Expensive Stuff - the myths and facts

[GSTamral]

You know, I want to chime in here, just because this is a raging debate that has been around since basically the beginning of AOL time.

Myth: When so and so tells you they've been around 10 years, and never saw more than 5 million.
Fact: Either they were inactive for the first 4-5 years, or they're lying.

First you must consider the following. 10 years ago, when I finally quit IOK to check out gemstone (only accessable via Genie, or for IOK, also by compuserve's Genie connection, Late 1993), between my after school hours of 4-6, I would see an average of 15-20 people playing. When I did get the chance to play during an evening, or on a weekend, I never saw more than 40-50. Of every single one I still see, even the ones that were NOT wealthy at the time, they still have millions upon millions upon millions. The wealthier ones have billions many times over. Unless the body was purchased without equipment (in which case the buyer deserves none of the original wealth or respect), they are still absolutely loaded on the mere basis of what was available at the time and its relative value today.

Even most of the AOL generation (Sept 95- June 97) tend to be wealthy by mere association and packratting of things that have appreciated in value.

Myth: most of the most expensive stuff will be worthless in GS4
Fact: If anything, this will create a liquidity trap and hard stop for training that will make the best equipment even more valuable, serving as a primary and solitary method of getting an edge with the new training system.

The highest of the high end stuff, much of which will never again be made, will be worth MORE, not less. The loss of customers is what is causing this current burp in the market. Even though the number of accounts may not be decreasing, the ratio of accounts to paying customers is. It is that, and NOT the changes, that will in the end ultimately determine the prices on in game items. Further, if any measures of success are made in dissoluting the cash for items market, we may finally become a natural trade economy again, which will also serve to raise prices.


Myth: It is impossible to make the 1-2 million silver a day skinning that some people claim.
Fact: It is impossible to make the 1-2 million silver a day skinning that some people claim unless you are willing to spend 18 hour days in front of the monitor.

The best and most reliable method of making silver has and always will be the route of being a merchant, and buying and selling. When I retired Shalendris, and Later Tamaris From AOL, I started Tamral with virtually nothing, having only 500k or so which Jaelus had held onto for me. Over the course of the years, to be honest, I don't believe myself to have made (in net) more than 8 or 9 million in all of Tamrals years hunting. From empath tips to rezzing tips to deeds to other things, I view hunting similar to locksmithing. For myself at least, It's an at best break-even means to earn experience.

To those seeking to make silver, I would advise against any path involving mystery sales (you are advertising yourself as a scammer, in same line as types such as Gzinta and Khenan and even if you do sell 10 1 million notes, advertising 1-9, or 1-20 million, you still earn a dishonest reputation, and also I would advise to bargain hunt. One of the best sources of income occurs when some stupid idiot goes out, buys a character, and sells off the locker, in their own stupidity not realizing some of the things they are selling might look quite normal, but are old auction items or self chargers etc.. ,not to mention countless other bargains from people who need fast liquidations to pay off debts.

But the bottom line is, people who were actually present in those ancient times, even if they werent merchants, make out like bandits today, and those people who actually are willing to work and earn and learn how to make silver can without sitting at a screen 18 hours a day running a skinning script.

[Scott]

<<<Myth: It is impossible to make the 1-2 million silver a day skinning that some people claim.
Fact: It is impossible to make the 1-2 million silver a day skinning that some people claim unless you are willing to spend 18 hour days in front of the monitor.>>>

1m+ can be accomplished in 5 hours....

[GSTamral]

through merchanting sure, through skinning, I have yet to see such a place. The best place I remember of were the old firecat area where you could conceivably make 150k an hour.

[Scott]

Originally posted by GSTamral
through merchanting sure, through skinning, I have yet to see such a place. The best place I remember of were the old firecat area where you could conceivably make 150k an hour.

Through skinning, boxes, coin, gems etc. 1m, 5 hours, not selling a damn thing other then what you picked up from the critter.

[Xcalibur]

Originally posted by GSTamral
through merchanting sure, through skinning, I have yet to see such a place. The best place I remember of were the old firecat area where you could conceivably make 150k an hour.

