Training Question Postcap 2x+

[bluecenterlight]

Hoping to get some thoughts on a training choice.

50 ranks of Dodge vs 3x HP.

[Tgo01]

Can't go wrong with 3x HP. Dodge is very expensive for a wizard and for not much return really.

[drumpel]

I did some testing some time back and found that 50 ranks of any skill that goes into the defense of your SMRv2 defense is pretty much worthless once you hit a certain threshold, especially at capped level.

30 ranks of dodge (earned through 5 ranks cunning defense) nets you 1-2 points of SMRv2 defense. Going 50 ranks will guarantee you 2 to maybe 3 points of SMRv2. If you feel the cost of TPs to get that 50 ranks of dodge is well worth the cost and the very small benefit it might offer in return, go for it.

[bluecenterlight]

Digging around in Discord mechanics I saw Naijin mention a few things that had me unsure of how much I understand SMR.

9.18 Referring to CDef rank 5 "So 20 cman ranks gives you 50 equivalent SMR defense ranks."

So CDef rank 5 ,+ 50 dodge ranks + dodge from 911 (min 20) would effectively be 100 ranks for SMR def? With the addition of the 50 dodge ranks helping non-SMR defense.

And to your point Drump, I saw mentions of the diminishing returns, so it is a good point and something to consider. I'm working on finishing 3x HP anyway, I just figured a dead wizard is worse than one with no mana.

[Rinualdo]

I did some testing some time back and found that 50 ranks of any skill that goes into the defense of your SMRv2 defense is pretty much worthless once you hit a certain threshold, especially at capped level.

30 ranks of dodge (earned through 5 ranks cunning defense) nets you 1-2 points of SMRv2 defense. Going 50 ranks will guarantee you 2 to maybe 3 points of SMRv2. If you feel the cost of TPs to get that 50 ranks of dodge is well worth the cost and the very small benefit it might offer in return, go for it.


I believe it is way more than this.

[drumpel]

The whole problem with SRM system is that it is designed to not be static, so you're screwed under the system no matter what due to the open roll system. The PSM3 changes that tanked SMR defense for wizards was the biggest issue I've had with PSM changes. Every wizard (outside of being way past cap with tons and tons of ranks in all sorts of every skill) had lost upwards of 15 points of SMR defense. Most of us pures only had around a 15-20% chance to be hit by a non-open roll SMR maneuver. With the PSM3 change and tanking of SMR defense, we went from that 15-20% getting hit to 30-35% chance of getting hit.

Then you top it all off with the fact pures are almost always in soft leather so the crit divisor is shit compared to rigid leather or especially once chain armor comes into play. Now we're easier to hit with SMR abilities and there is a very good chance of dying instantly from the hit or being put in a position where you're prone and stunned and pretty much guaranteed death if another SMR maneuver is used against you due to the fast stacking of the bonus adjustment for SMRv2.

The paltry return we see from all the extensive training and TPs dumped into SMR defense skills doesn't make up for the tanked SMR defense imposed upon us.

My warmage, he's 1x in CM, FP and perception. A like level pure mage is only 1x in perception and FP, yet my warmage sees almost no difference in his SMR defense compared to a pure mage. The returns are shit for the SMR system, no matter how you look at it for pures.


As for diminishing returns, they seem to trigger for every 100 ranks you can learn in SMR defense skills. I don't have my testing information on me, but it is noticeable.

I can't find the info I posted about the minimal return in SMR defense after obtaining 5 ranks of CD; which, yes, does net you 50 skill ranks to boost your SMR defense, but the return you actually see is paltry, at best.

All I'm saying is, do a couple of points of SMR defense actually equate to being useful for a wizard at the high TP cost to train in dodging?
I'd say no, unless you have absolutely no other places to spend TPs, but that's just my take on it.

[Rinualdo]

I think some of that is inaccurate Drumpel.

SMR ranks for CM/Dodge/Perception are co-equal and linear. What changes the equation is your stance, critter stance, your lvl vs their level, if its a known spell, and if that spell utilizes all SMR defenses (boil earth as an example).

If you take a baseline of a pure in the same stance defending against the same unknown maneuver, you would see more than 1-2 point increase on the SMR roll going from 0x perception to 1x, you would see the same delta going from 1x to 2x, and against a different creature of the same level, you would also see the same numerical difference. You would see the same difference going from 0x perception to 1x perception as you would going from 0x CM to 1x CM assuming you didn't spend those points. CDEF would obviously increase that in most cases.

