My boring Mexico spring break.

[Shari]

The only positive thing I got out of this whole trip was a nice tan, and a slight buzz.

So back in December my mother invited me to go with her and 5 other families that we party with down to Rockypoint. Scott couldn't get the week off since he had taken all his vacation days on deer and elk hunting. (Damned redneck) After some persuasion (and promising not to whore myself out...where is the trust!?!) he finally allowed me to go.

Let me tell you how much it fucking SUCKS to hang out with a bunch of highschool kids. (My sisters "trendy" lot of popular disrespectful idiots.)

Long story short, I spent most of the time pissed at them as the boys let themselves into our room, raiding our beer and our food. My mom went spastic, one kid got mouthy and we almost got into a fight, lovely, eh?

I learned to play volleyball and recently discovered that blanco(white) tequila leaves no hangover which is fucking awesome.

The day before I was supposed to leave my crazy redhead friend (crazy as in she'd likely offer to have a 3-way with me) was going to meet me to go to Baja (recently beat out Mannie's as the "place to be") 15 dollar wristband all you can drink.

WELL...I never ended up meeting up with her and got stuck going to Mannies with my sister and her friend and after having my ass grabbed multiple times by god-knows-what, being dry-humped by nasty mexican guys, and having my boob groped by one of them I had enough.

Nextime, I go with people who can say other lines other than "Dude I'm so drunk" and "The bartender totally didn't card me!" and taking my fiancee so that way HE can grope, dry hump, and do whatever he damn well pleases without having to be harassed by nasty locals.

So these are some of the shots, the last two being right before we went out to go dancing (ie: violated). The last one I had to keep my sister in, I don't know what the fuck she was doing when the picture was taken but it looks hilarious.

[Sean]

Whose the blonde chick behind you?

[Shari]

My sister.

She's in the top and bottom picture, but on the bottom one her eyes are all huge and her lips are poofed out.

hahahahahahahaha

I was reading your post and I only saw the head shots of the people and I totally thought that dude was a chick. Also, is your crazy redhead friend hot? If so...hook it up

[Chadj]

Jesae's sister is hot.

She won't give me her SN. :(

Even though I'm totally depressed w/ lack of woman right now. :(

[Chadj]

Jesae's sister is hot.

She won't give me her SN. :(

Even though I'm totally depressed w/ lack of woman right now. :(

[Atlanteax]

How come you keep posting twice, Chadj? This is like the third or fourth time I noticed it.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Atlanteax
How come you keep posting twice, Chadj? This is like the third or fourth time I noticed it.

Quantity over quality.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Jesae
my crazy redhead friend (crazy as in she'd likely offer to have a 3-way with me)

Jesae + Redhead = My head asplode


I don't know what the fuck she was doing when the picture was taken but it looks hilarious.

It looks like a cardboard cutout of someone's head. Real fake looking in that pic.

[Parkbandit]

Why did you cut out all the sisters from the pics? THAT'S CENSORSHIP AND I WON'T STAND FOR IT.

Post the real pic back up dammit! I DEMAND IT.

[Parkbandit]

Er.. sorry, I had a Wezas moment there.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Er.. sorry, I had a Wezas moment there.

Listen here Sonny,

Er.. sorry, I had a PB moment there.

[Skeeter]

blah blah blah


Originally posted by Jesae
my crazy redhead friend (crazy as in she'd likely offer to have a 3-way with me)

blah blah blah

I think I pulled the most important thing from the post.

[AnticorRifling]

I wish I could go on spring break...........

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Why did you cut out all the sisters from the pics? THAT'S CENSORSHIP AND I WON'T STAND FOR IT.

Post the real pic back up dammit! I DEMAND IT.

Yea, we want to see the hot chicks! :yes:

I'll go on spring break with your sister any day.

- Arkans

[Skeeter]

I'll go on spring break with you and your redhead friend, or to the carwash or McDonalds or whatever.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Why did you cut out all the sisters from the pics? THAT'S CENSORSHIP AND I WON'T STAND FOR IT.

Post the real pic back up dammit! I DEMAND IT.

Republicans for ending censorship. Hot girls need to be viewed. Now there is a platform that might bring me back to the party.

