Postcap Training: Defensive Goals (PURE BARD)

[nocturnix]

Hi all. I'm kind of all over-the-place in my postcap training and have not really had much of a focus yet.

I started out getting a bit of ascension +AUR to work towards full CS cap (min/maxing player here). However, I realized I am still dying a fair amount (much more than my wizard).

SO I was wondering on suggestions of the best defensive skills to work towards capping, or like what a good amount/goal would be for certain defensive skills. Do I focus on maxing out my DS? Or do I focus on defending against maneuvers? Maybe there is a healthy middle ground to start working towards? I am a runestaff user (for style points mainly), so perhaps I should check out the DS formula for runestaves again and see if I am at max DS.

Armor Use..........................| 165 65
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 5 1
Physical Fitness...................| 200 100
Dodging............................| 166 66
Arcane Symbols.....................| 5 1
Magic Item Use.....................| 200 100
Harness Power......................| 200 100
Elemental Mana Control.............| 86 19
Mental Mana Control................| 200 100
Mental Lore - Manipulation.........| 175 75
Perception.........................| 200 100
Climbing...........................| 160 60
Swimming...........................| 170 70


Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 53


Spell Lists
Bard...............................| 121


Current skills. I wear aug chain and use a 6x nervestaff currently.

What skills should i focus on so i die less? Mostly get hit by maneuvers and can still get warded in nelemar. with self + spirit spells. random implosions get me alot, but then again, they get my wizard too who has insane self-spelled DS.

Cheers.

[Tgo01]

If you're dying to CMANs then you would want to get your Combat Maneuvers skill maxed out, or at least 1x it.

If you're dying to skills that fall under the SMR system (maneuvers that aren't listed under the CMAN skill system) then the most important skill you want is physical fitness so you should 2x in that.

If you're dying to maneuvers that use the new SMRv2 system then dodging, Combat Maneuvers, perception, and physical fitness all help by an equal amount so train in any of them.

I always max out physical fitness first because that helps the most with SMR attacks and helps equally for SMRv2 attacks, then I max out perception because it's generally a cheap skill to train in and helps out with SMR and SMRv2 attacks. As a bard you can 2x in physical fitness or perception cheaper than you can 1x in Combat Maneuvers.

But if standard CMANs are what is killing you (like shield bash) then 1x in Combat Maneuvers first and get 5 ranks in cunning defense to see if that helps. If they're still a problem then max out Combat Maneuvers. Also since you said you still get warded if you get some CMAN points you can also put 5 ranks into combat focus which would give you another +10 generic TD, not much but every bit helps, and it's passive just like cunning defense so you don't have to worry about using it to make sure it's active or anything.

[Tgo01]

Also I just realized you only have 569 magical ranks, typically you want at least 8 ranks * your level with 12 ranks being even better, so you should have between 800 and 1200 magical ranks if you're using a runestaff. More magical ranks will give you more DS and also allows you to parry attacks more which can be really handy for deflecting ranged attacks because I don't think normal weapons can parry ranged attacks.

But if you aren't typically dying to AS/DS based attacks you can probably put this training on hold for a while.

[dzulthu]

You only need 50 Armor ranks to train off the penalty for augmented chain. There's a benefit to effectively move one AsG down at each 50 rank break point after that (i.e., you'd want to go to 100 directly once you have the TPs for it).

Also, if you drop 20 bard songs and put it in MnE, you get +10 DS and +10 Elemental TD and also get a minor boost to your Bard CS (+0.83 per rank from the extra spell plus 425 bonus, vs losing -0.75 CS from the spell song drop).

[dzulthu]

The runestaff thing is also probably not going to work until you are 2x (maybe closer to 3x) cap. I'd drop MMC to 25, take EMC to 25, drop MIU, and sink the excess into 2x weapon and 1x shield. And then work on taking PF to 2x, shield to 2x, dodge to 1x, and perception to 2x, in some order.

[nocturnix]

All really good tips, now i have alot of thinking and decisions to do. I'd rather not drop the bard ranks due to the bonus to CS. So i might consider to pick up more MNE next, then PF and Percep. Have to consider the order in which I do this stuff.

Right now i feel a bit like a glass cannon, i hope with training I can feel a little tougher especially considering I am wearing heavier armor (10x aug HCP) than my wizard (9x fulls HCP). He feels like a damn tank.

[nocturnix]

10 TD does sound nice, but for how many TPs?

An ethereal triton sentry points an ethereal, clawed finger toward you!
CS: +436 - TD: +425 + CvA: -24 + d100: +99 - -5 == +91
Warded off!

