crit weighting vs flares

[Darkwood]

Greetings all. was wondering if some of you veterans and number crunchers could help me out. Past 50th lvl whats more effective for an ambusher (rogue) crit weighting or flares. ill probaly go TWC and when i played last year i used 2 heavily crit weighted ohe and found them to be very effective but ive heard that at higher lvls critters have crit imunities(sp?).
so i implore those of you with ample knowledge to help me decide which weapons i should look for and why.

thanks to all that reply ;)

[Latrinsorm]

Flares always beat crit weighting, unless you have crappy flares vs. awesome weighting.

[Alarke]

I tend to go the opposite... unless you're getting some kind of double strike flares, as an ambusher, some nice crit weighting will come in handy.

[Darkwood]

why specificaly do you say that? what is it about flaring that makes it better than then doing more crit damage. thanks

[Drew]

The way ambushing works now with crit randomization crit weighting is less useful then it used to be. That being said, very heavily weighted items are still generally better than flaring weapons, but lightly weighted items are (generally) worse. When it comes down to it, at higher levels your ambushing skill is generally high enough to assure a good chance of a crit kill regardless of weapon weighting (if you hit your target). Crit weighting still is nice against heavily armoured creatures (which there are less of in the upper levels) and is very useful when you are younger or if you are an open swinger.



The real question is if you miss your aiming target would you prefer to have a 1/7 chance of having your sword flare and hopefully having that flare stun or would you prefer the crit weighting slightly enhancing your chance of stunning a critter (bearing in mind that when you miss your target your ambush critical damage is cut in half).

Lastly, flares are similar to damage weighting in that every one out of 7 swings you can do between 10-40 damage, averaging that out over 7 swings it's still decent damage weighting not even considering the other benefits of flares.

As an aside I've been toying with the idea of picking up a shadowdeath dagger and having a TWC bard use a sonic dagger and a shadowdeath in his off-hand with Tonis. That would be a combination of flares that would wear down anything's health real quick.

[Darkwood]

so would it be best to get two heavily(+) weighted weps, one weighted one flarer, or two flarers?

[Drew]

Personally I would go with a heavily weighted "heavy" weapon like a falchion or handaxe and a flaring quicker weapon like a short or long sword, depending on what weapons I could do a 6 second ambush with.

[Darkwood]

what are some good flare weps to look out for?

[Drew]

Unless you are going to pony up big money for vacuum flares, double-strike flares, stone flares, shadowdeath or greater elemental flares (some other rare ones as well) you might as well get something you like the look of. And have some different types for different areas (fire for Pinefar, ice for Teras, etc.).

[Apotheosis]

Lightning, acid and vibe flares seem to be pretty strong, and can handle a wide variety of critters...

I would still say, if you are ambushing, go with crit weighting, had a lot of success with a krolvin backslasher (5x, somewhat crit weighted shortsword) and a main gauche (+15 DS when wielded offhand).

Biggest problems in TWC is you will get hit bad, so get some redux, and get in torso chain ASAP.

My rogue uses the following, 6x acid flaring falchion, 6x lightning flaring shortsword and a 4x, acid flaring shortsword.. he's also an open fighter, so learning Feint and getting more sweep ranks has been helpful.

I can drop 100 - 300 damage per focused mstrike, depending on the critter armor.. but it takes alot of points to do that...

i say flaring is good because it increases your chance for death crits, or sever crits.. and it causes critters to take more overall wounds which is handy..

finally, look at it this way, one attack has the potential for 4 seperate damage/crit hits, focused mstike has 8. two shortswords = 5 sec focused mstrike

[Edited on 2-22-2005 by Yswithe]

[Darkwood]

Redux huh? well i have a friend who has some fgb he'l lend me. that should be good enough im guessing. is mstrike heavy on the stamina cost? i mean how often can you use it when you hunt before you have to let yourself recover? also, Yswithe< would using a mstrike with two heavy(+) crit weighted weps also give me a good chance to kill and or at least stun said critter? the impression im getting so far is that both weapon mods have good usage but the few of you that replied seem to lean a little towards weighting. so as a general response all things being equal who has used both types when huntung critters over sixty and what have you found to most effective? thanks again to all for the input youve given.

[Apotheosis]

over 60, I have no clue.. but from 0 - 40 I have seen a wide variety of armor types, and critter tactics.. I have also used crit weighted weapons from somewhat to very heavy..
(also note that I go with flares for aesthetic value)

with TWC you're trying, IMO to accomplish two things:

Hit hard within a short amount of time
Dodge getting hit, because 1x PT won't cut it (maybe if you're 60)

But, I am getting high enough endrolls at this point in hunting where crit weighitng is irrelevant because I do insta-death crits very frequently.

