CMANs for Sorcerers

[nindon]

If you have CMAN points after the Phase 3 maneuver update, what should you do with those points? This is how I would rank the CMANs available to Sorcerers, beginning with most desirable:

(1) Disarm Weapon - for defensive purposes, but it can be fun to *try* to disarm a critter from time to time.

(2) Combat Movement - defends against all types of maneuvers.

(3) Retreat - this is new, and I am still researching it. I've only used it a few times. It does not appear to work as described in the Phase 3 wiki page (https://gswiki.play.net/Player_System_Manager_-_Phase_3). That page describes Retreat as causing you to be "Disengaged" from an opponent. When you look up the meaning of "Disengaged" elsewhere in the same document, it is described as (I'm simplifying) having a 10% chance of being ignored by a like-level target. Based on my few tests, it seems to be 100%. The cost per rank for Retreat, which is not listed on the wiki, is 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10. I've tried it on Vvrael Destroyers in the Rift and Elementals in the Confluence. It works great on Destroyers. They ignore me for 15 seconds. It doesn't work well at all on Elementals. I believe there is a bug in the interaction between Pestilence flares and the way that Elementals behave when they are supposed to be ignoring me, causing the Elemental to believe that I have attacked it (attacking cancels Retreat). More research is needed, and more documentation would be welcomed. At least it gives you something on which to use stamina points. If Sorcerers will rely more on DoT spells in the future, as has been proposed, then Sorcerers might find uses for it.

(4) Cunning Defense - If you get 5 ranks, it adds 10 to your DS. We're scraping the bottom of the barrel with this one.

A Sorcerer with 100 ranks of CM would have exactly the number of CMAN points needed to get rank 5 in all four of the above.

What am I missing? What about Dirt Kick, Feint and Trip? There are a few weapon using Sorcerers who might like Side by Side.

[Tgo01]

(2) Combat Movement - defends against all types of maneuvers.

(4) Cunning Defense - If you get 5 ranks, it adds 10 to your DS. We're scraping the bottom of the barrel with this one.

I think you have the names of these two switched around.


When you look up the meaning of "Disengaged" elsewhere in the same document, it is described as (I'm simplifying) having a 10% chance of being ignored by a like-level target. Based on my few tests, it seems to be 100%.

*The formula is written a bit clumsily but what it is saying is the target you are disengaged from has a 10% chance per level difference in target's favor of attacking you anyways. So if the enemy is your level or less then they can't attack you. If the enemy is higher level than you then they have a 10% chance per level difference to attack you, meaning once they are 10+ levels higher than you then disengaged is absolutely worthless.

Retreat sounds like it could be useful in certain situations, but the fact that it costs 30 stamina, only disengages from one enemy, and has a duration of 15 seconds at rank 5 (which is really only 12 seconds if you factor in the 3 second of hard RT you get from using Retreat) seems like it has really limited use.

I picked up Cunning Defense because it helps protect against all CMANs, Feint just so I can defend against feint easier (because it seems like a few critters use feint), and Side by Side because my sorc mostly hunts in a group so the Side by Side provides a DS boost for my sorc and a DS and AS boost for his group members.

*Reading the formula again is confusing me again.

Attacks have a ((attacker level - target level) * 10)% chance to bypass

That sounds like the "attacker" in this scenario is the enemy you are Disengaged from, so they have a ((their level - your level) * 10)% chance for their attack to bypass your disengage and hit you anyways, but elsewhere in the Disengage information it refers to the enemy you have disengaged from as the "target", so is this formula referring to YOUR chance to attack the enemy you retreated from?

[nindon]

You are correct that I had the names of combat movement and cunning defense reversed. I think you are also correct about the meaning of "bypass" in the Retreat formula.

What about these two lines from the description of Disengaged?
"Only ranged attacks, spells, or select maneuvers may be used against the target."
"Disengaged is removed if you attack the target you disengaged from."

I assume it means that you cannot swing a weapon at a critter while Retreating. While retreating, you can cast a spell or shoot an arrow, but if you do, the Retreat effect ends. If that is true, then Retreating locks you out of melee with that opponent for the full Retreat duration. I suppose a melee user could cast a spell at the target to end the Retreat early.

[Stolis]

I went with feint, because they like to do this in Nelemar a lot and so do bandits. Just figured defend against what you know and avoid some of the minor annoyances. Disarm, Cunning Defense I already had. The Combat Movement I did cause it was just free DS.

[nindon]

I know the wiki says Retreat should cost 30 stamina, but it's only costing me 10.

[Tgo01]

I know the wiki says Retreat should cost 30 stamina, but it's only costing me 10.

That makes it much more useful at least. 30 stamina is cray cray.

[rolfard]

With one hanging point leftover...