[Methais]

Hoping to get some thoughts on a training choice.

50 ranks of Dodge vs 3x HP.

Max out all of your magic stuff before you start picking up massive TP sinks like that. Once you start picking up physical skills, I'd probably do CM first. It's way cheaper than dodging and still worth 0.5 AS/DS per rank.

[drumpel]

I think some of that is inaccurate Drumpel.

SMR ranks for CM/Dodge/Perception are co-equal and linear. What changes the equation is your stance, critter stance, your lvl vs their level, if its a known spell, and if that spell utilizes all SMR defenses (boil earth as an example).

If you take a baseline of a pure in the same stance defending against the same unknown maneuver, you would see more than 1-2 point increase on the SMR roll going from 0x perception to 1x, you would see the same delta going from 1x to 2x, and against a different creature of the same level, you would also see the same numerical difference. You would see the same difference going from 0x perception to 1x perception as you would going from 0x CM to 1x CM assuming you didn't spend those points. CDEF would obviously increase that in most cases.

I went back through old posts, but most of the info I found playing around with SMRv2 defense can't be brought up due to tables error that the forums has been having problems with for the past 8-12 months (maybe longer?)

Here was some info I was able to find, but it's not as complete as what I've posted in other topics for my findings, but due to tables not work on the forums you can't pull up those past posts/topics:

Casting mage = 96


Rogue, dwarf, level 49.
No skills, no armor, defensive stance
SMRv2 defense = 184
10 ranks, SMRv2 = 179
20 ranks, SMRv2 = 175
30 ranks, SMRv2 = 171
40 ranks, SMRv2 = 167
50 ranks, SMRv2 = 164
60 ranks, SMRv2 = 161
70 ranks, SMRv2 = 158
80 ranks, SMRv2 = 155
90 ranks, SMRv2 = 153
100 ranks, SMRv2 = 150
110 ranks, SMRv2 = 148
120 ranks, SMRv2 = 146
130 ranks, SMRv2 = 143
140 ranks, SMRv2 = 141
150 ranks, SMRv2 = 139

0-50 ranks nets 20 SMR defense.
50-100 ranks nets 14 SMR defense.
That's roughly 1 SMR defense point per 3 ranks for the first 100 SMR ranks.

100-150 ranks nets 11 SMR defense
If memory serves me right, ranks 150-200 wound net around 8-9 SMR defense
That's roughly 1 SMR defense point per 5 ranks for ranks 100-200


Wizard, dark elf, level 72
No skills, no armor, defensive stance (I can't remember if this wizard had any spells active, but with all my testing I never had spells active on a target)
SMRv2 defense = 101
10 ranks, SMRv2 = 99
20 ranks, SMRv2 = 97
30 ranks, SMRv2 = 95
40 ranks, SMRv2 = 93
50 ranks, SMRv2 = 90
60 ranks, SMRv2 = 88
70 ranks, SMRv2 = 86
80 ranks, SMRv2 = 84
90 ranks, SMRv2 = 82
100 ranks, SMRv2 = 80
110 ranks, SMRv2 = 79
120 ranks, SMRv2 = 77
130 ranks, SMRv2 = 76
140 ranks, SMRv2 = 74
150 ranks, SMRv2 = 73

0-50 ranks nets 11 SMR defense
50-100 ranks nets 8 SMR defense
That's roughly 1 SMR defense per 5 ranks for the first 100 SMR ranks.

100-150 ranks nets 7 SMR defense
and if memory serves me right, ranks 150-200 net around 5 SMR defense
That's roughly 1 SMR defense per 8 ranks for ranks 100-200


The best defense you can really gain for SMR is closing the level gap. The closer you are level to your target, the better your SMR defense will be. The higher the level you are, it appears the less you see in return for your SMR defense based on skills known.

They won't release the equation as to how SMR defense is calculated so we may never know exactly how things all play out, but we can draw conclusions based off enough testing. From what I can tell, the higher level you are, the less SMR defense you gain from SMR defense skills due to how the SMR equation is designed.

