Shocking SMR2 Findings. [Archive] - The Gemstone IV Players' Corner

Mobius1

08-23-2019, 03:55 PM

I had looked over Drumpel's research on the subject, and it was great work, but I really wanted to test how it applies to me, a max SMR2 defense trained capped rogue.

The results I found are so shocking to me, I am actually furious.

First of all, I did my tests with a level 100 wizard using 917 at various wizard circle ranks, and as a cleric casting 309. My results between the two were exact.

My goal, was to find out the impact of skills and stats, for someone that is already highly trained in the SMR2 skills at cap (In my case, max trained in all of them.). This is as a human with perfect stats (100 Agi/Dex/Int), wearing no armor, in defensive stance.

So for my first test, I dropped my dodge from 303 ranks to 203 ranks, and saw a loss of.....4 SMR2 defense. At 202 wizard ranks, the chance of hitting me with 917 was 13% at full skills, and 17% at 203 dodge. That's some SERIOUS diminishing returns. At 150 wizard ranks, the wizard had to get an open roll to hit me, at 203 dodge.

Then I tested stats. I put on a +40 Agi +5 Dex enhancive set, and it increased my SMR2 defense by only +2. A +50 PF, +40 Agi, +40 Dex set increased my defense by only +4.

The most shocking thing of all, though, was when I put armor on. At 200 armor use and rank 5 armored evasion, I then put on a set of MBP (So -7 AP). My SMR2 defense dropped by.....0. I then tried it without armored evasion (-12 AP), and my SMR2 defense dropped by...0! So then finally, I dropped my armor use skill from 200 to 80 ranks, giving me -20 AP in my MBP, and my SMR2 defense dropped by an incredibly massive.....ZERO!!!!

Finally, I cast blurs, and 215, and I was able to get my SMR2 defense to drop by 1 by adding -20 Action Penalty.

So what does my testing find? That once you hit these massive diminishing returns, it's not much different than how redux works (a soft cap). It also means that any stat bonus or negative is mostly pointless as long as you are at a certain level past the soft cap, so you are probably better off tanking INT and not INF, since even -25 INT probably won't even decrease your SMR2 defense by even 1.

It also means that, except for the bonus to evade DS (which is super minimal as it is), the bonus to stand RT (lol), and the unknown bonus to SMR (Which Konacon is going to be rolling out a ton of SMR2 conversions for), Action Penalty is essentially a joke. Armor overtraining is a joke, and Armored Evasion is the biggest joke of all.

Konacon said in the Mechanics discord that he will voice my concerns with the powers that be, but he also defended the way it works, saying that even 1% is a significant difference. I obviously disagree, and feel that you get too much SMR2 defense for too little, and not enough for really boosting it high. I also am extremely pissed off to find out how utterly useless AP is. I like to think it at least helps a lot against SMR, as long as that lasts, but who knows...

~Midgar

Ralk

08-23-2019, 10:37 PM

Very interesting results.

Did you end up testing the effects of stance at all?

drumpel

08-24-2019, 12:05 AM

I've done some more testing and retesting and I'm starting to feel that SMRv2 defense is highly impacted by your overall level. The higher the level you are, the lower the returns you see for your SMRv2 defense.

I think this is the case because every level you gain appears to give you a +3 to your SMRv2 defense (as far as I can tell). As you level, the returns diminish a lot on the number of skills you train in. I don't know if I'm explaining this well, but in my head I understand what I mean.....

I don't know if my latest data is stored at work on my computer there or here at home, I'll have to dig around or maybe just do some quick retesting of a couple of things to help better explain what I'm talking about.....I couldn't find what I was looking for here at home, so it must be at work. So, I did a quick test with two different level characters, granted they're not of the same race nor having identical stats, but this is what I was finding when I was testing out various leveld characters vs my near capped mage casting 917 on them.

I went up in ranks that impact SMRv2 defense (perception, CM, PF or dodge - they're all weighted equally so it doesn't matter what skills I trained in) by 10 for each cast.
Remember, the lower your SMRv2 is, the harder you are to hit

Casting mage = 96

Rogue, dwarf, level 49.
No skills, no armor, defensive stance
SMRv2 defense = 184
10 ranks, SMRv2 = 179
20 ranks, SMRv2 = 175
30 ranks, SMRv2 = 171
40 ranks, SMRv2 = 167
50 ranks, SMRv2 = 164
60 ranks, SMRv2 = 161
70 ranks, SMRv2 = 158
80 ranks, SMRv2 = 155
90 ranks, SMRv2 = 153
100 ranks, SMRv2 = 150
110 ranks, SMRv2 = 148
120 ranks, SMRv2 = 146
130 ranks, SMRv2 = 143
140 ranks, SMRv2 = 141
150 ranks, SMRv2 = 139

Wizard, dark elf, level 72
No skills, no armor, defensive stance
SMRv2 defense = 101
10 ranks, SMRv2 = 99
20 ranks, SMRv2 = 97
30 ranks, SMRv2 = 95
40 ranks, SMRv2 = 93
50 ranks, SMRv2 = 90
60 ranks, SMRv2 = 88
70 ranks, SMRv2 = 86
80 ranks, SMRv2 = 84
90 ranks, SMRv2 = 82
100 ranks, SMRv2 = 80
110 ranks, SMRv2 = 79
120 ranks, SMRv2 = 77
130 ranks, SMRv2 = 76
140 ranks, SMRv2 = 74
150 ranks, SMRv2 = 73

As you can see, the higher level character was getting less of a return on his SMRv2 defense with the same number of ranks trained in as the lower level rogue.
Sure, AGI/DEX/INT may play a slight variation here (along with race), but what it looks like is the higher the level you get the less of a return you gain for SMRv2 defense.

This means that either the equation involved with SMRv2 defense is really complicated or simplistically stupid by simply comparing the caster's level and skill (in this case, it would be known Wizard Spell ranks known compared to the caster's level) and the target's level and AGI/DEX/INT....then everything simply follows a sliding scale.

Sinistra

08-24-2019, 12:40 AM

Winter

08-24-2019, 01:30 AM

I wonder how much of a diff racial bonuses or penalties make?

As far as I can tell the difference between good and excellent manoeuvre bonus is roughly 5 points worth of smrv2 defence, it doesn't really balance out the enormous penalties small races get to encumbrance.

Mobius1

08-24-2019, 01:39 AM

Very interesting results.

Did you end up testing the effects of stance at all?

I did not test it beyond the point of confirming that it does make a difference (defensive stance being best.).

As for the thing about levels, I plan to do more testing, but I think it ultimately comes down to some sort of soft cap. My guess is that the diminishing returns come into play not based on any specific source of SMR2 defense, but the sum of them all.

I'm mostly inventing here, but for example, say your SMR2 defense is 0. Every +stat bonus you get, raises it by 1, and every +skill gives you +1, every level +3. But once the combined total is 100, all of those sources give you half their normal bonus. Then once you reach 200, they give 1/4, then 1/8 at 300....and so on and so forth.

Again, I am only inventing numbers here, and it's also possible only certain bonuses have diminishing returns, while others remain static. I certainly can ascertain more if I decide to do more testing.

I did cast 215, and saw that it only gave me a +1 bonus. I would wager that means spell bonuses are also affected by the diminishing returns, which even further fits into my "total sum" diminishing returns theory.

To be frank, though, I may not care to test it much further, since my main aim was to find out the practical application for Midgar. And all I have found out just makes me angry - especially since I devoted so much effort to reducing my AP and increasing my SMR2 defense, all of which now seem pointless due to the pathetic or even non-existent gains.

Realk

08-24-2019, 04:48 AM

seriously white knighting against the cman change to help shorter rogues, whistle blowing against this... What does make you happy? none of your posts since you have came back have been positive.

Realk

08-24-2019, 07:17 AM

not being a cheerleader nor do i care to see who left the negative rep... but i also dont condone making being 100% negative about any change that doesnt effectively make my main stronger. I do agree rogues need some work and what they have got is minimal. just dont shit on things just because you didn't get anything cool out of the deal.

Nephelem

08-24-2019, 07:51 AM

I left the negative Rep. He's bitching while posting useful information in a mechanics thread. You are apparently just here to tell us what you approve of.

Hightower

08-24-2019, 10:10 AM

seriously white knighting against the cman change to help shorter rogues, whistle blowing against this... What does make you happy? none of your posts since you have came back have been positive.

Wow. It looks like he went through a great deal of effort to figure this stuff out and I have to agree that it's pretty shocking how this was designed. I can't say I blame the guy for feeling that rogues are in a terrible state all around. Combat for rogues? Pretty much bottom tier, right? Locksmithing? Basically a complete failure of a system at this point with no will from the GMs to tackle the problem in any meaningful way. You'd think that at least this being one of the areas they are objectively the best at it would at least amount to something, but apparently not. What exactly do you expect him to be positive about?

Mobius1

08-24-2019, 11:57 AM

Donquix

08-24-2019, 12:38 PM

I think what's crazy to me, is people like Realk will defend the way this works.

He probably mains a pure or a semi :D.

Essentially what I found from this, is that a square gets very minimal advantage with SMR2 defense. Something I thought we'd be significantly better at, because we can get 200 ranks more than any other non-square class, turns out to be a pitiful 8% difference. Less if you count the +maneuver spells each semi gets.

Also, as someone who worked months to get the XP for 202 armor use (and +18 armor use enhancives even), am I not right to be disgusted at the fact that it was all for nothing but like +10 DS? I literally saw +0 bonus from dripping all that action penalty. But hey, I'll be able to stand with less RT, right?

What's even worse, is I know for a fact you agree that Rogues are in a bad place, Reallk. Everyone in your HoA club agrees with that.

He's still not wrong though. Remember the other day when you tried to say paying multiple stamina for every attack and spending 20 cman points was "trivial" because it didn't buff your character so you felt slighted? That was pretty hilarious. You sperg out pretty fucking hard on how everything should revolve around not even just rogues but your build specifically, and you monologue about it for like hours on discord. Honestly GM's could kick you out of #mechanics and put you in a clone of the channel where you are the only person there and I think it would take you a solid week to notice.

That said, a lot of stuff with the SMR(1 and 2) is weird. Those do seem like pretty aggressive diminishing returns.

https://i.imgur.com/JynIleF.jpg

Hightower

08-24-2019, 02:40 PM

He's still not wrong though. Remember the other day when you tried to say paying multiple stamina for every attack and spending 20 cman points was "trivial" because it didn't buff your character so you felt slighted? That was pretty hilarious. You sperg out pretty fucking hard on how everything should revolve around not even just rogues but your build specifically, and you monologue about it for like hours on discord. Honestly GM's could kick you out of #mechanics and put you in a clone of the channel where you are the only person there and I think it would take you a solid week to notice.

