Naijin F’d up CMANs - Share & Discuss

[Skeletor]

Imm fed up and it just had to be said outside of the ass kissing that is Discord.

Naijin royally messed with CMANs for the worse in my humblest of opinions. It’s just across the board bad for my pures and even my warrior.

I’m literally getting hit for 107 endrolls and the mobs are knocking me over and stunning me for like 4 rounds or more. What is going on?

Yes red rep me you ass kissers!

[BJARN]

He fixed them and made them better in almost every situation

[Donquix]

All my characters are overall significantly better. From mid level pures to super post cap squares.

Sounds like you're just salty af about a random death.

[Teveriel]

He fixed them and made them better in almost every situation

This has been my experience as well, offensively and defensively. Cunning Defense cman helps a lot more, too. Especially for pures.

[Skeletor]

All my characters are overall significantly better. From mid level pures to super post cap squares.

Sounds like you're just salty af about a random death.

Not really salty. This is what I’m seeing and you can confirm it or deny it.

1.) There seems to be a higher roll threahold for me to get to hit now. So, say like 70+ roll is needed and I’m counting all open rolls as hits although it sometimes is not.

2.) However when you do get it, it hits hard even at lower end rolls.

3.) Spell cmans seem to be ever more prevalent and they just pwn you.

I’m not really talking about active offensive CMANs since I rarely use those but CMAN defense.

[Skeletor]

This has been my experience as well, offensively and defensively. Cunning Defense cman helps a lot more, too. Especially for pures.

How does cunning defense help at all? It’s like +30 dodge ranks at max? Am I missing something? Serious Q.

[Maerit]

I would definitely say my bard never successfully blocks a tackle from the monstrosities in SoS, and he's basically getting pinned for 12-20s every time he stands up. I believe his halfling stature contributes to how easily he gets tackled along with having less TPs placed into SMR defense skills. I will probably start trying to stay prone on my bard since standing up usually results in an immediate re-tackle and double digit round time. My other pures are basically steam rolling things now. They'll die to open rolls, but nothing else seems to be a problem.

Didn't someone do testing with cunning defense and proved it was basically a waste of CMAN points now? Either you train in the CMAN directly, or don't bother was the feedback I saw in discord. I.E. pures should train feint and disarm to ~4 ranks, then SStrike for bandits and if you do warcamps get some dirtkick training.

[caelric]

I will probably start trying to stay prone on my bard since standing up usually results in an immediate re-tackle and double digit round time.

Not an attack on you, but I would say that if staying prone means you're more survivable and defendable in melee combat, there are some design problems in there somewhere.

[Skeletor]

I would definitely say my bard never successfully blocks a tackle from the monstrosities in SoS, and he's basically getting pinned for 12-20s every time he stands up. I believe his halfling stature contributes to how easily he gets tackled along with having less TPs placed into SMR defense skills. I will probably start trying to stay prone on my bard since standing up usually results in an immediate re-tackle and double digit round time. My other pures are basically steam rolling things now. They'll die to open rolls, but nothing else seems to be a problem.

Didn't someone do testing with cunning defense and proved it was basically a waste of CMAN points now? Either you train in the CMAN directly, or don't bother was the feedback I saw in discord. I.E. pures should train feint and disarm to ~4 ranks, then SStrike for bandits and if you do warcamps get some dirtkick training.

If going by Naijin it should be harder to connect with you on your Halfling but it would hit harder after connection.

I still don’t get cunning defense. So many GMs are babbling about how even 1% is a “big deal” but I think thats bull. I guess further testing?

[Donquix]

If going by Naijin it should be harder to connect with you on your Halfling but it would hit harder after connection.

I still don’t get cunning defense. So many GMs are babbling about how even 1% is a “big deal” but I think thats bull. I guess further testing?

The change effectively made no difference in how hard you get hit. It only eliminated being hit sometimes entirely.

previously you just got a huge penalty. so if something had X skill difference to you, and you had a 20 penalty for the size difference, they would hit you on any roll of x - 20. Now it's post roll, so they have to roll 20 higher to hit you at all. however, when they do, that result is the same as if they hit you with that same roll in the old system. That is to say, even "small" successes may seem more impactful than you're used to, but if that same roll from that same creature was on the old system it was likely a large success anyway.

There's other moving parts with the stance changes and all that, but specifically the movement of the size penalty to post-roll was a pretty large buff for small races. The only place anything should have gotten worse is a slight decrease in specific maneuvers you had attempted to maximize against. Like disarm, at best you're probably looking at 90ish success to defense against, previously you could be a bit better than that. in exchange you now can have ~70% to defend against bandit maneuvers, charge, tackle, etc. that were almost all guaranteed successes. Those increased returns are actually more noticeable for small races now since their racial phantom SMR dodge bonuses are *huge*. That bonus gets you into the diminishing returns territory quickly though so you'll taper off like everyone else but you can now get really solid defense against all maneuvers before getting to 10-12m experience on a pure.

[drumpel]

If going by Naijin it should be harder to connect with you on your Halfling but it would hit harder after connection.

I still don’t get cunning defense. So many GMs are babbling about how even 1% is a “big deal” but I think thats bull. I guess further testing?

A 1% increase for AS/DS/TD/CS can be significant.

If you're near capped or capped and you swing with 450 AS - 1% of that is 4.5. If truncated you net +4, if not you net +5 to your AS. This is built on a closed system, you know what your thresholds for hitting a target are or for defending are. If you know getting an extra 5 to your TD makes you invulnerable to the creatures you're hunting, you can generally find a way to get that +5 to keep you protected at all times.

A 1% increase for your SMRv2 defense might be beneficial, but at a much lesser amount. SMRv2 is an open roll system. Regardless of how much extra defense you can put towards your SMRv2, you're still going to get fucked with the open rolls. No one is safe from SMR, ever. I found it irritating that my burghal gnome lost 20 to his SMRv2 defense against krag dwellers. It used to take around 80+ roll to him him, under the changes it's now a 60+ roll to him him, yes he is over hunting them right now by a few levels....but that loss of 20 defense is big; even on a low endroll of 104+ he's getting stunned 4+ rounds and left prone. I've been hit by the boulder maneuver 6 times since I started hunting him after about a month break from playing him and I don't hunt him that often, one or two hunts a day.

I suppose the maneuvers would irritate me less if they didn't outright maim and stun for days on lower endrolls, or even kill at times. Perhaps they should be looking into how those low endrolls of 101-105 are lethal (at times) to certain classes or at least those in non-crit padded light armor or robes. I've had boar charges with a 102 endroll do a rank 3 crit on my sorcerer a handful of times....a fucking 102. I can understand getting knocked over, maybe with a small wound with low 1-2 round stun with a roll like that.....but a 102 endroll doing a rank 3 crit to the eye is fucked up. Nothing like passing through a room and instantly dead from a 102 endroll from a boar charge.

[Orthin]

Not an attack on you, but I would say that if staying prone means you're more survivable and defendable in melee combat, there are some design problems in there somewhere.

My pure cleric was this way in Den of Rot - it was more dangerous to be stuck in RT lock from constant 20 second tackles than to fight on my back. My guess is the bard is a pure

[caelric]

Oh, I'm sure the bard is a pure, and that it worked that way for you, as well.

But it's a bad design decision. I mean, if something can CMAN TACKLE something standing, it **should** be even easier to tackle someone that's prone and send them into extended RT.

I'd say it's a problem with CMAN TACKLE or whatever CMAN was being used.

[Orthin]

double post for some reason

[Orthin]

Oh, I'm sure the bard is a pure, and that it worked that way for you, as well.

But it's a bad design decision. I mean, if something can CMAN TACKLE something standing, it **should** be even easier to tackle someone that's prone and send them into extended RT.

I'd say it's a problem with CMAN TACKLE or whatever CMAN was being used.


Tackle doesn't work while you are prone because...well your prone

[caelric]

Tackle doesn't work while you are prone because...well your prone

Well, yeah, but if you can tackle someone standing up, then certainly, you can dogpile on top of them when they are laying down, which should give even more RT. Perhaps less damage, from them not hitting the ground in a tackle, but certainly more disabling, I would think.

[Airemet]

So I’ve done some extensive testing with SMRv2 at capped hunting on the test server. I had 2 test subjects, both capped, one a Halfling the other a Giantman, they were completely maxed in cman skills with 100 million in ascension exp. This is what I discovered.

Cunning Defense is huge. Yeah, everbody was wondering why they would waste like 20 points or 40 if you’re a pure but it matters especially toward the upper end. The reason why is that even a 1 point difference is huge when you’re dealing with a window to get hit of say 10 to 15.

That 10 to 15 point difference existed against enemies that were post-cap such as greater water elementals or Vvrael destroyers etc. This made sense since I was a maxed ascension character.

Therefore, this means that enemies would need to roll a 86 or above or 91 or above to actually hit me depending upon the post-cap enemy. That means even a 1 point increase will effectively yield compared to someone who has and doesn’t have cunning defense a +10% increase in defense. To put that another way if a character without cunning gets hit 1,000 times a character with cunning will get hit only 900 times.

In fact, it’s slightly better than that as those 30 dodge ranks I think yields around 1.5% bonus (an eyeballed guess). The half a point bonus does appear as the endrolls will vary between two distinct numbers, similar to how “in-between” cer on crit weighting works.

These were on fully maxed characters with absolutely no room for improvement on their respective cman skills.

I’ve begun to do testing on less well trained characters and currently it’s a predictable progression. That is, the number of points that those 30 dodge ranks yields become more and more apparent, however the window for a critter to hit you widens gradually as well. If I were to guess the % chance of being hit stays roughly the same as long as you are not overhunting in excess of a couple levels or so.

[Hedrik]

The new CMAN system gave my bard some more flexibility. Cunning Defense adding phantom ranks of dodge makes it increasingly useless the further post cap you get and you can put the CMAN points somewhere else.

I'm not a fan of the new SMR2 system at all but I suppose this is there way of dealing with power creep. Naijin just made it all about RNG and open rolls make any decision you make or training setup useless.

[Orthin]

Well, yeah, but if you can tackle someone standing up, then certainly, you can dogpile on top of them when they are laying down, which should give even more RT. Perhaps less damage, from them not hitting the ground in a tackle, but certainly more disabling, I would think.

I smell two new CMAN's you can sell on Discord

Dogpile - Warriors
Teabag - Rogues

essentially do the same thing, add RT to prone targets and force stance open

[caelric]

Bonus points for Teabag.

[beldar17]

Pretty sure Monstrosities in SOS do not go off SMR, they tackle you too often with crazy RT. My SMR defense should be super high and they always get me.

[Maerit]

Well, sounds like I will drop some of my superfluous CMAN training in lieu of cunning defense then. Not sure I will go full 5 ranks because on a Pure that's 20 CMAN points for the final rank, but 4 ranks is reasonable.

My bard is pure, I agree that being prone = safe seems silly, but it's a tactic people have employed for a long time to combat various creature AI. Monstrosities in SoS seem to have the following priorities with their AI:

stomp or tackle if the target isn't prone, then stomp or attack if the target is prone.

Seriously, that's what they do. Tackle spam until you're stuck in RT and then they attack you once you're prone in RT. Standing in front of a monstrosity is a liability unless you have a really simple way to disable them before they knock you over.

[Airemet]

The real kicker that I discovered through my testing is that Halflings, just by their race alone, yields a whopping +6% gain over Giantman. Yes you read that right.

That means that a Halfling was taking only half the hits of a Giant toward extreme endgame play. That is to say the giant would take 1,000 hits then the Halfling was taking only 500 or so.

Although I don’t play small races and I might be biased but Halfings never needed any extra help. That whole encumbrance armor skill benefit and the porter ascension skill is a load of crock in my opinion.

[Alashir]

Imm fed up and it just had to be said outside of the ass kissing that is Discord.

Naijin royally messed with CMANs for the worse in my humblest of opinions. It’s just across the board bad for my pures and even my warrior.

I’m literally getting hit for 107 endrolls and the mobs are knocking me over and stunning me for like 4 rounds or more. What is going on?

Yes red rep me you ass kissers!

Please keep the shit posts contained to the racist political threads. If you need help Tgo will point you in the right direction

[Seizer]

Please keep the shit posts contained to the racist political threads. If you need help Tgo will point you in the right direction
https://64.media.tumblr.com/045005172ab27d79c45694b9df4490d2/6fd1da57f047f974-5d/s400x600/dc2728bc2447df99ae93b7222a26b880adb37331.gifv

[gilchristr]

If I have an option to invest TPs in offense, that can avoid some of 1000 attacks, I'll take that over training defense to merely eliminate 100 of those 1000 hits.

Put the TPs in skills that put the bad guys in roundtime, do not just let them kick your ass 900 times intead of 1000 times.

I guess if you are truely max on every skill that increases your chance to incapacitate mobs, then investing in merely getting hit 900 times intead of 1000 does make sense.

[LOL BRIELUS]

Interesting thread,. My warrior cleaned up with these changes. Enemy cmans almost never hit him. I use tackle a lot and it went from hitting 50% of the time to 95%+, even on giant critters as a halfling.

What's funny is how Naijin openly says halfling warriors suck, but he mega buffed them anyway

[Skeletor]

Interesting thread,. My warrior cleaned up with these changes. Enemy cmans almost never hit him. I use tackle a lot and it went from hitting 50% of the time to 95%+, even on giant critters as a halfling.

What's funny is how Naijin openly says halfling warriors suck, but he mega buffed them anyway

Naijin’s main and original character was a Halfling warrior with like 24 mil exp or something. He tried to get it to work for years. basically, in the end, the only answer was to become GM, lol.

[beldannon5]

I have noticed I am having some issues getting hit weird with shield bash and other things during berserk. I am not a fan so far of the changes

[hamsquatch]

I might not be reading this correctly, is Cunning Defense no longer as viable as before? My warrior is 67 and I have noticed more action.

[Skeletor]

I might not be reading this correctly, is Cunning Defense no longer as viable as before? My warrior is 67 and I have noticed more action.

Noticed more action as in not getting hit as much? Because that’s what the guy who did the tests is saying that CD helps a ton with evading maneuvers.

