View Full Version : US Forces kill Italian Secret Service Man in Iraq
US Forces fired on a car carrying Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena and two Italian secret service men. The Italian Secret Service has just rescued her from Iraqi rebels as she was held captive.
The Italian secret service man shielded the journalist's body from the American soldiers bullets and was killed himself
STORY HERE (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=552173)
theotherjohn
03-04-2005, 06:13 PM
The U.S. military said "at approximately 8:55 p.m. tonight, coalition forces assigned to the multinational force Iraq fired on a vehicle that was approaching a coalition checkpoint in Baghdad at a high rate of speed."
A U.S. patrol "attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car," the military said in a statement. "When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block which stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two others."
You should rename your thread. Soldier shoots after Italian makes error in judgement
Parkbandit
03-04-2005, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by theotherjohn
You should rename your thread. Soldier shoots after Italian makes error in judgement
Exactly.
Originally posted by theotherjohn
The U.S. military said "at approximately 8:55 p.m. tonight, coalition forces assigned to the multinational force Iraq fired on a vehicle that was approaching a coalition checkpoint in Baghdad at a high rate of speed."
A U.S. patrol "attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car," the military said in a statement. "When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block which stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two others."
You should rename your thread. Soldier shoots after Italian makes error in judgement
Its seems funny that 2-3 Italian secret service men would approach a check point at a high rate of speed, then not stop when asked to by US Soldiers, even after warning shots were fired.
I think a more plausible explanation is that the US military version is full of shit or the US Soldiers failed to properly identify themselves. In either case they are at fault.
I am interested to see what the surviving Italian secret service man (men) and journalist have to say about the incident. I bet their recollection of events differ from the US military one.
I think my title was tame when compared to what it could have read.
Soulpieced
03-04-2005, 06:33 PM
I think a more plausible explanation is that the US military version is full of shit or the US Soldiers failed to properly identify themselves. In either case they are at fault.
.
How exactly are you not properly identifying yourself if you are in uniform at a checkpoint and a car is approaching at a high velocity?
Bobmuhthol
03-04-2005, 06:33 PM
I think it's a matter of them being retarded and dying for it.
You're right, it's odd that they did that. That's why one of them isn't alive. They don't get killed for not doing odd things.
theotherjohn
03-04-2005, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by xtc
Its seems funny that 2-3 Italian secret service men would approach a check point at a high rate of speed, then not stop when asked to by US Soldiers, even after warning shots were fired.
having spent 10 months in Iraq and 3 months in Kuwait, it seems normal for Italians to do something stupid.
Originally posted by theotherjohn
Originally posted by xtc
Its seems funny that 2-3 Italian secret service men would approach a check point at a high rate of speed, then not stop when asked to by US Soldiers, even after warning shots were fired.
having spent 10 months in Iraq and 3 months in Kuwait, it seems normal for Italians to do something stupid.
Like Abu Ghraib you mean?
theotherjohn
03-04-2005, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by xtc
[quote]
Like Abu Ghraib you mean?
thats it? all you got? A little prison abuse where no one died?
Do you realize even with the abuse done by the few Americans, the prisoners were and are still living better inside the prison than out?
Originally posted by theotherjohn
Originally posted by xtc
[quote]
Like Abu Ghraib you mean?
thats it? all you got? A little prison abuse where no one died?
Do you realize even with the abuse done by the few Americans, the prisoners were and are still living better inside the prison than out?
So we should be thankful that the US Soldiers ONLY tortured the soldiers and didn't kill them?
Please save your B.S. about Iraq for those who haven't been to the Middle East and for those who don't live in a city with a massive Middle Eastern demographic.
Latrinsorm
03-04-2005, 06:48 PM
For it being BS, you haven't done a great job of refuting his explanation. Saying "yeah well you guys did bad stuff too!!" isn't an argument, it's finger-pointing.
theotherjohn
03-04-2005, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by xtc
Please save your B.S. about Iraq for those who haven't been to the Middle East and for those who don't live in a city with a massive Middle Eastern demographic.
what part of Iraq have you been in?
I was in Mosul, Baghdad, Kirkuk, Tallil and more importantly for you Camp Victory North which is located near Abu Ghurayb.
So yeah I can tell you conditions in the prison are better than conditions outside.
[Edited on 3-4-2005 by theotherjohn]
Soulpieced
03-04-2005, 06:55 PM
PWNZORED@!!!!!!11!!ONE!!!!!
Suppa Hobbit Mage
03-04-2005, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by xtc
Originally posted by theotherjohn
The U.S. military said "at approximately 8:55 p.m. tonight, coalition forces assigned to the multinational force Iraq fired on a vehicle that was approaching a coalition checkpoint in Baghdad at a high rate of speed."
A U.S. patrol "attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car," the military said in a statement. "When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block which stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two others."
You should rename your thread. Soldier shoots after Italian makes error in judgement
Its seems funny that 2-3 Italian secret service men would approach a check point at a high rate of speed, then not stop when asked to by US Soldiers, even after warning shots were fired.
I think a more plausible explanation is that the US military version is full of shit or the US Soldiers failed to properly identify themselves. In either case they are at fault.
I am interested to see what the surviving Italian secret service man (men) and journalist have to say about the incident. I bet their recollection of events differ from the US military one.
I think my title was tame when compared to what it could have read.
ITS A CONSPIRACY!
theotherjohn
03-04-2005, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
ITS A CONSPIRACY!
it is really hard to explain how insane gate guard is in Iraq.
Maybe Stealth or Ranger can add more on it.
Many times it will be a combination of american, iraqi and a coalition soldiers working together.
Right outside the gate will be many people. From vendors to people looking for jobs on the base.
When someone does something not normal such as driving fast towards the gate you can not afford to think. You must react to save your life and the people around you.
Like I said it was an error on the Italian's part. If he was so high speed then he would have had a satellite phone where he could have called ahead.
Suppa Hobbit Mage
03-04-2005, 07:13 PM
TOJ, I with you, I was mocking XTC. I need to be more clear in my mocking :( :(
When approaching armed guards, I'd think the LAST thing I'd do is SPEED towards the gate they are guarding.
theotherjohn
03-04-2005, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
TOJ, I with you, I was mocking XTC. I need to be more clear in my mocking :( :(
When approaching armed guards, I'd think the LAST thing I'd do is SPEED towards the gate they are guarding.
i should have hit reply instead of quote
Thats what I love about this war. Nobody is responsible for anything.
Keller
03-04-2005, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by Backlash
Thats what I love about this war. Nobody is responsible for anything.
No -- they are saying the retarded Italian driver is responsible.
Suppa Hobbit Mage
03-04-2005, 09:17 PM
Come on now, Backlash hates the military and all things Bush like, don't take that away from him. Let him blame the military for doing their job.
Its a tragic story. Still waiting to hear Giuliana Sgrena tell her side.
The White House has already called Bersculoni to express regret and sorrow and pledge an investigation.
[Edited on 3-5-2005 by Backlash]
Arshwikk
03-04-2005, 09:27 PM
I'm glad the soldiers were not run over. If the Italian Secret Service was performing a rescue operation, coalition forces in the area should have been notified. If there's any conspiracy at all, it's an attempt to discredit America's role in Iraq through "media terrorism". I'm tired of hearing people pointing fingers at my country and it's people. We have young men and women risking their lives to basicly make the world a better place...period. Some seem to think it's all for American business (like oil) or some crap. Other countries are vultures, waiting to sell arms, or exploit the situation themselves, so don't buy into their pissing and moaning. Throughout history, America is the only nation ever to conquer other nations and ultmately restore them to autonomy...the ONLY one EVER.
I agree that this thread title is very inappropriate.
Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
Come on now, Backlash hates the military and all things Bush like, don't take that away from him. Let him blame the military for doing their job.
