DS drop due to changes?

[Tumbadoo]

Am I the only one noticing a noticeable drop in DS for pole users. I feel like we are being forced into using shields. Is it just me - thoughts?

[Skeletor]

Am I the only one noticing a noticeable drop in DS for pole users. I feel like we are being forced into using shields. Is it just me - thoughts?

Yes and no. Pole users lose guard the meek’s +DS but you gained it back by Zealot not giving negative bonuses. Unless you’re far post-cap or you’re not using zealot...

...

just use shields.

[Tumbadoo]

I'm at about 12m exp and I was able to produce enough self-spelled defense to hunt without issue (no zealot). That has changed for sure.

[Menos]

You can get some of that DS back by running 1609. The relative change should be pretty small.

[beldar17]

If you want to use the new 1618 fun stuff, you lose defense and attack. Changes are not my cup of tea.

[Skeletor]

You guys (paladins) were soft on Viduus. I heard the rangers had a coordinated emailing campaign to get what they want from Mestys. Ha!

[Sorcasaurus]

102 + 1617 is still a net gain in both AS and DS, always an option. You can still run 1609 for the DS buff, or you can stance dance. Were you previously not using either between 1609 or 1617? If so, you didn't actually lose anything, you just run 1609 and should be at the same DS.

1609 is the only shield specific spell buff, and it's the aura geared toward defending. I don't see a conceptual issue personally.

[beldar17]

Did you just say to put salt on the shit and it wont be so bad? That is what I heard.

[Tumbadoo]

what about cman's what are folks rolling with after the changes?

[Skeletor]

If you throw in the -25 CS due to loss of Champion, I actually think capped Paladins got a bit of a nerf. Was that intended? I don’t follow Paladin news too closely.

[dszabo]

The -10 MTP cost for our spells more than made up for the loss of Champion's Might. The only people that caught any sort of a nerf are the ones that are so far post cap that they already had 2x spells.

[Skeletor]

The -10 MTP cost for our spells more than made up for the loss of Champion's Might. The only people that caught any sort of a nerf are the ones that are so far post cap that they already had 2x spells.

nah man some of these spells are really lackluster especially comparing it to what rangers got.

[dszabo]

Expound on the lackluster spells if you don't mind. I'm not being snarky, I just haven't seen the downside to any of the ones I use (yet) and would like to know what to look for.

The ones I use, 1608, 1612, zealot, and 1615 (and even 1603 if I want a setup spell) are all a pretty big boost. 20 less armor ranks required, being able to cast spirit spells on a hunt, and cutting my hinderance by 60% from 8% to less than 2% or whatever it is now. I lost 25 CS from champions might, but I gained at least 20 spell ranks which directly translates to 20 CS and the other 5 CS that I am still missing will eventually be made up by the time I cap (from additional spell ranks). And even if I have 5 less CS than I did, my hinderance is now 6% lower than it was so I'm still +1 on spell rolls.

And being able to infuse many charges of 1603 in your weapon sure beats the heck out of 1602.

[Taernath]

Is there a list of the changes? Wiki isn't updated and all I know is I went to 1603 before a spellup like usual and couldn't.

edit: nm they are here
https://gswiki.play.net/Paladin_Base/saved_posts

[beldar17]

What is hard to digest? If you use 1617, you now have less defense and less CS

If you use 1618, you now have less defense, less CS, and less attack.

Everyone who says otherwise, plays other classes and are just trolls. BAT. Bitch ass trolls.

[Skeletor]

What is hard to digest? If you use 1617, you now have less defense and less CS

If you use 1618, you now have less defense, less CS, and less attack.

Everyone who says otherwise, plays other classes and are just trolls. BAT. Bitch ass trolls.

Got to go bitch ass shield. And now you get..

https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-11-2017/aLLDZt.gif

[Sorcasaurus]

What is hard to digest? If you use 1617, you now have less defense and less CS

If you use 1618, you now have less defense, less CS, and less attack.

