Wyrom confirmed, GM's are listening and monitoring lnet

[Luntz]

I was pulled in between duskruin runs a few minutes ago for this interaction between Wyrom and myself, as you can see lnet is not off limits and GM's are indeed watching.

________________________________________

Zaoloo just appeared.
You feel yourself being pulled away...
[Consultation Lounge]
The cozy surroundings of this simple conference room provide a much-welcomed respite from the chaos just outside its walls. You notice several plush chairs arranged casually around the room in a comfortable grouping.
Obvious exits: none
>say hellooo
You say, "Hellooo."
>
The scent of death and decay wafts by as GameMaster Wyrom shambles in.
>
Wyrom smiles.
>stare
You stare at nothing in particular.
>
Wyrom says, "Hey there."
>say what did I do!
You exclaim, "What did I do!"
>cack
You cackle!
>say was it the potion
You say, "Was it the potion."
>smirk
You smirk behind your pale flaxen half-mask, but no one can see it.
>stare
You stare at nothing in particular.
>
Wyrom says, "Well, we're getting a lot of complaints about the language on lnet. We don't police lnet, but it can fall under POLICY 3 if people feel attacked."
>say really...
You say, "Really..."
>;tune lnet
>;chat lmao Wyrom says, "Well, we're getting a lot of complaints about the language on lnet. We don't police lnet, but it can fall under POLICY 3 if people feel attacked."
>say alright well I guess I'll just not talk to anyone anymore
You say, "Alright well I guess I'll just not talk to anyone anymore."
>
Wyrom says, "We've had a few people send in logs."
>say cool to know
You say, "Cool to know."
>say yea cause those can't be changed
You say, "Yea cause those can't be changed."
>
Wyrom says, "Well I was able to confirm them."
>say people paste fake things i don't say on lnet constantly
You say, "People paste fake things i don't say on lnet constantly."
>shrug
You shrug.
>say yea I say dumb stuff on lnet, its not in game
You say, "Yea I say dumb stuff on lnet, its not in game."
>say I didn't know you were policing it
You say, "I didn't know you were policing it."
>;chat literally pulled for crybaby losers
Wyrom says, "I know, but check POLICY 3 though."
>say I've been on lnet for years
You say, "I've been on lnet for years."
>say said a lot of dumb stuff
You say, "Said a lot of dumb stuff."
>say many many years, never had any complaints or anything so
You say, "Many many years, never had any complaints or anything so."
>say its kinda hard to just *know* these things
You say, "Its kinda hard to just *know* these things."
>say but thank you for telling me
You say, "But thank you for telling me."
>
Wyrom nods.
>;chat yes fucking losers
>;chat hahaha
>;chat I hurt some fee fees so bad on lnet wyrom pulled me
Wyrom says, "Like I said, we don't police it, we're just getting complaints about the use of some terms."
>;chat lmfaooooooooooooooooooooo
>;chat safe space needed
>say well it sure sounds like you do
>shrug
You say, "Well it sure sounds like you do."
>
You shrug.
>say doesn't matter to me
You say, "Doesn't matter to me."
>say just good to know
You say, "Just good to know."
>say I can censor myself
You say, "I can censor myself."
>
Wyrom nods.
>
Wyrom says, "Alright, I'll send you back."
>say like I said I assumed ooc platform, third party etc
You say, "Like I said I assumed ooc platform, third party etc."
>;chat yes
>;chat 100% legit
Wyrom says, "Well you should check POLICY 3."
>;chat hahahaha
Wyrom says, "You haven't each time I suggested it."
>say well it's good to know
You say, "Well it's good to know."
>
Wyrom says, "I can see everything you type."
>policy 3

GemStone IV Player Policy: Abusive Or Disruptive Behavior

General Behavior

Because GemStone IV is a multi-player game, there can sometimes be a conflict between an individual player's idea of entertainment and that of the majority of the players as a whole. In such situations, the majority will be given the greatest weight.

GemStone IV is designed for the enjoyment of everyone, and as a general rule, any behavior which is specifically targeted to lessen that enjoyment for another player may be in violation of GemStone IV policy. While what is disruptive is an extremely long list, it includes things such as vulgarity, harassment, sexual misconduct, cyber-bullying, out of character threats, doxing, and actions specifically targeted to be disruptive.

This applies to all interactions within the in-game environment, the official GSIV Forums, GSWiki, and any areas of official communication.

Threatening violence, using hate speech, and engaging in any sort of personal harassment shall be grounds for immediate account termination, regardless of if it happening in or out of game.

Vulgarity

Vulgarity in GemStone IV is prohibited. Using vulgarity in non-private areas of the game can cause your character to undergo stricter monitoring, and depending on the severity of the language used, result in harsh penalties. It is important to have consent when using graphic language and to engage in private communication. POLICY 17 also touches base on privacy and what locales are considered non-private that are commonly mistaken as private areas. Masked vulgarity through alternate spelling and abbreviations can be considered graphic language, even though it is more accepted in general conversation outside of GemStone IV.

Buyer Beware

When making a purchase from another player, there are several ways everyone can protect themselves from getting scammed, such as asking to see the note or contents of a container before buying, getting a bard to LORESING, having a warrior ASSESS, casting Elemental Detection, and using one of the magic crystals (such as the one in the Abandoned Inn). In order to avoid someone running off with your money before handing over an item, use the EXCHANGE verb. All buyers are responsible for protecting themselves from dishonest dealers, so it is a good idea to check into the reputation of a seller when making a large investment of silvers. Remember, if something seems too good to be true, it most likely is!

While GemStone IV is a "buyer beware" economy when exchanging items between other players, purposely participating in fraudulent activity to steal or cheat someone of their items, silvers, or other in-game currency can result in an official warning or a permanent lockout. Items obtained through fraud are subject to confiscation.

Your next unread page is page 1.
>say cause I have ready policy
You say, "Cause I have ready policy."
>say many times
>
You say, "Many times."
>say as you know
You say, "As you know."
>say it's condescending to tell me that
You say, "It's condescending to tell me that."
>policy 3

GemStone IV Player Policy: Abusive Or Disruptive Behavior

General Behavior

Because GemStone IV is a multi-player game, there can sometimes be a conflict between an individual player's idea of entertainment and that of the majority of the players as a whole. In such situations, the majority will be given the greatest weight.

GemStone IV is designed for the enjoyment of everyone, and as a general rule, any behavior which is specifically targeted to lessen that enjoyment for another player may be in violation of GemStone IV policy. While what is disruptive is an extremely long list, it includes things such as vulgarity, harassment, sexual misconduct, cyber-bullying, out of character threats, doxing, and actions specifically targeted to be disruptive.

This applies to all interactions within the in-game environment, the official GSIV Forums, GSWiki, and any areas of official communication.

Threatening violence, using hate speech, and engaging in any sort of personal harassment shall be grounds for immediate account termination, regardless of if it happening in or out of game.

Vulgarity

Vulgarity in GemStone IV is prohibited. Using vulgarity in non-private areas of the game can cause your character to undergo stricter monitoring, and depending on the severity of the language used, result in harsh penalties. It is important to have consent when using graphic language and to engage in private communication. POLICY 17 also touches base on privacy and what locales are considered non-private that are commonly mistaken as private areas. Masked vulgarity through alternate spelling and abbreviations can be considered graphic language, even though it is more accepted in general conversation outside of GemStone IV.

Buyer Beware

When making a purchase from another player, there are several ways everyone can protect themselves from getting scammed, such as asking to see the note or contents of a container before buying, getting a bard to LORESING, having a warrior ASSESS, casting Elemental Detection, and using one of the magic crystals (such as the one in the Abandoned Inn). In order to avoid someone running off with your money before handing over an item, use the EXCHANGE verb. All buyers are responsible for protecting themselves from dishonest dealers, so it is a good idea to check into the reputation of a seller when making a large investment of silvers. Remember, if something seems too good to be true, it most likely is!

While GemStone IV is a "buyer beware" economy when exchanging items between other players, purposely participating in fraudulent activity to steal or cheat someone of their items, silvers, or other in-game currency can result in an official warning or a permanent lockout. Items obtained through fraud are subject to confiscation.

Your next unread page is page 1.
>say I will censor myself though its no problem really
You say, "I will censor myself though its no problem really."
>
Wyrom says, "POLICY 3 was updated not too long ago about this this year."
>say I don't *need* to chat to people on lnet
You say, "I don't *need* to chat to people on lnet."
>say it's good to know the rules ya know
You say, "It's good to know the rules ya know."
>
Wyrom nods.
>say I try to play in the boundaries even if I'm a dick sometimes
You say, "I try to play in the boundaries even if I'm a dick sometimes."
>chort
>
You chortle.
>
Wyrom grins.
>;chat posting the log on pc after lmao
>say alright I am set
You say, "Alright I am set."
>
Wyrom nods.
>say won't chat to people on lnet anymore
You say, "Won't chat to people on lnet anymore."
>
Wyrom waves to you.
>say thanks much
You say, "Thanks much."
>wave
You wave.
>
The world grows blurry and indistinct. After a moment everything becomes clear again. Looking about, you see...
[Duskruin Arena, Descent]
Sloping downward into the mountainside, the dim tunnel ends at an expansive stone archway that serves as the entrance to a bright chamber beyond. To one side, another tunnel appears to have once been started, but never finished, leaving deep gouges in the walls. You also see a polished steel metal breastplate.
Obvious exits: southeast

[Astray]

Fuck Wyrom.

[Hightower]

Hey, tell you what, Wyrom. If you want to moderate the chat channels everyone uses, why not make your own? Zaoloo may be the (roughly) human equivalent of a bucket of jizz with chips of shit in it, but LNet isn't yours to police.

~Taverkin

[Fortybox]

Wow - this is just, bad. Basically Wyrom is saying they can terminate any account if the person feels attacked. It’s not just lnet but the policy can apply anywhere, including the PC.

This guy is out of control.

[Gelston]

rofl, you didn't know GMs were on LNet? I thought that was common knowledge.

But yeah, I think they're stepping outside their bounds here. They can't even prove that a name is actually that person.

[Murrandii]

I believe the same, bro Gelston. So if they pulled Zaoloo, it's cause the knew he was the same person, on lnet and gemstone.
First question: HOW?

Second question: Who gave them that authority to police Lnet?

That is totally dangerous.

[Stumplicker]

You of all people Zaoloo should know that you never ever under any circumstances talk to the police. That conversation should have been four lines long:

Wyrom says "We don't police Lnet but..."

You say, "Good."

Wyrom says "We've gotten logs of.."

You say, "You are incorrect. If you aren't denying me service based on your policies, we have nothing further to talk about. Goodbye."


---------------------------------


Your responses there only serve to give him in game ammunition to police. Their policies don't cover policing elsewhere, and he can't prove you said anything with a log someone sent him. Now he's officially recorded a conversation in game in which you were asked to read policy 3, and they've logged that.

Next time you give him anything, he has a papertrail to hang you with.

Don't talk to the cops. They're not talking to you to help you. They're talking to you to help them.

[thesupman]

wow - just - wow, apparently you were arguing with a GM alt probably Wyrom's or someone with special circumstance to him.

[audioserf]

This is pretty fucked. Instead of using ;lnet ignore someone decided the whole channel should suddenly have rules to make his world a little bit safer and mashed that Report button.

[Gelston]

This is basically akin to if they started using things said on these forums to go after players in the game. It is a third party thing. You can, and I have seen people, spoof their names on LNet.

I think Wyrom needs to back up on this shit.

[Taernath]

This is basically akin to if they started using things said on these forums to go after players in the game. It is a third party thing. You can, and I have seen people, spoof their names on LNet.

I think Wyrom needs to back up on this shit.

Andraste did. Remember that shit?

[Stumplicker]

I'm just gonna put this here. I'll say once that it gets juuuust....instant results, and makes Mario look like a fucking idiot. But here's a fun email address to direct any complaints of malfeasance to rather than waiting 6 weeks for an assist/refer/go fuck yourself cycle:

Jörgen Larsson, CEO
Phone +46 70 321 18 00 or e-mail jorgen@stillfront.com

https://www.stillfront.com/contact/

[Wyrom]

Guess I'll come out of retirement a moment.

Just so it's clear. We don't police lnet. We were sent logs from several sources about the use of some strong language. Due to POLICY 3 updates and feedback being emailed (chain-of-command over me), the following discussion took place. No GM is monitoring lnet and going through what you say. But players can certainly say something to us. This is the social climate we live in today.

[Luntz]

Safe space incoming

[Stumplicker]

Guess I'll come out of retirement a moment.

