Unionization movement amongst gaming employees

[Archigeek]

Thought this was an interesting article about gaming employee stress and working conditions. A bit over-hyped, but some interesting info in there. Good luck to all the contract employees!

https://time.com/5603329/e3-video-game-creators-union/

[Gelston]

Seems a little sensationalized. There are shitty companies to work for in every industry, and just about everyone has a "crunch time". For gaming companies it is near and during release of a new game. For accountants it is the end of the fiscal year. I think a lot of this is people not looking at the reality of the industry before they jump in. Easy to do with something like the gaming industry, as the guy said... It was his "dream job".

[Taernath]

Seems a little sensationalized. There are shitty companies to work for in every industry, and just about everyone has a "crunch time". For gaming companies it is near and during release of a new game. For accountants it is the end of the fiscal year. I think a lot of this is people not looking at the reality of the industry before they jump in. Easy to do with something like the gaming industry, as the guy said... It was his "dream job".

It's not just about "crunch time", it's also about working conditions and job security.

[Archigeek]

Seems a little sensationalized. There are shitty companies to work for in every industry, and just about everyone has a "crunch time". For gaming companies it is near and during release of a new game. For accountants it is the end of the fiscal year. I think a lot of this is people not looking at the reality of the industry before they jump in. Easy to do with something like the gaming industry, as the guy said... It was his "dream job".

Agreed for the most part, and they didn't even mention the workers paid the least: contractors. I won't be too shocked when a contract worker files a FLSA lawsuit, claiming they should have been considered employees.

[Stumplicker]

Microsoft is a pretty good example of how odd and shitty the gaming market can be. Everybody wants the chance to work for them because they pay well and because obviously, but they hire out of Digipen across the street, so they have a neverending supply of qualified applicants. They'll typically open and close studios and projects on a whim when one executive or another takes over and wants to divert resources elsewhere. It's not even a black mark on your resume to write "fired by Microsoft" because of how often it happens. I've got a friend who's been a UI artist for 3 different Microsoft Studios over the past 5 years because he's gotten hired on, done a job (big, name brand jobs you'd recognize, not stuff that just got cancelled pre-completion), then the studio is closed and hiring starts anew for another project. No seniority, no job security, fighting against day one graduates for every position.

Unions aren't always a terrible thing. There's a balance to be had, and it's all in favor of the executives in gaming.

[Astray]

This isnt really 'new' news. Unionization won't solve this problem.

[mgoddess]

Microsoft is a pretty good example of how odd and shitty the software developement market can be.
Fixed.


Digipen across the street
Ahhhh, Digipen. They aren't quite "across" the street anymore, and they've expanded into so much more than "just" R.T.I.S. degrees.


But, yeah... as someone who has seen second-hand the burn-out that game developers (and software developers in general) can suffer, this article isn't as sensationalized as some might think. The game dev world is brutal, and unionization could very well make it better... and give those trying to get into that world a better idea of just what they're selling their souls for.

[Gelston]

It's not just about "crunch time", it's also about working conditions and job security.

Again, this is something someone should look at before joining a company. A lot of games studios do this. They hire on a larger staff when creating a game and cut back after release. Sometimes they have other places to assign people, sometimes they don't. This is the nature of the industry.

[Taernath]

Again, this is something someone should look at before joining a company. A lot of games studios do this. They hire on a larger staff when creating a game and cut back after release. Sometimes they have other places to assign people, sometimes they don't. This is the nature of the industry.

... and it's a problem with that industry. Companies aren't expected to keep people on the payroll indefinitely even in a unionized environment. Unions step in, put laid off workers on the books, and find them some place to go. It's not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than just being shown the door.

[Methais]

Thought this was an interesting article about gaming employee stress and working conditions. A bit over-hyped, but some interesting info in there. Good luck to all the contract employees!

https://time.com/5603329/e3-video-game-creators-union/

They should do a piece about working for Simu.

[Stumplicker]

Fixed.

Yeah I shoulda just said software development from the get-go. Not even my friend at Microsoft was always on a game on his projects. One of them was UI for Xbox One's streaming apps, which I guess is kind of gaming but not really.



Ahhhh, Digipen. They aren't quite "across" the street anymore, and they've expanded into so much more than "just" R.T.I.S. degrees.

You sound like you're from the area. My knowledge is a lot outdated for them. They weren't even accredited yet when a couple of my friends were going there. But yeah..they're like...right just there by the Microsoft Campus. Anyways, yeah, in this case, unions good. Software development in general could use some. I had another friend who moved with his company to Indianapolis, and they shut the doors within a month of convincing like 80 people to move across the country with them. A union wouldn't necessarily have helped that situation, but man, that sucked, so I figured I'd share it.

[Gelston]

... and it's a problem with that industry. Companies aren't expected to keep people on the payroll indefinitely even in a unionized environment. Unions step in, put laid off workers on the books, and find them some place to go. It's not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than just being shown the door.

Nah... I think most of the big companies would just move their dev out of country. Brand new people get dropped. Sucks, but it builds their resume. Get a few years in the industry and you get to be one of the guys that stays. Problem with the first guy's example though, a Union wouldn't have stopped any of that... Because the entire company folded. He also only had 2 years experience.

You do a project, you do well, you get a new job after it is over, but your resume looks a little better.

[Parkbandit]

... and it's a problem with that industry. Companies aren't expected to keep people on the payroll indefinitely even in a unionized environment. Unions step in, put laid off workers on the books, and find them some place to go. It's not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than just being shown the door.

I've never held a job in 40 years that had "job security". It's the nature of asking someone else to hire you. Things change.

You want job security? Be your own boss and start your own business. That's the only way you should be granted job security.

[Archigeek]

I've never held a job in 40 years that had "job security". It's the nature of asking someone else to hire you. Things change.

You want job security? Be your own boss and start your own business. That's the only way you should be granted job security.