[hamsquatch]

Noticed more action as in not getting hit as much? Because that’s what the guy who did the tests is saying that CD helps a ton with evading maneuvers.

I've noticed minotaurs and Krag dwellers hitting a bit less, but more serious when they do, off the top of my head. I'm not sure what being a giant does here. It seems like the "phantom" dodge ranks might not make sense until later on closer to cap, with 2x dodge how useful is Cunning Defense?

[ArtieJr]

Is this the place to bitch about Implosion? FYI - Forgive my ignorance on game mechanics as I am pretty newly back to game after a long absence (15 years).

OK, back to Implosion / 720. I don't even get to see a damn roll, just obliterated. I'm playing a 2.5 times capped, well geared, max skilled, unencumbered warrior and I'm getting one shot obliterated daily by some critter casting implosion. I've checked GS wiki to see if there are any tricks to avoiding but it doesn't seem so. Anyway, it does seem rather F'd up. I find plenty of ways to die when the fight is fair, 720 just seems a bit much.

[Skeletor]

Is this the place to bitch about Implosion? FYI - Forgive my ignorance on game mechanics as I am pretty newly back to game after a long absence (15 years).

OK, back to Implosion / 720. I don't even get to see a damn roll, just obliterated. I'm playing a 2.5 times capped, well geared, max skilled, unencumbered warrior and I'm getting one shot obliterated daily by some critter casting implosion. I've checked GS wiki to see if there are any tricks to avoiding but it doesn't seem so. Anyway, it does seem rather F'd up. I find plenty of ways to die when the fight is fair, 720 just seems a bit much.

Complain about it on the officials and on discord. Sorcerers are actually up, right now, for a profession review so it’s -the- perfect time to write a clear thought out post on the officials about implosion.

[Orthin]

Is this the place to bitch about Implosion? FYI - Forgive my ignorance on game mechanics as I am pretty newly back to game after a long absence (15 years).

OK, back to Implosion / 720. I don't even get to see a damn roll, just obliterated. I'm playing a 2.5 times capped, well geared, max skilled, unencumbered warrior and I'm getting one shot obliterated daily by some critter casting implosion. I've checked GS wiki to see if there are any tricks to avoiding but it doesn't seem so. Anyway, it does seem rather F'd up. I find plenty of ways to die when the fight is fair, 720 just seems a bit much.

I want to say 207 helps? but I could just be blowing out my butt. And if it does help I doubt it is much

[Avaia]

OK, back to Implosion / 720. I don't even get to see a damn roll, just obliterated. I'm playing a 2.5 times capped, well geared, max skilled, unencumbered warrior and I'm getting one shot obliterated daily by some critter casting implosion. I've checked GS wiki to see if there are any tricks to avoiding but it doesn't seem so. Anyway, it does seem rather F'd up. I find plenty of ways to die when the fight is fair, 720 just seems a bit much.

If you did play 15 years ago you would know that Implosion worked then exactly like it currently does. Up to now it hasn't been touched.

Don't worry, Sorcerers are getting a profession review sooner rather than later and I'm sure they will SMRv2 it, nerfing the spell into the ground.

[Skeletor]

If you did play 15 years ago you would know that Implosion worked then exactly like it currently does. Up to now it hasn't been touched.

Don't worry, Sorcerers are getting a profession review sooner rather than later and I'm sure they will SMRv2 it, nerfing the spell into the ground.

To be fair they are SMRv2ing every spell just about.

[Archigeek]

I've found that my offensive CMANs are now much more effective when uphunting. For example, I can now coup a lich with pretty decent consistency, whereas before the review, that was impossible. Also, the RT for coup went down, and in general my successes result in higher end rolls, meaning higher AS boosts. I use it much more now. Trample remains as effective as ever.

TLDR: OP is not correct

[Skeletor]

I've found that my offensive CMANs are now much more effective when uphunting. For example, I can now coup a lich with pretty decent consistency, whereas before the review, that was impossible. Also, the RT for coup went down, and in general my successes result in higher end rolls, meaning higher AS boosts. I use it much more now. Trample remains as effective as ever.

TLDR: OP is not correct

What race are you?

[Roblar]

I've found that my offensive CMANs are now much more effective when uphunting. For example, I can now coup a lich with pretty decent consistency, whereas before the review, that was impossible. Also, the RT for coup went down, and in general my successes result in higher end rolls, meaning higher AS boosts. I use it much more now. Trample remains as effective as ever.

TLDR: OP is not correct

I noticed that on coup too. Basically some things got easier, some got harder, level is less a factor, size is more of one, all depends on the manuevers. Some could use tweaking.

[Archigeek]

What race are you?

Human. I'll add, the RT for coup dropped way way down to 3 seconds, before an error was fixed. Now it's typically 5 seconds, but clearly tied to encumbrance.

[gilchristr]

So is there no CML anymore ... everything that used to be CML is just SMRv2 now?>

[drumpel]

So is there no CML anymore ... everything that used to be CML is just SMRv2 now?>

To my understanding, yes.

Their goal is to get all maneuvers and spells and such onto one system - which is SMRv2.

[khorpulent]

Pretty sure Monstrosities in SOS do not go off SMR, they tackle you too often with crazy RT. My SMR defense should be super high and they always get me.

Monstros use bullrush.

[gilchristr]

Here is the gemstone evolution:

Gemstone -> gemstone II -> gemstone III -> gemstone IV -> SMRv2

[LOL BRIELUS]

Here is the gemstone evolution:

Gemstone -> gemstone II -> gemstone III -> gemstone IV -> SMRv2

-> FroppleStone V

[TheLastShamurai]

As some point in there it became Gnomestone.

[GSIV Rogue]

If you did play 15 years ago you would know that Implosion worked then exactly like it currently does. Up to now it hasn't been touched.

Don't worry, Sorcerers are getting a profession review sooner rather than later and I'm sure they will SMRv2 it, nerfing the spell into the ground.

It was stated today on Discord by Oscuro that 720 will be getting moved to SMRv2 with the sorcerer changes.

[Riven]

I didnt know anyone had rebalanced the cmans, but I did notice I have been getting killed more often by one off maneuvers.

I have maxed Cunning Defense, and have noticed myself getting killed more often by one shots and/or CCed to death by mobs multiple levels below me.

spiders have been webbing me for over 1 minute at times, and before I am out of the first web, I am rewebbed. Or I get knocked down by a maneuver and stunned, then before I can stand up, I'm CCed again.

I'm all about a fun, challenging game. But being unable to survive if I can't stun lock, or keep all my enemies CCed is ridiculous. If enemy CC is going to be so effective, than they need to make it so if you are CCed, you cannot be CCed again before the first breaks.

[drumpel]

I didnt know anyone had rebalanced the cmans, but I did notice I have been getting killed more often by one off maneuvers.

I have maxed Cunning Defense, and have noticed myself getting killed more often by one shots and/or CCed to death by mobs multiple levels below me.

spiders have been webbing me for over 1 minute at times, and before I am out of the first web, I am rewebbed. Or I get knocked down by a maneuver and stunned, then before I can stand up, I'm CCed again.

I'm all about a fun, challenging game. But being unable to survive if I can't stun lock, or keep all my enemies CCed is ridiculous. If enemy CC is going to be so effective, than they need to make it so if you are CCed, you cannot be CCed again before the first breaks.

My understanding was with dwarf race there shouldn't have really been a change.

However, black forest creatures have a greater chance to hit him with their attacks: spit, knee bash or subdue (whatever the rogue based ogres use) and the boar charges. I think the biggest change is the fact that forward stance provides the same defense as neutral, guarded or defensive stance. My reduxmage shouldn't have felt really any change in his defense abilities, but instead of the creatures requiring 75+ rolls to hit him, they only need around a 60 roll. He gets hit from spit more often and gets hit from charges more often, if he wasn't in his studded leather with somewhat crit padding he'd be getting the crap kicked out of him. Thankfully he's got scale armor and crit padding to lessen the maneuvers (not sure if redux helps, I don't think it does....if it does, his 15% redux is helping, if not....whatever).

I've got a sorcerer in SWCP robes and they don't seem to do jack shit against a 106 endroll from a boar charge, he generally ends up dead. Speaking of my sorcerer, he's a burghal gnome and he's also lost a good 20some points to his SMRv2 defense against maneuvers. Krag dwellers used to need around an 85 rolls to hit him with their boulder maneuver, now they need around 60. I've been hit by it so many more times than I used to and that maneuver hits hard, if not killing him he's usually stunned for 6+ rounds and prone...then one hit from a yeti or dweller kills him as he's laying there.

So don't feel like you're the only one that's getting hit more often. It sucks.

[zennsunni]

We're getting closer and closer to the only relevant thing that ever happens in combat being large open rolls.

[gilchristr]

"...the only relevant thing that ever happens in combat being large open rolls"

I think GSIV has been, for a long time, the only relevant thing is who acts first. Certainly if you build up your defenses, you can not die in 95% of the encounters where you act second. But since you have to kill thousands of creatures to level, that still means you died. You have to act first with an attack that puts the other guy in RT.

Was it really that different when the creature acted first and killed you with an SMR "v1" roll? All seems the same to me.

[Stolis]

This change kinda sucks. Just out of boredom, I tried to disarm someone who is the same level, zero CMAN training. I have the max 5 ranks of disarm cman training. Cannot disarm them.

[LOL BRIELUS]

were they fast race vs slow race? halflings and gnomes have giant cman defensive bonuses from what i understand now

[Stolis]

were they fast race vs slow race? halflings and gnomes have giant cman defensive bonuses from what i understand now

Dark Elf vs Sylvan

[Orthin]

Dark Elf vs Sylvan

wouldn't more than just CMANs play a role with everything going to SMR?

[Stolis]

wouldn't more than just CMANs play a role with everything going to SMR?

Maybe? But I figure max cman disarm ability vs someone with zero cman training at all, this shouldn't be a thing. It wasn't an issue prior to the change if I felt like being an asshole? But now I can't disarm anything.

You swing your orase runestaff at a siren's silvery blue trident!
[SMR result: 121 (Open d100: 113)]
You connect!
A siren's silvery blue trident is knocked from her grasp and out of sight!

I needed an open roll to disarm stuff. So that's cool?

[bunnymustdie]

Maybe? But I figure max cman disarm ability vs someone with zero cman training at all, this shouldn't be a thing. It wasn't an issue prior to the change if I felt like being an asshole? But now I can't disarm anything.

You swing your orase runestaff at a siren's silvery blue trident!
[SMR result: 121 (Open d100: 113)]
You connect!
A siren's silvery blue trident is knocked from her grasp and out of sight!

I needed an open roll to disarm stuff. So that's cool?

Are you 1x trained in combat maneuvers? I vaguely remember it mentioned somewhere that 1x cman is the expected baseline for the new system.

[Stolis]

Are you 1x trained in combat maneuvers? I vaguely remember it mentioned somewhere that 1x cman is the expected baseline for the new system.

Yep, that's all I can do. Pure :/

[bunnymustdie]

Yep, that's all I can do. Pure :/

That's really weird. I looked in my logs from when I used disarm on my empath (1x cman, 1x THW) recently and see different results. Here's a few against pirate captains, who should be like-leveled to the character, for comparison:


You are now in an offensive stance.
You swing your steel greatsword at The Krolvin Captain's heavy crossbow!
[SMR result: 239 (Open d100: 85, Bonus: 100)]
You connect!
The Krolvin Captain's heavy crossbow is knocked from her grasp and out of sight!


You are now in an offensive stance.
You swing your steel greatsword at The Ethereal Captain's short sword!
[SMR result: 224 (Open d100: 59, Bonus: 100)]
You connect!
The Ethereal Captain's short sword is knocked from her grasp and out of sight!


You are now in an offensive stance.
You swing your steel greatsword at The Ethereal Captain's handaxe!
[SMR result: 222 (Open d100: 55, Bonus: 100)]
You connect!
The Ethereal Captain's handaxe is knocked from her grasp and out of sight!


One thing I can think of that might be messing up your disarm would be if you were trying to do it in like, stance defensive, since attacker stance does affect the outcome. If you were already doing it in stance offensive, maybe the attacker's weapon skills also play a role - dunno for sure since I'm too lazy to dig through all the maneuver update stuff to verify, though.

[Stolis]

That's really weird. I looked in my logs from when I used disarm on my empath (1x cman, 1x THW) recently and see different results. Here's a few against pirate captains, who should be like-leveled to the character, for comparison:




One thing I can think of that might be messing up your disarm would be if you were trying to do it in like, stance defensive, since attacker stance does affect the outcome. If you were already doing it in stance offensive, maybe the attacker's weapon skills also play a role - dunno for sure since I'm too lazy to dig through all the maneuver update stuff to verify, though.

I'll stance dance around with it a bit, but yeah I thought that was rather odd to be that shitty against a person with 0 CM, and then even in the wild. Naijin should be punched in the dick for making this change.

[gilchristr]

You never punch someone in the dick!

[Stolis]

You never punch someone in the dick!

In certain situations, it's perfectly acceptable to punch someone in the dick.

[Shaps]

In certain situations, it's perfectly acceptable to punch someone in the dick.

Some people actually like it. Just saying. :)

[Stolis]

Some people actually like it. Just saying. :)

Gotta pay a little extra for the speed bagging, I think.

[drumpel]

I called out Naijin on the officials about how he comments that the overall changes to CML going to SMRv2 is overall better, even though pures and semis have been commenting about how much harder maneuvers now hit and how much worse they are overall at defending against things with the loss of 20-30 SMRv2 defense and my post was pulled by asshat wearing Aulis claiming my post had "masked vulgarity" and it is against posting policy to use such phrases.

I'm sure he's calling my use of WTF "masked vulgarity" in this comment from my post:

"When my pures do get hit it usually means that low endrolls are a pain in the ass for my pures that lack crit padding and decent armor to offset some of the criticals. All my pures, even my reduxmage that's a full 1x in CM (and even has 2 ranks of Cunning Defense under his belt) has lost 20-30 points of SMRv2 defense with forward being the best defensive stance against SMRv2. Low, pathetic rolls of 103 have crit killed my pures before. They've caused rank 3 eye/neck/head wounds that caust instant kill. Or the break your leg or take it clean off....seriously, a 103 endroll, WTF? Low endrolls under the same skills that were CML didn't result in the horrific stuns or crit kills. You usually need a somewhat decent roll to cause major damage from these skills."


