Official: Enhancive Changes

[bunnymustdie]

(This message is also available as a Google Document at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D9pIV2K-elAv1TUMurqUdqTRjyjcnTxxoMSt7xgHTBA )

DISCLAIMER: This is just a design proposal. Any or all changes referenced in this post can and are likely to change as the mechanics are implemented and tested. Do not make any drastic decisions (such as training choices or purchases at events) for your characters based upon what is listed in this proposal. You will not be compensated or refunded for any adjustments made to this design after the fact.

We are considering simplifying enhancive items to convert Stat Bonus boosts to be Stat Base instead, and Skill Bonus boosts to be Skill Ranks instead.

Thus, an item with these enhancements:
It provides a boost of 2 to Strength Bonus.
It provides a boost of 3 to Two-Handed Weapons Bonus.

Will be converted to have these enhancements:
It provides a boost of 4 to Strength.
It provides a boost of 3 to Two-Handed Weapons Ranks.

Our goal is to condense the system and make it easier to understand, reducing confusion. These changes would retroactively apply to all existing enhancive items as well as newly created items going forward.

The development team is interested in comments, concerns, and other feedback you may have regarding this change. Here’s a few things we’ve already noted, and how we plan to address them:

RECHARGING COSTS:

This change will affect the cost per charge of enhancive items that currently provide boosts to Stat Bonuses. In the majority of cases this change will be negligible; in many cases the converted items will cost less per charge than they do now. In some relatively extreme examples, the cost may increase. A hypothetical 20 Strength Base enhancive currently costs about 11% more per charge than an equivalent 10 Strength Bonus enhancive.

Skill Ranks will be adjusted to use the same costs Skill Bonuses previously did, resulting in a reduction of those recharge costs by around 90%.

ADVENTURER’S GUILD BADGES:

Enhancive costs also factor into how strong of enhancives can be applied to your Adventurer’s Guild Badge. Since our proposed changes may make these items slightly more expensive in some cases, it’s possible (though very unlikely) you may be unable to enhance an adventurer’s guild to match the enhancements it currently has.

Your existing adventurer guild badges will continue to function, even if they are stronger than the new math says they are supposed to be.

FUSION ARMOR

Fusion armor currently limits you to one orb per type, but it has previously been possible to combine e.g. both a Strength Bonus orb and a Strength Base orb together.

To allow these setups to continue to be possible, fusion armor will be changed to allow a limit of two orbs of the same type in the cases of stats and skills.

Existing fusion orbs will also be converted to the new system. To avoid making them hard to tell apart, their appearance will not be changing. If you are remembering which orb is Strength Bonus and which is Dexterity Base by their color, you will continue to be able to do so.

Original here: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Combat,%20Magic,%20and%20Character%20Mechanics/Developer's%20Corner/thread/1939777?get_newest=true

[Tgo01]

Sounds good. Do it!

[gilchristr]

Do it, do it n-owe!

[SonoftheNorth]

Existing fusion orbs will also be converted to the new system.

Wait wut

[Realk]

Wait wut

as if fusion didnt wasnt already 5 ft under, it's buried now.

[gilchristr]

"Existing fusion orbs will also be converted to the new system."

Amigous. It could mean all t3 fusion orbs will become t2s. But it could also mean that the +5 strength bonus t3 fusion orb will be converted to "the new system", i.e. become a +10 strength stat t3 fusion orb.

Its pretty much like every mercchant sign ever. It requires follow up questions, and then they are like "read the sign" when the same follow up question is asked a dozen times

PS - in terms of how amigous and badly thought out the comments are, consider the comment is under the heading FUSION ARMOR. Wait what about fusion weapons??? That is why we have the term "Armaments"... so for starters the comment should be under the heading FUSION ARMAMENTS, which includes both armor and weapons. Why would the comments apply to fusion armor only? Really they should read the message a few times before they publish it, which clearly they don't do.

The comment "converted to the new system" could mean anything, and i'd be surprised if it meant t3 -> t2 conversion (although I agree it reads that way...) I would just let it play out with several people getting blue in the face on the officials - it will get clarified.