I'd say it's relative. I'm in a very cyclical industry, and it's not hard to get laid off, but right now, I can see down the pipeline, and reasonably predict that I've got work to do for at least the next 2 years. That's the high end of job security in my business.

I think the example given in the article is appropriate to the issue of creative work that's driven by very large projects: the Screen Actor's Guild.

[Parkbandit]

I'd say it's relative. I'm in a very cyclical industry, and it's not hard to get laid off, but right now, I can see down the pipeline, and reasonably predict that I've got work to do for at least the next 2 years. That's the high end of job security in my business.

I think the example given in the article is appropriate to the issue of creative work that's driven by very large projects: the Screen Actor's Guild.

I don't believe gaming industry or any other industry should be forced to unionize.

The only real beneficiary of unions are shitty employees.

[Taernath]

Nah... I think most of the big companies would just move their dev out of country. Brand new people get dropped. Sucks, but it builds their resume. Get a few years in the industry and you get to be one of the guys that stays. Problem with the first guy's example though, a Union wouldn't have stopped any of that... Because the entire company folded. He also only had 2 years experience.

You do a project, you do well, you get a new job after it is over, but your resume looks a little better.

My understanding is there are a lot of issues with offsite/overseas dev, but I'm not in that industry so I can't say for certain. As far as the things he was complaining about (health issues, layoffs, scheduling), those are literally what unions would be fighting for.


I've never held a job in 40 years that had "job security". It's the nature of asking someone else to hire you. Things change.

You want job security? Be your own boss and start your own business. That's the only way you should be granted job security.

I take it tub installers never organized? I could salt for you.

[Methais]

My understanding is there are a lot of issues with offsite/overseas dev, but I'm not in that industry so I can't say for certain..

If you stand in front of a mirror and say "time4fun" 3 times, she'll show up with a PhD in game development and 10+ years experience specifically working with offsite/overseas dev and will fill you in.

[mgoddess]

You sound like you're from the area. My knowledge is a lot outdated for them. They weren't even accredited yet when a couple of my friends were going there. But yeah..they're like...right just there by the Microsoft Campus. Anyways, yeah, in this case, unions good. Software development in general could use some. I had another friend who moved with his company to Indianapolis, and they shut the doors within a month of convincing like 80 people to move across the country with them. A union wouldn't necessarily have helped that situation, but man, that sucked, so I figured I'd share it.

Lived in the area 2001-2005, when they were in the Nintendo space.... lived, again, in the area 2015-2018, they've got their own space now, 3x-at-least the space they used to, roughly 3 miles northwest of the old space. Slightly farther away from a 7-Eleven, but they've got their own cafeteria now, so I'm sure it's perfectly fine. ;)

[Archigeek]

I don't believe gaming industry or any other industry should be forced to unionize.

The only real beneficiary of unions are shitty employees.

I'm not suggesting one way or the other, just saying that SAG is a decent enough comparison. The industries have a lot in common.

[Gelston]

My understanding is there are a lot of issues with offsite/overseas dev, but I'm not in that industry so I can't say for certain. As far as the things he was complaining about (health issues, layoffs, scheduling), those are literally what unions would be fighting for.



I take it tub installers never organized? I could salt for you.

What issues? A lot of extremely popular and well done games are coming from overseas, tbh. Making our stuff look like shit. The Witcher franchise is a prime example. Hell, my favorite series, Total War, is made in Britain. They have a new shop, CA Sofia, that does the DLC for them. With many, if not most, sales occuring digitally now, I don't think there is a reason for dev to stay here if unionization is forced upon them.

[Stumplicker]

My understanding is there are a lot of issues with offsite/overseas dev, but I'm not in that industry so I can't say for certain. As far as the things he was complaining about (health issues, layoffs, scheduling), those are literally what unions would be fighting for.


Thoughtworks does pretty well with it, out of Dallas/Chicago. The main downside is that you're paying at least one in-country employee per project the price of 4-5 local coders to move across the country once every 6 months to a year depending on project length and keep India's hours to be awake at the same time to communicate with the team. You save some on the coding, and the quality is there, but the overhead is high because you do need at least one or two people on site at Director's salaries plus living expenses.

[Gelston]

Thoughtworks does pretty well with it, out of Dallas/Chicago. The main downside is that you're paying at least one in-country employee per project the price of 4-5 local coders to move across the country once every 6 months to a year depending on project length and keep India's hours to be awake at the same time to communicate with the team. You save some on the coding, and the quality is there, but the overhead is high because you do need at least one or two people on site at Director's salaries plus living expenses.

No, I think they'd move their entire dev department out of country. Not just a few guys out there. Open up an entire studio out there.

And by open up, I mean buy one that is already there.

[Stumplicker]

No, I think they'd move their entire dev department out of country. Not just a few guys out there. Open up an entire studio out there.

And by open up, I mean buy one that is already there.

One of the reasons Thoughtworks has offices in about six different countries, yes. And in each one they still outsource their work to India and work in the same way.

Workers wanting fair treatment and equal rights doesn't always result in companies saying fuck it and packing up shop then moving to other countries who also have laws. In fact, most of those other countries with a talent pool have stricter workplace laws and taxes than the US, so it's no picnic moving. I mean, Paradox is an EU development studio. They do well. In a socialist country with 50 some percent income tax. That probably doesn't seem very attractive a prospect to Microsoft just to avoid treating workers fairly.

One of the reasons silicon valley is so called is because that's where the primary talent pool exists. You want quality workers, you go where quality workers are. It's one of the many reasons Daikatana got all fucky. John Romero moved to Dallas before it was cool and ended up paying extra hiring people to move there to work for them.

[Gelston]

One of the reasons Thoughtworks has offices in about six different countries, yes. And in each one they still outsource their work to India and work in the same way.

