Gemstone IV analysis (RM biased)

[Murrandii]

Introduction, let's understand each other with basics aspects:

In most games, you get the core Warrior, Healer, Mage.

Warrior could be declined in fighting capabilities (warrior) and other options like more secondary skills or different fight approch (ambush) (rogue).

Healer are your typical buffer that can HEAL or negative HEAL. They could be declined with buffers (Cleric) and healers (Empath)

Mage are your typical DPS dealers. They could be declined with DPS (wizard) and DOT ( sorcerer).

Ok, with this in mind. Let's compare GEMSTONE IV with his source of inspiration/Father … Rolemaster (second edition, the best) with a short analysis and let's try to narrow down the problem after the iterations below.


First iteration analysis (understanding the facts).

From rolemaster, there's 3 DOMAINES of "magic". There's ESSENCE which is the manipulation of the mana. There's "magic" coming from DIVINE entities and there's the PSYCHIC ability of people. And there's also a fourth DOMAINE which is ARMS.

Essence CAN'T be casted in ANYTHING higher than robe. DIVINE can't be casted with iron armor (chains or plates). Psychic cannot cast with helmets.

In rolemaster, you need to select a domaine or two (deux).

If you take only one "magic", you're a PURE. If you take only arms, you're a SQUARE.

If you take ARMS and a "magic" domaine, you are a SEMI. If you select Two (deux) "magic" domaine, you become a HYBRID.



Second iteration, about spell circles and getting list of spells.

From rolemaster, you got spell circles that got from level 1 to level 50 spells. But there's STEPS in learning them. More to come.

Every SEMI, PURE or HYBRID got their OWN spell circles. PURE and HYBRID can access to RESTRICTED (major in gemstone) circles. SQUARE, SEMI, HYBRID and PURE got access to their specific OPEN DOMAINE circles (essence, divine, psychic) (minor in gemstone).

Circles are divided in 5 bigs STEPs

A: lvl 1 to 5
B: lvl 1 to 10
C: lvl 6 to 10
D: lvl 11 to 20
E: 25, 30, 50

You learn spells by a chunk of them. So If I can learn B, D, E, every time I learn a step, I'll get 10 spells from this list, then 10 others (11-20), then the 25,30,50).

PURE can also select 4 circles from RESTRICTED and OPEN and put them in their OWN spell circles.

Pure can learn up to level 50 spells from their OWN (B, D, E). They can learn until level 20 RESTRICTED and OPEN (B, D each).
So they can learn E from restricted and open from 4 other lists.

HYBRIDE can learn up to level 50 spells from their OWN (B, D, E). They can learn up to level 10 RESTRICTED (B) and 20 in OPEN (B, D)

SEMI can learn up to level 50 spells from their OWN (B, D, E). They can learn up to level 10 in OPEN (A, C).

ARMS can learn up to level 5 in open (A).

OVERTRAIN: You Can learn also OVERTRAIN to get more letters when you hit the limitation. More to come below.




Let's continue with a third iteration about getting ranks in Role Master


ARMS can have many selections in manoeuvers, secondary skills and weapons cause it's cost so few.

PURE can have MANY spell circles but can't defend use weapons much to protect themselves. They got bad armor.

HYBRID and SEMI must choose with MANY possibilites. But you can't have em all even if you have the possibilities. So they'll always be weaker than PURE or ARMS even if they focuse 100% like them.

(i.e. in ROLEMASTER, WEAPONS: a warrior will pay 1 tp for every rank, and then 5 tp for the second rank. A bard will pay 3 and then 9. That's DOUBLE).

(i.e. in ROLEMASTER, SPELL CIRCLE: a PURE will pay 1 tp for every 5% to learn a magic. Same for HYBRID. A semi will pay FOUR (4). A square will pay up to 20).

(i.e. in ROLEMASTER, ARMOR: a SQUARE will pay 1 tp per rank to TRAIN armor for light, 2 tp per rank for heavy (same principle in RM than GS). A SEMI will pay DOUBLE and they are LIMITED with their magic domaine (a ranger can't cast in chain or plate).

(i.e. In ROLEMASTER, GENERAL (swim, climb, perception) and SPECIAL SKILLS (Ambush, UAC) are light TP for SQUARE (even more for rogues), medium for SEMI and heavy for PURE)

(i.e. In ROLEMASTER, MAGICAL SKILLS (reading runes, mana transfer, spell aim) are very light for PURE (none DEVINE) and HYBRIDE, heavy for ARMS and SEMI.

Overtrain: If you wanna take more spells, you need to pay the BIG bucks in TPS. A mage will only pay double, a hybrid triple, a semi QUADRUPLE.
And that's just to get the next letter (for a bard that want more spells from OPEN, since they're (A, C), you'll get D. Then need to pay again to reach E).

Outcome:

Again, we see that the profession imposed in RM has an impact. You have MORE possibilities with 2 domaines but everything cost more.

Pures and squares got their advantages since they can focuse in their particular domaine.

HYBRIDE and SEMI must take decisions in focuses or be a jack-of-all-trades.

Another iteration, the fourth about Rolemaster's bonuses which will bring us closer to the core problem.

The 10 first ranks in rolemaster gives + 5.
Then, from 11 to 20 ranks, you get +2.
Then, from 21 to 30 ranks, you get +1
Then, +.5 for every extra.

Per level bonus for combat:

WARRIOR get + 3 AS per level until max +60.
ROGUE and Warrior-monk ( Square specialized in unarmed) get +2 AS per level until max +40
Bard, ranger and monk got a +1 AS per level unil max +20.

So, even if a BARD decide to double rank each level in a weapon style (ohe for example) that cost DOUBLE, a WARRIOR will dig up a gap cause of his inherent bonus.

The fifth iteration, let's go gaining level in RM

The first 5 levels are 10k each
6 to 10 are 20k each
11 to 15 are 30k each
16 to 20 are 40k each
50k per level for life after.

Sixth iteration, SIMU'S attempt to equilibrate things with MANOEUVERS and a poke in the ribs with REDUX

MANOEUVERS

They could be treated as the same approach I gave about spell circles in RM. SIMU designed them the same way:

Every profession got access to that amount and each pay depending on their domaine
SQUARE pay less and got access to more
SEMI pay mid and got access to less
PURE/HYBRID pay high and got access to even less.

REDUX

It's the best secondary skill according to khaladon and I still believe it'S true. It makes a SQUARE even more sturdier against direct damage
SEMI can have access to some but at a cost of lesser spells.

Conclusion, let's focuse on each iteration's point.

Iteration 1 was about learning some key concepts with RM. GS4 has the same domaines (arms, psychic, divine, essence).
Iteration 2 was about spell circles (own, restricted, open) are the same logic than GS4. RM gives limitation to spells you can get. Hybrid got some. Semis got a lot. Squares are almost spell-less.
Iteration 3 was about getting ranks in RM in term of TPs. I see the same approach again in GS4.
Iteration 4 was about the bonus of the ranks. The more you grow, the less you gain like GS. BUT, after ranks 30, it's a low +.5 per. Combat inherent bonuses are helping keeping warring profession at the top.
Iteration 5 was about exp to gain levels. Again, similar approach in gemstone 4.
Iteration 6 was about simu's attempt to create a "spell" circle with reversed weight from the regular spell path (biais for warrior, few cost with the most CMAN, then heavier for semi with less CMAN, then even more heavy for pures with even less CMAN).

[Murrandii]

Ok, now let's narrow down all this with comparaisons.

Comparaison 1, spells.

Comparaison with Gemstone 4 about spells:

PURES got EVEN more spells in RM since there is more spell per circles and can MASTER 4 more domaine circles. But in gemstone, we got the same approach (base, major, minor) without the mastering which isn't in its core anyway.

Outcome: Advantage to RM here purely cause RM got more spell circles (i.e. pure got like 6 OWN spell circles, up to 15 RESTRICTED and 20 OPEN).

HYBRID in RM are limited in 2/3 of their circles but they can cast in RESTRICTED.