[khorpulent]

Ahh, I knew there was a nerf in here somewhere:

Enhancive costs also factor into how strong of enhancives can be applied to your Adventurer’s Guild Badge. Since our proposed changes may make these items slightly more expensive in some cases, it’s possible (though very unlikely) you may be unable to enhance an adventurer’s guild to match the enhancements it currently has.

Right now you can max it out with +10 to skill bonuses, but it won't allow anywhere near that in ranks. My current badge setup would definitely be impossible:

It provides a boost of 10 to Stamina Recovery.
It provides a boost of 10 to Mental Lore - Telepathy Bonus.
It provides a boost of 10 to Ranged Weapons Bonus.


When I made it, I originally tried to add transformation lore ranks, but I could only get like +4 ranks with a max upgraded badge. Bet you can't get anywhere near a badge like this once it's all ranks.

[Skeletor]

Ahh, I knew there was a nerf in here somewhere:

Enhancive costs also factor into how strong of enhancives can be applied to your Adventurer’s Guild Badge. Since our proposed changes may make these items slightly more expensive in some cases, it’s possible (though very unlikely) you may be unable to enhance an adventurer’s guild to match the enhancements it currently has.

Right now you can max it out with +10 to skill bonuses, but it won't allow anywhere near that in ranks. My current badge setup would definitely be impossible:

It provides a boost of 10 to Stamina Recovery.
It provides a boost of 10 to Mental Lore - Telepathy Bonus.
It provides a boost of 10 to Ranged Weapons Bonus.


When I made it, I originally tried to add transformation lore ranks, but I could only get like +4 ranks with a max upgraded badge. Bet you can't get anywhere near a badge like this once it's all ranks.

What about stats and bonuses? has that changed?

[rolfard]

NEVERMIND, I just read this in the googledoc
***Skill Ranks will be adjusted to use the same costs Skill Bonuses previously did, resulting in a reduction of those recharge costs by around 90%.***

x-posted this in officials
I went to the TEST realm and checked out a couple things and realized that while STATS are nearly the same going from bonus to base, a +5 bonus AURA/WIS/DEX badge may not be made using the +10 model. If the costs to stat base was made equal to the equivalent stat bonus, that could be solved.

Then I started looking at my square. Then things got bad. You can make a +10 MOC/CMan/Dodge bonus badge. Using the rank system, none of those can go above 5 and forget about combining them. This <<below>> is going out of style and may be the 'best' badge I can give my wizard who has 0 ranks of all of these skills. I just hesitate to see what the recharge cost will be when it's all ranks based...

It provides a boost of 10 to Combat Maneuvers Bonus.
It provides a boost of 10 to Multi Opponent Combat Bonus.
It provides a boost of 10 to Dodging Bonus.
This enhancive item has restrictions whose type are unclear to you.
The badge seems to be out of charges.
It will persist after its last enhancive charge has been expended.
It is a small item, under a pound.

>order 5
Edrelsk takes your badge and peers at it through a large green crystal lens. He hands it back, saying, "I can charge this up a bit. It'll cost 52800 of your bounty points, though."

[khorpulent]

Yep, it's a great big badge nerf. Oh, I mean "simplification".

[drumpel]

Yep, it's a great big badge nerf. Oh, I mean "simplification".

Speaking of nerf, hasn't anyone noticed the bonus cap they snuck in for SMR rolls? I've seen it while using 917.

The bonuses are there, but there is a cap on how high the bonus can end up at.

What is the same:
Prone = 20
Stunned = 35
Prone + Stunned = 55
Immobilized = 100 (does not stack with any other bonus)

Wounds and loss of health have various bonuses and these would stack upon any Prone and/or Stunned status and there didn't appear to be any ceiling in the past. I've had a bonus of 100+ at times.

Sometime in the past few months a cap as put in place on wounds/health loss. This cap is now 25. These values may have changed based on what I found 18+ months ago from testing, but I haven't done any testing since this nerf cap was put in place.

A creature that doesn't stun, but can be knocked prone has a capped bonus of up to 45 (20 for prone status and up to 25 for wound/health loss).
A creature that can stun and be knocked prone has a capped bonus of 80 (20 for prone status, 35 for stun and up to 25 for wound/health loss).
A creature that can't be stunned or knocked prone has a capped bonus of 25 (up to 25 for wound/health loss).

