Maybe I was wrong (gay marriage)

[Keller]

So I said it would only take 5 years before it reached the supreme court and they handed down a ruling in the tradition of Brown V. Board but it looks like it wont take that long.

Liberal Bias (http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/14/gay.marriage.ap/index.html)

At times like this I am proud to live in this great state.

And then this (http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/14/jackson.trial/index.html) happens

[Edaarin]

Wait wait wait...is the lady in the picture of the first article saying she's a second class citizen because she's a lesbian? Or did she realize that all women are second class citizens?

:whistle:

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Edaarin
Wait wait wait...is the lady in the picture of the first article saying she's a second class citizen because she's a lesbian? Or did she realize that all women are second class citizens?

:whistle:

She's not a lesbian. Lesbians are hot and she certainly is not.

[Warriorbird]

:rolls eyes:

Somebody like the girl girl porn?

I like the stress on "Freedom to Marry." Good way of reframing the issue.

[Bobmuhthol]

Why should citizens have that freedom again?

[Gan]

I could honestly care less if like genders want to marry each other. I know one of the issues is whether or not the states will offer benefit coverage and the like (financial reasons)... and the other is a moral/religious reason but damn... lets focus our energies on things that really matter, like kids, medicine, healthcare/science, etc...

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
:rolls eyes:

Somebody like the girl girl porn?



I think that any porn is not out of the picture for him. :lol:

[Bobmuhthol]

Tell that to the people who can't stfu and accept that they can't be legally married.

[Warriorbird]

Why should they? If they want to go through the effort I see no problem with it. Sure as hell ain't harming me.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<lets focus our energies on things that really matter, like kids, medicine, healthcare/science, etc...>>

Unless kids, medicine, healthcare, and science don't affect you.. it does affect you.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Warriorbird
:rolls eyes:

Somebody like the girl girl porn?



I think that any porn is not out of the picture for him. :lol:

Well.. I'm not into some porn.

But show me a guy that doesn't like hot girl on girl action and I'll show you a big fat liar.

[Bobmuhthol]

Vaginas are gross.

[DeV]

1) Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.

2) Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

3) Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

4) Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can't marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.

5) Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were
allowed; the sanctity of Brittany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.

6) Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children.

7) Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

8) Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.

9) Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.

10) Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.

[Gamukak]

I personally dont care if Gays want to marry or can marry....I figure its their choice to be legally miserable if they want to.

I do get a laugh out of the folks who try to say that "God" doesnt want gays to marry, especially ones like the folks in Utah (as right wing and religious a gathering of cultists as you will ever find), but they think this is acceptable:

http://religionnewsblog.com/10415/A-scofflaw-judge

I would much rather see a same sex couple be able to buy a home or get health insurance together than see a polygamist have 120 kids by a dozen different women and having the state pay for it.

All under the protective banner of "Freedom of Religion".

[Brattt8525]

I can see why both sides of the fence feel strongly on this subject. What I cannot understand is why each has to be so oppressive towards each other. I believe that anyone of legal age should be able to marry/join/whatever you wish to call it to whomever they choose. If you don't like it, fine if you do fine this surely isn't the end of the world if it is passed and same sex couples could benefit from their spouses health benefits etc.

Live and let live, sheesh love is hard enough to find in this world as it is.

I actually don't get alot out of lesbian porn :(

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by RangerD1
I actually don't get alot out of lesbian porn :(

PB says you're a liar, Ranger. :flees:

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by DeV
1) Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.

2) Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

3) Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

4) Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can't marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.

5) Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were
allowed; the sanctity of Brittany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.

6) Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children.

7) Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

8) Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.

9) Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.

10) Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.

Very thought provoking, Dev. Thanks for posting this.

[Keller]

Originally posted by Ganalon
I could honestly care less if like genders want to marry each other. I know one of the issues is whether or not the states will offer benefit coverage and the like (financial reasons)... and the other is a moral/religious reason but damn... lets focus our energies on things that really matter, like kids, medicine, healthcare/science, etc...

We could have domestic partnerships or whatever -- but that would amount to separate but equal. Basing my opinion on previous supreme court judgements on separate but equal -- those wont stand either. It would be nice to see this issue resolved in the next two years, even if my prediction is wrong.