Outcome: In gemstone, they can't get access to MAJOR but aren't limited in minors. Major is stronger in gemstone, even low levels ( 503, 507, 508, 509, 203). Kinda ok-ok trade of I guess… Not… 425, 430, 120, 130, 140 are better spells). Advantage: Gemstone.

SEMI in RM are ULTRA limited in open so it's require them to be ultra selective in their profession.

Outcome: In gemstone, having no restriction in open lets SEMI having access to ULTRA strong spells (425-430, 120, 130, 140). Gemstone is REALLY advantaged here.

ARMS in rolemaster can only cast up to level 5 spells in OPEN. In gemstone, they aren't limited. HUGE advantage to gemstone.

Overtrain

In RM, you could overtrain to get the next letter of your path. That costs a LOT of TPS (double for pure, triple for hybrid, quadruple for semi). It'S a choice.
In GS4, you can basically get all spells that you're allowed to.

TYPE of spells:
(I'll bring up the same profession as in gemstone, otherwise it'd be too massive).

IN RM, OWN spell circle are mostly about your core profession "cliche".

A mage will have elemental own circles and they're about bolting and some utilites. NO BUFFS
A sorcerer is mostly about destruction or DOT. NO BUFFS.
A cleric repulsing undead, calling forces, buffs and raise dead. DEFENSIVE BUFF ONLY
A ranger, traveling, detection, buffs with nature aspects, survival. DEFENSIVE BUFF ONLY.
A bard, knowledge, silence, songs that debuff critters. NO BUFF.
A monk, pure buffs (haste, strength, DS), healing. OFFENSIVE, DEFENSIVE, HEALING BUFFS.
Empath: healing healing healing. NO BUFF

Here, we clearly see in RM, you get specialized spell that are UNIQUE to the profession.
They tend to focuse your character toward a mission.
But in GS, you get buffs per base circle....

RESERVED (major)
Essence: FAmiliar, invisibility, stocking spells, haste, altering self, teleportation, defensive buff, dispell, charm/sleep, enhancement of spells
Divine: healing, food/water creation, detection, localisation, symbols ( sacred symbols), calm
Psychic: Defensive buff, teleporation, flight, haste, alteration of matters, morphing

Remember that those are restricted in RM, only pure can get every of em, hybrid can learn up to level 10, semis can't.
In RM, Semis lose a LOT of useful spells. Hybride can get some nice one but are limited in efficiency.
Sorcerer have access to both essence and divine, they get a lot of spells but, again, are limited in efficiency.
NO AS BUFFS. Divine CANNOT DEFENSIVE BUFF.

GS: I see some spells being used in base circles here. They clearly buffed semis/hybrides by taking spells from those lists.

OPEN (minor)
Essence: defensive buffs, telekinesie, open locked, anti-nature buffs, enhance senses, minor illusion, physique enhancement (no Strength bonus), knowledge, runes ( traps), detection
Divine: walls, undisease/unpoison, lights, knowledge, detection, defensive buffs, sound, light healing, walking on difficult terrains
Psychic: research, light, detection, light healing, resistance, anticipations, illusion, resistance, camouflage, defensive buff

RM: Those are more accessible but semis still can't get high level spells. Hybrid have a nice selections of spells but are again limited
Pure can choose to get nice buffs if needed or utilities. NO AS BUFFS.
The defensive buff in OPEN Circles are also weaker in RM, so SEMIS can buffed themselves but are limited in levels (up to 10) and those buffs are weaker.

GSIV: again, I see some spells taken from those lists and placed in base profession. Also, minor spells CLEARLY buff more in gemstone. (AS for 400 too!)


Conclusion in comparaison's about spells.

RM limits people the further you want to spread out yourself. HYBRID and SEMIS will have to specialize to keep the pace with PURE and SQUARE. Otherwise, they'll lag.
Hybrid CAN choose to get limited (up to level 10) in RESTRICTED buffs or less limited (up to level 20) in open.

GSIV having no limits in spell circles is compensated with TPs issues. They just push the "problem" further on with levels.
I also see a REALLY breaking point with buffs in gemstone but let's continue with another issue.

Comparaison 2: Bonuses and ranks with gear and skills

In RM, we saw that you gain a +.5 per rank after a while.
WAR: So it means if we put that into a graphic, SQUARES will be on top of the chart for warring affaires, followed by rogues and so on
Why? remember:
WARRIOR get + 3 AS per level until max +60.
ROGUE and Warrior-monk ( Square specialized in unarmed) get +2 AS per level until max +40
Bard, ranger and monk got a +1 AS per level unil max +20.

SINCE there's no AS buffs, you must rely on your weapon's bonuses (same approach as gemstone for enchant). By assuming a warrior will specialize his development with his weaponry and armor, he'll get further AS gap with others
(A bard will want to increase his stuff, spreading his money on other bonuses, not just his weapon or armor).
Remember monks are the only profession that get AS buffs with their spells, so they'll be MACHINES too.

In Gemstone:
They gave some buffs to square with CMAN lists. Ok. Only available to them. Ok
But by giving buffs to everyone on their core spell lists, they pushed down the logic of RM we saw earlier

Comparaison 3: limits

RM forces something.
PURE and SQUARE are LESS forced to specialized.
A PURE can focuse on MANY spell circles (synergy).
A Warrior can focuse on MANY weapons style and armor and still get better skills here and there. Since he get inherent bonus to combat,
he'll grow stronger.

HYBRID MUST decide a path
If they TRY to focuse (getting synergized spell circles) like a pure, they'll be restricted in RESTRICT spells or OPEN still.
If they try to get more spell circles to be generalist, they'll have LESSER spell levels.

SEMIS are ALL OVER THE PLACE!
They can't get anything even if they can double ranks per level. Their spells are LIMITED besides their OWN spell circles.
IF they want to fight, they need to sacrifice spells! They can't get good armor!

Gemstone:

They force a path. You can mutant still. But you can get BUFFED about almost anyone or anything in your own spell circles!
You are limited per your level but there's a BIG difference here.

Conclusion about limits

RM got tight limits.
Gemstone too, but buffs are everywhere in spell circles, you don't feel them.

Problem identification:

Gemstone is following RM closely but got differences. The main one is buff as discussed. Everyone got buffs from any circle
But that could be counter-argumented by saying: they raised difficulties with monsters too, only pushing the problem later.
Ok.
A warrior or rogue still got no differences per se as a bard, paladin or ranger that 2X weapons, CM.
Oh, they gave a CMAN list to enhance a few... ok. BUT NO INHERENT BONUS as in RM. BAD!

But the core problem is not buffs per se, it's CHOICES.
In RM, you need to decide if you go HYBRID or SEMI and you will STILL be restricted. You decide WAY less if you're PURE or SQUARE since you pay so few TPs.
AND SEMIS don't GET a lot of spells still, they are have so few spells!

In GS, it's COMPLETELY the contrary. You don't feel the restriction much cause there's BUFFS everywhere in your spell circles.

And by setting a cap, SIMU is just ENHANCING the problem. The few restriction you push as a SEMI are compensated since they'll catch up their few restrictions.
You don't feel the weight of your choice at all.

We could say: You are not forced to cap. That's true. But as a game, you have a design, you have rules.
Therefore, Gemstone4 took a decision with rheir cap: they want us to continue playing, perfectly fine but they created gaps
among professions that are completely out of proportion.

[Murrandii]

Solution:

Change the cap (you are still limited to level 100)

1) Change the cap to SKILLS and lower the ranks bonus you get after 200 (+.5) and after 300 (+.25) and after 400 (+.1)
1.5) To put some weights in this uncapping approach: LIMIT the amount of ranks. (Like: Warrior: 500 in weapons. Rogue: 400 Semis: 250, pure: 200. PL/DT: Rogue: 500 and so on).
Of course, you would TRIPLE (triple TPS), then QUADRUPLE ( quadruple TPS) and so on.

outcome:
Those 2 points would allow SQUARES to push farther in their domaine: ARMS. (and they'll be better with EBP) at a cost!
Semis will be limited but they compensate with their spells...