In the past, I'm not sure if there was a cap on the wounds/health loss bonus because on creatures stunned/prone and missing limbs and lots of health I've had the bonus on a 917 SMR roll in the low 100s before.

It's slightly more difficult (I'd say upwards of 10%) to land kills on the first cast of 917 for my capped and now almost capped second wizard when hunting in the past couple months due to lower rolls from the capped nerf bonus.



I guess I can say at least they're making us aware of the almost not a nerf going on here that'll hit the adventure guild badges.....

[Skeletor]

https://i.imgflip.com/5aa7qe.gif

[rushblitz]

I wonder if this would mean ascension points in skills would also then be ranks?

[Methais]

Yep, it's a great big badge nerf. Oh, I mean "simplification".

No need to worry, the Simu sycophants who struggle with basic addition and subtraction will love it and think it's a buff.

[drumpel]

https://i.imgflip.com/5aa7qe.gif

I asked on the forums a few days ago about the nerf to the SMR bonus, but I haven't heard anything yet.....

Figure I won't hear anything because they rarely comment on stealth nerfs unless you make a ruckus on discord - even then with how you have log into discord with your character name, I don't want them associating me with my character or the account I use on the forums so I don't visit discord (not that I really used it in the past).

So, yes, keep an eye out on stealth nerfs. I'm sure there will be plenty more to come throughout the days of getting the PSM crap done and ascension stuff done.

[bunnymustdie]

Speaking of nerf, hasn't anyone noticed the bonus cap they snuck in for SMR rolls? I've seen it while using 917.

The bonuses are there, but there is a cap on how high the bonus can end up at.

What is the same:
Prone = 20
Stunned = 35
Prone + Stunned = 55
Immobilized = 100 (does not stack with any other bonus)

Wounds and loss of health have various bonuses and these would stack upon any Prone and/or Stunned status and there didn't appear to be any ceiling in the past. I've had a bonus of 100+ at times.

Sometime in the past few months a cap as put in place on wounds/health loss. This cap is now 25. These values may have changed based on what I found 18+ months ago from testing, but I haven't done any testing since this nerf cap was put in place.

A creature that doesn't stun, but can be knocked prone has a capped bonus of up to 45 (20 for prone status and up to 25 for wound/health loss).
A creature that can stun and be knocked prone has a capped bonus of 80 (20 for prone status, 35 for stun and up to 25 for wound/health loss).
A creature that can't be stunned or knocked prone has a capped bonus of 25 (up to 25 for wound/health loss).

In the past, I'm not sure if there was a cap on the wounds/health loss bonus because on creatures stunned/prone and missing limbs and lots of health I've had the bonus on a 917 SMR roll in the low 100s before.

It's slightly more difficult (I'd say upwards of 10%) to land kills on the first cast of 917 for my capped and now almost capped second wizard when hunting in the past couple months due to lower rolls from the capped nerf bonus.



I guess I can say at least they're making us aware of the almost not a nerf going on here that'll hit the adventure guild badges.....

I think there is something buggy going on here.

I looked through my wizard's logs. The last time I had a bonus of 80+ on 917 was back around 12/26/20. As of after 1/1/21 (which coincides around the time of the release of the much beloved PSM 2 update), the higher 80+ bonus values has disappeared, and the bonus of 80 started showing up very frequently in the logs as it basically took the place of previously higher values. I stopped hunting my wizard account around the middle/end of March, so my data's only up to that point.

For comparison I also looked through my paladin's logs. I've been getting normal 80+ bonus values on stuff like feint or charge perfectly fine even as of last week. This cap of 80 on the bonus is not a blanket cap that affects all SMRv2 stuff, but seems to be specific only for 917.

I looked through my empath's logs for for SMRv2 stuff for kicks, and found the following from 5/15/21, during the story event with that manticore:



Ordim gestures at a titanic winged manticore.
The ground beneath a titanic winged manticore rumbles with renewed vigor!
The earth cracks beneath a titanic winged manticore, releasing a column of frigid air!
[SMR result: 205 (Open d100: 47, Bonus: 121)]
... 50 points of damage!


Alastir gestures at a titanic winged manticore.
The ground beneath a titanic winged manticore boils with renewed vigor!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground beneath a titanic winged manticore!
[SMR result: 208 (Open d100: 47, Bonus: 119)]
... 55 points of damage!

