TheVerge Lootbox Article

[Pereus]

Interesting read, basically follows up on the ongoing FTC investigation of lootbox mechanics (like Duskuin).

https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/19/18226852/loot-boxes-gaming-regulation-gambling-free-to-play

Remind anyone of some players?



A month ago, a woman known online as CadenceLikesVGs realized she had a gambling problem. She wasn’t playing blackjack or pulling slot machine levers; she was opening video game loot boxes.

“I can’t do this anymore. It is a problem,” Cadence, who wished to remain anonymous, wrote in a Reddit post last month. “But I can’t spend money on PoE, because I know that it’s a slippery slope that won’t stop until I spent everything.”

“Because my brain is fucked up.”

“When your brain works like mine, you can’t stop,” Cadence said. “There is always the little voice of the back of your head that goes ‘Yeah no man, you should’ve quit like 30 boxes ago,’ but even when you’re telling yourself to stop, you’re still clicking buy, and you’re still opening boxes.”

[Roiken]

I'm kinda eh... about it.. maybe here mostly because it is still a super optional thing.

I do think it's cool that the company respected her wishes to ban herself from continuing to participate though... and I guess recognizing it was a problem for her.

[Taernath]

It's optional in PoE, too.

[drauz]

Duskruin isn't lootbox though. You get a set currency that you can purchase things with, most of the items are pretty set and can be expected to be there.

Basically every other cash event was (DM, DR dig) though but it seems like they are moving away from those.

[Stumplicker]

Optional, yes, but with each success many companies get more bold and brazen. I was reminded in another thread earlier today about my experience with MLB 18 from EA. This is a $60 game. The single player version promotes both loot boxes and direct purchases of stat points. These are ostensibly optional.

However, again, in the single player, offline version of this game they have tweaked the progression so slow that you have to either invest way beyond a reasonable amount of game time to achieve a reasonable level of progression, or invest in lootboxes. On a AAA priced single player experience. That's a free to play model and a paid model all rolled into one.

It's getting out of control.

[Candor]

Remind anyone of some players?

I don't what you are talking about, not even a little bit.

dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig
dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig
dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig
dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig
dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig
dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig
dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig
dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig
dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig
dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig
dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig
dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig
dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig
dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig
dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig
dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig
dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig
dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig

(heh, good thing shovels don't cost real money...)

[Taernath]

Duskruin isn't lootbox though. You get a set currency that you can purchase things with, most of the items are pretty set and can be expected to be there.

Basically every other cash event was (DM, DR dig) though but it seems like they are moving away from those.

I see DR as a slot machine. You buy a ticket, spin the wheel, and get some scrip and/or an item (which may or may not be decent). It's gambling.

[Stumplicker]

Digging's only a buck! You can get a 20 minute phone call for a buck! Somebody should write a script to convert digging sessions into 20 minute phone calls and tell you how many minutes of phone calls you could've had instead.

[Candor]

Digging's only a buck! You can get a 20 minute phone call for a buck! Somebody should write a script to convert digging sessions into 20 minute phone calls and tell you how many minutes of phone calls you could've had instead.

Digging costs game silvers (unless things have changed recently...). Am I out-of-date again?

[Stumplicker]

Digging costs game silvers.

Whoever. I was thinking about sewer digging.

Anyway, the point is we're like the frog in the boiling pot (and yes, I know that's been debunked). Remember back in 2006 when they added $5 horse armor to Oblivion and everybody flipped their shit because they paid $60 for their single player experience and now you want to charge $5 for cosmetic horse armor on top? That's the standard now. It happened so slowly that nobody really took notice. Something's gotta give.

[Taernath]

they paid $60 for their single player experience and now you want to charge $5 for cosmetic horse armor on top?

It actually gave your horse slightly more HP, IIRC.

[Stumplicker]

It actually gave your horse slightly more HP, IIRC.

Horses sucked in Oblivion anyway. Why horse across the world when you can train your jump hard enough that you can jump from one town to the next? There's only one method of travel I would choose over that, and it is to ride ze shoopuf.

[drauz]

I see DR as a slot machine. You buy a ticket, spin the wheel, and get some scrip and/or an item (which may or may not be decent). It's gambling.

Its more like skeeball to me. You play the game (many people able to know exactly how many tickets they'll get), you get tickets, and then buy a prize from the wall. Agree to disagree.

[Wrathbringer]

Digging costs game silvers (unless things have changed recently...). Am I out-of-date again?

No, but you're retard red again. :lol:

[Taernath]

Its more like skeeball to me. You play the game (many people able to know exactly how many tickets they'll get), you get tickets, and then buy a prize from the wall. Agree to disagree.

Disagree to agree to disagree.

Digging/sewers/whatever is attached to the prize hopper, including some things that can only be found doing those activities. People were playing all day hoping for a golvern segment, for example. It's 100% gambling.

[Tgo01]

Yeah the skeeball analogy would be more like DR arena because you play the game, get tickets (scrip), then use the tickets to buy a prize you want.