Just so it's clear. We don't police lnet. We were sent logs from several sources about the use of some strong language. Due to POLICY 3 updates and feedback being emailed (chain-of-command over me), the following discussion took place. No GM is monitoring lnet and going through what you say. But players can certainly say something to us. This is the social climate we live in today.

We know exactly what you're trying to do, and that you have zero authority to do so. You brought him in to see if he'd hang himself. You are in fact attempting to police properties outside of your official channels, and that is legally defensible in any court of law unless you have the permission and logs directly from the owners of the third party systems involved. I assume then that these logs you have received came from Tillmen?

[beldannon5]

Yep lots of whiny bitches that cant untune lnet sigh

[Taernath]

Guess I'll come out of retirement a moment.

Just so it's clear. We don't police lnet. We were sent logs from several sources about the use of some strong language. Due to POLICY 3 updates and feedback being emailed (chain-of-command over me), the following discussion took place. No GM is monitoring lnet and going through what you say. But players can certainly say something to us. This is the social climate we live in today.

What's your process for determining if what is said in a log is truthful?

[Gelston]

I could have sworn, many times in the past, that GMs have said they don't accept player logs as any sort of evidence because... You know, they can be altered. Is this policy changing now?

[Neveragain]

Hey, tell you what, Wyrom. If you want to moderate the chat channels everyone uses, why not make your own? Zaoloo may be the (roughly) human equivalent of a bucket of jizz with chips of shit in it, but LNet isn't yours to police.

~Taverkin

Ditto.

When will Wyrom grow a set and start temp banning the people that constantly harass other players over rightthink?

[Donquix]

Guess I'll come out of retirement a moment.

Just so it's clear. We don't police lnet. We were sent logs from several sources about the use of some strong language. Due to POLICY 3 updates and feedback being emailed (chain-of-command over me), the following discussion took place. No GM is monitoring lnet and going through what you say. But players can certainly say something to us. This is the social climate we live in today.

Whats the chain of command so I can email all the times you told me to fuck off on lnet? I have totally real and verifiable logs.

You have no purview into a god damn thing on lnet. Stay in your fucking lane. Reply to people "this isn't something we have control of or any way to verify." end of fucking email, sack up and do your job.

[Astray]

Guess I'll come out of retirement a moment.

Just so it's clear. We don't police lnet. We were sent logs from several sources about the use of some strong language. Due to POLICY 3 updates and feedback being emailed (chain-of-command over me), the following discussion took place. No GM is monitoring lnet and going through what you say. But players can certainly say something to us. This is the social climate we live in today.
Strong language on a platform you dont control and have no authority over. Not to mention that platform saves your game from your own incompetence.

Take a hint, back down.

[Drexen]

More nazi moderation from Simutronics, how are they able to confirm anything if they are not monitoring it? I just walked into my backyard and yelled that Simutronics is a money grubbing crock of shit company that exploits any help it gets and the success of the game is in spite of them and not because of them. Am I violating policy 3 now even though I said nothing in game?

[Wyrom]

We had a few people send in the same screenshots. Either way, all parties were spoken with at this time.

Just like this thread, people alerted me to its existence. I haven't checked the PC in quite some time.

[Gelston]

Did you tell these "people above you" what LNet is? Are they aware it isn't a Simutronics product? Perhaps you should make sure they understand that.

[Wyrom]

Did you tell these "people above you" what LNet is? Are they aware it isn't a Simutronics product? Perhaps you should make sure they understand that.

They are aware it's third-party software that overlays the game, and that 87% of online users are using it.

[Drexen]

And that Simutronics has nothing to do with it and no control over it?

[Astray]

We had a few people send in the same screenshots. Either way, all parties were spoken with at this time.

Just like this thread, people alerted me to its existence. I haven't checked the PC in quite some time.

You have no authority though. Fuck your policy because it doesn't apply to lnet.

[Stumplicker]

I'm going to go ahead and forward this thread's link to to Stillfront's legal team. They're gonna want to jump on this before it becomes more of an issue. You've way overstepped your bounds again. Zaoloo, you should be threatening legal action against the company.

[Kaldonis]

We don't normally tell people this, but if you copy lnet.lic to say, lnet2.lic and go to around line 110, go comment this out and change it:


element.add_attribute('name', 'Kaldonis')
#element.add_attribute('name', XMLData.name)


Now you go chat as anyone that hasn't protected their ID with their password in some manner.

[dex]

They are aware it's third-party software that overlays the game, and that 87% of online users are using it.

Are they aware that most of those 87% would probably stop playing the game if it ever went away, so maybe it's a pretty good idea NOT to mess with that system?

[beldannon5]

Almostnseems someone has a vendetta against zaoloo

[Luntz]

I wasn't shown any logs and don't believe anything reported about me, the people who put effort into hating me have gone above and beyond to make up shit before, I am talking literal months of stalking and effort, this is par for the course.

[beldannon5]

Not saying he doesn't say a lot of crap

[audioserf]

Well this is all quite disappointing.

[Gelston]

We don't normally tell people this, but if you copy lnet.lic to say, lnet2.lic and go to around line 110, go comment this out and change it:



Now you go chat as anyone that hasn't protected their ID with their password in some manner.

Exactly what I was referring to earlier. That is why Simu cannot use things said in LNet. You don't run the program, you don't have the IPs, you don't know if it is actually that person.

[Wyrom]

Fair enough. Was just trying to explain a few things. No players were warned. I guess at the end of the day, players should know better about lnet. Carry on.

[Amerek]

They are aware it's third-party software that overlays the game, and that 87% of online users are using it.

"If you are offended on this 3rd party platform, then please ;lnet ignore Zaoloo"

[Taernath]

I guess at the end of the day, players should know better about lnet.

GMs, too.

[Astray]

"If you are offended on this 3rd party platform, then please ;lnet ignore Zaoloo"

Nah, just whine and bitch till Wyrom oversteps and have him downplay the issue.

[Donquix]

like 80% of the time you get yourself in deep shit with players, it's because you're too chickenshit to tell your superiors they're wrong, or GMs they need to do their jobs.

Just fyi.

[Stumplicker]

Fair enough. Was just trying to explain a few things. No players were warned. I guess at the end of the day, players should know better about lnet. Carry on.

There is no explanation for your actions. It's harassment with no basis, plain and simple. You logged the interaction with him, and now it's part of your official record, based on a third party system to which you have no administrative access or authority.

[Wyrom]

"If you are offended on this 3rd party platform, then please ;lnet ignore Zaoloo"

While you might just be joking, we'll probably need to add some language to POLICY 3 about areas that can have offensive language. It is what it is.

[OmegaMoo]

We had a few people send in the same screenshots. Either way, all parties were spoken with at this time.

Just like this thread, people alerted me to its existence. I haven't checked the PC in quite some time.

You realize that Person 1 that got hurt could have just as easily sent the screenshot to his/her buddies and that why there are "several screenshots". Lnet still out of Simu's jurisdiction. It's like Vegas, what goes on lnet stays on lnet. Simu does not own Lnet nor does Simu have the tools on lnet to enforce anything. It's one things if it's on a Simu forum or discord, but it's another if it's out of your control and out of your bounds. Lnet is not owned by ya'll. Frankly, people who get butt hurt on lnet need to learn to ;untune or ;ignore person(s) It is not Simu's problem if people want to use an unsupported 3rd party software that is not policed by Simu to decide they are offended and then want to complain to Simu. They have no business taking to Simu nor does Simu have any business trying to fish and give Zaoloo rope to hang himself in by you pulling him out to have a a now IN GAME log.

I seriously hope this just drops already or you can and you will kill the game. When we choose to use Lich, we knew it's not supported nor policed by Simu nor can Simu enforce anything on Lnet and therefore it is OUR responsibility to handle things on Lnet via the powers that be on Lnet if it is something serious. That is THEIR job. Not Simu's.

[Luntz]

I have had people stalk me in game for months making fake reports while trying to "get" me on some shit I didn't do, I really don't trust this in any way shape or form and think it's super inappropriate that I have to censor myself on lnet now or get banned in game.

[Stumplicker]

While you might just be joking, we'll probably need to add some language to POLICY 3 about areas that can have offensive language. It is what it is.

No, it is not "it is what it is". It is what you have a legal right to claim, and in this instance, you have no right to claim or police anything.

[Aequis]

Lol... We've had reports of strong language on LNet...

[Drexen]

I have proof too, not bad for about 10 seconds in paint 9219

If anyone actually cared they could edit a screenshot anyway they wanted

[SonoftheNorth]

Wyrom says, "I can see everything you type."

[audioserf]

This is an overstepping of bounds that could quite easily lead to either a material drop in player base or, at worst, the end of Lich (and with it a much more material drop in player base). I don't see the 'win' in making Lnet Simu's business. I see a lot of ways for a Loss, though.

[Amerek]

While you might just be joking, we'll probably need to add some language to POLICY 3 about areas that can have offensive language. It is what it is.

Only partly joking. For legal purposes, can't you just state outright that conversations on 3rd party platforms are not monitored and thus not the responsibility of Simutronics? Not sure there is a need to explicity sanction offensive language (although I heartily approve of doing so), but, then again, I'm not a lawyer.

[Astray]

While you might just be joking, we'll probably need to add some language to POLICY 3 about areas that can have offensive language. It is what it is.

It doesn't matter because YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY OVER LNET.

You dick.

[Taernath]

I have proof too, not bad for about 10 seconds in paint 9219

If anyone actually cared they could edit a screenshot anyway they wanted

Pretty much.

https://i.imgur.com/OfB3aLY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/NMbUNct.jpg

[Hightower]

Guess I'll come out of retirement a moment.

Just so it's clear. We don't police lnet. We were sent logs from several sources about the use of some strong language. Due to POLICY 3 updates and feedback being emailed (chain-of-command over me), the following discussion took place. No GM is monitoring lnet and going through what you say. But players can certainly say something to us. This is the social climate we live in today.

Wouldn't the appropriate response be to advise the player with the complaint that LNet is not Simutronics software and that their best recourse in the event the issue persists is to not use the third party software in question?

Better yet, wouldn't it be nice if Gemstone came out of the dark ages and had its own built-in global chat channels free of annoying throwback inconveniences like RT/status effects, items/symbols to keep it turned on all the time, etc.? Maybe then the players could have the features they expect in online games coincide with your ability to moderate chat channels according to policy.

Don't get me wrong. Had you done this in the form of asking a personal favor ("Hey, Zaoloo, we've had some complaints. Do you think you could tone it down a little bit on LNet?), then I wouldn't see a problem. This is a small community and such things are not unheard of here. But that's not what you did. You monitored and then you pulled Zaoloo aside in an official capacity to provide an informal warning regarding policy. That absolutely is policing LNet. And I get that Zaoloo is a scumbag. We all know it. Heck, he probably wears a t-shirt that says "Scumbag" with an arrow pointing toward his face and never washes it. But that's beside the point. You overstepped.

By the way, good talking to you again, Wyrom. It's been awhile!

~Taverkin

[Tgo01]

Wyrom says, "Well you should check POLICY 3."
Wyrom says, "You haven't each time I suggested it."
Wyrom says, "I can see everything you type."

What a creepy ass interaction. Heavily implying you have to type "policy 3" before he'll let you go and then following up with "I can see everything you type." What happened to Wyrom?

[Kaldonis]

Better yet, wouldn't it be nice if Gemstone came out of the dark ages and had its own built-in global chat channels free of annoying throwback inconveniences like RT/status effects, items/symbols to keep it turned on all the time, etc.? Maybe then the players could have the features they expect in online games coincide with your ability to moderate chat channels according to policy.

~Taverkin

Thanks for this constructive comment. It's a good idea.

[Gelston]

Wyrom says, "Well you should check POLICY 3."
Wyrom says, "You haven't each time I suggested it."
Wyrom says, "I can see everything you type."

What a creepy ass interaction. Heavily implying you have to type "policy 3" before he'll let you go and then following up with "I can see everything you type." What happened to Wyrom?

They can see anything you enter into the game window, whether it is a valid command or not. Except things beginning with ;, which lich intercepts before it arrives there.

[Stumplicker]

Thanks for this constructive comment. It's a good idea.

Speaking of constructive, that was really appreciated that you posted the Lnet thing. I didn't know that was so easily possible until now. Now that you've said it though, it might be a good idea to edit that comment down to something like "You can easily spoof a name on Lnet through its core files" rather than spelling out the entire process. That doesn't seem like knowledge that would be good to have this public.

[Gelston]

Interesting...

Threatening violence, using hate speech, and engaging in any sort of personal harassment shall be grounds for immediate account termination, regardless of if it happening in or out of game.

The line above that says only official areas of communication though.

[Gelston]

Wyrom you check the PC every few days (like days not weeks or months) I keep tabs on your PC account just because.