That manticore was a event critter and probably had all sorts of negative effects and wounds on it, but nonetheless there were multiple 917 hits with bonuses of 80+ from 917 during that event.

The 80 bonus cap on 917 definitely existed based on my own wizard's logs. I don't know if it affects only certain characters or if it's a bug they managed to fix recently. Giving this further thought, the manticore was a special event creature, it may very well have been made with different rules so I don't know how relevant the two above logs from 5/15/21 are.

Are you still seeing that 80 cap as of now? If you still see it as of today it probably is a bug or stealth nerf of some sort. I cancelled my wizard account a while ago so I can't quite test this on my end.

[drumpel]

I think there is something buggy going on here.

I looked through my wizard's logs. The last time I had a bonus of 80+ on 917 was back around 12/26/20. As of after 1/1/21 (which coincidences around the time of the release of the much beloved PSM 2 update), the higher 80+ bonus values has disappeared, and the bonus of 80 started showing up very frequently in the logs as it basically took the place of previously higher values. I stopped hunting my wizard account around the middle/end of March, so my data's only up to that point.

For comparison I also looked through my paladin's logs. I've been getting normal 80+ bonus values on stuff like feint or charge perfectly fine even as of last week. This cap of 80 on the bonus is not a blanket cap that affects all SMRv2 stuff, but seems to be specific only for 917.

I looked through my empath's logs for for SMRv2 stuff for kicks, and found the following from 5/15/21, during the story event with that manticore:






That manticore was a event critter and probably had all sorts of negative effects and wounds on it, but nonetheless there were multiple 917 hits with bonuses of 80+ from 917 during that event.

The 80 bonus cap definitely existed based on my own wizard's logs. I don't know if it affects only certain characters or if it's a bug they managed to fix recently. Are you still seeing that 80 cap as of now? I cancelled my wizard account a while ago so I can't quite test this on my end.



The 80 cap was still there as of yesterday afternoon. I capped the weekly essence for my wizards this week so I'm not out hunting them anymore until Monday. My hunts consisted of 2 hunting locations where I saw the same results.

The capped wizard hunts in Nelemar.
The level 98 wizard was at OTF at the start of the week (before he hit level 98) and he was getting the 80 cap bonus in OTF and got the same 80 cap bonus in Nelemar.
Both wizards experienced the capped 80 or 45 bonuses on all creatures (except for griffins, since 917 doesn't hit them) in both hunting grounds.

I'm too lazy to run them back out to Nelemar to test right now. Maybe someone else can chime in if they have a wizard in one of these areas to let us know what the bonus values right when using 917.

[bunnymustdie]

The 80 cap was still there as of yesterday afternoon. I capped the weekly essence for my wizards this week so I'm not out hunting them anymore until Monday. My hunts consisted of 2 hunting locations where I saw the same results.

The capped wizard hunts in Nelemar.
The level 98 wizard was at OTF at the start of the week (before he hit level 98) and he was getting the 80 cap bonus in OTF and got the same 80 cap bonus in Nelemar.
Both wizards experienced the capped 80 or 45 bonuses on all creatures (except for griffins, since 917 doesn't hit them) in both hunting grounds.

I'm too lazy to run them back out to Nelemar to test right now. Maybe someone else can chime in if they have a wizard in one of these areas to let us know what the bonus values right when using 917.

Thanks for clarifying. I think there is definitely something wonky going on, then. If anyone else want to research into this, you can use Notepad++ to search through large amounts of text file logs at once. Just have the program do a search for something like "SMR result" in the folder the logs are located. Takes like a minute to do and a lot more realistic than to manually look through each text log on your own.

[Methais]

I asked on the forums a few days ago about the nerf to the SMR bonus, but I haven't heard anything yet.....

Figure I won't hear anything because they rarely comment on stealth nerfs unless you make a ruckus on discord - even then with how you have log into discord with your character name, I don't want them associating me with my character or the account I use on the forums so I don't visit discord (not that I really used it in the past).

So, yes, keep an eye out on stealth nerfs. I'm sure there will be plenty more to come throughout the days of getting the PSM crap done and ascension stuff done.

