What is the right thing?

[Edaarin]

Here's the scenario.

My finance professor isn't the most tactful person in the world. In fact, he may actually be the most condescending, arrogant man I've ever met in my life. He's absolutely brilliant, but he intimidates the hell out of my class.

In the past week, he has successfully mocked a Chinese student's accent, called one girl a housewife, and stated that he would like to fire some of the "incompetent" faculty in the building. It's reached the point where my peers are afraid to participate in class. I spent half an hour this afternoon listening to a girl just go off about him; the tears did not stop for a single minute.

I've been thinking about this to damn near distraction all day. It got to the point where I got lost jogging in the afternoon because I couldn't stop thinking about anything else to realize where the hell I was going. So, I've written the following e-mail to him...I haven't sent it though. I feel like it's the right thing to do, because no one else is going to call this guy out. At the same time, it might single me out as a target to ream.

Dear Professor XXX,

I wanted to let you know that I thought this morning's class was frustrating for a lot of us. After block, I was discussing the case with some of my classmates, and there were a few things that went on that we were a little concerned with. I’m not sure how to go about addressing them, so please forgive me if this e-mail appears blunt; it's late and I'm kind of tired to be thinking about phrasing.

When you were sitting next to Patrick during the first half of class, it appeared to me that you were discussing other students' comments with him. I don't know if that's the case; for all I know it could have been regarding his projections, but that's the image that came off to me and the others. To be quite frank, many of my peers are already hesitant to offer their thoughts for fear of being grilled on their assumptions, and the possibility of having their comments analyzed and discussed between teacher and student is not making it any easier.

I spoke to AAAA during the break today, and although I'm sure that you didn't intend it to do so, the comment you made to her about being a housewife in Hershey, PA was hurtful to her.

During the American Chemical Case, I may have misheard, but I thought I heard you repeat something CHINESE GUY said in a mock accent, which if true is just not something I expect from a professor.

We may not make the greatest assumptions or come up with the most vivid descriptions/explanations, but we truly are doing the best that we can. I understand that it's frustrating that we don't always pick up on things as quickly as some of our more financially-adept friends, but not everyone has the aptitude that they do. I'm not as perceptive or as proficient as they are, but even so I spent close to 3 hours in the Main Lab explaining how to do the valuation for American Chemical to four of my classmates. On Sunday night, three different people called me for help on the Hershey Case. I want you to know that we are putting time and thought in these cases, even if it doesn’t always show in discussion.

I know that it's usually the same people raising their hands to participate. YYYY and I both had our hands raised during the last 20 minutes of the Hershey case, and I especially wanted to comment on the growth rates (because of the huge effect that varying rates had, I ran three different projections for 2%, 4%, and 5%, and found that the value for Hershey was somewhere around 6B, 9B, and 14B depending on which growth rate was used). Instead, it was the same people that had been called on all morning, to the point where XXXX deferred when called on to allow YYYY a chance to speak.

I don't mean for this to sound like an attack, but it's reached the point where a lot of us are hesitant to offer any contributions to the discussion, or are worried about being cold called. I'm not worried about either personally, because I've already done somewhat similar calculations in 372. I know that when you use sarcasm you're just trying to prod us in the right direction, but for some students it's hurting more than it's helping.

To be completely honest, I'm not getting all that I feel I could be getting from case discussions at times. They get out of hand at times, and it's getting to the point where it's the norm to take the position that, "sometimes you just have to shout it out." It's a little frustrating, because I know that almost everyone did at least a little prep work for the case, yet only a handful of people are talking.

I'm sorry for the length of this e-mail, but I've been thinking pretty much all day how to approach this situation. I do believe that you are a brilliant professor, and there are times where I learn more in an hour of ICE than in a week of Comm 372. At the same time, it's just frustrating for me, and I understand the material; for some of my peers, it's either a total mystery or they're dreading getting hammered when called on.

- Vinh XXXX

[Ravenstorm]

If you send it, make certain you CC yourself so you have a sent copy in case you suddenly get failed. Also, does this guy have tenure? Do you know anyone who has already had him as a professor in the past to see if he has done similar things? There are a lot of variables.

Raven

[Edaarin]

I'm not trying to get him fired or anything, I'm just trying to get him to not be an asshole. I'm 99.9% sure he's tenured.