Jesae your sister is cute.

I too would like to put my name down for the threesome with the redhead and another female.

[Vitruvian]

You should have gotten alot more out of that sweetie! You should be liberated right now. I remember when I went on spring break every year. I can tell you , I certainly got alot more out of it than a tan (not that I need one) and a slight buzz.

[Edited on 3-21-2005 by Vitruvian]

[Alarke]

Originally posted by Vitruvian
You should have gotten alot more out of that sweetie! You should be liberated right now. I remember when I went on spring break every year. I can tell you , I certainly got alot more out of it than a tan (not that I need one) and a slight buzz.

[Edited on 3-21-2005 by Vitruvian]
He also woke up in jail with a sore ass remembering how wonderful his night was.

[Vitruvian]

psss... Vitruvian whispers... "not funny".

[Shari]

Sorry boys, but all the other girls in those pictures are under the age of 17.

Arkans...I'd sooner let my sister bang Chadj than have you come within 100 feet of her.

If I can convince her to do it...perhaps my hot (yes she is hot) red-headed friend will allow me to post a snapshot of us smooching.

Your sister would love my style. Don't hate.

- Arkans

[Apotheosis]

Originally posted by Arkans
Your sister would love my style. Don't hate.

- Arkans

i think that's what she's afraid of

That works then!

- Arkans

[longshot]

Arkans, you might be exposed to the sun if you go on Spring Break...

Sun or not, us Eastern European folks are naturally pale. It sort of sucks, but it never worked against me.

- Arkans

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Jesae
If I can convince her to do it...perhaps my hot (yes she is hot) red-headed friend will allow me to post a snapshot of us smooching.

I have faith in your power of persuasion.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Jesae
If I can convince her to do it...perhaps my hot (yes she is hot) red-headed friend will allow me to post a snapshot of us smooching.

:clap::yes::wow::popcorn::thumbsup::heart::clap::l oveu::up::rah::drool::shibby::worship::cheers::fin gers::yes2::wow2::goodluck::thanx::bananahit:

I'll take the red-head if she is hotter than the blonde, but I love blondes. No one can resist my charms.

- Arkans

[Shari]

Sorry Arkans, both those girls go after the total antithesis of everything you project on these boards. I'm going to be really nice and leave it at that.

Keep telling yourself that. No one resists what I got.

- Arkans

[Latrinsorm]

Face it Arkans, not all girls love emo.

MAN YOUR JUST MAKING MY LIFE SUCK AND BE MORE DEPRESSING BY CALLING ME EMO! IM NOT EMO JUST NO ONE GETS ME!

- Arkans

[Edaarin]

Wait...you went with your mom...

...and she didn't mind under-17 kids drinking?

[Shari]

I have what most people call "a cool mom".

I think that constitutes a parent who can out-drink their college-attending children, smoke weed, and still execute fair judgements on the parenting as well.

Luckily, my mom never cared that myself, or any of my younger siblings drank so long as we: were at least 15, around for her to monitor our drinking, and had no intention of leaking this information to my dad.

Your mother was a hippy bum.

- Arkans

[Edaarin]

I don't know, that doesn't sound appealing to me. But that's just me, I guess.

[Shari]

Yeah, it does sound bad.

And yeah she was (is?) a total hippy. Not the dirty kind though, she showers and uses soap.

She's fucked up a lot in her life, and while I don't condone her pot-smoking ways, she is an adult and who am I to tell her how to live her life?

But, she was completely calm and collected when I told her I wanted to go on birth control, and has managed to keep a level head when I share stuff with her that would have my dad have a mental breakdown. She was (unlike most of my friends' parents) willing to listen to a situation without flying off the handle.

All teenagers are going to drink, I guess my mother was more comfortable letting us do it at the house where she could monitor without us being driven home by drunk friends, or getting into an accident ourselves.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Jesae
she showers and uses soap.Thank her for making the rest of us look bad. :(
All teenagers are going to drinkFalse.
she is an adult and who am I to tell her how to live her life?It all depends on how bad you think what she does is. There is a point (I hope) where what someone does is bad enough that you act, regardless of how old they are. I don't think smoking weed and being able to drink a lot is especially cool, but I wouldn't call the cops on her or anything.

