Official : Ascension Update

[Avaia]

The team met last night and finalized some additional details regarding Ascension, which I’m now opening up for player discussion.

* A character can’t participate in the Ascension system until level 20. After that point, they can divert a percent of their normal experience toward Ascension experience at the rate of 1 percent per level (e.g. 20% at level 20, 50% at level 50, and 100% at level 100).
* Characters will be able to earn milestone Ascension Training Points (ATPs) for completing certain activities, in addition to earning ATPs by converting a certain amount of field experience to Ascension experience. Our goal is that the average character will easily earn 10 ATPs by level 100, with an additional 5 or so ATPs being possible for more dedicated characters. As an example, you might be able to earn 1 milestone ATP per 20 levels earned on your character. When possible, any credit for these activities will be retroactively applied.
* Characters will earn 1 ATP per 50,000 Ascension experience earned.
* Common abilities, which include +stat/skill/resists, act as enhancives, that stack with enhancive items, but are not subject to the enhancive limit and require no recharging.
* Each rank of +stat ability is +1 stat, not bonus. Each +skill rank is +1 skill bonus. Each +resist is +1% resist, but resist items and abilities do not stack and only use the largest bonus from all categories.
* The first 5 ranks of each +stat/skill/resist Common ability will cost 1 ATP each. Every 5 ranks after that, the cost increases by +1 ATP. As such, it will require approximately 9 million Ascension experience just to reach rank 40 in any one individual Common ability, and there are over 70 of them.

Please keep in mind, this system is mainly intended for post-cap development and to ensure longevity in the game. It’s our goal that no character should ever maximize every ability, or even more than a handful of them. In addition, this represents just the Common abilities. The Elite and Legendary will potentially be significantly more expensive, but also more impactful and character defining. Lastly, once we have most of this system in place, we hope to introduce new post-capped hunting grounds that are significantly more difficult, but offer greater rewards for the effort (more Ascension experience and treasure) compared to existing options. Let us know what you think!

GameMaster Estild

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Combat,%20Magic,%20and%20Character%20Mechanics/Ascension/thread/1922000?get_newest=true

[Taernath]

It’s our goal that no character should ever maximize every ability, or even more than a handful of them.[/url]

I think they underestimate the playerbase.

[Luntz]

I'm all torqued up over here

[Tgo01]

I think they underestimate the playerbase.

"People will never reach such a high level that it will literally break the game."

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

So basically, people who've invested years of time and effort to 1x, 2x, 3x post cap will be penalized? Am I misinterpreting this?

[Astray]

That slow ass leveling? Do it slower, idiot.

[Avaia]

So basically, people who've invested years of time and effort to 1x, 2x, 3x post cap will be penalized? Am I misinterpreting this?

Sort of yes, sort of no, if I understand how it will be implemented. :drink: It is true that they won't grandfathered in or whatever and get to automatically have ATPs, but at the same time their skills will be far more complete than someone who hasn't earned that much normal exp. You don't do both at 100% at the same time.

Which would you want... +40 in any one ability, or 9 million experience to spend on normal skills?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Which would you want... +40 in any one ability, or 9 million experience to spend on normal skills?

I'd want months and years of my life back.

Is the goal to drive away long time players?

[Avaia]

I'd want months and years of my life back.

Is the goal to drive away long time players?

:rofl:

.. I think it is intended to give the Roblars and the Melivns and Methais' of the game something to work towards that means something. :shrug:

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Also, as a background. I've worked in analytics my whole life. Every model shows retaining clients is more cost effective than attracting new clients. I'm curious the logic behind penalizing long time players. What's the business model?

I will offer my services to do analytics on any actual data they have that can be modeled. I suspect there is none, but hey, I'll do it for free. I do marketing models and ROI models every day.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

and just to caveat. The models I'm speaking too are with respect to shrinking businesses. Like, retaining clients in important if you aren't growing. Clearly GSIV isn't growing, so...

[Archigeek]

I don't see how this penalizes long term players. What's the penalty? Other than getting sucked into even more years of grinding?

[Orthin]

What’s really crazy is this system they teased seems to be lining up for launch this year when if they teased this just a couple years everyone would have said “just like Savants”. Yeah those 3x plus folks will have more grinding to do but if those 3x folks are still here it’s more than just getting points for them at this point (I assume I don’t know for certain) and like someone else said for freshly capped folks still dying in hunting grounds to Cmans or having issues with spellburst. Do you think they are pushing �� ATP to get 1 ATP for 50k ascension exp or pushing their exp for core skills to allow them to grow? The 2-3x capped person can fully divert with little to no impact to their core

[Fortybox]

and just to caveat. The models I'm speaking too are with respect to shrinking businesses. Like, retaining clients in important if you aren't growing. Clearly GSIV isn't growing, so...

If your sole focus is retaining consumers then all you’re doing is just slowing the hemorrhaging.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

If your sole focus is retaining consumers then all you’re doing is just slowing the hemorrhaging.

Yes, that's pretty obvious.

[drumpel]

Here's hoping this system isn't too far away. I can see a beneficial return for a few of my characters solely on splitting off main EXP to Ascension exp.

Right now I can eat through a higher level in about two week's time and it's driving me out of hunting areas I enjoy in a fast pace. I'd love to divert some exp away from going up in levels so fast. One character I've gone through 250 LTE in the past month to pull exp out of his head so he isn't rapidly out leveling a hunting area I like. He's sitting on around 65K LTE and I've still got another 280+ LTE to use, but they're going down quick.

I'm excited to see what all will exactly transpire here while I'm impatiently waiting for it to get released.

[Skeletor]

The team met last night and finalized some additional details regarding Ascension, which I’m now opening up for player discussion.

* A character can’t participate in the Ascension system until level 20. After that point, they can divert a percent of their normal experience toward Ascension experience at the rate of 1 percent per level (e.g. 20% at level 20, 50% at level 50, and 100% at level 100).
* Characters will be able to earn milestone Ascension Training Points (ATPs) for completing certain activities, in addition to earning ATPs by converting a certain amount of field experience to Ascension experience. Our goal is that the average character will easily earn 10 ATPs by level 100, with an additional 5 or so ATPs being possible for more dedicated characters. As an example, you might be able to earn 1 milestone ATP per 20 levels earned on your character. When possible, any credit for these activities will be retroactively applied.
* Characters will earn 1 ATP per 50,000 Ascension experience earned.
* Common abilities, which include +stat/skill/resists, act as enhancives, that stack with enhancive items, but are not subject to the enhancive limit and require no recharging.
* Each rank of +stat ability is +1 stat, not bonus. Each +skill rank is +1 skill bonus. Each +resist is +1% resist, but resist items and abilities do not stack and only use the largest bonus from all categories.
* The first 5 ranks of each +stat/skill/resist Common ability will cost 1 ATP each. Every 5 ranks after that, the cost increases by +1 ATP. As such, it will require approximately 9 million Ascension experience just to reach rank 40 in any one individual Common ability, and there are over 70 of them.

Please keep in mind, this system is mainly intended for post-cap development and to ensure longevity in the game. It’s our goal that no character should ever maximize every ability, or even more than a handful of them. In addition, this represents just the Common abilities. The Elite and Legendary will potentially be significantly more expensive, but also more impactful and character defining. Lastly, once we have most of this system in place, we hope to introduce new post-capped hunting grounds that are significantly more difficult, but offer greater rewards for the effort (more Ascension experience and treasure) compared to existing options. Let us know what you think!

GameMaster Estild

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Combat,%20Magic,%20and%20Character%20Mechanics/Ascension/thread/1922000?get_newest=true

This part is the most intriguing. Significantly more difficult? How? As in nearly impossible to solo unless you have at least one set of max’d Legendary abilities? Group oriented? Obviously, if they are going to pump up our characters they will probably give us a challenge to use these new power.

Personally, I would like to see group oriented content for post cap hunting. Like super small groups of 3~5 players. I really don’t want to see just another grind place, practically we have entirety of the current game for that.

[Orthin]

This part is the most intriguing. Significantly more difficult? How? As in nearly impossible to solo unless you have at least one set of max’d Legendary abilities? Group oriented? Obviously, if they are going to pump up our characters they will probably give us a challenge to use these new power.

Personally, I would like to see group oriented content for post cap hunting. Like super small groups of 3~5 players. I really don’t want to see just another grind place, practically we have entirety of the current game for that.


I can see it now, HoA power hours #GetThatATP.

[Orthin]

This part is the most intriguing. Significantly more difficult? How? As in nearly impossible to solo unless you have at least one set of max’d Legendary abilities? Group oriented? Obviously, if they are going to pump up our characters they will probably give us a challenge to use these new power.

Personally, I would like to see group oriented content for post cap hunting. Like super small groups of 3~5 players. I really don’t want to see just another grind place, practically we have entirety of the current game for that.

Capped areas with the warcamp shroud would be banana's

[Skeletor]

Capped areas with the warcamp shroud would be banana's

I’d imagine killing 12~20 post-cap critters which triggers a mini-boss to appear which is impossibly difficult outside of a group. The chest it leaves behind will have an “ATP orb” for each player who participated in the 12~20 grind and helped kill the mini-boss.

[Orthin]

I’d imagine killing 12~20 post-cap critters which triggers a mini-boss to appear which is impossibly difficult outside of a group. The chest it leaves behind will have an “ATP orb” for each player who participated in the 12~20 grind and helped kill the mini-boss.

Also neat idea

[loxe]

this isn't mandatory correct? I mean if you are capped and don't like the idea of working a skill or stat past its current cap, you can just not do ascension and keep earning regular exp and keep filling out other stuff.