2) Bring restrictions to spells.
A pure can 3x in spells.
A hybrid can only 2X in spells.
A semi or square can only 1X in spells.

That will put MORE weight in restrictions.

Give a change to cap like point 1 with the same approach. (pure can get up to 500 ranks in spells, hybrid 400, semis: 300, square: 200)

Pure will be on top for spells.
Hybride will be close if they focuse on their own spell circle (700) or they'll be a bit weaker BUT enjoy more the buffs from 100/400
Semis will have to take a decision like hybride and there will be impacts for them.

AND THOSE CHANGES WILL GIVE REASON FOR POST CAP GOAL instead of getting more useless skills.
If you run the numbers, mastering skills would take forever. This is good for SIMU (more playing) and us (reasons to play).

3) Monks need their OWN spell circle with the RM approach: SELF-CAST BUFFS

[Stumplicker]

Hang on. I'm sure whatever nonsense you're about to edit in is going to go over great.

http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/media/tFK8urY6XHj2w/giphy.gif

Okay you're good. Go.

[AnOrdim]

pee pee poo poo

[Taernath]

Protip: write your post before reserving space for it

[Murrandii]

Ouf, this text took me like 2 weeks to write up between meetings and stuff!

[Ardwen]

why are all these people declining things any way?

[Gizmo]

Tl;dr

[gilchristr]

"this text took me like 2 weeks to write up between meetings and stuff"

Try writing during meetings, you will get it done much faster than 2weeks.

[Gelston]

Ouf, this text took me like 2 weeks to write up between meetings and stuff!

Wow, you wasted 2 weeks on bullshit no one will ever read.

[Murrandii]

Wow, you wasted 2 weeks on bullshit no one will ever read.

LOL

[BriarFox]

I’m baffled as to the point or function of this information.

[Realk]

Wow, you wasted 2 weeks on bullshit no one will ever read.

I wish i was that bored/boring.

[gilchristr]

You spent two weeks writing shit no one will read during your free time, and you paid attention in meetings for no reason, this is your life Murrandi!

[Murrandii]

LOL, I get your point, I should had done it WHILE attending meetings:P

[Murrandii]

I’m baffled as to the point or function of this information.

It's 3 fold

First: getting the RM's point of view.

Second: Compare RM and GS to narrow down GS's problematic (with RM's biais).

Third: Recommandations

[Fortybox]

Hang on. I'm sure whatever nonsense you're about to edit in is going to go over great.

http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/media/tFK8urY6XHj2w/giphy.gif

Okay you're good. Go.

It's more coherent than anything you wrote...Wonkus.

[BriarFox]

What the heck is RM and why should we care?

[Murrandii]

What the heck is RM and why should we care?

RM= rolemaster. (kinda like DnD but very complicated)

Cause Gemstone is completely 100% BASED on RM?

To understand the problems, you need to go to the core, to the root of the design bro and elicit until you see the "breaking" points.

[Taernath]

https://i.imgur.com/UaLpJOK.png

[Parkbandit]

Sweet Jesus Fucking Christ...

I hope this thread delivers.

[Astray]

God, you are a fucking moron.

[Merzbow]

https://media.giphy.com/media/2d98nRiVVB6HS/giphy.gif

[Methais]

Someone TLDR this shit I’m not reading all that nonsense.

[Leafiara]

I'm not sure what I just skimmed over, probably because trying to explain RM in three posts to people (like me) who haven't played it is like trying to explain GS in three posts to people who haven't played it.


I think what I got out of it is you think that semis in GS are the best because they can 2x spells, CM, and weapons, so nerf them and buff squares?

[Tgo01]

I think what I got out of it is you think that semis in GS are the best because they can 2x spells, CM, and weapons, so nerf them and buff squares?

Three long posts that could be summarized in one sentence? Dude, Murrandii, it might be time to rethink your life choices.

[Murrandii]

Am I asked to summarize the first three posts? I'm reading some insults or stuff but not a direct ask?

Still,

In summary:

I did an analysis of gemstone with a 3 steps approach:

First: getting the RM's point of view about the core game. Why is it important? Cause gemstone is 100% based on it. Even if they deICEd, we're playing 100% of the core design of RM but with some many tweaks, it's kinda corrupted.

Second: Compare RM and GS to narrow down GS's problematic (with RM's biais). Why? To find out WHERE Simu went too much left or right and lost the main idea of RM. Again, that helps framing the problems better and not just putting band aids like they do.

Third: MY recommandations. Why ? Cause anyone can gives them.

Saying: Gemstone is crap, there's stuff that need to be done is the easy and completely out of context. Giving solutions without understanding the real problems is just repeating mistakes again and again.

Saying: SEMIS are too strong! Why are they too strong? Where SIMU losts it with their design? What makes them too strong in comparaison to the RM's point of view.

Saying: like Whirlin did a couple of years ago: Wizards are weaker cause reasons (mainly cause they can only 2X in spell aim). WHY is it a problem? Where SIMU losts it with their design? Again, you need the big picture!

Saying: SQUARE sux is too easy. Why they sux is not the right question. WHERE SIMU took this direction instead of that direction is the right question.

[Methais]

Am I asked to summarize the first three posts? I'm reading some insults or stuff but not a direct ask?

Still,

In summary:

I did an analysis of gemstone with a 3 steps approach:

First: getting the RM's point of view about the core game. Why is it important? Cause gemstone is 100% based on it. Even if they deICEd, we're playing 100% of the core design of RM but with some many tweaks, it's kinda corrupted.

Second: Compare RM and GS to narrow down GS's problematic (with RM's biais). Why? To find out WHERE Simu went too much left or right and lost the main idea of RM. Again, that helps framing the problems better and not just putting band aids like they do.

Third: MY recommandations. Why ? Cause anyone can gives them.

Saying: Gemstone is crap, there's stuff that need to be done is the easy and completely out of context. Giving solutions without understanding the real problems is just repeating mistakes again and again.

Saying: SEMIS are too strong! Why are they too strong? Where SIMU losts it with their design? What makes them too strong in comparaison to the RM's point of view.

Saying: like Whirlin did a couple of years ago: Wizards are weaker cause reasons (mainly cause they can only 2X in spell aim). WHY is it a problem? Where SIMU losts it with their design? Again, you need the big picture!

Saying: SQUARE sux is too easy. Why they sux is not the right question. WHERE SIMU took this direction instead of that direction is the right question.

You still wasted a fuckload of time that no one at Simu will ever read.

[Taernath]

Healer are your typical buffer that can HEAL or negative HEAL.

This is about as far in as I can make it since it blows my mind too hard

https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0xeJpnrWC4XWblEk/giphy.gif

[Murrandii]

You still wasted a fuckload of time that no one at Simu will ever read.

You're right.

But at this point, what you just said is another problem too: they don't take feedbacks or they simply don't care.

Each of us does something to try to improve this game. Dreaven writes 50 hours long dreavening script. Some people go to the official and writes TONS of suggestions that are biaised toward Simu's goal.

I did this as it's part of who I am (I must understand). On lnet, when there's debate about how crap Gemstone has become, why monks sux, why SEMIS are so OP, why squares are garbages, I often responded about RM and how wrong it went at this or that point without truly knowing.

I took the time to write this, now I know and understand.

When you understand, it's easier to stop caring bro. Some people don't need to understand to stop caring, fine for them. I ain't one of those.

My job is done at this point for caring, lol.

[Fortybox]

You're right.

But at this point, what you just said is another problem too: they don't take feedbacks or they simply don't care.

Each of us does something to try to improve this game. Dreaven writes 50 hours long dreavening script. Some people go to the official and writes TONS of suggestions that are biaised toward Simu's goal.

I did this as it's part of who I am (I must understand). On lnet, when there's debate about how crap Gemstone has become, why monks sux, why SEMIS are so OP, why squares are garbages, I often responded about RM and how wrong it went at this or that point without truly knowing.

I took the time to write this, now I know and understand.