Everyone who says otherwise, plays other classes and are just trolls. BAT. Bitch ass trolls.

if you go 1617 you no longer have a DS debuff, cancelling out what you would have received from guard the meek anyway. That's the same. If you use 1618, it's for casting or grouping where you aren't required to be in offensive. If you use 1609 you have the same DS as before. The only scenario resulting in less DS is if you ran 1617 before the change and had more than 66 ranks of religion lore. At 66 ranks you are -1 DS, up to an enormous -9 DS with 190 ranks religion lore. In exchange for that massive DS loss, you can now change stances while running it, which seems like a win to me.


Less CS, yes. You also have more TPs. The way it mathed out, all the gained TPs could be used to mitigate the loss of 1612's +25 CS, netting neutral or better at cap. You also can save 20 armor use ranks for more TPs if you choose because of the new 1612.

Do you play a paladin? Have you actually looked at the changes or did you log in, type ;bigshot and notice your numbers were different?

I

[chowell]

My $.02

As a capped paladin, I'm liking the changes and find they give more flexibility and capability to paladins. The ONLY negative I see is the hit to the CS.. which I personally view spells 1614, 1615, 1630 as a nicety not a necessity anyway. Even hunting the scatter I can do just fine without ever casting a spell.

The positives is that we can can now use 1617 with the ability to move defense--with 102 added you have added AS and DS. OR you can use 1609 to keep a similar DS we had with 1613, regardless if you use shield or not. 1618 before was marginal benefit, so no real change there IMHO. Additionally, I think its VERY beneficial to now be able to access Minor Spiritual spells with spell hindrance changes of 1612; this allows effective use of 117 which is huge. Someone already mentioned use of infusing 1603 which is a decent addition.. consecrate flares with any weighted weapons.. potential for new spell at 1620. Seems pretty solid plus for paladins to me.

[beldar17]

you think like sorca. Literally everything he says is wrong unless you are a bitchass paladin.

[Sorcasaurus]

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/11445541.jpg

[Shaps]

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/11445541.jpg

Sorry the number you are trying to reach has been disconnected.

[Shaps]

As for the DS drop - I'm noticing a 20DS difference between running 1609 and 1617.

[time4fun]

Not noticing any DS drop, but I used my TPs to up dodge by quite a bit.

I still have Champion's Might and Guard the Meek up though. So we'll see how I feel after those wear off.

[Menos]

if you go 1617 you no longer have a DS debuff, cancelling out what you would have received from guard the meek anyway. That's the same. If you use 1618, it's for casting or grouping where you aren't required to be in offensive. If you use 1609 you have the same DS as before. The only scenario resulting in less DS is if you ran 1617 before the change and had more than 66 ranks of religion lore. At 66 ranks you are -1 DS, up to an enormous -9 DS with 190 ranks religion lore. In exchange for that massive DS loss, you can now change stances while running it, which seems like a win to me.


Less CS, yes. You also have more TPs. The way it mathed out, all the gained TPs could be used to mitigate the loss of 1612's +25 CS, netting neutral or better at cap. You also can save 20 armor use ranks for more TPs if you choose because of the new 1612.

Do you play a paladin? Have you actually looked at the changes or did you log in, type ;bigshot and notice your numbers were different?

I

That is only partly accurate. The training points to casting strength breakeven point is somewhere around level 80 to 100. Lower levels and Post Cap will suffer some loss, although it is open to debate whether or not those lost points are significant.

With zealot, in addition to the potential loss of some ds on religion lore heavy builds, hunting partners can no longer have the ds boost while the paladin zealots. That used to be possible through evoke or fiddling with the order you join the group.

personally I find it very difficult to determine what I think of the changes at the moment. I am still very unhappy with the loss of 1612 and it is very difficult to test the replacement infuse bonus because the main spell I would be using is currently turned off in terms of damage (1603). The only things that are very clear to me is that the new 1608 is a very effective tanking method which I consider a complete win, and the single biggest increase to my personal hunting power was unrelated to the paladin updates (aoe changes).

Edit to add that it is additionally difficult to judge because the main new features are still not available at all. Those being Divine inspiration, strike, and smite.