Workers wanting fair treatment and equal rights doesn't always result in companies saying fuck it and packing up shop then moving to other countries who also have laws. In fact, most of those other countries with a talent pool have stricter workplace laws and taxes than the US, so it's no picnic moving. I mean, Paradox is an EU development studio. They do well. In a socialist country with 50 some percent income tax. That probably doesn't seem very attractive a prospect to Microsoft just to avoid treating workers fairly.

One of the reasons silicon valley is so called is because that's where the primary talent pool exists. You want quality workers, you go where quality workers are. It's one of the many reasons Daikatana got all fucky. John Romero moved to Dallas before it was cool and ended up paying extra hiring people to move there to work for them.

You're trying to act like workers in the US don't get fair treatment. I think they do. I think people are upset because they don't do their research on the way of the industry before the jump into it. They are "zomg! Dream job!" and just go straight into what can pretty much be considered seasonal employment. When you're new and at the bottom, you aren't going to have all the sweet, sweet benefits. You have to work your way up and earn it.

Moving from project to project and staying in they industry and not saying fuck it and leaving IS how you get quality workers. Attrition weeds out the people who shouldn't be around. These are the people who have shown they can do a good job. They have shown they can network. They have shown they aren't a complete fucking asshole and people enjoy having them around.

[Tgo01]

Unions step in, put laid off workers on the books, and find them some place to go. It's not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than just being shown the door.

Which unions are these? When I was laid off from my only union job the union did exactly jack shit for me. I'm sure they negotiated all of the benefits I received for being laid off and were responsible for us being given a 1 month notice, but when it came to the actual laying off part the union was no where to be found. They sure as heck didn't try to get me another job, my employer offered me a transfer but I wasn't in a position to move half way across the country at that time.

[Parkbandit]

I take it tub installers never organized? I could salt for you.

We did not.. but my gf wants to organize for her job at McDonalds... probably because she is a very shitty employee (but an amazing lover)

[Methais]

You're trying to act like workers in the US don't get fair treatment. I think they do. I think people are upset because they don't do their research on the way of the industry before the jump into it. They are "zomg! Dream job!" and just go straight into what can pretty much be considered seasonal employment. When you're new and at the bottom, you aren't going to have all the sweet, sweet benefits. You have to work your way up and earn it.

Moving from project to project and staying in they industry and not saying fuck it and leaving IS how you get quality workers. Attrition weeds out the people who shouldn't be around. These are the people who have shown they can do a good job. They have shown they can network. They have shown they aren't a complete fucking asshole and people enjoy having them around.

Plus everyone's a fragile pussy these days, so there's that too.

[Stumplicker]

You're trying to act like workers in the US don't get fair treatment. I think they do. I think people are upset because they don't do their research on the way of the industry before the jump into it. They are "zomg! Dream job!" and just go straight into what can pretty much be considered seasonal employment. When you're new and at the bottom, you aren't going to have all the sweet, sweet benefits. You have to work your way up and earn it.

Moving from project to project and staying in IS how you get quality workers. These are the people who have shown they can do a good job. They have shown they can network. They have shown they aren't a complete fucking asshole and people enjoy having them around.

No, I'm not acting like that. And yes, there is some of that going on, but there's always a balance that needs to be struck in any industry. Coming from New Jersey, I'm generally vehemently anti-union in most cases, since many of the unions there are far, far too powerful and the balance of power has tipped too far the other direction.

But unions exist for a reason, and there are a number of industries that would benefit from them in order for the individuals that work in an industry to be better off. Technology and its practices are all very employer-favored because like you said, it's what idealistic people think is a dream job. It doesn't need a lot of balancing, but it could use some. This becomes less necessary as the demand grows and the talent pool shrinks, but that's not the case here. Companies know that there's a local source of cheap labor available at any point so long as their practices allow them to recycle people like disposable batteries.

Yes, get rid of the bad ones and keep the good ones. That's the goal of any employer. But that's not the practice in the tech sector. One of the practices that needs balance is incorporating a company for a specific job, like a development studio whose parent company is Microsoft, finishing the job, then folding the company and firing everyone, just to re-hire them back for the next paper company at an entry level salary, because what are they gonna do? They're now unemployed and applying against recent college grads willing to work for peanuts. It's like Hollywood accounting, and nobody could accuse that of being the right way to do anything.

[Gelston]

No, I'm not acting like that. And yes, there is some of that going on, but there's always a balance that needs to be struck in any industry. Coming from New Jersey, I'm generally vehemently anti-union in most cases, since many of the unions there are far, far too powerful and the balance of power has tipped too far the other direction.

But unions exist for a reason, and there are a number of industries that would benefit from them in order for the individuals that work in an industry to be better off. Technology and its practices are all very employer-favored because like you said, it's what idealistic people think is a dream job. It doesn't need a lot of balancing, but it could use some. This becomes less necessary as the demand grows and the talent pool shrinks, but that's not the case here. Companies know that there's a local source of cheap labor available at any point so long as their practices allow them to recycle people like disposable batteries.

Yes, get rid of the bad ones and keep the good ones. That's the goal of any employer. But that's not the practice in the tech sector. One of the practices that needs balance is incorporating a company for a specific job, like a development studio whose parent company is Microsoft, finishing the job, then folding the company and firing everyone, just to re-hire them back for the next paper company at an entry level salary, because what are they gonna do? They're now unemployed and applying against recent college grads willing to work for peanuts. It's like Hollywood accounting, and nobody could accuse that of being the right way to do anything.

Unions "existed" for a reason. And they don't rehire back at entry level, and anyone that accepts that is stupid and needs to know their worth. You begin creating a resume, your body of work gets larger, you come on with more pay. Eventually you get into management and director positions. Also, you could research and not work for fucking microsoft?

ZOS is almost always hiring for their MMO. That is pretty damn stable.

