Canada refuses US missle umbrella

[Back]

Article (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/TECH/02/24/canada.us.missile.defense.ap/index.html)

After two years of debate, they decided to opt out so as not to start another arms race. Crazy or inspired?

I laugh hard when they get PZWNED by some missles. You can never be to sure what will happen in a week from now, a year from now, or anytime. Who knows? If Canada doesn't want the security, fine, we'll just be left with 50 states after some war.

- Arkans

[Parkbandit]

I think the idea of a missle defense system is one that really should have been mothballed when the USSR went tits up. Sure, there's China and a couple other countries.. but I simply don't believe the threat is so immediate that we need to invest so much into the system.. especially when our technology really isn't up for the task.

And screw Canada.. isn't that country more like Northern Montana anyway? :P

Remember, historically people thought "There never would be a great war" or "That country will never be a threat" just to be proved so wrong that we laugh at them when looking back at it. Why take the chance with so many lives?

- Arkans

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Arkans
Remember, historically people thought "There never would be a great war" or "That country will never be a threat" just to be proved so wrong that we laugh at them when looking back at it. Why take the chance with so many lives?

- Arkans

Good point.. much like 9-11 was an eye opener. I just don't see China or Russia as a big threat as to launch missiles against us right now. Certainly if we see indications that those relations are deteriorating.. then hell yea, missiles up.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Backlash
Article (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/TECH/02/24/canada.us.missile.defense.ap/index.html)

After two years of debate, they decided to opt out so as not to start another arms race. Crazy or inspired?

Inspired.

They get to be pacifists.

We won't take their lead, and will still fork over the dough to create the missle defense system.

Let's go on the crazy assumption that someone, someday will in fact fire a missle at Canada. The United States has this wonderful missle defense system.

Do you think we'll really say, "BWAHAHAHAH! You made your beds, lie in it suckers!"? Of course not, we'll defend them.

It is in our best interest to defend them. Think about just how close some of our cities are to some of theirs. I mean, it isn't like someone shooting a missle at Canada is going to aim for the 3 eskimos in the artic circle.

Jorddyn, not saying good or bad either way, just saying

[Wezas]

More fodder for Ann Coulter's Canada hating.

[Warriorbird]

Ballsy by Canada. The day of the old "war" is long over and they don't piss anybody off. It was always useful to claim you were Canadian in sticky situations in Europe. They're boring (other than the French canadians, and they're entertaining).

[xtc]

The Prime Minister has flip/flopped on this issue. He has stated until quite recently that he will definitely participate in the missile defence program.

I am not aware of the costs and the ins and the outs of this program. However I don't trust China and wouldn't put an attack past the hardliners there. Personally I leaned towards being in favour of joining the program.

Polls here show that 54% of Canadians were against the program. The Prime Minister has a minority government, so I think that he has opted out for political reasons. Of course the man can never make up his mind. The Economist in England has dubbed him Mr. Dithers for his ambiguity and indecisiveness on issues.

PB.....you are a southern repub, white sock sandal wearing, mini-van driving member of a state that is stupid to figure out a ballot. People in glass houses........:)

[xtc]

Originally posted by Wezas
More fodder for Ann Coulter's Canada hating.

If Coulter is smart she will keep her trap shut. Her knowledge of US/Canada relations is non-existent. In one interview she was quite insistent that Canada had been in the Vietnam war.

The problem is, is the world is really falling into a state ease. What would happen is say China suddenly had a huge surge in nationalism because some hard liners gained power, then decided to take what is "rightfully theirs" and attack Tawaiin? Would America stand by? Probably not. It could be something like this that could end up with missles flying all over the place.

Remember, I believe it was Mao that said something to the extent of, "Even after a great nuclear war there would always be some Chinese alive in the mountains". A simple statement, but it could be a rather dangerous one.

- Arkans

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by xtc
PB.....you are a southern repub, white sock sandal wearing, mini-van driving member of a state that is stupid to figure out a ballot. People in glass houses........:)

I consider myself a northern Republican who currently lives in Florida.

I don't wear socks, white or otherwise, with my mandles.

Fuck.. got me... although it's my wife's vehicle.

It was eastern Florida that was too stupid to figure out a ballot. I had no trouble at all.

All I can say is: At least I'm not Canadian.