That said, a lot of stuff with the SMR(1 and 2) is weird. Those do seem like pretty aggressive diminishing returns.

https://i.imgur.com/JynIleF.jpg

I can see how that might get annoying, but I've been there at times myself, so I understand exactly where his frustration is coming from. We put years - decades even! - into our characters here and sometimes the decisions (or lack thereof!) made by the GS devs can be maddeningly out of touch.

There's a reasonable voice in my head telling me that they have their reasons and that the issues I observe go far beyond the scope of the problem they are addressing with a particular change. In this case, I expect they intended SMR to bypass standard defenses which, in many cases, are completely trivialized by spells. Given that, it wouldn't make sense to have rogues be essentially immune to SMR while pures get plowed by them automatically. The range of outcomes is intentionally narrow, as I understand it. That rogues have so many other issues and that this particular design comes across as a bit of a slap in the face had no bearing upon that decision, and that's frustrating. Not least of all because these many other issues likely aren't even on the table for resolution anyway and won't be for years.

I felt the same way about the ELR and, as I predicted, it will have been years before they so much as look at addressing the issues with it. But that wasn't part of the scope of the project. From their perspective, adding any sort of reason at all to train in elemental lore skills was a win for the game. And so it is! That didn't make it any less frustrating to observe that the design is based entirely on low-hanging fruit with no incentives for specialization. That was simply beyond the scope of the project.

Same with the SMR. It has a purpose, and that purpose does not include throwing a bone to rogues. If you're Midgar and every day you look at the extreme disparity between your class and others and get increasingly upset by it, that isn't likely to ease your mind. I get it.

Taernath

08-24-2019, 03:03 PM

They hated Midgar because he told them the truth.

Mobius1

08-24-2019, 06:35 PM

Mobius1

08-26-2019, 11:23 AM

I did some further testing, and here is what I found:

I decided to play semi, and dropped my dodge to 2x and my perception to 2x. Doing so made my SMR2 defense drop by 7-8% (It fluctuated between the two, but landed on 7 more often.).

I put on my +40 Agi +5 Dex set, blurs,215, and going from 3x dodge/perception to 2x, only dropped my SMR2 defense by 6-7 (more often 7).

So with good stats or spells, a semi easily closes the gap on a square even more! Probably even more so depending on race.

Another thing that I tested, is Deflection Mastery, which interestingly is a static boost, and not reduced by the diminishing returns, giving +2 SMR2 defense per rank. In my case, 1 rank of the skill is worth a massive 40 Agi because of these lovely diminishing returns. But this is, in fact, seemingly the only really substantial SMR2 bonus a square actually gets, but a Paladin also gets to join in on the fun.

Also, I didn't do much more stance testing, but did find that going from defensive to offensive dropped my defense by 30, in my case.

But anyways, there you have it - a fully trained semi only has about 7% less SMR2 defense than a fully trained square. Even less difference depending on their other bonuses.

EDIT: Another thing I'd like to point out, is that once SMR is phased out (and for what little we know, it may even be the case with SMR as well, anyways), 3x perception is probably not worth it. At least the other SMR2 stats have value in taking to 3x, but the maneuver bonus is essentially the only point in going to 3x perception, and the bonus to SMR2 is too negligible to really be worth the cost.

gilchristr

08-27-2019, 01:49 AM

Fortybox

08-27-2019, 10:38 AM

I think what's crazy to me, is people like Realk will defend the way this works.

He probably mains a pure or a semi :D.

Essentially what I found from this, is that a square gets very minimal advantage with SMR2 defense. Something I thought we'd be significantly better at, because we can get 200 ranks more than any other non-square class, turns out to be a pitiful 8% difference. Less if you count the +maneuver spells each semi gets.

Also, as someone who worked months to get the XP for 202 armor use (and +18 armor use enhancives even), am I not right to be disgusted at the fact that it was all for nothing but like +10 DS? I literally saw +0 bonus from dripping all that action penalty. But hey, I'll be able to stand with less RT, right?

What's even worse, is I know for a fact you agree that Rogues are in a bad place, Reallk. Everyone in your HoA club agrees with that.

The problem is you want to force your way of training. I look at it differently. Since there are diminishing returns, it gives you flexibility for training post-cap in other things. For example, the XP you poopsocked over for 202 armor use can be put to other skills.

Or you could just reroll because rogues suck and are slightly less suckier than monks.

Mobius1

08-27-2019, 10:56 AM

If its anything like TD, that's a huge practical difference even if the nominal difference isn't much.

For instance, +7td can be the difference between being warded 1 in 20 times, or never. That's a big difference.

Fine, then give me the same TD bonus a semi gets minus 7. And add open rolls to warding rolls while you're at it.

The problem is you want to force your way of training. I look at it differently. Since there are diminishing returns, it gives you flexibility for training post-cap in other things. For example, the XP you poopsocked over for 202 armor use can be put to other skills.

Or you could just reroll because rogues suck and are slightly less suckier than monks.

You better damn well believe I'm going to save those training points by dropping armor use, after what I have learned! But that is in no way any sort of serious defense of the way it is working.

It's not unreasonable for anyone to expect armor overtraining and Armored Evasion to actually be useful, and your "point" still does not account for the other issue with it - That wearing heavy armor gives you no penalty. This means that one of the advantages of wearing lighter armors, is actually not an advantage, when it comes to SMR2.

Also, I am not the only person that overtrains armor, or uses Armored Evasion. This is a slap to the face of anyone else that does. It's also not just rogues that are largely affected by this. A warrior, for example, is much more likely to be overtraining their armor. Also, I know many many rogues that have Armored Evasion, and little do they know that it will be doing jack squat but give them a couple extra DS, once SMR2 fully rolls out.

GSIV Rogue

10-31-2019, 11:47 PM

I know it's a little late, but, I came across this thread while researching SMR2 to decide future training.

First of all, thanks Midgar for doing this research - your first post illustrates exactly what I was needing.

I believe you are justified in your anger - the current state of rogues is awful. Your research shows it is worse than I previously imagined. The only decent overall change for rogues from GSIII to GSIV has been the "viability" of a greater variety of training paths. From the perspective of someone who has played a high level rogue in both environments - the "golden age" for rogues (and squares in general) was about 2001 (before ambushing changes and immediately after mstrike was first implemented).

At level 100+ a properly trained rogue had the potential to:
- Have massive redux while still being able to learn enough spells to be self sufficient
- Cast e-wave (and other spells) in plate
- Hide on everything they hunted with 98-99% success
- Kill everything they hunted in 1 swing with 98-99% success
- Have a secondary form of attack with mstrike for swarms and/or mobs that didn't crit
- Have guild skills which were unnecessary and pure overkill

This was all possible with around 5 million exp. Today, even with max exp. some of this will not be possible. I'd take the above over all the viability of variety training, cman skills, and fluff abilities rogues and warriors have been given over the past 20 years any day. The single worst thing that has ever been done to rogues in the history of GS was nerfing ambush. As a class, rogues have been neutered ever since. The diminishing returns effect for any skills learned post level 100 for all classes is laughable (especially from an ROI for time standpoint). Semis have always been great at higher levels, but I believe rogues had the edge to be #1 in the past. At this point, they are at or near the bottom of the heap.

Semis who hunt as pures are far and away at the top in GSIV (rangers/bards) - and your test results only reiterate this.

I decided to cut my losses (time) and sell my high level rogue and start over with a pure ranger - and couldn't be happier.

Side note - Since you can easily bigshot your way to level 100 in ~1 year and you love PvP - you'll be right back to being able to kill anyone in game in a relatively short amount of time if you decided to reroll / sell out.

Murrandii

11-01-2019, 08:46 AM

Cool story.

A rogue with 120 and 430 is pretty much OP. Reach 125 and 476 = you lose 33% redux but gain so MUCH awesomeness you'll shine like your wife's butt.
MBP + Redux with the DS given with the spells + sunfist, you could hunt in offensive. Go 3x hiding, you could hide from anything. 3x disarm/pick = anything can be taken.

If you want to remain a one shot killer, you need to go OHB or ranged. GO UAC if you wanna evade EBP. That's a fact. Stick to slashing = you're stupid.

With your guild skills and proper cman, you're pretty much immune to almost every manoeuvers post cap. Manoeuvers are what kill people post cap 90% of the time!

...

Saying you could do this or that in gemstone 3 is just old fart nonsense.

You need to plan from day 0 and keep on gaining exp to reach your "prime". Wizards / sorcerers even if powerful, don't reach OPiness until maybe 2x cap. Clerics / empaths / bards are FAR from optimized at fresh cap.

Same goes for rogues. You want to reach god tier ? Go and plan ahead.

Mobius1

11-01-2019, 10:42 AM

Cool story.

I get what you are trying to say, because sometimes people really do make it sound as if rogues are near worthless. But they are definitely the weakest class in terms of hunting ability.

A rogue with 120 and 430 is pretty much OP. Reach 125 and 476 = you lose 33% redux but gain so MUCH awesomeness you'll shine like your wife's butt.

OP compared to what? Other rogues who don't yet have that many spells?

Give any other class that much XP, and rogues will still be at the bottom tier.

MBP + Redux with the DS given with the spells + sunfist, you could hunt in offensive. Go 3x hiding, you could hide from anything. 3x disarm/pick = anything can be taken.

Honestly, the problem with rogues is not that they aren't viable. The problem is they don't really have much that makes them stand out. Every aspect of their hunting ability, can be done better by another class. Hiding? Ranger wins. Killing single targets? Sorcs win (and many other classes).

The things we are supposed to be the best at, we actually aren't. That is one of my fundamental issues with them.

And then look at this SMR2 nonsense. We barely get any advantage at all with it, because of the preposterous soft cap.

If you want to remain a one shot killer, you need to go OHB or ranged. GO UAC if you wanna evade EBP. That's a fact. Stick to slashing = you're stupid.

If you have 76 ranks in MnE, I really don't think it matters too much what weapon type you use, with all that AS. In fact, in most cases, a dagger would be the superior weapon over anything else, for the reduced RT.