[Stumplicker]

Unions "existed" for a reason. And they don't rehire back at entry level, and anyone that accepts that is stupid and needs to know their worth. You begin creating a resume, your body of work gets larger, you come on with more pay. Eventually you get into management and director positions. Also, you could research and not work for fucking microsoft?

Microsoft is far from the only tech company that takes advantage. I'm only using it as an example because it's the one I laid out before. If you'd like another one off the top of my head, Gearbox has worked similarly in the past, as has 2K Games (and boy have they especially), but it's harder, for example, for Bethesda to do the same. The talent pool in their area is smaller so you're more likely to lose employees to companies with better practices.

[Gelston]

Microsoft is far from the only tech company that takes advantage. I'm only using it as an example because it's the one I laid out before. If you'd like another one off the top of my head, Gearbox has worked similarly in the past, as has 2K Games (and boy have they especially), but it's harder, for example, for Bethesda to do the same. The talent pool in their area is smaller so you're more likely to lose employees to companies with better practices.

And again, for like the 4th time... It is on the person to research any company they are going to work for. If you can't be responsible enough to research an employeer then you deserve to be fucked over. Hopefully you learn from it and don't do the same thing again.

[Stumplicker]

And again, for like the 4th time... It is on the person to research any company they are going to work for. If you can't be responsible enough to research an employeer then you deserve to be fucked over. Hopefully you learn from it and don't do the same thing again.

And when it's an industry-wide practice, how exactly do you believe change gets enacted? Maybe a group of like-minded skilled workers, getting together for example, and saying "We're not going to play into these bad practices anymore unless you give us some sort of fair concessions.".

[Methais]

How would this affect the prices of games? Jump from $50-60 base cost to $100? $500 for super premium ultra edition?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

You begin creating a resume, your body of work gets larger, you come on with more pay. Eventually you get into management and director positions.

This. I'll put my resume, knowledge and experience up against any recent college grad. I also just stand around all day pissing excellence.

And PS, I'm over 40 and now considered a protected class. ADEA, take that. Booyah.

[Taernath]

Which unions are these? When I was laid off from my only union job the union did exactly jack shit for me. I'm sure they negotiated all of the benefits I received for being laid off and were responsible for us being given a 1 month notice, but when it came to the actual laying off part the union was no where to be found. They sure as heck didn't try to get me another job, my employer offered me a transfer but I wasn't in a position to move half way across the country at that time.

IBEW. The type of help you receive depends heavily on the collective bargaining agreement your union negotiates. Sometimes you're transferred between positions at the same place, but in my area it's a lot of relocating to a new job site, mostly within a couple days, sometimes longer. For tech industry stuff I'm sure it would work differently.

[Gelston]

And when it's an industry-wide practice, how exactly do you believe change gets enacted? Maybe a group of like-minded skilled workers, getting together for example, and saying "We're not going to play into these bad practices anymore unless you give us some sort of fair concessions.".

So like, people shouldn't fucking whine when it happens and act like it was unexpected then? They should know "Hey, when this game ends, we are going to need to find a new project, anyone got any leads?" "Yeah man, let me check with soandso that I worked with over here" or "Hey, check out this site, they are getting going soon". Now you have Game A in your resume, as you move on to Game B. You aren't brand fucking new anymore so you'll start above entry level. Then guess what, after that you can go to Game C, with even more pay. Keep going and then maybe people will start calling you. Maybe by Game F you can be at management tier, making even more. Perhaps by this time they'll see you are a solid worker and keep you in the company.

That is how the shit works. People just want all this shit handed to them I guess. Or maybe some of those people were just complete fucking assholes who didn't pull their weight and no one wants to hire them now?

[Stumplicker]

So like, people shouldn't fucking whine when it happens and act like it was unexpected then? They should know "Hey, when this game ends, we are going to need to find a new project, anyone got any leads?" "Yeah man, let me check with soandso that I worked with over here" or "Hey, check out this site, they are getting going soon". Now you have Game A in your resume, as you move on to Game B. You aren't brand fucking new anymore so you'll start above entry level. Then guess what, after that you can go to Game C, with even more pay. Keep going and then maybe people will start calling you. Maybe by Game F you can be at management tier, making even more. Perhaps by this time they'll see you are a solid worker and keep you in the company.

That is how the shit works. People just want all this shit handed to them I guess. Or maybe some of those people were just complete fucking assholes who didn't pull their weight and no one wants to hire them now?

No, that is not how shit works. That is how shit worked in the 1980s and 1990s in the tech sector. That is how shit should work, and does in the vast majority of industries. It doesn't in this one, so there's a discussion about it being balanced by unionizing. The late 90s saw most of the major development studios acquired by corporations with dollar signs in their eyes. At that point it stopped being a normal industry being run by industry professionals and started being an industry run by executives. Some of the horror stories that came out of that time period are ridiculous. Did you know Sierra ran the first MMO, and that it was critically and commercially successful? Did you know that when Sierra got acquired they decided to close a branch of Sierra studios? Also, that branch just happened to be the one that housed the server for their game?

[Taernath]

And again, for like the 4th time... It is on the person to research any company they are going to work for. If you can't be responsible enough to research an employeer then you deserve to be fucked over. Hopefully you learn from it and don't do the same thing again.

Industry: *does something bad*
Workers: "Maybe we should do something"
Status Quo Motherfuckers: "HEY THAT'S THE NATURE OF THE INDUSTRY MAN NOTHING YOU CAN DO"

[Gelston]

No, that is not how shit works. That is how shit worked in the 1980s and 1990s in the tech sector. That is how shit should work, and does in the vast majority of industries. It doesn't in this one, so there's a discussion about it being balanced by unionizing. The late 90s saw most of the major development studios acquired by corporations with dollar signs in their eyes. At that point it stopped being a normal industry being run by industry professionals and started being an industry run by executives. Some of the horror stories that came out of that time period are ridiculous. Did you know Sierra ran the first MMO, and that it was critically and commercially successful? Did you know that when Sierra got acquired they decided to close a branch of Sierra studios? Also, that branch just happened to be the one that housed the server for their game?