But seriously though, I don’t think you should be wading into Lich waters. I know you feel like God right now with your crazy Dusk/slots money but I just got a hunch doing so will domino into something bad. Just some friendly advice.

**Finally, to the players: You guys think it’s possible for us to program in incognito mode for Lich? Is Lich open source? Asking since I’m not a leet haxsor programmer.

Just change your name to gibberish, how Kaldonis showed earlier.

[Hightower]

Thanks for this constructive comment. It's a good idea.

It's the only solution I see beyond the status quo. The box has been opened. You can't get rid of global chat and anything you might do to discourage its use would be potentially catastrophic for the game. It's one of the pillars of the game now. However, if you designed your own and made it convenient to use, then perhaps players would adopt it and we wouldn't have awkward situations like this cropping up.

~Taverkin

[Stumplicker]

Please also take note of the fact that getting Zaoloo to read POLICY 3 in that situation almost certainly means they made changes to POLICY 3 to apply specifically to that situation, because Zaoloo's character wasn't logged as having read it since the last update.

It's very possible they received a complaint, changed policy 3 to cover it, and then forced Zaoloo to re-read the policy for proof that they'd covered it with him before nailing him on it next time it comes up.

[thesupman]

Develop the necessary infrastructure to support current-day needs/wants of the customer? nnaaaaah they'd rather make more cashgrabs before we all get arthritis from typing so much and stop playing.

[Alastir]

It's the only solution I see beyond the status quo. The box has been opened. You can't get rid of global chat and anything you might do to discourage its use would be potentially catastrophic for the game. It's one of the pillars of the game now. However, if you designed your own and made it convenient to use, then perhaps players would adopt it and we wouldn't have awkward situations like this cropping up.

~Taverkin

Dragonrealms has a command, I think it's OOC, for a global chat. I would imagine that could be ported over fairly easily.

[beldannon5]

Lol I had zaoloo ignored for a while. But not anymore lol

[Tgo01]

Just like this thread, people alerted me to its existence. I haven't checked the PC in quite some time.

"I don't care about you losers on the PC, someone alerted me to this thread so I decided to reply."

It's pretty bad when Luntz is the person you feel sympathy for in a conversation, I didn't even know that was possible.

[Kaldonis]

Just change your name to gibberish, how Kaldonis showed earlier.

True or false:

If literacy improved, LNet would get better.

Discuss.

[SonoftheNorth]

They need to offer character name changes to diffuse player feuds instead of trying to police LNET, people buy and sell characters anyway and they can spend their time policing scammers abusing that system and not out of game player interactions.

[Avaia]

Bunch of snowflakes, the lot of ya.

One douchebag gets a reprimand for..surprise, surprise....being a douchebag, and ya'll start lawyering up.

Just spitballing here...but while it is true that Lich is third-party software, people *are* logged into Simutronics property while using it. I wonder if that makes a legalese difference in "You have no Authority."

[Wyrom]

"I don't care about you losers on the PC, someone alerted me to this thread so I decided to reply."

It's pretty bad when Luntz is the person you feel sympathy for in a conversation, I didn't even know that was possible.

I mean, that's not the case. I hadn't read the PC in quite awhile. I haven't kept up on the day-to-day over here. I've been pretty busy. I do miss chatting with you guys, and while it wasn't my choice to stop, I don't have any issues with the existence of the PC, lnet, etc. Some of you just need to realize I'm doing a job. I'm not the boss of the game. Most importantly, I just want to make sure GemStone IV can exist.

[SonoftheNorth]

Bunch of snowflakes, the lot of ya.

One douchebag gets a reprimand for..surprise, surprise....being a douchebag, and ya'll start lawyering up.

Just spitballing here...but while it is true that Lich is third-party software, people *are* logged into Simutronics property while using it. I wonder if that makes a legalese difference in "You have no Authority."

.......you're a fucking idiot.

[hideair]

Bunch of snowflakes, the lot of ya.

One douchebag gets a reprimand for..surprise, surprise....being a douchebag, and ya'll start lawyering up.

Just spitballing here...but while it is true that Lich is third-party software, people *are* logged into Simutronics property while using it. I wonder if that makes a legalese difference in "You have no Authority."

I'm, also, logged into Netflix while using Simutronics property...because of that do they now have the right to police what content I watch and ban/warn me if I watch something they find too risque?

[Astray]

I mean, that's not the case. I hadn't read the PC in quite awhile. I haven't kept up on the day-to-day over here. I've been pretty busy. I do miss chatting with you guys, and while it wasn't my choice to stop, I don't have any issues with the existence of the PC, lnet, etc. Some of you just need to realize I'm doing a job. I'm not the boss of the game. Most importantly, I just want to make sure GemStone IV can exist.

You're doing a shit job.

[Tgo01]

Bunch of snowflakes, the lot of ya.

One douchebag gets a reprimand for..surprise, surprise....being a douchebag, and ya'll start lawyering up.

I don't care if Luntz get a reprimand for being a douchebag, it's the overreach I'm referring to here. What's next, can Luntz lodge a complaint against you in game because you called him a douchebag on the PC? If not why not? Why are you special? Clearly the PC isn't the special one in this case because as POLICY 3 clearly states they can enforce this policy on third party sites as well.


Just spitballing here...but while it is true that Lich is third-party software, people *are* logged into Simutronics property while using it. I wonder if that makes a legalese difference in "You have no Authority."

Legally speaking Simu can do just about anything they want with their property. It's just a shitty policy to try and enforce.

[Luntz]

Most importantly, I just want to make sure GemStone IV can exist.

This situation certainly won't help that. People had the impression they weren't being policed on lnet, even if it was going on, they had that illusion. That's gone now.

[Parkbandit]

We had a few people send in the same screenshots. Either way, all parties were spoken with at this time.

Just like this thread, people alerted me to its existence. I haven't checked the PC in quite some time.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CraftyGleefulIndianrockpython-small.gif

I bet you found out about this thread from your other forum: https://forums.elanthia.online

Oh wait...

[Kaldonis]

I'M SPARTACUS

[Astray]

Bunch of snowflakes, the lot of ya.

One douchebag gets a reprimand for..surprise, surprise....being a douchebag, and ya'll start lawyering up.

Just spitballing here...but while it is true that Lich is third-party software, people *are* logged into Simutronics property while using it. I wonder if that makes a legalese difference in "You have no Authority."

The policy literally cannot be enforced because otherwise, you are terminating people unfairly for their right to expression and free speech. Based entirely on a separate platform.

You should take attempts to police behavior and speech far more seriously.

[Gelston]

I'm, also, logged into Netflix while using Simutronics property...because of that do they now have the right to police what content I watch and ban/warn me if I watch something they find too risque?

..... wut? How?

Ah, n/m, I was interpreting it as you using SGE to open netflix somehow.

[Wyrom]

This situation certainly won't help that. People had the impression they weren't being policed on lnet, even if it was going on, they had that illusion. That's gone now.

I understand that, but this was something reported to us. But I feel like through all the angst some people pointed out some good concerns which I can bring up about lnet. Trust me when I say this, if I don't have to speak to people about name calling, I'm all for that. I was in the middle of quite a bit of work and had to stop what I was doing to speak with you.

[C.Difficile]

Some observations:

- Simu & lnet are symbotic, but posters here are correct that the genie is out of the bottle. Simu decided to let lnet persist (to its ultimate benefit) without addressing the needs it served and now it has a foothold in the game that cannot be withdrawn -- as lnet goes, so goes Gemstone.

- The people on lnet who complained to Wyrom need to be found and banned from lnet. If you can't handle the responsibility of "Pirate Island" and how to resolve things there, then you cannot stay on the island.

- People on here talking about "legal action" need to slow their roll. You're obviously not lawyers, stop pretending to be.

- I don't think anyone disputes the OPs right to free expression, but he can probably stand to be less openly antagonistic on purpose and for no apparent reason.

[Murrandii]

MY complaint:

9220

[Wyrom]

I bet you found out about this thread from your other forum: https://forums.elanthia.online

Oh wait...

Heh, burn. I still enjoyed the software over there.

[Tgo01]

- I don't think anyone disputes the OPs right to free expression, but he can probably stand to be less openly antagonistic on purpose and for no apparent reason.

Luntz is obviously a toxic individual and I wouldn't lose a minute of sleep if he were banned from GS. But I would want it to be a legit reason for something he did in game, not because someone who can't be bothered to type ;ignore Luntz into their game complained to the GMs about him.

Ignoring someone in game is much different, first of all because it's not an option (unless you download and use my handy dandy script ;squelch) and second of all it affects gameplay if people started ignoring people left and right. Oh I didn't see that other empath say they were gonna heal you so I healed you, oh I have that cleric ignored so I didn't know they were helping you so I raised you first. And etc etc.

But LNet? There is no literally no reason you would need to see someone's words on LNet and the worst thing that could possibly happen is you're confused about a conversation because you're only seeing one side of it. Oh noes!

[AnOrdim]

Post ITT to unban Ordim!

[Androidpk]

Good, get rid of all the toxic trolls.

[Astru]

Only partly joking. For legal purposes, can't you just state outright that conversations on 3rd party platforms are not monitored and thus not the responsibility of Simutronics? Not sure there is a need to explicity sanction offensive language (although I heartily approve of doing so), but, then again, I'm not a lawyer.
I'm not a lawyer either, but I'm pretty sure that it's not hard for Simutronics to say something like that.

They could probably hire a lawyer for an hour to write a short statement to that effect if they like (I actually thought there was some sort of official statement about third party software and how they're not remotely responsible for it already) then write a nice little customer service version of the phrase that you just copy and paste to anyone who makes an official complaint about something that happens on lnet.

It's absolutely not an official problem at all and it's definitely unreasonable for GMs to get involved in it since it sounds like he was just swearing on lnet. All someone has to do is ignore Zaoloo and the problem would be solved.

It's not like he's creating an army of alts with the aim of harassing an individual or something that's actually serious (though even then, that's not Simutronics's business).

[Stumplicker]

Trust me when I say this, if I don't have to speak to people about name calling, I'm all for that. I was in the middle of quite a bit of work and had to stop what I was doing to speak with you.

Bullshit. You had to stop what you were doing to speak with us because you were caught redhanded overstepping your bounds while acting in an official capacity and now your position is in jeopardy.

Nobody is eager to defend Zaoloo here. That's how badly your reputation has been tarnished over the years. The things you've done have taken you beyond the point of redemption to when you overstep this badly, we'll jump to anyone's defense. Even Zaoloo's. You have nobody's interests or well-being in mind but your own.

[Wyrom]

Bullshit. You had to stop what you were doing to speak with us because you were caught redhanded overstepping your bounds while acting in an official capacity and now your position is in jeopardy.

Nobody is eager to defend Zaoloo here. That's how badly your reputation has been tarnished over the years. The things you've done have taken you beyond the point of redemption to when you overstep this badly, we'll jump to anyone's defense. Even Zaoloo's.

Me talking on the PC isn't what I'm talking about. I can do this while I work still.

[Stumplicker]

Me talking on the PC isn't what I'm talking about. I can do this while I work still.

It was very good of you then, to take time out of your busy day to police third party software and harass a player who did nothing through your channels or policies to earn it. Round of applause for Mario, everybody.

[Androidpk]

Bullshit. You had to stop what you were doing to speak with us because you were caught redhanded overstepping your bounds while acting in an official capacity and now your position is in jeopardy.

Nobody is eager to defend Zaoloo here. That's how badly your reputation has been tarnished over the years. The things you've done have taken you beyond the point of redemption to when you overstep this badly, we'll jump to anyone's defense. Even Zaoloo's. You have nobody's interests or well-being in mind but your own.

So much salt.

[Donquix]

I understand that, but this was something reported to us. But I feel like through all the angst some people pointed out some good concerns which I can bring up about lnet. Trust me when I say this, if I don't have to speak to people about name calling, I'm all for that. I was in the middle of quite a bit of work and had to stop what I was doing to speak with you.

No, you didn't. The alternative was being good at your job. Instead, you refuse to take any kind of stand and tried to pass the buck.

Same shit, every time man. You could easily manage this shit better, you avoid as much conflict as possible and then i count the seconds before you throw in some whoah is us appeal to emotion bullshit + generic canned compliment to the playerbase (which were both in the previous reply to this one). You go down the same "how to manage people for dummies" checklist every time. It's fucking hilarious.

[Luntz]

It was very good of you then, to take time out of your busy day to police third party software and harass a player who did nothing through your channels or policies to earn it. Round of applause for Mario, everybody.

^^^^^

[Kaldonis]

I think it's important to recognize the reality of the situation, and the parent company, higher-ups, or whoever is complaining should know.

To my knowledge, Mentors are instructed not to mention third-party software like lich.