Digging and sewers has items that can only be found doing digging and sewers, with no guarantee you'll get the item you want.

[Pereus]

Its more like skeeball to me. You play the game (many people able to know exactly how many tickets they'll get), you get tickets, and then buy a prize from the wall. Agree to disagree.

Gambling is pretty clearly defined. For Duskruin, you pay real dollars for a chance to win bloodscrip. Consideration, chance, prize. All pretty clearly laid out.

Your argument would be that bloodscrip isn't technically worth real life dollars but that is pretty easily debunked per the second hand market and the fact the Simu sells in game items to advance character development via that currency. Same as the other games. Only thing is, they are also collecting monthly subscriptions, and charging for other items through the simucoin store as well, so it's not even F2P with the gambling aspect, they are charging all across the spectrum.

[drauz]

Disagree to agree to disagree.

Digging/sewers/whatever is attached to the prize hopper, including some things that can only be found doing those activities. People were playing all day hoping for a golvern segment, for example. It's 100% gambling.

I forgot people do the sewers, I never did except once or twice. My analogy is specifically for the arena.

[Taernath]

Yeah the skeeball analogy would be more like DR arena because you play the game, get tickets (scrip), then use the tickets to buy a prize you want.

Digging and sewers has items that can only be found doing digging and sewers, with no guarantee you'll get the item you want.

Weren't invites tied to arena at one point? A perfect run increased your chances of winning one.

[Tgo01]

Weren't invites tied to arena at one point? A perfect run increased your chances of winning one.

Not sure but nothing Simu does surprises me anymore so I could see it.

[Tgo01]

The weird thing is the way WoW has handles their holiday events has changed to a better model than Simu has over the years. While the WoW events never cost money (other than the monthly subscription cost) almost all of the items you wanted were just complete random chance. While there are still some rare items with only a random chance to get them, most of the prizes have been setup so you can buy them with currency you can grind out by doing dailies or other quests during the holidays. Simu seems to be going the other way with all of these random chance games that cost real money to begin with.

Also I'm bored with WoW again :/

I got back into it for like a month leveling up alts but even that's boring now.

Now I've been getting back into Overwatch, which has lootboxes you can buy but shit I've got almost everything unlocked just by finding shit at random in the free lootboxes or buying them with the credits you get from free lootboxes.

[Astray]

It's literally an arcade. Tokens to play the games and tickets that you trade for shit. Every so often you get lucky and you RNG something worthwhile but inevitably what you're doing is gambling.

[LaVerdad]

The weird thing is the way WoW has handles their holiday events has changed to a better model than Simu has over the years. While the WoW events never cost money (other than the monthly subscription cost) almost all of the items you wanted were just complete random chance. While there are still some rare items with only a random chance to get them, most of the prizes have been setup so you can buy them with currency you can grind out by doing dailies or other quests during the holidays. Simu seems to be going the other way with all of these random chance games that cost real money to begin with.

Also I'm bored with WoW again :/

I got back into it for like a month leveling up alts but even that's boring now.

Now I've been getting back into Overwatch, which has lootboxes you can buy but shit I've got almost everything unlocked just by finding shit at random in the free lootboxes or buying them with the credits you get from free lootboxes.

I bought the last expansion of WoW around August I think last year, and canceled my account (which I was paying 6 months at a time for) before it ever was launched. Like GS did for me years and years ago, the sense of community died. I stopped really caring about WoW when they started doing the raids you could join for insta loot and killed casual guilds.

I do miss it from time to time, but every time I've gone back in, it's just a bunch of trolls in general chat, and guilds are virtually non-existent any more.

[Tgo01]

I bought the last expansion of WoW around August I think last year, and canceled my account (which I was paying 6 months at a time for) before it ever was launched. Like GS did for me years and years ago, the sense of community died. I stopped really caring about WoW when they started doing the raids you could join for insta loot and killed casual guilds.

I do miss it from time to time, but every time I've gone back in, it's just a bunch of trolls in general chat, and guilds are virtually non-existent any more.

Yeah the sense of community being dead is probably what disappointed me the most about returning to WoW. Being in a guild back in the day used to be a big deal, making friends, chatting, looking for people to group with. I like the fact they made dungeons and raids more accessible but a guild seems almost useless these days, I'm in 4 different guilds between characters and there are only a couple of hours a day when there are even more than 5 people on any of them, the only time there is more is for a raid night. Other than that the guild is mostly offline and even when people are on no one is talking.

[Astray]

When I think of some people that have dozens of accounts just closing them all in a day would result in some form of action. If not an outright statement on the 'state of the game'.

[Taernath]

Great post,Thanks for providing us this great knowledge,Keep it up.
Potty Racers 3

@wrathbringer

[Wrathbringer]

@wrathbringer

:lol:

[Methais]

Interesting read, basically follows up on the ongoing FTC investigation of lootbox mechanics (like Duskuin).

https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/19/18226852/loot-boxes-gaming-regulation-gambling-free-to-play

Remind anyone of some players?