[Gelston]

this isn't mandatory correct? I mean if you are capped and don't like the idea of working a skill or stat past its current cap, you can just not do ascension and keep earning regular exp and keep filling out other stuff.

I think you're allowed to set the % that is taken from XP to ascension.

[Archigeek]

This part is the most intriguing. Significantly more difficult? How? As in nearly impossible to solo unless you have at least one set of max’d Legendary abilities? Group oriented? Obviously, if they are going to pump up our characters they will probably give us a challenge to use these new power.

Personally, I would like to see group oriented content for post cap hunting. Like super small groups of 3~5 players. I really don’t want to see just another grind place, practically we have entirety of the current game for that.

The south half of the scatter is designed for groups, but possible to do solo. Mostly it's the high level of liches (115) plus the phylactaries. That's how they encourage group hunting there. I don't think it's been that effective in that regard, mostly because people who want to group hunt often are more interested in socializing than they are in challenging hunting. Also not many people are fans of "put me in RT" as the selected method for making an area a group hunting area.

[Avaia]

this isn't mandatory correct? I mean if you are capped and don't like the idea of working a skill or stat past its current cap, you can just not do ascension and keep earning regular exp and keep filling out other stuff.

Correct. At least so far!

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Ah, I misunderstood the enhancement. Sounds like it's cool actually. Please ignore my previous statements.

[loxe]

so where is the screwing over coming from. is it just the super post capped who want what they have already earned , and to be grandfathered in to have all the post cap asension?.... if this is the case let those who are super post cap unlearn skills, and convert the regained exp into asension points to be allocated. give them the choice. but not both.

[Archigeek]

so where is the screwing over coming from. is it just the super post capped who want what they have already earned , and to be grandfathered in to have all the post cap asension?.... if this is the case let those who are super post cap unlearn skills, and convert the regained exp into asension points to be allocated. give them the choice. but not both.

If you allow reallocation of already learned EXP, you'll be right back where you started: high level boredom.

[loxe]

I agree, but for those who don't, it might be nice to be given the choice.

[Donquix]

Ah, I misunderstood the enhancement. Sounds like it's cool actually. Please ignore my previous statements.

also any of the "milestone" atps they mentioned, you will retroactively get *assuming* it's something they were already tracking or can infer from your current character status.

For instance: if you got a "milestone" atp for every 20 levels until cap, every capped character would receive those when the system launches. Since, obviously, if you are cap you leveled to 20/40/60/80 along the way.

If they added a milestone atp for like "teabagging an infernal lich while wearing a fedora", even if you've done that every day, you wouldn't get that milestone because they previously weren't tracking for that interaction.

One of the examples they gave for milestone ATPs was something like, becoming a guildmaster (not confirmed, just one mentioned as a possible example). Estild said that they are making sure to balance potential milestone ATPs between classes, so classes with existing guilds for instance wouldn't have extra "free" (lol guilds) atps not available to the others.

[Stanley Burrell]

Post-cap with a bunch of extra EXP should get some freebies IMHO.

[Taernath]

Post-cap with a bunch of extra EXP should get some freebies IMHO.

Why should they get freebies? It's a new system, they start at the beginning with everyone else.

[Gelston]

Just like any other game that releases new shit, everyone has to regear and shit.

[Voldemort]

This shit isn’t coming out till 2027 or something anyway .. looks like a metric ton of fucking work.

[Orthin]

This shit isn’t coming out till 2027 or something anyway .. looks like a metric ton of fucking work.

I don't know they have been pumping out change after change recently.

[Lord Orbstar]

It’s not penalizing old players. It’s adding something new. A new goal and way of achieving it. Some people are such bitch mongers. Don’t be one. Appreciate Simutronics effort at least. That is a new one.

[Archigeek]

I'm hopeful. Hopeful that they take the care to get it right, and not rush it out the door. I'd rather it work well than be a giant swing and a miss.

[Tgo01]

I'm hopeful. Hopeful that they take the care to get it right, and not rush it out the door. I'd rather it work well than be a giant swing and a miss.

"Every skill up requires 500 SimuCoins."

[Archigeek]

"Every skill up requires 500 SimuCoins."

Not what I was thinking, but yeah, that would be bad.

[Astray]

"Every skill up point pass requires 50,000 SimuCoins."

Fix'd

[audioserf]

Simu has earned every bit of the 'lol Simucoins' cynicism but honestly they've been on a fucking tear with dev in 2020 and I'm excited for Ascension to come out. I've got faith in dev, first time in a long time I've been able to say that for GSIV.

[Elgrim]

Simu has earned every bit of the 'lol Simucoins' cynicism but honestly they've been on a fucking tear with dev in 2020 and I'm excited for Ascension to come out. I've got faith in dev, first time in a long time I've been able to say that for GSIV.

This. There's way too much focus on grabbing cash from what I've seen, and events are grossly overpriced to be honest. But, on the flip side they have been cranking out improvement after improvement over the last 6 months.

Development typically means increased cost. I don't know how GM reimbursement works these days but I know it was a joke 20 years ago. I'm going to assume that some of the costs for this development is covered by the increased focus on micro-transactions. Because if it isn't, and GMs are still mostly just volunteers, then Simu is screwing them over because they have been working their asses off compared to the last two decades.

[Skeletor]

I really like this change because this is something that innately affects the character and can’t be just bought from someone or from an event. That is you gotta actually put in the work.

Unless, I spoke too soon and they are going to come out with ATP potions on the Simustore.

Oh god. :(

[Stanley Burrell]

Why should they get freebies? It's a new system, they start at the beginning with everyone else.

Well, yeah: If not Freebies, then FIXSKILLs to (hopefully) be able to use a bunch of experience for certain Ascension upgrades (probably not the legendary ones, but for smaller EXP-earned ones.)

[vantho]

I think that they stated that conversion of existing exp into ATP is not happening. High level characters will start with 10-15ish milestone ATPs, so those are your freebies

[Taernath]

Well, yeah: If not Freebies, then FIXSKILLs to (hopefully) be able to use a bunch of experience for certain Ascension upgrades (probably not the legendary ones, but for smaller EXP-earned ones.)

People have already brought it up, but if you can FIXEXP already earned post-cap xp into ATP then that removes the purpose of the system.

[Roblar]

I think that they stated that conversion of existing exp into ATP is not happening. High level characters will start with 10-15ish milestone ATPs, so those are your freebies

The milestones are not yet known or finalized so that could be higher (or lesser).

[Donquix]

Stop trying to make retroactive exp gain happen. It's not gonna happen.

Already gonna get the backdated milestone ATP, where appropriate, which until this teaser we hadn't considered.

[Luntz]

Stop trying to make retroactive exp gain happen. It's not gonna happen.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/11uoLMfASjWSJy/source.gif

[Methais]

I'd want months and years of my life back.

Is the goal to drive away long time players?

The goal is to sell RPA orbs for cash.

[Elgrim]

The goal is to sell RPA orbs for cash.

Well, they are doing that in RW, so mission accomplished? lol

[Methais]

”teabagging an infernal lich while wearing a fedora"

https://i.imgflip.com/45sfkh.jpg

[Methais]

Simu has earned every bit of the 'lol Simucoins' cynicism but honestly they've been on a fucking tear with dev in 2020 and I'm excited for Ascension to come out. I've got faith in dev, first time in a long time I've been able to say that for GSIV.

It’s pretty crazy how much of an effect getting rid of a useless pile like Coase has had on dev. I don’t know any real details behind it, but he was one of the biggest reasons behind shit never getting done.

[Methais]

Well, they are doing that in RW, so mission accomplished? lol

https://media.giphy.com/media/7OaYzPWOW112E/giphy.gif

As long as the higher tier skills are really good and worth the grind though, I won’t give too many fucks.

I don’t actually expect them to be though, as dev has a pretty different idea than most players do as to what makes the game fun.

[Astray]

It’s pretty crazy how much of an effect getting rid of a useless pile like Coase has had on dev. I don’t know any real details behind it, but he was one of the biggest reasons behind shit never getting done.

That's nuts.

[Fortybox]

https://media.giphy.com/media/7OaYzPWOW112E/giphy.gif

As long as the higher tier skills are really good and worth the grind though, I won’t give too many fucks.

I don’t actually expect them to be though, as dev has a pretty different idea than most players do as to what makes the game fun.

I’m sure the new hunting grounds will be lolRT unless you have some stupid ascension skill.

[Hightower]

I haven't played since last summer, but I do keep an eye out every once and then for info on this game I've been playing off and on for literally decades now! This is pretty exciting. I have no idea how it's going to play out as it seems they've only announced the boring baseline stuff like stat boosts. But these so-called "legendary" skills? That's the big question!

How amazing do these skills have to be to be worth millions upon millions of experience? For instance, a persistent environmental effect that simply kills you if you don't have the "legendary" skill to defend against it would be an effective means of ensuring that players train the skill (assuming they wish to enter the new area). But that wouldn't be very "legendary", would it? What exactly would be? I'm not sure how to answer that. So, I am extremely curious to hear what ideas they have on that.

~Taverkin

[Luntz]

Here is an earlier thread with some good details to whet your appetite http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?123732-Official-Ascension

[Taernath]

I haven't played since last summer, but I do keep an eye out every once and then for info on this game I've been playing off and on for literally decades now! This is pretty exciting. I have no idea how it's going to play out as it seems they've only announced the boring baseline stuff like stat boosts. But these so-called "legendary" skills? That's the big question!

How amazing do these skills have to be to be worth millions upon millions of experience? For instance, a persistent environmental effect that simply kills you if you don't have the "legendary" skill to defend against it would be an effective means of ensuring that players train the skill (assuming they wish to enter the new area). But that wouldn't be very "legendary", would it? What exactly would be? I'm not sure how to answer that. So, I am extremely curious to hear what ideas they have on that.

