locklore and disarm formula

[gilchristr]

Alright most posts are somewhat fuzzy on the formula for 403/404 ... I have been curious because I have a character that has 83 MnE ranks and is getting a ton of help from these spells.

From reading the GM posts, and reviewing my results, I am almost certain the formula for how much help you get form self cast 404 is:

Disarm skill bonus/4 + MnE ranks/2 + dex bonus/4

Tracks basically perfectly to my character's max trap. Specifically, this calculates to about -440, and my character's best trap ever is -436.


The locklore formula would be similar.


SO my character with 280 disarm bonus, 83 MnE ranks, and +40 dex bonus should be able to get the following trap:

w/o disarmlore: 280 +40 = -320
w/ disarmlore: 320 + (70+41+10) = -441



Anyone have any evidence to the contrary and/or does this track your character?

[Riltus]

Alright most posts are somewhat fuzzy on the formula for 403/404 ... I have been curious because I have a character that has 83 MnE ranks and is getting a ton of help from these spells.

From reading the GM posts, and reviewing my results, I am almost certain the formula for how much help you get form self cast 404 is:

Disarm skill bonus/4 + MnE ranks/2 + dex bonus/4

Tracks basically perfectly to my character's max trap. Specifically, this calculates to about -440, and my character's best trap ever is -436.


The locklore formula would be similar.


SO my character with 280 disarm bonus, 83 MnE ranks, and +40 dex bonus should be able to get the following trap:

w/o disarmlore: 280 +40 = -320
w/ disarmlore: 320 + (70+41+10) = -441



Anyone have any evidence to the contrary and/or does this track your character?

Official spell description states that level is factor for both 403 and 404.

This result was from an LFM picking contest. I had tested this character's max lock with and without lore. You can use the 'points scored' result to back out max lock. You need to have 403 active during the contest for max lock with lore.

Level: 43
Skill: 215
DEX: 35
MnE: 4

Max lock with vaalin (2.5 modifier) without lore or modding down: -625
Max lock with vaalin and lore: -820


Actual Bonus: (820 - 625)/2.5 vaalin mod = 78 bonus from self-cast 403

Using your hypothetical formula: Skill bonus/4 + MnE ranks/2 + dex bonus/4


Calculated Bonus: (215/4) + (4/2) + (35/4) = 62

Actual: 78 vs Calculated: 62

Edited to add

This formula seems to produce more accurate results but could use more testing (I'm not certain on the MnE divisor):


Lore Bonus = Level/2 + DEX bonus + Skill/10 + MnE/10


Procedure for calculating max lock using picking contest result

You remove a vaalin lockpick from on a small wooden table.

You struggle with the box. As you do, you get a sense that the box has a well-crafted lock (-440 thief-lingo difficulty ranking). Then...CLICK! It opens!

[You have scored 536 points!]

1. Multiply the lock size by 1000: (-440 * 1000) = -440,000
2. Divide this total by your score: (-440,000/536) = -820 max lock with lore


Mark

[gilchristr]

Understand the official spell description gives level, but these two GM posts both list only skills/MnE ranks/dex, and one of the GM posts seems extremely thorough (I've quoted it):

https://gswiki.play.net/Picking_Locks/saved_posts#403_and_404_Bonus_Calculations

"Picking:
Helps - Picking skill, Dexterity bonus, Locklore, lockpick, open rolls, "modding down"
Hurts - Wounds, not enough skill for the used lockpick, fumbles

- Consigliere Ildran, Shizlock Holmesplice"




Having said that, I read you loud and clear on the formula I posted not working for the character in question.

So, just curious, the character you had only had 214 skill (even though full 3x would have been 235 skill?) Also, no enhancives worn in the contest?