Though I do agree that I see some rogues making poor choices with their weapons - RP is, and should be, the largest factor when choosing a weapon to use. I don't think most rogues want their character to be a mace or bow wielder. Not only that, but certain edged weapons, like daggers, are actually quite good unless the target is in plate (Or your AS is trash.)

With your guild skills and proper cman, you're pretty much immune to almost every manoeuvers post cap. Manoeuvers are what kill people post cap 90% of the time!

Most classes can decently deal with maneuvers. And cmans can be a problem for everyone, even rogues. As far as being immune, well - We can be pretty hard to land SMR2 on, but a semi is right behind us in that regard (If you read my findings in this thread.).

But that hardly matters in game, same as redux, etc. - It hardly matters when another class can simply disable and/or kill the entire room, thus being subjected to far less maneuvers than we are. Hell, I'm probably subjected to maneuvers 10 times as much as many other classes, so my advantage is effectively lost in that regard.

But even so, I won't deny the advantage we have with maneuvers. But I will argue that it is not very valuable compared to the benefits other classes get. And the bonus we get can be pretty tiny, as my SMR2 research found.

In the end, if you have a 2x capped character, even a rogue, you are going to be in a good place when it comes to your ability to hunt successfully and not die. But you are going to take longer to hunt solo, be terrible in a group, and be worse off than every other class.

Is it all doom and gloom for rogues? By all means, no. But is it pretty much widely accepted that we are the worst class? Yes.

I personally find rogues to be the most OP class, because pickpocketing :D. And like hell I'd ever reroll - funny as this may sound, I actually don't mind where rogues are at, myself. I enjoy playing the underdogs in any game I play, and I do just bloody fine with my rogue. The only reason I advocate so much for rogues, is because I've had so many of my friends leave, and I'd rather have more rogues around, more than anything else.

Fierna

11-01-2019, 11:17 AM

I get what you are trying to say, because sometimes people really do make it sound as if rogues are near worthless. But they are definitely the weakest class in terms of hunting ability.

OP compared to what? Other rogues who don't yet have that many spells?

Give any other class that much XP, and rogues will still be at the bottom tier.

Honestly, the problem with rogues is not that they aren't viable. The problem is they don't really have much that makes them stand out. Every aspect of their hunting ability, can be done better by another class. Hiding? Ranger wins. Killing single targets? Sorcs win (and many other classes).

The things we are supposed to be the best at, we actually aren't. That is one of my fundamental issues with them.

And then look at this SMR2 nonsense. We barely get any advantage at all with it, because of the preposterous soft cap.

If you have 76 ranks in MnE, I really don't think it matters too much what weapon type you use, with all that AS. In fact, in most cases, a dagger would be the superior weapon over anything else, for the reduced RT.

Though I do agree that I see some rogues making poor choices with their weapons - RP is, and should be, the largest factor when choosing a weapon to use. I don't think most rogues want their character to be a mace or bow wielder. Not only that, but certain edged weapons, like daggers, are actually quite good unless the target is in plate (Or your AS is trash.)

Most classes can decently deal with maneuvers. And cmans can be a problem for everyone, even rogues. As far as being immune, well - We can be pretty hard to land SMR2 on, but a semi is right behind us in that regard (If you read my findings in this thread.).

But that hardly matters in game, same as redux, etc. - It hardly matters when another class can simply disable and/or kill the entire room, thus being subjected to far less maneuvers than we are. Hell, I'm probably subjected to maneuvers 10 times as much as many other classes, so my advantage is effectively lost in that regard.

But even so, I won't deny the advantage we have with maneuvers. But I will argue that it is not very valuable compared to the benefits other classes get. And the bonus we get can be pretty tiny, as my SMR2 research found.

In the end, if you have a 2x capped character, even a rogue, you are going to be in a good place when it comes to your ability to hunt successfully and not die. But you are going to take longer to hunt solo, be terrible in a group, and be worse off than every other class.

Is it all doom and gloom for rogues? By all means, no. But is it pretty much widely accepted that we are the worst class? Yes.

I personally find rogues to be the most OP class, because pickpocketing :D. And like hell I'd ever reroll - funny as this may sound, I actually don't mind where rogues are at, myself. I enjoy playing the underdogs in any game I play, and I do just bloody fine with my rogue. The only reason I advocate so much for rogues, is because I've had so many of my friends leave, and I'd rather have more rogues around, more than anything else.

You have an interesting theory. I wonder how you rank the various professions in terms of hunting? Namely,

Single target killing ... Crowd-Control/Multi Killing ... Survivability/Tankiness

1.)Wizard
2.)Sorcerer
3.)Cleric
4.)Empath
.
.
so forth.

GSIV Rogue

11-01-2019, 02:41 PM

they are definitely the weakest class in terms of hunting ability.

OP compared to what? Other rogues who don't yet have that many spells?

Give any other class that much XP, and rogues will still be at the bottom tier.

Honestly, the problem with rogues is not that they aren't viable. The problem is they don't really have much that makes them stand out. Every aspect of their hunting ability, can be done better by another class.

The things we are supposed to be the best at, we actually aren't. That is one of my fundamental issues with them.

And then look at this SMR2 nonsense. We barely get any advantage at all with it, because of the preposterous soft cap.

Most classes can decently deal with maneuvers. And cmans can be a problem for everyone, even rogues. As far as being immune, well - We can be pretty hard to land SMR2 on, but a semi is right behind us in that regard (If you read my findings in this thread.).

In the end, if you have a 2x capped character, even a rogue, you are going to be in a good place when it comes to your ability to hunt successfully and not die. But you are going to take longer to hunt solo, be terrible in a group, and be worse off than every other class.

But is it pretty much widely accepted that we are the worst class? Yes.

Yes!

https://media0.giphy.com/media/26BGKHrjfTMZX4g9y/source.gif

It took me about 2 weeks of messing around with my rogue to figure this out on my own and decide it just wasn't worth the aggravation.

GSIV Rogue

11-01-2019, 02:50 PM

so MUCH awesomeness you'll shine like your wife's butt.

Saying you could do this or that in gemstone 3

You need to plan from day 0 and keep on gaining exp to reach your "prime"

god tier

https://media2.giphy.com/media/EOJ5HaVpETWxO/source.gif

Murrandii

11-01-2019, 02:59 PM

GSIV Rogue

11-01-2019, 03:04 PM

You have an interesting theory. I wonder how you rank the various professions in terms of hunting? Namely,

Single target killing ... Crowd-Control/Multi Killing ... Survivability/Tankiness

I know this was directed at Midgar, but I rank rangers and bards at the top because of their overall abilities with all aspects of combat - they are the most well-rounded without any glaring weaknesses. Same reason why humans are the best race, overall, mechanically. It's about being good - very good at everything vs. being the best at one thing.

Mobius1

11-01-2019, 03:13 PM

I know this was directed at Midgar, but I rank rangers and bards at the top because of their overall abilities with all aspects of combat - they are the most well-rounded without any glaring weaknesses. Same reason why humans are the best race, overall, mechanically. It's about being good - very good at everything vs. being the best at one thing.

I agree with the bards/rangers thing. Though Wizards have more flexibility, and sorcs/empaths can really tear it up. I'd rate wizards and sorcs as the top classes overall, because they are extremely powerful and self reliant throughout almost all of their tenure, and they have utility skills that dwarf all others by far (enchant/ensorcell).

Combat wise, bards can become absolute monsters post cap, though, and they rate #1 in terms of hunting, at that point. And purifying gems and lore singing is pretty damn nice utility.

But I have to absolutely disagree with the humans thing. I actually rate them as one of the bottom tier races. They get no real meaningful bonuses, and stats are mostly trivial under a great deal of systems. In the systems where stats do matter, there are much better choices than humans.

Personally, I'd rate Halflings as the best race. +40 TD is a god tier bonus (And most people here probably know how I feel about this, already :D! It was even pointed out in this thread how I was pissed off about the new Acrobat's Leap skill, since Halflings already WERE too OP, and didn't need one of their few weaknesses negated.).

Humans are totally meh, and lackluster. Like rogues, they have no real strengths, which makes them bottom tier.

Fierna

11-01-2019, 03:48 PM

Bards need to be nerfed. They are just too good at like every fucking aspect of the game.

GSIV Rogue

11-01-2019, 04:12 PM

Though Wizards have more flexibility, and sorcs/empaths can really tear it up.

I dislike pures inability to easily train in combat skills which make them more survivable. They have a tendency to be "glass cannons."

Combat wise, bards can become absolute monsters post cap, though, and they rate #1 in terms of hunting, at that point.

Arguments could be made for bards vs. rangers being #1 - which is why I ranked them equally.

But I have to absolutely disagree with the humans thing. I actually rate them as one of the bottom tier races. They get no real meaningful bonuses, and stats are mostly trivial under a great deal of systems. In the systems where stats do matter, there are much better choices than humans.

Personally, I'd rate Halflings as the best race. +40 TD is a god tier bonus

Humans are totally meh, and lackluster. Like rogues, they have no real strengths, which makes them bottom tier.

+40 TD, maneuver dodging, and fast spirit regen are god tier bonuses - however - low HP, encumbrance issues, and height are god tier weaknesses.

The fact that humans have no inherent weaknesses is their greatest strength. Decent HP, strength / encumbrance, and spirit regen are also good bonuses. Paired with the correct class, training, and hunting strategies makes them #1 for me. A strong case could be made for half-elves as well - but I dislike their TD penalties. Rogues are going to be in the bottom tier at PvE regardless of race selection, training, and stats. Ultimately, of course, any race / class / training / stats can make it to 100+ and be ok. It really all depends on your style of play and what you are looking for.

Side note - For this comparison I disregarded utility skills and only considered PvE - all other things being equal.

Mobius1

11-01-2019, 04:17 PM

Bards need to be nerfed. They are just too good at like every fucking aspect of the game.

Say the N word around here, and they will tar and feather you! :D

Honestly, I think all the non-square classes are pretty decently balanced. There real rift is between Squares and everyone else.

I even think clerics are good. You want to know what class I think has the best survivability/tankiness? Not warriors....I'd give that award to clerics. 319, anyone?

GSIV Rogue

11-01-2019, 04:33 PM

There real rift is between Squares and everyone else.

Very true.

Fierna

11-01-2019, 04:35 PM

Say the N word around here, and they will tar and feather you! :D

Honestly, I think all the non-square classes are pretty decently balanced. There real rift is between Squares and everyone else.

I even think clerics are good. You want to know what class I think has the best survivability/tankiness? Not warriors....I'd give that award to clerics. 319, anyone?