~Taverkin

They threw a few ideas out in the initial announcement. They're still brainstorming them.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?123732-Official-Ascension


Finally, Legendary abilities are designed for specific abilities/spells and usually tailored to a specific profession. It includes things like Rangers being able to tame one of each animal companion type (and separate ability to temporarily summon them all in combat), Warriors being able to manually stop a Berserk, Bards being able to create higher enchant sonic armaments, double attacks/spells, etc.

lol @ warriors stopping a berserk being legendary, but the rest sound interesting.

[Hightower]

Thanks!

The legendary skill section seemed very vague and it's not clear how the examples provided might be utilized specifically in the newer, tougher hunting ground we're imagining down the road. But I suppose I shouldn't worry overmuch. As a nearly 3x cap player, I'm getting to the point where the benefit of additional experience becomes increasingly irrelevant. It's difficult to imagine any system of benefits that would have less impact than earning more TPs has at this point. So, from that perspective, why worry? I'm sure it will be great and give me an excuse to re-open my account to see what's new!

~Taverkin

[Astray]

lol @ warriors stopping a berserk being legendary, but the rest sound interesting.

Even dodgier rogues. Calling it now.

[Methais]

Thanks!

The legendary skill section seemed very vague and it's not clear how the examples provided might be utilized specifically in the newer, tougher hunting ground we're imagining down the road. But I suppose I shouldn't worry overmuch. As a nearly 3x cap player, I'm getting to the point where the benefit of additional experience becomes increasingly irrelevant. It's difficult to imagine any system of benefits that would have less impact than earning more TPs has at this point. So, from that perspective, why worry? I'm sure it will be great and give me an excuse to re-open my account to see what's new!

~Taverkin

I really hope I'm wrong, but I'm expecting legendary stuff to be mediocre at best.

Except for empaths.

[Hymore246]

While I think some post cap development will be good for the game, all the cash grab bs over the years makes me very caution about this system being monetized. I'm worried about getting my hopes up because Simu always does the most horrible "gotcha" tricks and ruins otherwise great ideas. For the sake of safety, I'll earn ATPs but not spend them until I figure out how they can be refunded and if their are prerequisites for the Elite and Legendary abilities. I don't want to pay $20 to Simu store because "I spec'd wrong." Hopefully, there will be an unlearn system like with maneuvers or fix skills can refund them.




Even dodgier rogues. Calling it now.

GMs seems to be lacking ideas for what to give rogues to improve them. Everything is either hiding, traps, dodge, or picking. Kinda uninspired, but something is better than nothing. I've tossed some ideas to them, so I hope that will help.



It’s pretty crazy how much of an effect getting rid of a useless pile like Coase has had on dev. I don’t know any real details behind it, but he was one of the biggest reasons behind shit never getting done.
I'd love to know the background on what Coase did to get let go and what he had against squares. I've played for a few years and it was so rare to get any sort of square buff while everyone else just got buff after buff instead. Only since Naijin came along did it feel like rogues were getting something that wasn't a lockpicking change.

Also, wasn't he the GM that caused all that drama with the greater elemental essences?

[Merzbow]

Also, wasn't he the GM that caused all that drama with the greater elemental essences?

Yes (Methais has had a ton to say on that matter). He also nerfed fusion into the ground, I think the excuse was that clueless GMs programmed it who weren't fully aware of how badly we would min-max it, so the gains had to be cut in half (with the awful decay and pry system). But then they turn around and offer oceans of perm +skill/stat certs at DR so if you really want items with +zillions to whatever the fuck you can gladly build that with enough BS over a couple years. C'mon bruh.

[Hightower]

Yes (Methais has had a ton to say on that matter). He also nerfed fusion into the ground, I think the excuse was that clueless GMs programmed it who weren't fully aware of how badly we would min-max it, so the gains had to be cut in half (with the awful decay and pry system). But then they turn around and offer oceans of perm +skill/stat certs at DR so if you really want items with +zillions to whatever the fuck you can gladly build that with enough BS over a couple years. C'mon bruh.

But don't you ever call it Pay-To-Win. There is no win. There is only pay.

[Methais]

While I think some post cap development will be good for the game, all the cash grab bs over the years makes me very caution about this system being monetized. I'm worried about getting my hopes up because Simu always does the most horrible "gotcha" tricks and ruins otherwise great ideas. For the sake of safety, I'll earn ATPs but not spend them until I figure out how they can be refunded and if their are prerequisites for the Elite and Legendary abilities. I don't want to pay $20 to Simu store because "I spec'd wrong." Hopefully, there will be an unlearn system like with maneuvers or fix skills can refund them.

RPA orbs for cash will be a regular thing once Ascension goes live. It's already starting, and I'm 99.99999999999999999999% sure it will continue indefinitely. That and other P2W exp items are what Ascension is really about.



GMs seems to be lacking ideas for what to give rogues to improve them. Everything is either hiding, traps, dodge, or picking. Kinda uninspired, but something is better than nothing. I've tossed some ideas to them, so I hope that will help.

They might have something similar for all I know, but what about a Shadowstep type ability? If I remember it right from WoW (might be called something else, it's been years) there was some ability that would let you Blink to and ambush a target, then Blink to another target and ambush them, etc. Basically an AoE ambush. AoE is where rogues are weakest, and giving them an mstrike type attack that uses hide/ambush mechanics as far as crit weighting would be pretty neat. Would probably need some sort of cooldown and/or stamina cost similar to 950.



Also, wasn't he the GM that caused all that drama with the greater elemental essences?

No, but he is the one who stealth nerfed the Confluence and hid the code in "Core Systems," whatever that is other than not at all where code like that should be put unless you're trying to hide it. The deal with the greater essences for close to their first year in existence were their literal non-existent drop rate.




But don't you ever call it Pay-To-Win. There is no win. There is only pay.

One unique but funny/sad part about Gemstone's Pay2Win is pretty much every other P2W game out there, you throw out cash, and you get your reward.

In GS you pay them cash for the ability to grind the same short event 578042304732904723094320497230934 times in a row over dozens if not hundreds of hours.

So you pay cash but still have to invest the time and work to get the reward.

If Simu ran a promo where you get X item in exchange for Wyrom taking a tubgirl level shit directly in your mouth in real life after eating an entire bag of Harbo's sugarless gummy bears (https://www.amazon.com/Haribo-SUGAR-Classic-Gummi-Bears/product-reviews/B006J1FBLM), which you also have to buy a plane ticket and fly out to his house for, half of this game's player base would be booking flights right away.

[Avaia]

They might have something similar for all I know, but what about a Shadowstep type ability? If I remember it right from WoW (might be called something else, it's been years) there was some ability that would let you Blink to and ambush a target, then Blink to another target and ambush them, etc. Basically an AoE ambush. AoE is where rogues are weakest, and giving them an mstrike type attack that uses hide/ambush mechanics as far as crit weighting would be pretty neat. Would probably need some sort of cooldown and/or stamina cost similar to 950.

That's an awesome idea. You should go to the Ascension Folder on the Officials and post it.

[Hymore246]

One unique but funny/sad part about Gemstone's Pay2Win is pretty much every other P2W game out there, you throw out cash, and you get your reward.

In GS you pay them cash for the ability to grind the same short event 578042304732904723094320497230934 times in a row over dozens if not hundreds of hours.

So you pay cash but still have to invest the time and work to get the reward.

I've complained plenty about P2W in the past. All I'll say is GS4 is the only game I've seen the requires a cover charge to enter their "casino" and like you said, you are not guaranteed to "win" anything for paying the entry fee.



No, but he is the one who stealth nerfed the Confluence and hid the code in "Core Systems," whatever that is other than not at all where code like that should be put unless you're trying to hide it. The deal with the greater essences for close to their first year in existence were their literal non-existent drop rate.

Who "hides" code??? What possible reason could there be for doing that?! It's not even like the greater essences are overpowered. They are literally a niche item to enchant flare weapons. Why do this? WHY? What the fuck was this guy's problem?

[Skeletor]

The more and more I think about it the more I think Methais is correct. This whole Ascencion thing is a ploy to expand Simu’s product line.

They’ve pretty much maxed out all the slots on a piece of gear now with the ability to have both damage and crit and pretty much anything and everything you can think of.

The last frontier was character progression. There wasn’t really a way to monetize it especially for capped characters until now.

Whatever, the game is was getting more and more boring by the day, the people were all that was keeping me anyway.

[Methais]

I've complained plenty about P2W in the past. All I'll say is GS4 is the only game I've seen the requires a cover charge to enter their "casino" and like you said, you are not guaranteed to "win" anything for paying the entry fee.



Who "hides" code??? What possible reason could there be for doing that?! It's not even like the greater essences are overpowered. They are literally a niche item to enchant flare weapons. Why do this? WHY? What the fuck was this guy's problem?

The nerf had nothing to do with the essences. He nerfed the loot in the area altogether. The way it worked before was the loot was always awesome because most people couldn't survive the place, so there was never any loot pressure.

I guess Coase didn't like that, because he's a dick, so he stealth nerfed the whole area it to where it's basically super accelerated loot pressure, but unique to each character. The more loot you pick up in there, the lower the drop rates are going to get until you're finding almost nothing, and it resets daily.

On average I'll walk out of the Confluence with around 150 gems and 40-50 plinites by the time the place is dried up. And I'm probably staying out there too long as it is just not paying attention to the shitty drop rates at the time.

