Curious

[StrayRogue]

How much coverage did you guys get on the murders of the 8 iraqi Policemen? Its been on the news, in the papers since it happened. I know the Gov. there likes to keep things hush hush, so just what has been said about this most recent fuck up?

[Artha]

A bit, actually. Our media's not directly related to our government :)

[Tendarian]

Yeah its all over the news and the front page of the papers.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Artha
A bit, actually. Our media's not directly related to our government :)

Nice mistake, mo mo. You think the Gov. has no control over the media? And does not excersize this control when it needs to? Seriously, the more I listen, the more I laugh...

[Tendarian]

The only control they exercise are ones im sure id approve of like not giving away gov't secrets and the sort. You and your anti US conspiracy theories are humorous.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Tendarian
The only control they exercise are ones im sure id approve of like not giving away gov't secrets and the sort. You and your anti US conspiracy theories are humorous.

Seriously, I'm laughing. A new level of ignorance. Oh my.

[Tendarian]

Im laughing at your know it all hollier than thou idiocy as well.

[Artha]

I'm sure you in England know way more about our news media than we here in America.

[StrayRogue]

Well, as prior posts have proven, I seem to know more about your President, his term of office, and Iraq. But hey, what can you do *laughs*

[Tendarian]

You seem to know every little nit picky BAD thing about him,yes thats true. Good for you,if i cared of your country i bet i could google enough dirt to where you didnt know about every lil piece of trash i dragged up from the gutter.

[Tendarian]

Your just mad the news covered the iraqi police shooting thing so well so you couldnt laugh at the US. Admit it

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Tendarian
You seem to know every little nit picky BAD thing about him,yes thats true. Good for you,if i cared of your country i bet i could google enough dirt to where you didnt know about every lil piece of trash i dragged up from the gutter.

No, you see the thing is, I could not care what dirt you bring up on my country. We do not stick our fucking arrogant noses into situations half as much as you do. Thats why you get so much negative attention.

As for the coverage, I am glad you are getting any at all. Though I will be suprised if its anything but "Brave US soldiers kill more Iraqi scum".

[Tendarian]

Umm you do realize your arrogant noses are there with us in iraq too huh?

[Artha]

It was something like Soldiers kill Iraqi Police, Soldiers shoot 8 policemen, etc, etc.

You've got a really warped, unfounded view of America.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Tendarian
Umm you do realize your arrogant noses are there with us in iraq too huh?

I see you are also blessed with a short memory. Or a selective one. Would you like me to link you to the post explaining why has joined your sinking ship?

Or I will simplify:
Go to war with America, or get sanctioned fucking up the economy, losing jobs, generally pissing people off. Pretty much whats happened to France. Lesser of two evils. Bush wanted someone else on his fucking death crusade, Blair made the wrong choice, and will be paying for it with his job.

[Ilvane]

I don't think he's so far off. I'm not anti-American either. To think that the government doesn't have anything to do with the papers would be a bit naive.

They do, of course. It's not a conspiracy theory either.:lol:

-A

[Tendarian]

Lol this reminds me of a couple years ago when Columbine happened and i was watching the national news. It started with The democrats are trying to pass gun control laws and the republicans are stopping them because they are being paid off by the NRA. I was left thinking wtf? They cant be just against gun control? Same with Blair,how do you know he was against it whole heartedly but went with just cause us evil americans would sanction you? How has the US gov't sanctioned France by the way?

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Ilvane
I don't think he's so far off. I'm not anti-American either. To think that the government doesn't have anything to do with the papers would be a bit naive.

They do, of course. It's not a conspiracy theory either.:lol:

-A

You rock btw Ilvane. Happy B-day.

[Tendarian]

There are no black helicopters watching me. There are no black helicopters watching me. I just keep telling myself that.

[Miss X]

I doubt Blair will lose his job, and the latest u.k. opinion poles suggest that although most of us think the war was handled in the wrong way, Blair was right to go to war. This isnt my personal point of view, but I would bet my life Blair will be re-elected.
In regards to the U.S. Media, I dont think they could have covered up the mistake the soilders made, because people in the U.S. have acess to world media via the internet etc. We can never rely on the media to give us an acurate idea about what happened, if the U.S. media is trying to make the situation look better, who's to say the U.K. media isnt trying to make it look worse? Of course the government have an element of control over the media in the U.S. but they do in the U.K. too. Never take what you see on TV or read in the papers as gospel.
V


[Edited on 14-9-03 by Miss X]

[Ilvane]

No but we have badmouthed them. Bush has made speeches about if you are not with us, you are with the terrorists. Who do you think that was aimed at? France, Germany, etc..

