Legal Tender for All Debts, Public and Private

[ClydeR]

Your paper money says, "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private." But some businesses don't want your physical money. They only want your virtual money, which you pay with credit and debit cards. It is a trend that is growing increasingly popular in restaurants. Printing something on money doesn't make it the law. But still. Should it be legal for businesses to refuse to accept cash?


A New York City council member is proposing that the city outlaw businesses that don’t accept cash, the Associated Press reports.

Democratic City Councilman Ritchie Torres represents a part of the Bronx where one in four households have no bank account, the NY Daily News said. Citywide, hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers lack a credit or debit card.

More... (https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/more-lawmakers-looking-into-banning-cashless-restaurants)

The article says a number of other cities are considering bans on businesses that refuse cash. So far, only the State of Massachusetts requires businesses to accept cash. That has been the law in Massachusetts since 1978.


The greenback, of course, remains “legal tender for all debts, public and private”—it says so right there on the bills in your wallet, if you still carry any. But until you’ve made a deal with someone, you don’t have any debt. Courts have sided again and again with merchants who refuse coins or currency “on a reasonable basis,” a Treasury spokesperson explained, “such as when doing so increases efficiency, prevents incompatibility problems with the equipment employed to accept or count the money, or improves security.” That’s why an ice-cream shop can refuse to take $100 bills or why a transit agency can direct bus drivers only to accept coins for fares.

More... (https://slate.com/business/2018/07/cashless-stores-and-restaurants-are-on-the-rise-to-the-delight-of-credit-card-companies.html)

Could this become an issue in the 2020 presidential election? It's certainly possible. Considering how many candidates there are likely to be, they will be looking for something that will catch the public attention.

At a minimum, the law should require a prominent sign in such businesses so that you will know before entering or ordering. Otherwise, this could happen..


A woman recounted her recent experience at a hair salon to the Wall Street Journal:


Sam Schreiber was mid-shampoo at a Drybar blow-dry salon in Los Angeles when someone from the front desk approached her stylist with an emergency: a woman was trying to pay for her blow-out with cash.

“There was this beat of silence,” says Ms. Schreiber, 33 years old. “She literally brought $40.”

More... (https://www.redstate.com/elizabeth-vaughn/2018/12/30/looks-like-cash-no-longer-king/)

[Gelston]

It is legal for debts. A tow company can't refuse your legal currency. A store selling something can (and should be able to) though, because you don't owe them a debt.

[audioserf]

Tricky. I want to say that businesses should be allowed to do what they want to do, but there's an access/entry barrier for non-cash payment in some cases. Gam gam is probably never going to be able to use ApplePay, should she be blocked from shopping at certain stores? Debit cards are a bit more obtainable, but if someone doesn't have a bank account should they be blocked from buying something at the 711? Seems weird. I don't know why you'd want to turn customers away just because they want to use cash.

[Gelston]

Tricky. I want to say that businesses should be allowed to do what they want to do, but there's an access/entry barrier for non-cash payment in some cases. Gam gam is probably never going to be able to use ApplePay, should she be blocked from shopping at certain stores? Debit cards are a bit more obtainable, but if someone doesn't have a bank account should they be blocked from buying something at the 711? Seems weird. I don't know why you'd want to turn customers away just because they want to use cash.

I think it is dumb because it actually costs the stores money to accept cards. Sure, they just add it to the price, but whatever.

[Stumplicker]

It's a fine line, and a tough decision. At some point, it's probably all going virtual, but paper money is free to use. There are fees involved with debit and credit cards, both for the person using them and the store accepting them. In the cities where this is becoming an issue, getting a bank account or debit card are not really problems. You can open a checking account in New York or New Jersey for a $5 minimum balance.

Personally I get annoyed when people try to give me cash or when they don't accept credit/debit, and I'm now in a more rural area. That means I have to take a trip to a bank to deposit money (which is 25 minutes away). In the city if somebody hands me cash I can just deposit it into my account at an ATM. Nobody would hand me cash though. I have my debit cards. I have credit cards. I can charge it to my phone. To my paypal. Cash is the bottom of the list, and most city dwellers have about that same hierarchy.

But money is money, and paper currency still exists. Until it no longer exists, people are going to want to use it. I'd say, yeah, fine, feel free to not accept cash. It's your business. But require that it be prominently displayed on entry that you don't. You're just going to run into problems any other way.

[Astray]

But some businesses don't want your physical money.

This is a dumb decision.

[Gelston]

This is a dumb decision.

Makes sense for some things, tbh. Places where you don't want employees to have to worry about cash, like the roving vendors at sporting events and stuff.

[Stumplicker]

Makes sense for some things, tbh. Places where you don't want employees to have to worry about cash, like the roving vendors at sporting events and stuff.

Or places with high prevalence of counterfeit currency or robbery. "We don't have any money here" is a pretty strong deterrent to being held up. 7-11's been using a kind of slowdown system for years. They have no more than X dollars in the register, and while they do have more in the store, the employee has to press a button to dispense money, and it won't dispense more than X dollars per minute. So if you want a significant amount, you've got to wait for the employee at the safe to press the button for an hour to get out more than a couple hundred bucks.

