crit weighting on UAC

[gilchristr]

Crit weighting for UAC cannot possibly work like it does for melee/ranged, because crit rank in UAC is determined from an endroll not from raw damage (like melee).

I was thinking it might work by adding to the endroll, instead of damage. So with UAC, on a 110 endroll, 10CER crit weighting might determined the crit table *as if* the endroll were 120. I guess this would be somewhat similar to how channel bonuses work for CS.

The other possibility is that crit weighting is just bugged for UAC and doesnt work at all. I think this is a real possibility. Damage weighting adds to raw damage. If crit weighting does the same thing, I think nothing would happen because I think the crit table is determined from endroll.

Has anyone tested crit weighting on UAC?

[Shaps]

Wouldn't the weighting just be applied after the initial endroll resolution?

ie. Roll a 145 - computes as 25 damage - resulting in a rank 3 .... then add in 10 CER crit weighting which results in a rank 5 wound, but not extra HP loss? (all numbers made up for the example)

Or am I totally off on that being a possibility?

[rolfard]

Crit weighting on ucs is capped by your positioning. For example, it doesn't matter how much crit weighting you have, you cannot attain a death crit on a decent positioning due to the cap.

[Viekn]

Wiki says crit weighting affects the rank within the positioning you have on the critter, but will not push the positioning to the next highest tier of position.

Tier 1 Decent (Rank 1-5 crits), Tier 2 Good (rank 4-8 crits), and Tier 3 Excellent (rank 7-11 crits) being the positions. So for decent position, crit weighting can push the rank from a 1 up to a 5 within the decent positioning, but it can't push you beyond your existing Tier 1 decent position, and so forth within the rest of the tiers.. It just pushes you within the range of the position.

[Skeletor]

Is there a theoretical max one should add for crit weighting on UAC then?

Also, does the crit weighting start from the base number in the particular category's range AKA starts at 4 for good positioning? or is it always calculated from 1?

[gilchristr]

"Unlike the AS/DS combat system which uses a relatively simple method for determining the possible critical rank outcomes, UCS is more complex and less understood. What is known is that both endroll and positioning are the major factors. In addition to these two factors, the critical rank outcome is also affected by the defender's armor, critical weighting/padding, crit rank randomization (see randomization note below)."

Nowhere does this say that raw damage is a factor at all, in computing crit rank. If that is correct, crit weighting in UAC cannot modify raw damage (like it does in melee)

[Viekn]

"Unlike the AS/DS combat system which uses a relatively simple method for determining the possible critical rank outcomes, UCS is more complex and less understood. What is known is that both endroll and positioning are the major factors. In addition to these two factors, the critical rank outcome is also affected by the defender's armor, critical weighting/padding, crit rank randomization (see randomization note below)."

Nowhere does this say that raw damage is a factor at all, in computing crit rank. If that is correct, crit weighting in UAC cannot modify raw damage (like it does in melee)

I'm not an expert but that sounds correct. UAC crit weighting isn't modifying raw damage, it's simply pushing the crit rank higher within the spread for the given positioning. But what is it exactly you're trying to figure out by doing this?

[gilchristr]

I just wanted to see if anyone else knew more about how crit rank is determined in UAC, and how crit weighting affects that ... thought someone might know from discord secrets or testing or Mark-genious or a GM-rage-quite-post or something.

My guess is that crit weighting adds to the effective endroll margin like channel adds to the effective warding margin. On a 1 for 1 basis. So an endroll of 145 on UAC, with 10 CER, would have crit rank determined as-if it were a 155 endroll.

[Riltus]

Crit weighting for UAC cannot possibly work like it does for melee/ranged, because crit rank in UAC is determined from an endroll not from raw damage (like melee).

I was thinking it might work by adding to the endroll, instead of damage. So with UAC, on a 110 endroll, 10CER crit weighting might determined the crit table *as if* the endroll were 120. I guess this would be somewhat similar to how channel bonuses work for CS.

The other possibility is that crit weighting is just bugged for UAC and doesnt work at all. I think this is a real possibility. Damage weighting adds to raw damage. If crit weighting does the same thing, I think nothing would happen because I think the crit table is determined from endroll.