Mstrike doesn't require stamina.. it requires MOC training
5 ranks, two unfocused strikes (two critters), 15 ranks 3 unfocused strikes (three critters) 30 ranks, 1 focused mstrike(two swings on a critter,which is 4 swings with TWC), There is a cooldown which is based on a number of factors like STR, CON, encumbrance, Physical Training, among other things which I can't remember.. when you hunt, you can use it alot.

I back up what drew says, too.. because based on the thing you're going up against, the element you use makes a difference.

Still, if you swing with two longswords/handaxes or falchions your RT is going to get up there when mstriking or ambushing, so keep a gauche or shortsword handy for the offhand to keep that RT down

[StrayRogue]

Basic hauberk is superior to FGB. Get in chain if you're going to be a TWCer.

[Darkwood]

well folks thanks for the much needed info. SO lets see if i can summarize. provided i can get very good flarers they are just as effective as crit weighting maybe more so if i use an opposed element. i guessing i should go for the higher end flares(vibes, doubles, shadows etc) to diminish the possibility of critter resistance. get a faster, smaller wep for my off hand to lower round time. train for better than brigadine armor to help with redux. how many trains am i looking at to be able to wear chain?
also, is it better to trian for better armor or to increase my training in dodge?

[hectomaner]

i thought main gauches were +10 DS not 15, and then 20 ranks of parry

[Latrinsorm]

40, 60, 60, 80 ranks for chain AsGs. MBP is also 80 ranks, so if you go that high, get MBP.

I wouldn't trade my lightning flarer for anything less than exceptional weighting.

[Darkwood]

please keep the input comming. thanks:grin:

[Apotheosis]

Ok, forgot the added DS from main gauches, but you get the point.

brig sucks, too

this is what my rogue, at lvl 32 looks like.. still need to catch up, but my main purpose was to fit in chain and get 3x dodge..

Two Weapon Combat..................| 160 60
Armor Use..........................| 130 35
Combat Maneuvers...................| 122 31
Edged Weapons......................| 160 60
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 120 30
Physical Fitness...................| 162 62
Dodging............................| 196 96
Arcane Symbols.....................| 50 10
Harness Power......................| 10 2
Disarming Traps....................| 162 62
Picking Locks......................| 162 62
Perception.........................| 162 62
Climbing...........................| 70 15
Swimming...........................| 70 15
Trading............................| 74 16

I like to pick, very handy. The hit in AS is not that big of a deal, because I can kill things around my lvl anyway fairly easy.

Few things

hunting over your head will be tough.. even though I have even training in TWC and OHE which is recomended for pure TWC combat, I still have problems hitting things offhand. It's somethign I can live with, but it's something to consider.

I get hit alot, this is why torso chain is nice to have. 3x dodge REALLY helps avoid bolts. Only casting I have problems with is CS based.

I have one Wspec (shortswords), Surge of strength, and feint (which is great). All are used to get more AS, cause you really wanna be able to hit hard fast.

(focused mstrike, falchion/shortsword, 6x/4x,)

You concentrate intently, focusing all your energies.
You explode into a fury of strikes and ripostes, moving with a singular purpose and will!
You swing a razern-edged void black warblade at a Grutik savage!
AS: +275 vs DS: +183 with AvD: +37 + d100 roll: +6 = +135
... and hit for 21 points of damage!
Downward slash across the Grutik savage's left thigh!
Gouges bone!
The Grutik savage is stunned!

** Your void black warblade releases a spray of acid! **
... 10 points of damage!
Acid reaches the chest causing a nasty rash!
You swing a veniom-hilted black rolaren long-knife at a Grutik savage!
AS: +265 vs DS: +157 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +42 = +186
... and hit for 41 points of damage!
Well placed strike shatters a rib!

** Your black rolaren long-knife releases a spray of acid! **
... 20 points of damage!
Hit on the arm chars the skin and eats into the underlying muscles!
You swing a razern-edged void black warblade at a Grutik savage!
AS: +275 vs DS: +153 with AvD: +37 + d100 roll: +67 = +226
... and hit for 61 points of damage!
Quick, hard slash to the Grutik savage's right arm!
*CRACK*
You swing a veniom-hilted black rolaren long-knife at a Grutik savage!
AS: +265 vs DS: +149 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +30 = +182
... and hit for 30 points of damage!
Strike pierces forearm!
The savage's wooden club falls to the ground.

Your series of strikes and ripostes leaves you winded and out of position.
Roundtime: 6 sec.

(this is a mediocre one at best, and yes, I am way over their head, but it's an example)

[Edited on 2-23-2005 by Yswithe]

[Darkwood]

very nice, although i think i would probably focus more on combat manuvers and ambushing. 3x dodge makes sense since ill not be using a shield. i think what im going to do is experiment with flarers and crit weighting to see which works best for me and at my lvl. im also juggling the idea of dropping picking altogether so i can push up my PT training and dump more points into CM. but i must admit being able to pop my own boxes is very nice. i believe theres a fixskill comming in april so ill play around with my char till then. now as for traning for hauberk or mbp, arent they making armor penalties to hiding soon? would kinda suck to dump alot of points into armor training just to have to take it back. open fighting is very viable but i like ambushing.