When you understand, it's easier to stop caring bro. Some people don't need to understand to stop caring, fine for them. I ain't one of those.

My job is done at this point for caring, lol.

Simu controls the narrative for feedback. Wyrom has purposefully removed ways to complain about the game by restricting it on the official forums and controlling what people can say on Discord.

He also has individuals like Luxelle and Milax that help facilitate the propaganda for free. TownCrier and the Town Square podcasts could be places that give voice to the players but instead are just part of the controlled narrative that go out.

[Murrandii]

Simu controls the narrative for feedback. Wyrom has purposefully removed ways to complain about the game by restricting it on the official forums and controlling what people can say on Discord.

He also has individuals like Luxelle and Milax that help facilitate the propaganda for free. TownCrier and the Town Square podcasts could be places that give voice to the players but instead are just part of the controlled narrative that go out.

I'm 100% on you with the ambassadors like Luxelle and Milax that are just there to push SIMU's messages further. Not sure if Milax realize it, at this moment, though.

I quit a long time ago Luxelle's lnet channel for that reason, she was NOT helping the community but rather advertising SIMU'S p2w events and promote their products/services. She said stuff like: People wanna know. FALSE, you get a question here and there about the time, that's all. Players already know too much about p2w. She doesn't give people real tricks to enhance their gaming experience. She is just a tool for SIMU.

[Skeletor]

Simu controls the narrative for feedback. Wyrom has purposefully removed ways to complain about the game by restricting it on the official forums and controlling what people can say on Discord.

He also has individuals like Luxelle and Milax that help facilitate the propaganda for free. TownCrier and the Town Square podcasts could be places that give voice to the players but instead are just part of the controlled narrative that go out.

Since we’re speculating, my instincts say he also rigs the jackpots and maybe some raffles for the elite of the elite clientelle. Some of the “wins” by super spenders seem a bit too “fair tale ending” to be coincidence. I am certain though he has a list of high spenders, when they’re spending and on what just like any casino.

Didn’t he work at a casino as one of his prior jobs?

[Fortybox]

Since we’re speculating, my instincts say he also rigs the jackpots and maybe some raffles for the elite of the elite clientelle. Some of the “wins” by super spenders seem a bit too “fair tale ending” to be coincidence. I am certain though he has a list of high spenders, when they’re spending and on what just like any casino.ng money

Didn’t he work at a casino as one of his prior jobs?

I don't know if he rigs it for certain people but there is no doubt in my mind he changes the odds throughout the event. He changes drop rates on the fly. Simu doesn't publish winning odds at all and probably for good reason - the odds are constantly changing throughout the event.

[Whirlin]

I don't know if he rigs it for certain people but there is no doubt in my mind he changes the odds throughout the event. He changes drop rates on the fly. Simu doesn't publish winning odds at all and probably for good reason - the odds are constantly changing throughout the event.
I thought they didn't publish winnings because there were a set quantity of items being released that have typically vetted through QC/etc... Therefore is there are 40 potential drops... They can't control/provide oversight into anticipated rolls/attempts at those rewards, so they can't produce a consistent odds.



Saying: like Whirlin did a couple of years ago: Wizards are weaker cause reasons (mainly cause they can only 2X in spell aim). WHY is it a problem? Where SIMU losts it with their design? Again, you need the big picture!

Please do not compare any assertions I have made about game mechanics to posts like this. If I provide single line commentary, there is backup available, however I curb posts with folks who have deep knowledge of game mechanics, as the explicit justifications are unnecessary.

Here are some tips for doing any post of this nature... Consider this a free Whirlin Review/Guide.

You do not declare your scope of your comparison, nor do you scope the problem that you are wishing to tackle based on your analysis. If you're going to compare something like Pathfinder and 4th edition, you need to curb your scope to identify a problem that you observe, and determine how the two systems tackle that problem.
You introduce terms and acronyms without explicit definition (if nothing else... this should ALWAYS be a go-to for any professional writing). you swap between usage of RoleMaster and RM, and then swap back, without reason/justification/emphasis.
Proofread and spell check... MANOEUVERS

Your initial points are not as engaging as you perceive them to be, and detract from the overall intent. If I do not agree that there are three major archetypes behind classes in an RPG: Warrior/Mage/Healer, I am less inclined to read further. I should not be waiting until post 3 to understand that you're arguing for changes to the skill cap structure.
Your arguments/facts/opinions do not consistent narrate towards the conclusion. I'm not challenging accuracy, because it doesn't matter, however, there's no building argument crafted. They're extraneous, adding complexity, and do not supporting or building the narrative.

For example, why is the archetype assertion relevant to the skill caps conclusion? Because they handle squares/pures/semis differently? Why not just state that?
Why do I need to know the specific breakdown of exactly how many spells are granted each circle step? Why is that necessary to know that there's a mechanic in place that lets folks pick and choose their spells between core and secondary circles dynamically based on whatever? What conclusion was even brought based on the spells commentary? I only see stuff about skills after that. Why did I need to know how spells work?


You can't circle back to summarize points in your 'itterations' without having clear sections defined that draw a reader's attention into the intent of a section and a take away.


You also haven't addressed the elephant in the room when discussing RoleMaster. Gemstone no longer leverages RoleMaster after the separation in the purchasing of IP during the ICE days, broke away in a legal separation, and subsequently was required to make steps to delineate themselves in the marketplace. I don't believe there is much appetite in leveraging elements of RoleMaster in an unlicensed state, and I'd argue it's probably legally tumultuous. If we look your posts with this in mind, there is little value in the history between RoleMaster and Gemstone. They may share many of the same roots, but they are different now, by design and intent. We may (and should) as a community be looking towards all MMOs, Tabletop RPGs/etc for inspiration. The fact that it's RoleMaster and it shares some fundamentals with Gemstone doesn't entitle it to special treatment, if anything it only increases the scrutiny.

Lastly, the conclusions/etc are incomplete without examples of what that could/would look like to the average player, and how their experiences would be altered, and the necessary changes required to hunting grounds/events/whatnot as a result, and whether or not those changes would be worth the investment.


tl;dr:
Keep reviewing, keep comparing, keep bringing up ideas, but spend a more time building arguments. Review your posts forward and backwards to ensure all points are relevant, especially if spanning multiple posts. When in doubt, follow the general outline of:
Identification of a problem, how Gemstone handles it, how other game/engine handle it, the strengths/weaknesses of each approach, recommendations, strengths/weakness of recommendations, and what the recommendation means to players, the game, the gamemasters, and why it should be prioritized over other projects.


I am not, nor do I want to dissuade ideas from being proposed, I want to ensure ideas have been properly analyzed and well thought out proposal. The more shitty ideas get proposed, the less likely any ideas are to be considered.

[Tisket]

The OP needs a new hobby.

Also, spelling and grammar checks.

[Methais]

Simu controls the narrative for feedback. Wyrom has purposefully removed ways to complain about the game by restricting it on the official forums and controlling what people can say on Discord.

He also has individuals like Luxelle and Milax that help facilitate the propaganda for free. TownCrier and the Town Square podcasts could be places that give voice to the players but instead are just part of the controlled narrative that go out.

I never got around to listening to the other podcasts but I don’t recall any of that happening in the podcast I was on.

[Leafiara]

Giving solutions without understanding the real problems is just repeating mistakes again and again.Okay, but when your solution is changing the way skill bonuses and skill caps work and inventing a new spell circle for monks, you're basically asking for GS5. They'd have to redo every creature, spells, the SMR system, combat maneuvers... pretty much everything.

It's like being one of the many people (me included) who say Simu needs to put some of the money they make from pay events into hiring full-time programmers. Sure, it would fix things, but it's also not going to happen.

I couldn't figure out if you think the problems are from 0-100 or only at post-cap. But if it's just post-cap, focus on that in your suggestions so they'd only need to change a few hunting grounds instead of the entire game.

[Murrandii]

I thought they didn't publish winnings because there were a set quantity of items being released that have typically vetted through QC/etc... Therefore is there are 40 potential drops... They can't control/provide oversight into anticipated rolls/attempts at those rewards, so they can't produce a consistent odds.