Pre-nerf, I'd pull roughly 200+ plinites a day out of there, and my bard literally couldn't purify gems fast enough to keep up, and that's with throwing out trash gems. There was nothing special about the area other than it was hunted by only me and a small handful of others at the time, because everyone else would get wrecked I guess, as the place can be a huge pain in the ass if you're not pretty far post cap, so the loot was always insane.

Bugged Wyrom for like a year asking what got nerfed, he'd check, wouldn't see anything, and be like "I don't see anything indicating that anything in the area has changed." or whatever.

Eventually he dug a little deeper and found it buried/hidden way the fuck down in "Core Systems." Which I don't know what Core Systems is, other than not being somewhere that shit like that should go.

[Murrandii]

TINFOY HAT ENERGY ON:

There's a lot of interesting dev going around and we were debating the intention behind em. Saying there's no intention is a demonstration of not understanding how business model works.

When you see Naijin's work, at first glance, you're like WOW TABARNAK NICE

When you add up the whole things together, you are like: Something's happening, they are slowly trying to enter stuff in my body and I didn't got prepared first!

When asking him on official WHY are you dev esp, 4 things Naijin said:

Astrenoir06/20/2020
I don'T get the dev there @Naijin besides a SIMU's stance on lnet OR satisfying the people not wanting to go to lnet for whatever reasons (mostly being against scripting).

1)
Naijin06/20/2020
Policy isn't a me thing. I'm just the code monkey.

2)
Naijin06/20/2020
I've used LNet longer than most people playing this game and I still feel strongly about a solid in-game communication outlet
Well, primarily, not having people be hijacked accidentally by third party code. At least, that's my goal.


3)
There was recently a remote code execution exploit in LNet that allowed an attacker to run code on anyone connected to LNet. That was the impetus of pushing for the ESP update. It's been patched so no worries but things like that are spooky.

4)
Naijin06/20/2020
It's a small community we have and things like that are typically found/fixed before malicious folks do anything with it but that's the risk you take when you connect to third party services.(edited)
If someone was able to reroll your character, what's the recovery look like?


…

For me, hints demonstrate patterns here:

They're trying to take over some lich aspects, little by little, either by making the scripts obsolete (like RESOURCE function) or creating rivalties (like ESP over ;lnet)

They're justifying it with the security thing, we all know that's bullshit but it's a choice if you use lich or not.
They don't need to ban the whole thing, they just need to release rival FEATURES to lich and wave the fear flag. BINGO

They're pushing dev into things that will create dépendancies ( Ascension being fuleed by rpa bought from simustore to ease the grinding)


Sounds like SIMU's entering the phase to moneytize what LICH doesn't allow them to do. More grinding for stuff (with less LICH cause fear) or use our juicy rpa to get those useless post cap skills to hunt those too hard hunting ground for new rewards

Clear as mountain water

TINFOY HAT REMOVED

[Skeletor]

TINFOY HAT ENERGY ON:

There's a lot of interesting dev going around and we were debating the intention behind em. Saying there's no intention is not a demonstration of not understanding how business model works.

When you see Naijin's work, at first glance, you're like WOW TABARNAK NICE

When you add up the whole things together, you are like: Something's happening, they are slowly trying to enter stuff in my body and I didn't got prepared first!

When asking him on official WHY are you dev esp, 4 things Naijin said:

Astrenoir06/20/2020
I don'T get the dev there @Naijin besides a SIMU's stance on lnet OR satisfying the people not wanting to go to lnet for whatever reasons (mostly being against scripting).

1)
Naijin06/20/2020
Policy isn't a me thing. I'm just the code monkey.

2)
Naijin06/20/2020
I've used LNet longer than most people playing this game and I still feel strongly about a solid in-game communication outlet
Well, primarily, not having people be hijacked accidentally by third party code. At least, that's my goal.


3)
There was recently a remote code execution exploit in LNet that allowed an attacker to run code on anyone connected to LNet. That was the impetus of pushing for the ESP update. It's been patched so no worries but things like that are spooky.

4)
Naijin06/20/2020
It's a small community we have and things like that are typically found/fixed before malicious folks do anything with it but that's the risk you take when you connect to third party services.(edited)
If someone was able to reroll your character, what's the recovery look like?


…

For me, hints demonstrate patterns here:

They're trying to take over some lich aspects, little by little, either by making the scripts obsolete (like RESOURCE function) or creating rivalties (like ESP over ;lnet)

They're justifying it with the security thing, we all know that's bullshit but it's a choice if you use lich or not.
They don't need to ban the whole thing, they just need to release rival FEATURES to lich and wave the fear flag. BINGO

They're pushing dev into things that will create dépendancies ( Ascension being fuleed by rpa bought from simustore to ease the grinding)


Sounds like SIMU's entering the phase to moneytize what LICH doesn't allow them to do. More grinding for stuff (with less LICH cause fear) or use our juicy rpa to get those useless post cap skills to hunt those too hard hunting ground for new rewards

Clear as mountain water

TINFOY HAT REMOVED

I kinda agree with Naijin there. When there’s $10,000’s on the line which with GemStone there is, someone whipping up code to attack your account or whatever isn’t too crazy to think of.

Thoughtnet will still be ever useless and noone will use it however. They are going about this the wrong way if they are atrictly focusing on in-game solutions.

A brand new FE with much of LNET’s features on the otherhand...

[Donquix]

https://i.imgur.com/bpe6Iqp.png

[m444w]

TINFOY HAT ENERGY ON:

They're justifying it with the security thing, we all know that's bullshit but it's a choice if you use lich or not.


It's not bullshit.

I made the responsible disclosure to Tillmen last week by sending him a proof-of-exploit where a bad actor could run arbitary code on any user's computer that was connected to lnet. Tillmen responded quickly and professionally to mitigate the RCE as soon as he got home from work.

After Tillmen mitigated the initial exploit, I also disclosed it to a few other trusted developers in our community so they could be made aware of it in case there were other edge cases I did not initially think of (standard practice when investigating security issues). Naijin, proposed just using his GM developing skillz to create something he felt personally more confident in for the community.

He's not forcing anyone to use it or not, some people spend very large amounts of money on this game, and it was a reasonable consideration for him to make.

You're assigning malice where there is none, and it's kind of gross when everyone involved was trying their best to ensure the security of our community.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

da fug is a tinfoy?

[2Sage]

RPA orbs for cash will be a regular thing once Ascension goes live. It's already starting, and I'm 99.99999999999999999999% sure it will continue indefinitely. That and other P2W exp items are what Ascension is really about.

I get the impression that the fast travel to hunting ability of the mounts is going to be key to an Ascension area.

[Fortybox]

It's not bullshit.

I made the responsible disclosure to Tillmen last week by sending him a proof-of-exploit where a bad actor could run arbitary code on any user's computer that was connected to lnet. Tillmen responded quickly and professionally to mitigate the RCE as soon as he got home from work.

I also disclosed it to a few other trusted developers in our community so they could be made aware of it in case there were other edge cases I did not initially think of. Naijin, proposed just using his GM developing skillz to create something he felt personally more confident in for the community.

He's not forcing anyone to use it or not, some people spend very large amounts of money on this game, and it was a reasonable consideration for him to make.

You're assigning malice where there is none, and it's kind of gross when everyone involved was trying their best to ensure the security of our community.

You were one of the instigators of the failed safespace forum. I'm not surprised you're now trying to help shift control back to simu for lnet/lich. You have an axe to grind.

With a dev team that actually does things now, shifting more and more of lich features to Simu control is a given. As you mention, Tillmen mitigated the situation but that isn't stopping someone like Naijin from further demonizing lich. He has every incentive now to do so and Wyrom has $ signs in his eyes.

[Murrandii]

It's not bullshit.

I made the responsible disclosure to Tillmen last week by sending him a proof-of-exploit where a bad actor could run arbitary code on any user's computer that was connected to lnet. Tillmen responded quickly and professionally to mitigate the RCE as soon as he got home from work.

After Tillmen mitigated the initial exploit, I also disclosed it to a few other trusted developers in our community so they could be made aware of it in case there were other edge cases I did not initially think of (standard practice when investigating security issues). Naijin, proposed just using his GM developing skillz to create something he felt personally more confident in for the community.

He's not forcing anyone to use it or not, some people spend very large amounts of money on this game, and it was a reasonable consideration for him to make.

You're assigning malice where there is none, and it's kind of gross when everyone involved was trying their best to ensure the security of our community.

I never said Naijin is bullshitting LOL. I'm saying the INTENTION, the reason to push further dev IS bullshit.

You are seeing malice where I see correlation:

There was some security failure in lich since its begining? Yes

What Simu did back then? nothing

There was a security failure in lich / ruby whatever lately? Yes

Why the need to give access to SIMU official ingame chat service then? You want to give a choice? fine

Why are SIMU waving the fear flag then? It was always known third parties are risky (risky is a big word).

That's a fake choice in my book.

[m444w]

I never said Naijin is bullshitting LOL. I'm saying the INTENTION, the reason to push further dev IS bullshit.

You are seeing malice where I see correlation:

There was some security failure in lich since its begining? Yes



Actually, incorrect again, the exploit was only available after the migration from Ruby 1.x to Ruby 2.x due to the way sandboxed code is evaluated, but it's a good try at a conspiracy.

If anyone who isn't a crank wants to read a bit about the details and research you can have a read through this blog post:
https://www.elttam.com/blog/ruby-deserialization/

The general Ruby proof-of-concept was only published in November, 2018 and it was quite tricky.

[Methais]

It's not bullshit.

I made the responsible disclosure to Tillmen last week by sending him a proof-of-exploit where a bad actor could run arbitary code on any user's computer that was connected to lnet. Tillmen responded quickly and professionally to mitigate the RCE as soon as he got home from work.