Centaurs in sol gives 250k an hour, easily for someone that single in first aid.

Just cause you're lazy means you can't do it

[Soulpieced]

1m+ can be accomplished in 5 hours....

.

There are 18000 seconds in 5 hours. The minimum cast RT is 3 seconds, so we'll say you can kill at an absolute maximum, 6000 creatures in 5 hours. The creatures' skin would have to be worth 167 silvers apiece at that rate. But it is also not possible to have a non-stop stream of creatures. And the average kill is more likely at a maximum for a script hunter in a swarming area, 10 seconds per creature. That changes the numbers to 1800 creatures with skins averaging 555 silvers. That's a lot of creatures...

Conclusion: 1 mil in 5 hours of skinning = doubtful.

[Soulpieced]

Actually, I'm sure this could be proved wrong with creature generation, as I doubt ANY creature in game spawns 360 per hour.

[Soulpieced]

And if you have to go back to town to even go to the gemshop or wait 10 minutes to get boxes picked, the odds of it being possible seem much lower.

[Xcalibur]

Was doing 250k per hour on the lake, which means 1m for 4 hours

not through skining alone, but with gems, boxes and silvers, with a rogue.

Only skining sux, you get no exp, I'm sure 90% of cash hunter goes with monsters that have boxes, and for the form says they skin hunt


[Edited on 9-15-2003 by Xcalibur]

[Tsa`ah]

Let me first start out by saying I've been here since.... makes no difference. Last I checked, there wasn't a GSIII players union. Seniority means squat and time on the pot doesn’t really make an expert in the field of proctology.

Just because you have never been able to do it, does not mean it hasn't been done outside of merchanting.

Merely skinning? I would concur with that statement. I honestly don't know of any hunters that will pick up a skin yet leave behind medium pink pearl or a Selenthian blood jewel, do you?

I've outlined how it can be done, just because you have no desire to hunt in such a way does not negate that I have, and on occasion continue to pull in a few million in a gaming session.

Per one of a kind items; there really is no way of telling what their value will be until the GSIV goes live. There are plenty of items in game that once worked and have been gutted in the past years. Will these artifact items be worth squat in Warrior Stone? Only if they work.

[Straight-up]

I found it quite possible to make multiple millions in one night in the old firecat area. Depending on the area and how the treasure is running making 50-100k per hunt (10-15 minutes) is not hard. It all depends on how the area is genning treasure.

These areas are usually out of the way, with some difficulty involved. Vruul, Minotaurs, Plane 2 and 3 of the rift, OTF, Sheruvian Monestary (sometimes) are areas which all have produced phenomenal treasure. I admit it has gotten harder to cash hunt than it was before. Back in the day of e-strike/MD/catalyst you could flat clean up as an elemental caster if you could skin. Firecats/Warcats was insane. 600-700 silver per skin, and they came as fast or faster than you could kill them...

Tamral makes a point though that the fastest way is indeed to merchant.

Straight

[Daxia]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Merely skinning? I would concur with that statement. I honestly don't know of any hunters that will pick up a skin yet leave behind medium pink pearl or a Selenthian blood jewel, do you?

Callinar. He hunts the Lake in Solhaven. He only skins and leaves all gems and boxes.

You can make several hundred thousand just by following him around and picking up what he leaves behind.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Daxia
[quote]
Callinar. He hunts the Lake in Solhaven. He only skins and leaves all gems and boxes.

You can make several hundred thousand just by following him around and picking up what he leaves behind.

I've never discounted the possibility of making massive amounts of silver just from skinning. In fact, I've never hunted an area exclusively for skins, with the exception of the fire caves.

Folks like Callinar are probably the reason I'm so encumbered within 5 minutes of entering a hunting area.

[Adhara]

Alright I have tried the lake in solhaven tonight with a rogue. He ambushed the parts that didn't affect the skins and I skinned. We killed everything. The outcome was roughly 80k in skins and about 10k in coins and gems combined. Less than 100k for an hour, which again means 10 hours for 1 mil.