[Rinualdo]

Here's some info


Naijin
I got a bonus of 8-9 or so at level 50'ish on my Cleric. 20 ranks of CMAN, 5 ranks CDefense, 1x perception/pf.




is there scaling? So 0x perception to 1x perception providing a different value than 1x to 2x?
Naijin
No



are there different values from creatures of like level against unknown maneuvers? like a lvl 100 radical and a 100 griffon? In those instances, would the difference from 0x perception to 1x perception also show the same delta in the visible SMR roll?
Naijin
It will show the same delta.
The net result may vary based on a number of factors, but you should have the same delta from adding 1x perception to both instances.

[drumpel]

Here's some info

I'm not sure what you're thinking or trying to get across here, but you're not telling me anything I don't already know.

What you're saying is what has already been known; that every rank earned in Percpetion/PF/Dodge/CM are all weighted equally in the equation - yes, we know this.
100 ranks of perception is the same as 100 ranks of CM or Dodge or PF.
200 ranks of perception is the same as 200 ranks of CM or Dodge or PF.

What I'm saying is that there is a diminishing return to your actual SMR defense you see in the visible roll that shows up on the screen based on information I've seen from testing things out.



Think of it this way.

Every spell rank up to your level gives you +1 to your casting power.
Once your spell ranks exceed your level, you only earn +.5 for every spell rank known.

If you're level 100 and you have 120 spell ranks, you're casting power would be increased by 110 (100 for the spell ranks up to your level + (20/2) for the 20 spell ranks past your level. So you end up with an increase in power of 100 + 10 = 110)


The same thing appears to apply to SMR defense. There is a diminishing return in the actual SMR defense you see come up on the visible roll.

That's why I say it's not really going to benefit you much to sink 50 ranks into dodge as a pure, simply due to the low SMR defense you'd get in return. I'd only suggest dumping TPs into dodge if it was the last thing on your list of skills to train in.

[Rinualdo]

What I'm saying is that there is a diminishing return to your actual SMR defense you see in the visible roll that shows up on the screen based on information I've seen from testing things out.

The same thing appears to apply to SMR defense. There is a diminishing return in the actual SMR defense you see come up on the visible roll.


Not at odds with?


is there scaling? So 0x perception to 1x perception providing a different value than 1x to 2x?
Naijin
No

[drumpel]

Not at odds with?



is there scaling? So 0x perception to 1x perception providing a different value than 1x to 2x?
Naijin
No



He's confirming that there is no difference in how the ranks are added up. Every single rank you earn gives the same value in the behind the scene equation.

In other words, 100 ranks of perception and adding 100 ranks more (for 200 ranks) is no different than 100 ranks of perception + 100 ranks of Dodge (or CM or FP)

You're mixing things up I think. You seem to be thinking that ranks = actual SMR defense when in reality, ranks /= actual SMR defense. Ranks are just a part of the hidden equation that helps determine your SMR defense. The more ranks you have, the more SMR defense you can build up, but ranks and SMR defense are not the same.


The equation is probably built off a seed/summation chart like lores are with some spells.

Take spell 511 for example.
It as a seed 10 applied to it for EL:A ranks known. At 10 ranks of Air Lore you get the first bonus to spell 511 to give you an extra disk space. Every next disk space requires the previous amount of ranks +1.
At 0 ranks you don't get extra disk space (total of 8 spaces)
At 10 ranks you gain +1 extra space (total of 9)
At 21 ranks you gain +2 extra spaces (total of 10)
At 33 ranks you gain +3 extra spaces (total of 11)
At 46 ranks you gain +4 extra spaces (total of 12)
At 60 ranks you gain +5 extra spaces (total of 13)
.....
At 208 ranks you gain +13 extra spaces (total of 21)



Perhaps a similar system is in place for SMR defense. We'll say it uses a 4 seed.
After 4 ranks you get +1 SMR defense (1 total)
After 9 ranks you get an extra +1 SMR defense (2 total)
After 15 ranks you get an extra +1 SMR defense (3 total)
After 22 ranks you get an extra +1 SMR defense (4 total)
After 30 ranks you get an extra +1 SMR defense (5 total)
After 39 ranks you get an extra +1 SMR defense (6 total)


There's a diminishing return here. You put in so many ranks, but eventually the extra +1 to your SMR defense become harder and harder to earn.