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by DeV
1) Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.

2) Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

3) Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

4) Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can't marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.

5) Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were
allowed; the sanctity of Brittany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.

6) Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children.

7) Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

8) Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.

9) Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.

10) Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.

Very thought provoking, Dev. Thanks for posting this.

Aye, as she posted some of the reasons why it is wrong wrong wrong. :smug:

[Drew]

Originally posted by DeV
2) Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

Becoming tall is something that you don't have control over. If you had a 13 year old hang out with a bunch of goths, guess what he would most likely become?



Originally posted by DeV
3) Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

This takes the less viable example of beastiality and but ignores the more viable one of polygamy. Most people oppose polygamy (even many who favour gay marriage), but why? Everyone is of a legal age, all are able to entry into a legal contract, etc.




Originally posted by DeV
7) Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

An aberration does not an example make. It is true that children raised by gay 'parents' are more likely to become gay themselves.




I realize the whole argument was waist-deep in sarcasm, but if you are going to post arguments, let's not make them specious.

[Gamukak]

This takes the less viable example of beastiality and but ignores the more viable one of polygamy. Most people oppose polygamy (even many who favour gay marriage), but why? Everyone is of a legal age, all are able to entry into a legal contract, etc.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, I used to work in Utah for DCFS and its very rare that the children involved in polygamous marraiges are of legal age. Normally, they are 14-15 years old and in the more disgusting branches of the cult (Kingstons were who we dealt with the most), they "Marry" very close in the family (Uncles being most common). There are actually degrees of Incest case workers have to define to work a case...cousin to uncle to father (and yes, fathers "Training" their daughters to be good polygamist wives is very common).

The men involved in polygamy always marry younger and keep marrying the same (early teen) age girls. The general belief among outsiders is that they feel they can gain greater control/the girls are more maellable at that age. The groups also go out of their way to kick out as many young men as possible so as to keep the women for a select few pedophiles (do a google for "Lost Boys Hildale" for more facts on that).

Please dont take this as a slam, its more to enlighten you. Most people outside of Utah dont believe polygamy exists as widely as it does there and they certainly havent heard what it is actually like.

[Drew]

Well, I'm not pro-pologomy by any means, but my point was, if all the participants were 18+ you can have no basis for objection if you allow gay marriage.

[Divinity]

Originally posted by Gamukak
I personally dont care if Gays want to marry or can marry....I figure its their choice to be legally miserable if they want to.

I do get a laugh out of the folks who try to say that "God" doesnt want gays to marry, especially ones like the folks in Utah (as right wing and religious a gathering of cultists as you will ever find), but they think this is acceptable:

http://religionnewsblog.com/10415/A-scofflaw-judge

I would much rather see a same sex couple be able to buy a home or get health insurance together than see a polygamist have 120 kids by a dozen different women and having the state pay for it.

All under the protective banner of "Freedom of Religion".

I read that article and I didn't see anything saying that the state was paying for his 32 kids or his 3 wives.

[Keller]

Originally posted by Drew

Originally posted by DeV
2) Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

Becoming tall is something that you don't have control over. If you had a 13 year old hang out with a bunch of goths, guess what he would most likely become?



Originally posted by DeV
3) Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

This takes the less viable example of beastiality and but ignores the more viable one of polygamy. Most people oppose polygamy (even many who favour gay marriage), but why? Everyone is of a legal age, all are able to entry into a legal contract, etc.




Originally posted by DeV
7) Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

An aberration does not an example make. It is true that children raised by gay 'parents' are more likely to become gay themselves.




I realize the whole argument was waist-deep in sarcasm, but if you are going to post arguments, let's not make them specious.

Height, like sexual preference, is based in DNA with other outside influences. Your friends, unless you consider popularity based on attractiveness, is not determined by your genes. Therefore your goth example is bunk.

I think there are definate legal concerns when it comes to polygamy. Don't mix apples and oranges. I can understand the "the government has to legislate who can marry" vantage point of your bringing this up -- but from the standpoint of legal protection (which I believe most pro-gay marriage arguments make use of) the polygamy example does not work.

"Gay parents raise gay children" -- Considering that sexual preference is determined by genetics I find it hard to believe that being raised by gay parents would have made women unattractive to me. Sorry, I don't buy it. You can always try find some sort of scientific source for this claim though.

