reality.

[Tgo01]

Well, first of all, you can't base the prices for those on Simucoin store costs. The people selling them for those prices are trading bounty points for them, so it's a matter of what they value their bounty points at. The simucoin store cost is just overpriced.

Well yeah but my point is the SimuCoin store places a fixed ceiling on fixstat potions. If silvers were selling for 20 dollars per million then there is no way someone would pay 16 million silvers for a fixstats potion because it would be cheaper to sell the silvers and buy the potion directly from the SimuCoin store. Then we can measure a relative worth in game too because it has a fixed price of 1 million bounty points in game.


In the end, all I am saying, is the buying power of silver is still there in game, so all this talk of doom and gloom is simply not founded in reality.

I think it's only because silvers still have a real world value though. Even 2.5 dollars per million silvers is still a value. Now if by this time next year silvers are selling for 10 cents per million then I think the costs of things in terms of silvers will shoot up drastically or people will only accept other forms of currency.

I think the only way this would change is if the GMs finally add something worthwhile to spend silvers on on a daily basis that are pretty popular. If that happens and for some reason silvers are still selling for 10 cents per million then I could see silvers still being used for transactions.

[Mobius1]

Well
I think it's only because silvers still have a real world value though. Even 2.5 dollars per million silvers is still a value. Now if by this time next year silvers are selling for 10 cents per million then I think the costs of things in terms of silvers will shoot up drastically or people will only accept other forms of currency.


Hmm, but you can only take that metric at arms length. For example, the price simply couldn't drop to 10 cents per million because it would not be worth the seller's time to earn the silvers. If the cost of silvers gets too low, then you will have less people selling them, which would cause the price to go up. Therefore you'd see a price increase that happened for the sole reason that fewer people are selling at the time. Like I said, it has far too many factors to accurately represent the state of the economy in game.

For example, someone could get banned that was a huge silver seller. Or a new seller could suddenly enter the market. Both of those factors would impact the silver for cash market, but have little to do with the state of the silver economy in game.

[drumpel]

I can't honestly see the GMs being able to provide anything worthwhile that would be a true silver drain for the game. A silver auction every 3-5 years isn't going to do anything and the WPS taking silvers isn't going to do it.

Silvers used to have a meaning behind them. You'd attend an event, any event and the payment method to buy something was silvers, period. As soon as secondary and then a tertiary currency was introduced, the GMs essentially gave silvers the middle finger and they don't give a fuck about them.

There are zero ways to return to having silvers as being a viable in-game currency for things unless they completely disown the alt currencies. I miss the days of events from the box office, buy that ticket to let you gain entrance to the event for the week and let you drain you millions of silvers (usually it was around 15 million for me, back then that was a lot for me) on items and services. Now it's pay $ for entry fees to almost everything and you can maybe use silvers to possibly buy some item from a merchant stall that sells crap that no one really likes, wants, needs or even asked for.

Anyone here wishing things went back to normal for the silver currency, fucking get over it. It's done. The GMs have officially done what they set out to do, make silvers worthless while milking as much as they can in alt currencies. You guys have no one to blame, but yourselves. I won't give those gold digging dikes an extra penny of mine for alt currencies. I make use of the freebie Simu Coins that I build up and put them towards one of the DRs every year to get some BS...blood script?....bullshit?....same difference if you ask me. I then use that script for two things, the WPS that you can easily obtain invites to after just a few runs in the sewers and collecting slabs from the slab generator for forging.

Wyorm doesn't give a shit about silvers. It seems he still has a soft spot once enough people bitch and then he does one of his silver only auctions every 3-5 years. It might drain out billions of silvers, but it pales in comparison to the amount of silvers that the game generates between his silver auctions. He's not going to ditch the big money making aspects of alt currencies in the game just to make some people feel better about silvers.

Outside of buying some items from playershops, I think I'm sitting on around 75-100mil in silvers between my characters. It seems like a lot, but it's just a drop in the bucket compared to other peoples in-game bank accounts. I have nothing to spend these silvers on in game. Even if I use of the freebie Simu Coins to buy a game pass for EG, you make back around 85% of your silvers spent on digging and the return you get on the now shitty, nonexistent T5 items that are now stupid flare tokens doesn't make me want to play the games. I keep my silvers and they do absolutely fucking nothing for me in game, outside of some basic items I pick up in playershops.

[SHAFT]

Silvers were declining, then they introduced multiple forms of new currency. Yikes

[BLZrizz]

In the end, all I am saying, is the buying power of silver is still there in game, so all this talk of doom and gloom is simply not founded in reality.

This is patently wrong, easily disproven with PC post sales data:

+49 Boots - offered for 160m (2008)
http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?36792-10x-DB-Boots-from-www-GSAuctions-com

+49 DB boots - sold for 425m (2016)
http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?103179-49-DB-boots-T1-claid-high-end-plate-and-cloak-permablessed-greatsword-and-more!