When krakiipedia started to have server issues, eventually Simu cloned it to what we now know as gswiki.

While I am a tough person to satisfy and I think some of these things could be done differently, we should recognize there isn't really anything incongruent here.

[Tgo01]

Good, get rid of all the toxic trolls.

You really know you fucked up when Androidpk is taking your side.

[Wyrom]

No, you didn't. The alternative was being good at your job. Instead, you refuse to take any kind of stand and tried to pass the buck.

Same shit, every time man. You could easily manage this shit better, you avoid as much conflict as possible and then i count the seconds before you throw in some whoah is us appeal to emotion bullshit + generic canned compliment to the playerbase (which were both in the previous reply to this one). You go down the same "how to manage people for dummies" checklist every time. It's fucking hilarious.

If that's how you feel, I can't change that. It's not the case. Like I mentioned, there are some points made in this thread that I'll be addressing, such as the ability to change your name.

[SonoftheNorth]

Me talking on the PC isn't what I'm talking about. I can do this while I work still.

If you can post here about this why don't you stick around so you can actually get some uncensored game feedback instead of forcing people to use discord with your policies where they are too scared to say anything negative?

[Bryce]

I think it's important to recognize the reality of the situation, and the parent company, higher-ups, or whoever is complaining should know.

To my knowledge, Mentors are instructed not to mention third-party software like lich.

When krakiipedia started to have server issues, eventually Simu cloned it to what we now know as gswiki.

While I am a tough person to satisfy and I think some of these things could be done differently, we should recognize there isn't really anything incongruent here.

I am not sure what that word even means incongruent? I would look it up in the dictionary but my house burnt down with my books, including the dictionary, all our family photos, and a stray cat we were feeding.

[Stumplicker]

If that's how you feel, I can't change that. It's not the case. Like I mentioned, there are some points made in this thread that I'll be addressing, such as the ability to change your name.

Good job guys. His main takeaway from this entire ordeal has been an idea for a new microtransaction.

[Wyrom]

If you can post here about this why don't you stick around so you can actually get some uncensored game feedback instead of forcing people to use discord with your policies where they are too scared to say anything negative?

I tried that. It's not exactly easy for me. We're pretty relaxed on Discord though, people can be negative there.

[Wyrom]

Good job guys. His main takeaway from this entire ordeal has been an idea for a new microtransaction.

You're losing your momentum. Who mentioned microtransactions?

[Gelston]

You're losing your momentum. Who mentioned microtransactions?

I think he means name changes.

[Stumplicker]

You're losing your momentum. Who mentioned microtransactions?

Back when you were considered a decent human being, you might have been given the benefit of the doubt. You are not, though, and those days are long gone. I work in marketing too, for a much larger corporation than yours. You will never convince me that anything you do comes from a good person.

[Tgo01]

I'm not sure why Simu/Stillfront/whoever even wants to get involved in third party sites. If something illegal or really bad happens on these sites at least Simu can legit say "We have no control over third party sites and we do not condone everything that happens on these sites."

By taking a hands on approach and threatening to take action against people for stuff they say on these third party sites aren't you going to open yourself up to a whole lot of shit when something really bad happens and people start wondering why you didn't kick said person off your service?

Just seems odd that you would want to go down this road.

[Androidpk]

Tgo's worried about all the racist shit he's said on lnet.

[Wyrom]

I think he means name changes.

Kaldonis posted how you can change your displayed name on lnet.

[Gelston]

Kaldonis posted how you can change your displayed name on lnet.

Yeah I know that. I mean name changes in GS as a service. I think it was implied that it was thought you were talking about that and of course it'd be a new microtrans.

[Tgo01]

Tgo's worried about all the racist shit he's said on lnet.

Luntz says actual racist shit on LNet all the time, not this made up racist shit you claim I say. And I still don't think Luntz should be given shit in game from the GMs for shit he said on LNet.

Luntz also pretends to be black. Hey look at that, Tgo01 is defending a supposed black man and Androidpk wants a black man to be banned. Androidpk showing his racism again.

[Velfi]

https://i.imgur.com/5bjNpKW.gif

[Wyrom]

Yeah I know that. I mean name changes in GS as a service. I think it was implied that it was thought you were talking about that and of course it'd be a new microtrans.

Name changes, if ever possible in game, would be easy to track. Just seemed like a weird connection. But he does work for a better company than me and is a much better person, so I'll just live my life hoping to catch a few of his crumbs.

[Nephelem]

Definitely a bad idea to wade into these waters. Having said that, of course Simu could ban you for things outside the game, they can quite literally ban you for anything they want, so spare me the constitutional arguments. The edgelord quotient is off the charts in this thread. You guys really should have a Con where you can rub on each other IRL.

[Androidpk]

I'm not racist, you're racist!

Insert Tgo's NOU

[Murrandii]

Name changes, if ever possible in game, would be easy to track. Just seemed like a weird connection. But he does work for a better company than me and is a much better person, so I'll just live my life hoping to catch a few of his crumbs.

"guys, I went ahead of myself. Simu won't go beyond their services and that exclude lich as a whole (and all its scripts). I apologize for this situation. I was acting in good faith but it went out of proportion".

Matter solved. Wyrom, my advice.

[ShuffledTruffles]

Name changes, if ever possible in game, would be easy to track. Just seemed like a weird connection. But he does work for a better company than me and is a much better person, so I'll just live my life hoping to catch a few of his crumbs.

Found the problem. You made a post referencing the "name changes" to lnet all the way back at the beginning of the post, well after the frame of reference for "name changes" was changed when Luntz brought it up as a solution to people being legit stalked and harassed inside the game itself. Combined with your sudden shift to attacking your player base, further represents how disconnected and shit you are at your job.

It also makes sense that the ability to change your name in game would be tied to microtransactions because most of your quality of life improvements have come in the form of items sold for microtrans alternative currencies.

[C.Difficile]

I'm not sure why Simu/Stillfront/whoever even wants to get involved in third party sites. If something illegal or really bad happens on these sites at least Simu can legit say "We have no control over third party sites and we do not condone everything that happens on these sites."

By taking a hands on approach and threatening to take action against people for stuff they say on these third party sites aren't you going to open yourself up to a whole lot of shit when something really bad happens and people start wondering why you didn't kick said person off your service?

Just seems odd that you would want to go down this road.

I don't think they want to, but lnet is inextricably linked with the game. What happens on it may affect the public perception of their product, so it is not irrational for them to attempt to exercise control over what happens on it. They have no real ability to do so other than pulling the plug on lnet; they know they can't without killing the product, so they are in a position where they have to accept the negatives of an unregulated product in exchange for the commercial benefit it brings.

Ultimately, if something bad happens on lnet, it will in some measure be attributable to Simu because they had the ability to end it. Instead of doing so, they implicitly encouraged and directly profited from it.

Don't construe this as in any way sympathetic to Simu. As others have said, this is a beast of their own making.

[Stumplicker]

But he does work for a better company than me and is a much better person, so I'll just live my life hoping to catch a few of his crumbs.

I've said literally none of that. Not a single word of it. But you already knew that. You're just trying to deflect attention off of your own malfeasance.

[ShuffledTruffles]

That didn't happen.

And if it did, it wasn't that bad.

And if it was, that's not a big deal.

And if it is, that's not my fault.

And if it was, I didn't mean it.

And if I did...

You deserved it.

[Luntz]

I had someone make a Zaoloo in Dragonrealms recently to try and troll me by basically stealing any lich chats I receive, people who hate me put way too much effort into being minor nuisances. I wouldn't put it past the haters to make up some lnet chat logs.

[Astray]

Tgo's worried about all the racist shit he's said on lnet.


Spoken like an entitled straight white woman over 35.

He said, unironically.

[dex]

A bit tangential to this discussion but if 87% of my users used a 3rd party service to access my product, I'd definitely attempt my best to acquire and integrate it... and not mess it up in the process. I mean, how do you not? Particularly if I wanted to assure said service was in compliance with other company policies. As a player, I wouldn't want Simu oversight, but from business perspective, I just don't understand how Simu doesn't at a least have a formal relationship with Lich, given how vital it is to the game these days.

[Tgo01]

Insert Tgo's NOU

This is sad even for you.

[Tgo01]

I don't think they want to, but lnet is inextricably linked with the game. What happens on it may affect the public perception of their product, so it is not irrational for them to attempt to exercise control over what happens on it. They have no real ability to do so other than pulling the plug on lnet; they know they can't without killing the product, so they are in a position where they have to accept the negatives of an unregulated product in exchange for the commercial benefit it brings.

Ultimately, if something bad happens on lnet, it will in some measure be attributable to Simu because they had the ability to end it. Instead of doing so, they implicitly encouraged and directly profited from it.

I don't think so. It's not a company's responsibility to monitor anything that happens outside of their product. Sure people could tie the two together even if they are wrong to do so, it's one of those damned if you do and damned if you don't situations.

But of the two situations to find themselves in it's better to take the stance of "We don't condone what happens on this third party site and we have no control over it" rather than "Yes we actively monitor and take reports seriously of what happens on third party sites."

The latter makes Simu seem like they are more involved in third party sites than the former.

[Wyrom]

Again, I think if we created a way to Anonymize our actual names in Lich, maybe replace our actual name with Random Name Generator or Anonymous1, Anonymous2 etc. this will help in protecting the privacy and free speech on Lich and give Wyrom an excuse to not worry about what goes on Lich (since now all the Lich handles don’t have to correspond to the in-game names).

Not sure how difficult this will be to implement but apparently there’s already a work-around by Kaldonis. Turning that into a “;” command might be too hard? Not sure, not a coder unfortunately.

I wouldn't worry too much about lnet being monitored even by reports. After today, I'll make sure it's not something we'll have to address. Unfortunately, this all started because at least a few people had a problem with some of the terms being thrown out. Many players, especially new ones, don't realize Lich isn't supported by Simutronics. Most players are directed to Lich shortly after they connect with others in game.

Could I have done a better job? Sure. I'm not even arguing that fact. It's why I came on the PC to talk in the first place after someone told me a thread came out of the exchange.

We realize Lich is a boon to the game, and there isn't any need to read between the lines here. Lnet can be a bit abrasive at times. I'm not going to repeat what was said here, but either way, things won't continue with me asking anyone to stop calling people names.

[Luntz]

So someone just spoofed my name on lnet, I think to prove a point and chatted as me, I couldn't even see it on zaoloo only my alts. Good job thoroughly looking into things before having me read policy though.

[Murrandii]

I don't think so. It's not a company's responsibility to monitor anything that happens outside of their product. Sure people could tie the two together even if they are wrong to do so, it's one of those damned if you do and damned if you don't situations.

But of the two situations to find themselves in it's better to take the stance of "We don't condone what happens on this third party site and we have no control over it" rather than "Yes we actively monitor and take reports seriously of what happens on third party sites."

The latter makes Simu seem like they are more involved in third party sites than the former.

Considerating the following:

1) You need to subscribe to play.net in order to use their products (gs4)
2) You need to have an account to be logged to gemstone4 in order to use their products (gs4)
3) Your login and password to access gemstone4 are kept inside ;lich
4) you accept the TOS to play the game (by logging to your account)
5) To use ;lich, you need to be logged in gs4.
6) When logged, you can use the script that affect your ingame experience
7) In order to ;chat ingame by using ;lich, you need to be logged on your gs4 account.

I could continue on and on.

Legally, I'M 99,9% positive Simu/stillfront are responsable if anything happens bad on lnet. Zaoloo opened a pandora'x box here people.

[Astray]

This opens up a dangerous avenue because if we're talking 0 tolerance EVERYWHERE, that means if I call someone an 'asshole' on any other platform or media, I can be punished for having literally nothing to do with Simutronics.

I'm aware of how caustic and vile some people on LNet can be but fucking man up and ignore them. Fuck letting a company decide what I can and cannot do or say. I nearly fucking died defending the right to call someone an asshole. Don't fucking take your finger and wag it at me because someones feelings got hurt.

Be some goddamn adults and IGNORE that shit.

[Stumplicker]

Here's a question nobody's asked yet - On whose authority are you policing third party software now? Simutronics? Stillfront? Who gave you the permission to act officially on behalf of the company outside of that company's official channels?

[tyrant-201]

This opens up a dangerous avenue because if we're talking 0 tolerance EVERYWHERE, that means if I call someone an 'asshole' on any other platform or media, I can be punished for having literally nothing to do with Simutronics.

I'm aware of how caustic and vile some people on LNet can be but fucking man up and ignore them. Fuck letting a company decide what I can and cannot do or say. I nearly fucking died defending the right to call someone an asshole. Don't fucking take your finger and wag it at me because someones feelings got hurt.