(WITH blues)

[Tgo01]

10 TD does sound nice, but for how many TPs?

An ethereal triton sentry points an ethereal, clawed finger toward you!
CS: +436 - TD: +425 + CvA: -24 + d100: +99 - -5 == +91
Warded off!

(WITH blues)

Combat focus would take 45 CMAN points to get rank 5.

If you get another 24 ranks of MnE spells you could get an extra +12 DS and +12 Elemental TD/+6 Spirit TD, but that would take about twice as many training points to get compared to 45 ranks of CMAN.

[nocturnix]

Hmm. so cheapest route to TD is the cman. HOwever, i get DS with MnE...is that spell DS or runestaff magic ranks DS as well?

[Tgo01]

Hmm. so cheapest route to TD is the cman. HOwever, i get DS with MnE...is that spell DS or runestaff magic ranks DS as well?

That's just the bonus from 430, another 22 magical ranks wouldn't do much for runestaff DS but it would give some points.

Also 22 MnE ranks would max out 425 which would give you another 11 CS.

[nocturnix]

OK you had me at CS, thats my next target. 24 more ranks is where I should stop as well right?

[nocturnix]

Its a lot of TP but can't deny the defense + offensive benefits.

[Tgo01]

24 more ranks is where I should stop as well right?

125 bard/77 MnE or 127 bard/75 MnE would give the same max CS with 202 spell ranks.

The benefits from 425 caps out at 75 MnE and the benefits from 430 caps out at 100 MnE, so it just depends on where you want to put the last 2 spell ranks.

[Maerit]

Aim for 2x shield use / brawl, 50 dodge use a decently enchanted or sonic shield and enchanted or ebladed UCS gloves. My bard only dies to SMR spells these days. His DS prone prone is still in the 600s .

[nocturnix]

Aim for 2x shield use / brawl, 50 dodge use a decently enchanted or sonic shield and enchanted or ebladed UCS gloves. My bard only dies to SMR spells these days. His DS prone prone is still in the 600s .

Thanks, as mentioned though I prefer Runestaff for RP reasons. Is the defensive bonus with shield brawl massive compared to runestaff at capped out skills? Would love to keep my runestaff but if its that big of a difference I may have to consider it.

[Tgo01]

Is the defensive bonus with shield brawl massive compared to runestaff at capped out skills? Would love to keep my runestaff but if its that big of a difference I may have to consider it.

Depends what you mean by capped out skills. If you 1x in AS, MIU, EMC, MMC, Air Lore, and mental lores, and 2x in harness power and spells you would have about 211 DS from a 7x runestaff in guarded stance. You could squeeze out some more DS if you maxed out AS, MIU, and Spell Aiming, but that's a lot of points for not much return.

Right now you're at about 150 DS with a 7x runestaff in guarded stance.

If you 2x in brawling you would get about 190 DS in guarded stance. If you 2x in shield use and used a sonic tower shield (which is what you should be using if you max out air lore) that would be about another 220 DS in guarded. You could also use a real shield and get it T5 ensorcell for another 10 TD (well lowers your CvA by 10, same end result though), but then you would have to decide which shield size you want because larger shields affect your dodge DS, but if you're not gonna train in dodge then you should just use a tower shield anyways. Of course you're already using a runestaff so getting T5 on a shield would just put you where you already are right now since runestaves also get this TD/CvA bonus but regular weapons do not.

[elvenpaladin]

Wow. My bard is level 8 now and got so much DS with all the spells and stuff. Bards are so cool, my dad thinks they will be nerfed lol

[dzulthu]

I'd suggest hopping on the test instance and doing a trial hunt with a traditional shield/weapon build vs a runestaff build. Migration is near instant there.

[nocturnix]

I'd suggest hopping on the test instance and doing a trial hunt with a traditional shield/weapon build vs a runestaff build. Migration is near instant there.

Good tip!


Depends what you mean by capped out skills. If you 1x in AS, MIU, EMC, MMC, Air Lore, and mental lores, and 2x in harness power and spells you would have about 211 DS from a 7x runestaff in guarded stance. You could squeeze out some more DS if you maxed out AS, MIU, and Spell Aiming, but that's a lot of points for not much return.

Right now you're at about 150 DS with a 7x runestaff in guarded stance.