You'd be hard pressed to find a 1x DB for 500m today. As I've stated before, the silver to dollar price is a representation of the link between in game efforts and high end items/upgrades. GS4 is an aspirational game. People aspire to high end content, few likely aspire to fixskills or a fixstat. The ability to achieve the high end content via in-game efforts is essentially severed (as reflected in the silver to USD rate and the general inability to buy high end items via silver), and that is not a good sign for the game.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Wow, sold multiple 10x db items (cloak, pin and boots) for 80-100M in/around 2004?

[SHAFT]

Wow, sold multiple 10x db items (cloak, pin and boots) for 80-100M in/around 2004?

One thing that did rise in value were DB's. Massively.

[BLZrizz]

One thing that did rise in value were DB's. Massively.

Yes, largely due to an odd collector with seemingly unlimited funds who rarely plays and just gets rolled when he does. I was nearly convinced that the individual was actually a simu proxy that was buying them up to take them out of the game.

[BLZrizz]

Another way to think of silver prices is what I refer to as "opportunity cost implied subscription rate."

Let's say in 2004 it took someone, on average, 6 hours to generate 1 million silver. At the silver rates back then, people were, in theory, willing to pay $15 to spend that six hours doing other things in the game rather than grinding for silver. This implied that people (i.e. the market) were valuing that in game time very highly, willing to "pay" $15 to spend 6 hours in the game not grinding.

Let's say now in 2022 it takes someone, on average 3 hours to generate 1 million silver given it is much easier now, easier to get rescues, harder to die, etc. Now, people only value that 3 hours of in game effort at $2.50, implying that there isn't as much value being placed in experiencing non-silver generating activities. So it paints an even more dour picture than a straight examination of the silver to USD conversion rate.

[Mobius1]

Wyorm doesn't give a shit about silvers. It seems he still has a soft spot once enough people bitch and then he does one of his silver only auctions every 3-5 years. It might drain out billions of silvers, but it pales in comparison to the amount of silvers that the game generates between his silver auctions. He's not going to ditch the big money making aspects of alt currencies in the game just to make some people feel better about silvers.

Outside of buying some items from playershops, I think I'm sitting on around 75-100mil in silvers between my characters. It seems like a lot, but it's just a drop in the bucket compared to other peoples in-game bank accounts. I have nothing to spend these silvers on in game. Even if I use of the freebie Simu Coins to buy a game pass for EG, you make back around 85% of your silvers spent on digging and the return you get on the now shitty, nonexistent T5 items that are now stupid flare tokens doesn't make me want to play the games. I keep my silvers and they do absolutely fucking nothing for me in game, outside of some basic items I pick up in playershops.

I must disagree with you on this. The very fact that they implemented the cap shows it's important to them. That was a change that literally lost them subs. I also believe it's very often discussed and monitored by Wyrom.

Now, your last point is an interesting one, which I have been noticing myself. But I don't think it has anything to do with the value of silvers at all. The game is just simply old enough, that many players have their end game gear and are satisfied. It's also made a lot of what I'd call "mid grade" items absolutely tank in price. So you have 7x T5 10 CER armor? No one cares anymore - you'll get pennies for it. Just look at my stupid fusion armor I can't bloody sell! It's freaking awesome and can hardly even give it away!

[SHAFT]

Hardly anyone is even hitting the cap. I think estild said one person so far.

[Tgo01]

Hardly anyone is even hitting the cap. I think estild said one person so far.

Probably because a lot of people just give up before reaching it. It's not just a hard cap, there is a soft cap that progressively gets more and more harsh the closer you get to the 35 million hard cap. By the time you reach 30-32 million silvers you're practically earning nothing.

[drumpel]

I must disagree with you on this. The very fact that they implemented the cap shows it's important to them. That was a change that literally lost them subs. I also believe it's very often discussed and monitored by Wyrom.

Now, your last point is an interesting one, which I have been noticing myself. But I don't think it has anything to do with the value of silvers at all. The game is just simply old enough, that many players have their end game gear and are satisfied. It's also made a lot of what I'd call "mid grade" items absolutely tank in price. So you have 7x T5 10 CER armor? No one cares anymore - you'll get pennies for it. Just look at my stupid fusion armor I can't bloody sell! It's freaking awesome and can hardly even give it away!

He doesn't care about silvers. The cap was to limit the amount that was coming in from a few people and to help drive the need for silvers down.

If I really wanted to I could run a couple of my characters through certain areas where you can get skins and loot from creatures that aren't heavily hunted, if at all at times, and easily pull 3mil a day with just 8 hours of hunting (in theory you could do more if you were to put more time into it, but it's so boring). It's not hard to do, but it's boring as hell.