Be some goddamn adults and IGNORE that shit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19mnzmf4rMQ

[OmegaMoo]

Considerating the following:

1) You need to subscribe to play.net in order to use their products (gs4)
2) You need to have an account to be logged to gemstone4 in order to use their products (gs4)
3) Your login and password to access gemstone4 are kept inside ;lich
4) you accept the TOS to play the game (by logging to your account)
5) To use ;lich, you need to be logged in gs4.
6) When logged, you can use the script that affect your ingame experience
7) In order to ;chat ingame by using ;lich, you need to be logged on your gs4 account.

I could continue on and on.

Legally, I'M 99,9% positive Simu/stillfront are responsable if anything happens bad on lnet. Zaoloo opened a pandora'x box here people.

While all 7 "followings" are indeed correct, you completely missed

8) LNET channels / chat ARE NOT SEEN IN GAME NOR IN GAME

9) Simutronics DOES NOT support 3rd party software

10) If they are allowed to police / ban because somebody got butthurt because they refused to ;ignore person, ;untune channel then that means your facebook, twitter, twitch, youtube, etc etc etc is subject to the wrath of Simu because you called somebody a bad name that plays Gemstone.


See the point yet, Spock?

[Kaldonis]

This just in:

[LNet]-GSIV:Zaoloo: "HAI!" (22:01:19)
[LNet]-GSIV:Zaoloo: "Hello Kitty is my favorite. And I like the color pink. I especially love Justin Timberlake" (22:01:54)

[AnOrdim]

The hottest of hot takes.

[Astray]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19mnzmf4rMQ

LOL

I support their right to scrub balls though!

[Astru]

[LNet]-GSIV:Lnetpolice: "Please do not take my name in vain" (22:18:25)
lol

[Tgo01]

Legally, I'M 99,9% positive Simu/stillfront are responsable if anything happens bad on lnet.

You are 100% incorrect.

Is Comcast responsible for shit that happens on LNet/Simu since I pay Comcast for the internet connection I use to access LNet/Simu.

[Kaldonis]

I'd be curious to check, but a couple years back I heard it was easy to Wireshark anyone's Simu account in a cafe, since it was all plaintext.

Maybe the upgraded security which tracks gasp case entry has already resolved this?

Does anyone know if we can still grab passwords on public wifi? I never tried, but I heard that used to be a cinch (but was irrelevant, since the player base is statistically too small for likely intercept).

[Murrandii]

You are 100% incorrect.

Is Comcast responsible for shit that happens on LNet/Simu since I pay Comcast for the internet connection I use to access LNet/Simu.

Depends how accessible the data/proof is.

IF you commit an illegal act on lnet it will go something like this: (Let's pretend something terrible)…


The police will receive the complaint. The Sergent-Detective will contact the company running the game asking the data. You think the company (stillfront/simu) will say they do not control that third party? I totally think Simu will force Tillmen to give them the data.. but let's pretend he won't.

Who do you think they'll ask after? Your provider. Same stuff happened when people were bittorrenting stuff, company sent complaints to the internet providers and they were legally obliged to sent them the use of their users.

[Hightower]

Bullshit. You had to stop what you were doing to speak with us because you were caught redhanded overstepping your bounds while acting in an official capacity and now your position is in jeopardy.

Nobody is eager to defend Zaoloo here. That's how badly your reputation has been tarnished over the years. The things you've done have taken you beyond the point of redemption to when you overstep this badly, we'll jump to anyone's defense. Even Zaoloo's. You have nobody's interests or well-being in mind but your own.

It has nothing to do with how I personally feel about Wyrom or Zaoloo. It's the overreach. Simutronics has no business applying policy to things said outside of their product. Further, the solution is simple and obvious: Advise the offended parties to simply use the ignore feature or not use the software. We should not even be having this discussion. The fact is Wyrom over-stepped. Plain and simple. If I were him, I'd acknowledge the fact and move on. Then we can all go back to enjoying Gemstone, hating Zaoloo, and choosing whether or not we want to take the good with the bad when it comes to LNet.

~Taverkin

[Murrandii]

I'd be curious to check, but a couple years back I heard it was easy to Wireshark anyone's Simu account in a cafe, since it was all plaintext.

Maybe the upgraded security which tracks gasp case entry has already resolved this?

Does anyone know if we can still grab passwords on public wifi? I never tried, but I heard that used to be a cinch (but was irrelevant, since the player base is statistically too small for likely intercept).

First thing they should teach at the "online security" course: NEVER send anything security sensible over a public wifi

You get intercepted in a matter of seconds. I know some people that lost money cause they wanted to use cheap public wifi in Cuba

[Stumplicker]

Depends how accessible the data/proof is.

IF you commit an illegal act on lnet it will go something like this: (Let's pretend something terrible)…


The police will receive the complaint. The Sergent-Detective will contact the company running the game asking the data. You think the company (stillfront/simu) will say they do not control that third party? I totally think Simu will force Tillmen to give them the data.. but let's pretend he won't.

Who do you think they'll ask after? Your provider. Same stuff happened when people were bittorrenting stuff, company sent complaints to the internet providers and they were legally obliged to sent them the use of their users.

That's what you feel happened? You think Simutronics had their lawyer send a certified letter to Tillmen requesting server logs, then Tillmen gave those logs to the company, which, sure, maybe he would, then Simutronics verified that the data was legitimate and decided to police Zaoloo?

No. If Wyrom had been acting on anyone's authority but his own, he would have never come here to try to shift blame when it started blowing up in his face. He claims that word came down from above him to do this. Not a chance. If he was backed by anyone he would never have showed up here. I suspect that Zaoloo was a player who he felt he wanted to ban but had no policy reason to do so, so he set out to make a paper trail towards getting rid of him.

He overstepped, went out on a limb without permission, and got caught, and now he wants it to quietly go away. No such luck.

[Tgo01]

Depends how accessible the data/proof is.

IF you commit an illegal act on lnet it will go something like this: (Let's pretend something terrible)…


The police will receive the complaint. The Sergent-Detective will contact the company running the game asking the data. You think the company (stillfront/simu) will say they do not control that third party? I totally think Simu will force Tillmen to give them the data.. but let's pretend he won't.

Who do you think they'll ask after? Your provider. Same stuff happened when people were bittorrenting stuff, company sent complaints to the internet providers and they were legally obliged to sent them the use of their users.

Informing someone they are committing a crime and telling them to knock it off is one thing, legally holding Comcast responsible for what their users do? I don't think so.

[Taernath]

I still wanna know who got trolled so hard on lnet they reported it.

[HJFudge]

This the hill you guys are choosing to die on, huh?

How dare someone else say 'Hey maybe tone it down with the personal attacks' to someone else. Did someone get banned? Or locked out? Or...anything? They were told to read POLICY 3. Did I miss something in the log?

Better burn them to the ground.

But anyway, fun read. Really. Thanks guys. Your insanity makes me feel like a better person.

[Tgo01]

This the hill you guys are choosing to die on, huh?

How dare someone else say 'Hey maybe tone it down with the personal attacks' to someone else. Did someone get banned? Or locked out? Or...anything? They were told to read POLICY 3. Did I miss something in the log?

Better burn them to the ground.

But anyway, fun read. Really. Thanks guys. Your insanity makes me feel like a better person.

Androidpk is now on the same level as HJFudge. How embarrassing...for both of them.

[Wrathbringer]

I still wanna know who got trolled so hard on lnet they reported it.

This is correct.

[Drexen]

This the hill you guys are choosing to die on, huh?

How dare someone else say 'Hey maybe tone it down with the personal attacks' to someone else. Did someone get banned? Or locked out? Or...anything? They were told to read POLICY 3. Did I miss something in the log?

Better burn them to the ground.

But anyway, fun read. Really. Thanks guys. Your insanity makes me feel like a better person.

You just insulted people on a 3rd party forum, how would you like to be pulled aside in game for it?

[Wrathbringer]

You just insulted people on a 3rd party forum, how would you like to be pulled aside in game for it?

This is also correct.

[Androidpk]

Androidpk is now on the same level as HJFudge. How embarrassing...for both of them.

Keep trolling, loser.

[Taernath]

This the hill you guys are choosing to die on, huh?

How dare someone else say 'Hey maybe tone it down with the personal attacks' to someone else. Did someone get banned? Or locked out? Or...anything? They were told to read POLICY 3. Did I miss something in the log?

Better burn them to the ground.

But anyway, fun read. Really. Thanks guys. Your insanity makes me feel like a better person.

Who's dying on what hill? It's you and maybe one other person beside Wyrom that seem to think no overreach happened here.

[HJFudge]

You know what normal people do, when they are told 'Hey don't call people names?'

They go 'Oh my bad, I'll tone it down.'

You know what fucking nuts people do?

They wrap themselves in some moral self righteousness and go on a big rant, in which they personally attack others and try to make a mountain out of a molehill because really how dare someone say something about what they did?

You know we're all making fun of you guys, right?

[SonoftheNorth]

This the hill you guys are choosing to die on, huh?

How dare someone else say 'Hey maybe tone it down with the personal attacks' to someone else. Did someone get banned? Or locked out? Or...anything? They were told to read POLICY 3. Did I miss something in the log?

Better burn them to the ground.

But anyway, fun read. Really. Thanks guys. Your insanity makes me feel like a better person.

I'd like this person banned for saying I was going to die on a hill and threatening to burn my house down.

[Tgo01]

Who's dying on what hill? It's you and maybe one other person beside Wyrom that seem to think no overreach happened here.

Ironically each and every person who has cheered Wyrom's actions here have at the same time insulted wide swaths of people who play the game. I guess they're happy as long as it only affects LNet.

[Ruh]

Lot of people acting like its your right to play Gemstone. Its a business, if you have a negative impact on that business, they can give you the boot. Basically don't be an asshole.

[SonoftheNorth]

Lot of people acting like its your right to play Gemstone. Its a business, if you have a negative impact on that business, they can give you the boot. Basically don't be an asshole.

Won't be for much longer if they ban people for drama on other platforms.

[Stumplicker]

Lot of people acting like its your right to play Gemstone. Its a business, if you have a negative impact on that business, they can give you the boot. Basically don't be an asshole.

Of course it's a business. They can deny service to anyone they so choose if that person breaks their terms of service or at the end of their service period. The key element here is if they break the terms of service, which the person involved did not do. That person is under contract with Simutronics, Inc. for a 30 day period, and has agreed to their end user license agreement and policies. That person broke none of those policies, but was harassed by an upper management level employee of Simutronics Incorporated who accused him of wrongdoing outside of Simutronics' servers, with zero evidence to back that claim up.

That is not only a breach of contract on behalf of Simutronics, Inc, but also harassment in the eyes of the law. The question is - Was this the action of Simutronics, Inc. as a whole, Stillfront Group, or a single rogue employee acting of their own volition?

[SonoftheNorth]

Put something ingame policy that lnet is in no way affiliated or endorsed by simutronics or gemstone IV. Start rollin out those simucoin name changes, it's a moneymaker and not allowing them is just lipservice with character transfers everyone does anyway, and actually hinders gameplay imo. Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women. BOOM.

[Taernath]

They wrap themselves in some moral self righteousness and go on a big rant, in which they personally attack others and try to make a mountain out of a molehill because really how dare someone say something about what they did?

You're willfully missing the bigger issue here. Wyrom took easily faked, second-hand reports off third-party software as evidence of wrongdoing and threatened to invoke policy 3.


You know we're all making fun of you guys, right?

Who's 'we'? This better not be a 'I'm getting dozens of PMs from people that agree with me' situation.

[Hightower]

This the hill you guys are choosing to die on, huh?

How dare someone else say 'Hey maybe tone it down with the personal attacks' to someone else. Did someone get banned? Or locked out? Or...anything? They were told to read POLICY 3. Did I miss something in the log?

Better burn them to the ground.

But anyway, fun read. Really. Thanks guys. Your insanity makes me feel like a better person.


From one of my earlier posts in the thread:

"Don't get me wrong. Had you done this in the form of asking a personal favor ("Hey, Zaoloo, we've had some complaints. Do you think you could tone it down a little bit on LNet?), then I wouldn't see a problem. This is a small community and such things are not unheard of here. But that's not what you did. You monitored and then you pulled Zaoloo aside in an official capacity to provide an informal warning regarding policy. That absolutely is policing LNet. And I get that Zaoloo is a scumbag. We all know it. Heck, he probably wears a t-shirt that says "Scumbag" with an arrow pointing toward his face and never washes it. But that's beside the point. You overstepped."