Show me where it doesn't work like this.


Industry: *does something bad*
Workers: "Maybe we should do something"
Status Quo Motherfuckers: "HEY THAT'S THE NATURE OF THE INDUSTRY MAN NOTHING YOU CAN DO"

I don't think the industry is doing anything bad though.

[Stumplicker]

Show me where it doesn't work like this.

The tech sector. As laid out in examples here. Or did you mean where it works like normal?

[Gelston]

The tech sector. As laid out in examples here. Or did you mean where it works like normal?

What examples? I just saw a dude that has been in the sector for 2 years at one job whining about the company laying him off and then folding.

[leifastagsweed]

Ahhhh, Digipen. They aren't quite "across" the street anymore...

I live here now and to be completely accurate the new Digipen complex is across the PARKING LOT from some of Microsoft's newest offices on Willows Rd. Facebook has moved into this complex, too. I was over there last week as a day tester for the new Facebook VR technology that's coming out shortly. Redmond is growing like a motherfucker.

[Tgo01]

Industry: *does something bad*
Workers: "Maybe we should do something"
Status Quo Motherfuckers: "HEY THAT'S THE NATURE OF THE INDUSTRY MAN NOTHING YOU CAN DO"

I see nothing wrong if these people want to try and unionize. I just hate how the media is acting like these are the most down trodden people on the entire planet. It's crazy the amount of "Oh woe is the game coder!" stuff I read in articles about this.

They want to unionize? Good for them. Let's not act like they are some sort of victims or something though. They aren't exactly down in a coal mine somewhere with no safety equipment making 50 cents an hour.

Case in point? Look at this shit from the article in the original post:


One developer for Mortal Kombat 11 recently told gaming site Kotaku that he was diagnosed with PTSD after working on the extravagantly violent and gory fighting game.

Really? PTSD because he was working on a violent and gory game?


Like the software industry more broadly, the gaming world is known for “crunch,” the period just before a launch when workers are expected to put in 100-hour weeks with no extra pay. In decades past, especially for console games, that crunch period was typically limited to the weeks before a game’s release date. But conditions are worsening in part because the underlying technology powering video games is changing, altering players’ expectations — and the industry more broadly — in the process.

Oh no! They have to work long hours in an air conditioned office for maybe a few weeks before the launch of a game?

There is really nothing in this article that is world shattering or unhealthy or unfair, but for some reason Time magazine of all places felt the need to talk about the poor misunderstood game worker. I'm sure this has nothing at all to do with the residual effects of GamerGate, oh wait they mentioned accusations of "sexism" in the article too so maybe it does.

[Parkbandit]

Industry: *does something bad*
Workers: "Maybe we should do something"
Status Quo Motherfuckers: "HEY THAT'S THE NATURE OF THE INDUSTRY MAN NOTHING YOU CAN DO"

You make it sound like industries aren't competitive.. like they don't want to steal other employees from other companies by offering them more money, better benefits and a better work environment.

I've never worked in an industry that "it's the nature of the industry" to treat their employees poorly. What industries are these?

[leifastagsweed]

Thought this was an interesting article about gaming employee stress and working conditions. A bit over-hyped, but some interesting info in there. Good luck to all the contract employees!

https://time.com/5603329/e3-video-game-creators-union/

Interesting article and I appreciate you sharing it. I would say that Seattle is a little ahead of the curve in this area having already been using and abusing contractors for decades. That said, there is a NEW controversial model that's evolving here in the tech sector and folks are taking notice....

https://www.inc.com/magazine/201511/paul-keegan/does-more-pay-mean-more-growth.html

[Stumplicker]

What examples? I just saw a dude that has been in the sector for 2 years at one job whining about the company laying him off and then folding.

The ones I've been going through in this thread. Those weren't made up. Microsoft, Gearbox, Thoughtworks, 2K Games. The Sierra example I only know from Sierra employee recollections on youtube, but the rest were all from direct professional (and in one case personal) relationships. They're not mine specifically, though I could go through a few of mine if you like too. They're less relevant because I've only really been on the outskirts as a contractor.

[Gelston]

The ones I've been going through in this thread. Those weren't made up. Microsoft, Gearbox, Thoughtworks, 2K Games. The Sierra example I only know from Sierra employee recollections on youtube, but the rest were all from direct professional (and in one case personal) relationships. They're not mine specifically, though I could go through a few of mine if you like too. They're less relevant because I've only really been on the outskirts as a contractor.

Sorry man, I was looking for articles or blogs from dudes that are in the industry. I'm not going to take your word for it, because well, you're you.

[Stumplicker]

Sorry man, I was looking for articles or blogs from dudes that are in the industry. I'm not going to take your word for it, because well, you're you.

Which part of what I've said do you find to be inaccurate? For that matter, what of anything I've said do you find to be inaccurate specifically? I generally cite a great deal of sources.

[Gelston]

Which part of what I've said do you find to be inaccurate? For that matter, what of anything I've said do you find to be inaccurate specifically? I generally cite a great deal of sources.

PRetty much the part where you said the gaming industry doesn't care about your resume and pays you entry level regardless.

[mgoddess]

I live here now and to be completely accurate the new Digipen complex is across the PARKING LOT from some of Microsoft's newest offices on Willows Rd. Facebook has moved into this complex, too. I was over there last week as a day tester for the new Facebook VR technology that's coming out shortly. Redmond is growing like a motherfucker.

Oh fucking balls, I didn't realize MS had bought up officespace over there... though, I just really am not surprised to hear it. Also not surprised that FB is getting Redmond-ized.

Edit: So glad Redmond has the six-stories-tall statute, though aren't there some companies trying to lobby to grow past that these days? (Says the lady who's now living across the border in BC...)