Let me guess, 319 doesn’t drop on scrolls or imbeds?

Mobius1

11-01-2019, 04:38 PM

Let me guess, 319 doesn’t drop on scrolls or imbeds?

Actually, you can simply get it imbedded with 325. But they changed the way the hidden warding roll works, to prevent non-clerics from making good use of it.

Fierna

11-01-2019, 04:49 PM

Actually, you can simply get it imbedded with 325. But they changed the way the hidden warding roll works, to prevent non-clerics from making good use of it.

lol, Estild, gatekeeping his own profession since the Wizard tears.

Maerit

11-01-2019, 04:58 PM

I've used 319 from scrolls with 202 Arcane Symbols at cap, and have had some minor success seeing it activate on say Lurks in SoS. Seems to be about a 25% chance to activate for my sorcerer when used from a scroll on lower than cap creatures. Suffice to say, I don't bother with 319 all that much unless I'm headed to somewhere with a lot of swarms that can RT lock you. Probably worth it for a warcamp, Reim, or SoS.

Mobius1

11-01-2019, 05:06 PM

lol, Estild, gatekeeping his own profession since the Wizard tears.

Well, at least it kept what I consider to be one of the dumbest spells ever implemented, from only being abused by one class, and thankfully that class is at least slightly less powerful than many of the others.

Of course, that's just my opinion, and I'm sure many would disagree.

Whirlin

11-01-2019, 05:41 PM

That's quite an amazing find Mobius, and absolutely interesting information. Thank you for the time and energy to research it.

Quite a few posts to go through, but my replies are specifically pointing out the early posts regarding armor use.

There's something more that your research also pointed to that I had noted in my previous bout of research... I was never able to find base Action Penalties associated with armor before any training, nor was I able to find out the relationship between how action penalties and how armor use mitigates them on a per rank/bonus perspective. For all I know, full plate begins with 22716292 points of action penalty, mitigating a ton of points per rank.. so those additional 50 ranks mitigating a handful definitely already imply a massive diminishing return. However, if you're able to find this info somewhere, let me know, it's been a while since I've looked for it.

There's also still a nice benefit with overtraining armor use for the DFRedux points... and as you mentioned, the evade penalty reduction... but I completely agree that it may be a much lower priority based on the lack of impact to SMRv2 defenses.

My only critique is on the perception of SMRv2... SMRv2 is a new framework that establishes a set of skills that are used for offensive and defensive rolls. Any single SMR2 attack can have it's own weighting on how it calculates out the attack side, and can have it's own weighting on the defense side. For example, Spell ranks can add 1 to the attack roll for 917 while only adding .94 to the attack roll for 309. Similarly, perception may have a minimal impact 917 defense, but under the SMRv2 framework, it could be the most important defense for a Roa'ter Burrow (this is just an example). The reason SMRv2 was considered revolutionary is that it centralized a rolling schema that could be centrally applied to multiple custom defined functions. So no longer were devs coding their own creature maneuvers in some obscure line of spaghetti, but now they can simply call the SMRv2 function with a few variables to run the same command in a more systemically streamlined approach. It also gave a defined list of things that were part of the SMRv2 defense calculations, so that we players understood things we could train in that could impact defenses. As more things transition to SMRv2, we may see more volatility in the weighting/calculation approach, but we won't see the same radical differentiation that we saw with legacy creature maneuvers.

SMRv2 aside, I completely agree with you, and I think Action Penalties in generally underutilized, and that we don't really have a good understanding of what a -20 action penalty (for your MBP example) really means compared to where we began, and it's implications along the way training.

Leafiara

11-01-2019, 05:48 PM

Mobius1

11-01-2019, 06:05 PM

Any single SMR2 attack can have it's own weighting on how it calculates out the attack side, and can have it's own weighting on the defense side.

After speaking with Konacon in Discord, he confirmed with me that SMR2 defense works exactly the same way with all skills (Excepting the cases where shield use or survival skill is also a factor.).

The unfortunate thing about perception, is it has no real value outside of maneuver defense. No redux, no DS, etc..

But in the end, the most unfortunate thing is the Action Penalty. It's a damn shame how inconsequential it is. It led me to drop my armor ranks from 220 down to 80, and learn 430 instead, which is stupidly more beneficial to me.

To me, rogues feel like a relic of an old era when:

It's hard to deny that a +115 end roll guaranteeing a death crit was the glory days of rogues.

Granted, I wouldn't take the old days back, even so. The crit changes were a nerf to falchions and handaxes, but a major boon to all the weapons that were once useless. In GS3, a dagger was no better than a smooth stone. Now it's actually a completely viable weapon for a rogue.

But yeah, NPC locksmiths were the death of player locksmithing. That and so many rogues quitting the game that pocket pickers sold like hotcakes.

By now all the rogue perks are things I don't really care about. It's a shame, but it's where we're at.

That's just hurtful. We still have the most dashing good looks, whatever else may be!

Fierna

11-01-2019, 06:08 PM

What crit changes? And there are uncrittable critters at cap? :(

Mobius1

11-01-2019, 06:14 PM

What crit changes? And there are uncrittable critters at cap? :(

Anything non-corp is uncrittable, and therefore a very bad target for a rogue.

As for crit changes, the crit divisors used to vary between each weapon type (If memory serves. It's been a long time.). Now they are flat based on armor group. Also, they added crit randomization, and made it so that you can have less than 5 second RT with smaller weapons.

GSIV Rogue

11-01-2019, 06:21 PM

To me, rogues feel like a relic of an old era when:

You couldn't just pay silver to NPC locksmiths to save time (and save TPs for the rogues themselves).

Filling your exp pool on a supernode was awesome because there was no alternative of the adventurer's guild giving saturated experience. (And no Gift of Lumnis, no Rings of Lumnis brooches, no LTE boosts...)

Cap was a really faraway thing for most people, so profession balance would be mostly about pre-cap hunting grounds where (I assume) ambushing rogues and archer rogues are just fine. Instead it's usually about post-cap, where you're basically always dealing with swarms, uncrittable enemies, or even sheer fear (liches).

By now all the rogue perks are things I don't really care about. It's a shame, but it's where we're at.

@Relics - Yes. Nerfed relics.

@NPC Locksmiths / Exp. supdernode / Cap - At the time when the highest level creature in the game was 128 (vaespilons) - and there was no level cap - you could get to level 138 from hunting. After that, with 40 ranks of pick / disarm you could sit in the East Tower and stay fried nonstop picking pooka and below boxes while interacting with other characters, helping new adventurers, taking an occasional PvP break, etc.

@Hunting - There was no archery. A redux rogue with 3x hiding, max AS / ambushing skills, spells, and multi-opps was the equivalent of a walking God. This was possible to do by ~level 110 (while you were still leveling up - not hunting the same mobs over and over again for a decade+ while staying the same level and "rounding out" your skills) Everything crittable died on a 107-115+ endroll. Ambush never missed unless there was a fumble or your AS just wasn't high enough.

@ "Perks" - Rogues went from being my absolute favorite class to play to getting shafted so hard in the current game environment (ambush, casting in heavy armor, pickpocketing, cman smastery :lol: :lol: :lol:, SMR2 diminishing returns, etc.) that I'd never consider creating another one.

GSIV Rogue

11-01-2019, 06:24 PM

Also, they added crit randomization, and made it so that you can have less than 5 second RT with smaller weapons.

I'd rather have +1 RT and kill with a falchion or a waraxe in one shot 98-99% of the time vs. the abysmal crit randomization system currently in place. Far and away the worst thing ever done to rogues.

Mobius1

11-01-2019, 06:40 PM

I'd rather have +1 RT and kill with a falchion or a waraxe in one shot 98-99% of the time vs. the absolutely horrendously terrible crit randomization system currently in place. Far and away the worst thing ever done to rogues.

Combat is actually faster for us now, IMO, even though we lost the 115 end roll death crits. We now have EBP, which does suck, but now we have stance pushdown and shadow mastery. Before, hiding was always 3 seconds, and ambushing was 5 seconds minimum. Also, even at 2x CM, it generally was not enough to overcome the DS of the critter, so you usually had to do something to prone it first, like sweep or ewave.

With stance pushdown, you get to bypass all the frills and just kill it. And you can hide in 2 seconds, or 0 if you vanish. And sneak in 1 second, which is what I always do to move around a hunting ground.

As for spells, we actually have more access to them now, than we did before, since they dropped in cost (I think it was 80 MTP in GS3? Now 67.).

Also a BIG BIG BIG change that you are probably not thinking about, is the dodging skill. Before, shield was the only way for us to get DS. Because of dodging, we can now get way more DS than we ever could in GS3. Also, we have combat maneuvers - a couple of which I've already mentioned, but there are others that are pretty useful to us too.

We also have ensorcell now, which helps us shore up one of our largest weaknesses (TD.).

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more GS3 sucked compared to now. And there were no Shimmer Trinkets, which is all kinds of hell no!!

Geijon

11-01-2019, 08:02 PM

This post in general about SMR2 is interesting. In a lot of gaming environments though even this minuscule advantage is a positive, think World of Warcraft raiding etc.

Xred

11-01-2019, 08:44 PM

So for a Sorcerer’s smr2 Bandit defense. What should I prioritize? Xred has 42 ranks in CM and in 110 perception. CM or Perception?

GSIV Rogue

11-01-2019, 08:56 PM

Combat is actually faster for us now, IMO, even though we lost the 115 end roll death crits. We now have EBP, which does suck, but now we have stance pushdown and shadow mastery. Before, hiding was always 3 seconds, and ambushing was 5 seconds minimum. Also, even at 2x CM, it generally was not enough to overcome the DS of the critter, so you usually had to do something to prone it first, like sweep or ewave.

With stance pushdown, you get to bypass all the frills and just kill it. And you can hide in 2 seconds, or 0 if you vanish. And sneak in 1 second, which is what I always do to move around a hunting ground.

If it weren't for crit randomization, I'd agree with you. The times where combat is faster doesn't make up for the times it is way slower and a lot more dangerous (missing location, no instant crit, EBP, etc.). This presents other problems like being caught in the open. A rogue's greatest strength was always the ability to kill reliably and remain relatively safe. Shadow mastery would be superb if there were no cooldown period/stamina penalty - which can create issues with running it constantly - even with 2x PF at high levels. Same for vanish. The hiding penalty and relatively high cost of using this makes it average at best. I never used guild skills for hunting in GSIII or GSIV - but being able to e-wave in plate was huge for crowd control. When creatures stood from being prone they did so in a more offensive stance. Hiding and waiting for a creature action (or peering / sneaking / waiting for a creature action) worked wonderfully - because this would lower stance without the need for pushdown. In the end, the slightly slower setup with the return of nearly guaranteed success and safety trumps any available hunting method in the current system.