Please do not compare any assertions I have made about game mechanics to posts like this. If I provide single line commentary, there is backup available, however I curb posts with folks who have deep knowledge of game mechanics, as the explicit justifications are unnecessary.

Here are some tips for doing any post of this nature... Consider this a free Whirlin Review/Guide.

You do not declare your scope of your comparison, nor do you scope the problem that you are wishing to tackle based on your analysis. If you're going to compare something like Pathfinder and 4th edition, you need to curb your scope to identify a problem that you observe, and determine how the two systems tackle that problem.
You introduce terms and acronyms without explicit definition (if nothing else... this should ALWAYS be a go-to for any professional writing). you swap between usage of RoleMaster and RM, and then swap back, without reason/justification/emphasis.
Proofread and spell check... MANOEUVERS

Your initial points are not as engaging as you perceive them to be, and detract from the overall intent. If I do not agree that there are three major archetypes behind classes in an RPG: Warrior/Mage/Healer, I am less inclined to read further. I should not be waiting until post 3 to understand that you're arguing for changes to the skill cap structure.
Your arguments/facts/opinions do not consistent narrate towards the conclusion. I'm not challenging accuracy, because it doesn't matter, however, there's no building argument crafted. They're extraneous, adding complexity, and do not supporting or building the narrative.

For example, why is the archetype assertion relevant to the skill caps conclusion? Because they handle squares/pures/semis differently? Why not just state that?
Why do I need to know the specific breakdown of exactly how many spells are granted each circle step? Why is that necessary to know that there's a mechanic in place that lets folks pick and choose their spells between core and secondary circles dynamically based on whatever? What conclusion was even brought based on the spells commentary? I only see stuff about skills after that. Why did I need to know how spells work?


You can't circle back to summarize points in your 'itterations' without having clear sections defined that draw a reader's attention into the intent of a section and a take away.


You also haven't addressed the elephant in the room when discussing RoleMaster. Gemstone no longer leverages RoleMaster after the separation in the purchasing of IP during the ICE days, broke away in a legal separation, and subsequently was required to make steps to delineate themselves in the marketplace. I don't believe there is much appetite in leveraging elements of RoleMaster in an unlicensed state, and I'd argue it's probably legally tumultuous. If we look your posts with this in mind, there is little value in the history between RoleMaster and Gemstone. They may share many of the same roots, but they are different now, by design and intent. We may (and should) as a community be looking towards all MMOs, Tabletop RPGs/etc for inspiration. The fact that it's RoleMaster and it shares some fundamentals with Gemstone doesn't entitle it to special treatment, if anything it only increases the scrutiny.

Lastly, the conclusions/etc are incomplete without examples of what that could/would look like to the average player, and how their experiences would be altered, and the necessary changes required to hunting grounds/events/whatnot as a result, and whether or not those changes would be worth the investment.


tl;dr:
Keep reviewing, keep comparing, keep bringing up ideas, but spend a more time building arguments. Review your posts forward and backwards to ensure all points are relevant, especially if spanning multiple posts. When in doubt, follow the general outline of:
Identification of a problem, how Gemstone handles it, how other game/engine handle it, the strengths/weaknesses of each approach, recommendations, strengths/weakness of recommendations, and what the recommendation means to players, the game, the gamemasters, and why it should be prioritized over other projects.


I am not, nor do I want to dissuade ideas from being proposed, I want to ensure ideas have been properly analyzed and well thought out proposal. The more shitty ideas get proposed, the less likely any ideas are to be considered.

LOL

From 99% of reactions: people says you spent too much time writing up this (I repeat, it was between meetings and such). They are obviously not initiated to analysis.

From the 1% of reactions (you): spend more time building it. You are obviously knowing about analysis.

Catch 22 still.

But you are still right, it's incomplet and needed more structure and I plaid guilty. This kind of work takes weeks to do with the proper documentations to support each point and is normally done in teams. Again, catch 22 brother.

I am completely open to start the project again. We could define the scope as I did: What's the core problem? then work slowly to the proper recommandation to make this game what it should be ALONG its duo business models

1) subscription
2) paid events

[Realk]

I never got around to listening to the other podcasts but I don’t recall any of that happening in the podcast I was on.


nah, that one was pretty chill.. but you gotta know that Milax is never going to ask any hard questions to anyone.. and you saying we get nerfed a lot, and all making fun of spaghetti coding together... It's a topic that nobody will breach.

[Fortybox]

I never got around to listening to the other podcasts but I don’t recall any of that happening in the podcast I was on.

Per Milax on LNET:

[LNet]-GSIV:Milax: "I'm game-positive, as opposed to game-negative. Which is to say that I try to approach my work with the podcast from an optimistic lens, as in, "I enjoy playing this game.""

That's fine. I think my critique still stands and is reinforced by what he is saying though. Nobody is really asking Wyrom or Simu the hard questions. If it's approached from a positive viewpoint, then it leaves no room for the questions that several players are asking and are upset about. Again, his podcast...but that's my critique and reason why I won't listen to it.

Wyrom could take a dump, wrap it in tin foil and Luxelle will blast it on TownCrier as the best new item to come out. We'll then have a new podcast about it as well.

[Fortybox]

nah, that one was pretty chill.. but you gotta know that Milax is never going to ask any hard questions to anyone.. and you saying we get nerfed a lot, and all making fun of spaghetti coding together... It's a topic that nobody will breach.

This is correct.

[Taernath]

Nobody is really asking Wyrom or Simu the hard questions.

Does it really matter, though? What do you think would happen if someone finally corners Wyrom and drags an answer out of him? Things will stop or change? Nah. Simu (apparently) loves him. The whales love him. It would be business as usual.

[Methais]

Per Milax on LNET:

[LNet]-GSIV:Milax: "I'm game-positive, as opposed to game-negative. Which is to say that I try to approach my work with the podcast from an optimistic lens, as in, "I enjoy playing this game.""

That's fine. I think my critique still stands and is reinforced by what he is saying though. Nobody is really asking Wyrom or Simu the hard questions. If it's approached from a positive viewpoint, then it leaves no room for the questions that several players are asking and are upset about. Again, his podcast...but that's my critique and reason why I won't listen to it.

Wyrom could take a dump, wrap it in tin foil and Luxelle will blast it on TownCrier as the best new item to come out. We'll then have a new podcast about it as well.

What would you consider hard questions though? Or at least hard questions that he could reasonably expect an actual direct answer on?

“So Wyrom/Estild/whoever...why did you guys adopt a model that exploits mental illness and despite bragging about how every event was such a raging success, Simu still refuses to invest a dime of that back into Gemstone when you could easily hire at least one full time dev and still have a mountain of cash leftover, as well as the fact that the game’s dev is very obviously prioritizing P2W events over everything else? Giving P2W GMs a cut of the P2W stuff they worked on doesn’t count as investing back into GS btw.”

That’s the kind of stuff everyone wants Simu to answer, but we already know they’ll never provide an answer. Being asked that on a podcast wouldn’t change that. They’d probably just be like “I’m not answering that, please edit this out or I won’t allow any GMs to be guests on here in the future.

From what I gathered, Milax hasn’t been in GS for all that long, at least compared to most of us who have been around forever and witnessed decades of Simu being Simu.

Sounds to me like he’s just trying to keep an overall positive tone. Otherwise I would think that every podcast would just be people yelling I HOPE ALL OF UR BALLS DIE!!!!!!! at Simu. Which in most cases would be justified, but that’s beside the point.

Asking “hard” questions would also probably just result in staff members no longer being allowed on the podcast.

All I know for sure is that the podcast I was on was by far the best podcast in the history of the universe.

[Fortybox]

What would you consider hard questions though? Or at least hard questions that he could reasonably expect an actual direct answer on?