[Drew]

Originally posted by Keller
"Gay parents raise gay children" -- Considering that sexual preference is determined by genetics I find it hard to believe that being raised by gay parents would have made women unattractive to me. Sorry, I don't buy it. You can always try find some sort of scientific source for this claim though.


In the research most quoted by people who take your view (research by Susan Golombok and Fiona Tasker was reported in a 1996 issue of Developmental Psychology) they studied 25 children of lesbian single mothers and 21 children of straight single mothers beginning when the children were in elementary school and then again in young adulthood.

They reported the number of children who labeled themselves bisexual or lesbian and then they reported the Kinsey rating of the participants. Kinsey ratings range from 0 to 6 with 0 being exclusively heterosexual and 6 being exclusively homosexual.

Generally, ratings of 2 through 4 are considered descriptive of bisexuality. When documenting the self-labels of the participants, they found two out of 25 children raised by lesbian mothers to be bisexual or gay. None of the children raised by straight single mothers self-identified as gay or bisexual.


Statistically they found this to be within the margin of error and concluded that since two fell within their margin of error that the children were no more likely than straight children to turn gay.

So tally it up in this study:

Children of gay parents who turned gay: 12.5%

Children of straight single mothers who turned gay: 0%





Originally posted by Keller
Considering that sexual preference is determined by genetics

Oh really, cite a source please?

[Edited on 3-15-2005 by Drew]

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Thank god you were lucky enough to be raised by straight parents, Drew.

[Edited on 15-3-05 by Miss X]

[Drew]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
Thank god you were lucky enough to be raised by straight parents, Drew.


Who knows? Maybe.

[Edited on 15-3-05 by Miss X]

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Give me a break, man. You know yourself, you know you're attracted to women. You should also know that nothing could've changed that.

Gay parents don't FORCE homosexuality on their children. When I was a child, Catholocism WAS forced on me. That doesn't mean I'm Catholic now. People can make decisions for themselves. It's common fucking sense.

[Drew]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
Give me a break, man. You know yourself, you know you're attracted to women. You should also know that nothing could've changed that.



My parents also told me that homosexuality was wrong when I was a kid, what if they had told me it was right, you think I would still be in here defending my views? Get with it man. Children of republicans are more likely to be republican, children of democrats , democrats. If what you suggest is correct then America would just be a hodgepodge of Hindu's, Buddhists, Zorastrians, and not predominately Christian. Why are we predominately Christian? Because our parents were, and we were exposed to it in our formative years. We don't just grow up and randomly select a religion/political party/sexuality/spouse, it's not a dice roll, where you come from has a huge effect on all those choices. That's not to say you can't escape what your parents want you to be, but it influences you.

[Edited on 3-15-2005 by Drew]

[Keller]

I was actually refering to JM Bailey's studies of homosexuality between monozygotic and dyzogotic twins separated at birth. The percentages are overwhelmingly in favor of a genetic disposition considering that 52% of monozygotic twins were both gay. Then the dizygotic twins were only at 22%. Sorry, but with a very small portion of our society being gay -- those stats are undeniably pointing towards something other than parenting.

[Keller]

Originally posted by Drew

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
Give me a break, man. You know yourself, you know you're attracted to women. You should also know that nothing could've changed that.



My parents also told me that homosexuality was wrong when I was a kid, what if they had told me it was right, you think I would still be in here defending my views? Get with it man. Children of republicans are more likely to be republican, children of democrats , democrats. If what you suggest is correct then America would just be a hodgepodge of Hindu's, Buddhists, Zorastrians, and not predominately Christian. Why are we predominately Christian? Because our parents were, and we were exposed to it in our formative years. We don't just grow up and randomly select a religion/political party/sexuality/spouse, it's not a dice roll, where you come from has a huge effect on all those choices. That's not to say you can't escape what your parents want you to be, but it influences you.

[Edited on 3-15-2005 by Drew]

Sorry man, but I don't get a fucking hard-on when I think about a naked republican. I do get a hard-on when I think about a naked woman. Again -- we're talking apples and oranges.

[Drew]

Originally posted by Keller
Sorry man, but I don't get a fucking hard-on when I think about a naked republican.