It would be nice if Wyrom just put a blanket ban on stealth nerfs and require actual changelogs like pretty much every other game on the planet does.

Stealth nerf just means "I know this change I'm implementing is a steaming pile of shit, but I'm doing it anyway and hopefully no one will notice."

[khorpulent]

It would be nice if Wyrom just put a blanket ban on stealth nerfs and require actual changelogs like pretty much every other game on the planet does.

Stealth nerf just means "I know this change I'm implementing is a steaming pile of shit, but I'm doing it anyway and hopefully no one will notice."

Yeah, the least they can do is announce it and pretend that it's a buff and/or QOL update.

[Stanley Burrell]

Yeah, the least they can do is announce it and pretend that it's a buff and/or QOL update.

It seems a little QOL'y on the ranks vs. bonus for skills, or at least as simple as it should actually be. Glad I have good friend who at least perma-unlocked all my d00dz' badges just in case shit goes sideways and maybe will make it simpler for me to understand it.

[Methais]

Yeah, the least they can do is announce it and pretend that it's a buff and/or QOL update.

They seem to legitimately believe that posting in Discord at 3:17am counts as an announcement.

[drumpel]

I think there is something buggy going on here.

The 80 bonus cap on 917 definitely existed based on my own wizard's logs. I don't know if it affects only certain characters or if it's a bug they managed to fix recently. Giving this further thought, the manticore was a special event creature, it may very well have been made with different rules so I don't know how relevant the two above logs from 5/15/21 are.

Are you still seeing that 80 cap as of now? If you still see it as of today it probably is a bug or stealth nerf of some sort. I cancelled my wizard account a while ago so I can't quite test this on my end.

Back out hunting in Nelemar, the hard cap on the wounds/health is still there.

Prone without stun + max wound/health bonus caps at 45.
Prone with stun + max wound/health bonus caps at 80.

Here's an example of capping at 45 since triton radicals cannot be stunned:


>incant 410
You trace a simple rune while intoning the mystical phrase for Elemental Wave...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton radical.
A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from you.
A triton radical is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)

>incant 917 fire
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Earthen Fury...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton radical.
The ground beneath a triton radical begins to boil violently!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground beneath a triton radical!
[SMR result: 158 (Open d100: 73, Bonus: 20)]
... 40 points of damage!
Left leg burned off at the knee. Ouch.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
Fiery debris explodes from the ground beneath a triton radical!
[SMR result: 197 (Open d100: 67, Bonus: 42)]
... 45 points of damage!
Right leg aflame. When the smoke clears, there's nothing left.
>
Craggy debris explodes from the ground beneath a triton radical!
[SMR result: 225 (Open d100: 92, Bonus: 45)]
... 50 points of damage!
Every bone in the left arm shattered and scattered about!
>l rad

You see a fairly typical triton radical that is lying down.
She has a completely severed left arm, a completely severed right leg and a completely severed left leg.
She has a corroded bronze scaling fork.
>
Craggy debris explodes from the ground beneath a triton radical!
[SMR result: 201 (Open d100: 69, Bonus: 45)]
... 30 points of damage!
Hard strike to right eye pops it!
>l rad

You see a fairly typical triton radical that is lying down.
She has a completely severed left arm, a completely severed right leg, a completely severed left leg and a blinded right eye.
She has a corroded bronze scaling fork.
>
A triton radical steeples her clawed fingers together, murmuring a quick incantation.
>
Fiery debris explodes from the ground beneath a triton radical!
[SMR result: 193 (Open d100: 57, Bonus: 45)]
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty burns to abdomen, a triton radical shrieks in pain!
>l rad

You see a fairly typical triton radical that is lying down.
She has a completely severed left arm, a completely severed right leg, a completely severed left leg, deep lacerations across her abdomen and a blinded right eye.
She has a corroded bronze scaling fork.
>
Fiery debris explodes from the ground beneath a triton radical!
[SMR result: 226 (Open d100: 90, Bonus: 45)]
... 40 points of damage!
Flame engulfs foe's left eye, setting it ablaze. Mercifully, death follows quickly.
The triton radical gurgles once and goes still, a wrathful look on her face.
The dully illuminated mantle protecting a triton radical begins to falter, then completely fades away.
A white glow rushes away from a triton radical.
The dull golden nimbus fades from around a triton radical.
The brilliant aura fades away from a triton radical.
The very powerful look leaves a triton radical.
The white light leaves a triton radical.
The guiding force leaves a triton radical.
The ground beneath a triton radical suddenly calms.