[Darkwood]

no one has anymore input on their experiences with regards to heavy hitters vs flarers? thanks to all who have replied

[Fengus]

There are a lot of unknowns in talking about crit weighting, both player skill and weapons.

But I've never particularily cared for flares, now, there are exceptions I stock up on feras daggers. :>

The answer to this question for an ambushing rogue can be easily solved if you have an answer to another question: is weapon crit weighting added after the randomization or before? If its after then weighting is the way to go, if not then it is basically useless to a highly trained ambusher. (That is, crit rank is maxed at 9, so all the weighting in the world won't push it beyond that value, then at worst case with the randimization that is cut in half and you end up with a rank 4 crit.)

[Darkwood]

Thanks Fengus for your insight. That being said any of you math wizzies or game veterans know exactly hot crits are factored? those with knowledge feel free to u2u me. thanks for all the help everyone.

[Warriorbird]

If it's very heavy crit or above, I'd go for weighting. In most other cases, flares.

[Sylph]

I use two-handed polearms; (Lances, Awl-pikes, Halberds, and Jeddart-axes... etc) and Ive quickly embraced flares... since I just picked up an eonake scythe that flares lighting to 70.


As a 2weapon Rogue? Its really personal preference. Crit sliding has tuned crit weighting down a notch.


Seeing a flare is fun... and having the critter die is good. Just choose but if you are ambushing... Heh... Chances are you aren't REALLY going to need the crits.(im partial to a nice damage weighted weapon in my offhand for mstriking when looking at a 2weaponer)

[Darkwood]

can anyone post exactly how crit weighting if factored in? im curious to see exactly how it works and if it stacks with ambushing.

[Latrinsorm]

Crit weighting adds "phantom damage" to raw damage for purposes of crit calculation. Ambush, among other things, also adds phantom damage. There is a point where crit rank maxes out (at rank 9). This is a different amount of raw+phantom damage for each armor group. It requires more on plate and less on skin, which is why reivers are much less squishy than Arachne priests.

In the switch to GS IV, crit randomization was implemented. This makes it so that the crit you get is somewhere between the crit rank you achieve and half of that. So if you achieved rank 9 you could get 9, 8, 7, 6, or 5. I've never seen proof either way if it rounds up or not, but for some reason I believe it does. It's probably a good reason.

[Darkwood]

ok so how does the calculation take place and where does a weapons weighting get factored in?

[Latrinsorm]

Endroll - 100 = success margin
Success margin * damage factor = raw damage
raw damage + phantom damage = crit indication damage
crit indication damage / crit divisor = maximum crit rank
maximum crit rank / 2 = minimum crit rank

The actual crit rank is somewhere in the range [minimum cr, maximum cr]. Crit weighting adds phantom damage, crit padding subtracts.

[Drew]

Originally posted by Fengus
The answer to this question for an ambushing rogue can be easily solved if you have an answer to another question: is weapon crit weighting added after the randomization or before?


Just to address this directly, it's added before.

That's why you could theoretically do 1500 damage to some critters head with a claidhmore and as long as they had at least 1501 HP then there is a chance they wouldn't die. (rank 5 slash crits to the head don't kill, so it can get randomized down that far).

[Apotheosis]

in either case, it still seems to me that raw blood damage, plus the chance of a death crit from a flaring weapon can be better..

Truth is, you're more like to do instant kills, or a critical stun, ambushing with a two-handed weapon, with flaring weapons, if you fight in the open, with dual ohe's, you're going to kill instantly far less, but you'll get more blood off per attack, then if you just swung at a critter with a two-handed weapon, in general.

[Apotheosis]

In addition, here's from real hunting experience...

I found that taking out large swarms of critters seems a bit easier with Falchion/Shortsword combo, because the RT isn't that high. With lots of redux, wearing chain or plate, you'll be alright. Flares are nice additions because like I said, more blood, and chances of more crits to different areas of a body, so you'll maim/disable a critter pretty easily. And its fast.

If you go with two crit weighted weapons, then you'll want to stick with an ambushing style of fighting, as open combat + crit weighted OHE's are definitely slower, and not as effective, I've tested both (two faenor waraxes, and falchion/shortsword flarers, both 6x).

All I can say about TWC is the only way you can really find out what works for you is do it, see what you prefer, end of story, really. Just because you can figure out the math doesn't mean that you have found the most efficient/effective way to fight.

Take into account 4 chances to stun (with flares), 4 crit chances, vs. 2 crit chances, and you'll get the point.

[Drew]

Originally posted by Yswithe
Take into account 4 chances to stun (with flares), 4 crit chances, vs. 2 crit chances, and you'll get the point.


Your chances of having both weapons flare on the same swing is only (roughly) 1 of 168, nothing to count on.