Sure, we are still allies at the moment, but since his administration came along our foreign relations have been vastly strained by the American arrogance of "We don't need anyone else to help us." Of course, now we are asking for the help from the UN. Why not just have done that in the first place?

:grin:

-A

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Tendarian
Lol this reminds me of a couple years ago when Columbine happened and i was watching the national news. It started with The democrats are trying to pass gun control laws and the republicans are stopping them because they are being paid off by the NRA. I was left thinking wtf? They cant be just against gun control? Same with Blair,how do you know he was against it whole heartedly but went with just cause us evil americans would sanction you? How has the US gov't sanctioned France by the way?

What, so the US fucking with French Imports/Exports wasn't on the news? SHOCK.

As for Blair, the polls here was something like 57% for war, 43% against; ie, very close. Last time we went to iraq it was alot less close. So basically if he committed us to war, he took a 50/50 (57/43) chance that if he/you/us fucked up, he was pretty much screwed. And guess what happened...

[Artha]

Pretty much whats happened to France.

France is being boycotted by citizens, not the government.


They do, of course. It's not a conspiracy theory either.

So basically, you're telling me there's a government agent monitoring every craptacular townwide paper, every major paper, and the website of all of these papers, and most people haven't even heard about them yet, because each and every one of these thousands of government agents hasn't talked yet?

That's almost as crazy as the massive Illuminati/NWO/Jewish Cabal conspiracy theories.

Besides, there've been tons of times when something could've been suppressed and would've made it easier on the government. The uranium thing, for example. Or, going back a bit, Blowjobgate.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Ilvane
Of course, now we are asking for the help from the UN. Why not just have done that in the first place?

:grin:

-A

You did. They said NO to War. But America went anyway. How do you spell hypocrits again?

[Artha]

You're completely right about the war though. We should just give it back to saddam and apologize nicely.

[Tendarian]

Bad mouthing? Thats not sanctions at all. Stray was talking as if their whole economy would fall and the US would be doing it grinning evily. It costs France nothing for Bush to say bad about him. It costs France a lot when the free citizens of the US choose not to buy from them. Freedom is a wonderful thing. If you agree with France you should definately buy products that they sell here.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Artha
You're completely right about the war though. We should just give it back to saddam and apologize nicely.

Why not give it back to the people whose country it is? Instead of killing them.

[Tendarian]

Someone find the numbers of innocents Saddam killed in the last 12 years and then compare it to the accidental deaths from this war. I am willing to bet that the first number is way bigger than the second and the second was during WAR

[Ilvane]

If you want to say I'm making an extreme statement, you can try and make it that way.

The major papers in the US are run by people who are either decidedly Democrat or Republican. You will get one story from the Washington Post, and another from the Wall Street Journal..then read the same story in the Boston Herald, and in the the New York times, you will get 5 different versions of the story.

I'm not speaking of small town papers so much, or online papers.

How about the EPA report that was doctored by the government before they sent it out to the press? Do you think we get the whole truth out of them? No.

How about shutting down production of a documentary in the Senate? Why is that so bad?

-A

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Tendarian
Someone find the numbers of innocents Saddam killed in the last 12 years and then compare it to the accidental deaths from this war. I am willing to bet that the first number is way bigger than the second and the second was during WAR

Nice one idiot. Want me to link you to my previous posts where I say its good Saddam is gone?

Now tell me, now that him and his tyranny has gone, what the fuck are you doing there still? Besides sticking your noses in their affairs, as this latest fubar proves? Just what?

[Miss X]

I'm no fan of war, but how much longer could we have ignored the massive human rights atrocities going on in Iraq? How many more innocent people could we sit back and watch die without doing something? Ok, maybe war wasn’t the right thing, but it beats sitting back doing nothing with a 'if its not in my back yard I don’t wanna know' attitude.
V

[Tendarian]

Your right Stray,lets just leave them screwed and leave the hard part for them to figure out. I so totally agree. Hopefully they can sell off enough oil to pay for the damage the war has caused. Anyway id rather have that $87 billion spent here but my moral code said we should help them. Boy was i off!

[Artha]

Now tell me, now that him and his tyranny has gone, what the fuck are you doing there still? Besides sticking your noses in their affairs, as this latest fubar proves? Just what?

Yeah, let's give it back to them when nothing's working right, so that Saddam's cronies can take over again! Good plan, I don't see why we haven't done this yet!

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Miss X
I'm no fan of war, but how much longer could we have ignored the massive human rights atrocities going on in Iraq? How many more innocent people could we sit back and watch die without doing something? Ok, maybe war wasn’t the right thing, but it beats sitting back doing nothing with a 'if its not in my back yard I don’t wanna know' attitude.
V

...again, I will write in capitals so you can read it, GOING THERE TO GET RID OF SADDAM WAS GOOD. WHY ARE YOU STILL THERE NOW HE IS GONE?