[BigWorm]

Here are the formulas that I use to calculate things on my rogue:



base_pick = Skills.to_bonus( Skills.pickinglocks ) + Stats.dex[1]
base_pick_lore = base_pick + Stats.level / 2 + Skills.pickinglocks / 10 + Stats.dex[1] / 2 + Stats.int[1] / 2 + Spells.minorelemental
base_disarm = Skills.to_bonus( Skills.disarmingtraps ) + Stats.dex[1]
base_disarm_lore = base_disarm + Stats.level / 2 + Skills.disarmingtraps / 10 + Stats.agi[1] / 2 + Stats.dis[1] / 2 + Spells.minorelemental

[Riltus]

Understand the official spell description gives level, but these two GM posts both list only skills/MnE ranks/dex, and one of the GM posts seems extremely thorough (I've quoted it):

https://gswiki.play.net/Picking_Locks/saved_posts#403_and_404_Bonus_Calculations

The first is not a GM post. That was posted by SDEMASK (message #964) and it is quoting the officials.

403
For manual lockpicking, success factors include the caster's level, the caster's Pick Locks skill, the caster's Minor Elemental spell ranks, and the target's Dexterity bonus. At no time will the spell provide a bonus greater than the target's Pick Locks skill.



"Picking:
Helps - Picking skill, Dexterity bonus, Locklore, lockpick, open rolls, "modding down"
Hurts - Wounds, not enough skill for the used lockpick, fumbles

- Consigliere Ildran, Shizlock Holmesplice"

Level is incorporated in the Locklore bonus only and wouldn't be listed separately as a Helps factor.


Having said that, I read you loud and clear on the formula I posted not working for the character in question.

So, just curious, the character you had only had 214 skill (even though full 3x would have been 235 skill?) Also, no enhancives worn in the contest?

Skill bonus of 215 is correct (character not fully 3x) and no enchancives.


What is the level of the character in your original post?

Mark

[gilchristr]

Mark - to answer your question my character is level 63.

Here is another post I had been working from... I suppose I misread this as being implemented, as I look again, it seems like some change that was being planned but never implemented. My bad. This also explicitly says that level is a factor absent adoption of these proposed changes, and if they were not adopted, then I agree level is a factor.

"I just wanted to update you guys that Warden and I have reached a set of numbers that we both feel is reasonable for the updated locks. This is still subject to change, but it is likely to be the final version, so I wanted to make you aware of the gist of the changes.

First, we plan to remove the level-based component from 403, leaving the Pick Locks skill, Minor Elemental ranks, and Dexterity bonus as the factors, weighted the same as they are now. As a result, 403 will provide a smaller bonus than it did previously, and the bonus will be flatter (grow more slowly) than before.

At the same time, we'll be modifying the basic lockpicking equation to increase the Pick Locks skill contribution by 25%; in effect, you will be treated as if your Pick Locks skill is 25% higher than it really is.

The net effect of the previous two changes is that being an good lockpicker will have more to do with one's training in Pick Locks than whether one knows 403. As well, most pickers will see their max lock increase somewhat, especially those with a lot of skill.

Finally, the lock range for basically every creature in the game will be changing, in some cases by several hundred points. Most creatures will see their lock ranges increase on average. When these changes go live, you should be cautious for a little while until you get used to both your new max and the lock ranges for various creatures. We'll reiterate these details when the actual roll in of the changes approaches.

The details of this are still subject to change, and are not being deployed in the immediate future. Now that lock numbers are dealt with, we have to perform a similar analysis for trap numbers, which may or may not see analogous changes.

- Consigliere Ildran, Shizlock Holmesplice"

[Methais]

Would be nice if Simu would remove the exp penalty from 403/404 already.

[gilchristr]

"This formula seems to produce more accurate results but could use more testing (I'm not certain on the MnE divisor):


Lore Bonus = Level/2 + DEX bonus + Skill/10 + MnE/10"


Mark - I got some data today I thought it would help. I am 68 trains, I have 190 ranks in disarm (50 of this is from enhancives), I have 40 Dex bonus (20 of this is from enhancives) and I have 94 MnE ranks (always have 404 on when picking).

Today I beat my personal record (which was -437) to achieve a new personal record of -448. I am pretty dang sure that is my max trap (maybe -450 is my max trap).

Can this information help research on the MnE component of the estimated 404 formula?


Also, to try and account for modding, I think I first got the message (could have had it with a little more luck) on a "talented attempt" before for any modding contributed to the success.