I guess I'm the only one :(

[Alarke]

I'm with Drew here... comparing sexual preference to height is fucking rediculous. Sexuality is very complex... you may be straight, gay, bi, or hell.. bi-curious. how the hell can you say someone bi-curious is like that because of genetics?? It's because of their lifestyle and their influences, including parents, friends, media, and their own views. You can't question your height.

[Caiylania]

I loved DeV's post. It's very true on to how many people view gay marriage and all the stupid things associated with it.

I have gay friends. Young ones, older ones, ones with kids and ones without. One of my mother's friends was a lesbian who had raised three kids. None of them are gay. One of her sons even admitted to me the idea of his mom with another woman was gross but he loved her anyway. She had been openly gay their entire lives (one was adopted the other two were by her ex husband)

I truly accept that homosexuals don't CHOOSE to be gay.

What I don't get is why those against it CARE. They are not hurting anyone. Fight the government about so many other issues that are FAR more important than who your neighbor or strangers marry. Let. it. go.

[Caiylania]

Originally posted by Alarke
I'm with Drew here... comparing sexual preference to height is fucking rediculous. Sexuality is very complex... you may be straight, gay, bi, or hell.. bi-curious. how the hell can you say someone bi-curious is like that because of genetics?? It's because of their lifestyle and their influences, including parents, friends, media, and their own views. You can't question your height.

Bi and gay are apples and oranges in themselves.

To be honest, I thought about experimenting a few times. I have friends that actually did. But I am happily married to a man and greatly enjoy it.

Curious is exactly that, curious.

Why do you think so many gay people get married, stay married, have kids.... fight it for years in a marriage where they can't stand to lay with their spouse but do it because that is what society wants of them. Finally, they admit who they are and families are broken up.

No one should be forced by society to think what and who they are is wrong and they must adapt.

We go out of our way to put ramps and handicapped access everwhere to help those that aren't the same as us. Seeing eye dogs to help the blind, fire alarms that flash special lights to help the deaf.....

Do we tell those born blind they must see or just run into walls?

Now gay people are not handicapped anymore than straight people are, but they are who they are. Instead of forcing them to adapt to our rigid standards of family and marriage, we should let them live their lives.

As I've said before, Ihave gay friends. One told me how through high school he was so terrified of his attraction to boys he almost killed himself. He thought he was corrupt, disgusting. Instead of wanting to date the popular girl, he wanted to date her brother. But of course he dated the girl. He was in utter misery trying to be who society told him he was supposed to be. He believed he wasn't a good person, a normal person.

Should he have stayed in that delusion of misery?

[Edited on 3-15-2005 by Caiylania]

[Keller]

In the vein of Caiy's post -- from my own theological perspective when Paul writes his laundry list of sexual complaints which includes arsenokoitai (man lying with man -- the common practice of a mentor forcing his mentee into sexual acts, aka child molestation) he is making a list of lustful (in search of sexual release) sins. He is not saying that homosexuality is bad. He is saying people who have sex with animals, prostitutes, and children for the sexual pleasure are committing a sin. That is what I think bi-sexuality amounts to. It is a sin, committed by a lustful person, for the sake of sexual release.

But as far as everyday life in America -- if we're going to extend governmental protections and advantages to heterosexual couples who decide to settle down and create a family we ought to provide those same protections and advantages to homosexual couples who want to settle down and start a family. The emphasis needs to be on creating stable homes and not what the parents are doing in their bedrooms.

Edited to add: I forgot to add that I believe it is a societal sin for a community to force a gay man to go against his nature and copulate with a female for sexual release. Again, based on my theological interpretation of Paul.

[Edited on 3-15-2005 by Keller]

[Caiylania]

Originally posted by Keller
The emphasis needs to be on creating stable homes and not what the parents are doing in their bedrooms.

Edited to add: I forgot to add that I believe it is a societal sin for a community to force a gay man to go against his nature and copulate with a female for sexual release. Again, based on my theological interpretation of Paul.

[Edited on 3-15-2005 by Keller]

Yup yup.