“So Wyrom/Estild/whoever...why did you guys adopt a model that exploits mental illness and despite bragging about how every event was such a raging success, Simu still refuses to invest a dime of that back into Gemstone when you could easily hire at least one full time dev and still have a mountain of cash leftover, as well as the fact that the game’s dev is very obviously prioritizing P2W events over everything else? Giving P2W GMs a cut of the P2W stuff they worked on doesn’t count as investing back into GS btw.”

That’s the kind of stuff everyone wants Simu to answer, but we already know they’ll never provide an answer. Being asked that on a podcast wouldn’t change that. They’d probably just be like “I’m not answering that, please edit this out or I won’t allow any GMs to be guests on here in the future.

From what I gathered, Milax hasn’t been in GS for all that long, at least compared to most of us who have been around forever and witnessed decades of Simu being Simu.

Sounds to me like he’s just trying to keep an overall positive tone. Otherwise I would think that every podcast would just be people yelling I HOPE ALL OF UR BALLS DIE!!!!!!! at Simu. Which in most cases would be justified, but that’s beside the point.

Asking “hard” questions would also probably just result in staff members no longer being allowed on the podcast.

All I know for sure is that the podcast I was on was by far the best podcast in the history of the universe.

I think it would change if enough pressure was put on them. Saying it won't change ensures Simu will do what Simu does until they go out of business.

[GSIV Rogue]

Okay, but when your solution is changing the way skill bonuses and skill caps work and inventing a new spell circle for monks, you're basically asking for GS5. They'd have to redo every creature, spells, the SMR system, combat maneuvers... pretty much everything.

It's like being one of the many people (me included) who say Simu needs to put some of the money they make from pay events into hiring full-time programmers. Sure, it would fix things, but it's also not going to happen.

Exactly correct. Also, most publicly traded corporations (Stillfront Group who owns majority share of Simutronics) - regardless of industry - don't tend to look long term or try to "fix" things - even if doing so may create a longer term revenue stream / higher quality product / more satisfied customer base/ expanded customer base, etc. Instead, they pick the lowest hanging fruit, cut as many corners as possible on labor, give lip service, try to sell stock, and ultimately squeeze every penny out of their current product until it fails.

There are exceptions to this, but this is generally how capitalism works.

:lol: at the idea that any profit from Gemstone is going to be reinvested into the game. Profit from Gemstone may or may not be reinvested into Simutronics at all. It's very likely that they spend just enough to keep it running and use the leftover to develop other games.



I couldn't figure out if you think the problems are from 0-100 or only at post-cap. But if it's just post-cap, focus on that in your suggestions so they'd only need to change a few hunting grounds instead of the entire game.

TL;DR but see above. Best to just get the most you can out of the current game, enjoy it while it lasts, and invest as little as necessary ($$) into it to do so.

[Fierna]

The only way they’ll change is if everyone or at least 80% of people stop attending Dusk and Ebon. But this will never happen as they’ve got both mental illness and peer pressure on their side.

There’s a very disturbing connection between character improvement in the form of item acquistion and the player’s self worth in RL. I wish I never discovered it but now that it’s become more front and center with the past couple of events it’s chilling to say the least.

[Murrandii]

...

[Ardwen]

One minor comment, Stillfront is not a publicly traded American company in any way. They are based in Sweden and trade there. No idea how that effects policies though.

[Murrandii]

One minor comment, Stillfront is not a publicly traded American company in any way. They are based in Sweden and trade there. No idea how that effects policies though.

We can only presume they… care even less.

One "proof" we could provide is: Even after buying simu, they didn't hired professionals, they didn't try to change anything. They kept the volonteers "coders" approach and let it runned like it was as long as this amount of projected cash Wyrom/Mario flashes to them every start of years with his power point graphics.

That's completely crazy when you think of it.

[GSIV Rogue]

One minor comment, Stillfront is not a publicly traded American company in any way. They are based in Sweden and trade there.

Thank you for the clarification and you are correct. They are a publicly traded company www.nasdaqomxnordic.com/aktier/microsite?Instrument=SSE116312&name=Stillfront%20Group based in a capitalistic country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model and own assets in America.



No idea how that effects policies though.

Same difference.

[GSIV Rogue]

There’s a very disturbing connection between character improvement in the form of item acquistion and the player’s self worth in RL. I wish I never discovered it but now that it’s become more front and center with the past couple of events it’s chilling to say the least.

Yes. Has always been the case - but from some of what you described - it is far worse than I had previously imagined.

[GSIV Rogue]

We can only presume they… care even less.


Very likely.

[Xred]

I have a theory - I’ve seen the books of a lot of companies. I base my theory on passed experience and can easily be wrong.

My estimation is that 50% of revenues go to overhead and SGA and a quarter goes to the stillfront mothership. That leaves 25% for Wyrom and basic few dollars for the other GMs. If you read the filings of Stilfront they brag about how they purchase old IPs and milk the shit out of them. Where they are fucking up is not integrating HR and billing of all their properties which would lower costs. Stillfront should have one calling/billing center for all of its products. It’s kind of strange. But that may mean a large capital investment and risk. Which goes against their corporate strategy. Effectively their business model is buying an annuity. They represent to investors a steady state cash flow with low risk. Think of the commercials you see during the daytime for “cash up front now” for lotto and settlement winners.

Sadly, either: it’s a fact of the business that the return on investment isn't as good as other opportunities that Stilfront has, or Wyrom doesn’t know how to convince his supervisors to make the ROI case. This would explain why there is zero marketing expenditure. HQ sees a negative return on investment under the current status quo. My guess is that Stilfront looks at the TXT basted technology as a dead antiquated one and is out competed by graphical games. Where I would criticize their strategy, and this would be an interesting case, is their IP utilization. I’m shocked that they can’t get someone to license their proprietary content for something graphical, books etc. I think this part of their balance sheet maybe way undervalued. I think there is a larger niche market for gemstone as it is basically an interactive book with the ability to show self expression greater than any graphical game. But that would take capital and vision to execute and goes against the risk aversion strategy of HQ.

[Stanley Burrell]

Ohhoohhohooohohoohooo!

You're the greatest, X. Fuck them haters.

[GSIV Rogue]

If you read the filings of Stilfront they brag about how they purchase old IPs and milk the shit out of them. Effectively their business model is buying an annuity. They represent to investors a steady state cash flow with low risk.

Sadly, either: it’s a fact of the business that the return on investment isn't as good as other opportunities that Stilfront has, or Wyrom doesn’t know how to convince his supervisors to make the ROI case. This would explain why there is zero marketing expenditure. HQ sees a negative return on investment under the current status quo.


Yes. I would add - Wyrom probably has close to a 0% chance of convincing his superiors even if he were inclined to do so. Likely he is just collecting a check and going through the motions.



I think there is a larger niche market for gemstone as it is basically an interactive book with the ability to show self expression greater than any graphical game. But that would take capital and vision to execute and goes against the risk aversion strategy of HQ.

I agree with you 100% on both points.

Great post!

[Xred]

The more I think about it the more the investment case comes down to scaleability and social integration. What I mean is: how large can you build gemstone in terms of population? And at what cost can you integrate new players and weed out disruptions? These are important questions because the main differentiated value proposition of the game is community and a smaller extent personalization of items. The community, of course, sets the upper bound of revenues. While having a many benefits, like being sticky and difficult to for competitors to replicate, the downside of a community is that it is labor intensive and and expensive to maintain. Communities require a standard set of norms, behaviors, rituals and enforcement. In other words, players need to be educated and monitored and that is expensive and time consuming. This is why it takes so long for a newb to understand GS RP dynamics and why the game literally has “mentors”. How many other games have mentors?

The cost of social integration is placed on the players and GMs. For example if someone starts acting disruptive, the response is player negative player feedback to that person. It is later followed by GM intervention. Stillfront may believe that 2000 players -per AOL unlimited - was the upper limit where the tech or social cohesion breaks down which would also explain a lack of investment. Worse, gemstone is caught in a catch 22. The more history, the more development, the more complex and rich they make the game - the harder it is to integrate new players and casual players. The barrier to entry of Gemstone, I think, is the highest of any game I’ve played.