After Tillmen mitigated the initial exploit, I also disclosed it to a few other trusted developers in our community so they could be made aware of it in case there were other edge cases I did not initially think of (standard practice when investigating security issues). Naijin, proposed just using his GM developing skillz to create something he felt personally more confident in for the community.

He's not forcing anyone to use it or not, some people spend very large amounts of money on this game, and it was a reasonable consideration for him to make.

You're assigning malice where there is none, and it's kind of gross when everyone involved was trying their best to ensure the security of our community.

You should have goatse'd like 1 person before telling him about it.

[Hymore246]

https://i.imgur.com/bpe6Iqp.png

More like:

Players: I can't believe Simu never added these features!
Simu: (Adds features)
Players: What's the catch?

I just can't trust Simu. It always seems like they are up to something when they make changes. Maybe if they keep doing these QoL updates and buffs it will restore my faith in them. Maybe.

[Murrandii]

Actually, incorrect again, the exploit was only available after the migration from Ruby 1.x to Ruby 2.x due to the way sandboxed code is evaluated, but it's a good try at a conspiracy.

If anyone who isn't a crank wants to read a bit about the details and research you can have a read through this blog post:
https://www.elttam.com/blog/ruby-deserialization/

As the general Ruby proof-of-concept was only published in 2018

Is using a third party risky since they store some data ?

Did Simu was always saying LICh is to be used with parcimonie, or, worse, with a lot of care?

Did Simu completely embraced Lich whatsoever?

Are you implying there was NEVER any security risk in regards to LICH whatsoever before the migration incident ? LOL

Reread Naijin's answer. I know he's a computer guru. If he knows half what you said (since you seem to be an expert) then WHY is it the motivation that encouraged him to dev rush his stuff?

[Taernath]

https://i.imgur.com/HQc95Zt.jpg

[m444w]

Is using a third party risky since they store some data ?

Did Simu was always saying LICh is to be used with parcimonie, or, worse, with a lot of care?

Did Simu completely embraced Lich whatsoever?

Are you implying there was NEVER any security risk in regards to LICH whatsoever before the migration incident ? LOL


Is asking questions with obvious answers interesting? There are security risks anytime you run code on your computer, even visiting a website is risky. Most people accept those risks but it doesn't mean developers don't patch websites or create more secure services when problems are found.



Reread Naijin's answer. I know he's a computer guru. If he knows half what you said (since you seem to be an expert) then WHY is it the motivation that encouraged him to dev rush his stuff?

Because he likely cannot contribute to Lich/lnet as a Simu employee and lnet is more-or-less a blackbox anyway, so the only thing he can do is make sure there is a reasonable alternative?

[Murrandii]

he contributes to lich bro, he is on both side of the fence.

I'm not saying Naijin has an agenda with dots and crap.

I'm saying as a corporation, SIMU's goal as mentionned by others is to moneytize the crap of everything they can since this game cannot growth per regular ways 2020 IT / gaming do. And Naijin's executing what he is told, from his own words.

And their only ways now is to attack LICH's feature, divide and conquer approach, piece by piece, and demonizing it to push people into their INGAME features. OF course, no bigshot and stuff. But our fucking rpas are riskfree for your juicy ATP!

Loli

[Skeletor]

I wonder how difficult it would be to add an in-game ;go2 function? I mean that and possibly a better thought net is really the absolute musts that I need, everything else is just frills.

I don’t bigshot either so that makes it much less complicated.

[Methais]

Is using a third party risky since they store some data ?

Did Simu was always saying LICh is to be used with parcimonie, or, worse, with a lot of care?

Did Simu completely embraced Lich whatsoever?

Are you implying there was NEVER any security risk in regards to LICH whatsoever before the migration incident ? LOL

Reread Naijin's answer. I know he's a computer guru. If he knows half what you said (since you seem to be an expert) then WHY is it the motivation that encouraged him to dev rush his stuff?

Naijin is still a pretty new GM. Perhaps that's why they didn't seem to give a shit before.

Kind of like how they didn't give a shit about fixing ranged, then Naijin came along and fixed* it.

*And nerfed, since you have to P2W your bows to 10x now. But still...

[Taernath]

I wonder how difficult it would be to add an in-game ;go2 function?

That was the mounts.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

You guys really bitching about having to walk cardinal directions in a TEXT game? What's the point if you should just poof be in a room and kill stuff, then poof be back at the inn table not interacting?

[Fortybox]

I wonder how difficult it would be to add an in-game ;go2 function? I mean that and possibly a better thought net is really the absolute musts that I need, everything else is just frills.

I don’t bigshot either so that makes it much less complicated.

This is exactly what I’ve been saying and where I believe they are heading. Simu will insource as many of lich’s features as possible and then control how they are used.

They will demonize lich as a way to get people to adopt the Simu version. So you will have Simus version of ;go2 complete with Simucoin restriction, mounts and all.

Naijin has every incentive to make this possible and people like Ondreian are cheering him on as a way to destroy places like the PC and the lnet community.

[Skeletor]

This is a little tinfoil hat myself. But, what if it was Simu who did the exploit hack of LNET ?

[Astray]

exploit hack of LNET

What?

[Avaia]

Some of ya'll are completely nuckin' futz.

1) Players complain for years that the game engine doesn't include certain features that are available in a third-party program.

2) Finally a GM comes along who says "alright" and starts to update the game with some of those features.

3) Players immediately start to complain that SIMU is up to something nefarious and why can't they just leave well enough alone.

:lol2:

[Murrandii]

Some of ya'll are completely nuckin' futz.

1) Players complain for years that the game engine doesn't include certain features that are available in a third-party program.

1,5) Players come and do their own thing with scripts and it works FINE

2) Finally a GM comes along who says "alright" and starts to update the game with some of those features.


2,5) GM decide to design rival features with the player's script and demonize the use of scripts (third party)

3) Players immediately start to complain that SIMU is up to something nefarious and why can't they just leave well enough alone.

3,5) Simu says: no, you have a choice. FAKE CHOICE!

4) Simustore is updated to sell items to support ingame new features

:lol2:


Corrected

[Gelston]

Retardified

ftfy

[Fortybox]

Some of ya'll are completely nuckin' futz.

1) Players complain for years that the game engine doesn't include certain features that are available in a third-party program.

2) Finally a GM comes along who says "alright" and starts to update the game with some of those features.

3) Players immediately start to complain that SIMU is up to something nefarious and why can't they just leave well enough alone.

:lol2:

If only it was as harmless as you make it out to be. The concern lies with Simu gaining control over features that are perfectly fine staying as third party except for the fact that Wyrom wants to make $$$ off of it.

[Fortybox]

Corrected

Truth

[Methais]

Some of ya'll are completely nuckin' futz.

1) Players complain for years that the game engine doesn't include certain features that are available in a third-party program.

2) Finally a GM comes along who says "alright" and starts to update the game with some of those features.

3) Players immediately start to complain that SIMU is up to something nefarious and why can't they just leave well enough alone.

:lol2:

You're assuming it's the same person/people behind both 1 and 3 though. :(

[Astray]

I'm out of the loop, what 'hack' on lnet? I know a lot of hacks on LNet, you have to be more specific.

[Gelston]

I'm out of the loop, what 'hack' on lnet? I know a lot of hacks on LNet, you have to be more specific.

literally read 2 pages back

[Astray]

literally read 2 pages back

Oh. Well fuck.

Yeah, okay, that whole situation.

My tinfoil hat moment would be Simu just straight up stealing Lich and implementing it. Just bypass all the bullshit and straight up steal the fucking thing keeping their game alive.

[Hymore246]

Some of ya'll are completely nuckin' futz.

1) Players complain for years that the game engine doesn't include certain features that are available in a third-party program.

2) Finally a GM comes along who says "alright" and starts to update the game with some of those features.

3) Players immediately start to complain that SIMU is up to something nefarious and why can't they just leave well enough alone.

:lol2:

Yup, this 100%. Look, I wish I could give them the benefit of the doubt on stuff but they have shown in the past that they will pull shady stuff to make money or get control. Some examples I can think of:


The censor A LOT of stuff on the official forums. I get that we can be a rowdy group but they seems to be very trigger happy.
They took over the Gemstone 4 reddit and police it the same way they do the official forums.
The actually purged some of the older posts on the official forums out of nowhere. Most of what they removed was criticism over simucoins and paid events.
That "Core Systems" stuff Methais mentioned.
Most of the "tier unlock" system on scripted weapons are hard if not impossible to get. "Auction level unlocks" might as well not exist for how rare they are. Simu LOVES their "carrot on a stick" and "bait and switch" tactics. Of course, you can ease that problem with enough money.
The 1206 SK item is the best example I can think of where Simu put money gain over the players. Monks can't use 1206, Savants are not on the table, but lets create 1206 to make some money at the next paid festival.


I am not usually like this with other games I play online. I can usually give companies the benefit of the doubt but I can't for Simu. They are a special level of greedy that actively harms their own game. Any time they do something, I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop. But lets not kid ourselves, the shoe DOES drop more often than not.

[Skeletor]

They are a special level of greedy that actively harms their own game.

But when someone drops $20,000 on a pair of text boots do you really blame them?

The fact is simple, if we stop giving into these cash greed exploits then Wyrom will be forced to move away from them and think about doing something else.

This all stops with us, the players, having some self-control. Pure and simple.

[Tgo01]

This all stops with us, the players, having some self-control. Pure and simple.

If we had self control we wouldn't be playing a 30 year old text MUD for 15+ dollars a month to begin with.

[Taernath]

They took over the Gemstone 4 reddit and police it the same way they do the official forums.