[Snapp]

Originally posted by Drew

My parents also told me that homosexuality was wrong when I was a kid, what if they had told me it was right, you think I would still be in here defending my views? Get with it man. Children of republicans are more likely to be republican, children of democrats , democrats. If what you suggest is correct then America would just be a hodgepodge of Hindu's, Buddhists, Zorastrians, and not predominately Christian. Why are we predominately Christian? Because our parents were, and we were exposed to it in our formative years. We don't just grow up and randomly select a religion/political party/sexuality/spouse, it's not a dice roll, where you come from has a huge effect on all those choices. That's not to say you can't escape what your parents want you to be, but it influences you.

[Edited on 3-15-2005 by Drew]

My parents told me homosexuality was wrong too, and guess what? I'm gay anyway. The only thing it affected was making me hate myself for 5+ years first and hide it from them. Having a parent that tells you there is nothing wrong with it only makes you more open-minded.

[Edaarin]

I'm not sure how much anecdotal evidence counts for, but of the four gay people that I know, none of them have gay parents.

[Tsa`ah]

Maya Keyes' parents come to mind in debunking that particular logic.

[Edited on 3-15-2005 by Tsa`ah]

[Brattt8525]

The claiming that gay parents raise gay children is just a very lame and weak attempt at justifying why they believe as they do. Of all the gay people I know, not a single one of them had gay parents. Being gay is not a choice, or maybe it is? You choose to be discriminated against, you choose to have to live in secret to avoid getting ridiculed. You choose to not be able to show any affection to your partner in public, you choose to be with someone invest your lifetime money and feelings into something that their family can rip from your hands upon death. IE house, cars animals etc etc etc.

You choose to not be able to go in and see them if they are in the hospital because only family can get in...Yes so many things they CHOOSE to be subjected too. If your going to be against this at least suck it up and admit why you <collective> really disagree with it. Please don't go and stand on the soapbox of its a choice, because it isn't.

The only choice I personally made was marrying someone so that I didn't hurt my family, that they wouldn't be ashamed of me and who I am. In the end guess what? I hurt another human being and their family because I could never love him, or be who he needed a partner to be. I also hurt myself, hated myself everyday for CHOOSING to be someone who I wasn't. So in the grand spectrum of things that is the only point that I had to choose, I was born this way the same as you <collective> were born as you are. I don't judge you why is it that the general you can judge me?

[CrystalTears]

1) I personally don't give a flying fig who marries who. As long as they're happy, that's all that should matter.

2) I don't represent the USA, so I can't speak for everyone, so I can't make anyone believe what I believe in.

3) Sexuality is not brought on by genetics. They are preferences. Same principle as me liking men more, but liking women as well, and liking all kinds of men and women. NO ONE in my family is gay in any way. The only gay people my family knows are two friends from NY who make the guys in "The Birdcage" look straight.

4) Just because someone has a sexual preference does not mean that the country as a society has to embrace it and support it. There are people who are into beastiality, it doesn't mean we should allow them to marry their dog. There are people who are into S&M, but it doesn't mean that the country as a society needs to have the government create establishments to support their preference.

5) It takes many, many years for a society to change. I think forcing a society to accept them and let them be married legally right now will only backfire and take longer for society to accept it. I hope that they allow civil unions first and allow society time to get used to the idea. Then after a few years of that they can adapt it into a legal marriage. I just don't think you can have it all right away since the need for equality for gay couples is relatively new in the grande scheme of things.

6) Start bashing me for my views. ;)

Edited to ask: How many gay parents do people know, or even know how many there are in the world, to make that kind of analysis of children being born to gay parents?

[Edited on 3/15/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Warriorbird]

I know about four gay couples with children.

I dated one of the couples' daughters.

1. You don't care who marries who... but you're more than willing to support a party that denies the freedom to marry to some folks, folks who even have similar views to you.

2. If people didn't work to make people believe what they believed in...we'd still have slaves.

3. I believe there's likely some genetic component to being gay for some people... or a nurture component. With that said, how the hell do you know? Have you been in their bedrooms?

4. "Just because someone has a sexual preference does not mean that the country as a society has to embrace it and support it." Dogs sure as hell don't count as consenting adults. It amuses me that someone as intelligent as you could play this apples and oranges argument. People who are interested in S&M can definitely get married.

5. "It takes many many years for a society to change."