You must have forgotten to include the quote of me saying this in this thread. Which means you are full of shit.
Originally posted by Arshwikk
I agree that this thread title is very inappropriate.
Inappropriate how? Its true. Or do you not like the truth?
YOU WANT THE TRUTH?? YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!
Divinity
03-04-2005, 10:09 PM
I like how xtc still hasn't answered the question that was asked of him. Why tell someone to save it and then run away when someone calls you on it? If anything, I know where that leads. Heh.
Anyways, about the whole killing Italians and such. Ugh, I can't think. What comes to my mind is, if they are secret service, shouldn't they remain secret? Also, if it is at night and I'm driving fast with people flashing lights at me.. I'm not going to be able to see that well. Especially in a desert (assuming that is the enviroment they were in at the time), it's kinda harder to see things cause it gets dark fast.
I don't know, I could be totally off base here. (No pun intended.)
Arshwikk
03-04-2005, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Backlash
Originally posted by Arshwikk
I agree that this thread title is very inappropriate.
Inappropriate how? Its true. Or do you not like the truth?
YOU WANT THE TRUTH?? YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!
I'm not talking about the blatant reality, but rather the insinuation of fault. Besides, we only know what we're told...we can't possibly know for sure it's the truth.
Well appearantly even the corporate controlled US media aknowledges that in fact an Italian Secret Service Man trying to protect a rescued Italian Journalist was killed by US forces.
If you mean there is more to it than what the title suggests, I can agree.
Nicola Calipari is a hero in the truest sense of the word. A married man with 2 children who died in his mission to free and protect his fellow citizen Giuliana Sgrena, a female left-wing journalist no less.
But people on this board want to call him a retard and claim, oh well, that what happens.
Hulkein
03-04-2005, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by xtc
So we should be thankful that the US Soldiers ONLY tortured the soldiers and didn't kill them?
Please save your B.S. about Iraq for those who haven't been to the Middle East and for those who don't live in a city with a massive Middle Eastern demographic.
What the fuck does Abu Ghraib have to do with this?
People don't believe that it's the soldiers fault, so you bring up Abu Ghraib?
LOL, good work.
Stealth
03-05-2005, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by theotherjohn
Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
ITS A CONSPIRACY!
it is really hard to explain how insane gate guard is in Iraq.
Maybe Stealth or Ranger can add more on it.
Many times it will be a combination of american, iraqi and a coalition soldiers working together.
Right outside the gate will be many people. From vendors to people looking for jobs on the base.
When someone does something not normal such as driving fast towards the gate you can not afford to think. You must react to save your life and the people around you.
Like I said it was an error on the Italian's part. If he was so high speed then he would have had a satellite phone where he could have called ahead.
TOJ is pretty much dead on target. I was outside yesterday and a small Iraqi boy came running up with a toy AK-47, holding it at the "low ready", which means ready to aim and fire. We are all screaming at him to stop, luckily he stopped. The CP have strict rules of how they warn and then engage people who do not stop, if they don't you have people who drive up to the CP and blow up the car and all the people waiting to get in the CP. Given what I can see of the story, I stand behind the troopers.
Put yourself in this situation, you are standing there, a vehicle is approaching you at a high rate of speed and not stopping after you fired warning shots, flashed lights and gave hand signals. There are several vehicle born bombs going off every day and killing and wounding many people...what do you do?
Stealth
Originally posted by theotherjohn
Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
ITS A CONSPIRACY!
it is really hard to explain how insane gate guard is in Iraq.
Maybe Stealth or Ranger can add more on it.
No. They were pretty fucking stupid.
I'm glad the soldiers were not run over.
Actually, it has less to do with being run over than blown the fuck up. Maybe (NOT) Keller, Backlash and XTC can talk when they've had their buddies blown up because some asshat drove an explosion laden car into the side of their vehicle.
I would have done the same thing in the same situation. I've even shot at Hummers who have decided its a great thing to roll up on a stryker with their high beams on (So you can't tell what you are) and not stop when they get flashed with the flood lights.
[Edited on 3-5-2005 by RangerD1]
Keller
03-05-2005, 04:45 AM
Originally posted by Stealth
...what do you do?
Stealth
I'm going to beat SHM to it and say, "Pass the dutchie on the left hand side."
Keller
03-05-2005, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by RangerD1
I'm glad the soldiers were not run over.
Actually, it has less to do with being run over than blown the fuck up. Maybe Keller, Backlash and XTC can talk when they've had their buddies blown up ...
Are we like the three fucking liberal amigos or what?
And for being in agreance with your perspective and having already stated that in this thread, how do I get to be first in the list?
:wtf:
theotherjohn
03-05-2005, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by Backlash
Nicola Calipari is a hero in the truest sense of the word. A married man with 2 children who died in his mission to free and protect his fellow citizen Giuliana Sgrena, a female left-wing journalist no less.
But people on this board want to call him a retard and claim, oh well, that what happens.
I said he made an error in judgement.
Which I will be the first to say. It might not have even been his call. He might have been in the car saying under his breath how fucked up the situation was but did his job anyway.
And for being in agreance with your perspective and having already stated that in this thread, how do I get to be first in the list?
^
I took your previous post as sarcasm. My mistake, I apologize.
Suppa Hobbit Mage
03-05-2005, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Keller
Originally posted by Stealth
...what do you do?
Stealth
I'm going to beat SHM to it and say, "Pass the dutchie on the left hand side."
That'd be funny (I guess) if I knew what the hell a dutchie was.
Originally posted by RangerD1
Maybe (NOT) Keller, Backlash and XTC can talk when they've had their buddies blown up because some asshat drove an explosion laden car into the side of their vehicle.
I don’t recall this thread having anything to do with you or me. I also don’t recall expressing joy at people (especially my buddies) being blown up.
Parkbandit
03-05-2005, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Backlash
Its a tragic story. Still waiting to hear Giuliana Sgrena tell her side.
Oh yea.. I can't wait to hear her slanted side of the events. She's went there to write about all the 'injustices' of the US forces and how honorable the insurgents are.
I can't wait for her version of events.. I love a good piece of fiction.
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Originally posted by Backlash
Its a tragic story. Still waiting to hear Giuliana Sgrena tell her side.
Oh yea.. I can't wait to hear her slanted side of the events. She's went there to write about all the 'injustices' of the US forces and how honorable the insurgents are.
I can't wait for her version of events.. I love a good piece of fiction.
Thats why FOX is so popular...
Still, I would like to hear any eye-witness recounts of the situation. I’ll bet you we won’t ever hear any, and in three days you will have completely forgotten about this incident.
Parkbandit
03-05-2005, 10:43 AM
Sorry.. but part of me wished that she was tortured by her so called "Freedom Fighters". It's like idiots from PETA getting maimed by animals or that guy against seat belt laws dying in a crash for not wearing one.
Karma... and she still has an outstanding balance if you ask me.
Parkbandit
03-05-2005, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by Backlash
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Originally posted by Backlash
Its a tragic story. Still waiting to hear Giuliana Sgrena tell her side.
Oh yea.. I can't wait to hear her slanted side of the events. She's went there to write about all the 'injustices' of the US forces and how honorable the insurgents are.
I can't wait for her version of events.. I love a good piece of fiction.
Thats why FOX is so popular...
Still, I would like to hear any eye-witness recounts of the situation. I’ll bet you we won’t ever hear any, and in three days you will have completely forgotten about this incident.
SOMEONE MENTIONED FICTION, SO MY COMEBACK IS FOX NEWS.
Wow.
:rolleyes:
Keller
03-05-2005, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by RangerD1
And for being in agreance with your perspective and having already stated that in this thread, how do I get to be first in the list?
^
I took your previous post as sarcasm. My mistake, I apologize.
