Pure PF - 1x vs 24

[Astray]

So according to Drigler, 24 PF as a pure is fine until cap.

Everyone else knows that 1x PF4lyfe is the way to go.

What do you recommend? Why? Any solid evidence? Drigler needs that because everyone telling him otherwise makes him right.

[Taernath]

Who the fuck is Drigler?

1x, no question. It helps with some maneuvers, it even says so on the website.

[Astray]

Who the fuck is Drigler?

1x, no question. It helps with some maneuvers, it even says so on the website.

He kept making the claim that 24 PF is fine in Lnet Help channel and after being told he was wrong, he changed his stance and started demanding evidence.

He's fucking retarded.

[Taernath]

He kept making the claim that 24 PF is fine in Lnet Help channel and after being told he was wrong, he changed his stance and started demanding evidence.

He's fucking retarded.

Maybe he's one of those GSIII holdovers that still train in OHE+shield. Is he even capped? Not that being capped prevents you from being retarded, mind you.

[Astray]

I don't know dude but he just ignored multiple people telling him 1x is far superior and so on and so forth. What I don't understand is why ask for help, give disinformation and then get huffy about it?

What an anus.

[drauz]

If you avoid any creature with a maneuver then 24 is fine, if you face anything with maneuvers you are gonna get wrecked by them. This is why pures used to get wrecked by maneuvers before we found out PF was the major contributor to evasion of them. Most stopped training PF once they capped their health out. That info is like 20+ years out of date.

[lexbubba]

He also said 24 PF is the only way to go, and then later said he only 1x PF on all his characters

[Astray]

If you avoid any creature with a maneuver then 24 is fine, if you face anything with maneuvers you are gonna get wrecked by them. This is why pures used to get wrecked by maneuvers before we found out PF was the major contributor to evasion of them. Most stopped training PF once they capped their health out. That info is like 20+ years out of date.

What everyone and their mom told him.

[Maerit]

The conversation was not started by Drigler, to be fair. He contributed to answering a question that someone asked about how their HP wasn't going up after training more PT. It was more of a once you hit 24 ranks, you don't get any more HP, and then most of the rest of us explained how it also helps with defense. The argument he continued to make was just that it's not clear how much 1x helps vs 24 ranks.

[kutter]

Its been a while since I looked at it, since the maneuver defense is the main reason to do it, but it is not as if there are not other benefits, ie. Don't you get more HP back per pulse the more you train? Is there even a cap on that, does anyone know?

[Winter]

I only have 23 on my capped wizards I usually just 512/410 everything. This has worked fine for me in Nelemar, cold side confluence and OTF, I don't have any experience with Sanctum of Scales or the rift. My Wizards are dark elves/elves and only wear robes, maybe the difference in racial manoeuvre bonuses are as significant as the difference in racial encumbrance and carry weights? Has anyone worked out how many ranks of PF each level of racial manoeuvre bonus is worth?

[zoraster]

Maybe he's one of those GSIII holdovers that still train in OHE+shield. Is he even capped? Not that being capped prevents you from being retarded, mind you.

there are still people that do this as pures?

[Methais]

I only have 23 on my capped wizards I usually just 512/410 everything. This has worked fine for me in Nelemar, cold side confluence and OTF, I don't have any experience with Sanctum of Scales or the rift. My Wizards are dark elves/elves and only wear robes, maybe the difference in racial manoeuvre bonuses are as significant as the difference in racial encumbrance and carry weights? Has anyone worked out how many ranks of PF each level of racial manoeuvre bonus is worth?

Crawlers would tear you apart in the Rift, and often spawn by blasting out of the ground at you, making it impossible to incapacitate them in those cases.

Overall though, the Rift isn't very maneuver heavy and crawlers are probably as bad as it gets in there. That might be the only maneuver you have to deal with in there unless I'm forgetting something.

1x PF is definitely better, but if you either avoid maneuver using critters entirely or can reliably beat them to the punch, 24 ranks is doable. And it's like 8/0 so it's not like any real sacrifices are going to be made in most cases.

[Donquix]

I only have 23 on my capped wizards I usually just 512/410 everything. This has worked fine for me in Nelemar, cold side confluence and OTF, I don't have any experience with Sanctum of Scales or the rift. My Wizards are dark elves/elves and only wear robes, maybe the difference in racial manoeuvre bonuses are as significant as the difference in racial encumbrance and carry weights? Has anyone worked out how many ranks of PF each level of racial manoeuvre bonus is worth?

Gemstone is easy. You can take purposefully bad builds to cap and hunt totally fine. You can hunt with vanilla 0x gear or you can buy 10x crit weighted / padded gear.

You can progress and be totally fine with 24 or less PF. But you'd be better with more. Offense is easy to get. It's fun to blow shit up extra hard but dead is dead, surviability is a bit harder.