As for the other, I'm going to find out tomorrow.

[AnticorRifling]

I'd BCC someone else who's on staff. Like student relations or someone on your campus that handles such things.

[DianaBanana]

I wouldnt send the letter. I'd go to the Dean or to student relations. Sending that letter is just going to make trouble for yourself. What I would do is for the next week or so make a log of all the innapropriate things he says and then present it to the proper people. I'd get a few other students to make their own logs as well.

[Jazuela]

I agree with Diana Banana on this. "Political correctness" aside (since I personally think that's all hogwash) - taking potshots at a Chinese student is totally unprofessional, as is referring to a female student in class as a housewife (well, unless she really is a housewife I guess).

If the teacher is incapable of conducting his classes in a professional manner and treat his students as students rather than victims, then he has no business teaching the class until he learns some manners.

I'd go to the Dean of Academic Affairs and/or the Dean of Students with a list of complaints, giving quotes and examples of what's going on, when, and in what context. Let the Deans know that you want his behavior corrected. A list of complaints doesn't do much good without a request for action.

If he has tenure, you can rest assured he won't be fired (at least not right away). He'll be ordered to shape up, at the most. At the least, the Dean will send someone to audit the class and find out *officially* what's going on in it.

[Parkbandit]

You are just asking for trouble by involving yourself directly. Go to the Dean and voice your issues about him. Since he's tenured, he can pretty much do anything he pleases.. including fail you.

[longshot]

DON'T SEND IT!

It's suicide.

Don't ever put anything like that in writing. If it's that important, speak to him personally. Don't say it offends you, but say that you were worried about some of the other students or some bullshit. Even then, that's risky. Just play the game.

Just be sure to know your shit when called on. Don't try to be a hero. I can't express this enough.

I'm sure there's some law students here that can share stories of having there assholes torn apart a la the socratic method. It's just the way the prof chooses to run his class.

If you do get torn into, don't get standoffish... take the "Thank you sir. May I have another!" approach.

[Numbers]

Agree with what others have said.

You and a few other students go to the dean and explain calmly what your problems are. Be rational about it, don't make it sound like a whinefest. If the dean can't do anything about it, go higher up.

[peam]

http://www.door90.com/sirhc/images/brass%20knuckles%201.jpg

[Parkbandit]

LOL.

And the Award for Best Response Ever goes to:

:drumroll:

Peam and the picture of the brass knuckles!

[Atlanteax]

Agreed, take the case to the Dean and others.

They likely won't fire him, but will ensure that he modifies his teaching style. If he persists in being a jackass, then they will probably find some way to fire him.

[SpunGirl]

I agree with most others. Take it to this professor's department head, the dean, whoever. If your U has an Ombuds office that might be an option, but I found them ineffective at best at NAU.

-K

[Xandalf]

I've actually had a similar experience with a professor. Rather than send him an e-mail, my class developed a very different strategy.

First let me explain that it's my business honors class, and we've all been in the same classes for four semesters now...we know each other pretty well. When our professor this semester began making similar comments to those you described, we began to make similar ones back to him.

Now I'm not talking about being obnoxious to your professor. That's always a bad idea. But simply taking remarks he makes in class then repeating them later at appropriate times... it's often pure genius. It actually has worked very very well and the class is now one I truly look forward to going to for the discussions we have.

Good luck though.

EDIT: If you want to go to the Dean, wait until the end of the semester. Grades are still changable then if that's a concern.

[Edited on 4-5-2005 by Xandalf]

[Gan]

I agree with Longshot on this one. We've modified a tenured prof's attitude by actually having an auditor sit in. He was made aware of why his class was being audited and word got out to his peers which embarrased him (according to his master's assistant).

Sending the email, while is upright and honest will only put a huge red X on you for a target. Pull him aside if you want to talk directly but do not leave him with proof and be prepared for the consequences as he sends his wrath your way.

If all else fails, Peam's suggestion looks very attractive.

[Killer Kitten]

I agree with what most of the others here have said. Sending that email or going to that professor first is academic suicide.