Aulis said to email him with any questions/concerns about it....so I emailed him about 6 hours ago asking why I've seen people flat out post on the forums, rudely insulting others and literally calling them douche bags, yet those posts never got pulled.

I have yet to hear back from him.

Again, the guy is an asshat.


I actually think the reason the post was pulled was because of my last paragraph that put Naijin on the spot:

"The overall change to things, while it looks better on paper is not better in overall experience from what I've been having and others have been saying. When pures and semis (as some have posted) are telling you that things are not better and are for the worse and why it is, you telling us that the change is "better" for pures doesn't fix the issue nor address our concerns."

[caelric]

Yeah, saw that before it was pulled. Not surprised. You posted an opinion contrary to that of the mighty GMs, and they used the 'masked vulgarity' as a pretext to pull it.

[Methais]

I called out Naijin on the officials about how he comments that the overall changes to CML going to SMRv2 is overall better, even though pures and semis have been commenting about how much harder maneuvers now hit and how much worse they are overall at defending against things with the loss of 20-30 SMRv2 defense and my post was pulled by asshat wearing Aulis claiming my post had "masked vulgarity" and it is against posting policy to use such phrases.

I'm sure he's calling my use of WTF "masked vulgarity" in this comment from my post:

"When my pures do get hit it usually means that low endrolls are a pain in the ass for my pures that lack crit padding and decent armor to offset some of the criticals. All my pures, even my reduxmage that's a full 1x in CM (and even has 2 ranks of Cunning Defense under his belt) has lost 20-30 points of SMRv2 defense with forward being the best defensive stance against SMRv2. Low, pathetic rolls of 103 have crit killed my pures before. They've caused rank 3 eye/neck/head wounds that caust instant kill. Or the break your leg or take it clean off....seriously, a 103 endroll, WTF? Low endrolls under the same skills that were CML didn't result in the horrific stuns or crit kills. You usually need a somewhat decent roll to cause major damage from these skills."


Aulis said to email him with any questions/concerns about it....so I emailed him about 6 hours ago asking why I've seen people flat out post on the forums, rudely insulting others and literally calling them douche bags, yet those posts never got pulled.

I have yet to hear back from him.

Again, the guy is an asshat.


I actually think the reason the post was pulled was because of my last paragraph that put Naijin on the spot:

"The overall change to things, while it looks better on paper is not better in overall experience from what I've been having and others have been saying. When pures and semis (as some have posted) are telling you that things are not better and are for the worse and why it is, you telling us that the change is "better" for pures doesn't fix the issue nor address our concerns."

Aulis has always a been a huge piece of shit and has no business being a moderator of anything. I've gone off on him plenty of times over emails over similar bullshit.

He might even be worse than Emeradan was.

[audioserf]

I called out Naijin on the officials about how he comments that the overall changes to CML going to SMRv2 is overall better, even though pures and semis have been commenting about how much harder maneuvers now hit and how much worse they are overall at defending against things with the loss of 20-30 SMRv2 defense and my post was pulled by asshat wearing Aulis claiming my post had "masked vulgarity" and it is against posting policy to use such phrases.

I'm sure he's calling my use of WTF "masked vulgarity" in this comment from my post:

"When my pures do get hit it usually means that low endrolls are a pain in the ass for my pures that lack crit padding and decent armor to offset some of the criticals. All my pures, even my reduxmage that's a full 1x in CM (and even has 2 ranks of Cunning Defense under his belt) has lost 20-30 points of SMRv2 defense with forward being the best defensive stance against SMRv2. Low, pathetic rolls of 103 have crit killed my pures before. They've caused rank 3 eye/neck/head wounds that caust instant kill. Or the break your leg or take it clean off....seriously, a 103 endroll, WTF? Low endrolls under the same skills that were CML didn't result in the horrific stuns or crit kills. You usually need a somewhat decent roll to cause major damage from these skills."


Aulis said to email him with any questions/concerns about it....so I emailed him about 6 hours ago asking why I've seen people flat out post on the forums, rudely insulting others and literally calling them douche bags, yet those posts never got pulled.

I have yet to hear back from him.

Again, the guy is an asshat.


I actually think the reason the post was pulled was because of my last paragraph that put Naijin on the spot:

"The overall change to things, while it looks better on paper is not better in overall experience from what I've been having and others have been saying. When pures and semis (as some have posted) are telling you that things are not better and are for the worse and why it is, you telling us that the change is "better" for pures doesn't fix the issue nor address our concerns."

Make the exact same post but leave out the WTF. Yeah the vulgarity thing is stupid but they're never going to drop it, so don't give them that "in" to pull your post.

[bunnymustdie]

I called out Naijin on the officials about how he comments that the overall changes to CML going to SMRv2 is overall better, even though pures and semis have been commenting about how much harder maneuvers now hit and how much worse they are overall at defending against things with the loss of 20-30 SMRv2 defense...

..."The overall change to things, while it looks better on paper is not better in overall experience from what I've been having and others have been saying. When pures and semis (as some have posted) are telling you that things are not better and are for the worse and why it is, you telling us that the change is "better" for pures doesn't fix the issue nor address our concerns."

I saw that post and thought it was reasonable. Like audioserf said, just post it there again without the WTF at the end. It had good points that people should see.

I actually find the overall way Naijin is responding disheartening. At first he tries to flat out dismiss people's concern with a canned response stating things should be better for all pures on all maneuvers, which sure as hell ain't true. When people, even some semis, disagreed he goes on to focus on and try to dismiss technical details from people's complaints & feedback. He just seemed weirdly defensive.

Generally, if you release a big new update to your game, and multiple customers are giving feedback that something feels off/buggy, or flat out tells you that the game is now less enjoyable, you just make tweaks to resolve the issue, that's all. Bugs can pop up, and sometimes a mechanic may be balanced, but still not fun to play. You just tweak things again, is all. No one's perfect and big updates & releases of this nature always require some fine tuning afterwards anyway. The way he buckled down and flat out ignored the overall message of these feedback is disappointing.

[Methais]

Make the exact same post but leave out the WTF. Yeah the vulgarity thing is stupid but they're never going to drop it, so don't give them that "in" to pull your post.

I see posts left up with that all the time. But if Aulis doesn't like you, he'll look for any reason to pull a post.

[audioserf]

I saw that post and thought it was reasonable. Like audioserf said, just post it there again without the WTF at the end. It had good points that people should see.

I actually find the overall way Naijin is responding disheartening. At first he tries to flat out dismiss people's concern with a canned response stating things should be better for all pures on all maneuvers, which sure as hell ain't true. When people, even some semis, disagreed he goes on to focus on and try to dismiss technical details from people's complaints & feedback. He just seemed weirdly defensive.

Generally, if you release a big new update to your game, and multiple customers are giving feedback that something feels off/buggy, or flat out tells you that the game is now less enjoyable, you just make tweaks to resolve the issue, that's all. Bugs can pop up, and sometimes a mechanic may be balanced, but still not fun to play. You just tweak things again, is all. No one's perfect and big updates & releases of this nature always require some fine tuning afterwards anyway. The way he buckled down and flat out ignored the overall message of these feedback is disappointing.

That's pretty Simu behavior though. Look at August 2020 Duskruin and the bug with group leaders not receiving any tokens/orbs for team runs. People kept posting in discord that they noticed over thousands of runs their group leader getting NO drops and the GMs kept insisting 'working as intended'. Then they looked into it some more and oh, shit, it's fucking broken, and Wyrom gave people orb reparations. Then look at the loot cap. People noticed that if they hit loot cap and grouped with someone else, that other person got their loot cap fucked up ('Loot Gehrig's Disease'), and then we hear 'working as intended' again for weeks before PC user fortybox posted sweet graphs and charts showing his loot intake over time and they looked into it and WHAT DO YOU KNOW, there was a bug!

[bunnymustdie]

That's pretty Simu behavior though. Look at August 2020 Duskruin and the bug with group leaders not receiving any tokens/orbs for team runs. People kept posting in discord that they noticed over thousands of runs their group leader getting NO drops and the GMs kept insisting 'working as intended'. Then they looked into it some more and oh, shit, it's fucking broken, and Wyrom gave people orb reparations. Then look at the loot cap. People noticed that if they hit loot cap and grouped with someone else, that other person got their loot cap fucked up ('Loot Gehrig's Disease'), and then we hear 'working as intended' again for weeks before PC user fortybox posted sweet graphs and charts showing his loot intake over time and they looked into it and WHAT DO YOU KNOW, there was a bug!

I guess you're right. Can't argue with all of those examples. It's sad that they depended on fortybox to help find the bug when that kind of stuff is something their paid dev should be doing on their own. I kinda did a "haaah?" irl when I saw Naijin asking players for data on the open roll issue this morning. It's like, you're a paid dev, shouldn't you have gone and tested it out yourself or something? Took someone bringing it up for him to go do his own tests.

When Auchand released a big update for spirit beasts, a lot of people were initially unhappy with how things worked. He actually listened to feedback, and made tweaks in the game to address most of the people's concerns. No weird defensive attitude either. Too bad spirit beast is just a niche side game. I guess Auchand just raised my expectations to unrealistically high levels.

[drumpel]

I saw that post and thought it was reasonable. Like audioserf said, just post it there again without the WTF at the end. It had good points that people should see.

I actually find the overall way Naijin is responding disheartening. At first he tries to flat out dismiss people's concern with a canned response stating things should be better for all pures on all maneuvers, which sure as hell ain't true. When people, even some semis, disagreed he goes on to focus on and try to dismiss technical details from people's complaints & feedback. He just seemed weirdly defensive.

Generally, if you release a big new update to your game, and multiple customers are giving feedback that something feels off/buggy, or flat out tells you that the game is now less enjoyable, you just make tweaks to resolve the issue, that's all. Bugs can pop up, and sometimes a mechanic may be balanced, but still not fun to play. You just tweak things again, is all. No one's perfect and big updates & releases of this nature always require some fine tuning afterwards anyway. The way he buckled down and flat out ignored the overall message of these feedback is disappointing.

I shouldn't have to repost it because Aulis decided my comment was worth pulling even when it's not as bad as other posts I've seen left up on the boards. I didn't flame anyone, I didn't call anyone a name. I simply posted my disgust about the situation.

Aulis needs to stop feeling like he is the policy for the forums and picking and choosing what posts stay and go. He should actually moderate correctly.



I see posts left up with that all the time. But if Aulis doesn't like you, he'll look for any reason to pull a post.

I think I average at least 1 pulled post about every 8 weeks from Aulis. I tend to call out stupid shit on the officials and he does like to nitpick on some of the posts of mine that he pulls.

I won't say that all my pulled posts aren't warranted, but this most recent one was just a blatant use of his moderation powers. Like you said, I've seen other folks post WTF and cuss words and those posts don't get pulled.

I posted about a week back on a topic and used the word "shitty". In fact, I think the sentence was something like "it's a pretty shitty game design" and that post is still up.

One day when I'm really bored I might just go through official boards and mark a bunch of posts with vulgarity in them and blast aulis to feedback about how he picks and chooses what posts to pull. I'm not that spiteful....not yet.

[Avaia]

There have been enough cases over the years of players finding bugs that DEV didn't realize were there that you would think players would get the benefit of the doubt, but no.

[Methais]

That's pretty Simu behavior though. Look at August 2020 Duskruin and the bug with group leaders not receiving any tokens/orbs for team runs. People kept posting in discord that they noticed over thousands of runs their group leader getting NO drops and the GMs kept insisting 'working as intended'. Then they looked into it some more and oh, shit, it's fucking broken, and Wyrom gave people orb reparations. Then look at the loot cap. People noticed that if they hit loot cap and grouped with someone else, that other person got their loot cap fucked up ('Loot Gehrig's Disease'), and then we hear 'working as intended' again for weeks before PC user fortybox posted sweet graphs and charts showing his loot intake over time and they looked into it and WHAT DO YOU KNOW, there was a bug!

Is there a link to this somewhere? I thought everything was still people speculating and Simu insisting that everything was fine. I didn't realize they found it, acknowledged it, and fixed it.

[audioserf]

I read it at the time but since it's discord I'm 100% never going to be able to link to it. Essentially they found there were issues in the code that were affecting grouping mechanics and they fixed it. They were never specific about what was wrong or what was fixed or how it was fixed, but I don't think anyone has reported 'infecting' another character with loot cap since.

[Methais]

I read it at the time but since it's discord I'm 100% never going to be able to link to it. Essentially they found there were issues in the code that were affecting grouping mechanics and they fixed it. They were never specific about what was wrong or what was fixed or how it was fixed, but I don't think anyone has reported 'infecting' another character with loot cap since.

Everything is such shit with how Simu refuses to properly document any bug fixes or general changes to anything, and instead expect people to literally live on Discord 24/7 in order to know what's happening in game. Which I'm sure is by design, since Simu loves acting shady.

"Hey Estild why is X different? Did something change?"

"Yes. We announced that 3 weeks ago...in Discord...at 2:37am."


but I don't think anyone has reported 'infecting' another character with loot cap since.

So...the pandemic is over?

[drumpel]

Decided to play around with finding some SMRv2 defense info since the shitty defense reduction from PSM2. Most of my pures, even my warmage, has lost upwards of 30 points of SMRv2 defense since this change and they all just seem to get blasted. Once PSM3 goes live, my understanding is that the extra cost for CM skills is removed for Semis and Pures, so at 20 ranks a Pure should be able to train in 5 ranks of Cunning Defense.

On the test server I used my capped mage with 101 wizard spell ranks and I cast 917 at my warmage that I brought to cap level using "levelup".

Warmage stats that impact SMRv2:
AGI = 100/20 (Stat/Bonus)
DEX = 100/25
INT = 98/24

Base SMRv2 defense (base means no spells active, zero ranks in PF/Dodge/Perception/CM, full health, no wounds, full spirit, wearing no armor, not encumbered) = 58.

The lower his SMRv2 defense is, the harder it is for him to be hit. Think of it as % chance for him to be hit. A base SMRv2 defense of 58 means he has a 58% chance to be hit on a d100 roll (not including open rolls).