Most people still don't get that 90% of my one-line posts are sarcastic. Unfortunately this one wasn't. I'm a critic of this administration, just not a predictable one.
Keller
03-06-2005, 04:17 PM
OMG, she disagrees! (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/italy.iraq/index.html)
I'm critical of the administration. I definately opposed going to war. But this bitch is crazy. She wants us to believe that this was all a planned assassination to take out some crazy reporter.
It almost makes me wish we would have planned this. Because had we wanted to kill her, we would have.
Diamondback
03-06-2005, 04:28 PM
Yes, she is so important a player that the US is willing to take the international heat just to kill her.
What an idiot.
She is disgracing the name of the Italian Intelligence officer who died trying to bring her home. She should shut up and concentrate on the more realistic possibility of her driver making an error or of the soldiers manning the checkpoint shooting in error.
To say such foolishness as she has been is just mocking all the sacrifices and efforts made to secure her freedom.
theotherjohn
03-06-2005, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Diamondback
To say such foolishness as she has been is just mocking all the sacrifices and efforts made to secure her freedom.
the alleged 1 million sacrifices to secure her freedom
longshot
03-06-2005, 06:17 PM
I'm sure they will build a school and a petting zoo with those million sacrifices...
Keller
03-07-2005, 03:19 AM
I have the perfect pet for their petting zoo. :penis:
I usually don't post, but I thought the article posted by Keller was hilarious.
"there was no bright light, no signal."
"a patrol that shot as soon as they lit us up with a spotlight."
Both by Sgrena... I guess a spotlight doesn't count as a bright light?
One other member of the Italian secret service was in the car as well and was wounded. Italian officials said earlier there were two others in the car, but said Sunday there was only one other.
Seems the Italians just can't keep their story straight.
Parkbandit
03-07-2005, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by Keller
OMG, she disagrees! (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/italy.iraq/index.html)
I'm critical of the administration. I definately opposed going to war. But this bitch is crazy. She wants us to believe that this was all a planned assassination to take out some crazy reporter.
It almost makes me wish we would have planned this. Because had we wanted to kill her, we would have.
This should hopefully put all of her 'reporting' into a much better perspective. Like I said earlier.. I like good fiction.
Atlanteax
03-07-2005, 10:40 AM
What likely happened was that there were two checkpoints. 1st one (further out) was Iraqi, followed by the American one near the Airport.
The Italians went through the 1st checkpoint, and thinking it was all clear, sped towards the Airport, unaware (or mistaking the Iraqi one for the American one) of the American checkpoint ahead.
The Italian convoy ignored (or did not see) the Americans' warnings to slow/stop, and an unfortunate tragedy occured.
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Originally posted by Keller
OMG, she disagrees! (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/italy.iraq/index.html)
I'm critical of the administration. I definately opposed going to war. But this bitch is crazy. She wants us to believe that this was all a planned assassination to take out some crazy reporter.
It almost makes me wish we would have planned this. Because had we wanted to kill her, we would have.
This should hopefully put all of her 'reporting' into a much better perspective. Like I said earlier.. I like good fiction.
Of course the US Military isn't covering their butts for fucking up. She must be lieing. No wonder there is an obesity problem in America, so many Bush supporters need massive asses to stick their head up.
[Edited on 3-7-2005 by xtc]
Parkbandit
03-07-2005, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by xtc
Of course the US Military isn't covering their butts for fucking up. She must be lieing. No wonder their is an obesity problem in America, so many Bush supporters need massive asses to stick their head up.
I'll wait until the final report comes out.. and at that time you can kiss my ass for ALWAYS jumping to the conclusion that the US is the big evil empire.
Just her saying that she believes she was targetted on purpose should fucking clue you in that she's obviously not a real journalist and that she is far too self absorbed to even have the slightest bit of credibility.
Originally posted by theotherjohn
Originally posted by xtc
Please save your B.S. about Iraq for those who haven't been to the Middle East and for those who don't live in a city with a massive Middle Eastern demographic.
what part of Iraq have you been in?
I was in Mosul, Baghdad, Kirkuk, Tallil and more importantly for you Camp Victory North which is located near Abu Ghurayb.
So yeah I can tell you conditions in the prison are better than conditions outside.
[Edited on 3-4-2005 by theotherjohn]
I was in Baghdad quite a few years ago. The supposition that being held in a prison, with the risk of being tortured, is better than being outside is ludicrious.
I also have an Iraqi friend who grew up in Iraq and who then moved to Canada. He has gone back to Iraq and is working as a translator. He was back in Toronto last month for a vacation. He was disgusted by what he heard of Abu Ghraib. Next time I talk to him I will ask him if he would rather be in Abu Ghraib or outside it.
Parkbandit
03-07-2005, 11:31 AM
I find anyone who complains about Abu Ghraib and doesn't complain about the treatment of captured foreigners or the conditions of Iraq prior to our coming there to be completely full of shit and simply having no ability to be objective.
I would much rather have pictures of me taken naked than to have my head sawed off by a dull blade while I am still alive. Maybe that's just me though.
Originally posted by Parkbandit
I find anyone who complains about Abu Ghraib and doesn't complain about the treatment of captured foreigners or the conditions of Iraq prior to our coming there to be completely full of shit and simply having no ability to be objective.
I would much rather have pictures of me taken naked than to have my head sawed off by a dull blade while I am still alive. Maybe that's just me though.
A lot more was done at Abu Ghraib than just naked pictures.
The act of beheading someone is heinous , vicious, and unspeakable. It also against the teachings of Islam. It is doubly heinous when it is a civilian. However this doesn't justify the torture at Abu Ghraib. It is tough to claim that we in the west hold the high ground when we commit these acts.
I would have never mention Abu Ghraib if not for theotherjohn's ridiculous comments about Italians.
Originally posted by Keller
OMG, she disagrees! (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/italy.iraq/index.html)
I'm critical of the administration. I definately opposed going to war. But this bitch is crazy. She wants us to believe that this was all a planned assassination to take out some crazy reporter.
It almost makes me wish we would have planned this. Because had we wanted to kill her, we would have.
That was my first reaction as well, being targeted seems far fetched. However former CNN news Chief Eason Jordan has said that journalists in Iraq are deliberately targeted by the US military. I still don’t really believe it.
I do believe her recollection of events as to what happened that day i.e. that they weren't travelling at a high rate of speed and that they weren't flashed or hand signalled. I think that if they let the other secret service man speak, he will confirm her recollection of events.
Latrinsorm
03-07-2005, 02:56 PM
Ask yourself this, xtc. What's more likely: that US soldiers would purposefully shoot at but be unable to fully eliminate an unarmed, civilian vehicle carrying three people, or that the Italians did not heed the checkpoint for whatever reason?
Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Ask yourself this, xtc. What's more likely: that US soldiers would purposefully shoot at but be unable to fully eliminate an unarmed, civilian vehicle carrying three people, or that the Italians did not heed the checkpoint for whatever reason?
It seems unlikely to me that Italian Secret Service agents wouldn't stop for a check point, especially considering they had ex-hostage in the car.
It is more plausible to me that the US military noticed the car too late and then tried to play catch up. The US miltary has been accused being too aggressive and trigger happy. It isn't the first time that this has happened either.
Arshwikk
03-07-2005, 03:20 PM
It would be hard to be called trigger happy in a war zone, where open American soldiers serve as police and easy targets in a country where terrorism now abounds at an all-time high. Calling the American soldiers trigger happy is as absurd and baseless as the womans comment that she would not be surprised that she was a target because of America's policy on not negotiating with terrorists. Not negotiating with terrorists, and murdering citizens rescued from said terrorists after the fact has no tactical logic whatsoever. It was an irresponsible statement on her part, period.
Warriorbird
03-07-2005, 03:23 PM
I love Parkbandit trying to justify multiple wrongs making a right when he constantly tries to argue the opposite with people.