As for spells, we actually have more access to them now, than we did before, since they dropped in cost (I think it was 80 MTP in GS3? Now 67.).

You are correct - it was 80 MTP to learn spells in GSIII. I dislike learning spells at the expense of redux. Without a level cap in place, rogues were able to have the best of both worlds.

Also a BIG BIG BIG change that you are probably not thinking about, is the dodging skill. Before, shield was the only way for us to get DS. Because of dodging, we can now get way more DS than we ever could in GS3. Also, we have combat maneuvers - a couple of which I've already mentioned, but there are others that are pretty useful to us too.

I dislike the addition of the dodging skill as it relates to squares. The entire EBP system leaves a lot to be desired for them. DS was *NEVER* an issue in GSIII for squares after the implementation of redux. Dodging is just a skill that was added and made necessary for squares to be viable. It eats up a ton of PTPs which are already in short supply - without a lot of ROI. Pre-cap, you're better off 2x PF and 1x Dodge as a square - post cap it doesn't matter because all of your skills are subject to diminishing returns anyway and you're already level 100. There is not a single skill on the entire cman list (or any combination of them) that I would rather have than a rogue's previous ability to kill safely and reliably.

We also have ensorcell now, which helps us shore up one of our largest weaknesses (TD.).

You could learn spells in both games, but with less penalty to redux in GSIII (no level cap).

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more GS3 sucked compared to now. And there were no Shimmer Trinkets, which is all kinds of hell no!!

As long as you are happy, that is all that matters. We all have to find our own motivation for playing. As I stated before, any race / class / training / stats = can make it to 100+ in GSIV. In the end it all comes down to how you enjoy spending your time. There are a lot of positives to the current gaming environment. The lich / bigshot combination is #1 for me by far - without which I wouldn't play. Semis are more powerful than ever before. People are still buying silvers. In the end:

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself."
~ George Bernard Shaw

Mobius1

11-03-2019, 05:16 PM

This post in general about SMR2 is interesting. In a lot of gaming environments though even this minuscule advantage is a positive, think World of Warcraft raiding etc.

The main difference between GS and other games, is that GS is not attrition based combat. Generally when you get killed, it was due to one single attack against you, that either killed you outright, or set you up to be killed.

When you are talking a 4% difference in avoidance, in GS that just won't really translate into any noticeable difference, unless it actually puts you at or above 100% avoidance chance (which can't happen with SMR2 due to open rolls.).

Not that 4% difference is nothing. But part of the problem is that I am referring to it in terms of %. The reality is it's the same thing as +4 TD in the warding equation. Imagine if you could spend 100 ranks on lores, to increase a spell's TD bonus by 4 - Would it be worth the TPs? Only if the lore was actually valuable for something else - I doubt anyone would do it JUST for the TD.

Like I had said earlier in this thread (I think it was this thread. Maybe it was Discord.) - If Squares are supposed to be the best at SMR2 avoidance, do you really think that being only +7 SMR2 defense higher from their TWO HUNDRED extra ranks, is much of an improvement? Give me the same TD bonus as a semi, less 7, and then maybe I'd be a little more content with it working as it is.

The times where combat is faster doesn't make up for the times it is way slower and a lot more dangerous (missing location, no instant crit, EBP, etc.).

EBP is the only one that really makes it any more dangerous. Even if you miss the aimed location it will at least stun them for a very long time.

But unlike GS3, we have many new tools to deal with that. TWC actually is viable now, unlike back then, and so if your first swing is avoided, the second will probably land. Also, Vanish is fantastic, and is perfect for those moments when you get evaded.

Also, since we have shadow mastery and can sneak around the hunting area, this exposes is to far less attacks than ever before. Even if you were fast, you couldn't always get an attack in before getting casted on, in GS3. Now with the ability to sneak all around, you always get to make sure you get the first attack. You can even time the combat round if needed, by striking after they search for you.

There is also Whirling Dervish, and the ability to ambush with 2 weapons in 4 seconds, and kill two critters at once. Also, if you use small weapons, you can get your aim chance to like 90% or so.

Let's not forget the other great cmans (and shield skills if you go that route.), that increase your TD, strength, and whatever else. We also have enhancives, which coupled with stance pushdown pretty much negates any of the issues we took on because of crit randomization.

I would say that AT BEST, GS3 ambush was equal to what it is now, though I'd say it's far worse. Try hunting the Scatter and tell me you want the old GS3 system back! You'd get wrecked by Fetish Masters and Liches without stance pushdown and vanish.

My biggest issue with GS3 rogues, were that you had only 3 weapons to choose from (Mace, Falchion, or Handaxe), and the rest were 100% junk. You also had to use a shield, since TWC and Ranged were unviable. Now both those latter options are awesome, and Ranged is arguably the best weapon a rogue can use. And you can actually wield pretty much any weapon you want, and make it work for you now.

But clearly a lot of change IS needed. Are things better than they were? I think so. But compared to the other classes, we have progressed too little.

I would love to see EBP not work against ambush, or be significantly diminished - Honestly it only makes sense. And though the introduction of the EBP system was good for squares in one regard, it was actually more of a nerf than it was a bonus, because critters also got it. Meanwhile, pures (and semi's that are pures) got nothing but benefits from it, because their spells aren't impacted, but they can EBP attacks against them.

I dislike learning spells at the expense of redux.

The spell penalty is insignificant at the amount of ranks a rogue would learn.

DS was *NEVER* an issue in GSIII for squares after the implementation of redux. Dodging is just a skill that was added and made necessary for squares to be viable.

I prefer it this way. 90% redux with padded plate was just plain silly and needed to go. This is a better system. (Also, DS is sure nice for critters with flares and other goodies they get you with even on a low damage hit.).

Pre-cap, you're better off 2x PT and 1x Dodge as a square - post cap it doesn't matter because all of your skills are subject to diminishing returns anyway and you're already level 100. There is not a single skill on the entire cman list (or any combination of them) that I would rather have than a rogue's previous ability to kill safely and reliably.

Quite frankly, you haven't played a rogue post cap to really be able to say those things. Your old build would get WRECKED by crystal weapon ambushes in OTF (Ithzir ambush you and crystal weapons flare, and will very much kill you on an otherwise 1 damage hit. And you can't avoid it because it's an ambush.). You'd also get wrecked in the Scatter. I wouldn't dare go to SoS without Vanish. Been a while since I hunted Nelemar, but maybe that would be your only good option (Again, this is all if you could hypothetically hunt in these places as a GS3 rogue.).

The capped hunting grounds make the earlier hunting grounds look like child's play!

As for 1x dodge pre-cap? 2x dodging is WAY more valuable than 2x PF. 2x PF is not THAT valuable. 2x dodge should be the standard for a pre-cap rogue.

Winter

11-03-2019, 05:38 PM

But they changed the way the hidden warding roll works, to prevent non-clerics from making good use of it.

When was 319 changed?

GSIV Rogue

11-03-2019, 06:36 PM

EBP is the only one that really makes it any more dangerous. Even if you miss the aimed location it will at least stun them for a very long time.

But unlike GS3, we have many new tools to deal with that. TWC actually is viable now, unlike back then, and so if your first swing is avoided, the second will probably land. Also, Vanish is fantastic, and is perfect for those moments when you get evaded.

Also, since we have shadow mastery and can sneak around the hunting area, this exposes is to far less attacks than ever before. Even if you were fast, you couldn't always get an attack in before getting casted on, in GS3. Now with the ability to sneak all around, you always get to make sure you get the first attack. You can even time the combat round if needed, by striking after they search for you.

I don't want to stun things for a very long time. I want to kill them in one shot. See my points about shadow mastery and vanish in my previous post.

There is also Whirling Dervish, and the ability to ambush with 2 weapons in 4 seconds, and kill two critters at once. Also, if you use small weapons, you can get your aim chance to like 90% or so.

Sounds cool. My level 81 rogue with maxed ambushing skills in GSIV missed an aimed location on a kobold using a dagger.

Let's not forget the other great cmans (and shield skills if you go that route.), that increase your TD, strength, and whatever else. We also have enhancives, which coupled with stance pushdown pretty much negates any of the issues we took on because of crit randomization.

See my comments about cmans and rogue fluff abilities in my previous posts.

I would say that AT BEST, GS3 ambush was equal to what it is now, though I'd say it's far worse. Try hunting the Scatter and tell me you want the old GS3 system back! You'd get wrecked by Fetish Masters and Liches without stance pushdown and vanish.

My biggest issue with GS3 rogues, were that you had only 3 weapons to choose from (Mace, Falchion, or Handaxe), and the rest were 100% junk. You also had to use a shield, since TWC and Ranged were unviable. Now both those latter options are awesome, and Ranged is arguably the best weapon a rogue can use. And you can actually wield pretty much any weapon you want, and make it work for you now.

There is no basis for comparison, so it's irrelevant. The Scatter didn't exist and was designed with a different system in mind. I will reiterate what I stated earlier. In terms of combat, I'd take an almost guaranteed chance for success over variety. The specific application of this is also irrelevant. The point is, the relative PvE abilities of rogues - game for game - has gone from one of the best, to one of the worst. The primary reason for this is crit randomization. The rest is just conversation.

The spell penalty is insignificant at the amount of ranks a rogue would learn.

I prefer it this way. 90% redux with padded plate was just plain silly and needed to go. This is a better system.

Based on your previous comments about being an underdog, I can understand that you would enjoy playing one of the weakest classes in the game. I prefer the opposite.

Quite frankly, you haven't played a rogue post cap to really be able to say those things. Your old build would get WRECKED by crystal weapon ambushes in OTF (Ithzir ambush you and crystal weapons flare, and will very much kill you on an otherwise 1 damage hit. And you can't avoid it because it's an ambush.). You'd also get wrecked in the Scatter. I wouldn't dare go to SoS without Vanish. Been a while since I hunted Nelemar, but maybe that would be your only good option (Again, this is all if you could hypothetically hunt in these places as a GS3 rogue.).

The capped hunting grounds make the earlier hunting grounds look like child's play!