The Booker T. Washington school of "Let's keep segregation around."

I think you're a fine person. You certainly mean well. I do tend to equate bisexual Republicans with Roy Cohn however.

[CrystalTears]

1) I'm a Republican because I agree with most of their views. Being adamant about not accepting gays into marriages is not one of them.

3) I don't know for sure, not sure what me having to be in their bedroom has to do with anything, but it appears that neither does anyone else. I've heard many sources that state that being gay is not hereditary, it's not genetics, they are just sexual preferences that one is born with. I agree with that. I don't think anyone knows for sure yet. I was wrong to not include "I believe" in the beginning of my statement.

4) S&M enthusiasts getting married is not what I said. I said that establishments shouldn't necessarily be created to support their preference, like S&M lounges or hotels or whatever. Dogs aren't consenting adults, but the ones who want to be with them are. They were just examples that just because someone has a sexual preference that rules and regulations to support it should be put into play just because they have those preferences. It's not that simple, obviously, or gay marriages would be legal by now.

[Edited on 3/15/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Warriorbird]

There are S&M lounges and hotels. I don't think the government is being asked to fund "gay hotels" or "straight hotels".... just allowing gay folks to have spousal inheritance and a bit of pride in themselves. Hell, a lot of the backing for this is from very conservative 1 man/1 man 1 woman/1 woman gay folks.

I support their freedom to marry. It makes me sad that it is a political issue, but I voted for Nader in Bush's first election too. I'll live with it.

[CrystalTears]

Maybe not hotels, but they are asking for government support like allowing to file their taxes together, put each other on their will and such.

I support their freedom to marry as well. The term "marriage" I'm still iffy on and still mulling it over as the marriage of a man and a woman is a standard of society and I really don't know if society is ready to explain all the different kinds of marriages to a child, but again, I'm still iffy on that one. Unfortunately not only is it a political issue but a religious issue as well. :shrug:

[DeV]

Originally posted by Drew
My parents also told me that homosexuality was wrong when I was a kid, what if they had told me it was right, you think I would still be in here defending my views? Get with it man. Children of republicans are more likely to be republican, children of democrats , democrats. If what you suggest is correct then America would just be a hodgepodge of Hindu's, Buddhists, Zorastrians, and not predominately Christian. Why are we predominately Christian? Because our parents were, and we were exposed to it in our formative years. We don't just grow up and randomly select a religion/political party/sexuality/spouse, it's not a dice roll, where you come from has a huge effect on all those choices. That's not to say you can't escape what your parents want you to be, but it influences you.

[Edited on 3-15-2005 by Drew]
I was raised thinking that homosexuality was so wrong it was unspeakable in our home. Christian views from the time one can understand religion to the time one could choose to accept or reject it. My parents are conservative and so are both step-parents. You get the drift.

[Wezas]

Both of my parents are republican.

Shit, wait, does that make me gay? :?:

[Keller]

Originally posted by Wezas
Both of my parents are republican.

Shit, wait, does that make me gay? :?:

and black, according to Bob and then Tijay.

[Theyesman]

The social argument:

Men are predisposed to hate penises. It's always in the way, you can't wear sweatpants as a teenager, there is the constant idea of inequality based on penis size.

Women too hate penises. They just need something to fill them up, and heat sensitive random throbbing dildo's are expensive.


So all in all: It's amazing any men like penises, and it's understandable how a woman could be gay, because the only thing men have that they don't is a penis(which no one likes anyway)

So concludes the social argument.

[CrystalTears]

:wtf2:

[Hanksbane]

In the research most quoted by people who take your view (research by Susan Golombok and Fiona Tasker was reported in a 1996 issue of Developmental Psychology) they studied 25 children of lesbian single mothers and 21 children of straight single mothers beginning when the children were in elementary school and then again in young adulthood.

Because taking a few children in a society where there are thousands gives great research here is mine:

I know a few people who had gay parents and a bunch who didnt, guess where all teh gay people I know came from, straight marriages.

so

Percentage of gay people I know from gay couples - 0%

Percentage of gay people from straight couples - Um i dont really know but its more than 0%

[Warriorbird]

http://www.idrewthis.org/2005/middleclass.gif