[leifastagsweed]

Edit: So glad Redmond has the six-stories-tall statute, though aren't there some companies trying to lobby to grow past that these days? (Says the lady who's now living across the border in BC...)

Downtown Redmond is now full of high rise econoboxes. Don't get me started about the traffic revisions. But they made up for it with a really big 'park' (concrete pads?!) in front of the 'mall' (which is now all Microsoft offices). You would not recognize it after a year gone.

[Stumplicker]

PRetty much the part where you said the gaming industry doesn't care about your resume and pays you entry level regardless.

For positions with large numbers of applicants, absolutely, which is the situation set up by the majority of the larger US studios. Microsoft has a game design college basically in their parking lot. The rest of the industry in the west isn't far off from that. There are large swaths of coding and graphic arts jobs that absolutely can and will be filled by recent grads willing to work for less.

You don't generally get fired from a company (again, a normal industry practice) and come back earning more at your next job. You start at a company low, and work your way up. But if the work your way up is taken out, you're constantly starting back at a lower rung. With skill and experience above the rest, you will advance, but it's a system designed to make it much harder than it would be in most other sector, hence the discussion for some sort of balancing factor.

[Alfster]

<insert random project management role>

I really don't see the difference. It's not the industry so much as each game is a project. If you're a developer you're only needed for development work. It's the same as any project manager. They come in, finish their project, then find new work. Be great at what you do and they'll find room for you on the next project.

[Taernath]

There is really nothing in this article that is world shattering or unhealthy or unfair, but for some reason Time magazine of all places felt the need to talk about the poor misunderstood game worker.

As far as I'm concerned, being forced to work 100 hours a week with no extra pay is theft, especially if you're laid off immediately afterwards.


You make it sound like industries aren't competitive.. like they don't want to steal other employees from other companies by offering them more money, better benefits and a better work environment.

The gaming industry doesn't compete within itself for workers because it doesn't have to. The last time you saw something like that was probably Ion Storm 15 years ago.

[Parkbandit]

Be great at what you do and they'll find room for you on the next project.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/ZcUGu59vhBGgbBhh0n/giphy.gif

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

<insert random project management role>

I really don't see the difference. It's not the industry so much as each game is a project. If you're a developer you're only needed for development work. It's the same as any project manager. They come in, finish their project, then find new work. Be great at what you do and they'll find room for you on the next project.

Yeah, we burn through PMs here all the time. It's the job, not the person, and good PMs always have a new project.

[Methais]

I see nothing wrong if these people want to try and unionize. I just hate how the media is acting like these are the most down trodden people on the entire planet. It's crazy the amount of "Oh woe is the game coder!" stuff I read in articles about this.

They want to unionize? Good for them. Let's not act like they are some sort of victims or something though. They aren't exactly down in a coal mine somewhere with no safety equipment making 50 cents an hour.

Case in point? Look at this shit from the article in the original post:



Really? PTSD because he was working on a violent and gory game?



Oh no! They have to work long hours in an air conditioned office for maybe a few weeks before the launch of a game?

There is really nothing in this article that is world shattering or unhealthy or unfair, but for some reason Time magazine of all places felt the need to talk about the poor misunderstood game worker. I'm sure this has nothing at all to do with the residual effects of GamerGate, oh wait they mentioned accusations of "sexism" in the article too so maybe it does.

If those coders are so unhappy then perhaps they should learn to journalism and...oh wait.

[Donquix]

"There's no way we could actually convince these idiots unions are bad, can we? That wouldn't work. Would it?" --Some dudes smoking cigars in an exclusive club in New York, circa 1946

[Gelston]

"There's no way we could actually convince these idiots unions are bad, can we? That wouldn't work. Would it?" --Some dudes smoking cigars in an exclusive club in New York, circa 1946

Why are unions good, in 2019?

[Donquix]

Why are unions good, in 2019?

Why are they bad, specifically in 2019? Are you making some weird point that business owners suddenly started giving a shit about their drones sometime between reluctantly getting rid of things like child labor and now?

Cause holy shit, bad news for you.

[Tgo01]

Why are they bad, specifically in 2019? Are you making some weird point that business owners suddenly started giving a shit about their drones sometime between reluctantly getting rid of things like child labor and now?

Cause holy shit, bad news for you.

Nowadays I think it's mostly a combination of laws, regulations, social pressure, and a worker shortage, at least depending on the type of job. 100 years ago there were way too many people and not enough jobs so workers were easily replaceable. Now with training, experience, and not one fourth of the whole country unemployed it's not as easy for an employer to just fire everyone who steps out of line. Some companies go to great lengths specifically to not lose workers because of what a pain in the ass it is to get a qualified and suitable replacement.

I'm not saying unions didn't serve a purpose at one time and don't serve a purpose today, but they aren't exactly what they were decades ago. Remember when Hostess had to sell off their Twinkie brand because the union would rather see the company go bankrupt then work with the company? Or how about that UAW fiasco years ago when it was reported that the union owned a 30 million dollar golf course or some shit. Some unions have become more corrupt than the company they fight against.

[Methais]

They aren’t drones though. There is a shit ton of difference between good and bad programmers.

https://media.giphy.com/media/L8XuphFGqlSfe/giphy.gif

[Tgo01]

Seriously can we just get a mod already? Make me a mod, I promise to only use my powers for good. And by good I mean whatever pleases me at any given time.

[Donquix]

Nowadays I think it's mostly a combination of laws, regulations, social pressure, and a worker shortage, at least depending on the type of job. 100 years ago there were way too many people and not enough jobs so workers were easily replaceable. Now with training, experience, and not one fourth of the whole country unemployed it's not as easy for an employer to just fire everyone who steps out of line. Some companies go to great lengths specifically to not lose workers because of what a pain in the ass it is to get a qualified and suitable replacement.