In my experience management like Stilfront doesn’t think in these kinds of strategic terms. What terms they do think is how much much money does it cost to acquire a new customer (Customer acquisition cost) and average lifetime customer spend. I think there is a big number on the average spend for legacy players, but when they look at the data of new players, gemstone isn’t retaining them. I’d be willing to bet less than 5% of customers are new customers from after the move to the web. Which would mean management doesn’t want to risk investing in a new player experience nor marketing because they don’t see a way to integrate new players into the community.

I think a lot of their problems of finding the niche customers will be mitigated if they moved to a platform like Steam or Facebook games. Simply put, they need to do a AOL type deal where they get inexpensive access to customers so they can focus on what the do best - community. Or at least function on mobile and get on the Apple store. Customers should be able to GS on IPad. This would lower entry barriers to finding new players and consuming GS content. Being on the Apple store or Steam would open up thousands of customers. However, again this involves taking risk and giving up a significant proportion of revenues to that platform.

If I was advising Wyrom, I would tell him Gemstone should be marketed and developed as a community of adventure, first and foremost. This is its advantage. There is no other game, that I know of that facilitates the kind of intimacy and meaningful social interaction of GS. GS not just living in an adventure novel, like Zork. It’s living an adventure with friends, 24/7. I hope that doing a deal, that would get fresh blood into the game so that management can focus on the community, not just pay events, would make a better experience for everyone.

[Fierna]

The more I think about it the more the investment case comes down to scaleability and social integration. What I mean is: how large can you build gemstone in terms of population? And at what cost can you integrate new players and weed out disruptions? These are important questions because the main differentiated value proposition of the game is community and a smaller extent personalization of items. The community, of course, sets the upper bound of revenues. While having a many benefits, like being sticky and difficult to for competitors to replicate, the downside of a community is that it is labor intensive and and expensive to maintain. Communities require a standard set of norms, behaviors, rituals and enforcement. In other words, players need to be educated and monitored and that is expensive and time consuming. This is why it takes so long for a newb to understand GS RP dynamics and why the game literally has “mentors”. How many other games have mentors?

The cost of social integration is placed on the players and GMs. For example if someone starts acting disruptive, the response is player negative player feedback to that person. It is later followed by GM intervention. Stillfront may believe that 2000 players -per AOL unlimited - was the upper limit where the tech or social cohesion breaks down which would also explain a lack of investment. Worse, gemstone is caught in a catch 22. The more history, the more development, the more complex and rich they make the game - the harder it is to integrate new players and casual players. The barrier to entry of Gemstone, I think, is the highest of any game I’ve played.

In my experience management like Stilfront doesn’t think in these kinds of strategic terms. What terms they do think is how much much money does it cost to acquire a new customer (Customer acquisition cost) and average lifetime customer spend. I think there is a big number on the average spend for legacy players, but when they look at the data of new players, gemstone isn’t retaining them. I’d be willing to bet less than 5% of customers are new customers from after the move to the web. Which would mean management doesn’t want to risk investing in a new player experience nor marketing because they don’t see a way to integrate new players into the community.

I think a lot of their problems of finding the niche customers will be mitigated if they moved to a platform like Steam or Facebook games. Simply put, they need to do a AOL type deal where they get inexpensive access to customers so they can focus on what the do best - community. Or at least function on mobile and get on the Apple store. Customers should be able to GS on IPad. This would lower entry barriers to finding new players and consuming GS content. Being on the Apple store or Steam would open up thousands of customers. However, again this involves taking risk and giving up a significant proportion of revenues to that platform.

If I was advising Wyrom, I would tell him Gemstone should be marketed and developed as a community of adventure, first and foremost. This is its advantage. There is no other game, that I know of that facilitates the kind of intimacy and meaningful social interaction of GS. GS not just living in an adventure novel, like Zork. It’s living an adventure with friends, 24/7. I hope that doing a deal, that would get fresh blood into the game so that management can focus on the community, not just pay events, would make a better experience for everyone.

Let’s not kid ourselves here, it would be much easier to milk the mentally unstable for their life savings when they’re so willing to give it up for lines of text.

So, a company can risk by advertising and hiring developers or it can just extract money by some volunteer writing “And the Werepuppy nibbles on your hair!” This isn’t multiple choice at that point.

The only possible scenario GS will change it’s ways is if people STOP goin to Dusk and Ebon, just drop them cold turkey. How am I so sure about this? Because DragonRealms. Go to the DragonRealms forum boards the biggest most active portions are not events (which are tiny) but Roleplaying, Storylines and offtopic/social.

[Xred]

Let’s not kid ourselves here, it would be much easier to milk the mentally unstable for their life savings when they’re so willing to give it up for lines of text.

So, a company can risk by advertising and hiring developers or it can just extract money by some volunteer writing “And the Werepuppy nibbles on your hair!” This isn’t multiple choice at that point.

The only possible scenario GS will change it’s ways is if people STOP goin to Dusk and Ebon, just drop them cold turkey. How am I so sure about this? Because DragonRealms. Go to the DragonRealms forum boards the biggest most active portions are not events (which are tiny) but Roleplaying, Storylines and offtopic/social.

I basically agree with you. If Stillfront takes no risk - Wyrom keeps cranking out puppies and mounts in limited supply- Stillfront makes its 20% return on capital invested. There is little incentive to change.

In a few months there will be more posts in the “paid events space” then all other areas on the officials combined. Someone I know is contemplating posting a screen capture of that on Reddit to shame management and show it as a signal of the business model moving away from community to inter-community competition. (Players spending money to socially complete for items and status)

But if we want change, and I think your example is correct, we need to better organize and coordinate to educate and enforce. We have to get the message across that as you are spending money on these events you are not supporting the community anymore. You are harming the community by directing GMs away from community building and world development. Stillfront will listen to a players union if we have the power to affect the bottom line. The good news is risk averse companies are very reactive when their projected cash flow streams are threatened.

[Murrandii]

No need to post a 3 pages long post about another frustration aspect of SIMU'S decision:

LICH

Even by separating GEMSTONE 4 in 2 separate models, subscription and pay-to-use-events, you end up hitting the same wall.

SIMU is NOT developing the game. If it wasn't from people like tillmen and others, the game would be DEAD (dead like dragon reamls).

The game entered the 21th centuries, in a way, because of the willpower of PLAYERS. Players enhance the experience for everyone. Like the APP store's motto: there's an app for that, lich is: there's a script for that.

What simu does? A BIG FINGER with events such as rachi and their horses. Anything a mount would do, LICH script like go2 does better.

WHY?

Cause SIMU is NOT developing the game besides some here and there project for reasons.

See the catch 22 here again? Players are developing the game further with scripts to make the game playable… simu isn't. SIMU is focusing on paid events that COMPETE in some way with the dev made by players!

IT'S A PURE NON SENSE! PLAYERS that are saving the game with LICH are… killing the game cause they do it instead of SIMU???!???

…

No it's not. The model is clear, we all know it: The game is presented / directed by Stillfront to one and only one purpose: cash milking.

When you acknowledge that, when you understand that, good luck going into phase 2: changes. You fight ambassadors like luxelle or Milax, you fight people like pathragers and his sbires, you fight indifference, you fight uncaring.

[Methais]

If it wasn't from people like tillmen and others, the game would be DEAD (dead like dragon reamls).

This brings up an interesting point.

Only Tillmen has the power to bring Simu to its knees. If Tillmen pulled the plug on Lich, there would be hardly anyone left playing to go to P2W events in the first place. And most of the ones that tried to stick around would realize how terrible this game is without Lich and then there'd be only Roblar left playing or something.

Simu should be sending him free coke and hookers every month, paying protection money, etc.

[Xred]

…

No it's not. The model is clear, we all know it: The game is presented / directed by Stillfront to one and only one purpose: cash milking.

When you acknowledge that, when you understand that, good luck going into phase 2: changes. You fight ambassadors like luxelle or Milax, you fight people like pathragers and his sbires, you fight indifference, you fight uncaring.