I have also tried myklians last week which yielded also less than 100k an hour.

I have tried firecats and fire rats and all those. Also less than 100k an hour.

So far I have seen nothing that beats lesser vruul. I make around 120k an hour. (8h/1mil) Still only worth the time and effort if you're totally desperate for cash.

[Solkern]

It's called sitting on your ass, at a table, Buying things cheap, selling them for a higher price...it beats all your little test shits

[Adhara]

Some of us don't enjoy merchanting.

Some of us enjoy testing.

Some of us do not demean other people's way of making money. ;)

[DCSL]

Argh, poor Callinar. He hasn't hunted in YEARS and then his player quit the game and sold him and now he's an idiot.

[Xcalibur]

Originally posted by Adhara
Alright I have tried the lake in solhaven tonight with a rogue. He ambushed the parts that didn't affect the skins and I skinned. We killed everything. The outcome was roughly 80k in skins and about 10k in coins and gems combined. Less than 100k for an hour, which again means 10 hours for 1 mil.

I have also tried myklians last week which yielded also less than 100k an hour.

I have tried firecats and fire rats and all those. Also less than 100k an hour.

So far I have seen nothing that beats lesser vruul. I make around 120k an hour. (8h/1mil) Still only worth the time and effort if you're totally desperate for cash.

part that doesn't affect skin? head? neck?

how many ranks in first aid and trade he had?

one hit kill, EVERY TIME?

script skining and getting the loot?
doesn't help much if the skining-searching-taking takes 10 seconds

you must have the maximum per minute, if you get 2 centaurs while i got 4, it's normal you make less

:bouncy:

[Adhara]

Depends. On prae'das (sp?) he aimed at the abdomen. On centaurs, cougars and fenghais, it was head or neck. One shot kill every time. I was skinning not him. My first aid is 344 (244 ranks). I had no scar nor injury and was using a dagger. I used macros to skin/search and pick up the skins.

[Xcalibur]

Originally posted by Adhara
Depends. On prae'das (sp?) he aimed at the abdomen. On centaurs, cougars and fenghais, it was head or neck. One shot kill every time. I was skinning not him. My first aid is 344 (244 ranks). I had no scar nor injury and was using a dagger. I used macros to skin/search and pick up the skins.

First mistake you made cuty is to focuse TIME (which is precious in cash hunting) with ALL beside centaurs

Centaurs = RICH in all aspects

Fengais, cougar and pra doesn't leave any chest, silvers, gem (maybe pra, not sure)

Focuse on centaurs, ignore all, even the roa'ters

the lake is what.. 15 blocks total?

Highlight centaurs in a particular color, and run fast until you see one, hide, kill, skin, search

That way you maximaze time



[Edited on 9-16-2003 by Xcalibur]

[Adhara]

I forgot to mention all skins were magnificent quality.

We killed everything because we were bored waiting for centaurs. Pra'edas and fenghais have treasure.

I got 1 violet sapphire, 1 white opal and a couple shells.

[Xcalibur]

Originally posted by Adhara
I forgot to mention all skins were magnificent quality.

We killed everything because we were bored waiting for centaurs. Pra'edas and fenghais have treasure.

I got 1 violet sapphire, 1 white opal and a couple shells.

if you were alone with him, you should get one centaur per "trip" of the lake

A trip is getting all over, as I called it
Making a trip take what... 3 seconds?

Just don't look at the surrounding :bouncy:

[Blazing247]

The first rule in making any argument believable- do not start it off with a lie. Come '95, you were wet behind the ears dying in the ratacombs. '93 my ass, and I can attest to that. Why do people insist on lying about their start date, as if it gives you some superiority over others in a debate?

[Edaarin]

What's so unbelievable about 93?

[Blazing247]

It may be difficult to fathom a time where everyone TRULY knew everyone else, but it did exist. Not saying it was better or worse, just saying that when nobody knows who you were, you stick out like a sore thumb. To put it into perspective, GEnie's total user database was maybe 80-90k, so you can imagine what that breaks down to for total GS players, and even further, to simultaneous GS players.