I say a lot of stupid shit on LNet myself, but I'm not out to ruin anyone's day. I'm just messing around. So had I been approached by Wyrom or any other GM telling me I was really bothering someone and asking if I could tone it down, absolutely I would. And I wouldn't even care that they were "monitoring" LNet. I mean, it's open to everyone, right? It would be naive to assume that GMs don't listen in. But it crosses a line with me when they attempt to enforce policy based on what is said on LNet. In my opinion, that's none of their business and you don't get to play the "friend" card with me when acting in an official enforcement capacity.

So, no, there's nothing unreasonable about asking Zaoloo to shut the fuck up. I mean, I do it pretty much daily. But that's really beside the point here.

~Taverkin

[Astray]

Lot of people acting like its your right to play Gemstone. Its a business, if you have a negative impact on that business, they can give you the boot. Basically don't be an asshole.

Your right to boot me flies out the window the moment I am no longer engaging in your content or services.

[Nephelem]

A breach of contract and harassment under the eyes of the law? You are a fucking idiot.

[Tgo01]

You know what normal people do, when they are told 'Hey don't call people names?'

They go 'Oh my bad, I'll tone it down.'

You know what fucking nuts people do?

They wrap themselves in some moral self righteousness and go on a big rant, in which they personally attack others and try to make a mountain out of a molehill because really how dare someone say something about what they did?

You know we're all making fun of you guys, right?

Hey don’t call people names.

[Tgo01]

Lot of people acting like its your right to play Gemstone. Its a business, if you have a negative impact on that business, they can give you the boot. Basically don't be an asshole.

Wyrom please ban this guy in game for calling me an asshole. Thanks.

[Taernath]

Wyrom please ban this guy in game for calling me an asshole. Thanks.

I feel attacked! Someone screenshot this!

[Drexen]

You need to read POLICY 3 sir. I'm submitting screenshots to the authorities right now.

[SonoftheNorth]

Wyrom please ban this guy in game for calling me an asshole. Thanks.

I can confirm I saw a screen shot of Ruh calling Tgo01 an asshole.

[Astray]

Oh shit, the slippery slope!

[Tsalin]

This is the most blown out of proportion thread of nonsense I have read in a long time.

[HJFudge]

haha I know, its delicious

[SonoftheNorth]

This is the most blown out of proportion thread of nonsense I have read in a long time.

Slurp slurp bitch (my account isn't active)

[Astray]

This is the most blown out of proportion thread of nonsense I have read in a long time.

No, it's legitimately a worrisome Policy. Not because it wants to keep things nice and PG-13 but because it purposefully restricts your right to do as you please off the platform.

For the exact mock scenario before you began posting. It's an exaggeration but it only takes one time for it to work and the shit show begins.

[SonoftheNorth]

Yeah what if a GM is on their player character and you don't know they are a GM to suck their cock and you somehow offend them, they should just be able to ban you for no reason, it's their game!!!

[audioserf]

This is the most blown out of proportion thread of nonsense I have read in a long time.

Snitch.

[Ruh]

you shouldn't be sucking cock all willy-nilly.

[SonoftheNorth]

you shouldn't be sucking cock all willy-nilly.

jealoussss

[Ruh]

jealoussss

maybe a little

[Tgo01]

Kind of weird how half of the people who are defending Wyrom's actions here haven't posted in a long time before this thread.

"My 'Wyrom is in trouble' sense are tingling!"

[Ruh]

Kind of weird how half of the people who are defending Wyrom's actions here haven't posted in a long time before this thread.

"My 'Wyrom is in trouble' sense are tingling!"

that's your lack of a moral compass

[HJFudge]

Kind of weird how half of the people who are defending Wyrom's actions here haven't posted in a long time before this thread.

"My 'Wyrom is in trouble' sense are tingling!"

I've a standing request for folks to link me breakdowns, nutso rants, and other fun things. I was given this to peruse and it did not disappoint.

[Tgo01]

that's your lack of a moral compass

So it's the "moral" thing to have a private company police what people do and say outside of their platform?

I made a Venn diagram that I think is probably pretty accurate.

9221

Also it's a Venn diagram for ants.

[Tgo01]

I've a standing request for folks to link me breakdowns, nutso rants, and other fun things. I was given this to peruse and it did not disappoint.

Wyrom can you please ban this guy in game for referring to me as "nutso"? It is really affecting my enjoyment of the game. Thanks.

[Gelston]

I think the thread has really run its course. Wyrom said this won't be happening again. Of course now if it does this thread will explode again.

[SonoftheNorth]

I wouldn't want the responsibility to track all of us lunatics across multiple platforms, then something really scummy does happen and people say "WHY DIDN'T YOU DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT, THEY KNEW THE WHOLE TIME" I'd rather say hey we don't enforce 3rd party shit, and say you do ban someone, congrats you just lost zaoloos accounts in a dying game with an extremely shrinking player base that you've admittedly had to taken measures to ensure survives. Yeah maybe that wouldn't be a big loss, but when it's someone who is less of a piece of shit?

[SonoftheNorth]

And ok you ban zaoloo for something like that, and he constantly makes new fake facebook accounts and spams the shit outta the official facebook page in revenge then you have to disable comments there, that's even more drama and looks worse. Tell whoever is crying about his insults to block him, you don't moderate lnet. Case closed.

[Tgo01]

I think the thread has really run its course. Wyrom said this won't be happening again. Of course now if it does this thread will explode again.

Yeah but now it's mostly all of the stragglers who have to defend everything Simu does and they're late to the party but they want to have their say anyways. You expect me to just ignore those posts? You know I can't do that.

[Gelston]

Yeah but now it's mostly all of the stragglers who have to defend everything Simu does and they're late to the party but they want to have their say anyways. You expect me to just ignore those posts? You know I can't do that.

Just threaten to end dreavenings if they dont shut up

[Stumplicker]

Just threaten to end dreavenings if they dont shut up

Confirmed Gelston is Gellert. I CALLED IT FIRST!! poundsign retroactivelycorrectafterall

[SonoftheNorth]

Just threaten to end dreavenings if they dont shut up

That's more within his right than anything else mentioned.

[SonoftheNorth]

Confirmed Gelston is Gellert. I CALLED IT FIRST!! poundsign retroactivelycorrectafterall

Imagine we get simucoin name changes and you don't have to launder your characters after stalking naamit anymore...FRESH SLATEEEEE

[Tyronebiggums]

Of course it's a business. They can deny service to anyone they so choose if that person breaks their terms of service or at the end of their service period. The key element here is if they break the terms of service, which the person involved did not do. That person is under contract with Simutronics, Inc. for a 30 day period, and has agreed to their end user license agreement and policies. That person broke none of those policies, but was harassed by an upper management level employee of Simutronics Incorporated who accused him of wrongdoing outside of Simutronics' servers, with zero evidence to back that claim up.

That is not only a breach of contract on behalf of Simutronics, Inc, but also harassment in the eyes of the law. The question is - Was this the action of Simutronics, Inc. as a whole, Stillfront Group, or a single rogue employee acting of their own volition?

Have you read their TOS? Because I can say with almost certainty, without myself reading the any of it, that they have to right to cancel anyone’s subscription with appropriate refunding of subscription fees at any time. They’re not obligated to let anyone play, it’s a private entity. Good luck getting the police involved; might as well alert the ACLU and Reverend Al while you’re at it. And while I agree Lich/Lnet and PC shouldn’t fall within the domain of Simu, the hard on you have for Wyrom is ridiculous. #Lichtoo

[AnOrdim]

Because I can say with almost certainty, without myself reading the any of it, that they have to right to cancel anyone’s subscription with appropriate refunding of subscription fees at any time.

Can confirm this is the case.

[Tgo01]

Have you read their TOS? Because I can say with almost certainty, without myself reading the any of it, that they have to right to cancel anyone’s subscription with appropriate refunding of subscription fees at any time. They’re not obligated to let anyone play, it’s a private entity. Good luck getting the police involved; might as well alert the ACLU and Reverend Al while you’re at it. And while I agree Lich/Lnet and PC shouldn’t fall within the domain of Simu, the hard on you have for Wyrom is ridiculous. #Lichtoo

Yeah, as long as Simu isn't telling anyone "You can't play this game because you're black" or something similar to that effect then legally Simu can pretty much ban anyone they want at anytime. I don't think this is a legal issue, just a shitty policy.

[Stumplicker]

Yeah, as long as Simu isn't telling anyone "You can't play this game because you're black" or something similar to that effect then legally Simu can pretty much ban anyone they want at anytime. I don't think this is a legal issue, just a shitty policy.

Yep, you're right. I just read through their most recent end user license agreement, so I'll withdraw that. Incidentally that license agreement hasn't been updated since Cyberstrike 2 was a thing. It's only available that I can see on Cyberstrike's website. Assuming it's the same, they can cancel you anytime, and also any money you've paid for service cannot be refunded or converted to cash. Meaning not only will they not refund your paid balance, but also any simucoins you may have purchased can't be refunded, so don't be caught with any unspent coins either.

Absolutely it is harassment with a rogue employee going after a person with zero evidence of wrongdoing though.

[SonoftheNorth]

So are people believing that people sent him screens or he read zaoloos game window history and doesn't wanna admit it?
if you type ;lnet suck my cock bitches into the game window but it isn't a gs verb you think they aren't able to see that?

[Taernath]

I don't think anyone doubts GMs watch lnet, and they can also see user inputs, which has come up a few times over the years.

[SonoftheNorth]

I don’t believe the “;lnet” commands are actually part of the game. I say this because I wrote a script solely based on “;lnet” commands I would come back after an hour and I would always be logged off, one time I finally scrolled above and found that I was logged for inactivity (my script never sent actions into the game itself just kept tabs on lnet chat). Therefore, you can reasonably assume that “;lnet” commands never enter the game at any point. Again, an assumption.

you're typing it into the game window, just because it isn't a responsive command doesn't mean it isn't sent

[AnOrdim]

if you type ;lnet suck my cock bitches into the game window but it isn't a gs verb you think they aren't able to see that?
Lich runs a local server that all your commands are sent through first and then either processed by lich or sent to the GS servers proper. The semicolon defines which goes where. So yeah, if you are running lich and type ";anything you want" they can't see that. If you start off with ; anything after it is parsed by lich only. I believe that also works in the other direction, so all the incoming traffic from the game client goes through lich first and then goes to the local client you have running for the game.

[Parkbandit]

It has nothing to do with how I personally feel about Wyrom or Zaoloo. It's the overreach. Simutronics has no business applying policy to things said outside of their product. Further, the solution is simple and obvious: Advise the offended parties to simply use the ignore feature or not use the software. We should not even be having this discussion. The fact is Wyrom over-stepped. Plain and simple. If I were him, I'd acknowledge the fact and move on. Then we can all go back to enjoying Gemstone, hating Zaoloo, and choosing whether or not we want to take the good with the bad when it comes to LNet.

~Taverkin


https://media.giphy.com/media/2Wf4evHz9Yd7Y8mPNR/giphy.gif

[Parkbandit]

You know what normal people do, when they are told 'Hey don't call people names?'

They go 'Oh my bad, I'll tone it down.'

You know what fucking nuts people do?

They wrap themselves in some moral self righteousness and go on a big rant, in which they personally attack others and try to make a mountain out of a molehill because really how dare someone say something about what they did?

You know we're all making fun of you guys, right?

I hope Wyrom pulls you up and forces you to read POLICY.

And honestly... What would you know about normal people?

[SonoftheNorth]

Lich runs a local server that all your commands are sent through first and then either processed by lich or sent to the GS servers proper. The semicolon defines which goes where. So yeah, if you are running lich and type ";anything you want" they can't see that. If you start off with ; anything after it is parsed by lich only. I believe that also works in the other direction, so all the incoming traffic from the game client goes through lich first and then goes to the local client you have running for the game.

Well that's good at least

[Pereus]

So long Gemstone.

[Zaigh]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CncmH70WEAEQ_k2.jpg

[Hightower]

I know many of you don't read the official forums, but Wyrom posted this announcement there a little while ago:

"A handful of situations have occurred recently that are causing us to alter the language used in POLICY 3. The most recent situation that has occurred is concerning Lich's lnet function and what is and isn't covered by POLICY 3. We also had an issue within the last 60 days where a player was threatened with violence over an unofficial Discord server's voice channel. And finally, we had another unofficial Discord server bullying a few players that were being accused of violating POLICY 18, when they were not.

While we want to keep our players from being involved in disruptive behavior that they do not consent to, we have to draw the line where we can uphold our policy. That line being in-game, our forums, our wiki, and our official Discord server. It will need to be the player's responsibility to participate in unofficial areas and deal with how it's moderated.

POLICY 3 will have an update to specifically name areas where POLICY cannot be enforced shortly."

Thank you, Wyrom, for being perfectly clear on this. If I may say so, you did the right thing.