[Brattt8525]

I don't think Child protective Services would think your mom was cool. Not that what anyone else says makes a difference to you, I just hope to high heaven you have more sense if you ever have children to NEVER repeat your mothers way of raising a child.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Brattt8525
I just hope to high heaven you have more sense if you ever have children to NEVER repeat your mothers way of raising a child.

And for that I can see your kids going to a party, getting drunk, getting pregnant, and driving home drunk.

Don't attack her mother like that just because it isn't exactly what you would do. If everyone followed the law line by line kids would eventually be exploding with rebellion and do even worse damage. You don't know what her life was like and, from what I can tell, at least one of her kids turned out just fine.

My dad let me have a few beers when I was 16/17. At our house - under his supervision. Am I a lush today? Am I out of control? No.

And in case any comments fall in my direction, I would have said this if it was anyone's mother.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Jesae
If I can convince her to do it...perhaps my hot (yes she is hot) red-headed friend will allow me to post a snapshot of us smooching.

STILL FUCKING WAITING ON THIS. WE DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR MOTHER DAMMIT.. JUST POST THE HOT PICS

Thanks in advance for your complete cooperation.

It's not illegal for children under 21 to drink in the home as long as they have the parent's permission/supervision.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Jesae
If I can convince her to do it...perhaps my hot (yes she is hot) red-headed friend will allow me to post a snapshot of us smooching.

STILL FUCKING WAITING ON THIS. WE DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR MOTHER DAMMIT.. JUST POST THE HOT PICS

Thanks in advance for your complete cooperation.

what PB said...........

[Apotheosis]

Originally posted by Tea & Strumpets
It's not illegal for children under 21 to drink in the home as long as they have the parent's permission/supervision.

Well, apparently you haven't noticed the people that get arrested for this _every year_ around HS prom, etc.

oh, and the law that state's that a person under the age of 21 shall not possess, consume, etc. alcohol..

Enough of that though, I think we all wanna see more hot pictures.

[Skeeter]

you can server you child alcohol in your home. The problem comes from serving other people's children alcohol in your home. Then it becomes Contributing.

[Wezas]

Scroll down to "World Drinking Ages" (http://www2.potsdam.edu/alcohol-info/LegalDrinkingAge.html)

The US is the only country with a 21+ drinking limit.

Closest other countries are:

Japan, Iceland, New Zealand (20)
South Korea (19)

The rest are all 18 or under.

That site is incorrect by saying there is no drinking age in Poland, it is, in fact, 18.

- Arkans

[Brattt8525]

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by Brattt8525
I just hope to high heaven you have more sense if you ever have children to NEVER repeat your mothers way of raising a child.

And for that I can see your kids going to a party, getting drunk, getting pregnant, and driving home drunk.

Don't attack her mother like that just because it isn't exactly what you would do. If everyone followed the law line by line kids would eventually be exploding with rebellion and do even worse damage. You don't know what her life was like and, from what I can tell, at least one of her kids turned out just fine.

My dad let me have a few beers when I was 16/17. At our house - under his supervision. Am I a lush today? Am I out of control? No.

And in case any comments fall in my direction, I would have said this if it was anyone's mother.

I am raising my children as my parents raised me, and they will not be driving and drinking no more then I or my siblings ever did.

As far as attacking her mother? I could have gone into great detail and been a reall asshole about what a jackass her mommy was to be smoking weed and letting her 15 year old drink at home. I don't buy the line about your not being bias and you would have felt the same way if it had been anyone else.

If you really agree that this is a fine way to raise a child, then I indeed feel sorry for you and any children you might have. What she described was something that could have had her children taken away from her. I like Jesae just fine, it was not an attack on her personally I am still baffled she would even mention it on the boards, my advice would be to delete it.

Woah, woah, let's back the train up here. How can anyone in their right mind defend this mother? She is completely unfit to raise children. Illegal substance abuse? Letting minors drink? Right, she's setting a great example. Not only that, but teaching the kids to basically keep things from their father. What a great family structure that is. Give me a fucking break, Child Services should have been involved in something like this.

- Arkans

[Keller]

My mother raised me in a similar fashion.