There is like 1 post per week there, and unless some kind of secret apocalypse was visited it's a very quiet, neglected place.


The actually purged some of the older posts on the official forums out of nowhere. Most of what they removed was criticism over simucoins and paid events.

I think that was due to some kind of 'upgrade' to their official boards. I'd ascribe that to incompetence rather than malevolence. RIP 9/11 topic.

[Hymore246]

There is like 1 post per week there, and unless some kind of secret apocalypse was visited it's a very quiet, neglected place.



I think that was due to some kind of 'upgrade' to their official boards. I'd ascribe that to incompetence rather than malevolence. RIP 9/11 topic.


I guess Hanlon's Razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor) strikes again!

[kookiegod]

I honestly thought Jason/Coase was one of the more talented coders I ever worked with in GS and had a firm grasp of game mechanics and the long term development strategy.

Obviously, been awhile since I been behind the scenes. It would though almost be impossible to hide anything in GS coding as its nearly all transparent unless you're working with the billing tie-ins to the game and damn few were allowed to do that.

~Paul

[Hightower]

RPA orbs for cash will be a regular thing once Ascension goes live. It's already starting, and I'm 99.99999999999999999999% sure it will continue indefinitely. That and other P2W exp items are what Ascension is really about.




They might have something similar for all I know, but what about a Shadowstep type ability? If I remember it right from WoW (might be called something else, it's been years) there was some ability that would let you Blink to and ambush a target, then Blink to another target and ambush them, etc. Basically an AoE ambush. AoE is where rogues are weakest, and giving them an mstrike type attack that uses hide/ambush mechanics as far as crit weighting would be pretty neat. Would probably need some sort of cooldown and/or stamina cost similar to 950.




No, but he is the one who stealth nerfed the Confluence and hid the code in "Core Systems," whatever that is other than not at all where code like that should be put unless you're trying to hide it. The deal with the greater essences for close to their first year in existence were their literal non-existent drop rate.





One unique but funny/sad part about Gemstone's Pay2Win is pretty much every other P2W game out there, you throw out cash, and you get your reward.

In GS you pay them cash for the ability to grind the same short event 578042304732904723094320497230934 times in a row over dozens if not hundreds of hours.

So you pay cash but still have to invest the time and work to get the reward.

If Simu ran a promo where you get X item in exchange for Wyrom taking a tubgirl level shit directly in your mouth in real life after eating an entire bag of Harbo's sugarless gummy bears (https://www.amazon.com/Haribo-SUGAR-Classic-Gummi-Bears/product-reviews/B006J1FBLM), which you also have to buy a plane ticket and fly out to his house for, half of this game's player base would be booking flights right away.


LoL Gross, but funny.

I've played this game off and on for 25 years (obviously, not as consistently as some!). I've long since accepted that if you want all the currency and all the best items the game has to offer, you have to pay. Still, it's never felt strictly necessary. I mean, how hard is a game where the majority of players just run a script while they watch youtube? I think it would really bother me if two items at the top of my GSIV wishlist (post-cap goals and hunting) ended up being nothing but a cash grab, though.

~Taverkin

[drumpel]

Yup, this 100%. Look, I wish I could give them the benefit of the doubt on stuff but they have shown in the past that they will pull shady stuff to make money or get control. Some examples I can think of:


The censor A LOT of stuff on the official forums. I get that we can be a rowdy group but they seems to be very trigger happy.
They took over the Gemstone 4 reddit and police it the same way they do the official forums.
The actually purged some of the older posts on the official forums out of nowhere. Most of what they removed was criticism over simucoins and paid events.
That "Core Systems" stuff Methais mentioned.
Most of the "tier unlock" system on scripted weapons are hard if not impossible to get. "Auction level unlocks" might as well not exist for how rare they are. Simu LOVES their "carrot on a stick" and "bait and switch" tactics. Of course, you can ease that problem with enough money.
The 1206 SK item is the best example I can think of where Simu put money gain over the players. Monks can't use 1206, Savants are not on the table, but lets create 1206 to make some money at the next paid festival.


I am not usually like this with other games I play online. I can usually give companies the benefit of the doubt but I can't for Simu. They are a special level of greedy that actively harms their own game. Any time they do something, I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop. But lets not kid ourselves, the shoe DOES drop more often than not.


The 1206 SK item is the best example I can think of where Simu put money gain over the players. Monks can't use 1206, Savants are not on the table, but lets create 1206 to make some money at the next paid festival.
Hey now - 1206.....

It was posted that the spell "had been" created well before it was implemented and that Estlid (I think he was the one that said this) finally wanted to release the spell as it was. So, as you can see, the spell was developed a long? time ago, but just never released. For some reason I don't believe the GM that said this. Also, it was pretty shitty to release a spell to a class that just cannot use it without great sacrifice in training and only have a weak ass version of the spell to not even make it a worthwhile sacrifice since they can only 1x SA.

It was then even shittier to have them slap 1206 SK into DR to make money off it.

The actually purged some of the older posts on the official forums out of nowhere. Most of what they removed was criticism over simucoins and paid events.

As for the old forums and purged posts - yeah, they did a pretty good job of dumping a lot of stuff from it as they "migrated" posts to the archived folder.
I've complained to the GMs that were in charge of migrating old forum posts to the archived section about how complete folders were still missing and lots of posts from other folders were missing....only to be told multiple times that all posts were moved over and nothing was lost or left behind. That's just bullshit since I actually scoured the archived folder - every single page and post in every single folder and I cannot find the any of old posts I was looking for to use as references.


They took over the Gemstone 4 reddit and police it the same way they do the official forums.

GSIV has a reddit page? Also, people still use reddit?
....okay, I don't use reddit.
I also don't like using Discord. I've spoken out numerous times on the officials (in a handful of different spots) about how GMs suck at using the officials and don't share info there. They all comment on Discord and very little of what they say actually makes it to the officials. I'm always met with a resounding "We read every post, blah, blah, blah. We do respond to posts and blah, blah, blah. Discord is easier to comment on since many people, including GMs can easily access it and blah, blah, blah."

I feel more info is being posted on the officials as of lately by the GMs, but then again, it's only because of new updates/systems they're implementing. So maybe it's just a mirage that it feels like they're being more active on the officials. I guess only time will tell.

[bluecenterlight]

I agree with ya Drumpel on the Discord posting not being on the officials. I wish they would post the info in both places, even if it's in a rando Discord forum thread.

[Gelston]

I honestly thought Jason/Coase was one of the more talented coders I ever worked with in GS and had a firm grasp of game mechanics and the long term development strategy.

Obviously, been awhile since I been behind the scenes. It would though almost be impossible to hide anything in GS coding as its nearly all transparent unless you're working with the billing tie-ins to the game and damn few were allowed to do that.

~Paul

It may just be their excuse. Or perhaps the "hiding" was just him saying leave this shit alone.

[Methais]

Being a good coder doesn’t disqualify someone from being toxic or whatever his problem was.

[Gelston]

Being a good coder doesn’t disqualify someone from being toxic or whatever his problem was.

He wasn't toxic. He just hate you specifically.

[Izzy]

Y'all are painting a pretty bleak version. I don't really understand the vitriol directed at optional spending. Being a business, it's smart for Simu to invest in as many revenue sources as possible. Nobody is forced to pay anything to reach cap (previously impossible before F2P accounts).

Also, on the subject of Coase loot nerf - while a bit underhanded in execution, at its core is pretty reasonable. Allowing the likes of Methais to exploit loot to an extreme due to a professional advantage in the zone isn't smart for the game as a whole. Something that should've been considered/addressed beforehand? Sure, in a perfect world. But I think most reasonable people would understand that perfect balance is impossible, and that foresight is very difficult. That doesn't mean you just let exploitation continue unchecked.

Consider the other side of the coins:

1) While there certainly are a lot more money centric items (DR items, unlock tier systems, etc) - the fact remains that none of these are required to advance in the game. Instead, it provides an avenue for *everyone* to get a powerful, scripted item that back in the day was reserved for the elite and uberwealthy. Once upon a time 5x was "rare" and desirable, times have changed. Conflating this with a "greedy money grab" is unhealthy.

2) Ascension creates a whole new dimension for growth, I can't comprehend how this could in any way be viewed as a negative. Especially when many people are running out of things to train in post cap. It creates vastly more value than a new capped hunting ground ever would.

The best part of GS is that the progress of your fellow players has zero impact on your ability to play/enjoy the game. If the Lormaeks of the world want to spend 27 grand on some boots, who cares? It doesn't break your game - let the whales be whales. They're a big reason we all get to enjoy a 30 year old game on relatively meager staff. Honestly, in the 6 months I've been back there has been an incredible amount of development turnaround. Not to mention a massive improvement in GM/player communications (mostly in the form of discord). Is everything perfect? Of course not - but expecting such is pretty absurd anyway. IMHO, current state of Elanthia is the best it has ever been, and I'm optimistic that it will continue to improve.

[Gelston]

Allowing the likes of Methais to exploit loot to an extreme due to a professional advantage in the zone isn't smart for the game as a whole. .

lol, the fucking thing didn't exist.

[Methais]

Y'all are painting a pretty bleak version. I don't really understand the vitriol directed at optional spending. Being a business, it's smart for Simu to invest in as many revenue sources as possible. Nobody is forced to pay anything to reach cap (previously impossible before F2P accounts).

Also, on the subject of Coase loot nerf - while a bit underhanded in execution, at its core is pretty reasonable. Allowing the likes of Methais to exploit loot to an extreme due to a professional advantage in the zone isn't smart for the game as a whole. Something that should've been considered/addressed beforehand? Sure, in a perfect world. But I think most reasonable people would understand that perfect balance is impossible, and that foresight is very difficult. That doesn't mean you just let exploitation continue unchecked.