[Shaps]

Agreed Menos. It's taking a bit of getting used to, but I think? the changes are good overall. It "feels" like something needs a slight tweak, but not sure what yet.

1603 - Happily surprised by this honestly. Getting some good results for low mana. Not sure if worth a 3 sec cast over 1615/1630 though. Perhaps if was an AOE version like 1602 (based on lores) would be a reasonable addition?

1604 - Love this for my shield.

1608 - Love it.

1609/1617/1618 - Liking these changes. I use OHE/Shield though, so like the swaps back and forth as needed on hunting grounds. With more lore and 102 usage could see more 1617 incorporated perhaps.

1611 - Great change. Saw AS go up 8-9? points I think overall. Plus for the maneuver/aiming benefits feels good.

1612 - Amazing. Still no idea which armor spec to now use though.

1613 - Amazing.

1615/1630 - Amazing. Not sure why SMC is the lethality portion of this as opposed to lores? Seems odd to me.

1625 - Amazing.

1620 - Hoping they put something class defining in this slot. One of the armor/weapon enhancements similar to enchant/ensorcell/etc.

[Menos]

Shaps, it does seem to be generally more a clear improvement for shield users, which I'm mostly okay with. The current state of 1603 when infused is complete trash though. I have no idea why it's using a different damage calculation than the cast version. Viduus said the spell was tuned down for now while they decide on its final damage, but I feel like both versions should be the same even so.

[Shaps]

Shaps, it does seem to be generally more a clear improvement for shield users, which I'm mostly okay with. The current state of 1603 when infused is complete trash though. I have no idea why it's using a different damage calculation than the cast version. Viduus said the spell was tuned down for now while they decide on its final damage, but I feel like both versions should be the same even so.

No disagreement there. If they're still looking at it, hopefully they fix the damage, and add an AOE effect similar to 1602.

[Menos]

Even more than an AOE effect, I would love to see a version that has a bit more damage and not the useless at high level debuff and rebounding effects.

[Sorcasaurus]

That is only partly accurate. The training points to casting strength breakeven point is somewhere around level 80 to 100. Lower levels and Post Cap will suffer some loss, although it is open to debate whether or not those lost points are significant.

With zealot, in addition to the potential loss of some ds on religion lore heavy builds, hunting partners can no longer have the ds boost while the paladin zealots. That used to be possible through evoke or fiddling with the order you join the group.

personally I find it very difficult to determine what I think of the changes at the moment. I am still very unhappy with the loss of 1612 and it is very difficult to test the replacement infuse bonus because the main spell I would be using is currently turned off in terms of damage (1603). The only things that are very clear to me is that the new 1608 is a very effective tanking method which I consider a complete win, and the single biggest increase to my personal hunting power was unrelated to the paladin updates (aoe changes).

Edit to add that it is additionally difficult to judge because the main new features are still not available at all. Those being Divine inspiration, strike, and smite.

Fair, the group utility of providing 20 DS AND having personal zealot up was lost. They would now get Zealot bonus without the DS loss, which is useless for casters or ranged but not a terrible pick up for melee. Your personal AS/DS in that scenario will have gotten better until the religion lore threshold is reached, and it seems to be limited in impact to very post cap folk.

The warding margins while leveling still seems fine to me if you 1x spells. I only tested 40's, 60's and cap so it's a small sample size. If you want to say there are fringe cases it's a loss, i can't argue the number is smaller for specific instances. Overall, it's not much of a change. In the very far post cap area, until ascension hunting grounds are release is there anything you can't ward?

I was only speaking to the AS/DS comparison from before/after the changes. There's still more to be tweaked and implemented.

[Airemet]

I would like 1603 to be useful at post-cap. I think a DoT affect or damage over time would be great instead of a massive single damage boost. I second this having a AoE effect.

Also for those of you on the fence about these changes, the Paladin spell changes were a side dish compared to the main event which were the smite, strike, DI stuff, the stuff that made everyone go ZOMG Palawin!!!?!!111

-Menos,

Don’t understand why did the AoE changes boost your hunting power? It seemed like a general nerf to me?