I'm not aiming this post at Tamral, I meant it more as a whole- if everyone who claims to have been around at that time actually were, there would have been a good deal more than the few dozen players that there were.

My point is, what does one get out of lying about their start date? It doesn't give any more validity to your argument, it doesn't make you a better person, and it doesn't put you on any pedestal...yet people do it daily. It's pretty easily dispelled by simple questions. I'll never lie about my start date. I rode in on the cusp of the DE-ICEing, which puts me squarely circa late '94.

If you started on AOL, you didn't start until late '95, unless you happened to become a beta tester, in which case you started early '95. Then came the other services, etc. At any rate, none of this matters, just be truthful.

[AnticorRifling]

I started Feb. 2000 and I train at a turtle's pace. Fear me!

[Straight-up]

I came in right after the De-ICEing. Early 95 right after it went to AOL (I guess). I remember most of the ice-metals were still available...I was pretty much clueless about good stuff. My drake falchion was hot-shit to me. I certainly do remember the differences though. Much fewer people online, lots of crashes with everyone running to the chatroom.

Elders just flat did not put up with bullshit from people either. You ask for a bless more than one time in TSSW and you likely were getting silenced or stunned. God help you if you recited. But at the same time there was much less random bullying and crap you see today.

Robofogging was just not done. Your ass got dragged most of the time, or field-raised. Robohealing wasn't bad either. The first real bad script healer I remember was Banauge...and he got busted hard for it.

Making money on merchants was alot easier then too. They actually sold decent powerful shit instead of scripted fluff.

Anyway...a few recollections from a sort of old timer, but far from an ICE-ager.


Straight

[Dighn Darkbeam]

I believe I have been around since the late 90's. The only problem is I never paid attention to anything going on around me, talked to anyone, or collected anything. I would sure love to brag about how I have been around since such and such a time, but the quality of my characters were such crap that if mentioned it would only hurt my image.

(Town Sqaure)

Look on bench

You see a drake falchion!

I also believed that weapon was tops for years.

Point is alot of people have been around for a good amount of time...They just dont remember any of it.

Kris na Su'ta

[Snapp]

Drake falchion were the best back then! Even though I trained in almost all weapon types (and was an empath!).

[GSTamral]

<<<
The first rule in making any argument believable- do not start it off with a lie. Come '95, you were wet behind the ears dying in the ratacombs. '93 my ass, and I can attest to that. Why do people insist on lying about their start date, as if it gives you some superiority over others in a debate?
>>>


Interesting, but I must point the following out. I was not here in 95 during the AOL times. In fact, after my first venture into the game ended when my parents cancelled the compuserve accounts, I did not return until early 1996, and none of my characters have ever hunted in the catacombs, having all been warriors who have started their careers in hobgoblins and leapers.

While I was not an avid gemstoner playing 4-5 hours per day as some did, during summer 1993 onward, I was certainly part of the game, having gotten the information on the game from a fellow player who talked to me often in the role-playing forum, and who also played IOK with me.

I also never stated to have acheived any wealth during this time, and that my first real experience with being a merchant did not happen until march or so of 1996. What I did say, is that all of those I recognize still here from that time are among the wealther people I know.

If you choose not to believe me, feel free, many older players are quite contrived and deontological in their defensive reasoning about others not being there. The whole point of my post is that all of those I remember from those times who had any name and continued to play have attained quite a large degree of wealth through the naturalization of their skills and items available from the time in comparison to people who started the game after it went to the web.

And as to your claims of a player database of 80-90, it would starkly raise a doubt about your claims as such as well. The player base in 1993 was quite a bit larger than that, AND IT WAS ADVERTISED ON GENIE FOR GEMSTONE THAT IT WAS OVER 100 MEMBERS AND GROWING. But you should have known that, having been around since then, especially since you know everyone who was there at the time, and can attest to everyone else's claims as lies. In fact, you would have also known that many people who started playing gemstone were those who left IOK due to all the connection problems and issues with their compuserv access forum.