:whistles:
It was a stupid fuckup. Blaming the victim is ridiculous. I don't believe in any huge conspiracy in this instance, but damn, you'd expect things would be a bit better handled...especially with this dumb Italian reporter just having become a celebrity.
Originally posted by Arshwikk
It would be hard to be called trigger happy in a war zone, where open American soldiers serve as police and easy targets in a country where terrorism now abounds at an all-time high. Calling the American soldiers trigger happy is as absurd and baseless as the womans comment that she would not be surprised that she was a target because of America's policy on not negotiating with terrorists. Not negotiating with terrorists, and murdering citizens rescued from said terrorists after the fact has no tactical logic whatsoever. It was an irresponsible statement on her part, period.
You must be the White House press secretary.
Arshwikk
03-07-2005, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by WarriorbirdIt was a stupid fuckup. Blaming the victim is ridiculous. I don't believe in any huge conspiracy in this instance, but damn, you'd expect things would be a bit better handled...especially with this dumb Italian reporter just having become a celebrity.
Oh, the old victimism approach.
Did you know that 200% of all Americans are victims of something "wrong"?
You know, like, "McDonald's burned me with their hot coffie", or "McDonald's discriminates against me because their seats are too small for my 600 lb fat ass?"
Those kind of unfortunate victims.
1. She chose to do a job with complete understanding of the danger.
2. Italy chose to rescue her through secret negotiation upon the realization of said danger.
3. The American disposition at checkpoints is batantly obvious to any government working in Iraq.
4. The end result of an accident has the media, and the Italian government insinuating it's America's fault.
Given 1,2, and 3, only a moron of logic could ever draw such a conclusion.
Originally posted by Arshwikk
Originally posted by WarriorbirdIt was a stupid fuckup. Blaming the victim is ridiculous. I don't believe in any huge conspiracy in this instance, but damn, you'd expect things would be a bit better handled...especially with this dumb Italian reporter just having become a celebrity.
Oh, the old victimism approach.
Did you know that 200% of all Americans are victims of something "wrong"?
You know, like, "McDonald's burned me with their hot coffie", or "McDonald's discriminates against me because their seats are too small for my 600 lb fat ass?"
Those kind of unfortunate victims.
1. She chose to do a job with complete understanding of the danger.
2. Italy chose to rescue her through secret negotiation upon the realization of said danger.
3. The American disposition at checkpoints is batantly obvious to any government working in Iraq.
4. The end result of an accident has the media, and the Italian government insinuating it's America's fault.
Given 1,2, and 3, only a moron of logic could ever draw such a conclusion.
The above post brought to you by Scott McClellan White House Press Secretary.
US Soldiers shot an unarmed Italian civilian, how silly to blame the people who shot her.
Interestingly...
If it WAS a deliberate attempt on her life, someone fucked up.
If it WASN’T a deliberate attempt on her life, someone fucked up.
Just fucked up no matter how you look at it.
Warriorbird
03-07-2005, 04:01 PM
Did you know your post had nothing to do with anything, Arshwikk?
Seriously... seperate your waaah waah emo conservativism from it for a second and listen.
If Rupert Murdoch (just taking a non American conservative figure) somehow got shot by American soldiers accidentally.... or say, his driver did....
it'd be a fuckup.
You wouldn't be blaming him.
It's the rational response.
I'm not coming from the "wacko liberal" camp here, which would be backing up Eason Jordan and saying that American soldiers were shooting reporters who saw too much.
[Edited on 3-7-2005 by Warriorbird]
Arshwikk
03-07-2005, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Warriorbird
Did you know your post had nothing to do with anything, Arshwikk?
Seriously... seperate your waaah waah emo conservativism from it for a second and listen.
If Rupert Murdoch (just taking a non American conservative figure) somehow got shot by American soldiers accidentally.... or say, his driver did....
it'd be a fuckup.
You wouldn't be blaming him.
It's the rational response.
I'm not coming from the "wacko liberal" camp here, which would be backing up Eason Jordan and saying that American soldiers were shooting reporters who saw too much.
[Edited on 3-7-2005 by Warriorbird]
Obviously my post had plenty to do with something, or you would not be responding to it. And ignorantly you assume my stance on a variation of the scenerio, where you cannot. Therefore, your arguement is completely without ground now.
My point is that it's an accident, nothing more, and there are no true innocent victims here. Innocence implies complete ignorance of the possibility of danger, as in children. There are no such people in this story.
If you do not share my opinion, so be it, but to discredit my arguement, which I clearly backed with the facts of the situation is merely indicative of your insecurity with your own point of view.
Warriorbird
03-07-2005, 04:50 PM
You backed it up with... propaganda. Seperate a bit.
People can respond any time they want when they think folks are incorrect.
Frivolous lawsuits have 0 to do with a civilian being shot.
It's a fuckup. I'm sorry if you can't grasp that. Then again, all Whitehouse spin teams are skilled, Republican or Democrat.
"no true innocent victims here."
What bullshit. You'd be bitching up a storm if an American got shot rescuing an American reporter.
Arshwikk
03-07-2005, 05:00 PM
No, I would not be bitching up a storm. Again you backup your jackass comments with theoretical opinions that you assume I would have...that's about as concrete as a hot air balloon.
Also, there are no victims here, or they are all victims. That's a matter of how someone views responsibility. All parties are responsible, or none in this case. It's not propaganda, who the fuck are you to determine what the truth is? You have the same facts as me. Obviously, you were not there to contradict anything you have read or seen on TV.
I cannot speak for you as you like to do for me, but were I the reporter, I would have realized the danger. Were I the Italian government, I would have taken some responsibility for not making sure the American checkpoint was properly informed. Were I the American soldiers, I would have followed protocol and fired at the vehicle for speeding towards me with no apparent intent to stop.
That is what I think. Period.
Keller
03-07-2005, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Warriorbird
Did you know your post had nothing to do with anything, Arshwikk?
Seriously... seperate your waaah waah emo conservativism from it for a second and listen.
If Rupert Murdoch (just taking a non American conservative figure) somehow got shot by American soldiers accidentally.... or say, his driver did....
it'd be a fuckup.
You wouldn't be blaming him.
It's the rational response.
I'm not coming from the "wacko liberal" camp here, which would be backing up Eason Jordan and saying that American soldiers were shooting reporters who saw too much.
[Edited on 3-7-2005 by Warriorbird]
Murdoch is a capitalist, not a conservative. He realized the opportunity to make some serious cash by providing the only cable news channel for the political right in America.
As far as who is to blame -- until it's proven that soldiers are trigger happy at checkpoints and break their mandated procedure, I'll continue to place the blame with the Italians. When you break down the options logically, you've only a couple of choices. As I don't see the this type tragedy happening often, I'm going to suppose the checkpoints always follow their procedure. And I can only imagine in their haste to flee captivity, the Italians ...
WTF am I talking about. I've been to Italy. I've seen Italian drivers.
Case closed.
[Edited on 3-7-2005 by Keller]
Arshwikk
03-07-2005, 05:03 PM
Also, no one is debating that it is a "fuckup" as you like to say, but rather who is at fault. It's clear to me you think America is at fault. I believe that is a one sided, and ignorant view, which is why we are even having this conversation.
*This was in response to Warriorbird.
[Edited on 3-7-2005 by Arshwikk]
Caiylania
03-07-2005, 06:13 PM
I've lurked at this thread and decided to throw in a post.
I live in Italy and have Italian friends. After discussing this with them, figured I'd put it here.
They agreed someone screwed up but its retarded to even think it was an attempt on her life.
The driver was at fault for speeding towards a checkpoint. They hate that the guy died but don't hold 'america' or the guards accountable. And not just because they have American friends. Many of their anti-war/american friends who have heard of this also don't think its this huge deal or conspiracy. The reporter not being that over all popular also has an impact. Hell, she writes for a communist paper.