Earning silvers still isn't difficult, but when he put the cap in and it drove some folks off and turned others away from silver grinding, that was his goal. Drive out those that are driving the silver. Now that the silver grinders are fewer, the overall silver generation is down. Keep on selling alt currencies, ignore silvers and the third party prices on silvers will continue to fall due to lack of use in game.

Nothing he can do will ever change silvers and how they're used in game anymore if they keep the alt currencies.

[Mobius1]

I can tell you that he has more insight than us armchair critics.

I'm not going to buy into the whole "He's doing it on purpose" thing, because there's just no grounds and that's just turning it into a conspiracy.

But I do wonder why they don't just limit silver generation much more than they do, because that seems like the simplest solution to me. But it's also true that the economy is anything but simple, so maybe there's a lot more to it.

[BLZrizz]

The whole "Wyrom doesn't care about silver trope" is nonsensical I can even point to PC posts on his player account (prior to him becoming GM/PM) where he is complaining about lack of silver sinks. Oh yeah, and as a GS4 product manager he has a vested and direct interest in ensuring that the game runs as long as possible with as many players as possible generating sustainable revenue. The decline of silver (and the player/revenue base) is not good for him personally.

Let's parse his decision set:

a) what he wants to do personally and as a former player
b) what is he able to do technologically (is it codable in a reasonable time)
c) what he is able to do from a population and game management perspective
d) what he is able to do in terms of actual authority from Stillfront, simu, etc.

Even looking at this rather simplified matrix, even a basic decision that looks obvious to us whiny players may be subject to influences we only have a vague idea of. Kinda like when a presidential candidate promises X, Y and Z during a campaign. Then they finally get into office and see all the stuff behind the curtain and are all like...oh crap, I can't actually fulfill many of those promises.

The loot cap was/is a good thing and it drove the right kind of people out of the game. Not bad people necessarily, but not good for the game long term.

[Tgo01]

The whole "Wyrom doesn't care about silver trope" is nonsensical I can even point to PC posts on his player account (prior to him becoming GM/PM) where he is complaining about lack of silver sinks. Oh yeah, and as a GS4 product manager he has a vested and direct interest in ensuring that the game runs as long as possible with as many players as possible generating sustainable revenue. The decline of silver (and the player/revenue base) is not good for him personally.

I don't think Wyrom doesn't care in the sense that he's twirling his handlebar mustache while tying the silver economy onto a set of railroad tracks. I think he doesn't care in the sense that the game keeps bringing in record profits, so why worry about something like the in game silver economy? It seems like after every paid event he always posts something on Discord along the lines of "This event brought in 15% more money than it did last year!"

I think he'll start looking into what is wrong with the game when profits start going down, and by then it might be too late.

[BLZrizz]

I don't think Wyrom doesn't care in the sense that he's twirling his handlebar mustache while tying the silver economy onto a set of railroad tracks. I think he doesn't care in the sense that the game keeps bringing in record profits, so why worry about something like the in game silver economy? It seems like after every paid event he always posts something on Discord along the lines of "This event brought in 15% more money than it did last year!"

I think he'll start looking into what is wrong with the game when profits start going down, and by then it might be too late.

I'm no GM apologist, I think there's too much dithering and a bit of "fiddling while Rome burns" here, which I guess is part of your point. As I said, I'm not sure what his constraints are. For all we know, it may be imposed by corporate that he cannot make any major changes unless the revenue dips year over year. For our sake and his, I hope the powers that be don't have their hopes pinned on five whales whose fortunes rise and fall with crypto. The record profits are not sustainable and the cracks are already visible in the system; we're already in "too late territory".

I'm less concerned about the silver rate than I am about unique players in game. I stopped by Teras to check out a hunting area the other day and was at the statue and it was nothing but zombies. No conversation. Couldn't even get healing. That to me was a worse sign of the times than the silver rate.

[Tgo01]

I stopped by Teras to check out a hunting area the other day and was at the statue and it was nothing but zombies. No conversation. Couldn't even get healing. That to me was a worse sign of the times than the silver rate.

I think one is a symptom of the other.

[Rjex]

If you noticed prices of things haven't increased in response to the weakness of silver, which can only mean that demand for everything got deflated across the board. I think we're just seeing a combination of people moving on with their lives after their covid fix, having uncertainty over profession reviews, being driven away by overzealous GM policing, etc. We're probably in for a pretty weak DR as well.

[gs4Pawn]

If you noticed prices of things haven't increased in response to the weakness of silver, which can only mean that demand for everything got deflated across the board. I think we're just seeing a combination of people moving on with their lives after their covid fix, having uncertainty over profession reviews, being driven away by overzealous GM policing, etc. We're probably in for a pretty weak DR as well.

We're probably in for a pretty weak DR as well.

I think your 100% right there.