[Skeletor]

I would like 1603 to be useful at post-cap. I think a DoT affect or damage over time would be great instead of a massive single damage boost. I second this having a AoE effect.

Also for those of you on the fence about these changes, the Paladin spell changes were a side dish compared to the main event which were the smite, strike, DI stuff, the stuff that made everyone go ZOMG Palawin!!!?!!111

-Menos,

Don’t understand why did the AoE changes boost your hunting power? It seemed like a general nerf to me?

The new verbs may not be happening actually. If you go back to the official proposal way back when, Viduus stealth-removed the smite/strike/DI system from the original proposal.

He claims it’s because he’s trying to be happy with the damage for it, along with Templar’s(1603) but if I were to take a wild guess as to what’s happening behind-the-scenes I think he’s getting a shit ton of pushback from the other GMs and Estild about all these huge changes a.k.a it’s too powerful.

[Menos]

-Menos,

Don’t understand why did the AoE changes boost your hunting power? It seemed like a general nerf to me?

The changes were big boost because I avoided casting 1630 under circumstances which I might randomly kill people. Given my training that meant I couldn't cast it unless there were seven or eight creatures in the room. Now I can use it with reckless abandon on smaller swarms and also bandits. I did not even lose a total Target number because the maximum under the old system is the same as the new maximum for paladins.

[Menos]

The new verbs may not be happening actually. If you go back to the official proposal way back when, Viduus stealth-removed the smite/strike/DI system from the original proposal.

He claims it’s because he’s trying to be happy with the damage for it, along with Templar’s(1603) but if I were to take a wild guess as to what’s happening behind-the-scenes I think he’s getting a shit ton of pushback from the other GMs and Estild about all these huge changes a.k.a it’s too powerful.

I sincerely hope that is not the case. To my mind it is the part of the proposal that addressed the giant gaping hole that is a profession identity for paladins. I have no inside scoop that suggests you're wrong, just my own hopes.

Just an edit to add that would be kind of an insult to paladins to carve away a big chunk of their proposal considering how strong and total the ranger updates were.

[beldar17]

all the rangers are happy. must be nice

[Airemet]

The new verbs may not be happening actually. If you go back to the official proposal way back when, Viduus stealth-removed the smite/strike/DI system from the original proposal.

He claims it’s because he’s trying to be happy with the damage for it, along with Templar’s(1603) but if I were to take a wild guess as to what’s happening behind-the-scenes I think he’s getting a shit ton of pushback from the other GMs and Estild about all these huge changes a.k.a it’s too powerful.

Yikes! You’re right, I just checked, all the stuff about the new smite strike verbiage is gone.

Well, that sucks. :(

[Menos]

Yikes! You’re right, I just checked, all the stuff about the new smite strike verbiage is gone.

Well, that sucks. :(

Certainly disconcerting. The release post said that things not making it in this round we're still in the works, at least.

[time4fun]

I sincerely hope that is not the case. To my mind it is the part of the proposal that addressed the giant gaping hole that is a profession identity for paladins. I have no inside scoop that suggests you're wrong, just my own hopes.

Just an edit to add that would be kind of an insult to paladins to carve away a big chunk of their proposal considering how strong and total the ranger updates were.

Yeah this would make me sad. These were two things I was most excited about because of their potential to make combat so much more dynamic

Does the updated version of that doc now match the announcement post? I wouldn't be surprised if V just created a private copy of the original doc and then changed the original one to draft the announcement post.

[time4fun]

Shaps, it does seem to be generally more a clear improvement for shield users, which I'm mostly okay with. The current state of 1603 when infused is complete trash though. I have no idea why it's using a different damage calculation than the cast version. Viduus said the spell was tuned down for now while they decide on its final damage, but I feel like both versions should be the same even so.

The funny thing is, I never had any problems with the infused version of 1603 on the test server.

I wonder what changed in the code. It seems pretty clear it's a bug.

[Sorcasaurus]

The funny thing is, I never had any problems with the infused version of 1603 on the test server.

I wonder what changed in the code. It seems pretty clear it's a bug.

Viduus commented that it's down tweaked and they are collecting data before settling on where it should be turned back up to.