Left wing right wing its all stupid shit. Someone died an honorable death trying to save someone else. Whether that person deserved it or not, he did his job and the family is without a father and the reporter is using it to advance her career (if it could be called that)
It sucks it happened, it really does. But its a risk that has to be taken to protect other people from those who would speed towards guards with every intent to kill.
And as for the fat ass comment for having some place to shove our heads, if I had a fat ass I'd probably need it to sit on your big ass head that seems to think it knows everything. America is not evil with an evil government. Get off it.
Keller
03-07-2005, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by Caiylania
Left wing right wing its all stupid shit. Someone died an honorable death trying to save someone else. Whether that person deserved it or not, he did his job and the family is without a father and the reporter is using it to advance her career (if it could be called that)
It sucks it happened, it really does. But its a risk that has to be taken to protect other people from those who would speed towards guards with every intent to kill.
And as for the fat ass comment for having some place to shove our heads, if I had a fat ass I'd probably need it to sit on your big ass head that seems to think it knows everything. America is not evil with an evil government. Get off it.
Very well said.
Arshwikk
03-07-2005, 06:27 PM
I'm putting Caiylania on my "People I owe a beer" list.
Thank you!
Latrinsorm
03-07-2005, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by Backlash
Just fucked up no matter how you look at it. Yes.
Also, teehee @ emo conservatism.
Warriorbird
03-07-2005, 06:57 PM
It's constant these days. It's so very "difficult" being conservative.
Warriorbird
03-07-2005, 07:03 PM
"It's clear to me you think America is at fault."
Siege mentality, no?
It's propaganda when you dispense directly from White House screed.
Jeff Gannon, no?
You clearly don't get where I'm coming from. It's unfortunate that a fellow who was damn well a hero got shot rescuing a crazy Italian reporter. I'm not blaming "America"... that's just your conservative siege mentality. I'm saying some soldiers messed up. A few soldiers != America. We shouldn't try to pass the buck and say that it was someone else's fault entirely. That's not taking responsibility for your actions, which is supposedly the core of conservative ideals.
Sure, it may've been extreme circumstances, but I think "The Italians didn't communicate well enough" seems like a copout.
Involuntary manslaughter is still manslaughter.
[Edited on 3-8-2005 by Warriorbird]
Arshwikk
03-07-2005, 07:10 PM
Just because I have an unbiased opinion that's not selling out to the "propoganda" of some media implications that does not make me conservative. It makes me intelligent...I look at the issue from a realistic perspective, not some witch burning one.
Drop the labels.
Warriorbird
03-07-2005, 07:13 PM
Your unbiased opinion read eerily like something released by the White House.
The "witch burning" opinion would be "OMG CONSPIRACYZOR!"
Arshwikk
03-07-2005, 07:17 PM
Interesting, I didn't draw jack shit from the White House, because I didn't care to see what they had to say. I do however think it interesting that someone with a credible education came to the same conclusion as myself...go figure.
As far as manslaughter goes, it's a miltary zone, not your backyard. Accidents in wartime can be viewed as accidents. This was an accident. All parties are responsible.
Arshwikk
03-07-2005, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by Warriorbird
Your unbiased opinion read eerily like something released by the White House.
The "witch burning" opinion would be "OMG CONSPIRACYZOR!"
No, the "witch burning" opinion is a great analogy to what you are doing, since you seem to be pointing a finger, and it's not a conspiracy, it's just one guys jackass baseless and illconcieved opinion.
I refer to my former post on the white house thing. Again, go figure.
Arshwikk
03-07-2005, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by Warriorbird
"It's clear to me you think America is at fault."
You clearly don't get where I'm coming from. It's unfortunate that a fellow who was damn well a hero got shot rescuing a crazy Italian reporter. I'm not blaming "America"... that's just your conservative siege mentality. I'm saying some soldiers messed up. A few soldiers != America. We shouldn't try to pass the buck and say that it was someone else's fault entirely. That's not taking responsibility for your actions, which is supposedly the core of conservative ideals.
Sure, it may've been extreme circumstances, but I think "The Italians didn't communicate well enough" seems like a copout.
[Edited on 3-8-2005 by Warriorbird]
This is fucking amazing...you can sit here and tell me laying SOME of the blame on the Italian end is a copout, while you put the blame entirely on "some American soldiers"...That is just fucking amazing. And somehow this falls under conservatism...Well, I'm just guessing that's because you are not conservative, and think your own opinion defines whatever the fuck your political party is.
Well, let me tell you something, you are a disgrace to them.
A guy who lives down my block was talking to me after he returned from Iraq. He was in charge of a roadblock there. It was approached by a vehicle that was stopped (because they stop them before reaching the roadblock to check them, as the roadblock itself is the last line of defense)...the car had a family in it, but out of the back lept a bunch of terrorists who immediatly began firing on the soldiers and the roadblock...This man watched two of his men, his friends, killed before the rest returned fire and killed the terrorists.
Those American soldiers followed protocol...they don't wait for a car to pull right up, it is stopped before then. The word we have is that the car was not slowing down even. Now, true or not, you or I do not know. But given that it is, what the fuck would you have done? YOU have orders, and you have your LIFE to worry about. Laying the blame on some soldiers would be a fucking copout...they did their jobs. Your just wrong, and can't fucking see it because you are apparently blinded by political affiliation.
Warriorbird
03-07-2005, 08:55 PM
You know... it'd be nice to think that way. The world's a simple place, black and white.
Once again, people are still punished for involuntary manslaughter and American soldiers have faced discipline for friendly fire casualties.
People were horrified when Pat Tillman died. If you paid attention, you probably were too.
Unless you think that's wrong?
Warriorbird
03-07-2005, 08:57 PM
Folks in this thread certainly didn't lay SOME of the blame on the Italians.
WE NEED TO LYNCH THE AMERICANS ANY WAY WE CAN!!111
Anyone with any sense in Iraq know that you do not roll up on a U.S. checkpoint, they know the procedures, but sometimes in the heat of the moment people lose that sense and make mistakes. If the U.S. troops there had attempted to kill the ocupants of the viehical I assure you they would not have survived. One thing that is a Standard Operating Procedure of a checkpoint is to have a Crew Served Weapon mounted on top of at least one of the viechials. Which means that they could have made swiss cheese of the car if they so wanted to. This woman is a fucking loon. She thinks herself important enough that the U.S. government would try to assassinate her.. anything that comes out of her mouth bullshit. Hell why didn't they just put a 9mm round in her skull when they saw she was still alive?
[Edited on 3-8-2005 by Dave]
Warriorbird
03-07-2005, 10:56 PM
As silly as the first sentence of your post is, Dave, the rest is pretty much spot on.
The act of beheading someone is heinous , vicious, and unspeakable. It also against the teachings of Islam.
^
More shit pulled out of your ass. Muhammed personally beheaded several people in his life time as the messenger of god, so I'd like to know your source for "It's against Islam". Undoubtedly you'll claim you meant something entirely different and that I'm an idiot for not seeing it in the first place but I figured I'd give you the benefit of the doubt anyway.
Caiylania
03-08-2005, 05:16 AM
Make it a root beer and I'll take you up on that :)
It saddens me that arguments like this will continue on into time unending.
Sometimes, there is no clear answer. People died, the families, the soldiers, all the people involved will suffer on different scales. Putting the blame on someone in a situation like this only enflares tempers and does yet MORE harm. Isn't it bad enough without adding to it?
I just don't get it.
Parkbandit
03-08-2005, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by Warriorbird
I love Parkbandit trying to justify multiple wrongs making a right when he constantly tries to argue the opposite with people.
:whistles:
I wasn't the one that brought up Abu when discussing how this Italian "journalist" was fired upon by US Forces.