Now, to represent the idea of a newly capped pure I put his perception ranks and PF ranks up to 101 each. Most folks will 1x perception and FP to cap. Remember that Perception/Dodge/CM/PF are all weighted the same for SMRv2 defense.

101 perception (1x is about the norm at freshly capped for a pure)
101 Physical Fitness (1x is about the norm at freshly capped for a pure)
Total of 202 ranks

Here are the initial rolls for casts of 917 vs 202 ranks:
[SMR result: 43 (Open d100: 11)] Defense = 32
[SMR result: 116 (Open d100: 83)] Defense = 33
[SMR result: 64 (Open d100: 32)] Defense = 32
[SMR result: 49 (Open d100: 17)] Defense = 32
(roughly 33% chance to be hit)


Here are the initial rolls for casts of 917 after adding 20 ranks of CM
101 perception
101 Physical Fitness
20 CM
Total of 222 ranks

Here are the initial rolls for casts of 917 vs 222 ranks:
[SMR result: 109 (Open d100: 79)] Defense = 30
[SMR result: 72 (Open d100: 42)] Defense = 30
[SMR result: 84 (Open d100: 54)] Defense = 30
[SMR result: 106 (Open d100: 76)] Defense = 30
(roughly a 30% chance to be hit)


Here are the initial rolls for casts of 917 after adding 20 ranks of CM and 5 ranks of Cunning Defense (this will be represented by 30 ranks of added dodge ranks since 5 ranks of CD = 30 dodge ranks):
101 perception
101 Physical Fitness
20 CM
30 Dodge
Total of 252 ranks

Here are the initial rolls for casts of 917 vs 252 ranks:
[SMR result: 136 (Open d100: 109)] Defense = 27
[SMR result: 87 (Open d100: 60)] Defense = 27
[SMR result: 102 (Open d100: 75)] Defense = 27
[SMR result: 77 (Open d100: 49)] Defense = 28
[SMR result: 73 (Open d100: 45)] Defense = 28
(roughly a 28% chance to be hit)


After adding 50 ranks (20 from CM and then 30 phantom dodge ranks from 5 ranks of Cunning Defense) a pure (wizard in this case) will gain maybe 4-5 points of SMRv2 Defense. That's a long way from the upwards of 30 points that some have lost with the PSM2 calculation adjustment for SMRv2 defense.

Take from it what you will, but my warmage going from about a 15% chance for boar charges and viper spit to hit him to around 30-35% with this change over sucks. Only getting maybe 2-3 points of SMRv2 defense from 5 ranks of Cunning Defense isn't going to change anything for him....he already has 2 rank in CD right now in game and 2 ranks doesn't add much (8 ranks of Dodge, which in return gives 1 SMRv2 defense).

I probably wouldn't think the change sucked, but as I'm walking around hunting and I enter a room, every single fucking time a viper spits it always has a high enough roll to guarantee it hits my warmage. Worse was when three vipers were in a room and they all fucking hit me with a spit as I walked into the room. I had 70+ poison damage per pulse and only dissipating at 6 per.

Or the fact that out of 12 manuevers/skills used against my capped mage in Nelemar all had rolls high enough to hit him.
He got swept 3 different times walking through rooms.
How he took 2 shoulder charges (one was a high open roll).
How he took 3 different spear charges (one was a high open roll).
How he took 3 different disarms (even after 540 triggered for one of the disarms, I'm supposed to be able to defend better against it, but the second roll came back at almost a 300 endroll that still disarmed him).
How he took 2 different times getting dunked under the water.

That all happened within the first 5 minutes of starting his hunt. I was fucking irritated after that I haven't been back in to play and this happened last Friday.

[Skeletor]

Decided to play around with finding some SMRv2 defense info since the shitty defense reduction from PSM2. Most of my pures, even my warmage, has lost upwards of 30 points of SMRv2 defense since this change and they all just seem to get blasted. Once PSM3 goes live, my understanding is that the extra cost for CM skills is removed for Semis and Pures, so at 20 ranks a Pure should be able to train in 5 ranks of Cunning Defense.

On the test server I used my capped mage with 101 wizard spell ranks and I cast 917 at my warmage that I brought to cap level using "levelup".

Warmage stats that impact SMRv2:
AGI = 100/20 (Stat/Bonus)
DEX = 100/25
INT = 98/24

Base SMRv2 defense (base means no spells active, zero ranks in PF/Dodge/Perception/CM, full health, no wounds, full spirit, wearing no armor, not encumbered) = 58.

The lower his SMRv2 defense is, the harder it is for him to be hit. Think of it as % chance for him to be hit. A base SMRv2 defense of 58 means he has a 58% chance to be hit on a d100 roll (not including open rolls).

Now, to represent the idea of a newly capped pure I put his perception ranks and PF ranks up to 101 each. Most folks will 1x perception and FP to cap. Remember that Perception/Dodge/CM/PF are all weighted the same for SMRv2 defense.

101 perception (1x is about the norm at freshly capped for a pure)
101 Physical Fitness (1x is about the norm at freshly capped for a pure)
Total of 202 ranks

Here are the initial rolls for casts of 917 vs 202 ranks:
[SMR result: 43 (Open d100: 11)] Defense = 32
[SMR result: 116 (Open d100: 83)] Defense = 33
[SMR result: 64 (Open d100: 32)] Defense = 32
[SMR result: 49 (Open d100: 17)] Defense = 32
(roughly 33% chance to be hit)


Here are the initial rolls for casts of 917 after adding 20 ranks of CM
101 perception
101 Physical Fitness
20 CM
Total of 222 ranks

Here are the initial rolls for casts of 917 vs 222 ranks:
[SMR result: 109 (Open d100: 79)] Defense = 30
[SMR result: 72 (Open d100: 42)] Defense = 30
[SMR result: 84 (Open d100: 54)] Defense = 30
[SMR result: 106 (Open d100: 76)] Defense = 30
(roughly a 30% chance to be hit)


Here are the initial rolls for casts of 917 after adding 20 ranks of CM and 5 ranks of Cunning Defense (this will be represented by 30 ranks of added dodge ranks since 5 ranks of CD = 30 dodge ranks):
101 perception
101 Physical Fitness
20 CM
30 Dodge
Total of 252 ranks

Here are the initial rolls for casts of 917 vs 252 ranks:
[SMR result: 136 (Open d100: 109)] Defense = 27
[SMR result: 87 (Open d100: 60)] Defense = 27
[SMR result: 102 (Open d100: 75)] Defense = 27
[SMR result: 77 (Open d100: 49)] Defense = 28
[SMR result: 73 (Open d100: 45)] Defense = 28
(roughly a 28% chance to be hit)


After adding 50 ranks (20 from CM and then 30 phantom dodge ranks from 5 ranks of Cunning Defense) a pure (wizard in this case) will gain maybe 4-5 points of SMRv2 Defense. That's a long way from the upwards of 30 points that some have lost with the PSM2 calculation adjustment for SMRv2 defense.

Take from it what you will, but my warmage going from about a 15% chance for boar charges and viper spit to hit him to around 30-35% with this change over sucks. Only getting maybe 2-3 points of SMRv2 defense from 5 ranks of Cunning Defense isn't going to change anything for him....he already has 2 rank in CD right now in game and 2 ranks doesn't add much (8 ranks of Dodge, which in return gives 1 SMRv2 defense).

I probably wouldn't think the change sucked, but as I'm walking around hunting and I enter a room, every single fucking time a viper spits it always has a high enough roll to guarantee it hits my warmage. Worse was when three vipers were in a room and they all fucking hit me with a spit as I walked into the room. I had 70+ poison damage per pulse and only dissipating at 6 per.

Or the fact that out of 12 manuevers/skills used against my capped mage in Nelemar all had rolls high enough to hit him.
He got swept 3 different times walking through rooms.
How he took 2 shoulder charges (one was a high open roll).
How he took 3 different spear charges (one was a high open roll).
How he took 3 different disarms (even after 540 triggered for one of the disarms, I'm supposed to be able to defend better against it, but the second roll came back at almost a 300 endroll that still disarmed him).
How he took 2 different times getting dunked under the water.

That all happened within the first 5 minutes of starting his hunt. I was fucking irritated after that I haven't been back in to play and this happened last Friday.

Dude, cut and paste this and post this on the officials under the PSM3 thread so Naijin that "I don't know? whatever do you mean? Everything is just fine!" asshat can see this shit.

[caelric]

Dude, cut and paste this and post this on the officials under the PSM3 thread so Naijin that "I don't know? whatever do you mean? Everything is just fine!" asshat can see this shit.

You think that will change anything at all? He'll just say that those results aren't typical, or some BS like that.

[Methais]

Dude, cut and paste this and post this on the officials under the PSM3 thread so Naijin that "I don't know? whatever do you mean? Everything is just fine!" asshat can see this shit.

"Despite all of your data that indicates otherwise, everything is fine." -Naijin, probably

[bunnymustdie]

After adding 50 ranks (20 from CM and then 30 phantom dodge ranks from 5 ranks of Cunning Defense) a pure (wizard in this case) will gain maybe 4-5 points of SMRv2 Defense. That's a long way from the upwards of 30 points that some have lost with the PSM2 calculation adjustment for SMRv2 defense.

This more or less fits with what I noticed when I did my tests on the test server.



I probably wouldn't think the change sucked, but as I'm walking around hunting and I enter a room, every single fucking time a viper spits it always has a high enough roll to guarantee it hits my warmage. Worse was when three vipers were in a room and they all fucking hit me with a spit as I walked into the room. I had 70+ poison damage per pulse and only dissipating at 6 per.



Yeah, it noticeably sucked on my robe wearing wizard, too. I gave the system a chance and spent a couple of months playing with it via all my characters, who wear different types of armors ranging from robes to plate. Maybe having a dude who mains a plate wearing warrior taking a sledge hammer approach to revamp a game system that impacts everyone, glass cannon pures included, was not a good idea.


"Despite all of your data that indicates otherwise, everything is fine." -Naijin, probably

You think that will change anything at all? He'll just say that those results aren't typical, or some BS like that.

Yeah, plenty of people have already provided feedback on how off-tuned maneuvers felt after PSM 2 on the officials. And those basically were his responses back then. Based on his recent comment on this and how he asked for logs so he can investigate further, I get the impression that there were many different, yet inter-related, moving components that got changed, merged or flat out deleted when the old systems got converted to the PSM 2 system, and that even if he's now open to the idea that something could be bugged or over-tweaked (which to his credit, seem likely) , he has no idea where to start looking to fix the issue.

This actually make me worry a lot about the PSM 3 updates, since there's easily 10 times the amount of different mechanics and moving parts in various game systems that will be impacted by it compared to the PSM 2 update.

[gilchristr]

When he asked for logs to look into, I just took it as the car dealership asking for copies of all your services records before they will do warranty work. It basically means piss off (but let me know if you want a new car...).

[Neveragain]

"Despite all of your data that indicates otherwise, everything is fine." -Naijin, probably

It's kind of hard to blame anyone but whoever at SIMU continues to pay peanuts for coders. If they didn't treat their language like some ancient Chinese secret it would give them a lot more eyes to help with testing. It doesn't take a lot of experience to land a job making 70 to 100k to just edit/update systems and do it while working at home.

That's also the most likely reason most their major projects never get finished. It all sounds great until you crack open the bottomless can of worms.

Open source is the future of gaming. There's game currency already being traded in the crypto markets and SIMU still can't get a mail system in their game.

[caelric]

If they didn't treat their language like some ancient Chinese secret

But does it get the whites white?

[Rinualdo]

Naijin yesterday. Sounds like he's trying on his own to verify and not dismiss off hand.


Naijin — Yesterday at 8:15 PMI'd do more testing but I'm currently ensuring SMR rolls are working as intended. Rolled the script back to June of 2020 for some funsies testing.
I keep having people saying that their SMR defense got worse and I've yet to see any concrete examples.
If anyone has any, that'd be great too.

[caelric]

Naijin yesterday. Sounds like he's trying on his own to verify and not dismiss off hand.

I've got a bridge to sell you.

[drumpel]

Naijin yesterday. Sounds like he's trying on his own to verify and not dismiss off hand.

That's just horseshit of a response from him.

When they tanked the defense from your guarded/defensive stance to be no better than what forward stance offered, that's where people lost their SMRv2 defense.

I even thought that the tweak from CML getting moved to SMRv2 would make bandits more tolerable, but I was mistaken. Got hit by a maneuver and all the added bonus points (penalty for me) that the next thugs got due to being stunned/injuried/missing health and I got steamrolled like a little bitch.

Then I figured bandits will still be something I avoid. So I run out to hunt with my warmage.....I see that his roughly 15% chance to getting hit from viper spit and boar charges. Usually a roll of around 85 or higher (which wasn't that uncommon due to the open roll system) was a successful hit. After the changes he went to about a 35% chance to get hit....

Naijin saying he hasn't seen any defense getting worse....what a load of shit.

[Skeletor]

Naijin's full response and testing judge for yourself....

Hey all,

I've taken some time to rollback SMR in Development to the version prior to Phase 2 (June 2020) as due diligence. Below are comparisons from June 2020 and now, with explanations of why the rolls are the way they are. This is a very time consuming process but hopefully helps show exactly how things have changed.

Dwarf Wizard, full leather, self-spelled, and training that correlates with what I would consider freshly capped. Spell ranks may vary slightly but spell based bonuses were not changed and do not impact the results.

Relevant skills are as follows:

Armor Use..........................| 20 4
Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Perception.........................| 201 101

Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 50

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 75

Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 100

Relevant Stats are as follows:

Dexterity (DEX): 100 (25)
Agility (AGI): 100 (20)
Intuition (INT): 100 (25)



Spell 917 (Earthen Fury)

June 2020, guarded
The earth cracks beneath you, releasing a column of frigid air!
[SMR result: 60 (Open d100: 33)] = +27

Present, guarded
The earth cracks beneath you, releasing a column of frigid air!
[SMR result: 51 (Open d100: 33)] = +18 magic so the wizard gets a 20% boost.

