Ashes of Creation

[Gizmo]

I’m curious, has anyone here went ahead and backed/purchase any of their bundles?

More so the big daddy $375 one?

[Taernath]

It sounds interesting, but also like they're trying to be everything to everyone. I doubt they'll be able to do half the things they promised, let alone do them well. Also sounds like a very group-and-PvP-focused game where you need to be in a large guild to really do anything and streamer armies will control servers.

[Alashir]

It sounds interesting, but also like they're trying to be everything to everyone. I doubt they'll be able to do half the things they promised, let alone do them well. Also sounds like a very group-and-PvP-focused game where you need to be in a large guild to really do anything and streamer armies will control servers.

Can't be worse than star citizen

[Elgrim]

Another battle royale game? Do we need another?

[Methais]

Another battle royale game? Do we need another?

It's an MMO. And if they can actually pull off the shit they've been talking about, it'll be pretty insane.

[Teveriel]

The promises they're making remind me of Archeage, which turned out to be shit, and EQNext, which was scrapped. But I like that it sounds like a fairly grounded PVP-focused experience, at least. Meanwhile, I've been eyeing this one, but it's been in development for quite a long time.

https://crowfall.com/en-US/index.html

[Gizmo]

The promises they're making remind me of Archeage, which turned out to be shit, and EQNext, which was scrapped. But I like that it sounds like a fairly grounded PVP-focused experience, at least. Meanwhile, I've been eyeing this one, but it's been in development for quite a long time.

https://crowfall.com/en-US/index.html

Meh

[Taernath]

The promises they're making remind me of Archeage, which turned out to be shit, and EQNext, which was scrapped. But I like that it sounds like a fairly grounded PVP-focused experience, at least.

It kinda reminds me of EVE + one of those older MMOs with keep sieging... DAoC maybe? So much of it sounds like a nightmare to balance though. I read somewhere you'll have a class with multiple subclasses, and all told there are like 64 different combinations. I think it was Aion that tried that and wound up patching it out after a couple years.

I'm not sure how well a pvp-focused MMO will do these days, people say they want one but very few make it. EVE is probably the last holdout.

[Ashlander]

It kinda reminds me of EVE + one of those older MMOs with keep sieging... DAoC maybe? So much of it sounds like a nightmare to balance though. I read somewhere you'll have a class with multiple subclasses, and all told there are like 64 different combinations. I think it was Aion that tried that and wound up patching it out after a couple years.

I'm not sure how well a pvp-focused MMO will do these days, people say they want one but very few make it. EVE is probably the last holdout.

Rift did the multiple subclass thing fairly well if I remember correctly.

[Maerit]

MMORPG players are whiny carebears. They can't handle getting griefed, so they complain about getting protection from "gankers" and then the RPG gets dumbed down. Eventually you get PvE and PvP servers, where the PvP servers lose population until they die off, or PvP only instances which become unpopular while the majority of your players are grinding gear and levels.

Saw it happen in like 4 MMOs including WoW.

The fist time I witnessed this happen was in Ultima Online. They started with a notoriety system, and full corpse looting. Then you could become a "Dark Lord" and that was the full evil side or a "Grand Lord" which was the full good notoriety. Eventually they made it so those with low notoriety couldn't enter cities other than the outlaw town, which resulted in all the PvP players griefing each other in their only hideout. Then players just resorted to hiding their loot in player housing, and griefiing players inside instances. This got further nerfed to support the "carebears" by making those who performed hostile actions marked as "safe to kill", so anyone could hunt them for a period of time until their hostile action wore off (which it would be turned on permanently for murderers). Which then caused players to turn to exploiting systems like thieving to steal loot instead of killing players.

Eventually UO made it an incredibly hard chore to be a player killer.

Then it happened in WoW when they had PvP servers where you could kill the other faction. That got nerfed continually until it was no longer worth it, and most of the player migrated to the PvE servers.