But you knew all that of course. That 80-90 thing was just some number you threw around to limit yourself to those people you actually claim to know weren't wet behind the ears in the catacombs. Because I mean, well god forbid, with almost 50 simultaneous players in IOK during afterschool hours in 93, that would conflict with that 80-90 bullshit you just spat out. In fact, the IOK forum on compuserve had literally hundreds of handles posting messages left and right every month. There were even nice old Borland Office character pages, to scribe your character much like was done with AD&D.

That being said, believe what you want, but don't bullshit about genie, because I was actually a part of it, long before I was a part of gemstone.

Oh, and before you respond, I believe it is in a copy of the old Elanthian Times, but in december 1993, the first published sets of fame lists clearly list more than the 80-90 TOTAL GEnie customers you claim. Why don't you get your facts straight before you bring your argument back to the table.


Tamral aka 72212,2154 (I'd seriously doubt if you even knew what those numbers mean)

[CrystalTears]

The point is Tamral, even if you helped with the creation of the game, hearing people mention when they started playing a game gets really old. No one cares and all it does is show this superiority complex and negates any validity your post may have had. People get really tired of hearing the "I've been here X years..." claims because it proves nothing other than you've spent more time and money than the rest of us. It doesn't make you more knowledgeable. If you knew what you were talking about, your post would reflect that without having to include your longevity with an online game.

[Edited on 9/17/2003 by CrystalTears]

[StrayRogue]

Agreed. I hate the "I been here forever, therefore I am better and mean more to the game than you and my opinion is therefore more worthwhile than yours". Jim, Celtar wins this award.

[Soulpieced]

claims because it proves nothing other than you've spent more time and money than the rest of us.

.

I think he was trying to prove that whomever it was that claimed to be here for 10 years in fact wasn't. I too am one to get extrememly irritated at the people (idiots) who think they've been playing longer than they have. He was merely venting it in a way that if you really HAVE been around since the ICE age, then there are incredibly slim odds that you are in fact that poor. Because I'm sure most everyone who spent even a few months in the ICE age would have double digit millions worth of gear. Even the ones who weren't considered wealthy.

[Blazing247]

<And as to your claims of a player database of 80-90, it would starkly raise a doubt about your claims as such as well. The player base in 1993 was quite a bit larger than that, AND IT WAS ADVERTISED ON GENIE FOR GEMSTONE THAT IT WAS OVER 100 MEMBERS AND GROWING. But you should have known that, having been around since then, especially since you know everyone who was there at the time, and can attest to everyone else's claims as lies.>

Tamral, do read more carefully. This is what I said. I can't make it any more plain.

<To put it into perspective, GEnie's total user database was maybe 80-90k, so you can imagine what that breaks down to for total GS players, and even further, to simultaneous GS players. >

I'm not sure where you have your wires crossed, but it isn't my fault you've failed reading comprehension. When you finally understand what I'm talking about, we'll debate further.

As to your original point about "old wealth", you are quite right and I wasn't debating that point. Arcane lockers possess perhaps the largest collection of wealth in the game.

[GSTamral]

Blazing, that you have chosen to make a personal issue of me, even though you claim not to, completely sidestepping the issue I was originally talking about, that's your problem.

I did not get defensive about particulars who claim they've been here so long, you're the one who took issue with me, and made it a personal vendetta with claims about my playing habits, of which you know none. And if you want to claim GEnie had a user database of 80,000 people, you are even stupider than I thought. They only had 7 games in 1994. None of the games had memberships above 1,000, and I would say that IOK, by far their biggest game of the time, was probably right around that number.

Care to rehash? You took issue with me, so I AM going to take it back to you. Because at this stage, I am calling bullshit on you. Either you werent around back then, or you knew nothing of the system.

As to your arcane lockers issue, thats moot. Geoff and I have been friends for years, and I would actually venture that between himself, Kerl, Arwen, and many of the other members of Arcane, of the older generation (AOL and prior) they would not be amongst the very wealthiest, as Brigatta would have them by a clean mile from the Panashe giveaway days. But you already knew that too, right?