~Taverkin

[SonoftheNorth]

I know many of you don't read the official forums, but Wyrom posted this announcement there a little while ago:

"A handful of situations have occurred recently that are causing us to alter the language used in POLICY 3. The most recent situation that has occurred is concerning Lich's lnet function and what is and isn't covered by POLICY 3. We also had an issue within the last 60 days where a player was threatened with violence over an unofficial Discord server's voice channel. And finally, we had another unofficial Discord server bullying a few players that were being accused of violating POLICY 18, when they were not.

While we want to keep our players from being involved in disruptive behavior that they do not consent to, we have to draw the line where we can uphold our policy. That line being in-game, our forums, our wiki, and our official Discord server. It will need to be the player's responsibility to participate in unofficial areas and deal with how it's moderated.

POLICY 3 will have an update to specifically name areas where POLICY cannot be enforced shortly."

Thank you, Wyrom, for being perfectly clear on this. If I may say so, you did the right thing.

~Taverkin

Wyrom ain't all bad, I honestly wish he would continue posting here instead of making you head into north korea to discuss kim jung un's policies.

[Fortybox]

This the hill you guys are choosing to die on, huh?

How dare someone else say 'Hey maybe tone it down with the personal attacks' to someone else. Did someone get banned? Or locked out? Or...anything? They were told to read POLICY 3. Did I miss something in the log?

Better burn them to the ground.

But anyway, fun read. Really. Thanks guys. Your insanity makes me feel like a better person.

Reported for harassment. You're going to lose your account now sir. Congrats.

[Luntz]

I honestly think Wyrom is a really cool and chill dude who just wants the game to thrive but giving in to soy boy beta cucks isn't a way to get that done. Sometimes nonsense like this has to happen to clarify things. Guess I'm just a habitual line stepper.

[Fortybox]

I know many of you don't read the official forums, but Wyrom posted this announcement there a little while ago:

"A handful of situations have occurred recently that are causing us to alter the language used in POLICY 3. The most recent situation that has occurred is concerning Lich's lnet function and what is and isn't covered by POLICY 3. We also had an issue within the last 60 days where a player was threatened with violence over an unofficial Discord server's voice channel. And finally, we had another unofficial Discord server bullying a few players that were being accused of violating POLICY 18, when they were not.

While we want to keep our players from being involved in disruptive behavior that they do not consent to, we have to draw the line where we can uphold our policy. That line being in-game, our forums, our wiki, and our official Discord server. It will need to be the player's responsibility to participate in unofficial areas and deal with how it's moderated.

POLICY 3 will have an update to specifically name areas where POLICY cannot be enforced shortly."

Thank you, Wyrom, for being perfectly clear on this. If I may say so, you did the right thing.

~Taverkin

He only did it because he knows he was wrong and players can take legal action against the company.

[Murrandii]

While we want to keep our players from being involved in disruptive behavior that they do not consent to, we have to draw the line where we can uphold our policy. That line being in-game, our forums, our wiki, and our official Discord server. It will need to be the player's responsibility to participate in unofficial areas and deal with how it's moderated.




I agree, that is totally acceptable. Zaoloo, I hope you realize you did something good, indirectly.

[SonoftheNorth]

can take legal action against the company.

I doubt it.

[SonoftheNorth]

They can all quit, but I doubt you're winning a lawsuit over him telling zaoloo to stop calling people cum guzzling queers

[Seran]

A third party software which is free to use for one is free to use for all, no matter whether they're players or staff. So why are folks getting bent out of shape about someone being called out for being an asshat? Simutronics and it's successor corporation reserve the right to refuse service to anyone and it's terms of service don't limit their investigations in any way to third party software, websites or any other source for that matter. Your Constitutional rights to free speech and association do not guarantee your access to continued membership to a commercial service whose terms of service you violated; regardless of the source of that violation.

[Tgo01]

So why are folks getting bent out of shape about someone being called out for being an asshat?

Because I don't want a corporation to start policing social media/third party websites/whatever and using that as a basis for which customers they will and will not allow to use their service.

This is some straight up fascist tactics.

[Parkbandit]

A third party software which is free to use for one is free to use for all, no matter whether they're players or staff. So why are folks getting bent out of shape about someone being called out for being an asshat? Simutronics and it's successor corporation reserve the right to refuse service to anyone and it's terms of service don't limit their investigations in any way to third party software, websites or any other source for that matter. Your Constitutional rights to free speech and association do not guarantee your access to continued membership to a commercial service whose terms of service you violated; regardless of the source of that violation.

So, you didn't understand a single thing that was discussed here.

Funny.. Wyrom did and changed the policy to reflect reality.

[Seran]

Because I don't want a corporation to start policing social media/third party websites/whatever and using that as a basis for which customers they will and will not allow to use their service.

This is some straight up fascist tactics.

Fascist?

Someone was being a bully and was violating the policy of the game that a glorified chat and scripting program overlays and was spoken to about it. How is that different than a school teacher who breaks up the same sort of harassment in the classroom or during break? Are they too puppets of an authoritarian regime out to over-police the rights of bullies to target others? A corporation is free to use whatever means of protecting it's customer base from those who make the game less enjoyable for others.

Your opinion is valid, however it's a knee jerk reaction to someone being called out over doing something bad.

[Fortybox]

Fascist?

Someone was being a bully and was violating the policy of the game that a glorified chat and scripting program overlays and was spoken to about it. How is that different than a school teacher who breaks up the same sort of harassment in the classroom or during break? Are they too puppets of an authoritarian regime out to over-police the rights of bullies to target others? A corporation is free to use whatever means of protecting it's customer base from those who make the game less enjoyable for others.

Your opinion is valid, however it's a knee jerk reaction to someone being called out over doing something bad.

You're dumb.

[Gelston]

Fascist?

Someone was being a bully and was violating the policy of the game that a glorified chat and scripting program overlays and was spoken to about it. How is that different than a school teacher who breaks up the same sort of harassment in the classroom or during break? Are they too puppets of an authoritarian regime out to over-police the rights of bullies to target others? A corporation is free to use whatever means of protecting it's customer base from those who make the game less enjoyable for others.

Your opinion is valid, however it's a knee jerk reaction to someone being called out over doing something bad.

And regardless they were doing it outside the game. In an area they cant prove who is who.

[Tgo01]

Fascist?

Yes.


Someone was being a bully and was violating the policy of the game that a glorified chat and scripting program overlays and was spoken to about it. How is that different than a school teacher who breaks up the same sort of harassment in the classroom or during break? Are they too puppets of an authoritarian regime out to over-police the rights of bullies to target others?

I would say the difference is bullying typically involves physical confrontation. Also the biggest difference would be children compared to adults and the fact that we're talking about children trying to receive an education and someone is interfering with said education. Thirdly it's almost impossible to "ignore" bullies in real life, especially if they are kicking the shit out of you, whereas on LNet it's as simple as typing ;ignore <insert name here>.


A corporation is free to use whatever means of protecting it's customer base from those who make the game less enjoyable for others.

You're absolutely right that the law is on Simu's side here to engage in this type of behavior if they wish, but I wouldn't want to be a customer of said company where I have to watch what I say outside of the game lest someone take offense and I suddenly find myself locked out of the game.


Your opinion is valid, however it's a knee jerk reaction to someone being called out over doing something bad.

I am by no means a fan of Luntz, he's constantly harassing me on LNet, but I never once thought it was any of Simu's business. The last thing we need is for companies to keep a database of "undesirable" customers based on social media.

[Hightower]

This is pure speculation but I think this was entirely or partially setup by Wyrom. He knows he has full authority over the officials, wiki, and discord but Lichnet he wasn’t sure of but Lichnet was too sweet a prize not to attempt. So he tested the waters a bit try to gauge our reaction? Anyone know Wyrom irl? is he clever enough to pull something like this off? lol

https://i.giphy.com/media/5VjhqGfoCAnni/giphy.gif

It is pure speculation, and judging by many of the posts in this thread a lot of people seem to have personal issues with Wyrom and tend to assume sinister motives in everything he does. I think it's at least as likely that he was trying to do the right thing, but over-stepped his authority. Like I said before, I wouldn't have had any issue with him asking Zaoloo to tone it down, but doing so in an official capacity as an informal warning was taking it too far. Was it some sort of power grab or a test to see if we'd tolerate it? I seriously doubt it.

He's not Darth Vader, guys. Cmon!

~Taverkin

[HJFudge]

First they came for the people using racial slurs and targeting others to harass them in multiple forums and on multiple platforms.

Then they came for....no Im just kidding they stopped cause really what did you think was going to happen here?

N U T S

[Tgo01]

First they came for the people using racial slurs and targeting others to harass them in multiple forums and on multiple platforms.

Then they came for....no Im just kidding they stopped cause really what did you think was going to happen here?

N U T S

It's already more than "coming for the racists."

Did you even read Wyrom's updated official stance on this? Of the three cases he mentioned ONE dealt with death threats, one dealt with LNet but he didn't specify what the complaint was, and the final one dealt with people bullying other people because they thought they were afk scripting.

So your narrative is already shit before it even started. But you're just one step above Androidpk in the retard Olympics so I don't expect much from you.

[HJFudge]

Its 'coming for the people harassing and threatening others'

We gotta protect em guyz!! OUR CIVIL LIBURDIES

Hahahahahahahaha *points and laughs at you*

[Gelston]

Its 'coming for the people harassing and threatening others'

We gotta protect em guyz!! OUR CIVIL LIBURDIES

Hahahahahahahaha *points and laughs at you*

I mean, Wyrom already said he isn't going to do this again, so really, you're just disagreeing with him now. The fact is, you can spoof a name on LNet. Simu doesn't run it, they can't know for sure if the person saying is actually the same person in game. How would you like being banned from GS because someone spoofed your name and just started saying all this racist trash?

It is broader than what you are making it.

[Tgo01]

Its 'coming for the people harassing and threatening others'

We gotta protect em guyz!! OUR CIVIL LIBURDIES

Hahahahahahahaha *points and laughs at you*

It's always cute watching retards think they are making good points.

[Alastir]

I mean, Wyrom already said he isn't going to do this again, so really, you're just disagreeing with him now. The fact is, you can spoof a name on LNet. Simu doesn't run it, they can't know for sure if the person saying is actually the same person in game. How would you like being banned from GS because someone spoofed your name and just started saying all this racist trash?

It is broader than what you are making it.


Someone said you can't spoof a name that is password protected. Not sure if that's true, but that means 99% of the people on lnet can't be spoofed.

[Gelston]

Someone said you can't spoof a name that is password protected. Not sure if that's true, but that means 99% of the people on lnet can't be spoofed.

You can for that game instance. I could make a DR account and make an Alastir there and be you. A lot of people are retarded as fuck and would think it is you.

Either way, you SHOULD password protect your LNet names. Most people do not.

[Neveragain]

I wouldn't worry too much about lnet being monitored even by reports. After today, I'll make sure it's not something we'll have to address. Unfortunately, this all started because at least a few people had a problem with some of the terms being thrown out. Many players, especially new ones, don't realize Lich isn't supported by Simutronics. Most players are directed to Lich shortly after they connect with others in game.

Could I have done a better job? Sure. I'm not even arguing that fact. It's why I came on the PC to talk in the first place after someone told me a thread came out of the exchange.

We realize Lich is a boon to the game, and there isn't any need to read between the lines here. Lnet can be a bit abrasive at times. I'm not going to repeat what was said here, but either way, things won't continue with me asking anyone to stop calling people names.

A step in the right direction.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/a27293d4c69a27cb2b258c4433ba83da/tenor.gif?itemid=5645497

[Seran]

I don't think that anyone has failed to notice that most of you are just here to attack one of the leaders of the game this forum is dedicated to. Do any of you actually play anymore?

[Neveragain]

I don't think that anyone has failed to notice that most of you are just here to attack one of the leaders of the game this forum is dedicated to. Do any of you actually play anymore?

I don't think that's the case at all. I think there's a handful of players that use the GM's as their righthink police and it's becoming an issue. Personally I think these GM's need to start handing out warnings for people that put in assists for trivial playground bullshit.

There's nothing worse than the type of people that are in the supervisors office on a daily basis.

[Tgo01]

Do any of you actually play anymore?

Yes.

[Kaldonis]

Someone said you can't spoof a name that is password protected. Not sure if that's true, but that means 99% of the people on lnet can't be spoofed.

Most characters probably don't have a password attached to LNet. The only people likely to (before this thread) were people who upload to the repo and the mapdb (because you are required to set up a password for that). It's actually a little confusing, because the first time you try it's asking you for a password when there is none, and then you set one up.

Zaoloo got spoofed even during this thread (I posted a log, it wasn't invented), until he set one up later on last night.