Result: Net gain of +9%. The change to guarded from Phase 2 was a nerf, but to help offset some of that players were given a bonus against magical SMR rolls provided they are aligned with or know the spell. The wizard here is getting a bonus of 20%. The net result is a boost from June 2020 to present day. See below for an explanation of the stance change as well as the spell knowledge breakdown.

June 2020, offensive
The earth cracks beneath you, releasing a column of frigid air!
[SMR result: 104 (Open d100: 57)] = +47

Present, offensive
Craggy debris explodes from the ground beneath you!
[SMR result: 65 (Open d100: 37)] = +28

Result: Net gain of ~19%. This matches expectations, because offensive stance had no changes. Throw in the 20% bonus for being a Wizard and a d1000 roll for the missing 1%, and it aligns perfectly from June 2020 to present day.



Spell 309 (Condemn)

All results below should match above, with the exception that the wizard no longer has a 20% spell knowledge bonus. Let's see what happens.

June 2020, Guarded
[SMR result: 5 (Open d100: 28)] = -23

Present, Guarded
[SMR result: 48 (Open d100: 59)] = -11

Result: Net loss of ~11%. This is entirely due to the guarded change, and was intended.

June 2020, offensive
[SMR result: 82 (Open d100: 84)] = -2

Present, offensive
[SMR result: 22 (Open d100: 24)] = -2

Result: Net result of 0. Matches expectations since offensive stance wasn't changed at all.



Against combat maneuvers (charge, shield bash, shield charge, etc), this same Wizard went from 100%+ chance to be hit in June 2020 to ~78% in present day.



Why was the stance bonus reduced?

Pures were simply defending too well against maneuvers. That was largely due to their ability to sit in guarded or be in offensive for a very short duration. Pures were defending against maneuvers better than warriors, rogues, bards, paladins, and rangers. They were roughly on par with monks.



To summarize, here's what you should have noticed from the Phase 2 changes.

General SMR
1. The stance bonus that guarded and lower provided was halved. This amounts to ~12% loss of defense for pures who sit in guarded. This value changes slightly based on training, but is roughly in the 10-15% range.
2. Players were given a bonus to magical SMR attacks to help offset some of the effects of #1, and to reinforce magical knowledge helping them out. Here's the outline of how spell knowledge affects your defense:
Knowing the spell, regardless of ability to cast: +20% (Rank 5).
Can learn the spell, but hasn’t yet: +8% (Rank 3).
Can learn from the same sphere of magic, but not the same circle: +2% (Rank 1).
No influence in the spell’s sphere: +0% (No ranks).
3. The racial bonus was moved from a flat bonus to a diminishing return dodge based bonus. This affects all races but dwarves, giantman, half-krolvin, and humans, but the racial bonus is still significant. The same wizard above as a halfling would have had ~10% better defense.
4. Ambush pushdown and Force on Force were added.
5. The amount of damage you take from a roll did not change. A 101 endroll in June 2020 is the same as a 101 endroll today, with the exception of Shield Bash and Shield Charge. These two maneuvers were over tuned slightly and will be brought back to more of a setup and not an instant kill in Phase 3.

Note: maneuvers like viper spit or rift crawler burrows do not consider spell ranks or combat maneuver ranks at all.

Combat Maneuvers
1. Players across the board should have 30% or more of a boost to defense against Combat Maneuvers. The more SMR defense you get, the higher this bonus becomes.
2. Shields help defend against most maneuvers. CMAN HELP <skill> will list whether or not a shield helps in the target's defense.
3. There is a rank based bonus that's similar to the spell knowledge bonus. Here's the outline of how maneuver knowledge affects your defense:
Rank 1: +2%
Rank 2: +4%
Rank 3: +8%
Rank 4: +12%
Rank 5: +20%
Guild Master: +25%
4. The racial size modifiers were moved to post-roll calculations. This means that a halfling is harder to hit (better SMR defense), but when they do get hit with size-based maneuvers the endroll is adjusted based on their size penalty.



Finally, I realize that this is only one example, but it's intended to show precisely how things have changed. Feel free to ask any questions and I'll try to reply as quickly as possible. I realize these are complicated systems with a lot of moving parts so I'll try to break replies down as clearly as possible. I'm also available in #mechanics on Discord and answer questions there.

- Naijin

[bunnymustdie]

Got hit by a maneuver and all the added bonus points (penalty for me) that the next thugs got due to being stunned/injuried/missing health and I got steamrolled like a little bitch.



This is an issue I noticed with the new system, as well. Basically once you get hit, you have a significantly lower chance of making a comeback from the situation if you're not in plate (or have 140 up) and capable of tanking through the whole thing. Before, even in lighter armor types, you could fire off your emergency skills or otherwise still manage to last through the initial stun/round time and escape a reasonable amount of time. It may not be an actual bug, but just an unintended interaction in the new system. Similarly, lowering everyone's defenses means people are getting hit more (at least with more common stuff like creature maneuvers), seeing higher end rolls on those hits and then being subject to the above steamroll phenomenon you described - basically, more interacting mechanics that compound and exacerbate each other.

Players don't like to feel helpless. They dislike these new dynamic the same way they dislike getting insta-gibbed by a single charge maneuver or stacking round times (which feels more prevalent now, as well) in the older system. If the code on the backend is working as intended, then it might do good to either raise everyone's baseline maneuver defense back up a bit or lower the penalties from stun/injuries/whatever somewhat. Maybe a bit of both.

[drumpel]

5. The amount of damage you take from a roll did not change. A 101 endroll in June 2020 is the same as a 101 endroll today, with the exception of Shield Bash and Shield Charge. These two maneuvers were over tuned slightly and will be brought back to more of a setup and not an instant kill in Phase 3.

The damage did change. A skill used on players when under CML didn't do as much damage as they do now, converted to SMRv2.

When a 150 endroll from a charge when under CML only knocked my wizard down and provided a minor and some health loss with maybe a 1-2 round stun....that wasn't awful, it was tolerable.

That same maneuver utilizing SMRv2 with a 150 will easily break a limb or put a bleeder in your ab/chest/back, reduce health by a significant amount more and result in a 4+ round stun.

It's not that the maneuvers that were already using SMRv2 got any more powerful, it's the abilities that were transitioned from CML to SMRv2 that hit harder.

[Methais]

It's kind of hard to blame anyone but whoever at SIMU continues to pay peanuts for coders. If they didn't treat their language like some ancient Chinese secret it would give them a lot more eyes to help with testing. It doesn't take a lot of experience to land a job making 70 to 100k to just edit/update systems and do it while working at home.

That's also the most likely reason most their major projects never get finished. It all sounds great until you crack open the bottomless can of worms.

Open source is the future of gaming. There's game currency already being traded in the crypto markets and SIMU still can't get a mail system in their game.

ENJ is starting to push back up today. It's had a rough month. :(

[gilchristr]

4. Ambush pushdown and Force on Force were added.


So is he saying that, prior to the change a pure had SMRv2 defense that stayed high after repeated attacks in a room full of critters, but after the update, chain attacks would reduce it down to almost nothing (thats what force on force does).

If so, mystery solved, someone might want to tell him that. I would tell him if he nutted up and posted on the PC about game design and his feelings and stuff.

[Skeletor]

4. Ambush pushdown and Force on Force were added.


So is he saying that, prior to the change a pure had SMRv2 defense that stayed high after repeated attacks in a room full of critters, but after the update, chain attacks would reduce it down to almost nothing (thats what force on force does).

If so, mystery solved, someone might want to tell him that. I would tell him if he nutted up and posted on the PC about game design and his feelings and stuff.

I don't think Naijin understands what kind mindfuck rabbit hole he's opened up with all these changes.

For instance I'm staying mum right now with my pure because I'm turning him into a polearm user. There's a weapon skill that pulls you out of melee combat and therefore most CMAN attacks.

And I bet when this metric ton of shit of changes goes live there will be like 82763688299299826 loopholes, OP skills and builds, and a whole bunch of crap that'll make the game even more convulted and totally unplayable.

[bunnymustdie]

For instance I'm staying mum right now with my pure because I'm turning him into a polearm user. There's a weapon skill that pulls you out of melee combat and therefore most CMAN attacks.


Pures don't get those new weapon skills even if they got the appropriate weapon trainings, though. Unless that's changed since I last read that document.

[Skeletor]

Pures don't get those new weapon skills even if they got the appropriate weapon trainings, though. Unless that's changed since I last read that document.

I think it's based completely on weapon ranks. Unless, Naijin said something f'd up about that too.

[bunnymustdie]

I think it's based completely on weapon ranks. Unless, Naijin said something f'd up about that too.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but here it is from the PSM 3 doc:


Weapon skills are a new player system whose skills are automatically available once a player reaches the required weapon ranks. Weapon skills are available to squares and semis. Weapon skills are unlocked at 10, 25, 50, and 100 weapon ranks. The skills listed below are in order of their unlock level.

[Skeletor]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but here it is from the PSM 3 doc:

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/18282031/giphy___2019_07_04T160108.827.gif

[gilchristr]

"Weapon skills are available to squares and semis."

That's cute, its like the least direct way of saying that weapon skills are NOT available to pures.

It would be like explaining to my kid that tomatoes are not a vegtable by giving him a list that says, the following objects ARE vegtables and putting everything but tomatoes on the list.

Maybe thats one of the reasons why the document is 36 pages long now

[Neveragain]

ENJ is starting to push back up today. It's had a rough month. :(

It's not too far off that there will be a small hand full of currencies that will be used across games \ platforms that you will be able to use to make real world purchases. Eventually there will be a "hub war" between tech companies I.E. Google vs. Facebook. The closer we get to being hardwired to the web 24/7 the more relevant this stuff will become. The IRS has already made attempts at taxing game currencies, the only reason they backed off is because it's going to be a giant pile of dicks when they do it.

The operation I'm partnered with in SL has skyrocketed over the past couple months. I had a couple meetings this week with some of SL's lower management in promotions and I start training with them next month. They have an annual Sci-Fi convention where all these independent creators set up their booths and display their new avatars, skins, gear, buildings, vehicles.....basically anything you can imagine.

All open source, 0 subscription fee.

[drumpel]

"Weapon skills are available to squares and semis."

That's cute, its like the least direct way of saying that weapon skills are NOT available to pures.

It would be like explaining to my kid that tomatoes are not a vegtable by giving him a list that says, the following objects ARE vegtables and putting everything but tomatoes on the list.

Maybe thats one of the reasons why the document is 36 pages long now


At the very minimum, the weapon skill ranks should be increased to unlocked at 25, 75, 125 and 150 for all classes.

This would allow pures that train in weapons to obtain the first two weapon skills by level 24 and level 74.
This would allow squares & semis to obtain all weapon skills (since they can 2x in weapons) at level 12, 37, 62 and 74.


Ideally I'd take it further and break it up by class:
Allows squares to obtain the skills faster than semis at the following weapon ranks: 10, 25, 50, and 100
Allow semis to obtain the skills slow than squares, but faster than pures can earn theirs at the following ranks: 20, 40, 75, 125
Allow pures to obtain the first couple of skills at the following ranks: 35 and 75.

Squares are the melee class, they should have the upper hand and advantage to utilize the skills faster.
Semis are well trained for melee, but aren't solely dedicated to it like a square, so they should require more weapon ranks to get all the skills.
Pures, they can swing a weapon, but they'll never be as good as any semi or square and should be limited to just the first two skill levels.



However, Naijin, won't every allow something like this because he doesn't play a pure and seems to think changing everything over to a MMO graphical style gameplay system will improve things.

Right now that shithole of a PSM3 document is just a fucking nightmare to look over.

So many times I find my wizard getting swept, PSM3 will apply "Vulnerable" (increased chance to be hit by next unaimed attack in a vital location).

Or how about if going up against a creature that can cause Weakened Armament (loss of 1 Armor Group - not a sub-group, but 1 full armor group). This means that even if you are wearing double leather, get hit by something that causes Weakened Armament you're effectively wearing cloth until the effect wears off.

So many of the added effects will just cause a fucking headache for pures and a lot of semis due to loss of EBP or silence effect or being immobilized or loss of a full armor group or being kept from doing any actions......this whole change is going to fucking suck for pures and I'm sure some semis are going to feel it as well.

[audioserf]

The idea of having to keep track of all these new status effects sounds fuckin awful tbh. PSM3 is a nothingburger to me since my only square is a monk and they pulled archetypes which were the only interesting thing, but they're really running the risk of turning a game which already has a steep learning curve into an unplayable text Rubix cube.

[Skeletor]

The idea of having to keep track of all these new status effects sounds fuckin awful tbh. PSM3 is a nothingburger to me since my only square is a monk and they pulled archetypes which were the only interesting thing, but they're really running the risk of turning a game which already has a steep learning curve into an unplayable text Rubix cube.

He's trying to turn this into a standard modern MMO, like others have said here. Status effects are the bread and butter in games like WoW or really any MMO.

I suppose they'll add more letters next to that '>' like instead of just S for stun or B for bleeding or whatever there's going to be a A, C, G, X, Y, Z etc. for all the status effects that are active.

They are trying to make the game into something slower, more methodical, more tactical, with group features. If they had a full AAA studio team to do this I give them a 3/5 chance to actually succeed. With part-time Naijin and 'perfectly balanced' Estild, I give them...well I'll let you use your imagination.

[Skeletor]

And yeah Pures are gonna get fucking reck'td. And this is why I keep telling people they are trying to move the game into some kind of group, dungeons and dragons,WoW 6-man team play.

Classic glass cannon (the pure), the tanks (plate users w/ aggro management spells/skills), DoT users, DPS... it's fucking World of GemStone.

[Methais]

I don't think Naijin understands what kind mindfuck rabbit hole he's opened up with all these changes.

For instance I'm staying mum right now with my pure because I'm turning him into a polearm user. There's a weapon skill that pulls you out of melee combat and therefore most CMAN attacks.

And I bet when this metric ton of shit of changes goes live there will be like 82763688299299826 loopholes, OP skills and builds, and a whole bunch of crap that'll make the game even more convulted and totally unplayable.

Yes but Naijin will feel better about his warrior, and that's what's important here.

[Methais]

The idea of having to keep track of all these new status effects sounds fuckin awful tbh. PSM3 is a nothingburger to me since my only square is a monk and they pulled archetypes which were the only interesting thing, but they're really running the risk of turning a game which already has a steep learning curve into an unplayable text Rubix cube.