I don't need to play a gimped character for 10+ years at the same level to figure out that it is never going to be as good as a character from a more powerful class with the same experience. It'd be disappointing and frustrating. I would rather cut my losses and start over - which is what I did.

Your other comments - as previously - have no basis for comparison so are irrelevant. The only thing we have to compare is relative PvE power of a rogue in either game. They could just as easily have given rogues their current GSIV abilities without adding crit randomization. If that were the case, I may be inclined to agree on the "improvement" of rogues. However, for arguments sake - if I were forced to choose - I'd still choose my old ability to ambush over the entire cman list, shield skills, enhancives, variety of weapon styles, 2 extra guild skills, armor specializations, fluff titles, shimmer trinkets, etc. - every single time!

You stated previously in this thread:

It's hard to deny that a +115 end roll guaranteeing a death crit was the glory days of rogues.

I agree with this 100%. You now appear to be contradicting your own statement by defending your decision to continue playing what has become one of the weakest classes in GSIV.

You made a conscious choice using inferior training selections in GSIII. Therefore, you have zero experience with what a rogue's true potential was. From your perspective - your rogue went from barely viable in GSIII to mediocre in GSIV - so for you - rogues have "improved."

Just because you did not take advantage of the mechanics that were available at the time doesn't mean they didn't exist. Just because the game has been altered to allow almost any race / class / stat / training combination to make it to level 100 - and continue to gain more skills while hunting the same things over and over again - doesn't mean rogues are better. If anything, needing 20 million exp. to begin to approach the level of effectiveness that was possible with 5 million exp. in PvE situations should be a clear indication of the exact opposite.

As for 1x dodge pre-cap? 2x dodging is WAY more valuable than 2x PF. 2x PF is not THAT valuable. 2x dodge should be the standard for a pre-cap rogue.

My rogue was 2x in PF and 2x dodge pre-cap in GSIV, but if I had to choose one - I'd choose the PF hands down:

Scintillion (at level 81)
Physical Fitness...................| 266 166
Dodging............................| 266 166

Realk

11-03-2019, 07:53 PM

I think I much preferred the gs rogue from 2 months ago, who pretended not to know anything, and we assumed was trolling. The one now apparently knows it all and is for sure just a troll.

Mobius1

11-04-2019, 10:49 AM

When was 319 changed?

4/28/2015 Is when Estild posted about the change.

I don't want to stun things for a very long time. I want to kill them in one shot. See my points about shadow mastery and vanish in my previous post.

I could go on and on, but I've really said enough about why rogues are better off now. In fact, if you were to ask me the two best changes a rogue ever received, it would be 1)All weapons being made viable after the crit changes, and small weapons having reduced RT, and 2)Shadow Mastery. Shadow Mastery (coupled with stance pushdown) sped up my combat more than anything else ever has - I can sneak around the hunting ground, and immediately strike my target and kill it. No need to sweep them first, or ewave them, or kneebash them, or wait for them to attack me first - I just bloody smash their brains in instantly.

Combat was slower for a GS3 rogue.

Was the crit randomization change a nerf? Absolutely. But we got stance pushdown instead, which made up for it.

EBP got you down? Go TWC or UAC. Though using a shield also has much better perks now too, thanks to ensorcell and shield maneuvers.

There is no basis for comparison, so it's irrelevant. The Scatter didn't exist and was designed with a different system in mind. I will reiterate what I stated earlier. In terms of combat, I'd take an almost guaranteed chance for success over variety. The specific application of this is also irrelevant. The point is, the relative PvE abilities of rogues - game for game - has gone from one of the best, to one of the worst. The primary reason for this is crit randomization. The rest is just conversation.

I highly doubt they designed the Scatter with rogue abilities in mind.

Also, the reason rogues got worse, relative to other classes, is not because they themselves got worse - It's just that the rest of the game changed around them, to make them worse. Other classes got better, and hunting grounds changed in ways that made their skill set inferior. They also have barely gotten any dev compared to a lot of other classes.

What I'm really trying to say, is that your fixation on GS3 rogues is more nostalgia than reality. Rogues ARE better than they were in GS3. It's just that the world around us has had almost 2 decades worth of change and improvement, and us players ourselves have figured out the game more than ever before.

Instead of just comparing us to how we were, I think it's more important to focus on what needs to be done, moving forward. Getting rid of crit randomization would do jack squat to help us now, since we already manage to get rank 9 > 5 crits with the current system. What we need is something much more than that.

You made a conscious choice using inferior training selections in GSIII. Therefore, you have zero experience with what a rogue's true potential was. From your perspective - your rogue went from barely viable in GSIII to mediocre in GSIV - so for you - rogues have "improved."

Actually, I played 2 rogues in GS3. I was quite intimately familiar with the old ambushing system. Especially the part where you had to prone them first, or let them get a swing on you, to kill them. You also couldn't sneak around unless you wanted to take forever to hunt, due to not having smastery sneak RT. Hunting was slower in GS3 for a rogue.

My rogue was 2x in PF and 2x dodge pre-cap in GSIV, but if I had to choose one - I'd choose the PF hands down:

Why?

GSIV Rogue

11-04-2019, 12:40 PM

I could go on and on

Same.

Was the crit randomization change a nerf? Absolutely.

We agree!

Rogues ARE better than they were in GS3.

It's hard to deny that a +115 end roll guaranteeing a death crit was the glory days of rogues.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/ff5363c31d6d4ec52c95f9a8a0f79fa7/tenor.gif?itemid=4572649

Why?

https://gswiki.play.net/Physical_Fitness > https://gswiki.play.net/Dodging for a rogue in GSIV

- Physical Fitness is the primary skill for SMR v1 and equal with Dodging for SMR v2
- Physical Fitness is the primary skill for redux
- Physical Fitness provides stamina / stamina regeneration

- Dodging has no effect on SMR v1 and is equal to Physical Fitness for SMR v2
- Dodging is a secondary skill for redux
- Dodging provides raw DS and a chance to avoid an EBP attack (maximum benefit from dodge - 15% at 3x)

If forced to choose one - it's a no brainer in the current game environment to take more redux, stamina, and better SMR v1 defense for a square (regardless of level) over raw DS and a chance to avoid an EBP attack.

Mobius1

11-04-2019, 01:33 PM

You played an 81 rogue for like 2 seconds in GS4, and suddenly you are an expert.

Hell, I remember when GS4 first came out, and rogues were literally training THW because they were so doom and gloom about the new ambush system. Until people finally figured out how to make it work, and also new cmans were released that helped out some too (shadow mastery being the big one.).

A dagger in GS4, except against plate, is better than an ambushing rogue in GS3 with a fal or handaxe. You swung 20% slower and hid 33% slower, and couldn't sneak at 1 second or vanish at 0 sec RT. If trained well, you are going to kill most of the time on the first hit, with a dagger. You can even kill 2 critters in 1 attack with dervish. Even if you kill things in plate, and have to use a 1 second slower weapon, you are still going to hunt faster than you did in GS3.

You can keep quoting my glory days comment, but that doesn't change what I am saying. Absolutely rogues had it better then COMPARED to many other classes. Rogues are not the worst class right now because they are worse than they were then - They are the worst because other classes got better than them, and the world around them has changed.

https://gswiki.play.net/Physical_Fitness > https://gswiki.play.net/Dodging for a rogue in GSIV

The wiki says that action penalty affects SMR2, as well. It says that Perception gives +maneuver avoidance - But this thread showed the reality of that, didn't it? Does the wiki tell you exactly how much redux PF gives you?

Let's use your 81 rogue as an example, shall we? Let's compare 1x dodge vs 2x, in MBP no less (assuming 80 ranks and thus armoed evasion 2). That would give you +55 DS in offensive stance from those 82 extra dodge ranks.

I'll be fairly conservative, and assume 2x CM, 2x ambush, 2x weapon, 80 armor ranks, 1x TWC (or shield). At 1x PF but 2x dodge, you'll be getting 3929 redux points. With 2x PF and 1x dodge, you'll be getting 4421 total. That's a difference of 12% between the two. Because of the way that redux soft cap works, though, that's much less than 12% difference, especially at level 81 (Hell, it might not even equate to a 1 or 2% difference.).

Say you are getting attacked by a falchion. The loss of that 55 dodge DS equates to 9 extra raw damage against you. You'd need something crazy, like a 500 end roll against you, for your extra 12% redux to do the same for you as that +55 DS.

Now, obviously PF does more than just give you redux - I am just assuming that's the main reason you value it so much. You'd also get 27 extra stamina from the PF.

But what is more worthwhile to people? A small amount of extra redux and 27 more stamina, or 55!!!! extra DS? I think the latter is better by a rather massive margin.

GSIV Rogue

11-04-2019, 01:54 PM

suddenly you are an expert.

Some people get it, some people don't.

https://media.giphy.com/media/RJVQyJGvuwuqY/giphy.gif

Let's use your 81 rogue as an example

Not a good example - he was both 2x PT and 2x dodge.

Now, obviously PF does more than just give you redux - I am just assuming that's the main reason you value it so much. You'd also get 27 extra stamina from the PF.

But what is more worthwhile to people? A small amount of extra redux and 27 more stamina, or 55!!!! extra DS? I think the latter is better by a rather massive margin.

Please see my last post. Reasons added for clarification.

Mobius1

11-04-2019, 02:06 PM

Please see my last post. Reasons added for clarification.

Do you know how much PF helps SMR? You can't recommend it for that, based on a guess. Especially after what I found out about how SMR2 works - SMR may very well work roughly the same.

Now, I have only done limited testing with SMR in the past, but in a test of only 100 iterations (1000 would be a more clear test, which I may decide to do some time. But probably not, since SMR is steadily going bye bye.), I found that plate vs robes made 7% difference. Again, that's not nearly enough testing to get a definitive number, but it was enough to show that the difference was minor (It could have easily been a 1% difference, or a 15% difference - but either way it's not THAT big.). We know by a comment from a GM, that 100 PF ranks = the same as going from full plate to robes, against SMR.

Lovely for them, they never told us how much AP actually matters. And if my testing has shown anything, it's that it does jack diddly squat.

But since SMR is getting phased out, it's mostly moot anyways. In SMR2, PF and Dodge are equal.

Saying that the values of the extra PF outweighs +55 DS, seems like a very clear losing argument to me. If you said going 2x PF before 3x dodging, I could stomach it more, but even then, that extra DS is probably more worthwhile.

I might have said otherwise before I learned what I did about SMR2, but now I just don't see much value in PF.