:P

[GSTamral]

The missile defense system is just the next step. It is as significant an acheivement as building the first nukes themselves. The rest of the world is afraid of how a nation might be if they had the ability to nuke others, but they themselves had an immunity to retaliation.

Canadians oppose it because the rest of the world opposes it. It almost like the hate yankees mentality. Everyone hates the team thats always ahead. In this case its a little more significant of course. The team that is ahead may well be able to bomb others with impunity.

Heh, try being conservative up in Massachusetts. When I meet new people I sometimes get the question, "You're like.. uhh, not Republican are you??" Damn, how does someone respond to THAT?

- Arkans

Right, but wasn't it proven that the missle defense system wasn't even close to being 100% reliable?

- Arkans

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Arkans
Right, but wasn't it proven that the missle defense system wasn't even close to being 100% reliable?

- Arkans

I think the system has passed one test and failed many. Like all new technology, it takes time to get it right.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Arkans
Heh, try being conservative up in Massachusetts. When I meet new people I sometimes get the question, "You're like.. uhh, not Republican are you??" Damn, how does someone respond to THAT?


"Yes" or, even better "Quite proudly so."

Jorddyn, used the same response as a liberal in Missouri

P.S. Yes, I know that Missouri is not as conservative as Massachusetts is liberal.

Well, it's good that it is making progress. I don't see how anyone could be against a defensive system like this. Just a no brainer.

- Arkans

I just kind of let it slide under the rug (the question), but if anyone says they voted for Bush or admits to being conservative first, I'm all over that bandwagon.

- Arkans

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Arkans
When I meet new people I sometimes get the question, "You're like.. uhh, not Republican are you??" - Arkans

Wonder what gave it away
http://www.state.ia.us/government/crc/kkkhood.jpg

[GSTamral]

The missile defense test has passed a couple tests but failed in most of them. But keep in mind, it can fail a test and still disarm the missile.

This missile defense system is also only good against ICBMs and MRBMs. It is still useless against an submerged launch.

It isn't 100% yet, and it isn't foolproof. But its a hell of a start.

Hey! I'm not part of some red neck organization like the Ku Klux Klan! They make Hitler cry!

- Arkans

[Warriorbird]

I think people who feel idealogically isolated are more fervent.

[Syberus]

I think one of the main arguments a lot of people have is that they terrorism as one of the main threats against our security as a nation, and terrorists aren't going to be launching missles at us, they're going to have bombs in backpacks etc. So they'd rather see the 7.8 billion dollars or whatever it was in the 2006 budget allocated more towards stuff they think will actually be useful. Personally I don't have a real big opinion on the subject either way, I figure a people with a lot more knowledge of the world and it's dangers than I have are making the decisions, and while it may seem expensive now, if it saves one of our cities from becoming a pile of rubble sometime in the future we'll be quite happy we have it.

[xtc]

Originally posted by GSTamral
The missile defense system is just the next step. It is as significant an acheivement as building the first nukes themselves. The rest of the world is afraid of how a nation might be if they had the ability to nuke others, but they themselves had an immunity to retaliation.

Canadians oppose it because the rest of the world opposes it. It almost like the hate yankees mentality. Everyone hates the team thats always ahead. In this case its a little more significant of course. The team that is ahead may well be able to bomb others with impunity.

I agree that the world opposes the missile defence system because they fear what will happen if the US gets a leg up in the arms race.

I think 54% of Canadians oppose it because they don't think it is worth the enormous cost involved especially considering how poorly it has faired in tests.

The PM has scrapped the idea because he can't afford to make another unpopular decision. He has a minority government and his hold on power currently is precarious.

PB I could have sworn you admitted to wearing socks with your sandals. At least in Canada we can figure out how to work a simple ballot.

[theotherjohn]

I was under the impression the missle defense system was to protect against aliens

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Arkans
Heh, try being conservative up in Massachusetts. When I meet new people I sometimes get the question, "You're like.. uhh, not Republican are you??" Damn, how does someone respond to THAT?SIEG HEIL!!

We'll see how Canada feels when we decide those Chinese SOB's are going down and everyone launches.

[Back]

Originally posted by theotherjohn
I was under the impression the missle defense system was to protect against aliens

::cue Imperial Death March from Star Wars Soundtrack here::

[kheldarin]

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by theotherjohn
I was under the impression the missle defense system was to protect against aliens

::cue Imperial Death March from Star Wars Soundtrack here::

Holy shit that song immediately started playing in my head!