And don't use the term "Reporter" when talking about this individual. That's a real stretch.
[Edited on 3-8-05 by Parkbandit]
Parkbandit
03-08-2005, 08:02 AM
Dear Arshwikk:
Well done. You said everything I wanted to.. so you saved alot of people thinking "Oh god.. there goes PB again.."
:clap:
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Originally posted by Warriorbird
I love Parkbandit trying to justify multiple wrongs making a right when he constantly tries to argue the opposite with people.
:whistles:
I wasn't the one that brought up Abu when discussing how this Italian "journalist" was fired upon by US Forces.
And don't use the term "Reporter" when talking about this individual. That's a real stretch.
[Edited on 3-8-05 by Parkbandit]
She was one of the people who broke the Abu Garib story.
I supose you don’t like calling her a reporter because either a) you disagree with her or b) you don’t like what she reports.
Parkbandit
03-08-2005, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by Backlash
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Originally posted by Warriorbird
I love Parkbandit trying to justify multiple wrongs making a right when he constantly tries to argue the opposite with people.
:whistles:
I wasn't the one that brought up Abu when discussing how this Italian "journalist" was fired upon by US Forces.
And don't use the term "Reporter" when talking about this individual. That's a real stretch.
[Edited on 3-8-05 by Parkbandit]
She was one of the people who broke the Abu Garib story.
I supose you don’t like calling her a reporter because either a) you disagree with her or b) you don’t like what she reports.
You would be incorrect on both counts. A reporter REPORTS the news.. not make shit up. A reporter doesn't use personal bias to tell a story.
Originally posted by Parkbandit
You would be incorrect on both counts. A reporter REPORTS the news.. not make shit up. A reporter doesn't use personal bias to tell a story.
How is she not a reporter when she reported about Abu Garib, which has been confirmed? How is she not a reporter when she goes to interview evacuees from Falujah to get their side of the story? If she were just making shit up why even bother conducting interviews?
If you are soley talking about her refuting the U.S. account of what happened, I wouldn’t consider her a reporter in that situation. I’d consider her someone under extreme duress.
Regardless, what impresses me most about this tragedy are the Italians. They thought enough of one of their citizens, a reporter for a communist paper no less, to rescue her. They valued her life that much despite her opposition to the war.
Originally posted by RangerD1
The act of beheading someone is heinous , vicious, and unspeakable. It also against the teachings of Islam.
^
More shit pulled out of your ass. Muhammed personally beheaded several people in his life time as the messenger of god, so I'd like to know your source for "It's against Islam". Undoubtedly you'll claim you meant something entirely different and that I'm an idiot for not seeing it in the first place but I figured I'd give you the benefit of the doubt anyway.
It is you who pulls shit out of your ass.
You have been spending too much time at Jerry Falwell's website to believe that Muhammed beheaded anyone.
The Koran says you shouldn't desecrate a body.
Originally posted by Dave
WE NEED TO LYNCH THE AMERICANS ANY WAY WE CAN!!111
Anyone with any sense in Iraq know that you do not roll up on a U.S. checkpoint, they know the procedures, but sometimes in the heat of the moment people lose that sense and make mistakes. If the U.S. troops there had attempted to kill the ocupants of the viehical I assure you they would not have survived. One thing that is a Standard Operating Procedure of a checkpoint is to have a Crew Served Weapon mounted on top of at least one of the viechials. Which means that they could have made swiss cheese of the car if they so wanted to. This woman is a fucking loon. She thinks herself important enough that the U.S. government would try to assassinate her.. anything that comes out of her mouth bullshit. Hell why didn't they just put a 9mm round in her skull when they saw she was still alive?
[Edited on 3-8-2005 by Dave]
I don't think she was targeted. However an Italian magistrate says Srgena reported there was no check point.
Additionally the official Italian account ( after interviewing the other Italian secret service agent) says that the car was travelling at 25 miles per hour and that they received no hand signals or flashing from US soldiers.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/08/italy.sgrena/index.html
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Originally posted by xtc
Of course the US Military isn't covering their butts for fucking up. She must be lieing. No wonder their is an obesity problem in America, so many Bush supporters need massive asses to stick their head up.
I'll wait until the final report comes out.. and at that time you can kiss my ass for ALWAYS jumping to the conclusion that the US is the big evil empire.
Just her saying that she believes she was targetted on purpose should fucking clue you in that she's obviously not a real journalist and that she is far too self absorbed to even have the slightest bit of credibility.
First off I don't jump to the conclusion that America is a big evil empire. In this situation it wreaked of cover your ass from the US military.
The official Italian account is out, the Italian secret service agent says the car wasn't going fast and that they received no warning from the US military.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/08/italy.sgrena/index.html
Would you like to fly or drive to Toronto to kiss my ass?
Originally posted by xtc
Originally posted by RangerD1
The act of beheading someone is heinous , vicious, and unspeakable. It also against the teachings of Islam.
^
More shit pulled out of your ass. Muhammed personally beheaded several people in his life time as the messenger of god, so I'd like to know your source for "It's against Islam". Undoubtedly you'll claim you meant something entirely different and that I'm an idiot for not seeing it in the first place but I figured I'd give you the benefit of the doubt anyway.
It is you who pulls shit out of your ass.
You have been spending too much time at Jerry Falwell's website to believe that Muhammed beheaded anyone.
The Koran says you shouldn't desecrate a body.
I think alot of it also boils down to the morally corrupt "Islamic" terrorists who manipulate the Koran to pursue this form of jihad, which includes beheading innocent people even today.
But, even Saudi Arabia beheads criminals to this day and that is the birth place of Islam.
[Edited on 3-8-2005 by DeV]
Warriorbird
03-08-2005, 11:52 AM
"A reporter doesn't use personal bias to tell a story."
Damn.... how do you explain Jeff Gannon then? Or the Drudge Report? Or Sinclair? Or Fox? Or heck, any of the paid shills for the Whitehouse?
Originally posted by DeV
Originally posted by xtc
Originally posted by RangerD1
The act of beheading someone is heinous , vicious, and unspeakable. It also against the teachings of Islam.
^
More shit pulled out of your ass. Muhammed personally beheaded several people in his life time as the messenger of god, so I'd like to know your source for "It's against Islam". Undoubtedly you'll claim you meant something entirely different and that I'm an idiot for not seeing it in the first place but I figured I'd give you the benefit of the doubt anyway.
It is you who pulls shit out of your ass.
You have been spending too much time at Jerry Falwell's website to believe that Muhammed beheaded anyone.
The Koran says you shouldn't desecrate a body.
I think alot of it also boils down to the morally corrupt "Islamic" terrorists who manipulate the Koran to pursue this form of jihad, which includes beheading innocent people even today.
But, even Saudi Arabia beheads criminals to this day and that is the birth place of Islam.
[Edited on 3-8-2005 by DeV]
Yes the terrorists justify anything they do. The Saudi Kingdom is in the business of keeping themselves in power. However this doesn't mean the Koran sanctions this action. It is like the KKK they were Christian and yet the Bible didn't sanction their actions.
I agree to an extent.
I veiw it the same way I would in which the bible says "thou shall not kill" as one of the ten commandments which was broken time and again in the name of God and Christ and take them both (Koran/ Bible) with a grain of salt.
It just goes to show the power of interpretation and missinterpretation.
Parkbandit
03-08-2005, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by Warriorbird
"A reporter doesn't use personal bias to tell a story."
Damn.... how do you explain Jeff Gannon then? Or the Drudge Report? Or Sinclair? Or Fox? Or heck, any of the paid shills for the Whitehouse?
Don't know Jeff Gannon
Don't consider Drudge a reporter
Don't know Sinclair
I see Fox News in the same way I see CBS News.
Don't consider the paid shills for the whitehouse reporters.