[Gelston]

Most airlines don't accept cash on their inflight services anymore either.

[Gelston]

Some places it's the exact opposite. Like for gas if you pay in cash they give you a discount of a few cents. Cash is better for certain businesses.

Cash is generally better for all businesses. There is no fee to the business to take cash. There are just a few instances where cards are better.

[Stumplicker]

It would be nice to see some form of governmental acknowledgement and standardization if virtual is the way things are going. I'm sure even dealing with fees in agreements with banks to make some sort of federal debit, it'd be a savings over printing so much physical currency.

You've got to make paying digitally free for the consumer though and easily available before it can really take hold. If you take away the free way to pay, it's just allowing banks or businesses to nickel and dime you more, and I don't think anybody is for that idea.

As an example, the Casino in town here has an ATM. That ATM charges your normal bank fee, plus a flat $25.00, yes, $25.00 fee to make a withdraw, plus another fee if the ATM is sponsored by a bank that isn't yours. If you withdraw $20 at their ATM it costs you roughly $49. You also have the option of buying chips with a credit card at the window. That fee is only your normal card fee, plus 10%. So your options are...leave, get money elsewhere and come back, or pay enormous fees.

If you take the free options away, it opens the door for more predatory practices like that.

[Gelston]

It would be nice to see some form of governmental acknowledgement and standardization if virtual is the way things are going. I'm sure even dealing with fees in agreements with banks to make some sort of federal debit, it'd be a savings over printing so much physical currency.

You've got to make paying digitally free for the consumer though and easily available before it can really take hold. If you take away the free way to pay, it's just allowing banks or businesses to nickel and dime you more, and I don't think anybody is for that idea.

As an example, the Casino in town here has an ATM. That ATM charges your normal bank fee, plus a flat $25.00, yes, $25.00 fee to make a withdraw, plus another fee if the ATM is sponsored by a bank that isn't yours. If you withdraw $20 at their ATM it costs you roughly $49. You also have the option of buying chips with a credit card at the window. That fee is only your normal card fee, plus 10%. So your options are...leave, get money elsewhere and come back, or pay enormous fees.

If you take the free options away, it opens the door for more predatory practices like that.

ATMs that charge that much here are in strip clubs.

[Astray]

I get it. I just really really hate to think that one day I'm going to have to explain that no, all I have on me is cash.

Anxiety of that.


ATMs that charge that much here are in strip clubs.

Oh, put the wrong pin in. Charged a fee for declining. The theft prevention on that.

[Gelston]

I get it. I just really really hate to think that one day I'm going to have to explain that no, all I have on me is cash.

Anxiety of that.




I've had that happen on a plane before. They used to be cash only, and then switched to card only.

[Stumplicker]

ATMs that charge that much here are in strip clubs.

Ugh. I bet they have one of those machines that dispenses singles from larger denominations that has its own fee too! That's why all I bring with me to the strip club is a bag of nickels and a can-do attitude!

[Parkbandit]

Cash is generally better for all businesses. There is no fee to the business to take cash. There are just a few instances where cards are better.

The only problem with cash is having to safeguard that your employees aren't stealing from you.

[Gelston]

The only problem with cash is having to safeguard that your employees aren't stealing from you.

Yeah, but that is why you have security cameras and inventory systems, and close out after every shift.

[Parkbandit]

Yeah, but that is why you have security cameras and inventory systems, and close out after every shift.

Yup... which costs money... money you do not necessarily have to invest if you are on a credit card only system.

So there is a "fee" for a business to take cash.

[Gelston]

Yup... which costs money... money you do not necessarily have to invest if you are on a credit card only system.

So there is a "fee" for a business to take cash.

Eh, you still want that stuff anyways. A digital inventory system is still pretty important to have. Theft of goods happens.

[kutter]

I am a bit of a throw back I guess, I still carry a couple of hundred bucks around with me, just feels weird to not have cash on me. And there are places down here in Louisiana that do not even take plastic, only cash. Mostly Mom and Pop family style business' that I suspect might not be reporting everything to uncle sam. That is the real reason the government may force it, because you cannot hide electronic business but you can hide cash business.

[~Rocktar~]

I am a bit of a throw back I guess, I still carry a couple of hundred bucks around with me, just feels weird to not have cash on me. And there are places down here in Louisiana that do not even take plastic, only cash. Mostly Mom and Pop family style business' that I suspect might not be reporting everything to uncle sam. That is the real reason the government may force it, because you cannot hide electronic business but you can hide cash business.

This^^

India is trying to do away with cash to reduce corruption and illegal trade. It's not working well for them since there are several major currencies in circulation in India that are not Indian and people take them all the time.

[Fortybox]

This^^

India is trying to do away with cash to reduce corruption and illegal trade. It's not working well for them since there are several major currencies in circulation in India that are not Indian and people take them all the time.

Wyrom hopes the new digital currency will be bloodscrip.