PS, the answer is oil.

PPS, oil was the reason you went to war. Humanitarian reasons were a distant second.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Tendarian
Your right Stray,lets just leave them screwed and leave the hard part for them to figure out. I so totally agree. Hopefully they can sell off enough oil to pay for the damage the war has caused. Anyway id rather have that $87 billion spent here but my moral code said we should help them. Boy was i off!

Isn't this just what you did in Afghanistan?

Sure send them money, aid. Etc. But tell all that to the families of the 9 dead. I gather the consensus of the people is they wish you'd all fuck off.

[Artha]

WHY ARE YOU STILL THERE NOW HE IS GONE?

SO THAT SADDAM DOES NOT COME BACK. SO WE CAN GET RID OF THE BA'ATH PARTY SO THAT SADDAM DOES NOT COME BACK. SO THAT IRAQ DOES NOT TURN INTO IRAN V.2.

[Ilvane]

Personally, rather than spending 84 billion on rebuilding what we have basically torn down(some of the bad areas were bad before the war, but some are our making), I wish we would get the Iraqui people working at getting self sufficient. Sure, get the running water going, electricity, food, that's great. But also get them working to sell oil to other countries, have that fun the rebuilding effort for the country.

We have people here in America that need a helping hand, too.

I think it's great we got rid of Saddam too, but at this point it's turning into a mess again.

I don't think that this war is protecting my freedom. I think it's helping the people in Iraq to become safe from a tyrant. I think going after Osama Bin Laden would be protecting our land.;)

Now, I'm not anti military, or anti government. We don't have to look very far back in history to see how the government effected things. Back in WWII we didn't see as much, but in Vietnam they had reporters there, so there was not as much filtering of what was going on. It's the same thing now. If we didn't have reporters there in Iraq, we wouldn't even hear about half of this stuff, because it's reported live on CNN and FOX and the other news stations, it has to be reported in the papers.:grin:

-A

[Miss X]

you cant just go into a country, wipe out their government and leave.....the economy and the country are unstable, if we leave now then its likely a similar type of regieme will be introduced. If he is gone, tell me where he is? Where is the proof hes left Iraq?
V

[StrayRogue]

Again Ilvane, you are the voice of reason.

If you just wanted Saddam out, why not just kill him 10 years ago? The SAS have been there for nearly that amount of time.

[Tendarian]

We stopped a famine in Afghanistand by sending in food after we were done.

[StrayRogue]

Again, I say didn't you just do this to Afghanistan?? What about Vietnam?

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Tendarian
We stopped a famine in Afghanistand by sending in food after we were done.

Thats good. Exactly right. You didn't stop there (for long) blowing the shit out of the residents. Unlike Iraq.

[Tendarian]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Again Ilvane, you are the voice of reason.

If you just wanted Saddam out, why not just kill him 10 years ago? The SAS have been there for nearly that amount of time.

I finally agree with you. We should have killed him 10 years ago but we bowed to world pressure to leave instead of doing what was right.

[Ilvane]

Right now Iraq is going to be unstable until they decide who they want running the country. That can't happen until they get things working right, of course.

Do you all remember the story a couple of weeks back about half of an Iraqi family who were killed in a truck on the way home at curfew time? How horrifying is that?

-A

[Warriorbird]

Of course...conservatives care because they were told to care about "innocent civilians" this time. Where were the Republicans regarding Rwanda and Yugoslavia?

But of course the folks in Rwanda were black and the folks in Yugoslavia were former Communists...and neither had untapped oil wealth for us to exploit. We likely couldn't have gotten away with it there, either.

[Tendarian]

I would go in and help all countries if it was possible. You have to pick and choose which battles will do the most good and which you can handle other ways.

[Tendarian]

I like how the liberals are the champions against predjudice and labeling large groups of people and in their next breath imply all conservatives are racist.

[Ilvane]

I think most of us didn't believe that we were actually going to war for the people of Iraq. It would have made it somewhat better if that had been the case. When I read the stories of people in Iraq on Human rights watch, I truly felt for them. But, I don't believe for a minute that President Bush went there for that. Iraq is an oil goldmine, and now that we are helping the Iraqi's we are hoping to get some access to that goldmine. Not to mention Dick Cheney has Haliburton over there getting tons of contracts for rebuilding!

It's a big sticky situation.

[StrayRogue]

I am of the belief that is right Tendarian. However most if not all countries these days are in it for themselves. Besides what if they do not want your help?

[Tendarian]

If they dont want our help they should be able to refuse it. But like in iraq we couldnt even interview scientists without someone there.

[Artha]

When I read the stories of people in Iraq on Human rights watch, I truly felt for them. But, I don't believe for a minute that President Bush went there for that.