Consider the other side of the coins:

1) While there certainly are a lot more money centric items (DR items, unlock tier systems, etc) - the fact remains that none of these are required to advance in the game. Instead, it provides an avenue for *everyone* to get a powerful, scripted item that back in the day was reserved for the elite and uberwealthy. Once upon a time 5x was "rare" and desirable, times have changed. Conflating this with a "greedy money grab" is unhealthy.

2) Ascension creates a whole new dimension for growth, I can't comprehend how this could in any way be viewed as a negative. Especially when many people are running out of things to train in post cap. It creates vastly more value than a new capped hunting ground ever would.

The best part of GS is that the progress of your fellow players has zero impact on your ability to play/enjoy the game. If the Lormaeks of the world want to spend 27 grand on some boots, who cares? It doesn't break your game - let the whales be whales. They're a big reason we all get to enjoy a 30 year old game on relatively meager staff. Honestly, in the 6 months I've been back there has been an incredible amount of development turnaround. Not to mention a massive improvement in GM/player communications (mostly in the form of discord). Is everything perfect? Of course not - but expecting such is pretty absurd anyway. IMHO, current state of Elanthia is the best it has ever been, and I'm optimistic that it will continue to improve.

My only problem with P2W is when they do things like they did with 1206 that clearly prioritize quick cash grabs over the game’s integrity, and nerfs to core game features just so they can sell it back to you for cash. Want to keep your old pre-Naijin +50 ranged bonus? Now you’re gonna pay cash for it so you can buy those 8-10x enchant potions, for example.

As for the loot nerf, why nerf only that area? The loot pressure system was working as intended. It’s not my (and other Confluence hunters) fault that most people, even other wizards, can’t survive the place. People would see my name in lights almost daily, multiple times on days the dice hated me extra hard. Supposedly I wasn’t the problem anyway, it was more the MA crews that would insta-wreck everything. But still, let the loot pressure system do its thing. That’s why they put it there. Want more people hunting the place? Make it less difficult. Problem solved and the loot would balance itself out.

The loot in there worked exactly the same as it did everywhere else. It was just insanely underhunted, because the place throws 3857393948 things at you that will kill you the whole time you’re in there. Got killed? Hope you have an alt that can rescue because nobody is coming to save you either.

That said, my biggest issue with the nerf was that it was a stealth nerf. Why the fuck hide shit like that, both from the players, as well as his own boss unless he knew it was some shady bullshit?

[Izzy]

My only problem with P2W is when they do things like they did with 1206 that clearly prioritize quick cash grabs over the game’s integrity, and nerfs to core game features just so they can sell it back to you for cash.

As for the loot nerf, why nerf only that area? The loot pressure system was working as intended. It’s not my (And other Confluence hunters) fault that most people, even other wizards, can’t survive the place. The loot in there worked exactly the same as it did everywhere else.

That said, my biggest issue with the nerf was that it was a stealth nerf. Why the fuck hide shit like that, both from the players, as well as his own boss unless he knew it was some shady bullshit?

Agreed on the stealth aspect, not the way to handle it in the slightest. I don't have an answer on how to fix loot distribution, and I certainly believe there should be a good balance on risk/reward - but I also know it's not good for the economy to have that kind of access to income either.

[Methais]

Agreed on the stealth aspect, not the way to handle it in the slightest. I don't have an answer on how to fix loot distribution, and I certainly believe there should be a good balance on risk/reward - but I also know it's not good for the economy to have that kind of access to income either.

The fix would be to make the area less stupid so that more people will hunt it. The loot would balance itself out over time.

Coase is just a cunt.

The nerf also solved nothing, because I still rake in just as much as before if not more. It just doesn’t all come from the Confluence anymore, but the reasons are no different. Just systems working as intended.

[Donquix]

The 1206 SK item is the best example I can think of where Simu put money gain over the players. Monks can't use 1206, Savants are not on the table, but lets create 1206 to make some money at the next paid festival.
Hey now - 1206.....

It was posted that the spell "had been" created well before it was implemented and that Estlid (I think he was the one that said this) finally wanted to release the spell as it was. So, as you can see, the spell was developed a long? time ago, but just never released. For some reason I don't believe the GM that said this. Also, it was pretty shitty to release a spell to a class that just cannot use it without great sacrifice in training and only have a weak ass version of the spell to not even make it a worthwhile sacrifice since they can only 1x SA.

It wasn't created, it was designed. He put in all the work to make it, just to sell it. I don't even have a problem with that in theory, as long as it had some marginal use for monks (for which there were MULTIPLE suggestions that were all reasonable, easy to implement things that still would have been niche at best)

It's stupid to have ANY spell someone is expected to train (which monks even as "squares" absolutely are) they can't use. Justifying it with "but 409 and warriors!" is ridiculous for a lot of reasons.

[Skeletor]

I honestly thought Jason/Coase was one of the more talented coders I ever worked with in GS and had a firm grasp of game mechanics and the long term development strategy.

Obviously, been awhile since I been behind the scenes. It would though almost be impossible to hide anything in GS coding as its nearly all transparent unless you're working with the billing tie-ins to the game and damn few were allowed to do that.

~Paul

There was always something in the back of my mind saying, “hold up, what if Coase was the good guy in all this?” That is Wyrom, Estild and crew wanted to take the ship to Warp 9 Microtrans, sellout the game till it blows up and Coase was like , “No sir, I would not be part of any of this.” And Wyrom was like, “OK, see ya!”

[Methais]

It wasn't created, it was designed. He put in all the work to make it, just to sell it. I don't even have a problem with that in theory, as long as it had some marginal use for monks (for which there were MULTIPLE suggestions that were all reasonable, easy to implement things that still would have been niche at best)

It's stupid to have ANY spell someone is expected to train (which monks even as "squares" absolutely are) they can't use. Justifying it with "but 409 and warriors!" is ridiculous for a lot of reasons.

Justifying it with “if Savants did exist, they could use it” like Estild did was even worse. :lol:

[Skeletor]

The fix would be to make the area less stupid so that more people will hunt it. The loot would balance itself out over time.

Coase is just a cunt.

The nerf also solved nothing, because I still rake in just as much as before if not more. It just doesn’t all come from the Confluence anymore, but the reasons are no different. Just systems working as intended.

You have to feel some sort of satisfaction though. The lead coder essentially nerfed, hid, and eventually got fired over because you were just too damn good at the game.

[Taernath]

If the Lormaeks of the world want to spend 27 grand on some boots, who cares? It doesn't break your game - let the whales be whales

People have mentioned the 1206 fiasco, but there was also a ranged quiver released a while ago (pre ranged rework) that removed a lot of the tedium and annoyances associated with ranged. That one really, really pissed me off, that you were expected to shell out money for an almost necessary QOL improvement. Now, I can't tell you if that was always the plan - to release this item and follow up a while later with an actual ranged rework for the masses or whatever- but for a long while the majority of development seemed to be focused on items for festivals. That's how you hurt the game.

[Gelston]

People have mentioned the 1206 fiasco, but there was also a ranged quiver released a while ago (pre ranged rework) that removed a lot of the tedium and annoyances associated with ranged. That one really, really pissed me off, that you were expected to shell out money for an almost necessary QOL improvement. Now, I can't tell you if that was always the plan - to release this item and follow up a while later with an actual ranged rework for the masses or whatever- but for a long while the majority of development seemed to be focused on items for festivals. That's how you hurt the game.

I wouldn't be against them selling features that later become free for the masses later. You basically pay to test, knowing that it is going to be a common, free thing later.

[Methais]

You have to feel some sort of satisfaction though. The lead coder essentially nerfed, hid, and eventually got fired over because you were just too damn good at the game.

Simu has been following me around nerfing all the good shit I find or figure out since the 90s.

Charge Item & Mana Leech’s simultaneous nerfs were probably the most impactful. All because Celtic (who owned or had access to a private workshop at the time under the old INFUSE enchant system) was butthurt that I was charging ruby amulets and blue crystals in Shadow Valley while using the endless supply of pookas and shadow mares (which swarmed at the time, no idea if it does today) as effective unlimited mana batteries.

It still required a good amount of effort, as Lich or PsiNet didn’t exist yet and all I used were macros.

I don’t think it was the Confluence thing that did Coase in though. He was still around a good while after all that came out. But he was apparently a huge stonewall for game dev in general.

[Izzy]

People have mentioned the 1206 fiasco, but there was also a ranged quiver released a while ago (pre ranged rework) that removed a lot of the tedium and annoyances associated with ranged. That one really, really pissed me off, that you were expected to shell out money for an almost necessary QOL improvement. Now, I can't tell you if that was always the plan - to release this item and follow up a while later with an actual ranged rework for the masses or whatever- but for a long while the majority of development seemed to be focused on items for festivals. That's how you hurt the game.

I have been an archer since I first created him 18+ years ago, there's absolutely nothing required about any of the special archery gear. A few simple macros solved everything.

The ranged overhaul's only shortcoming, in my opinion, is that it overly catered to the super whales. In the end, everyone gained potential, and those who already had uber archery items got them buffed. It opened up opportunities for archers to explore some scripts that were previously inaccessible too, like GEF. People just get stuck too heavily on "it has always been this way" as the appropriate measuring point, rather than observing obvious imbalance in favor of the system in comparison to other forms of combat. Change, while sometimes difficult, isn't always a bad thing.

[Taernath]

I have been an archer since I first created him 18+ years ago, there's absolutely nothing required about any of the special archery gear. A few simple macros solved everything.