Saw it happen in Age of Conan, a game designed around PvP combat. So many players complained that they couldn't level effectively because higher level players were ganking them in the leveling zones "for fun", and so they were raging. PvE servers were created. The majority of the population moved. Then the game died because of reasons both related and unrelated to PvP. Conan had an extremely fun and engaging siege system if you could get enough players on voice chat and organize the raiding of player owned keeps.

In the end, MMORPGs designed around PvP do tend to fail or change so much from the original vision that they're unrecognizable. Seems like everyone has a hero complex, and cannot stand a world where a person could play a villain.

[Teveriel]

MMORPG players are whiny carebears. They can't handle getting griefed, so they complain about getting protection from "gankers" and then the RPG gets dumbed down. Eventually you get PvE and PvP servers, where the PvP servers lose population until they die off, or PvP only instances which become unpopular while the majority of your players are grinding gear and levels.

Saw it happen in like 4 MMOs including WoW.

The fist time I witnessed this happen was in Ultima Online. They started with a notoriety system, and full corpse looting. Then you could become a "Dark Lord" and that was the full evil side or a "Grand Lord" which was the full good notoriety. Eventually they made it so those with low notoriety couldn't enter cities other than the outlaw town, which resulted in all the PvP players griefing each other in their only hideout. Then players just resorted to hiding their loot in player housing, and griefiing players inside instances. This got further nerfed to support the "carebears" by making those who performed hostile actions marked as "safe to kill", so anyone could hunt them for a period of time until their hostile action wore off (which it would be turned on permanently for murderers). Which then caused players to turn to exploiting systems like thieving to steal loot instead of killing players.

Eventually UO made it an incredibly hard chore to be a player killer.

Then it happened in WoW when they had PvP servers where you could kill the other faction. That got nerfed continually until it was no longer worth it, and most of the player migrated to the PvE servers.

Saw it happen in Age of Conan, a game designed around PvP combat. So many players complained that they couldn't level effectively because higher level players were ganking them in the leveling zones "for fun", and so they were raging. PvE servers were created. The majority of the population moved. Then the game died because of reasons both related and unrelated to PvP. Conan had an extremely fun and engaging siege system if you could get enough players on voice chat and organize the raiding of player owned keeps.

In the end, MMORPGs designed around PvP do tend to fail or change so much from the original vision that they're unrecognizable. Seems like everyone has a hero complex, and cannot stand a world where a person could play a villain.

That's a good point. I'm reminded of Warhammer Online. It had a lot of good ideas, but its emphasis on PVP was a death sentence in this market.

[Methais]

MMORPG players are whiny carebears. They can't handle getting griefed, so they complain about getting protection from "gankers" and then the RPG gets dumbed down. Eventually you get PvE and PvP servers, where the PvP servers lose population until they die off, or PvP only instances which become unpopular while the majority of your players are grinding gear and levels.

Saw it happen in like 4 MMOs including WoW.

The fist time I witnessed this happen was in Ultima Online. They started with a notoriety system, and full corpse looting. Then you could become a "Dark Lord" and that was the full evil side or a "Grand Lord" which was the full good notoriety. Eventually they made it so those with low notoriety couldn't enter cities other than the outlaw town, which resulted in all the PvP players griefing each other in their only hideout. Then players just resorted to hiding their loot in player housing, and griefiing players inside instances. This got further nerfed to support the "carebears" by making those who performed hostile actions marked as "safe to kill", so anyone could hunt them for a period of time until their hostile action wore off (which it would be turned on permanently for murderers). Which then caused players to turn to exploiting systems like thieving to steal loot instead of killing players.

Eventually UO made it an incredibly hard chore to be a player killer.

Then it happened in WoW when they had PvP servers where you could kill the other faction. That got nerfed continually until it was no longer worth it, and most of the player migrated to the PvE servers.

Saw it happen in Age of Conan, a game designed around PvP combat. So many players complained that they couldn't level effectively because higher level players were ganking them in the leveling zones "for fun", and so they were raging. PvE servers were created. The majority of the population moved. Then the game died because of reasons both related and unrelated to PvP. Conan had an extremely fun and engaging siege system if you could get enough players on voice chat and organize the raiding of player owned keeps.