She was not retarded enough to think that kids in high school didn't drive around getting smashed because they had no where else to drink but in the safety of their own vehichles. However, my mom knowingly allowed me to have new years parties and a couple of random gets togethers where she would collect keys and set out sleeping bags.

She also explained to me that pot was not a terrible thing. She told me that it can drive down motivation and also get you in a trouble with the law -- but it's not even close to being as bad as hard drugs. Because of this perspective when I did try pot I remembered what she said and when my friends all started doing acid -- I got new friends.

There are different ways to raise kids, some being better than others. I think as long as the relationship is honest and trustworthy the kids will turn out alright.

[Brattt8525]

Well from listening to Wezas remarks to me he wants to give her a fucking mother of the year award. CPS would have a field day with this "cool" mom.

The thing is, it is every parents responsiblity to teach goods good judgement and part of good judgement is obeying laws and understand consequences. Teaching that smoking pot and alcohol is acceptable is neither of those. I'm sorry.

- Arkans

[DeV]

Originally posted by Arkans
Woah, woah, let's back the train up here. How can anyone in their right mind defend this mother? She is completely unfit to raise children.
- Arkans It's all a matter of personal perspective.

Teaching that breaking the law is okay in what perspective again?

- Arkans

[Parkbandit]

PLEASE START YOUR OWN DAMN TOPIC FOR THE GOOD AND BAD PARENTING SKILLS. THIS THREAD IS NOT THE PLACE FOR THAT DISCUSSION. THIS ONE IS RESERVED FOR PICTURES OF JESAE'S LESBIANIC MOMENT WITH HER HOT REDHEADED FRIEND.

THANK YOU.

That's just gross.

- Arkans

[Keller]

Originally posted by Arkans
The thing is, it is every parents responsiblity to teach goods good judgement and part of good judgement is obeying laws and understand consequences. Teaching that smoking pot and alcohol is acceptable is neither of those. I'm sorry.

- Arkans

Puritan values went out the window with the Elizabethan Compromise in the 19th century man. We no longer try to eradicate bad behavior but only control it through minimum punishments that deter the most would-be criminals.

The perfect anecdotal example is of course speeding. How many times did your parents speed with you in the car? I should report them to child protection services!!!

[Keller]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
PLEASE START YOUR OWN DAMN TOPIC FOR THE GOOD AND BAD PARENTING SKILLS. THIS THREAD IS NOT THE PLACE FOR THAT DISCUSSION. THIS ONE IS RESERVED FOR PICTURES OF JESAE'S LESBIANIC MOMENT WITH HER HOT REDHEADED FRIEND.

THANK YOU.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Arkans
The thing is, it is every parents responsiblity to teach goods good judgement and part of good judgement is obeying laws and understand consequences. Teaching that smoking pot and alcohol is acceptable is neither of those. I'm sorry.

- Arkans

I don't think I'd be serving my kids alcohol until they are 21, but it isn't illegal and the state can't do a damn thing about it as far as I can tell from reading the laws.

I've smoked pot, and it is far less debilitating than alcohol, in my opinion. (Jeez, I hope this quote doesn't come back to bite me in the ass when I run for president!) I have a hard time considering smoking weed to be a "criminal act" (even though it is) because it is far less harmful or dangerous than alcohol, which is perfectly legal.

Not puritanical. No need to go to the extreme at all. The problem is, using illegal substances and underage drinking can have huge impacts on any kid. Whether is be health, by the law, or with the school. Not only that, but it can get the parent in a ton of trouble as well. Good judgement is the key, not a high moral standing.

Unfortunately, I can't justify underage drinking and pot smoking as being "good judgement"

- Arkans

[Bobmuhthol]

Any mom that is known for her illegal activities involving herself and her children is good at neither life nor parenting.

You may have a hard time considering it a legal infraction, but our goverment doesn't. It's not up to you to determine what is and what isn't a law, unfortunately.

- Arkans

[Bobmuhthol]

<<I don't think I'd be serving my kids alcohol until they are 21, but it isn't illegal and the state can't do a damn thing about it as far as I can tell from reading the laws.>>

First of all, the people she was allowing to drink were not her children. Second, Mexico is not her house. There goes this entire defense.