Plugging your class' one true weakness for a relatively moderate investment (worst case this is for sorc/wiz at 8 per PT rank. That's ~8 spells at the 3x training cost for spells basically to go from 24 pf to full 1x) is more than worth the investment. It's not like picking up CM or Dodge that can take as much exp as capping in the first place.

[Tgo01]

You can hunt with vanilla 0x gear or you can buy 10x crit weighted / padded gear.

I thought most critters past a certain level were immune to non-enchanted gear? Was this the way things used to be or am I just going crazy?

[Methais]

I thought most critters past a certain level were immune to non-enchanted gear? Was this the way things used to be or am I just going crazy?

Some are, but that's critter based, not level based.

Someone should raise a character from 0-100 without training PF at all. Start a new thread called Gemstone HARDERCORE.

[Donquix]

I thought most critters past a certain level were immune to non-enchanted gear? Was this the way things used to be or am I just going crazy?

this was about pures :P

but ok fine, 0x armor / shield and a mithril BROADSWORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

[Astray]

That 4th option is pretty rough. I gotta apologize for that, I was incredibly frustrated by that dude just ignoring valid information in favor of his own.

[Taernath]

Someone should raise a character from 0-100 without training PF at all. Start a new thread called Gemstone HARDERCORE.

A game mode where we are all forced to play that first, terribly trained character we made.

[Tgo01]

A game mode where we are all forced to play that first, terribly trained character we made.

Back before you could redo your skills so if you accidentally didn't train in your weapon type for a level your character was forever gimped?

[Taernath]

Back before you could redo your skills so if you accidentally didn't train in your weapon type for a level your character was forever gimped?

That's the one. We could call it Gemstone: FUCK YOU

[Gelston]

That's the one. We could call it Gemstone: FUCK YOU

Not really gimped. eventually, with enough levels, it is only a 2AS difference. It sucks at low levels though.

[Tgo01]

Not really gimped. eventually, with enough levels, it is only a 2AS difference. It sucks at low levels though.

2 AS is gimped! GIMPED I SAY!

[Gelston]

2 AS is gimped! GIMPED I SAY!

I swtiched from THW to OHE/Shield at level 8 once because a mein greatsword was fucking expensive and I couldn't afford it and a mein sword was like 60k less, little did I know a mein sword was actually a rapier. I sat around in Hobs until I couldn't gain XP anymore.

[Methais]

A game mode where we are all forced to play that first, terribly trained character we made.

I'll kick everything's ass with my level 25 ranger that trained in pick/disarm because I thought shit like that was for quests and not loot and as a result only knew 609 and 103.

[Taernath]

I'll kick everything's ass with my level 25 ranger that trained in pick/disarm because I thought shit like that was for quests and not loot and as a result only knew 609 and 103.

My warrior only 1x'ed weapon skills (OHE, OHB, and brawling) because I wanted to be "well rounded", and didn't train in 2h because I thought the alexandrite greatsword I had custom made used edged training like another game I had just finished playing.

[gilchristr]

If less than 1x was desired, I think the optimal number to train to would be 40 ranks. Then find a few good 10+ PF bonus enhancives to fill in any empty slots you have.

You could easily get 90 PF ranks this way, and then you would have all those saved TPs from skipping the training to dump into spells, and you would still have similar defenses as your peers. OR you could dump all the saved TPs into combat maneuvers, which are impossible to find as enhancives, and have better defenses than a number of other pures (plus some CM points for say combat focus for more TD).

I dont have an axe in this fight though, for the record i voted for tacos.

[khorpulent]

The best course of action is to be an empath and 3x PF.

[Dantx]

It'd be interesting to go on test server and test stuff like this. We all know they say it is a primary factor in maneuver defense, but having actual hard proof it does help and by how much is definitely something I'd be interested in knowing.

Same thing for 704 w/ demonology ranks.

They say it does help, but going from 40 ranks to 102 ranks, I've yet to see a noticeable difference. Also with the amount of bugs in formulas, some of this stuff should definitely be verified and not just taken as gospel with no testing.

[Gelston]

It'd be interesting to go on test server and test stuff like this. We all know they say it is a primary factor in maneuver defense, but having actual hard proof it does help and by how much is definitely something I'd be interested in knowing.

Same thing for 704 w/ demonology ranks.

They say it does help, but going from 40 ranks to 102 ranks, I've yet to see a noticeable difference. Also with the amount of bugs in formulas, some of this stuff should definitely be verified and not just taken as gospel with no testing.

It is directly posted as the primary for it, so the amount it helps is more than anything else. :D

[Dantx]

Just like how SMC directly helped with 130 recovery, until there was a bug found and it really did nothing until it was fixed....

[Gelston]

Just like how SMC directly helped with 130 recovery, until there was a bug found and it really did nothing until it was fixed....

Nah, this is pretty well proven.