Originally posted by Adhara
Alright I have tried the lake in solhaven tonight with a rogue. He ambushed the parts that didn't affect the skins and I skinned. We killed everything. The outcome was roughly 80k in skins and about 10k in coins and gems combined. Less than 100k for an hour, which again means 10 hours for 1 mil.

I have also tried myklians last week which yielded also less than 100k an hour.

I have tried firecats and fire rats and all those. Also less than 100k an hour.

So far I have seen nothing that beats lesser vruul. I make around 120k an hour. (8h/1mil) Still only worth the time and effort if you're totally desperate for cash.

As a caster i used to make at least 300k a hunt there and frankly my attention span lasts about 30-45 minutes tops.

Shan are really good too, but you'll get weighed down in boxes long before those skins start piling up.

[Methais]

<<Myth: It is impossible to make the 1-2 million silver a day skinning that some people claim.
Fact: It is impossible to make the 1-2 million silver a day skinning that some people claim unless you are willing to spend 18 hour days in front of the monitor.>>

Uh, that's bullshit Tamral. I can usually pull in 300-400k an hour from skinning at the lake. Whether or not I pick up boxes and gems, it seems to come out about the same usually. Granted I'm up there using rapid fire (since my bolt spells are too weak for a one shot kill even with a 630 AS, and the good version of e-strike is LONG gone), but even when I didn't I pulled in only slightly less per hour, and since I'm using bolts, I'll have my share of devalued skins due to injuries of the critter in the wrong place.

It's not just about the skin value though, it's about the skin value compared to the gen rate of that area and how fast you can kill. Don't bother skinning fenghai if you hunt the lake, their skins suck and are a waste of space in your containers.

Too bad Myklians don't swarm...would easily make like 2m an hour if they did, probably more.

Or even better would be if the GMs gave Pinefar blue gems back their original values (1-3k each). Too bad it'll never happen. They changed it back to that one time for about 2 days, then devalued them yet again. Bah.

[Edited on 9-18-2003 by Methais]

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Methais
<<Myth: It is impossible to make the 1-2 million silver a day skinning that some people claim.
Fact: It is impossible to make the 1-2 million silver a day skinning that some people claim unless you are willing to spend 18 hour days in front of the monitor.>>

Uh, that's bullshit Tamral. I can usually pull in 300-400k an hour from skinning.

It's not just about the skin value, it's about the skin value compared to the gen rate of that area.

Too bad Myklians don't swarm...would make like 2m an hour if they did, at least.

As Methais said, bullshit Tamral. You must have been about for years *nods*. Buy a high lvl wizard, get a script and go power-hunting. Easy.

[Methais]

Heh, I hope that wasn't supposed to be a crack at me, since I'm not bought and don't script hunt. Watching the screen just scroll by without doing anything is too boring.

[StrayRogue]

Oh not you Methais ;) Mainly Dovezcry, Tsin's capped wizard and Edge (he was even advertised a uber hunting script with the deal). You are one of the few mega wizards I actually respect Methais ;)


Lend me money :D

[Methais]

Edge sold out? I know he talked about it for years but didn't know he actually did it. I haven't seen Dovezkry around since she sold out either, where's she usually found now?

<<You are one of the few mega wizards I actually respect Methais>>

Thanks.


<<Lend me money>>

I knew there was a catch to that statement! :P

[Edited on 9-18-2003 by Methais]

[StrayRogue]

He is on this very board. I shall go find the link now. As for Dove, I have seen her following around some peonic rich kid a few times.

[StrayRogue]

http://forum.gsplayers.com/viewthread.php?tid=563

He was on ebay as well. Dunno if he did sell out. The way he moans on however...we can all hope.

[Soulpieced]

He is on this very board. I shall go find the link now. As for Dove, I have seen her following around some peonic rich kid a few times.

.

Soulpieced's influence knows no bounds.