My guess is they want to get data on warding margins and scale damage where they want it based on that info. With the loss of 1612 and TP adjustments, they have an expectation for warding margins but no live data. Compare live vs expectated and scale damage to where they want it.

[time4fun]

Viduus commented that it's down tweaked and they are collecting data before settling on where it should be turned back up to.

My guess is they want to get data on warding margins and scale damage where they want it based on that info. With the loss of 1612 and TP adjustments, they have an expectation for warding margins but no live data. Compare live vs expectated and scale damage to where they want it.

Makes sense.

I just dropped 1612 and went hunting. I have 80 Paladin spell ranks, but I now have like a 1/3 chance of warding Champions (down from about 52% before) and can no longer ward a Seer 100% of the time.

It's unfortunate. It makes me a lot less likely to hunt with 1603, 1615, and 1630

[Donquix]

I don't know where you're getting it's "too good" for the smite/strike stuff. I'm guessing it's removed from the recent post, and the doc, so people reading over the new changes aren't confused because they weren't released yet. The vast majority of players don't know anything changed until they log in and it works differently, they aren't reading a fucking thing here/discord/boards. It's still in the original forum post itself about releasing to test.

As recently as like last week viduus was talking about the smite stuff and the takeaway was it wasn't good enough yet (specifically DI)

[loxe]

the changes took quite a bit of playing around on the test server, but for my character I finally came up with a setup that I am enjoying very much and feel like I'm much more rounded out and versatile combat wise.

[Ibidmb]

So, my paladin is 59, prior to the changes, I was able to hunt illoke and mastiffs no problem, and I could just 1615, then ambush the head. Now, I can't ward for shit with my current training plan.

I have noted a slight raise in my AS, with Voln signs I could get it to about 415 before, now it's sitting at about 425-435, and 461 with my encorc. flare. Not sure what happened there for the boost.

I don't like the infused version of 1603, simply for the fact that during my hunts, I have to continually beseech my weapon. I put my weapon away to skin, and then when I get it back out, it's turned off. Not sure if it's a bug, or if it's always like that. I never use to infuse it because 1602 to me has always been pretty blah.

My biggest thing is, with the TP changes, I can drop my lores from 25 ranks in religion for the old 1615 benefits, and I can pick up about 7-8ish spell ranks. But to be able to ward what I want to hunt I need to 1x spells.

Before the change, I was 40 ranks in paladin, and 20 in MnS. Now, I need to get up to 1x in paladin spells, and I have to drop my MnS spells to meet the difference.


Is paying 340 MTP's worth it for like, 10 ranks in MnS, or should I just overtrain in paladin spells?


I won't pick up lores until they finish tweaking the new spells.
Also, sorry if I rambled.

[Airemet]

So, my paladin is 59, prior to the changes, I was able to hunt illoke and mastiffs no problem, and I could just 1615, then ambush the head. Now, I can't ward for shit with my current training plan.

I have noted a slight raise in my AS, with Voln signs I could get it to about 415 before, now it's sitting at about 425-435, and 461 with my encorc. flare. Not sure what happened there for the boost.

I don't like the infused version of 1603, simply for the fact that during my hunts, I have to continually beseech my weapon. I put my weapon away to skin, and then when I get it back out, it's turned off. Not sure if it's a bug, or if it's always like that. I never use to infuse it because 1602 to me has always been pretty blah.

My biggest thing is, with the TP changes, I can drop my lores from 25 ranks in religion for the old 1615 benefits, and I can pick up about 7-8ish spell ranks. But to be able to ward what I want to hunt I need to 1x spells.

Before the change, I was 40 ranks in paladin, and 20 in MnS. Now, I need to get up to 1x in paladin spells, and I have to drop my MnS spells to meet the difference.


Is paying 340 MTP's worth it for like, 10 ranks in MnS, or should I just overtrain in paladin spells?


I won't pick up lores until they finish tweaking the new spells.
Also, sorry if I rambled.

I would just wait.

Templars is going to be our meat and potatoes spell for a lot of builds and it’s only half finished.