Skill Mnemonic Ranks Category Subcategory
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cunning Defense cdefense 5/5
Dirtkick dirtkick 4/5
Disarm Weapon disarm 4/5 Warrior Guild
Feint feint 4/5 Warrior Guild
Groin Kick gkick 4/5

[nindon]

Rolfard's plan is a smart and efficient use of points.

[nindon]

Some things I've figured out about Retreat:

(1) For the duration of the Retreat, neither you nor the target of the Retreat can attack the other in melee.

(2) During the Retreat, either you or the target can attack the other with spells or ranged weapons. That's why I thought it wasn't working on elementals, which use attack spells frequently. Don't bother using it on ranged attackers or primarily magic using attackers. According to the wiki, the following CMANs can also be used: Bull Rush, Dirtkick, Shield Throw, Shield Charge and Shield Trample.

(3) An attack by either you or the target immediately ends the Retreat. It doesn't make sense to me that using a ranged attack immediately eliminates the space between two foes.

(4) Casting area effect spells does not end the Retreat.

(5) It costs 10 stamina to use. The wiki says 30.

(6) You cannot refresh it on a target, but you can Retreat from the same target again after it wears off.

(7) The point cost/per rank from 1–5 is 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 for a cumulative 30 points at rank 5.

[rolfard]

Rolfard's plan is a smart and efficient use of points.

https://media.tenor.com/images/22fec76eca85a132849a59af728d6cc4/tenor.gif

[Goat]

Rank 5 of cdefense is +30 ranks of dodge. What is that, +2 to maneuver defense? 1.5?

[Idalias]

Does anyone know the answer to Goat’s question? I’ve asked in-game and haven’t gotten a response either. Trying to figure out at what point post cap a pure should be training CMANs for defensive purposes.

[Rinualdo]

It's a diminishing returns system, so there isn't a single answer

This is Naijin talking about pures with no existing dodge ranks and the 20 CMAN ranks in CDEF.


Naijin — 09/18/2021
So 20 cman ranks gives you 50 equivalent SMR defense ranks.

[Idalias]

Helpful, although I’m still not sure I understand what 50 equivalent SMR defense ranks would do to the CMAN rolls I face. Assuming I have exactly 20 CMAN ranks, is 50 of these worth like… 1 point on each roll? 5? 50? Ahhhhh, it’s all such a black box!

[Rinualdo]

It's 50 total- 20 from CMAN and 30 from CDEF.

[Idalias]

Got that. But let’s say the average shield bash has about a +40 difference between the D100 roll and the roll result. How much is that going to impact the roll result (roughly)? By 1pt, 5pts, 10pts, etc?

[nindon]

Some things I've figured out about Retreat:

(1) For the duration of the Retreat, neither you nor the target of the Retreat can attack the other in melee.

(2) During the Retreat, either you or the target can attack the other with spells or ranged weapons. That's why I thought it wasn't working on elementals, which use attack spells frequently. Don't bother using it on ranged attackers or primarily magic using attackers. According to the wiki, the following CMANs can also be used: Bull Rush, Dirtkick, Shield Throw, Shield Charge and Shield Trample.

(3) An attack by either you or the target immediately ends the Retreat. It doesn't make sense to me that using a ranged attack immediately eliminates the space between two foes.

(4) Casting area effect spells does not end the Retreat.

(5) It costs 10 stamina to use. The wiki says 30.

(6) You cannot refresh it on a target, but you can Retreat from the same target again after it wears off.

(7) The point cost/per rank from 1–5 is 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 for a cumulative 30 points at rank 5.



Retreat does not work at all anymore on any target. I would not recommend training in it. When it was first released, I used it a lot on Vvrael Destroyers. Now it doesn't work on anything. No matter what target you use it on, the target always immediately maneuvers closer to you, which is the signal that the retreat has ended.

>cman retreat daggerbeak
You withdraw, disengaging from a black-winged daggerbeak.
A black-winged daggerbeak maneuvers closer to you.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

[Maerit]

Retreat does not work at all anymore on any target. I would not recommend training in it. When it was first released, I used it a lot on Vvrael Destroyers. Now it doesn't work on anything. No matter what target you use it on, the target always immediately maneuvers closer to you, which is the signal that the retreat has ended.

>cman retreat daggerbeak
You withdraw, disengaging from a black-winged daggerbeak.
A black-winged daggerbeak maneuvers closer to you.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

Sounds like a bug that should be reported. But also Disengage seems incredibly weak since any target of higher level than yourself is going to have a high chance (10 levels higher is 100% chance) to end the disengage immediately.

[gilchristr]

Wow, so retreat is broken and nobody knows since nobody wants to spend RT retreating. Who would have thought?

[Goat]

I've found trip very helpful. It works pretty well, can trigger my pike's flares, and only has 2 set RT. Edit: I am 1x CM and +50 CM enhancements; I don't know if that matters.

And then I usually go on and poke the target in the head with a big stick, but even without that, having a prone target for only 2 sec RT still seems nice.