Here's a sneak peek at how an average hunting encounter will work in Naijinstone:

https://i.imgur.com/DtvdO42.png

[Gelston]

They are trying to make the game into something slower, more methodical, more tactical, with group features. If they had a full AAA studio team to do this I give them a 3/5 chance to actually succeed. With part-time Naijin and 'perfectly balanced' Estild, I give them...well I'll let you use your imagination.

They realize it only takes a couple weeks to cap in most MMOs right?

[drumpel]

They realize it only takes a couple weeks to cap in most MMOs right?

I liked Aion when it came out - I enjoyed the game play and the work needed to obtain good equipment. I played for a year or more.

I eventually came back to the game to see what it was like after I found it moved to F2P. I found out that they implemented boosts to experience and you could mow through the first 30 levels within a few days. It was a huge change over it taking 2-3 weeks to power through level 30 when I first played the game.

At level 30 they had a special armor set that required you to play through on multiple characters because every character you can get 1 piece of this armor set. After 5 or 6 toons to level 30 you'd have a full set that you could put on one character and it boosted your power significantly....but after the game changed to F2P, the quality level 30 armor set was basically worthless compared to how fast you can obtain other items and how fast you out level the set.

Then they tacked on other things to help boost item power and every time you boosted an item a level, the next boost required more resources or more scarce resources and if you failed on a random roll to apply a boost to an item you could actually lose out on previously applied boosts....all in all, the game became a convoluted cluster fuck. You could progress through the game without spending a dime, mostly like you could when it was subscription based, but if you wanted to succeed and be a part of the top of the endgame you needed to spend money to get the best of the best.


This is how I feel GSIV is going. It's going to turn into a convoluted cluster fuck and be a huge pain in the ass to relearn how to play or things will be so out of whack that it'll take forever for them to try and "balance" things out....

[Methais]

They realize it only takes a couple weeks to cap in most MMOs right?

Whoa slow down, they still haven't realized that most MMOs have a real endgame yet with real endgame rewards that don't involve throwing thousands of dollars at the game.

[Gelston]

I liked Aion when it came out - I enjoyed the game play and the work needed to obtain good equipment. I played for a year or more.

I eventually came back to the game to see what it was like after I found it moved to F2P. I found out that they implemented boosts to experience and you could mow through the first 30 levels within a few days. It was a huge change over it taking 2-3 weeks to power through level 30 when I first played the game.

At level 30 they had a special armor set that required you to play through on multiple characters because every character you can get 1 piece of this armor set. After 5 or 6 toons to level 30 you'd have a full set that you could put on one character and it boosted your power significantly....but after the game changed to F2P, the quality level 30 armor set was basically worthless compared to how fast you can obtain other items and how fast you out level the set.

Then they tacked on other things to help boost item power and every time you boosted an item a level, the next boost required more resources or more scarce resources and if you failed on a random roll to apply a boost to an item you could actually lose out on previously applied boosts....all in all, the game became a convoluted cluster fuck. You could progress through the game without spending a dime, mostly like you could when it was subscription based, but if you wanted to succeed and be a part of the top of the endgame you needed to spend money to get the best of the best.


This is how I feel GSIV is going. It's going to turn into a convoluted cluster fuck and be a huge pain in the ass to relearn how to play or things will be so out of whack that it'll take forever for them to try and "balance" things out....

That is the thing though, GS is a XP and gear grind. Most modern MMOs are a gear grind, and the leveling up process is basically just teaching you to play the game. If their idea is to slow down combat, that'll effect levelling pretty heavily, since you won't really be blowing through mobs as quick. I totally applaud making every fight harder or requiring more skills. Hell, that sounds great to me, but if makes it take an average of 2 minutes to kill a mob and I only get 100 XP for it, that needs to be addressed.

[Shaps]

That is the thing though, GS is a XP and gear grind. Most modern MMOs are a gear grind, and the leveling up process is basically just teaching you to play the game. If their idea is to slow down combat, that'll effect levelling pretty heavily, since you won't really be blowing through mobs as quick. I totally applaud making every fight harder or requiring more skills. Hell, that sounds great to me, but if makes it take an average of 2 minutes to kill a mob and I only get 100 XP for it, that needs to be addressed.

If they extend fight times, which I'm fine with because I think it opens up the changes they're implementing... I think they should change XP absorption.

I get the longevity of the game - but let's be honest - there are less than 1000 people in the world that play this game regularly. Alts and alt development should be a priority avenue for the company at this stage in my opinion.

Many people have max cap characters, some multiple million XP over cap characters, etc.

Moving forward if they increase fight times - XP revamp should also follow IMO. Field XP should be the current on-node XP per pulse. On-node XP baseline should be moved to as if you have a 2x RP modifier, etc. Some fudging of numbers to scale it etc., but essentially elevate the baseline XP absorb rates.

Reasoning this isn't broken (IMO):
-They charge a monthly fee, not a per minute fee.
-By upping the baseline XP - that would afford people that play fewer hours, to feel like they're making actual progress, which would extend the number of months they actually play (though perhaps not the amount of hours per month they do).
-Those at high end caps already are earning absurd amounts of XP as is, this doesn't really affect their hunting capabilities, just affords them to flush out Ascension or Secondary skills as they desire more readily.
-Affords those already at absurd caps the capability to make an alt they've always wanted to and actually PLAY the character, as opposed to just bigshot bot them. They already bigshot bot toons as is, the natural increased baseline XP gain means they might actually PLAY the character instead.

-Real life money production should not hinder a change like this, though of course it will. Just the shitty situation it is.

-A change to XP gain overall would increase the majority of non-hardcore players, because those that play for an hour or two per night (as opposed to 12+ hours a day) - would see a tangible progression for their efforts as opposed to gaining a level every 2 months.

Lot wrong with this, I know... I know... because it would get abused by about 50 players to absurd levels. But again that goes back to the MA'er/RL money exchangers - and those people are doing it anyways. No real idea how to fix the baseline system currently established by SIMU to address that as is.

[Skeletor]

If they extend fight times, which I'm fine with because I think it opens up the changes they're implementing... I think they should change XP absorption.

I get the longevity of the game - but let's be honest - there are less than 1000 people in the world that play this game regularly. Alts and alt development should be a priority avenue for the company at this stage in my opinion.

Many people have max cap characters, some multiple million XP over cap characters, etc.

Moving forward if they increase fight times - XP revamp should also follow IMO. Field XP should be the current on-node XP per pulse. On-node XP baseline should be moved to as if you have a 2x RP modifier, etc. Some fudging of numbers to scale it etc., but essentially elevate the baseline XP absorb rates.

Reasoning this isn't broken (IMO):
-They charge a monthly fee, not a per minute fee.
-By upping the baseline XP - that would afford people that play fewer hours, to feel like they're making actual progress, which would extend the number of months they actually play (though perhaps not the amount of hours per month they do).
-Those at high end caps already are earning absurd amounts of XP as is, this doesn't really affect their hunting capabilities, just affords them to flush out Ascension or Secondary skills as they desire more readily.
-Affords those already at absurd caps the capability to make an alt they've always wanted to and actually PLAY the character, as opposed to just bigshot bot them. They already bigshot bot toons as is, the natural increased baseline XP gain means they might actually PLAY the character instead.

-Real life money production should not hinder a change like this, though of course it will. Just the shitty situation it is.

-A change to XP gain overall would increase the majority of non-hardcore players, because those that play for an hour or two per night (as opposed to 12+ hours a day) - would see a tangible progression for their efforts as opposed to gaining a level every 2 months.

Lot wrong with this, I know... I know... because it would get abused by about 50 players to absurd levels. But again that goes back to the MA'er/RL money exchangers - and those people are doing it anyways. No real idea how to fix the baseline system currently established by SIMU to address that as is.

Shaps if you got access to the officials post this. It's a solid idea, I like it. :clap:

[Shaps]

Shaps if you got access to the officials post this. It's a solid idea, I like it. :clap:

I never post on the officials - just like I didn't sign up for the Discord thing. I'm weird like that.

I also know there are much smarter people with regards to systems impact such a change would affect, and hopefully their input - or our exchange of ideas on here - help refine such an idea before presentation.

The odd part is - I want the ones that kept this game going all those years, the multi-million XP types to be represented because they did allow the rest of us to continue playing.

At the same time, critical game design modifications - with only those in mind make it extremely difficult for the future of the game.

I have no idea how to resolve that issue, but this is just an idea I had - because the extreme players are still going to be extreme - my focus is how do you build the base of average players potentially. Is it even possible? Not sure.

Thanks for the feedback. Is appreciated.

Edit: In conjunction with the idea though - with a focus on alts and the more casual player base - account bound items should have at a minimum 50% cost reduction. 25% is just not enough. 50-75% reduced cost (I think 60% is about the perfect %) would really amp up participation in events because casuals could actually buy and develop an item over a 1-2 year period, without having to go batshit nuts "zoom-zoom-zoom 5000 runs at DR". It would create an actual market for casuals to feel empowered to work on an item, when they can't afford 500m+ on the resell market.

[Malvadere]

Dang it Shaps, I'm going to have to unblock you if you keep talking sense about GS instead of spewing shit in politics. Nice ideas.

[Tgo01]

but they're really running the risk of turning a game which already has a steep learning curve into an unplayable text Rubix cube.

Holy shit! 32 pages of changes in the PSM3.

Are they at least doing these changes in phases? Or are we all going to wake up one morning with 32 pages of changes to the game?

[Berost]

Holy shit! 32 pages of changes in the PSM3.

Are they at least doing these changes in phases? Or are we all going to wake up one morning with 32 pages of changes to the game?

Plat will wake up with it. And then get to see what's broken on their scale of population. Then we get to break it. I assume.

[Methais]

If they extend fight times, which I'm fine with because I think it opens up the changes they're implementing... I think they should change XP absorption.

I get the longevity of the game - but let's be honest - there are less than 1000 people in the world that play this game regularly. Alts and alt development should be a priority avenue for the company at this stage in my opinion.

Many people have max cap characters, some multiple million XP over cap characters, etc.

Moving forward if they increase fight times - XP revamp should also follow IMO. Field XP should be the current on-node XP per pulse. On-node XP baseline should be moved to as if you have a 2x RP modifier, etc. Some fudging of numbers to scale it etc., but essentially elevate the baseline XP absorb rates.

Reasoning this isn't broken (IMO):
-They charge a monthly fee, not a per minute fee.
-By upping the baseline XP - that would afford people that play fewer hours, to feel like they're making actual progress, which would extend the number of months they actually play (though perhaps not the amount of hours per month they do).
-Those at high end caps already are earning absurd amounts of XP as is, this doesn't really affect their hunting capabilities, just affords them to flush out Ascension or Secondary skills as they desire more readily.
-Affords those already at absurd caps the capability to make an alt they've always wanted to and actually PLAY the character, as opposed to just bigshot bot them. They already bigshot bot toons as is, the natural increased baseline XP gain means they might actually PLAY the character instead.

-Real life money production should not hinder a change like this, though of course it will. Just the shitty situation it is.

-A change to XP gain overall would increase the majority of non-hardcore players, because those that play for an hour or two per night (as opposed to 12+ hours a day) - would see a tangible progression for their efforts as opposed to gaining a level every 2 months.

Lot wrong with this, I know... I know... because it would get abused by about 50 players to absurd levels. But again that goes back to the MA'er/RL money exchangers - and those people are doing it anyways. No real idea how to fix the baseline system currently established by SIMU to address that as is.

I like it.

Simu will hate it. :(

[Teveriel]

If they extend fight times, which I'm fine with because I think it opens up the changes they're implementing... I think they should change XP absorption.

I get the longevity of the game - but let's be honest - there are less than 1000 people in the world that play this game regularly. Alts and alt development should be a priority avenue for the company at this stage in my opinion.

Many people have max cap characters, some multiple million XP over cap characters, etc.

Moving forward if they increase fight times - XP revamp should also follow IMO. Field XP should be the current on-node XP per pulse. On-node XP baseline should be moved to as if you have a 2x RP modifier, etc. Some fudging of numbers to scale it etc., but essentially elevate the baseline XP absorb rates.

Reasoning this isn't broken (IMO):
-They charge a monthly fee, not a per minute fee.
-By upping the baseline XP - that would afford people that play fewer hours, to feel like they're making actual progress, which would extend the number of months they actually play (though perhaps not the amount of hours per month they do).
-Those at high end caps already are earning absurd amounts of XP as is, this doesn't really affect their hunting capabilities, just affords them to flush out Ascension or Secondary skills as they desire more readily.
-Affords those already at absurd caps the capability to make an alt they've always wanted to and actually PLAY the character, as opposed to just bigshot bot them. They already bigshot bot toons as is, the natural increased baseline XP gain means they might actually PLAY the character instead.

-Real life money production should not hinder a change like this, though of course it will. Just the shitty situation it is.

-A change to XP gain overall would increase the majority of non-hardcore players, because those that play for an hour or two per night (as opposed to 12+ hours a day) - would see a tangible progression for their efforts as opposed to gaining a level every 2 months.

Lot wrong with this, I know... I know... because it would get abused by about 50 players to absurd levels. But again that goes back to the MA'er/RL money exchangers - and those people are doing it anyways. No real idea how to fix the baseline system currently established by SIMU to address that as is.

Solid ideas here. I agree with Skeletor, post 'em up.

[Rinualdo]

Plat will wake up with it. And then get to see what's broken on their scale of population. Then we get to break it. I assume.

They have stated it will go to test and then plat for an extended period of time before prime.

[Tgo01]

They have stated it will go to test and then plat for an extended period of time before prime.

Yeah but it's all being dropped at once? That's a lot of updates to take in all at once.

[Rinualdo]

Yeah but it's all being dropped at once? That's a lot of updates to take in all at once.

I'm fairly certain they have said recently it would be released as a single entity, but that may not mean all on test at the same time. I could see them not releasing the warrior service, for example, right away.

From what I've gathered, most of the code is done, they are in the process of providing messaging for the skills, and they expect to release another large PSM3 update to the doc fairly soon(tm).

Thus far they've given no timeline or even desired release prior or quarter.