I hope you did have a point here. If it was that I know the difference between a reporter and an entertainer and you did not, then the point was taken.
Warriorbird
03-08-2005, 01:38 PM
:grins:
So... who do you consider reporters?
Everyone's got biases. If they uncover something important, I'm not going to completely discredit them. Hell, Drudge broke that Rathergate thing rather nicely in my opinion.
Parkbandit
03-08-2005, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Warriorbird
:grins:
So... who do you consider reporters?
Everyone's got biases. If they uncover something important, I'm not going to completely discredit them. Hell, Drudge broke that Rathergate thing rather nicely in my opinion.
You will never see a pro-Clinton or pro-liberal story from Drudge.. which makes him ineffective at reporting news. Much like not everything Bush does is perfect.. neither is it always wrong.
A professional reporter will curb their own personal beliefs and opinions and report the facts without slanting them in a good/bad light.
She seems incapable of this.
Originally posted by xtc
Originally posted by RangerD1
The act of beheading someone is heinous , vicious, and unspeakable. It also against the teachings of Islam.
^
More shit pulled out of your ass. Muhammed personally beheaded several people in his life time as the messenger of god, so I'd like to know your source for "It's against Islam". Undoubtedly you'll claim you meant something entirely different and that I'm an idiot for not seeing it in the first place but I figured I'd give you the benefit of the doubt anyway.
It is you who pulls shit out of your ass.
You have been spending too much time at Jerry Falwell's website to believe that Muhammed beheaded anyone.
The Koran says you shouldn't desecrate a body.
I'm gonna (rightly) assume that you've never even touched a copy of the Koran so I'll try and enlighten you. I'm sorry but I don't read much of Jerry Falwell so any consistencies are entirely incidental I assure you.
First and foremost. Muhammed did order the beheading of hundreds of not thousands of individuals during one of the (unsuccessful) attacks on Medina during his "absence" from Mecca.
Second of all, The practice of beheading is not only condoned but implicit for the infraction of several offenses in the Sharia.
Third of all, the "desecration of bodies" ban you are referring to is in regards to already dead bodies, in which case you would be correct. However, this has nothing at all to do with what is done to a fully living and breathing person who has made himself an enemy of Islam, whichever way that is defined.
I'm more than willing to assume that I've been reading a completely fictionous account of Muhammed's life and am more than willing to acceede the point if you can point me to which Sura(s) outlaws decapitation.
Fuck. I'll even give you points if you can tell me what a sura is without using google.
Edited to add:
On the subject of religious interpretation of the Koran. You may be right that certain parties dictate which parts of a religious text to follow based upon their pre conceived notions of what can be done.
Yes, it is true that there is an increasingly popular moderate (or modern depending on how you use the world) interpretation of the Koran that advocates the liberalist message of the Koran over the traditionalist Shria.
However, both the traditional and moderate factions have a claim to the legitimate interpretation of "law". In a simplified manner it can be said that one is the letter while another is the spirit. I don't think its fair to say that one side is right over another, especially given that even our society has problems determining which is the better course to take in the adjudication of pre-existing laws and social standards.
So, Like it or not Islamic people behead people and no amount of bullshit you spout is gonna change that.
Afterall, Do you think Arabs, persians, blacks or whoever try and distinguish between "good" and "bad" christians or jews?
In conclusion. XTC can suck a dick.
Thanks and have a nice day.
[Edited on 3-8-2005 by RangerD1]
Originally posted by RangerD1
Originally posted by xtc
Originally posted by RangerD1
The act of beheading someone is heinous , vicious, and unspeakable. It also against the teachings of Islam.
^
More shit pulled out of your ass. Muhammed personally beheaded several people in his life time as the messenger of god, so I'd like to know your source for "It's against Islam". Undoubtedly you'll claim you meant something entirely different and that I'm an idiot for not seeing it in the first place but I figured I'd give you the benefit of the doubt anyway.
It is you who pulls shit out of your ass.
You have been spending too much time at Jerry Falwell's website to believe that Muhammed beheaded anyone.
The Koran says you shouldn't desecrate a body.
I'm gonna (rightly) assume that you've never even touched a copy of the Koran so I'll try and enlighten you. I'm sorry but I don't read much of Jerry Falwell so any consistencies are entirely incidental I assure you.
First and foremost. Muhammed did order the beheading of hundreds of not thousands of individuals during one of the (unsuccessful) attacks on Medina during his "absence" from Mecca.
Second of all, The practice of beheading is not only condoned but implicit for the infraction of several offenses in the Sharia.
Third of all, the "desecration of bodies" ban you are referring to is in regards to already dead bodies, in which case you would be correct. However, this has nothing at all to do with what is done to a fully living and breathing person who has made himself an enemy of Islam, whichever way that is defined.
I'm more than willing to assume that I've been reading a completely fictionous account of Muhammed's life and am more than willing to acceede the point if you can point me to which Sura(s) outlaws decapitation.
Fuck. I'll even give you points if you can tell me what a sura is without using google.
Edited to add:
On the subject of religious interpretation of the Koran. You may be right that certain parties dictate which parts of a religious text to follow based upon their pre conceived notions of what can be done.
Yes, it is true that there is an increasingly popular moderate (or modern depending on how you use the world) interpretation of the Koran that advocates the liberalist message of the Koran over the traditionalist Shria.
However, both the traditional and moderate factions have a claim to the legitimate interpretation of "law". In a simplified manner it can be said that one is the letter while another is the spirit. I don't think its fair to say that one side is right over another, especially given that even our society has problems determining which is the better course to take in the adjudication of pre-existing laws and social standards.
So, Like it or not Islamic people behead people and no amount of bullshit you spout is gonna change that.
Afterall, Do you think Arabs, persians, blacks or whoever try and distinguish between "good" and "bad" christians or jews?
In conclusion. XTC can suck a dick.
Thanks and have a nice day.
[Edited on 3-8-2005 by RangerD1]
First off I own a Koran which was translated by Marmaduke Pickthall. It is wrapped in a cloth in my Den. The Koran is suppose to be treated with respect at all times, as Muslims believe it is the word of God. As a child I went to Mosque and Church. And you what? are reading a book.?
A Sura is the same as saying a book in the Koran, like the book of Mark in the Bible. A Sura is the same as a book or chapter.
Although Sharia law allows beheading as a punishment, the Koran does not. Sharia law and the Koran conflict at times. Muslims are not suppose to desecrate desicrate a body alive or dead. That is why no tatoos no piercings.
The battle you refer to was between Muslims and Jews. The only scholar to assert that anyone was beheaded is Professor Davidson at New College in Edinburgh. Davidson was deeply versed in German theology and far from an objective source.
[Edited on 3-8-2005 by xtc]
Well, I wouldn't go so far as saying its the same as mark in the bible.
I'm not personally familiar with Professor Davidson so I can't really comment on his work, but given the nature of the Sharia, and the recorded life of Muhammed I'd be inclined to believe that hes hardly the only "scholar" to suggest that beheading is allowable under Islamic tenants.
I'd wager that there are a few followers of Islam who disagree with you.
Oh and to be fair I did get the incidents mixed up.
Originally posted by RangerD1
Well, I wouldn't go so far as saying its the same as mark in the bible.
I'm not personally familiar with Professor Davidson so I can't really comment on his work, but given the nature of the Sharia, and the recorded life of Muhammed I'd be inclined to believe that hes hardly the only "scholar" to suggest that beheading is allowable under Islamic tenants.
I'd wager that there are a few followers of Islam who disagree with you.
I just used Mark as an example. Sura is synonymous with book or chapter in the Koran.
Davidson is the only one who I can find who claims this about Muhammed.