I spoof as Kaldonis when I'm playing an alt sometimes to chat as the character most well-known, or people come along in mechanics discussions with "who are you what would you know" nonsense. Even so, I don't think any of my alts have passwords, which is over half a dozen characters. So in fact, we could easily suppose 99% of characters are not password protected.

I've also seen a GM spoofed under Shattered, and not everyone is quick as a tack to see "GSF" is not "GSIV" and catch the trick.

[Fortybox]

I don't think that anyone has failed to notice that most of you are just here to attack one of the leaders of the game this forum is dedicated to. Do any of you actually play anymore?

That is irrelevant. Most here still play and if they don't, it's because of poor choices, like the one Wyrom made, that alienates them.

Stop being so dumb.

[SonoftheNorth]

I don't think that anyone has failed to notice that most of you are just here to attack one of the leaders of the game this forum is dedicated to. Do any of you actually play anymore?

Better not criticize the president of the united states while living in america!!!!!!!!

[Kaldonis]

As long as we are discussing LNet tricks (that we really shouldn't), here is one of my favorites


;alias add --global spam=;eq 10.times{LNet.get_data("\?", 'locate')}

What does this do? Well, you won't see anything, but go try to spam Kaldonis. Whether the target allows or even disallows your locates, they'll get spooled 10 lines of garbage to their game feed.

A good friend of mine knows I don't have any pop-ups or audible sounds for chat programs. So when he wanted to find me, he used to spam me to death with locates. But he's not a coder, so he used to just lean on the keyboard. So I coded that one to spam the life out of him even faster when he tries that.

Eventually, you would get punted from LNet etc, if you are not sparing with these kinds of requests. Indeed, there is a feature built-in to LNet where if you chat too many times in a span of time, you start saying stuff about hello kitty etc (I am verbose enough to have encountered this wall). That's the reference when Zaoloo was spoofed last night, though I am sure it wasn't Tillmen doing it to him. I even heard there was, on a time, a particularly annoying character that asked lots of questions, and Tillmen coded an internet-search bot to one-liner reply to anything chatted by this character with a question mark. He could have man-in-the-middle attacked with replacement, but anyway some of us have a sense of humor or know how to code.

Don't believe everything you read on LNet. Also, you can set up your own chat channels, which can even be private.

[Parkbandit]

I don't think that anyone has failed to notice that most of you are just here to attack one of the leaders of the game this forum is dedicated to. Do any of you actually play anymore?

So.. you would have to play the game in order to know what Wyrom did was wrong?

That's dumb.

That's like time4fun level of stupidity.

Would you like me to apply the Seran Rule to every conversation you ever have about any topic from now on?

[audioserf]

Glad to see Wyrom has pulled back on the idea of Lnet being in scope of policy. Best outcome we could have hoped for here.

[Stumplicker]

Glad to see Wyrom has pulled back on the idea of Lnet being in scope of policy. Best outcome we could have hoped for here.

A better outcome would have been that he learned something from this, but his last post here indicates that he's learned nothing and has tried to pass the blame elsewhere:


Unfortunately, this all started because at least a few people had a problem with some of the terms being thrown out.

This is incorrect. "This all started" because he did something outside of the purview of his position and once again rightly earned the scorn of the customers that keep him employed. He took direct action against the economic interests of the business for which he works and only started backpedaling because he was caught, to save his own ass.

The best outcome would be for him to be removed and someone competent, with the best interests of the game's health, put in his place.

[SonoftheNorth]

A better outcome would have been that he learned something from this, but his last post here indicates that he's learned nothing and has tried to pass the blame elsewhere:



This is incorrect. "This all started" because he did something outside of the purview of his position and once again rightly earned the scorn of the customers that keep him employed. He took direct action against the economic interests of the business for which he works and only started backpedaling because he was caught, to save his own ass.

The best outcome would be for him to be removed and someone competent, with the best interests of the game's health, put in his place.


Disagree, I think it shows promise for the future that he was willing to finally draw a line in the sand where rules will and will not be enforced and the players actually have a voice instead of him just banning anyone he thinks violates policy as staff have done in the past.

[SonoftheNorth]

GemStone IV Player Policy: High Maintenance Guests

In certain situations, the overall pattern of behavior on an account or a set of linked accounts may be determined to be disruptive or abusive, even if not one single act clearly violates any specific policy.

Simutronics reserves the right to determine what patterns of behavior are defined as "high-maintenance" or "disruptive" and may take action against the account(s). High maintenance customers (HMC) will be consulted on a case-by-case scenario.

High maintenance customers (HMC) can become locked out for the following activities:
* Continued disruptive behavior in game, on the forums, or on the wiki.
* High volume of assists, reports, and emails.

HMC status may also hinder the ability of getting timely assistance and responses from both onsite and offsite staff. HMC cannot hold a position of leadership such as an officer in an MHO, CHE, or other GM maintained group. They cannot be mentors, GameHosts, GameMaster, or any form of moderator.

Once a player is flagged as HMC, it is a permanent decision on all linked accounts, even if the account transfers hands.



Honestly they can probably ban zaoloo under that clause already. Wyrom was probably trying to be cool and tell him to knock it off but made a mistake and overstepped his bounds because it wasn't actually in-game and then he corrected himself. I don't know if you guys remember pre-wyrom days but I'd say people get in much less trouble now with him than before him. He was wrong to pull him but there were also no repercussions.

[Stunseed]

A better outcome would have been that he learned something from this, but his last post here indicates that he's learned nothing and has tried to pass the blame elsewhere:



This is incorrect. "This all started" because he did something outside of the purview of his position and once again rightly earned the scorn of the customers that keep him employed. He took direct action against the economic interests of the business for which he works and only started backpedaling because he was caught, to save his own ass.

The best outcome would be for him to be removed and someone competent, with the best interests of the game's health, put in his place.

I don't normally get into this, but this is also incorrect.

This got started because some beta-cucked mongoloid got a circle jerk of friends together to email Feedback, who is outside of Wyrom's reign. Feedback deemed it needed to say something, not Wyrom. Something this customer sensitive required Wyrom's touch, not a normal GM.

The angst game is pretty hilarious to see. If I were you guys, I would put on your sleuth hats and find out your snitch and then up your trolling game.

[audioserf]

At minimum, Tsalinx/Jeffeex was the snitch. Probably others, but he seemed especially proud of himself on Lnet yesterday.

[Neovik1]

I think people are blowing things way out of proportion in regards to what Wyrom did. Wyrom had good intentions and was trying to address an issue that was brought to his attention. I personally don't care what is said in lnet (I ignore it most of the time), but maybe we should care to some degree. Our conversations reflect on the type of community we are. When they go overboard toxic it could scare away potential new players. You can say they can unattune from lnet but the conversations are still out there and they make this community look bad.

Heck player's corner may be far worse though. I wonder how many new players stumble into this dark place and decide not to even play Gemstone. We talk about getting advertisement to bring in players to GS. These forums advertise our community behavior to all the potential new players and it's a pretty bad representation of our community. The majority of people that play gemstone are nothing like this. Most of the assholes on here don't even play the game. I don't claim to be an angel myself, I've certainly had my moments but definitely not to any extreme level.

Any way, I'll go back to my safe place since I know those comments are incoming. I just wanted to make a point that we need new blood in GS and we should stop being grumpy old farts scaring everyone away. Especially if we want the game to continue on...

[audioserf]

I think you have a fair point around new players. If their first exposure to GS, somehow, is these forums, that could be the beginning and the end. I also think it's fairly unlikely someone finds the PC before they at least log into the game itself. With respect to Lich, the default channel is HELP, and people are pretty much across the board welcoming and helpful to new players, in my experience. Even some of the saltier and less pleasant Lnet personalities pitch in to help newbies with questions on HELP. Lich isn't the hellscape you think it is, but yeah, Lnet can be pretty jarring sometimes.

[Stumplicker]

I don't normally get into this, but this is also incorrect.

This got started because some beta-cucked mongoloid got a circle jerk of friends together to email Feedback, who is outside of Wyrom's reign. Feedback deemed it needed to say something, not Wyrom. Something this customer sensitive required Wyrom's touch, not a normal GM.

The angst game is pretty hilarious to see. If I were you guys, I would put on your sleuth hats and find out your snitch and then up your trolling game.

I would agree if I believed for a second anyone's hands on this were anyone but Wyrom's. The first, middle, and last things he tried to do here were shift blame. You can't start off believing one bit, that it started "above him and was totally out of his hands, you guys", and then not believe the rest. In keeping with my disbelief of his honesty, I chose to believe none of it rather than some. He's never proven terribly honest in the past. There's no reason for him to start here now. He even said this forum was beneath his notice in this very thread and was called out for that being false based on his logins every few days.

[SonoftheNorth]

He even said this forum was beneath his notice in this very thread and was called out for that being false based on his logins every few days.

He might read his private messages and not the forums as people contact him here instead of thru official channels, I have myself in the past previously. Him logging in occasionally doesn't mean he's furiously scanning the boards.

[audioserf]

Show us on the doll where Wyrom touched you.

[Neovik1]

For me personally after all these years I don't think there is anything that can be said on lnet or here that would make my jaw drop. Maybe I'm desensitized to it all. Heck I even find entertainment from lnet once in awhile. I just don't think it paints a very good picture to new people. But I do agree that a lot of the people help each other no matter to what level a conversation gets in lnet or here. It's like having a fist fight with your brother or friend one day and then acting like it didn't even happen the next day and everything is good again.

[SonoftheNorth]

Show us on the doll where Wyrom touched you.

He banned him from the discord channel when any other high level simu employee would have permabanned him from the game.

[audioserf]

He banned him from the discord channel when any other high level simu employee would have permabanned him from the game.

I can't imagine how unbearable the Discord would be if Flimbo dragged his gigantic axe to grind over there and began popping off about Wyrom this Wyrom that. I mean I don't love everything Wyrom has done but Flimbo is full Single White Female about him at this point.

[Stunseed]

< In keeping with my disbelief of his honesty >

You are free to believe what you will. Unlike most, you are at least willing to attempt to use reason and sense in your arguments.

From a business sense standpoint, do you REALLY believe he willingly would poke a stick in a hornet's nest of paying subscribers? By all means, hold your opinions true, do you....But the moves I see Wyrom make are for the business. You might not like some < most > "all" of them, but I'd echo a previous poster..Former PMs of Gemstone went alot further in negative fashions.

[SonoftheNorth]

I can't imagine how unbearable the Discord would be if Flimbo dragged his gigantic axe to grind over there and began popping off about Wyrom this Wyrom that. I mean I don't love everything Wyrom has done but Flimbo is full Single White Female about him at this point.

I've gotten into arguments with wyrom on the board before when he first started posting here but I was overreacting to something he said, IMO the wyrom regime is extreme lenient with permabanning players compared to everyone else in the past. Yeah he overstepped his bounds at first but he corrected it and now we have a resolution and no one was punished.

[Stumplicker]

< In keeping with my disbelief of his honesty >

You are free to believe what you will. Unlike most, you are at least willing to attempt to use reason and sense in your arguments.

From a business sense standpoint, do you REALLY believe he willingly would poke a stick in a hornet's nest of paying subscribers? By all means, hold your opinions true, do you....But the moves I see Wyrom make are for the business. You might not like some < most > "all" of them, but I'd echo a previous poster..Former PMs of Gemstone went alot further in negative fashions.

I understand your viewpoint as well, even if I don't agree with it. What I think this was underneath was an attempt to make a papertrail for someone he wanted to get rid of. That entire initial conversation smacks of exactly how the police treat people they're trying to get confessions out of. There's no good cop bad cop in real life. Just "Hey guy we didn't want to bring you in. Here, have a cup of coffee. We're your friends, just looking out for you, and hey, while you're here, why don't you go ahead and type policy 3 so we have that on file. Why don't you go ahead and explain what you did wrong in your own words. I'm here to listen."

I think believed he could quietly make this papertrail without causing any waves under the guise of "just looking out" and got caught doing so. I don't believe for a second that he was handed down an edict from above, because that's also not in keeping with the company or its history. The company on the whole has never meddled in third party software. Not in 30 years. There's no reason for them to start now, but there was a reason for Wyrom to do what he did - Because he thought he could get away with it without anyone noticing, under his "aw shucks guys I'm one of you" veneer.

[SonoftheNorth]

[QUOTE=Stumplicker;2071707it. What I think this was underneath was an attempt to make a papertrail for someone he wanted to get rid of[/QUOTE]

It's zaoloo with 20 warnings, he doesn't fucking need to do that, if anything he lets zaoloo stay in the game with his loose scripting policy enforcement.

[Derex]

It's zaoloo with 20 warnings, he doesn't fucking need to do that, if anything he lets zaoloo stay in the game with his loose scripting policy enforcement.

$$$$