[gilchristr]

Rinualdo, is your avatar supposed to be a hillariously framed to not look like a lamp if you close your eyes and open them really fast?

[gilchristr]

"Here's a sneak peek at how an average hunting encounter will work in Naijinstone"

Lol at FPS = 8 in the upper left hand corner. That screenshot is definitely how I felt when I opened the PMS 3.0 document

[GS4Ranger]

Well I ran some numbers on Ithzir disarming and under the old system, with around 148 disarm attempts 6 succeeded and 142 failed, 4.05% and 95.94%, respectively. Under the new system, with around 131 disarm attempts 46 succeeded and 86 failed, 35.11% and 64.88%, respectively. No changes in any training.

Naijin made things worse.

[Skeletor]

Well I ran some numbers on Ithzir disarming and under the old system, with around 148 disarm attempts 6 succeeded and 142 failed, 4.05% and 95.94%, respectively. Under the new system, with around 131 disarm attempts 46 succeeded and 86 failed, 35.11% and 64.88%, respectively. No changes in any training.

Naijin made things worse.

Profession? Build? Gear?

Also, that was kind of the point. Naijin wanted to nerf pures he just can't seem to come out and just say it.

[GS4Ranger]

Profession? Build? Gear?

Also, that was kind of the point. Naijin wanted to nerf pures he just can't seem to come out and just say it.

The point of my quick numbers without additional information was that nothing changed from the time prior to the conversion to after the conversion. From a pure previous-to-now perspective, without any changes, the changes have been detrimental (at least to my main and from the data that I have) and contradict his "The conversion to SMRv2 will increase baseline defense against CML across the board..." statement.

I get disarmed so much more now in OTF I just walk into a room, drop my weapon, and kick it into the environs just to shave a few seconds off of combat.

[bunnymustdie]

...Also, that was kind of the point. Naijin wanted to nerf pures he just can't seem to come out and just say it.

I think the update was just too overtuned in terms of maneuver defense. I saw Luxelle's build that she posted on the forums, she has 1x PF, 1x Perception, and 1x Dodge & .3x Combat Maneuvers with 5 ranks in Cdefense. Her maneuver defense should be already a good bit better than a typical freshly capped pure, and she's impacted pretty hard by the update. If maneuver defense for characters are tuned up a bit across board, and the defense penalties from status such as stun/prone/injuries/whatever also gets toned down a little, it should resolve the issues most people have with this update while still keeping the original design goal intact.

[drumpel]

I think the update was just too overtuned in terms of maneuver defense. I saw Luxelle's build that she posted on the forums, she has 1x PF, 1x Perception, and 1x Dodge & .3x Combat Maneuvers with 5 ranks in Cdefense. Her maneuver defense should be already a good bit better than a typical freshly capped pure, and she's impacted pretty hard by the update. If maneuver defense for characters are tuned up a bit across board, and the defense penalties from status such as stun/prone/injuries/whatever also gets toned down a little, it should resolve the issues most people have with this update while still keeping the original design goal intact.

I love how Naijin thinks the loss of 15-20 points of SMR defense isn't a big deal and he thinks soft leather is a big deal for protection against the maneuvers.....scale armor is a big difference over soft leather based on my experience. Soft leather and robes, you might as well just lay down and die.

Testing with my forest gnome I found he lost 14-15 points of SMR defense with the nerf. Then if 2 creatures are in the room and FoF is in effect, his SMR defense drops by 4 or 5 points and if a third one is in the room and FoF is even more, he loses another 4-5 points.

He effectively went from about a 15% chance to be hit by SMR maneuvers before the change to 30%. Toss a couple of creatures to trigger FoF and now it can get to 40% or higher. Tried him in robes and full leather - the maneuvers decimate him regardless of cloth or soft leather armor.

[Dendum]

I love how Naijin thinks the loss of 15-20 points of SMR defense isn't a big deal and he thinks soft leather is a big deal for protection against the maneuvers.....scale armor is a big difference over soft leather based on my experience. Soft leather and robes, you might as well just lay down and die.

Testing with my forest gnome I found he lost 14-15 points of SMR defense with the nerf. Then if 2 creatures are in the room and FoF is in effect, his SMR defense drops by 4 or 5 points and if a third one is in the room and FoF is even more, he loses another 4-5 points.

He effectively went from about a 15% chance to be hit by SMR maneuvers before the change to 30%. Toss a couple of creatures to trigger FoF and now it can get to 40% or higher. Tried him in robes and full leather - the maneuvers decimate him regardless of cloth or soft leather armor.

Naajin hates gnomes. You probably just died because he added an extra % chance for gnomes to die.

[Methais]

Naajin hates everyone except his own Erithian warrior.

This is correct.

[Dendum]

This is correct.

I cant think of any thing he has touched that hasn't negatively relatively effected the smaller sized races. I have been reading his comments on the SRM changes trying to figure out how a particular thing became so borked and just see a general spreadsheet warrior dismissive attitude combined with a myopic view of whatever he is touching. He says he played a gnome, he is a Gancwajch gnome then. He just doesn't get it. We get hidden penalties on everything from pushing the capstan to opening random gates and door in the world to encumbrance but sure nerf the relative bonus we had compared to giantmen for CMAN and Cross Bows and it is all good.

The positive changes I have seen in the game that came from him is when he just fixes a system flat across the races and professions and doesn't try to balance things....his view on balancing things is well you got a little better so why be upset that you got relatively worse.

I am sure his attitude makes dealing with pure changes just as annoying.

[Gelston]

I cant think of any thing he has touched that hasn't negatively relatively effected the smaller sized races. I have been reading his comments on the SRM changes trying to figure out how a particular thing became so borked and just see a general spreadsheet warrior dismissive attitude combined with a myopic view of whatever he is touching. He says he played a gnome, he is a Gancwajch gnome then. He just doesn't get it. We get hidden penalties on everything from pushing the capstan to opening random gates and door in the world to encumbrance but sure nerf the relative bonus we had compared to giantmen for CMAN and Cross Bows and it is all good.

The positive changes I have seen in the game that came from him is when he just fixes a system flat across the races and professions and doesn't try to balance things....he can't balance things for shit.

I am sure his attitude makes dealing with pure changes just as annoying.

fuck gnomes

[bunnymustdie]

...scale armor is a big difference over soft leather based on my experience. Soft leather and robes, you might as well just lay down and die.


This is true. Scale (even partial) is the line where the new changes are annoying, but mostly within the realm of tolerable as far as game experience goes from my observation. I control my own characters with and hunt manually, and for me, being in soft leather/robes after these changes makes for a plain unfun experience. I guess soft leather/robes are probably still workable if you bigshot your characters, because then all you see is that you're now dying X% more, and that's all.

The changes are not that bad for my one character in plate, and I wonder if most of the internal testing done for the update was done mainly with a plate wearing character, that might explain a lot.

The annoyances of the PSM 2 update basically came about because they merged two different systems into one.

Before the change, you had the SMRv2 system, where you had a comparatively decent chances of dodging the attacks made through it. This was balanced by the big defense penalties applied to your character when you're stunned, prone, injured or whatever when you DO get hit, which made you vulnerable to follow up maneuvers. Fewer hits, but potential for big trouble when you are hit - this mostly worked fine for player experience, except for outliers like earthen fury (917), which is a series of SMRv2 attacks made to you in quick succession, where just being hit once means all the subsequent hits can be pretty nasty, and incidentally, is something very disliked by many players.

Before the change, the CML system had a high chance of hitting you in regards to skills you had no knowledge of. However most of these skills, such as sweep or hamstring, are pretty benign. Since the defense penalties from stuff like stuns or prone are comparatively lower in this system, being hit once by a CML does not make you crazy vulnerable to subsequent CML hits, and as such, you can tank your way through a CML hit better than the new SMRv2 versions of these skills. This system wasn't perfect either, since outliers like charge or occasionally shield bash results in very annoying one hit kills. Incidentally, if you had knowledge in a particular CML skill (maybe rank 3+), you can become basically immune to all but open roll attacks of that particular skill made against you.

The balance got out of whack after the PSM 2 update because numerous different factors got modified in the merge.

Stuff that was originally SMRv2 now have a bigger chance of hitting you, and yet the big penalties from negative status remains the same. It's a pure downgrade here.

Stuff that was originally CML that you had no knowledge of now hits less often, but now come with much bigger penalties from negative status and thus, gives you much greater vulnerability to subsequent maneuver attacks made against you after the first hit. Here, it's a wash if you manage to only solo critters, but is a downgrade if you're dealing with more than one creature in a room, which happens often in higher level areas, or if you just generally does not play very, very carefully. As a upside, Outlier CML like charge was improved to be less obnoxious for the player on the receiving end of them.

Stuff that was originally CML that you had knowledge in? Pretty much just a downgrade since you get hit more often on these now, on top of the new downsides from the CML => SMRv2 conversion mentioned above.

-------------------------
tl;dr

SMRv2 and CML each worked differently to contribute to a player's overall game experience. Certain things that are potentially obnoxious in SMRv2, such as the big defense penalties from being stunned/prone/whatever was balanced by being rare - because SMRv2 did not hit as often, and because a lot of maneuvers you saw were CMLs which did not come with similarly big penalties on negative status. The overall game balance and player experience degraded when the PSM 2 update came out because this balance was basically destroyed, since all CMLs were converted to SMRv2s, and all attacks that were originally SMRv2s now have a higher chance of hitting.

To put it a different way; you know how players hate being hit by earthen fury (917)? Because once you get hit by the first attack, all the subsequent hits in the cycle are gonna be pretty bad on account of the defense penalties? This update basically turned all maneuver attacks into a potential mini earthen fury scenario where just one hit will make you very vulnerable to other maneuver attacks that come after. On top of that, not all, but many of the maneuvers you encounter in your everyday hunting now have a higher chance to land that deadly first hit.

[Avaia]

This is true. Scale (even partial) is the line where the new changes are annoying, but mostly within the realm of tolerable as far as game experience goes from my observation. I control my own characters with and hunt manually, and for me, being in soft leather/robes after these changes makes for a plain unfun experience. I guess soft leather/robes are probably still workable if you bigshot your characters, because then all you see is that you're now dying X% more, and that's all.

The changes are not that bad for my one character in plate, and I wonder if most of the internal testing done for the update was done mainly with a plate wearing character, that might explain a lot.

The annoyances of the PSM 2 update basically came about because they merged two different systems into one.

Before the change, you had the SMRv2 system, where you had a comparatively decent chances of dodging the attacks made through it. This was balanced by the big defense penalties applied to your character when you're stunned, prone, injured or whatever when you DO get hit, which made you vulnerable to follow up maneuvers. Fewer hits, but potential for big trouble when you are hit - this mostly worked fine for player experience, except for outliers like earthen fury (917), which is a series of SMRv2 attacks made to you in quick succession, where just being hit once means all the subsequent hits can be pretty nasty, and incidentally, is something very disliked by many players.

Before the change, the CML system had a high chance of hitting you in regards to skills you had no knowledge of. However most of these skills, such as sweep or hamstring, are pretty benign. Since the defense penalties from stuff like stuns or prone are comparatively lower in this system, being hit once by a CML does not make you crazy vulnerable to subsequent CML hits, and as such, you can tank your way through a CML hit better than the new SMRv2 versions of these skills. This system wasn't perfect either, since outliers like charge or occasionally shield bash results in very annoying one hit kills. Incidentally, if you had knowledge in a particular CML skill (maybe rank 3+), you can become basically immune to all but open roll attacks of that particular skill made against you.

The balance got out of whack after the PSM 2 update because numerous different factors got modified in the merge.

Stuff that was originally SMRv2 now have a bigger chance of hitting you, and yet the big penalties from negative status remains the same. It's a pure downgrade here.

Stuff that was originally CML that you had no knowledge of now hits less often, but now come with much bigger penalties from negative status and thus, gives you much greater vulnerability to subsequent maneuver attacks made against you after the first hit. Here, it's a wash if you manage to only solo critters, but is a downgrade if you're dealing with more than one creature in a room, which happens often in higher level areas, or if you just generally does not play very, very carefully. As a upside, Outlier CML like charge was improved to be less obnoxious for the player on the receiving end of them.

Stuff that was originally CML that you had knowledge in? Pretty much just a downgrade since you get hit more often on these now, on top of the new downsides from the CML => SMRv2 conversion mentioned above.

-------------------------
tl;dr

SMRv2 and CML each worked differently to contribute to a player's overall game experience. Certain things that are potentially obnoxious in SMRv2, such as the big defense penalties from being stunned/prone/whatever was balanced by being rare - because SMRv2 did not hit as often, and because a lot of maneuvers you saw were CMLs which did not come with similarly big penalties on negative status. The overall game balance and player experience degraded when the PSM 2 update came out because this balance was basically destroyed, since all CMLs were converted to SMRv2s, and all attacks that were originally SMRv2s now have a higher chance of hitting.

To put it a different way; you know how players hate being hit by earthen fury (917)? Because once you get hit by the first attack, all the subsequent hits in the cycle are gonna be pretty bad on account of the defense penalties? This update basically turned all maneuver attacks into a potential mini earthen fury scenario where just one hit will make you very vulnerable to other maneuver attacks that come after. On top of that, not all, but many of the maneuvers you encounter in your everyday hunting now have a higher chance to land that deadly first hit.

You should copy/paste that onto the Officials thread about PSM.

[Skeletor]

This is true. Scale (even partial) is the line where the new changes are annoying, but mostly within the realm of tolerable as far as game experience goes from my observation. I control my own characters with and hunt manually, and for me, being in soft leather/robes after these changes makes for a plain unfun experience. I guess soft leather/robes are probably still workable if you bigshot your characters, because then all you see is that you're now dying X% more, and that's all.

The changes are not that bad for my one character in plate, and I wonder if most of the internal testing done for the update was done mainly with a plate wearing character, that might explain a lot.

The annoyances of the PSM 2 update basically came about because they merged two different systems into one.