I once had a professor who really hated white people. Kind of wierd, because he was white himself, but he would spend his class time going off on how whites (and Asians for some reason) ruled this country and engaged in consipracies to keep the black man down. He lectured endlessly in favor of more affirmitive action programs and breaks for black students. This was at CUNY LaGuardia, which meant that most of the students in the class were black and this pissed them off a lot more than it irritated the white and Asian students. As one lady put it, 'I worked for everything I have and I don't need any Goddamned charity.'

When I sat down to take his final, I faced a moral choice. I could answer his questions with what I had learned from the textbook or I could pump his mindless self-hating drivel back at him.

Screw morals, I went for the A. And got it. Afterwards I wrote to the head of his department complaining about his obvious bigotry and the useless waste of space that the class was. No clue if they ever did anything about him or not, I'd fulfilled my Sociology requirement and chose another area of study for my remaining electives.

The cowards way out, perhaps, but I graduated with a 3.95 GPA. Damn that B in Microbiology!!!

[StrayRogue]

I'd speak to him, man to man. He might not be aware that his approach is hurting his teaching, hell it may even be a front. If he takes it badly or says to go fuck yourself, I'd probably go above his head and complain.

[Asha]

I agree with Stray. You should do so before someone else does, and you lose him as a teacher.
Or break his face.

[Gan]

A 10" Kbar buried into the middle of his desk before class would also have a calming effect on him. Make sure you wear surgical gloves so you dont leave prints though....

Originally posted by StrayRogue
I'd speak to him, man to man. He might not be aware that his approach is hurting his teaching, hell it may even be a front. If he takes it badly or says to go fuck yourself, I'd probably go above his head and complain.
:clap:

[Latrinsorm]

Guts > Grades

I agree with Stray. :twitch:

If all else fails, just pour some sugar in his gas tank or something. Do you really want to beat up an old guy? You'll get old goo on you.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Guts > Grades

I agree with Stray. :twitch:

If all else fails, just pour some sugar in his gas tank or something. Do you really want to beat up an old guy? You'll get old goo on you.

I'll disagree. It's simply not worth taking a chance with a tenured Professor who will now have a target to use at his whim. The only saving grace is that it is Finance.. so I will assume most of your grade is as subjective as say a language class.

Certainly you will feel good about yourself.. but is it worth an F in the class? How about a D or a C.

[Edaarin]

I ended up not sending that e-mail. I'm so grateful to one of my friends for making me wait a day before even thinking about talking to the guy, because I have no idea what kind of shit I would have been talking.

I did get some advice from another professor on that teaching team, who told me to chill for a few more days since I was still clearly pissed. I also got some really good advice about what to talk about and what not to bring up; since it didn't happen to me I shouldn't address the racist/sexist implications either, I guess.

I've got a meeting scheduled with him for Friday, so I guess I'll let you all know how it goes then.

[StrayRogue]

Good luck man.

[Skeeter]

guess what. college sucks sometimes. You get to deal with pompous assholes with napolean complexes. Suck it up, and talk about what an ass he is until you graduate. Then make fun of people you find out are in his class. It's the American way.

[Edited on 4-5-2005 by Skeeter]

[Wezas]

I don't know a good/easy way of doing it - but having some kind of sheet with signatures might help. So that he knows that it's not just you who is offended.

But again, I can't think of an easy/right way of doing that.

[Gan]

Sad to say that that behavior doesnt stop at college. You'll run into that attitude at work, only its a little more circumspect. There's legal remedies for this at work, too bad not for this at school.

[DeV]

I agree with the signature thing. If there are other students in the class that are being negatively affected by this professor and his teaching tactics you should see if others might lend some support by way of signing the letter you composed. Even if you decide to just send the letter to the Dean or whoever heads his department, if not himself, see if you can get the signatures to show that clearly, it is a problem not only affecting yourself.

[Apotheosis]

Edaarin, I am sure you wouldn't be the first nor the last student to complain about him.

In other words, here's the score:

1. if he's tenured, anything short of CRIMINAL behavior will only get him a slap on the wrist, at the most.

2. I would approach the dean or some other person, and explain to them your concerns about his behavior. That is really all you can do.. if you have other students who have a problem, get them to document their problems.
At that point, the group of you can collectively bring this issue to a dean and or someone in a position of authority over this person.