The goals of my posts have been to explain the business case of what is going on and propose constructive solutions. My opinion remains: we should continue to build more in LICH to circumvent simu. For example, the puppers script that came out months ago. Don’t most major games have modding communities now?

I think there is a host of fun areas and items we could start building in lich. I bet our programmers could develop new spells, new quests and new areas in a matter of weeks.

[Xred]

This brings up an interesting point.

Only Tillmen has the power to bring Simu to its knees. If Tillmen pulled the plug on Lich, there would be hardly anyone left playing to go to P2W events in the first place. And most of the ones that tried to stick around would realize how terrible this game is without Lich and then there'd be only Roblar left playing or something.

Simu should be sending him free coke and hookers every month, paying protection money, etc.


Agreed 100%.

My laptop is in the shop, I’m on my iPad this week. (and at home sick so this is why you are getting my posts) GS is unplayable without lich, and on mobile. I’m not 14. I’m not going to memorize where everything is. I’m not going to do alchemy by hand etc. Just running to and from otf without lich is ridiculous.

If simu had any brains, they would offer Tillman a buyout and maybe a gig. Maybe if Tillman blocked festival access with lich, we might have a shot.

The more I think about it the more I love the idea of Tilman blocking access. He could have a 5 min script timer, he could ransom duskruin scripts. There is no way you would see people doing 100s of runs without lich. Big shot would be impossible for non programmers. People would certainly see how unusable GS is without lich, and how little development GS makes from year to year with subscription money.

[Methais]

Agreed 100%.

My laptop is in the shop, I’m on my iPad this week. (and at home sick so this is why you are getting my posts) GS is unplayable without lich, and on mobile. I’m not 14. I’m not going to memorize where everything is. I’m not going to do alchemy by hand etc. Just running to and from otf without lich is ridiculous.

If simu had any brains, they would offer Tillman a buyout and maybe a gig. Maybe if Tillman blocked festival access with lich, we might have a shot.

The more I think about it the more I love the idea of Tilman blocking access. He could have a 5 min script timer, he could ransom duskruin scripts. There is no way you would see people doing 100s of runs without it. People would certainly see how unusable GS is without it and how little development GS makes from year to year with subscription money.

I wonder if Simu bothered to inform Stillfront that their game's survival is literally dependent on a third party addon before they closed that deal.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that they "forgot" to mention it.

[Xred]

I wonder if Simu bothered to inform Stillfront that their game's survival is literally dependent on a third party addon before they closed that deal.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that they "forgot" to mention it.

Lol, at best it might be a footnote. But I’d love to call their HQ to discuss this. I’m happy to hop on discord with Tillman and help him make a PowerPoint.... It would be a shame if my power went out during your big events, and you guys lost 30% of your revenue.

[Taernath]

I'm pretty sure I've seen lich described in one of SF's announcements as some kind of corporate euphemism, like 'utility enhancement developed by engaged players for the betterment of the game'.

[Astray]

I'm pretty sure I've seen lich described in one of SF's announcements as some kind of corporate euphemism, like 'utility enhancement developed by engaged players for the betterment of the game'.

That is a lot nicer than saying "The thing that keeps us afloat that we don't pay for".

[audioserf]

It is truly wild how quickly everyone would run for the exits if Lich ever vanished. Except for a few select luddites, the game is basically unplayable without it. Maybe unplayable is the wrong word since it's not literally true, but once you've had a taste of even go2, FAST TRAVEL from the My Little Pony event just won't quite scratch that itch, lol.

[Murrandii]

It is truly wild how quickly everyone would run for the exits if Lich ever vanished. Except for a few select luddites, the game is basically unplayable without it. Maybe unplayable is the wrong word since it's not literally true, but once you've had a taste of even go2, FAST TRAVEL from the My Little Pony event just won't quite scratch that itch, lol.

Price for go2 = 0
Impact: customer experience enhanced by being managed by the script.

Price for horse = 80$ +++
Impact: customer experience unchanged or even worsen cause you need to remember the direction to get to this or that place.

And SIMU got the NERVES to do those events. It's …. crazy

[audioserf]

customer experience unchanged in the bowl

[Methais]

It is truly wild how quickly everyone would run for the exits if Lich ever vanished. Except for a few select luddites, the game is basically unplayable without it. Maybe unplayable is the wrong word since it's not literally true, but once you've had a taste of even go2, FAST TRAVEL from the My Little Pony event just won't quite scratch that itch, lol.

YEAH BUT SIMU IMPLEMENTED SOME BULLSHIT WHERE YOU CAN SOMETIMES MOVE 2 ROOMS OVER INSTEAD OF 1 SO THAT'S PRETTY MUCH JUST AS GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

I wish Tillmen would pull the plug on Lich for like a week or a month just to see how Simu reacts and if they try to implement their own version of ;go2 or something. Which they should already be copying nearly everything Lich does, and making it part of the actual game. But that would require foresight and common sense, both of which Simu has always been lacking.

[Methais]

Price for go2 = 0
Impact: customer experience enhanced by being managed by the script.

Price for horse = 80$ +++
Impact: customer experience unchanged or even worsen cause you need to remember the direction to get to this or that place.

And SIMU got the NERVES to do those events. It's …. crazy

As far as horses go, I blame that one on mental illness.

[Fierna]

Price for go2 = 0
Impact: customer experience enhanced by being managed by the script.

Price for horse = 80$ +++
Impact: customer experience unchanged or even worsen cause you need to remember the direction to get to this or that place.

And SIMU got the NERVES to do those events. It's …. crazy

It’s crazy and people are just plain dumb.

The people spending insane amounts of money on these events (everyone here knows who they are here) could be getting more and better stuff at cheaper prices if they just skip out on a couple of events entirely.

Don’t you ever see yourself going, “holy shit these prices keep going up and up every year?!”. Yeah, that’s Wyrom going ,”oh these idiots are willing to buy this bullshit for 500,000 bullshit bucks! well, let’s see if I can get a little bit more out of them this year.”

As soon as we skip a couple of events and Wyrom starts sweating bullets on wtf he’s going to say on his next conference call with Stillfront/Whatley. The next jackpot item is going to be this:

https://p1.gunbroker.com/pics/830795000/830795146/pix463801965.jpg

[GSIV Rogue]

Let’s not kid ourselves here, it would be much easier to milk the mentally unstable for their life savings when they’re so willing to give it up for lines of text.


There is little incentive to change.




SIMU is NOT developing the game. If it wasn't from people like tillmen and others, the game would be DEAD (dead like dragon reamls).


If Tillmen pulled the plug on Lich, there would be hardly anyone left playing to go to P2W events in the first place.


It is truly wild how quickly everyone would run for the exits if Lich ever vanished.


It’s crazy and people are just plain dumb.


https://media2.giphy.com/media/l46CuOwZzL8zxT6Tu/source.gif

https://media2.giphy.com/media/3oEhmISJ7fX70eK4lG/giphy.gif

[Methais]

It’s crazy and people are just plain dumb.

The people spending insane amounts of money on these events (everyone here knows who they are here) could be getting more and better stuff at cheaper prices if they just skip out on a couple of events entirely.

Don’t you ever see yourself going, “holy shit these prices keep going up and up every year?!”. Yeah, that’s Wyrom going ,”oh these idiots are willing to buy this bullshit for 500,000 bullshit bucks! well, let’s see if I can get a little bit more out of them this year.”

As soon as we skip a couple of events and Wyrom starts sweating bullets on wtf he’s going to say on his next conference call with Stillfront/Whatley. The next jackpot item is going to be this:

https://p1.gunbroker.com/pics/830795000/830795146/pix463801965.jpg

The funny part is that Simu tries to say that scaling prices are due to some sort of "preserving game balance" thing or however they word it. :lol:

[audioserf]

Big time carnie/grifter energy with how they change drop rates on the fly and mess with pricing on items after people have already begun to buy them, lol

[Taernath]

The funny part is that Simu tries to say that scaling prices are due to some sort of "preserving game balance" thing or however they word it. :lol:

"It's totally not FOMO guys!" - Wyrom