GSIV Rogue

11-04-2019, 02:36 PM

Do you know how much PF helps SMR?

I know it is the primary skill in SMR v1 defense and most creatures still currently use SMR v1. This also wasn't my only reason for recommending it.

https://gswiki.play.net/Standard_maneuver_roll

"SMR v1
The original SMR system is currently used by the vast majority of creature attacks."

SMR may very well work roughly the same.

That's an assumption.

But since SMR is getting phased out, it's mostly moot anyways. In SMR2, PF and Dodge are equal.

I'm basing my statement on the current game. Subject to change as the game changes.

Saying that the values of the extra PF outweighs +55 DS, seems like a very clear losing argument to me.

That's your perspective and you're entitled to your opinion.

I might have said otherwise before I learned what I did about SMR2, but now I just don't see much value in PF.

Let's assume for arguments sake that they both weigh equally in all MR based defense - which we know isn't the case. I'd still choose more redux and stamina over DS and possibility to avoid EBP - especially for a rogue.

Mobius1

11-04-2019, 02:57 PM

I guess the wiki > testing results?

You are literally quoting the wiki to someone who has done more testing of the system than few others in the game. You think I don't know what the SMR wiki says inside and out x 1000? lol

"SMR v1
The original SMR system is currently used by the vast majority of creature attacks."

You realize this was written back when there was only like 10 SMR2 skills in the game, and Konacon has since converted a ton of them, and is continuing to release more and more conversions?

Oh, and let's just forget the part I posted about my SMR testing!

Let's assume for arguments sake that they both weigh equally in all MR based defense - which we know isn't the case. I'd still choose more redux and stamina over DS.

More DS = redux! If you get hit for less damage due to having more DS, it is effectively the same as having higher redux. It's like how learning 430 makes up for any loss to redux from the spell penalty, because the extra DS means you take less damage.

I clearly pointed out how the extra redux from PF would be very insignificant compared to 55 DS, especially with the redux soft cap.

I seriously want to know how you can reason that a very tiny increase in redux, and a 27 increase in stamina, can in any way compare to the massive impact that -55 DS would have on you. Unless you're going up against 500+ end rolls all the time (In which case no amount of redux will save you, anyways! And is a scenario you'd never see outside of PvP.).

And for someone that values cmans so little, I can't see you affording +27 stamina much value.

Murrandii

11-04-2019, 03:05 PM

Mobius1

11-04-2019, 03:10 PM

Any sane post cap rogues not having/not working to have at BARE minimum 430 and 120 deserves to be round kicked behind the head.

The benefits from the spells is INCREDIBLY better than the few % of redux you lose.

I'd go 471/130 personnally (or 476/125 if you can't cast in armor cause you're mbp+ and only buff yourself).

Well, even better is what I plan to do :D - 100 MnE ranks. Forget 120 - I have unlimited access to 120 rods!

But yes, spells are a worthwhile post cap goal, for sure. Especially in the Rift (Or confluence if you are crazy enough to hunt there as a rogue.). I learned MnE for 425 and 430 alone, and could literally care less about all the other spells.

Even at 100 spell ranks, you will see a minimal impact to your redux, yet will see a massive boost to your DS/TD/AS. The DS more than makes up for any loss of redux.

Now, as to whether or not you should sacrifice heavy armor in order to be able to 410/435 and/or 117 - That is a subject that is hotly debated. I sit on the heavy armor side, myself.

GSIV Rogue

11-04-2019, 05:43 PM

I seriously want to know how you can reason that a very tiny increase in redux, and a 27 increase in stamina, can in any way compare to the massive impact that -55 DS would have on you.
And for someone that values cmans so little, I can't see you affording +27 stamina much value.

Better PF also increases stamina regeneration rate. More base stamina / better stamina regeneration rate = more cmans that are going to save your life vs. extra DS.

Nowhere did I say I valued cmans so little - I just don't think that they are as great as you make them out to be. I absolutely agree that cmans are vital to a rogue in GSIV - even if they aren't that super. I did say that a rogue's previous ability to one shot everything > all cmans. With that said - even with 2x PF - it is difficult / impossible to keep smastery running nonstop during a hunt + have stamina needed to vanish every time you miss a one shot kill / need to get out of danger. In reality, it's a moot point because it's easy to 2x both PF and dodge for a rogue starting at level 0.

Cmans are the band-aid applied to rogues to make them survivable due to their main form of attack being nerfed. Everything else rogues have been "given" are pretty much consolation prizes for being among the biggest losers in GSIV mechanically. Most everyone (including myself) would agree that smastery and vanish are the most valuable cmans to a rogue for survivability. Aside from failing SMR v2 due to massive open-ended rolls - most deaths are going to be due to getting caught in the open and failing TD checks. Anyone with a good handle on Gemstone mechanics could figure that out without ever playing a rogue.

The extra DS would help in situations where you:

-Get caught in the open - failed TD check / locked into massive RT / stunned / prone / in offensive stance, etc. But in those cases, more redux would help as well.
-Get hit with a bolt spell or flaring weapon

These situations are avoided by:
- One shot kills
- Vanish after failing to one shot kill (more stamina = more vanish)

Basically:

one shot kill > cmans for defense > redux / higher DS

More DS = redux! If you get hit for less damage due to having more DS, it is effectively the same as having higher redux.

Not getting hit in the first place (one shot kill / vanish) > redux / higher DS

Mobius1

11-04-2019, 06:12 PM

Better PF also increases stamina regeneration rate. More base stamina / better stamina regeneration rate = more cmans that are going to save your life vs. extra DS.

Lol, keep scouring that wiki for more stupid reasons that I already factored, to not admit you are wrong about PF.

It's about 5 extra stamina per pulse. I didn't even think it worth mentioning, honestly. Just like I haven't bothered mentioning the extra evade chance from having more dodge, or the extra Ranged/Bolt DS afforded by it. It's too insignificant for me to bother using for my argument, since 55 DS is bloody 'nuff said.

Nowhere did I say I valued cmans so little - I just don't think that they are as great as you make them out to be. I absolutely agree that cmans are vital to a rogue in GSIV - even if they aren't that super. I did say that a rogue's previous ability to one shot everything > all cmans. With that said - even with 2x PT - it is difficult / impossible to keep smastery running nonstop during a hunt + have stamina needed to vanish every time you miss a one shot kill / need to get out of danger. In reality, it's a moot point because it's easy to 2x both PF and dodge for a rogue starting at level 0.

Cmans are the band-aid applied to rogues to make them survivable due to their main form of attack being nerfed. Most everyone (including myself) would agree that smastery and vanish are the most valuable cmans to a rogue for survivability. Aside from failing SMR v2 due to massive open-ended rolls - most deaths are going to be due to getting caught in the open and failing TD checks. Anyone with a good handle on Gemstone mechanics could figure that out without ever playing a rogue.

The extra DS would help in situations where you are:

-Caught in the open, failed TD check, locked into massive RT / stunned / prone / in offensive stance, etc. But in those cases, more redux would help as well.
-Get hit with a bolt spell or flaring weapon

These situations are avoided by:
- One shot kills
- Vanish after failing to one shot kill (more stamina = more vanish)

Basically:

one shot kill > cmans for defense > redux > more DS

Not getting hit in the first place (one shot kill / vanish) > redux / higher DS

Your whole opinion stands on the fact that we killed things reliably on the first hit in GS3. I already stated how TWC, Predator's Eye, and people getting rank 5 crits guaranteed in the current system, ends up with the same result. Except now you do it faster.

Also, even without TWC, at 2x PF I have always had enough stamina to vanish on all my EBPed attacks. It's not like it happens THAT often. And with TWC it's pretty rare. And of course UAC is an option, which can't be EBPed, and punch chance can be Predator Eyed to 90% chance to hit the head - Still not as good as TWC with dervish, IMO, but it's a popular form of combat among rogues (and what I personally use these days.).

But you know what kills you as a rogue? It's not any of the crap you are saying. What is dangerous for a rogue is when there is more than one critter. But at least when I can sneak around everywhere and choose my engagements, I am not exposed to attacks NEARLY as much as I was in GS3. If I was a GS3 rogue walking into a room with a swarm, I better damn well have ewave, they better not be immune to it, and I better get it off before they get an attack round in. Or I better be fast enough to move to the next room before they get a hit in. Both of those cases were probably my leading cause of death in GS3, and is essentially a thing of the past for me now. But as a whirling dervish rogue, you could kill 2 of them, vanish, and kill two more of them - Not bad compared to GS3 days, if you ask me.

Speaking of that, we even have divert, which is perfect for someone who has issues surviving.

Honestly, if there is only one critter, his ass is dead (assuming it's crittable), GS4 rogue or GS3. If only there was no such thing as swarms, or non-corp, or ambushing critters, screeching griffins, etc etc..

And best of all? Your GS4 rogue can actually be a ROGUE, and not be forced to wield a damn falchion/shield like the old days. Good riddance to that!

GSIV Rogue

11-04-2019, 07:10 PM

to not admit you are wrong about PF.

If I was wrong I'd be happy to admit it. :shrug:

It's about 5 extra stamina per pulse.

Pretty significant considering that rogues are the slowest hunters in GSIV. ;)

I didn't even think it worth mentioning, honestly. Just like I haven't bothered mentioning the extra evade chance from having more dodge, or the extra Ranged/Bolt DS afforded by it.

You just mentioned them. If you go back and re-read my posts, you'll see I did as well. ;)

It's too insignificant for me to bother using for my argument, since 55 DS is bloody 'nuff said.

More redux + better SMR v1 maneuver defense + 27 stamina + 5 stamina per pulse > 55 DS + 5% extra chance to avoid EBP (assuming 1x vs 2x dodge) + extra Ranged / Bolt DS - all day long.

Predator's Eye, and people getting rank 5 crits guaranteed in the current system, ends up with the same result.

100% wrong. You are contradicting yourself again.

Was the crit randomization change a nerf? Absolutely.

Also, even without TWC, at 2x PF I have always had enough stamina to vanish on all my EBPed attacks. It's not like it happens THAT often. And with TWC it's pretty rare. And of course UAC is an option, which can't be EBPed, and punch chance can be Predator Eyed to 90% chance to hit the head - Still not as good as TWC with dervish, IMO, but it's a popular form of combat among rogues (and what I personally use these days.).

The problem is they don't really have much that makes them stand out. Every aspect of their hunting ability, can be done better by another class.

even so, I won't deny the advantage we have with maneuvers.

is it pretty much widely accepted that we are the worst class? Yes.