[Warriorbird]

That's no moon, that's a large Reagan budget allocation!

And now time to download it on my computer while I masturbate to mental pictures of Hitler marching with a legion of stormtroopers!

- Arkans

[Neildo]

The missle defense system is pretty cool to watch happen. Every now and then I get to see some test missles fired and intercepted from Vandenburg and the islands across the way. Right in the middle of the show. :D

- N

[Vad]

Originally posted by GSTamaral
The team that is ahead may well be able to bomb others with impunity.

Given our military budget in comparison with any other nation in the world (justified) that's bound to happen sooner or later.


Originally posted by Syberus
I think one of the main arguments a lot of people have is that they terrorism as one of the main threats against our security as a nation, and terrorists aren't going to be launching missles at us, they're going to have bombs in backpacks etc. So they'd rather see the 7.8 billion dollars or whatever it was in the 2006 budget allocated more towards stuff they think will actually be useful. Personally I don't have a real big opinion on the subject either way, I figure a people with a lot more knowledge of the world and it's dangers than I have are making the decisions, and while it may seem expensive now, if it saves one of our cities from becoming a pile of rubble sometime in the future we'll be quite happy we have it.

Agreed on terrorism being our biggest threat, but there's only so much money you can throw at a problem before people just start pocketing it. We're already devoting a lot of resources to the homeland security circus, so i'm happy to see the rest of it going towards protection from more conventional forms of warfare. We always seem to get pwned by whoever we're paying the least attention to. Pearl harbor, 9/11, i'd rather not add the all-too-quiet-lately China to that list.


Originally posted by xtc
I agree that the world opposes the missile defence system because they fear what will happen if the US gets a leg up in the arms race.

I'd go ahead say that we already have a leg up in the arms race, but that would be so ridiculously understated that i'd have to stab myself in the eye with my keys.


Originally posted by Neildo
The missle defense system is pretty cool to watch happen. Every now and then I get to see some test missles fired and intercepted from Vandenburg and the islands across the way. Right in the middle of the show.

I loved that when I was stationed at Vandenberg.. the ICBM test launches were incredibly cool to watch, moreso when they were launched at night (which is pretty common). When I could be bothered to check, i'd find out in advance when the next launch was happening and kick it outside in a lawnchair with a Killian's to watch the fireworks.

The other shred of my job maintains ICBMs. Silos are kind of spooky, but the timed revolving steel door is sweet. Shitty place to work though, I know i'd show up drunk one day and fall in. Glad I ended up in the other shred.

-V

[xtc]

Originally posted by Vad

Originally posted by GSTamaral
The team that is ahead may well be able to bomb others with impunity.



Originally posted by xtc
I agree that the world opposes the missile defence system because they fear what will happen if the US gets a leg up in the arms race.

I'd go ahead say that we already have a leg up in the arms race, but that would be so ridiculously understated that i'd have to stab myself in the eye with my keys.



Vad, Tamral phrased it better. The ability to bomb others with impunity. If America is the only nation with a comprehensive missile defence system to shoot down incoming nuclear missiles, it means we could launch a first strike without fear of the consequences. Of course this would only work on nations with limited nuclear missiles like North Korea.

[Slingblade]

Originally posted by GSTamral
It almost like the hate yankees mentality. Everyone hates the team thats always ahead.

Ahem. ALWAYS?

Yay Sox!

Missiles and stuff.

[Fengus]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Arkans
Right, but wasn't it proven that the missle defense system wasn't even close to being 100% reliable?

- Arkans

I think the system has passed one test and failed many. Like all new technology, it takes time to get it right.


Oh is that all, time? There are some problems in the world that are unsolvable.

This is one of them, its like shoting a bullet in midflight with another bullet. I doubt highly a missile to missile based defense system will ever be reliable much less somewhat successful. Intercepting the missle is the easiest part, assuming a linear flight path, and even there this system has failed time and time again. Also note, this will be trivial, technologically speaking, to change. It would take a simple chip to be able to move around within a flightpath window, randomly or whatever and completely neutralize any missile interceptions.

This is just a "safety" sale, you buy into it because it would make you invincible, much like SDI. Pure and simple its a pipedream, but as you have proven, the average dumb american buys into it and supports it. Same as with SDI.


Its just a waste of money, much like SDI was, however SDI was far more sensible in a theoretical standpoint.