I've asked twice on the officials now if it's a bug or new feature and I've had no response.

Whether it's a bug or a new feature, it would be nice if they just came out to say it was one or the other.

[bunnymustdie]

Back out hunting in Nelemar, the hard cap on the wounds/health is still there.



Definitely an ongoing issue, then. If it goes on for a long time without any responses or fixes from them, it'd probably be more likely to be a stealth nerf than a bug.

[drumpel]

Definitely an ongoing issue, then. If it goes on for a long time without any responses or fixes from them, it'd probably be more likely to be a stealth nerf than a bug.

Finally got an answer from Estild on the officials:

"It's an intended change that was implemented 6 months ago when we were evaluating some SRMv2 result outliers."

If they wanted to make a change, we can't stop them, but it sure as hell would have been nice if they made mention that they were adjusting down the total bonus impact of SMRv2 rolls so players would have known.

Overall this means the hunting power of my wizard that relies on solely using 917/502 and sometimes 519 that his hunting prowess has been diminished some. This "wannbe stealth" nerf may not necessarily be a nerf to everyone, but to my 917 casting wizard feels the minor nerf of this change. It's not huge, but big enough to be noticeable for him.

My other capped mage he can toss out 917 and bolts, so it doesn't really change things for him. I think for him it's around 70% bolts and 30% 917. Squishy gets 917, not so squishy gets bolts. So he doesn't feel the change so much as my non-bolting mage does.

[bunnymustdie]

Finally got an answer from Estild on the officials:

"It's an intended change that was implemented 6 months ago when we were evaluating some SRMv2 result outliers."

If they wanted to make a change, we can't stop them, but it sure as hell would have been nice if they made mention that they were adjusting down the total bonus impact of SMRv2 rolls so players would have known.

Dang, stealth nerf confirmed.

[Methais]

Finally got an answer from Estild on the officials:

"It's an intended change that was implemented 6 months ago when we were evaluating some SRMv2 result outliers."

If they wanted to make a change, we can't stop them, but it sure as hell would have been nice if they made mention that they were adjusting down the total bonus impact of SMRv2 rolls so players would have known.

Overall this means the hunting power of my wizard that relies on solely using 917/502 and sometimes 519 that his hunting prowess has been diminished some. This "wannbe stealth" nerf may not necessarily be a nerf to everyone, but to my 917 casting wizard feels the minor nerf of this change. It's not huge, but big enough to be noticeable for him.

My other capped mage he can toss out 917 and bolts, so it doesn't really change things for him. I think for him it's around 70% bolts and 30% 917. Squishy gets 917, not so squishy gets bolts. So he doesn't feel the change so much as my non-bolting mage does.

You should raise hell about this to Wyrom or feedback or something. This stealth nerf shit is beyond fucking retarded, which is what a good chunk dev seems to consist of.

[drumpel]

You should raise hell about this to Wyrom or feedback or something. This stealth nerf shit is beyond fucking retarded, which is what a good chunk dev seems to consist of.

No one in charge will give a shit. It won't be reversed.

It's just another small change they put in place for all the stupid PSM3 (wannabe WarCraft) changes coming through to further nerf how some combat is handled. Pull everyone back to being slow instead of fixing the classes that are slow to be more in line with the classes that kill faster.

If most creatures dies with 1 cast of 917 (we'll say 85%), the change hasn't impacted most players since very few (my guess) are simply running around and only using 917 to kill. Most wizards use a combination of 917, bolts and some CS spells for killing. My mage that can't bolt, he now has about a 75% single 917 cast kill ratio now. My bolting mage is still as effective as he was before with his arsenal of 917/bolts/CS spells.

Most folks that play probably haven't even noticed since most probably don't just rely on 917 as their main killing spell. They cast 917 and if it doesn't die, toss a bolt spell or two and move along. I bet that most people never even noticed the bonus cap was put in place nor could even recall how high the bonus aspect of the spell even got to before.