If you 2x in brawling you would get about 190 DS in guarded stance. If you 2x in shield use and used a sonic tower shield (which is what you should be using if you max out air lore) that would be about another 220 DS in guarded. You could also use a real shield and get it T5 ensorcell for another 10 TD (well lowers your CvA by 10, same end result though), but then you would have to decide which shield size you want because larger shields affect your dodge DS, but if you're not gonna train in dodge then you should just use a tower shield anyways. Of course you're already using a runestaff so getting T5 on a shield would just put you where you already are right now since runestaves also get this TD/CvA bonus but regular weapons do not.

Thanks alot for that breakdown. Are you saying total +DS in guarded for shield/brawl would be around 220 or 220+190? if maxish is 220 thats not so much over the 211 for runestaff. 9 DS give or take is not really worth the tradeoffs IMO.

[Tgo01]

Good tip!



Thanks alot for that breakdown. Are you saying total +DS in guarded for shield/brawl would be around 220 or 220+190? if maxish is 220 thats not so much over the 211 for runestaff. 9 DS give or take is not really worth the tradeoffs IMO.

190 is just from brawling and 220 is from shield use, so a total of around 410. Keep in mind that's guarded though so if your stance is pushed down your DS from shield use would drop to about 140 in offensive stance.

[Maerit]

Thanks, as mentioned though I prefer Runestaff for RP reasons. Is the defensive bonus with shield brawl massive compared to runestaff at capped out skills? Would love to keep my runestaff but if its that big of a difference I may have to consider it.

1. No disarm to worry about (though sonic RS is also immune, but not immune to SoS snake maneuver)
2. Shields do help vs specific physical maneuvers and SMR defense
3. You can block more attacks with a shield than with a rune staff
4. Better DS in general all around for 1/4 the TPs since you will never have the lore, spell ranks, or mana controls of a pure.
5. You gain offense options vs magic immune targets (UCS them)

Sonic runestaves are awesome, you can still use one with a shield too, but at some DS loss.

[nocturnix]

That is indeed alot of benefits but my character is pure for RP reasons mostly. So don't want to go down physical path too much. It might be a reasonable post-cap target though to see if i can keep my CS maxed and still do shield+brawl enough to get the defens.

[Fortybox]

Hi all. I'm kind of all over-the-place in my postcap training and have not really had much of a focus yet.

I started out getting a bit of ascension +AUR to work towards full CS cap (min/maxing player here). However, I realized I am still dying a fair amount (much more than my wizard).

SO I was wondering on suggestions of the best defensive skills to work towards capping, or like what a good amount/goal would be for certain defensive skills. Do I focus on maxing out my DS? Or do I focus on defending against maneuvers? Maybe there is a healthy middle ground to start working towards? I am a runestaff user (for style points mainly), so perhaps I should check out the DS formula for runestaves again and see if I am at max DS.

Armor Use..........................| 165 65
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 5 1
Physical Fitness...................| 200 100
Dodging............................| 166 66
Arcane Symbols.....................| 5 1
Magic Item Use.....................| 200 100
Harness Power......................| 200 100
Elemental Mana Control.............| 86 19
Mental Mana Control................| 200 100
Mental Lore - Manipulation.........| 175 75
Perception.........................| 200 100
Climbing...........................| 160 60
Swimming...........................| 170 70


Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 53


Spell Lists
Bard...............................| 121


Current skills. I wear aug chain and use a 6x nervestaff currently.

What skills should i focus on so i die less? Mostly get hit by maneuvers and can still get warded in nelemar. with self + spirit spells. random implosions get me alot, but then again, they get my wizard too who has insane self-spelled DS.

Cheers.

Get rid of the dodge and do shield use.

You don't need all that mental mana control or magic use skills. Here's my 9m pure bard for reference:

Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 160 60
Shield Use.........................| 302 202
Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Harness Power......................| 201 101
Elemental Lore - Air...............| 175 75
Mental Lore - Manipulation.........| 175 75
Mental Lore - Telepathy............| 108 26
Perception.........................| 201 101
Climbing...........................| 150 50
Swimming...........................| 201 101

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 75

Spell Lists
Bard...............................| 117

[vantho]

You can go open hand brawl with a neat sonic shield alter to keep more of a magical / pure vibe if you don't want to be be lugging around the sword and board, unless it's the runestaff specifically that was the draw.

Keeping 121 bard ranks is nice, but honestly it's a bit of a luxury. You could drop those back a bit and still rank 3 crit every time you hit with 1030. Build up some defensive skills and then bring bard ranks back up a little later.

[nocturnix]

Yeah, i'm a sucker for maxing my CS have near max Aura, just missing some more ascension.

The staff look is the draw for me, if only i could alter my sonic shield into a staff ;-)