So have I. That doesn't change the fact that archery was always an awkward-to-use system that required macros to make it accessible.

[Gelston]

So have I. That doesn't change the fact that archery was always an awkward-to-use system that required macros to make it accessible.

Better than thrown! I'd honestly like to see ranged and thrown moved to their own combat system, like brawling was.

[Donquix]

Simu has been following me around nerfing all the good shit I find or figure out since the 90s.

Charge Item & Mana Leech’s simultaneous nerfs were probably the most impactful. All because Celtic (who owned or had access to a private workshop at the time under the old INFUSE enchant system) was butthurt that I was charging ruby amulets and blue crystals in Shadow Valley while using the endless supply of pookas and shadow mares (which swarmed at the time, no idea if it does today) as effective unlimited mana batteries.

It still required a good amount of effort, as Lich or PsiNet didn’t exist yet and all I used were macros.

I don’t think it was the Confluence thing that did Coase in though. He was still around a good while after all that came out. But he was apparently a huge stonewall for game dev in general.

That's actually really funny, and yes shadow valley does still swarm fierce. It still is my goto for stockpiling favor in the undead gap, if you can't just hit up a reim or whatever.


People have mentioned the 1206 fiasco, but there was also a ranged quiver released a while ago (pre ranged rework) that removed a lot of the tedium and annoyances associated with ranged. That one really, really pissed me off, that you were expected to shell out money for an almost necessary QOL improvement. Now, I can't tell you if that was always the plan - to release this item and follow up a while later with an actual ranged rework for the masses or whatever- but for a long while the majority of development seemed to be focused on items for festivals. That's how you hurt the game.

I never even understood the value in compart quivers. They were neat, but it didn't feel like it solved any of the ranged annoyances really for me. Gather or whatever but, didn't seem worth it at all. Those things ended up way net positive getting all the annoying parts of ranged fixed, and getting a minor bane out of it though. I don't think there was any thought put into that, Avaluka (not a systems dev) wanted to make a cool ranged item that fixed some of the annoyances to a degree, so she did. Naijin came on staff and rage coded the dumb stuff out of ranged and its core. It was just unfortunate timing.

[Taernath]

Better than thrown! I'd honestly like to see ranged and thrown moved to their own combat system, like brawling was.

Maybe, but mainly so that I don't have to keep seeing those slash crits that make it sound like you're bisecting someone with an arrow.

[Methais]

That's actually really funny, and yes shadow valley does still swarm fierce. It still is my goto for stockpiling favor in the undead gap, if you can't just hit up a reim or whatever.



I never even understood the value in compart quivers. They were neat, but it didn't feel like it solved any of the ranged annoyances really for me. Gather or whatever but, didn't seem worth it at all. Those things ended up way net positive getting all the annoying parts of ranged fixed, and getting a minor bane out of it though. I don't think there was any thought put into that, Avaluka (not a systems dev) wanted to make a cool ranged item that fixed some of the annoyances to a degree, so she did. Naijin came on staff and rage coded the dumb stuff out of ranged and its core. It was just unfortunate timing.

Next item on the Simucoin store: NERF INSURANCE

“For 5000 Simucoins per month, if your cool P2W item is nerfed, we will issue a partial* refund on whatever P2W currency you used to get it.”

*Amount to determined by Simutronics, and is not to exceed 1%.

[Izzy]

So have I. That doesn't change the fact that archery was always an awkward-to-use system that required macros to make it accessible.

Macros being "required" and QoL items being "required" are very different. Most people use macros for combat anyway, so it's hardly a significant departure.

[Izzy]

That's actually really funny, and yes shadow valley does still swarm fierce. It still is my goto for stockpiling favor in the undead gap, if you can't just hit up a reim or whatever.



I never even understood the value in compart quivers. They were neat, but it didn't feel like it solved any of the ranged annoyances really for me. Gather or whatever but, didn't seem worth it at all. Those things ended up way net positive getting all the annoying parts of ranged fixed, and getting a minor bane out of it though. I don't think there was any thought put into that, Avaluka (not a systems dev) wanted to make a cool ranged item that fixed some of the annoyances to a degree, so she did. Naijin came on staff and rage coded the dumb stuff out of ranged and its core. It was just unfortunate timing.

The net result was still a pretty neat new ranged item, with smart targeting and banes. Fortunate timing - upgrade something from fluff to functional.

[Taernath]

Macros being "required" and QoL items being "required" are very different. Most people use macros for combat anyway, so it's hardly a significant departure.

What I said was "almost necessary" for the quiver. But yes, macros or scripts were "required" for ranged unless you are a data entry cyborg that doesn't care about having fun.

[Gelston]

What I said was "almost necessary" for the quiver. But yes, macros or scripts were "required" for ranged unless you are a data entry cyborg that doesn't care about having fun.

You think GS is about fun?

[Hightower]

Simu has been following me around nerfing all the good shit I find or figure out since the 90s.

Charge Item & Mana Leech’s simultaneous nerfs were probably the most impactful. All because Celtic (who owned or had access to a private workshop at the time under the old INFUSE enchant system) was butthurt that I was charging ruby amulets and blue crystals in Shadow Valley while using the endless supply of pookas and shadow mares (which swarmed at the time, no idea if it does today) as effective unlimited mana batteries.

It still required a good amount of effort, as Lich or PsiNet didn’t exist yet and all I used were macros.

I don’t think it was the Confluence thing that did Coase in though. He was still around a good while after all that came out. But he was apparently a huge stonewall for game dev in general.

I'll claim partial responsibility on rapid fire, but they actually made it better in several ways. So, I can't complain!

[Taernath]

You think GS is about fun?

GS is about smashing your dick with ever-increasingly large rocks, c'mon, everyone knows that.

[Gelston]

GS is about smashing your dick with ever-increasingly large rocks, c'mon, everyone knows that.

Again, you think GS is about fun?

[Winter]

As for the loot nerf, why nerf only that area? The loot pressure system was working as intended.

I'm going to stick my neck out and say every account and character has a soft cap on loot regardless of loot pressure, and I'm going to say it was implemented around the same time the uncapped loot perk was removed from this list of benefits https://www.play.net/gs4/signup/subscribe.asp.

[Hymore246]

Thrown is a completely usable and valid hunting style...

If you have a returner or a chain spear.

[Orthin]

Thrown is a completely usable and valid hunting style...

If you have a returner or a chain spear.

I carried around 5 handaxes with various flares and just had a recover hurl script and it worked pretty nicely. I didn't mess it with prior to the recover hurl verb but when they introduced it I gave it a test on my rogue and enjoyed it and didn't have any noticeable issues with it. That kind of management may not be ideal but I felt it easier to manage than arrows

[Donquix]

I carried around 5 handaxes with various flares and just had a recover hurl script and it worked pretty nicely. I didn't mess it with prior to the recover hurl verb but when they introduced it I gave it a test on my rogue and enjoyed it and didn't have any noticeable issues with it. That kind of management may not be ideal but I felt it easier to manage than arrows

It's still shit but yeah, you can totally do it now without really much issue. 3 weapons and a warrior sheath is all you need.

i still really hope one day, it can get a proper review. That was on the table until ranged people went full Karen.

[Hymore246]

It's still shit but yeah, you can totally do it now without really much issue. 3 weapons and a warrior sheath is all you need.

i still really hope one day, it can get a proper review. That was on the table until ranged people went full Karen.

Good to hear. At least progress is being made.

[Methais]

Again, you think GS is about fun?

https://media1.tenor.com/images/dbc2525fd40db776643e7093057033b8/tenor.gif?itemid=5332816

[Methais]

I'm going to stick my neck out and say every account and character has a soft cap on loot regardless of loot pressure, and I'm going to say it was implemented around the same time the uncapped loot perk was removed from this list of benefits https://www.play.net/gs4/signup/subscribe.asp.

I'm too lazy to go into details, but I can pretty much guarantee there's no cap.

[Winter]

I'm too lazy to go into details, but I can pretty much guarantee there's no cap.

After about 4 boost major boost loots the treasure drops by like a third to a half, loot with a different character on a different account in the same area and low and behold the treasure shoots back up again for about another million in treasure and then it drops again significantly , switch the looter again oh would you look at that it's gone up again.

[m444w]

After about 4 boost major boost loots the treasure drops by like a third to a half, loot with a different character on a different account in the same area and low and behold the treasure shoots back up again for about another million in treasure and then it drops again significantly , switch the looter again oh would you look at that it's gone up again.

i've actually also noticed this the past couple early morning farming sessions.

[Alashir]

It's still shit but yeah, you can totally do it now without really much issue. 3 weapons and a warrior sheath is all you need.

i still really hope one day, it can get a proper review. That was on the table until ranged people went full Karen.

So tru

[Methais]

After about 4 boost major boost loots the treasure drops by like a third to a half, loot with a different character on a different account in the same area and low and behold the treasure shoots back up again for about another million in treasure and then it drops again significantly , switch the looter again oh would you look at that it's gone up again.

I thought you were talking about the game in general. If you just meant Confluence, then yeah you're correct.

If you did mean in a general sense, my average day would indicate otherwise, even if I don't visit the Confluence at all that day. It actually seems to get better after work on a lot of days, but is still pretty good while I'm at work during the day too.

I will say that I have noticed loot boosts have sucked balls a lot lately whether I'm in Rift, Confluence, etc., and I'm barely pulling in more than I would pull in without a boost running, so there might be something fucked with loot boosts.

[Winter]

so there might be something fucked with loot boosts.

That's probably it.

[Methais]

That's probably it.

I say that and ran a boost in the Confluence this morning and it seemed noticeably better. Not quite as good as I was used to, but less shitty than it has been.