I do just bloody fine with my rogue.

Like rogues, they have no real strengths

Another thing that I tested, is Deflection Mastery, which interestingly is a static boost, and not reduced by the diminishing returns

It's hard to deny that a +115 end roll guaranteeing a death crit was the glory days of rogues.

We also have ensorcell now, which helps us shore up one of our largest weaknesses (TD.)

Fine, then give me the same TD bonus a semi gets minus 7. And add open rolls to warding rolls while you're at it.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more GS3 sucked compared to now.

Give any other class that much XP, and rogues will still be at the bottom tier.

Good riddance to that!

I am actually furious.

there were no Shimmer Trinkets

https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7TKy3KWDYOA7OUSI/giphy.gif

But at least when I can sneak around everywhere and choose my engagements, I am not exposed to attacks NEARLY as much as I was in GS3. If I was a GS3 rogue walking into a room with a swarm, I better damn well have ewave, they better not be immune to it, and I better get it off before they get an attack round in. Or I better be fast enough to move to the next room before they get a hit in. Both of those cases were probably my leading cause of death in GS3, and is essentially a thing of the past for me now.

Not bad compared to GS3 days, if you ask me.

You could use sneak / peer in GSIII. Again, don't use the fact that you made a choice not to utilize mechanics effectively to say that rogues weren't superb hunters in GSIII.

Mobius1

11-04-2019, 07:49 PM

If I was wrong I'd be happy to admit it. :shrug:

Yeeeaaah, and I'm sure everyone here believes that, too.

Pretty significant considering that rogues are the slowest hunters in GSIV. ;)

Yet still faster than they were in GS3. Crazy, right?

You just mentioned them. If you go back and re-read my posts, you'll see I did as well. ;)

Yeah, you mentioned the evade thing, as if for some silly reason it was the main benefit of going 2x dodge.

More redux + better SMR v1 maneuver defense + 27 stamina + 5 stamina per pulse > 55 DS + 5% extra chance to avoid EBP (assuming 1x vs 2x dodge) + extra Ranged / Bolt DS - all day long.

Please tell me where those 500+ end rolls are coming from. Also, what SMR attacks are killing you? By all means, name some. Conversely, every critter uses AS attacks.

100% wrong. You are contradicting yourself again.

Not really sure what point you are trying to make with that long string of quotes.

Let me ask you this. Have you leveled in GS4 using a TWC whirling dervish rogue with good weapons, for any extended duration of time? Have you run bounties with it, and tried it over a span of different levels and different hunting grounds? Have you tried multiple builds with multiple cman strategies?

If I remember correctly, you said that you don't even do bounties. That alone shows how little you understand about GS4, and are still unable to bloody move on and play the current game.

I was a TWC ambusher in GS4 for a span of many levels, and for about 15 years. I was also a fal/shield ambusher in GS3 for about 7 or 8 years. I have tested pretty much every viable rogue build over those years, and have always been a huge min/maxer the entire time.

I am telling you that GS4 rogues are faster than GS3 rogues ever were. You can argue with me all you want, but you are basing the vast majority of your arguments off of reading the wiki, whereas I am telling you as someone that has played both GS3 and GS4 as a rogue for years.

You could use sneak / peer in GSIII. Again, don't use the fact that you made a choice not to utilize mechanics effectively to say that rogues weren't superb hunters in GSIII.

So you snuck around everywhere in GS3? That would sure make hunting even slower than it is now!

I think part of your biggest problem, is you really are stuck back in GS3, and are unable to move on. At least as a rogue, at any rate. Things like your old 668 roll? Move on to GS4, man, where your end outcome of stats is BETTER than they were even with a roll like that, even though we only start at 640 now (By the way, Midgar's roll was 668. It wasn't THAT special.).

Advguild + Lumnis > old symbol of sleep.

GS3 really was crap compared to what we have now. The only thing that was better was the population count - the rest is just bloody nostalgia talking.

GSIV Rogue

11-05-2019, 12:42 AM

Yeeeaaah, and I'm sure everyone here believes that, too.

:shrug:

Yet still faster than they were in GS3. Crazy, right?

The times where combat is faster doesn't make up for the times it is way slower and a lot more dangerous (missing location, no instant crit, EBP, etc.). This presents other problems like being caught in the open. A rogue's greatest strength was always the ability to kill reliably and remain relatively safe.

Yeah, you mentioned the evade thing, as if for some silly reason it was the main benefit of going 2x dodge.

- Physical Fitness is the primary skill for SMR v1 and equal with Dodging for SMR v2
- Physical Fitness is the primary skill for redux
- Physical Fitness provides stamina / stamina regeneration

- Dodging has no effect on SMR v1 and is equal to Physical Fitness for SMR v2
- Dodging is a secondary skill for redux
- Dodging provides raw DS and a chance to avoid an EBP attack (maximum benefit from dodge - 15% at 3x)

Please tell me where those 500+ end rolls are coming from. Also, what SMR attacks are killing you? By all means, name some. Conversely, every critter uses AS attacks.

Better PF also increases stamina regeneration rate. More base stamina / better stamina regeneration rate = more cmans that are going to save your life vs. extra DS.

The extra DS would help in situations where you:

-Get caught in the open - failed TD check / locked into massive RT / stunned / prone / in offensive stance, etc. But in those cases, more redux would help as well.
-Get hit with a bolt spell or flaring weapon

These situations are avoided by:
- One shot kills
- Vanish after failing to one shot kill (more stamina = more vanish)

Basically:

one shot kill > cmans for defense > redux / higher DS

Not getting hit in the first place (one shot kill / vanish) > redux / higher DS

Not really sure what point you are trying to make with that long string of quotes.

You are contradicting yourself

Let me ask you this. Have you leveled in GS4 using a TWC whirling dervish rogue with good weapons, for any extended duration of time? Have you run bounties with it, and tried it over a span of different levels and different hunting grounds? Have you tried multiple builds with multiple cman strategies?

I was a TWC ambusher in GS4 for a span of many levels, and for about 15 years. I was also a fal/shield ambusher in GS3 for about 7 or 8 years. I have tested pretty much every viable rogue build over those years, and have always been a huge min/maxer the entire time.

Some people get it, some people don't.

https://media.giphy.com/media/RJVQyJGvuwuqY/giphy.gif

If I remember correctly, you said that you don't even do bounties. That alone shows how little you understand about GS4, and are still unable to bloody move on and play the current game.

I think part of your biggest problem, is you really are stuck back in GS3, and are unable to move on. At least as a rogue, at any rate.

I don't need to play a gimped character for 10+ years at the same level to figure out that it is never going to be as good as a character from a more powerful class with the same experience. It'd be disappointing and frustrating. I would rather cut my losses and start over - which is what I did.

So you snuck around everywhere in GS3? That would sure make hunting even slower than it is now!

The times where combat is faster doesn't make up for the times it is way slower and a lot more dangerous (missing location, no instant crit, EBP, etc.). This presents other problems like being caught in the open. A rogue's greatest strength was always the ability to kill reliably and remain relatively safe.

Advguild + Lumnis > old symbol of sleep.

GS3 really was crap compared to what we have now. The only thing that was better was the population count - the rest is just bloody nostalgia talking.

https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7TKy3KWDYOA7OUSI/giphy.gif

drumpel

11-07-2019, 05:10 PM

My only critique is on the perception of SMRv2... SMRv2 is a new framework that establishes a set of skills that are used for offensive and defensive rolls. Any single SMR2 attack can have it's own weighting on how it calculates out the attack side, and can have it's own weighting on the defense side. For example, Spell ranks can add 1 to the attack roll for 917 while only adding .94 to the attack roll for 309. Similarly, perception may have a minimal impact 917 defense, but under the SMRv2 framework, it could be the most important defense for a Roa'ter Burrow (this is just an example). The reason SMRv2 was considered revolutionary is that it centralized a rolling schema that could be centrally applied to multiple custom defined functions. So no longer were devs coding their own creature maneuvers in some obscure line of spaghetti, but now they can simply call the SMRv2 function with a few variables to run the same command in a more systemically streamlined approach. It also gave a defined list of things that were part of the SMRv2 defense calculations, so that we players understood things we could train in that could impact defenses. As more things transition to SMRv2, we may see more volatility in the weighting/calculation approach, but we won't see the same radical differentiation that we saw with legacy creature maneuvers.

GSwiki says that perception/CM/Dodge/PF are all weighted the same. If GMs are indeed weighting one of these 4 skills over the other in SMRv2 maneuvers, they can suck a fat one.

Based on all the testing I've done for SMRv2 (with 917), it feels like the most important factor in play is the level of the caster vs target. Everything else just adds small bonuses (skills/spells/stance/stats) or small negatives (wounds/HP loss/status [prone and/or stunned]/encumbrance/armor worn) and I'm sure there could be other small factors mixed in that I'm not aware of or have forgotten at the moment.

Here's what I do know about how 917 functions with SMRv2.

I did some basic testing of the impact of health loss and wounds.
Note: I do not know if bonus is defined by % of missing health or a set number
Target has 130 total health (no enhancives used, just his base health)
Missing 3 health (2.2% of total health), 1 Bonus Point
Missing 8 health (6% of total health), 1 Bonus Point
Missing 9 health (6.8% of total health), 1 Bonus Point
Missing 19 health (14.3% of total health), 3 Bonus Points
Missing 34 health (25.6% of total health), 6 Bonus Points
Missing 20 health (15% of total health), 3 Bonus Points

Wound location |Rank |Bonus
Leg |3 |22
Leg |2 |11
Arm |3 |5
Hand |1 |0
Both hands |1 |0
Chest |1 |0
Neck |3 |5

I'm sure someone could figure it all out with proper set of folks on the test server, but I lack an empath for taking wounds or filling blood back to help speed the testing along.

Prone status = -20 (+20 to caster's bonus)
Stun status = -35 (+35 to caster's bonus)
Encumberance = every 1% you add over your max carrying weight before you become encumbered impacts your negative bonus and appears to cap at 15% encumbered to where you hit your max penalty
Max penalty = ??? I'm not sure where they get this number from - race and stats is my best guess but that's just a guess. I do know that you cannot exceed your max penalty.
Armors and Armor Use ranks = I get wildly varying info from different levels, races/stats when it comes to trying to figure out how armors plays a role in SMRv2 defense with 917. I kind of left things there with all my testing and I haven't looked into much since the start of the year.