Has anyone tested crit weighting on UAC?

Crit weighting is active in UAC although it isn't always obvious because of crit randomization and armor. You're correct that UAC critical ranks are associated with endrolls and not damage. Also armor plays an important factor in determining crit rank outcomes. In melee combat the crit rank/armor relationship is based on total damage where the crit divisors increase with higher armor groups. In UAC the endroll modified by the armor group determines the critical rank outcome. You need a significantly higher endroll vs a target in plate than cloth to obtain the same critical rank.

The table below gives the minimum ERs required to inflict a critical and activate weighting for each armor group. Endrolls less than these thresholds result in Rank 0 criticals regardless of the attacker's positioning (decent, good, excellent) or the attack type (jab, grapple, punch, kick). I don't know whether or not critical weighting increases ERs 1:1 but that would be my guess.


Armor Group|Min R1 Critical ER
Cloth|112
Leather|115
Scale|118
Chain|121
Plate|124

EXAMPLEs:

You have good positioning against a direbear.
UAF: 398 vs UDF: 335 = 1.188 * MM: 85 + d100: 20 = 120
... and hit for 1 point of damage!
Weak jab to chest doesn't faze him.
Crit rank: 0 w/120 ER vs natural chain equivalent armor

Another benefit of weighting, that is often overlooked, is the increased probability of a Tier-up because the phantom endrolls from weighting are added as part of the total endroll. The higher the endroll the greater the chance for a Tier-up (according to Finros).

Each of the four UAC critical tables can be divided into three sub-tables with each sub-table having a Rank 0 and 5 critical ranks. So why the sub-tables? For example (these are not exact numbers), the average Tier I (decent) result with a 150 endroll vs cloth armor is a Rank 3. The same hierarchy is used for the other tiers. That same 150 ER will, on average, inflict the third critical in Tier II (R6) and the third critical in Tier III (R9) when having excellent positioning.


Hierarchy|Tier I (Decent)|Tier II (Good)|Tier III (Excellent)
0|Rank 0|Rank 0|Rank 0
1| Rank 1|Rank 4|Rank 7
2|Rank 2|Rank 5|Rank 8
3| Rank 3|Rank 6|Rank 9
4| Rank 4|Rank 7|Rank 10
5|Rank 5|Rank 8|Rank 11

The benefits of weighting are limited. It can't raise a Rank 0 crit to a Rank 1 and it can't increase the attack Tier (decent -->good -->excellent). Second, it can only raise 4 critical ranks within each tier to a higher crit rank. Third, crit randomization significantly diminishes its effectiveness. Fourth, its effectiveness diminishes with higher armor groups because of the larger endroll spread required for each critical rank.

[Viekn]

There is also this note from Wiki as well regarding UCS crit randomization:


Note: UCS critical randomization is not the same as AS/DS randomization. With sufficiently high endrolls and/or critical weighting, the critical rank outcome will be very heavily weighted toward the maximum rank.

I for one only have weighting on my boots and currently only 5 CER (the Dark and Dangerous kind). With kick being one of the least used of the 4 possible UCS tactics (unless you're a warmage that spam kicks), I didn't think the randomization of flares outweighed the randomization and potential upside of critical weighting on my boots, so I went that route.

[rolfard]

If anyone is going to run numbers in the test instance, I'd be happy to lend my 20 cer crit handwraps. These were made before any indication of a cap was provided, but I feel they make a significant impact vs bandits in plate.

[gilchristr]

Mark thanks for the information, that is great.

Do you have any thoughts on whether dex adds "crit weighting" on UAC? Without having done any testing, I would guess no - they may not have wanted the same stat to "double dip" in terms of attack resolution...

[Riltus]

Mark thanks for the information, that is great.

Do you have any thoughts on whether dex adds "crit weighting" on UAC? Without having done any testing, I would guess no - they may not have wanted the same stat to "double dip" in terms of attack resolution...

No idea. I haven't done any DEX bonus testing.

Mark