In the end, MMORPGs designed around PvP do tend to fail or change so much from the original vision that they're unrecognizable. Seems like everyone has a hero complex, and cannot stand a world where a person could play a villain.

And in GS you just get banned. :lol:

People as a whole are too shitty for any type of PvP setup to not degenerate into pure chaos sooner or later.

[Taernath]

I saw this the other day:

https://blizzardwatch.com/2020/08/05/horde-players-sulfuras-server-stopped-alliance-ringing-scarab-gong-entire-ten-hour-war/

and thought of this thread.

[Elgrim]

In the end, MMORPGs designed around PvP do tend to fail or change so much from the original vision that they're unrecognizable.

This.

PVP is not a feature a majority of the market cares for. Games with forced PVP are even more doomed to failure. These features are usually a key indicator determining if a game is worth sinking time into.

[Hightower]

This.

PVP is not a feature a majority of the market cares for. Games with forced PVP are even more doomed to failure. These features are usually a key indicator determining if a game is worth sinking time into.


While you're probably right, I hold on to hope that the industry just hasn't found the right formula yet. What would such a game even look like? Traditionally, PvP flagging functions as an on/off switch for consent to combat with other players. So, I was thinking what if it were more like a dimmer switch?

- Let's say PvP is a go at all times in our hypothetical PvP MMO, but it has factions (not free-for-all).

- Players who flag PvE give up the right to defend themselves against other players (but would be able to flag PvP at will), but gain significant defenses (e.g. armor, health, temporary shields, stealth, reactive stuns, mobility, etc.) with which they may make themselves a difficult (but not impossible!) target.

- Players who flag for PvP would naturally gain the ability to attack other players, but would additionally have some sort of weakness to NPC guards such that they would be at a disadvantage engaging in PvE or hybrid objectives.

- Reward structure would also change based upon your PvE/PvP choice and incentives would naturally funnel players toward participation and cooperation.

Example: A mini map with its primary feature being a farm that produces essential food and goods for your faction's war effort. PvE players would be rewarded for doing what PvE players do with all the usual PvE activities, but their efforts contribute something essential that the PvP players need to defend or attack the enemy faction in a siege warfare scenario. Meanwhile, PvP players would be charged with defense of the realm's assets, such as our farm and its PvE players, who are again producing something of value to the PvP player's objectives. And of course, the opposing faction's PvP players would be rewarded for disrupting those objectives.

So, we have the usual PvE with forced PvP, but PvE players are not required to engage, are given tools with which to avoid being killed, and have the advantage of both PvP players who are rewarded for defending them and NPCs which have an advantage against enemy players. Do you think that could be a good platform to start with?

I've seen signs that players who are very much against PvP can have a great time in a PvP game mode. Guild Wars 2 WvW shows some of that, at least. You have your serious group players who look at siege warfare the way PvE players look at raids. They have meta builds and specific group compositions to ensure that they have everything they need to fight against a similarly organized opponent. But you also have your zerglings that have no idea what they're doing and would simply cower in fear if they found themselves in a 1v1, yet have a blast running around in a big group with a bunch of other fodder, scoring kills by sheer numbers! Then you have your roamers, who like to fight and don't always care if it's fair or not!

Anyway, I'd love to hear that one of these new MMOs on the horizon has the formula figured out. I've been playing GW2 for awhile now because it has fast, fluid combat and isn't P2W. Still, they barely support their competitive game modes. A game that integrates PvP with PvE can ignore neither. But can they do it while offering a level playing field with no P2W while producing content that appeals to both types of players? That's a tall order!

~Taverkin

[Orthin]

I saw this the other day:

https://blizzardwatch.com/2020/08/05/horde-players-sulfuras-server-stopped-alliance-ringing-scarab-gong-entire-ten-hour-war/

and thought of this thread.

God damn that’s amazing! I wish I could have participated

[Taernath]

God damn that’s amazing! I wish I could have participated

Probably depends on what side you were on.

If you spent loads of time grinding for your guild or were, god forbid, the designated Scarab Lord and couldn't finish... I would be beyond pissed.