I'm not saying unions didn't serve a purpose at one time and don't serve a purpose today, but they aren't exactly what they were decades ago. Remember when Hostess had to sell off their Twinkie brand because the union would rather see the company go bankrupt then work with the company? Or how about that UAW fiasco years ago when it was reported that the union owned a 30 million dollar golf course or some shit. Some unions have become more corrupt than the company they fight against.

I'll take "shit industrial magnates from 1970 said" for 500 alex.

I'm sure it's just a weird coincidence that nearly every CEO ever is completely against unions and collective bargaining agreements. I bet it's because they CARE and are trying to save you from getting Hostess'd. Good point.

[Taernath]

Nowadays I think it's mostly a combination of laws, regulations, social pressure, and a worker shortage, at least depending on the type of job. 100 years ago there were way too many people and not enough jobs so workers were easily replaceable. Now with training, experience, and not one fourth of the whole country unemployed it's not as easy for an employer to just fire everyone who steps out of line. Some companies go to great lengths specifically to not lose workers because of what a pain in the ass it is to get a qualified and suitable replacement.

What field are you working in where the business altruistically self-regulates, everyone is a highly valued employee, and the union is useless?

[Gelston]

Seriously can we just get a mod already? Make me a mod, I promise to only use my powers for good. And by good I mean whatever pleases me at any given time.

You could have been a mod but you removed yourself from the poll you fucking retard.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Why are they bad, specifically in 2019? Are you making some weird point that business owners suddenly started giving a shit about their drones sometime between reluctantly getting rid of things like child labor and now?

Cause holy shit, bad news for you.

What is bad, specifically in 2019, about employers who want to limit costs and run lean efficient machines with profit as an end goal?

Cause without for profit organizations, holy shit, bad news for everyone.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I'll take "shit industrial magnates from 1970 said" for 500 alex.

I'm sure it's just a weird coincidence that nearly every CEO ever is completely against unions and collective bargaining agreements. I bet it's because they CARE and are trying to save you from getting Hostess'd. Good point.

I'm sure it's just a weird coincidence the nearly every employee without threat of becoming unemployed would simply do nothing but collect their check. Because they CARE if a company is profitable or not.

How many employees of the government do you think CARE about government waste? That is the nearest approximation to a protected class employee I can think of.

[Tgo01]

I'll take "shit industrial magnates from 1970 said" for 500 alex.

I'm sure it's just a weird coincidence that nearly every CEO ever is completely against unions and collective bargaining agreements. I bet it's because they CARE and are trying to save you from getting Hostess'd. Good point.

Of course they're against unions.

Companies are almost universally against taxes and regulations too. Who would have thought that a company would be against something that hinders the operation of their business? So weird.


What field are you working in where the business altruistically self-regulates, everyone is a highly valued employee, and the union is useless?

Businesses don't 100% self regulate, but with lawsuits flying around like they do they err on the side of caution a lot more than they did 100 years ago.

time4fun is apparently not in a union and makes half a million a year with a gender studies degree. She is proof of what I'm saying!

[Tgo01]

You could have been a mod but you removed yourself from the poll you fucking retard.

I know, won't make that mistake again :(

[Back]

The amount of derp is astounding.

Like paid vacation? Like 5 day work weeks? Like overtime? Like the 8 hour workday? The list goes on.

We can thank unions for that.

[Tgo01]

The amount of derp is astounding.

Like paid vacation? Like 5 day work weeks? Like overtime? Like the 8 hour workday? The list goes on.

We can thank unions for that.

We can thank laws for part of that. Vacation pay? I've had vacation pay in every job I've had, and I've only had one union job in my life.

Again we can recognize the good things unions have done in the past without saying they are still necessary or even good today. And of course every union is different. The union I belonged to had an office in D fucking C for some reason that they were paying a fortune on with my union dues. Why the hell do we need an office thousands of miles away from where I worked?

[Back]

We can thank laws for part of that. Vacation pay? I've had vacation pay in every job I've had, and I've only had one union job in my life.

Again we can recognize the good things unions have done in the past without saying they are still necessary or even good today. And of course every union is different. The union I belonged to had an office in D fucking C for some reason that they were paying a fortune on with my union dues. Why the hell do we need an office thousands of miles away from where I worked?

Some things we agree on, some we don't. Is every union a champion of the worker? No, some have been corrupted. Are they still needed? I think so. In our "let the buyer beware" society you bet your ass we should remain vigilant about our rights.

[Parkbandit]

The amount of derp is astounding.

Our champion speaks!


Like paid vacation? Like 5 day work weeks? Like overtime? Like the 8 hour workday? The list goes on.

We can thank unions for that.

I haven't had a paid vacation in 14 years. Maybe I should unionize!

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I haven't had a paid vacation in 14 years. Maybe I should unionize!

I checked my non union pay stub today. I have over 400 hours of sick leave, 600 hours of vacation. If I walked out the door right now company would owe me over 50G in payout. This is after I had heart surgery last year.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Meant to add, but I have a boss. You don’t, so there are pros and cons.

[Tgo01]

Let's gather 'round while ol' Tgo01 tells you a story about a coworker he had at his union job.

We were required to take 8 calls an hour, they wanted 10+ calls an hour but 8 was the minimum. Tgo01 being the good employee that he is took 12+ calls an hour.

Well this special coworker took 2 or 3 calls a day. Yes, 2 or 3 calls A DAY when 8 AN HOUR was the minimum. Could she be fired? Nope, too much seniority. When it came time for our office to be shut down did they let her go first to see if that could save some money to keep the office opened? Nope. They offered her a buyout, giving her 2 years salary, and with these 2 years added on to her time at the company she had enough years to retire with full benefits.

What happened to Tgo01, the model employee? He was laid off with a month's worth of compensation.

Yeah, I can't possibly imagine why companies hate unions.

And I don't begrudge the lady, she was one of the nicest people I have ever known, but there were some real pieces of shit at that place too who were complete dicks and also skated by because of the union. The worst offenders were the shop stewards because management kissed their ass as much as possible and the shop stewards managed to "lose" complaints lodged against management.