<<I have a hard time considering smoking weed to be a "criminal act" (even though it is) because it is far less harmful or dangerous than alcohol, which is perfectly legal.>>

Sexual harassment is far less harmful than murder.

[Keller]

Originally posted by Arkans
Not puritanical. No need to go to the extreme at all. The problem is, using illegal substances and underage drinking can have huge impacts on any kid. Whether is be health, by the law, or with the school. Not only that, but it can get the parent in a ton of trouble as well. Good judgement is the key, not a high moral standing.

Unfortunately, I can't justify underage drinking and pot smoking as being "good judgement"

- Arkans

I think taking control of your childrens perspectives and perceptions of things like alcohol and pot is indeed good judgment. I would have definately done acid had my mother not been truthful with me.

Also, I've always done both my drinking and smoking in moderation because it was never a thrill to me because I was breaking rules. I was always just having a good time.

I thank my mother often for the way she raised me. She raised my sister the same way and she's never even tried pot. Being honest with your kids does not mean forcing drugs on them. It's about being proactive and taking control of their adolescent mischievious behavior. I wish more parents did it.

[HarmNone]

I don't think it's illegal for kids that age to drink in Mexico, so the whole argument about whether or not it's legal in the States is moot.

There is a huge difference in being truthful and honest and letting children consume alcohol when they are underage and smoking drugs.

- Arkans

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
First of all, the people she was allowing to drink were not her children. Second, Mexico is not her house. There goes this entire defense.

Sexual harassment is far less harmful than murder.

Jeez, Bob, I spend far too much time explaining simple things to you. I was referring to Jesae's mention of being allowed to drink while she was growing up.

In response to your point, what do US drinking laws have to do with Mexico?

In response to your paragraph, which I have to assume was meant to make some kind of point although I couldn't possibly fathom what it is, is impossible to respond to. Yes, I agree, murder is worse than sexual harassment. Is there supposed to be some kind of analogy in there or were you just throwing that in there because you wanted to get the word out?

My point was that weed is illegal, where alcohol is not. I think that weed is less harmful than alcohol, so I don't personally view someone that smokes weed as some kind of degenerate.

Perhaps your point was that sexual harassment is not as harmful as murder, so you feel sexual harassment should be legalized? Whatever your point is, you are obviously a dumbass.

[Edited on 3-24-2005 by Tea & Strumpets]

[Brattt8525]

He is far from a damn ass, he is making the same analogy as you but in a different way. Either way I think the point was just because it isn't as bad, that does not make it any less illegal.

If said mother was letting other kids not her own drink in Mexico, you can bet the same mother is letting them drink in her hole in the US still making it illegal.

Our job as parents is to protect our children not be their buddy friend and pal. Jesus I am still baffled that some of you find this kind of child rearing acceptable. I will not be handing my kids a drink until they are 21 and then by damned they better buy it themselves!.

[Brattt8525]

Originally posted by Brattt8525
He is far from a damn ass, he is making the same analogy as you but in a different way. Either way I think the point was just because it isn't as bad, that does not make it any less illegal.

If said mother was letting other kids not her own drink in Mexico, you can bet the same mother is letting them drink in her home in the US still making it illegal.

Our job as parents is to protect our children not be their buddy friend and pal. Jesus I am still baffled that some of you find this kind of child rearing acceptable. I will not be handing my kids a drink until they are 21 and then by damned they better buy it themselves!.

[Parkbandit]

The direction of this thread makes me sad.

Alot.

[Brattt8525]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
The direction of this thread makes me sad.

Alot.

The lack of lesbianizing pictures has made you sad, at least be truthful damnit.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Brattt8525

Our job as parents is to protect our children not be their buddy friend and pal. Jesus I am still baffled that some of you find this kind of child rearing acceptable. I will not be handing my kids a drink until they are 21 and then by damned they better buy it themselves!. I find numerous things about parenting and raising children to be baffling. I don't feel that her mothers actions concerning letting underage kids drink is acceptable one bit but that doesn't mean I feel her mother is unfit to parent.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<I don't think it's illegal for kids that age to drink in Mexico, so the whole argument about whether or not it's legal in the States is moot.>>

The question is not the legality of doing it in Mexico. Everyone in question returned to the United States. The mother is setting an example for the kids that should very much not happen considering where they live as opposed to where they are.