3. Finally, I wouldn't expect much of an outcome from doing the above. just cover your ass, but stand up for what you think is right, direct confrontation is bad.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Certainly you will feel good about yourself.. but is it worth an F in the class? How about a D or a C. Edaarin getting an F results in the Dean getting a call. To me, it's always better to talk to someone to their face first, then go to authority later, even when it's very likely the person is liable to brush off your concerns.

[xtc]

I find some Professors to be the most arrogant assholes in the world. Rarely are they aware how big an asshole they are.

I think it is smart that you have chosen not to send that email. I would get the support of numerous students on this so it isn't just you against him. I also would speak to the Dean.

A while back I ran an ad to hire an expert in supply chain consulting in the local paper. I received several resumes and one course description from a Professor at a local University. He had simply photocopied the course description for a course he taught in supply chain management and logistics. A few days later he called me up asking why he hadn't been called in for an interview. I told him because he failed to send a resume. He went into a tirade about how he is the expert at the university on supply chain management and how my firm would be lucky to have him. I informed that he hadn’t taken the time or care to put together a resume. Additionally he lived his entire life in Academia without any real world experience. I told him that as a management consultant dealing with customers was a key part of the job and that his attitude didn’t speak well of his interpersonal skills. At this point he blew and told me that he was not without influence in this city and that I would regret my actions. The man was a pompous fuckin ass.

[Divinity]

I suggest a general letter listing what he's done with what everyone is concerned about and then the signatures of the students.

Good thinking about not sending the e-mail, but I did pick something up from it. Do not say I "think" you said this, or give any doubt to what you've seen or heard. Be concrete in your letter, or it's going to be just accusations and not a statement.

[Apotheosis]

If you do decide to go the non-confrontational way, do not accuse, condemn, or have an opinion.. ask him using questions..


Dear Prof,

i am in your economics class, etc.. blha blah blah.
While I am in no way attempting to be accusatory, inflammatory, I do have some questions about your method of teaching in class. Why do you choose to act <insert concern here>. blah blah blah


Thank you for your time,

blha blha blah

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Divinity
Good thinking about not sending the e-mail, but I did pick something up from it. Do not say I "think" you said this, or give any doubt to what you've seen or heard. Be concrete in your letter, or it's going to be just accusations and not a statement.

I was thinking that as well when reading his initial e-mail. Too much room for doubt allowed.

[Apotheosis]

Originally posted by Skeeter
guess what. college sucks sometimes. You get to deal with pompous assholes with napolean complexes. Suck it up, and talk about what an ass he is until you graduate. Then make fun of people you find out are in his class. It's the American way.

[Edited on 4-5-2005 by Skeeter]
:lol:
Yeah, in all reality, thats what I do with shithead professors

[Tsa`ah]

Academic history and GPA, if sound and consistent, are normally good tools to call for an audit/investigation of any tenured professor.

Both my wife and I had experiences in college with such professors. The road I always took was to look at the college as a business and I as the customer.

On two occasions I laid it out very simply for two different professors. I was in the class to learn and earn the credit hours, not to listen to rants and childish insults. If she/he could not understand that people like me made it possible for socially inept people like him/her to earn a steady paycheck, I would use whatever means at my disposal to inhibit that paycheck. No tenured professor wants to be audited ... especially if they have managed to bully or fail good students over petty BS.

My wife went the dean route in grad school with a black racist professor that constantly ripped any non-black student and doled out praise and recommendation to any black student. She did this by taping lectures and getting second opinions on completed projects from other professors.

Taking a step back and cooling off is always the best thing to do. All advice aside, I'm sure you'll be able to come up with a solution.

[Forged]

Good plan on not sending that e-mail. You'd only have dicked yourself over.

If the guy's antics continue, like many have already said on this thread, go ahead and go over his head. There isn't much to be gained by confronting an obviously egotistical person up front.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
The road I always took was to look at the college as a business and I as the customer.
:yes:

Sums up my thoughts perfectly.

[SpunGirl]

People who have advised getting the input of others are correct. I wrote an email to the head of the Soc department at NAU about a horrible professor. The reply was basically that they were concerned, but since some of the incidents I had cited had not happened directly to me, they couldn't take everything into account.

Going with three people, or five, to talk to whoever is always better than one.

-K

Man, I can't wait to go to college

[Soulpieced]

She did this by taping lectures and getting second opinions on completed projects from other professors.

.

Genius.