That was probably Beldannon.

[Methais]

The weird thing is the way WoW has handles their holiday events has changed to a better model than Simu has over the years. While the WoW events never cost money (other than the monthly subscription cost) almost all of the items you wanted were just complete random chance. While there are still some rare items with only a random chance to get them, most of the prizes have been setup so you can buy them with currency you can grind out by doing dailies or other quests during the holidays. Simu seems to be going the other way with all of these random chance games that cost real money to begin with.

Also I'm bored with WoW again :/

I got back into it for like a month leveling up alts but even that's boring now.

Now I've been getting back into Overwatch, which has lootboxes you can buy but shit I've got almost everything unlocked just by finding shit at random in the free lootboxes or buying them with the credits you get from free lootboxes.

You should check out Paladins. It's pretty similar to Overwatch, but with more variety in its 40 classes. And it's F2P with all the characters being unlockable via in game currency that you earn just from playing. Or you can pay $30 to unlock them all and any future characters that come out.

Graphics aren't quite as polished as OW but it still looks pretty good and I've been having assloads of fun with it lately. Jumped on Overwatch for a couple matches after and was like meh.

[Methais]

It's literally an arcade. Tokens to play the games and tickets that you trade for shit. Every so often you get lucky and you RNG something worthwhile but inevitably what you're doing is gambling.

I wouldn't consider converting cash to tickets to buy something as gambling. Otherwise every arcade would be 21+ to enter. Most "ticket" games in an arcade, like skee ball or even DR Arena in P2Wstone, are considered skill based as opposed to luck based, and I'm pretty sure being skill based disqualifies it from being labeled as gambling.

DR dig and shit like that though is totally gambling as they're completely luck/RNG based.

[Ososis]

I wouldn't consider converting cash to tickets to buy something as gambling. Otherwise every arcade would be 21+ to enter. Most "ticket" games in an arcade, like skee ball or even DR Arena in P2Wstone, are considered skill based as opposed to luck based, and I'm pretty sure being skill based disqualifies it from being labeled as gambling.

Eh, maybe you could have argued "skill" a year ago but not anymore. It used to take effort to succeed. Now...shit what was the hustle? An army of level 19 F2Ps getting max BS in 14 seconds? I threw my junk mule into the area for shits and giggles. 2.5k entries later and and he has a 96% perfect rating. Now it's not about skills or ability or anything beyond showing up and putting in the time (and not picking obviously stupid, mechanically destructive RP choices like "being a ranger")

[Methais]

Eh, maybe you could have argued "skill" a year ago but not anymore. It used to take effort to succeed. Now...shit what was the hustle? An army of level 19 F2Ps getting max BS in 14 seconds? I threw my junk mule into the area for shits and giggles. 2.5k entries later and and he has a 96% perfect rating. Now it's not about skills or ability or anything beyond showing up and putting in the time (and not picking obviously stupid, mechanically destructive RP choices like "being a ranger")

I mean "skill" as in you have control over the outcome as opposed to just relying on blind luck like with a slot machine. Which is also why DR Dig is gambling. The fact that Arena is even easier now and takes pretty much no effort like you said just reinforces my point.

[Mobius1]

What is really sad, is all the Simu worshipers who defend this crap, like the game is getting better because of it. (Sure, some improvements have come from it, like certain things being more available. But I'd say we've taken 1 step forward and 2 steps back.).

Meanwhile, dev outside this pay to win crap has plummeted compared to how it used to be.

For all the profits they are making, we should have bloody GSV by now!!

Honestly, though only certain aspects of the pay events are RNG, it's actually WORSE than most lootboxes in other games, because you are getting items and bonuses that give your character an advantage that is unobtainable through other means. And some skills, like ranged/thrown, are literally broken unless you get through the paywall, and are fortunate enough to get one of the limited available items.

And man, when I hear the kind of money people throw down on these pay events...I just can't even understand it. Have we really come to a point where some virtual item is worth thousands of dollars? So crazy....

[Astray]

like skee ball

Skeeball is bullshit.

[Methais]

What is really sad, is all the Simu worshipers who defend this crap, like the game is getting better because of it. (Sure, some improvements have come from it, like certain things being more available. But I'd say we've taken 1 step forward and 2 steps back.).

Meanwhile, dev outside this pay to win crap has plummeted compared to how it used to be.

For all the profits they are making, we should have bloody GSV by now!!

Honestly, though only certain aspects of the pay events are RNG, it's actually WORSE than most lootboxes in other games, because you are getting items and bonuses that give your character an advantage that is unobtainable through other means. And some skills, like ranged/thrown, are literally broken unless you get through the paywall, and are fortunate enough to get one of the limited available items.

And man, when I hear the kind of money people throw down on these pay events...I just can't even understand it. Have we really come to a point where some virtual item is worth thousands of dollars? So crazy....

Mental illness + crazy/disability/social security checks = Simucoins


Skeeball is bullshit.

Skeeball rules. Know what else rules? VR skeeball!