<<Jeez, Bob, I spend far too much time explaining simple things to you. I was referring to Jesae's mention of being allowed to drink while she was growing up.>>

Cool, the mother is still in the wrong for doing what she did. She didn't break the law when Jesae was growing up, that's really awesome.

<<In response to your point, what do US drinking laws have to do with Mexico?>>

If I start drinking in Mexico, there's a good chance I'll do it in the United States too. Nobody in question is from Mexico, or currently in Mexico.

<<Yes, I agree, murder is worse than sexual harassment. Is there supposed to be some kind of analogy in there or were you just throwing that in there because you wanted to get the word out?>>

To say marijuana is more tolerable because it does less damage is like praising sexual harassment because murder is worse.

<<My point was that weed is illegal, where alcohol is not. I think that weed is less harmful than alcohol, so I don't personally view someone that smokes weed as some kind of degenerate.>>

What you think makes this much difference, though:

<<Perhaps your point was that sexual harassment is not as harmful as murder, so you feel sexual harassment should be legalized? Whatever your point is, you are obviously a dumbass.>>

By your standards, it should be legalized, since it's not as bad as something else.

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
To say marijuana is more tolerable because it does less damage is like praising sexual harassment because murder is worse.


No, your analogy falls apart. I compared weed (illegal) to booze (legal). You compared sexual harassment (illegal) to murder (illegal). Can you see why you've picked a poor analogy?


Originally posted by BobmuhtholBy your standards, it should be legalized, since it's not as bad as something else.

No, that's your logic. I compared an activity that was illegal to a legal activity, and my opinion was that the legal activity was more harmful. I don't recall asking for marijuana to be legalized, I was just explaining why I don't automatically consider a pot-smoker to be a degenerate.

Personal question: You've posted about drinking yourself, where'd you get the booze? I hope your mom didn't allow you to drink, as that would mean she is the devil incarnate!

[Shari]

I'm making a new thread for this because I find it interesting.

Look for "Parenting"

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Jesae
I'm making a new thread for this because I find it interesting.

Look for "Parenting"

I'm making a new thread for this because I find it interesting.

Look for "Jesae's hot lesbian pics"

[Wezas]

Good, then we can use this thread to say:

Picture plz.

[Edited on 3-25-2005 by Wezas]

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Personal question: You've posted about drinking yourself, where'd you get the booze? I hope your mom didn't allow you to drink, as that would mean she is the devil incarnate!>>

She broke 0 laws in doing so. And that was half a bottle of beer because she was using it to cook.

The rest was stolen. I broke the law, not my parents.

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
She broke 0 laws in doing so. And that was half a bottle of beer because she was using it to cook.


I never said she broke the law, I said she must be the devil incarnate to teach her son that drinking beers at 15 is ok. By your logic ("If I start drinking in Mexico, there's a good chance I'll do it in the United States too.") she is teaching you all the wrong values and setting a horrible example.


Originally posted by BobmuhtholThe rest was stolen. I broke the law, not my parents.

Geez, she lets you drink half a beer and you run out and rob a liquor store for goodness' sakes!

[HarmNone]

>The question is not the legality of doing it in Mexico. Everyone in question returned to the United States. The mother is setting an example for the kids that should very much not happen considering where they live as opposed to where they are.<

Bob, are you trying to tell me that kids that age don't know the difference between what's legal in one country and not legal in another? I'm sorry, but I'm not buying it. Kids that age know that drinking, for them, is illegal in the United States. If they're going to do it, they're going to do it despite the legalities involved. They're perfectly capable of understanding that Mexico has different laws.

By drinking themselves, whether in the United States or Outer Slobovia, parents set an example. They also set an example by not drinking. Do the children of drinkers abstain? Yep. Do the children of non-drinkers drink? Yep. Do some kids who were allowed to drink very small amounts of alcohol as teens drink as adults? Yep. Do others raised the same way abstain? Yep.

Sometimes, your desire to argue outstrips your ability to keep it logical. ;)