It will not be as good as the last few ones. I don't think I'll pick up 12-15k Amex points this run thru.

[gs4Pawn]

Thousands of books?

that's around 35k USD per 1000 books isn't it?

[gs4Pawn]

The fact that the loot cap is turned off for DR already proves that the reasons given for the loot cap were disingenuous.

Hoy pulled in like 300-400m from one DR and either Naijin or Estild, I forgot which, basically said I was lying when I mentioned it in Discord back during the loot cap uproar. Along with the usual Discord retards sucking on their asses.

Those numbers are not remotely far off at all. Actually you can make much more from DR depending on how fast you are, and How quickly you can cycle thru stuff.

its just a big big grind. I know a few that are very very fast at clearing it. (sub 1:45?) and can keep it up for a long period of time.

I don't see any reason why they would put in a lot of work towards Draining silvers. There's no real compensation for doing that. Why spend the time doing that when you can work on other content for DR /Rumor / Ebon where you get a % of the Real life profits.

Its unfortunate. I have bought some crazy stuff over the years for under 50m. Now, 50m is a just another HoHum that goes in the locker (If theres room).

[Mobius1]

Ok Chicken Little's

[zennsunni]

The value of silvers is still inflated on account of a fetishization of the commodity and willingness to not sell.

[Tgo01]

I was just sitting here looking at the thousands of login boosts I have earned over the years that I will never use (looking at you random magical crystals, urchin runner uses, and urchin guide access), and thinking "Gosh it sure would be nice if the GMs allowed you to trade in boosts you'll never use for boosts you'll actually use." I know it would require some conversion because a Gift of the God is much more useful than a random magical crystal so you can't just do a 1:1 conversion rate.

But I digress. I was looking at all of this and then it hit me "Whoa! What a potential use for silvers!" Allow people to BUY these boosts with silvers!

These are things that already exist in the game, you can't currently access them for free (other than daily login rewards, and go ahead and keep those), and they aren't shit you can get on the SimuCoin store and wouldn't really affect any of their paid events.

There are lots of boosts I would actually pay silver for. If they are worried about the potential for abuse for some of the more useful ones (instant mind clearers and double experience boosts) then either gate them behind high silver costs (like 1-10 million silvers a pop or something) or limit how many each character can buy to like 15-30 a month or something.

Do it already, GMs! Make it so!

[gs4Pawn]

Should be be level based.

IE at 20m exp getting 20 boosts isn't the same as getting 20 at level 4

[Mobius1]

It's probably only a matter of time before they have XP for money. Which is the one damn thing I'd probably spend a lot of money on! (I guess there's RoL)

[Methais]

I'm less concerned about the silver rate than I am about unique players in game. I stopped by Teras to check out a hunting area the other day and was at the statue and it was nothing but zombies. No conversation. Couldn't even get healing. That to me was a worse sign of the times than the silver rate.

This is always the case on Teras, mainly because Nelemar 3rd floor is such easy mode that almost everyone ;bigshots it because they suck too much to survive anywhere else.

I usually go to Teras near the end of the month once I'm loot capped or close to it, since the exp there is still super fast. Can't remember the last time I ran into someone who was at their keyboard though, either in town or in Nelemar.

If Simu really had a hardon for busting afk scripters and needed a fix, Nelemar is the place to look. Pretty sure they know this though, and the scripting policy is overall more relaxed under Wyrom iirc, to where if nobody's reporting you, then you're very unlikely to get script checked.

Even with reports it still seems to take a lot before anything is done. i.e. Villorn.


EDIT:


villorn got an indefinite ban a week or so ago

Yes, but it took a pretty long time before anything at all got done is what I was saying. Once Simu started doing something about it, he got pwned pretty quick.

[Orthin]

This is always the case on Teras, mainly because Nelemar 3rd floor is such easy mode that almost everyone ;bigshots it because they suck too much to survive anywhere else.

I usually go to Teras near the end of the month once I'm loot capped or close to it, since the exp there is still super fast. Can't remember the last time I ran into someone who was at their keyboard though, either in town or in Nelemar.

If Simu really had a hardon for busting afk scripters and needed a fix, Nelemar is the place to look. Pretty sure they know this though, and the scripting policy is overall more relaxed under Wyrom iirc, to where if nobody's reporting you, then you're very unlikely to get script checked.

Even with reports it still seems to take a lot before anything is done. i.e. Villorn.


EDIT:



Yes, but it took a pretty long time before anything at all got done is what I was saying. Once Simu started doing something about it, he got pwned pretty quick.

I’ve been hanging out there for a month or so now and I have no problem finding spells from folks. There are definitely folks who are around. I don’t think it’s the majority by any means but definitely plenty of folks.

And I rescue folks there and interact when resting. Sometimes though I’ll go chill at voln when resting but that’s when I go play hearthstone