Before the change, you had the SMRv2 system, where you had a comparatively decent chances of dodging the attacks made through it. This was balanced by the big defense penalties applied to your character when you're stunned, prone, injured or whatever when you DO get hit, which made you vulnerable to follow up maneuvers. Fewer hits, but potential for big trouble when you are hit - this mostly worked fine for player experience, except for outliers like earthen fury (917), which is a series of SMRv2 attacks made to you in quick succession, where just being hit once means all the subsequent hits can be pretty nasty, and incidentally, is something very disliked by many players.

Before the change, the CML system had a high chance of hitting you in regards to skills you had no knowledge of. However most of these skills, such as sweep or hamstring, are pretty benign. Since the defense penalties from stuff like stuns or prone are comparatively lower in this system, being hit once by a CML does not make you crazy vulnerable to subsequent CML hits, and as such, you can tank your way through a CML hit better than the new SMRv2 versions of these skills. This system wasn't perfect either, since outliers like charge or occasionally shield bash results in very annoying one hit kills. Incidentally, if you had knowledge in a particular CML skill (maybe rank 3+), you can become basically immune to all but open roll attacks of that particular skill made against you.

The balance got out of whack after the PSM 2 update because numerous different factors got modified in the merge.

Stuff that was originally SMRv2 now have a bigger chance of hitting you, and yet the big penalties from negative status remains the same. It's a pure downgrade here.

Stuff that was originally CML that you had no knowledge of now hits less often, but now come with much bigger penalties from negative status and thus, gives you much greater vulnerability to subsequent maneuver attacks made against you after the first hit. Here, it's a wash if you manage to only solo critters, but is a downgrade if you're dealing with more than one creature in a room, which happens often in higher level areas, or if you just generally does not play very, very carefully. As a upside, Outlier CML like charge was improved to be less obnoxious for the player on the receiving end of them.

Stuff that was originally CML that you had knowledge in? Pretty much just a downgrade since you get hit more often on these now, on top of the new downsides from the CML => SMRv2 conversion mentioned above.

-------------------------
tl;dr

SMRv2 and CML each worked differently to contribute to a player's overall game experience. Certain things that are potentially obnoxious in SMRv2, such as the big defense penalties from being stunned/prone/whatever was balanced by being rare - because SMRv2 did not hit as often, and because a lot of maneuvers you saw were CMLs which did not come with similarly big penalties on negative status. The overall game balance and player experience degraded when the PSM 2 update came out because this balance was basically destroyed, since all CMLs were converted to SMRv2s, and all attacks that were originally SMRv2s now have a higher chance of hitting.

To put it a different way; you know how players hate being hit by earthen fury (917)? Because once you get hit by the first attack, all the subsequent hits in the cycle are gonna be pretty bad on account of the defense penalties? This update basically turned all maneuver attacks into a potential mini earthen fury scenario where just one hit will make you very vulnerable to other maneuver attacks that come after. On top of that, not all, but many of the maneuvers you encounter in your everyday hunting now have a higher chance to land that deadly first hit.

Please don't waste a stellar response like this on these boards where Naijin or Estild will never read it. Please post on the official forums!

[Gelston]

Please don't waste a stellar response like this on these boards where Naijin or Estild will never read it. Please post on the official forums!

So they can ignore it over there too.

[SonoftheNorth]

Please don't waste a stellar response like this on these boards where Naijin or Estild will never read it. Please post on the official forums!

I'd bet money they read it, they just ignore it.

[bunnymustdie]

Please don't waste a stellar response like this on these boards where Naijin or Estild will never read it. Please post on the official forums!

Don't worry, they read stuff here. Whether it makes a difference is ┐(￣ヘ￣)┌

[Fortybox]

Here's a sneak peek at how an average hunting encounter will work in Naijinstone:

https://i.imgur.com/DtvdO42.png

:lol:

[Rinualdo]

For those interested, another update to. PSM3 was just released

[Skeletor]

For those interested, another update to. PSM3 was just released

Just rename the game WarriorStone, and make Erithians the masterace with small races as little keebler-elf slaves. I think that's what ultimately Naijin wants.

Also, holy shit, this game is gonna get complex!

[Neveragain]

So they can ignore it over there too.

Or just delete your response all together.

[SonoftheNorth]

Just rename the game WarriorStone, and make Erithians the masterace with small races as little keebler-elf slaves. I think that's what ultimately Naijin wants.

Also, holy shit, this game is gonna get complex!

Are you macguyver and do you even play? PSM3.0 isn't even good for warriors they are getting a cman point refund and a couple weapon skills that are going to suck worse than berserk or mstrike and people won't use them.
Show me what massive buffs warriors are getting in the doc please.

[Skeletor]

Are you macguyver and do you even play? PSM3.0 isn't even good for warriors they are getting a cman point refund and a couple weapon skills that are going to suck worse than berserk or mstrike and people won't use them.
Show me what massive buffs warriors are getting in the doc please.

Yes I'm mcguyver and yes warriors are getting a huge buff.

All weapons skills will scale with ranks as mentioned by Naijin specifically, pures won't even get weapon skills.
Also, I'm almost certain Berserk in post-cap will be exclusively used as a CC breaker stuns, webs so forth.

He's *trying* to move the game away from mindless spamming of a few select "gotcha" skills like berserk and mstrike and ambush head. For newer mobs and possibly even updated ones like bandits, using these old tactics will be at best inefficient (as Naijin cleary stated) or outright suicidal.

The BIG buff though is his changes to CMANs and how they work relative to defense. Everyone across the board is losing out on CMAN defense from semis to pures. Squares and especially the plate wearing variation are pretty much the last man standing in this arena. Coupled with a warrior's redux/MoC they'll be the only profession with possibly monks that could take on multiple targets spamming cmans in a room.

I understand CMAN defense was PSM 2.0 but remember every CMAN change and new weapon skills you see in PSM 3.0 will be fair game for critters. In my opinion he's trying to backdoor buff the Warrior, by effectively making every other profession anemically weak versus CMANs which is how I believe will account for 98% of all deaths either directly or indirectly in the game going forward.

Warriors are getting a buff, he just can't be ,"ZOMG here you go guys you all get +1000 AS!" Watch, after all this goes Live and with that new warrior service to weight weapons, Warriors will be one of the higher if not the highest valued characters in the game.

[SonoftheNorth]

Yes I'm mcguyver
This is about the only true statement you made here.

He also just took away the HP bonus from plate specialization (how many warriors aren't going to wear plate? 1 fringe build might do chain) and he just took HALF of the bonus from the two-handed weapon skills effect buff.

Why would pures get weapon skills they are the most overpowered class type in the game and the point of PSM was to BRING SQUARES UP TO THEIR POWER LEVEL?

Berserk is already mostly just used to break stuns and webs because you lose control of your character, you also need to active it which takes time and stamina, which the cost of feint just got increased and they nerfed stamina regen.

Yes, he is trying to move the game away from berserk mstrike and ambush head, how is that a buff for warriors?

No you are wrong, semis and pures now have MORE OPTIONS TO DEFEND AGAINST CMANS AND MOST PURE FAVORED RACES INCREASED CHANCE TO DODGE THEM. Previously it was their weakness you chose when you picked that class, just like warriors are extremely weak against magical attacks.

Other classes aren't weak against cmans though, most of them have stun breaks, mage armor, haste mechanics, etc manuevers account for 98% of pure deaths BECAUSE THEY CANNOT BE HIT WITH THEIR MASSIVE DS AND TD OTHERWISE.

Warriors are getting a point refund to spend on some cosmetic flavor cmans that will be competing with mstrike berserk and their weaponskills for stamina.


Warrior service is limited to 2 points per week (so 8 max and it will have difficulty just like other services so I wouldn't plan slapping them on claidhs) and will most likely be way less valued than enchanting or ensorcelling is NOT BEING RELEASED WITH PSM3.0

[Skeletor]

This is about the only true statement you made here.

He also just took away the HP bonus from plate specialization (how many warriors aren't going to wear plate? 1 fringe build might do chain) and he just took HALF of the bonus from the two-handed weapon skills effect buff.

Why would pures get weapon skills they are the most overpowered class type in the game and the point of PSM was to BRING SQUARES UP TO THEIR POWER LEVEL?

Berserk is already mostly just used to break stuns and webs because you lose control of your character, you also need to active it which takes time and stamina, which the cost of feint just got increased and they nerfed stamina regen.

Yes, he is trying to move the game away from berserk mstrike and ambush head, how is that a buff for warriors?

No you are wrong, semis and pures now have MORE OPTIONS TO DEFEND AGAINST CMANS AND MOST PURE FAVORED RACES INCREASED CHANCE TO DODGE THEM. Previously it was their weakness you chose when you picked that class, just like warriors are extremely weak against magical attacks.

Other classes aren't weak against cmans though, most of them have stun breaks, mage armor, haste mechanics, etc manuevers account for 98% of pure deaths BECAUSE THEY CANNOT BE HIT WITH THEIR MASSIVE DS AND TD OTHERWISE.

Warriors are getting a point refund to spend on some cosmetic flavor cmans that will be competing with mstrike berserk and their weaponskills for stamina.


Warrior service is limited to 2 points per week (so 8 max and it will have difficulty just like other services so I wouldn't plan slapping them on claidhs) and will most likely be way less valued than enchanting or ensorcelling is NOT BEING RELEASED WITH PSM3.0

I think you're baiting me, or you don't play a warrior, or you're bored or all three.

None of these statements are really arguments. But for funsies I'll go through them.

Plate HP bonus: Riiiiight. Because what warriors needed is more HP on top of the 5000 other ways you can get HP. Also, if you actually keep up on discord he's applying a different benefit ("because extra HP seems too bland.")

duration on a weapon skill that hasn't even been finalized or come out yet and is still being changed every day and really have no idea how it'll play in the field: so you do realize they just re-did the entirety of edged weapon skills just last night. Naijin, is flying by the seat of his pants. He's literally making this shit up on the fly. Numbers? lol, by the time he and Estild are done that original document is going to have 7276277 rewrites.

Berserk: Being one of the few CC breakers and up there with Palawin's Cheesefest 1635, will become even more valuable with 9,000 new status effects coming down the pipe with PSM3.

Stam nerf: Sure, and they cut stamina costs across the board and buffed the majority of the existing stam based abilities. Noone really complained about this one but you.

Pures Semis & cmans: OK so I see you don't play pures. They got shafted hard dude. Like this isn't even a conversation any more. He went way too far to the otherside and now many pures and semis literally cannot hunt some hunting grounds.

Warrior service: You're going to be the only class to crit weight weapons regularly as a player, -the- crown jewel of weapon enhancements will be the exclusive domain of warriors. Stop. Fucking. Larping.

https://i.imgflip.com/57uuxb.gif

[audioserf]

Son of the North has a capped warrior and a capped wizard and you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, and you have deliberately evaded answering whether or not you actually play GS or if you just like to shitpost hyperbole and conjecture about it

[SonoftheNorth]

Son of the North has a capped warrior and a capped wizard and you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, and you have deliberately evaded answering whether or not you actually play GS or if you just like to shitpost hyperbole and conjecture about it

It's macgyver he got banned in 1997 and vaguely keeps up with GS but has no idea what the fuck he's talking about.

[audioserf]

It's macgyver he got banned in 1997 and vaguely keeps up with GS but has no idea what the fuck he's talking about.

Really does have big macgyver energy

[Taernath]

I thought Skeletor being macguyver was common knowledge.

[SonoftheNorth]

I thought Skeletor being macguyver was common knowledge.

Yeah now that I think about it, the profit fits the template he makes for all his other new accounts when he comes back. I think he got permabanned in the 90s or something and is so mentally ill he just haunts the board reading other peoples posts for game info to make his own posts like he still plays but it's basically engrish.

[Methais]

This is about the only true statement you made here.

He also just took away the HP bonus from plate specialization (how many warriors aren't going to wear plate? 1 fringe build might do chain) and he just took HALF of the bonus from the two-handed weapon skills effect buff.

Why would pures get weapon skills they are the most overpowered class type in the game and the point of PSM was to BRING SQUARES UP TO THEIR POWER LEVEL?

Berserk is already mostly just used to break stuns and webs because you lose control of your character, you also need to active it which takes time and stamina, which the cost of feint just got increased and they nerfed stamina regen.

Yes, he is trying to move the game away from berserk mstrike and ambush head, how is that a buff for warriors?

No you are wrong, semis and pures now have MORE OPTIONS TO DEFEND AGAINST CMANS AND MOST PURE FAVORED RACES INCREASED CHANCE TO DODGE THEM. Previously it was their weakness you chose when you picked that class, just like warriors are extremely weak against magical attacks.

Other classes aren't weak against cmans though, most of them have stun breaks, mage armor, haste mechanics, etc manuevers account for 98% of pure deaths BECAUSE THEY CANNOT BE HIT WITH THEIR MASSIVE DS AND TD OTHERWISE.

Warriors are getting a point refund to spend on some cosmetic flavor cmans that will be competing with mstrike berserk and their weaponskills for stamina.


Warrior service is limited to 2 points per week (so 8 max and it will have difficulty just like other services so I wouldn't plan slapping them on claidhs) and will most likely be way less valued than enchanting or ensorcelling is NOT BEING RELEASED WITH PSM3.0

Naijin hasn't gotten around to directly nerfing pures (and probably semis) yet. But it's coming.

[SonoftheNorth]

Naijin hasn't gotten around to directly nerfing pures (and probably semis) yet. But it's coming.

Yeah it's gonna require a group of 6 people to hunt sometime in the future with the way the game is trending.

[Skeletor]

Yeah now that I think about it, the profit fits the template he makes for all his other new accounts when he comes back. I think he got permabanned in the 90s or something and is so mentally ill he just haunts the board reading other peoples posts for game info to make his own posts like he still plays but it's basically engrish.

Yet not a single coherent reply just rage.

Anyway at the very least I seem to be more knowledgeable as you missed some of the finer points of what Naijin said. (check out Discord)

You post in caps because you can't express yourself without being emotional and getting angry but you revealed a bit about yourself so I'm grateful for that. How's my 'engrish' again? Racist piece of shit. thai/cambodian btw so yeah that was pretty offensive.

You fuck with a lot of asians where you live you piece of shit? I bet you do.

[SonoftheNorth]

Racist piece of shit. thai/cambodian btw so yeah that was pretty offensive.

You fuck with a lot of asians where you live you piece of shit? I bet you do.

No you aren't