I found the quotes on mutilating bodies in the Hadith
Sahih Muslim Book 19
"I have learnt that you laid hands on a woman who had hurled abuses on me, and, therefore, got her hand amputated. God has not sought vengeance even in the case of polytheism, which is a great crime. He has not permitted mutilation even with regard to manifest infidelity. Try to be considerate and sympathetic in your attitude towards others in future. Never mutilate, because it is a grave offence. God purified Islam and the Muslims from rashness and excessive wrath."
Sahih Bukari Book 43 Number 654
"The Prophet forbade robbery (taking away what belongs to others without their permission), and also forbade mutilation (or maiming) of bodies"
I am sure some in Islam would disagree with me, but as you can see the Hadith quotes Muhammed as saying mutilating any body alive or dead is forbidden. The idea that it only relates to dead bodies is bullshit used to justify heinous actions.
Islam like all other religions has its assholes.
Parkbandit
03-08-2005, 04:37 PM
Sheesh.. I thought this topic was more about a communist writer who faked her own capture to get into the news?
Warriorbird
03-08-2005, 04:39 PM
This is the 21st century. Topic is mutable.
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Sheesh.. I thought this topic was more about a communist writer who faked her own capture to get into the news?
lol and reporting for Fox News this Tuesday is Parkbandit.
Parkbandit
03-08-2005, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by xtc
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Sheesh.. I thought this topic was more about a communist writer who faked her own capture to get into the news?
lol and reporting for Fox News this Tuesday is Parkbandit.
hehe.. it did kinda sound like it.
BUT IN MY DEFENSE:
It does seem awful "convenient" that she was captured by her "friends" and that exactly 2 weeks later she.. er .. her captors put out the video (in which she told the cameraman to stop as if she was directing it) and exactly 1 month she was just "released".
Originally posted by DeV
I agree to an extent.
I veiw it the same way I would in which the bible says "thou shall not kill" as one of the ten commandments which was broken time and again in the name of God and Christ and take them both (Koran/ Bible) with a grain of salt.
It just goes to show the power of interpretation and missinterpretation.
WRONG!
Thou shall not MURDER
Big difference.
Originally posted by xtc
Muslims are not suppose to desecrate desicrate a body alive or dead. That is why no tatoos no piercings.
[Edited on 3-8-2005 by xtc]
WRONG!
Females are allowed to pierce their nose.
Bobmuhthol
03-08-2005, 06:24 PM
6. Do not murder. Did God have to say it? Murder must refer to people taking the law into their own hands and killing. It cannot refer to war or capital punishment. These are dealt with elsewhere in the Bible. The Children of Israel waged great wars in God’s name. This commandment refers to our personal responsibility for the death of others. It is a rule for the individual.
Originally posted by Dave
Originally posted by DeV
I agree to an extent.
I veiw it the same way I would in which the bible says "thou shall not kill" as one of the ten commandments which was broken time and again in the name of God and Christ and take them both (Koran/ Bible) with a grain of salt.
It just goes to show the power of interpretation and missinterpretation.
WRONG!
Thou shall not MURDER
Big difference. Yes, big difference. I'm glad the meaning of either word was not lost on you.
Bobmuhthol
03-08-2005, 06:36 PM
Your post made this much sense:
so I'm going to assume you did not admit that you were wrong.
You were.
Yes. You are correct. Sometimes, it's so hard to admit when we're wrong.
Keller
03-08-2005, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by Dave
Originally posted by DeV
I agree to an extent.
I veiw it the same way I would in which the bible says "thou shall not kill" as one of the ten commandments which was broken time and again in the name of God and Christ and take them both (Koran/ Bible) with a grain of salt.
It just goes to show the power of interpretation and missinterpretation.
WRONG!
Thou shall not MURDER
Big difference.
Seeing as how Jesus says that even looking at a man with hate in your heart is breaking the commandment "Thou shalt not murder," I'm inclined to ask you to refrain from acting an ass.
Bobmuhthol
03-08-2005, 07:20 PM
<<Seeing as how Jesus says that even looking at a man with hate in your heart is breaking the commandment "Thou shalt not murder," I'm inclined to ask you to refrain from acting an ass.>>
Performing a coup de grace is far from being hateful. This is where the difference comes in between murder and kill.
Warriorbird
03-08-2005, 07:30 PM
Now you're just digging yourself deeper.
I am sure some in Islam would disagree with me, but as you can see the Hadith quotes Muhammed as saying mutilating any body alive or dead is forbidden.
^
Unfortunately the hadiths are controversial in that there is no real way (at this point) to tell which sayings had more credence and which hadiths to follow because like most religions there are contradictions.
For instance:
http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/hadith/muslim/had17.html
Book 17 about punishments for crime seem to be in contradiction to the anecdote in book 19. What it looks like to me is that Muhammed is making a distrincton between a real sinner (such as an apostate, or infidel) and someone relatively innocent. (It's funny but considering the nature of the "crime" it looks as if hes supporting freedom of speech)
In any event, the bastardization of the issue has more to do with who is defined as being the enemy and thus subject to the "wrath of islam" and who is actually civilians with no fault for the actions of others. Obviously, a female reporter is not the enemy of islam nor is a british health care worker.
Originally posted by Dave
Originally posted by xtc
Muslims are not suppose to desecrate desicrate a body alive or dead. That is why no tatoos no piercings.
[Edited on 3-8-2005 by xtc]
WRONG!
Females are allowed to pierce their nose.
Piercings are more cultural than Islamic. They turn a blind eye to it, however strictly speaking it isn't allowed.
Islam denounces excesses in beautifying oneself when it alters the physical features that Allah created him with. The Glorious Qur'an considers such alterations as inspired by Satan, who "...will command them (his devotees) to change what Allah has created..." (An-Nisa': 119)
Originally posted by RangerD1
I am sure some in Islam would disagree with me, but as you can see the Hadith quotes Muhammed as saying mutilating any body alive or dead is forbidden.
^
Unfortunately the hadiths are controversial in that there is no real way (at this point) to tell which sayings had more credence and which hadiths to follow because like most religions there are contradictions.
For instance:
http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/hadith/muslim/had17.html
Book 17 about punishments for crime seem to be in contradiction to the anecdote in book 19. What it looks like to me is that Muhammed is making a distrincton between a real sinner (such as an apostate, or infidel) and someone relatively innocent. (It's funny but considering the nature of the "crime" it looks as if hes supporting freedom of speech)
In any event, the bastardization of the issue has more to do with who is defined as being the enemy and thus subject to the "wrath of islam" and who is actually civilians with no fault for the actions of others. Obviously, a female reporter is not the enemy of islam nor is a british health care worker.
Book 19 of Sahih Muslim of the Hadith does seem to contradict book 17. Book 17 is prescribed punishments, as you can see Book 17 sets out which offences these punishments are applicable for:
"They are prescribed respectively for the following offences: adultery committed by married persons, theft, highway robbery, drunkenness and slander imputing unchastity to women."
It doesn't seem to set out a statute of behaviour for war.
I agree with you that a British health care worker or female reporter are not the enemies of Islam. I can't quote chapter and verse but the Koran is clear about innocents.
As an aside the Hadith is a commentary on the life of Muhammed. His teachings, law, traditions. It is not the Koran.
I think it is also important to view the Hadith in the context of the time it is written.
Warriorbird
03-09-2005, 03:44 PM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1517327,00.html
Originally posted by Warriorbird
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1517327,00.html If the article weren't dealing with such a serious and dangerous issue, some parts of it would almost be comical. Not the fact that people are being injured or killed but what the training itself entails.
Keep in mind that the hadith is not exactly as reliable as the koran in terms of religious authority. There have been those who have denied it outright, like say Qadaffi in Libya, and it is afterall part of the basis for Sharia law.
As for the whole punishment things...that was the whole point.
You said that beheadings were against islam. They obviously *aren't* in specific circumstances.
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