[Parkbandit]

Let's gather 'round while ol' Tgo01 tells you a story about a coworker he had at his union job.

We were required to take 8 calls an hour, they wanted 10+ calls an hour but 8 was the minimum. Tgo01 being the good employee that he is took 12+ calls an hour.

Well this special coworker took 2 or 3 calls a day. Yes, 2 or 3 calls A DAY when 8 AN HOUR was the minimum. Could she be fired? Nope, too much seniority. When it came time for our office to be shut down did they let her go first to see if that could save some money to keep the office opened? Nope. They offered her a buyout, giving her 2 years salary, and with these 2 years added on to her time at the company she had enough years to retire with full benefits.

What happened to Tgo01, the model employee? He was laid off with a month's worth of compensation.

Yeah, I can't possibly imagine why companies hate unions.

And I don't begrudge the lady, she was one of the nicest people I have ever known, but there were some real pieces of shit at that place too who were complete dicks and also skated by because of the union. The worst offenders were the shop stewards because management kissed their ass as much as possible and the shop stewards managed to "lose" complaints lodged against management.

If you are a bad employee that doesn't give a shit... you need to be in a union.

[Methais]

The amount of derp is astounding.

Like paid vacation? Like 5 day work weeks? Like overtime? Like the 8 hour workday? The list goes on.

We can thank unions for that.

I'm not in a union and I get all that with my job. Just got bumped up to 3 weeks vacation per year too.

Weird. How can this be with no union?

[Methais]

This is after I had shart surgery last year.

Fixed.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Fixed.

Is that like when they fix your turd cutter?

[Alfster]

I'm not in a union and I get all that with my job. Just got bumped up to 3 weeks vacation per year too.

Weird. How can this be with no union?

Is 3 weeks considered good? I started at 4 and am up to 7 right now.

[Gelston]

The military gave me 4 weeks a year and we were pretty much slaves!

[Methais]

Is 3 weeks considered good? I started at 4 and am up to 7 right now.

They start out at 2 here and then add another week to it here and there.

Most days here are paid vacation anyway since I usually have tons of downtime and just fuck around on the internet most days.

[Alfster]

Yah. That certainly helps. I get seven weeks but I can only carry over 40 hours into the next year. I rarely take time off from November through March....so I end up losing at least a week every year

[Stumplicker]

Yah. That certainly helps. I get seven weeks but I can only carry over 40 hours into the next year. I rarely take time off from November through March....so I end up losing at least a week every year

I read a statistic saying that something like 50% of workers that do have paid vacation give it up every year, to the tune of 62 billion dollars. Forget exactly where I saw it. Nevermind. Here it is - https://www.ustravel.org/research/state-american-vacation-2018

That said, I try like hell to use mine up because I don't get any rollover, but yeah, November-March for me as well is the most busy season.

[Gelston]

I read a statistic saying that something like 50% of workers that do have paid vacation give it up every year, to the tune of 62 billion dollars. Forget exactly where I saw it. Nevermind. Here it is - https://www.ustravel.org/research/state-american-vacation-2018

That said, I try like hell to use mine up because I don't get any rollover, but yeah, November-March for me as well is the most busy season.

I think that is due to having holidays whenever they'd be planning to take the vacations anyways.

[Stumplicker]

I think that is due to having holidays whenever they'd be planning to take the vacations anyways.

Could be. Lot of "normal" days off stacked towards the end of the year. End of the year is also super crunch time for just about any business that sells anything though for that same reason, so there's a lot more work to be done. I'm a little luckier in that my busy season starts tapering off about a month or two prior to the end of the fiscal year, but I get hit hard a month earlier for Halloween/Thanksgiving/Christmas.

[Gelston]

Could be. Lot of "normal" days off stacked towards the end of the year. End of the year is also super crunch time for just about any business that sells anything though for that same reason, so there's a lot more work to be done. I'm a little luckier in that my busy season starts tapering off about a month or two prior to the end of the fiscal year, but I get hit hard a month earlier for Halloween/Thanksgiving/Christmas.

My family was all oil and accounting, their end of the year is September. Their offices were generall dead for the last two weeks of Dec and the first 2 weeks of January.

[Stumplicker]

My family was all oil and accounting, their end of the year is September. Their offices were generall dead for the last two weeks of Dec and the first 2 weeks of January.

I was initially typing out how I would love that, but the fact is that this is my slow season (even if it isn't particularly slow for me). End of year in September probably means a lot of prep when the weather is nice. If I wanted to, I could cut out of work early today and go fishing or golfing, which now that I'm thinking about it seems like it might happen. Winter here is like 9 months long. Gotta get out and do stuff while the stuff doin' is good.

[Gelston]

I was initially typing out how I would love that, but the fact is that this is my slow season (even if it isn't particularly slow for me). End of year in September probably means a lot of prep when the weather is nice. If I wanted to, I could cut out of work early today and go fishing or golfing, which now that I'm thinking about it seems like it might happen. Winter here is like 9 months long. Gotta get out and do stuff while the stuff doin' is good.

It is really only about a week of more than usual workload these days. Accounting systems are a lot better than they used to be, well, at companies that actual upgrade their accounting systems. A lot are still using shit from the 80s.

[Stumplicker]

It is really only about a week of more than usual workload these days. Accounting systems are a lot better than they used to be, well, at companies that actual upgrade their accounting systems. A lot are still using shit from the 80s.

I spend most of my days during the slow season piping data through ODBC to a SQL database because in 2015 my company thought it was a great idea to install a database written for a car company in the 1970s to replace the accounting software and "database" they'd been using prior. And that would be true if they'd paid to have it custom tailored to the business. They did not. It still has references to car manufacturing all over the place.

https://i.imgur.com/rDYI3oB.jpg