I'm not normally an ends justify the means person...but the ends justify the means.

[Warriorbird]

"I like how the liberals are the champions against predjudice and labeling large groups of people and in their next breath imply all conservatives are racist."

Who said I was anywhere near a textbook liberal? But, of course, you can't cope with being proven wrong, racism or no, so you have to insult...

[Tendarian]

How was i proven wrong? Im not a Dubya spokes person i gave my reply and didnt feel wrong. Did you read it? I said we should be helping other people if they are in need. I wasnt insulting you,just you implied racism for the US no going into Rawanda and i was showing the hypocricy or trying to.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Tendarian
If they dont want our help they should be able to refuse it. But like in iraq we couldnt even interview scientists without someone there.

You couldn't in America either.

"hi, I want to see your nuclear weapons".

[Tendarian]

You see a difference between countries in Europe and Canada and Japan and the US versus countries like Iran and Iraq and North Korea right?

[StrayRogue]

There is no difference at all in that regards. You own weapons, Iraq owned weapons (HA!), both have the same end result. I'll take your point seriously as soon as I can come to your country and look at your weapons of mass destruction without military guard.

[Ilvane]

:grin: Can you imagine if someone came into the US and said, "Show us where all your weapons are, and let us talk to your weapons scientists and have them tell us all they know, or we will go to war with you!" ?

First, we would not show where are weapons were, we wouldn't let them know what our technology was, we certainly wouldn't cooperate..

It's almost amusing to think about :lol:

-A

[Tendarian]

I dont know what to say Stray. I thought it was painfully obvious the difference between the countries i listed.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Ilvane
:grin: Can you imagine if someone came into the US and said, "Show us where all your weapons are, and let us talk to your weapons scientists and have them tell us all they know, or we will go to war with you!" ?

First, we would not show where are weapons were, we wouldn't let them know what our technology was, we certainly wouldn't cooperate..

It's almost amusing to think about :lol:

-A

My point exactly.

[Artha]

Guess what, we're not the same as Iraq. How you can fail to see this and still be a functioning human being is a mystery to me.

[StrayRogue]

...idiot. He said "They wouldn't let us see their WMD's without supervision". In that context, how are any different? Context, point of view, you know that thing Obi was talking about?

[Ilvane]

Rather than trying to insult me, why don't you explain to me what the difference is?

Why are we held to a lesser standard?

I'm not an idiot, Artha.

We are considered the good guys, in some places. But I'm sure some countries feel threatened by us.

-A

[Tendarian]

Ok if you dont think there is a difference even the UN which you all tout as something good sees a difference.

[Artha]

Alright...

Iraq - UN says 'Show us your weapons, or we're going to bitchslap you, fool'. They are about as uncooperative as you can be and not get bitchslapped. I don't know if you heard about this in anti-war, BBC-is-the-only-news England, but they did things like cause car crashes to delay the inspectors, or lock gates and 'lose' the key/person who knows the code.

US - You walk into a military base and say 'let me see your weapons'. Military guy thinks you're crazy.

[Edited on 9-14-2003 by Artha]

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Artha
Alright...

Iraq - UN says 'Show us your weapons, or we're going to bitchslap you, fool'. They are about as uncooperative as you can be and not get bitchslapped. I don't know if you heard about this in anti-war, BBC-is-the-only-news England, but they did things like cause car crashes to delay the inspectors, or lock gates and 'lose' the key/person who knows the code.

US - You walk into a military base and say 'let me see your weapons'. Military guy thinks you're crazy.

[Edited on 9-14-2003 by Artha]

But they did show you their weapons didn't they?

As for BBC be all end all...its nice to see what kind of ignorant person you really are Artha. Lets see...three terrestrial channels independant of BBC, not including the three digital packages (999 channels available on each).

[Tendarian]

Stray you need to watch sky news! (isnt that the incredibly conservative fox news there?) :)

[StrayRogue]

Something like that yeah. I don't have access to Sky in my new house though.

[Artha]

its nice to see what kind of ignorant person you really are Artha.

I don't live in England, however, I figured I'd be like you in pretending to know something about your countries media.


But they did show you their weapons didn't they?

That depends, did you have the UN threaten to bitchslap them?

And another thing...our weapons are in pretty easy to see silos. Yes, some are underground (remnants from the cold war), or hidden in mountains or whatever...but quite a few are in visible places. Iraqs, however, were in schools, or palaces, or hospitals. Now, I'd bet that they're either buried in the desert or in Syria.

[Miss X]

we have BBC, ITN, C4, and 5news on our terrestial channels. Then tons of world news channels on digital TV which most people have, including fox, cnn, skynews etc. Its pretty easy to get a world wide view of things that happen these days.

[Carl Spackler]

Here is how I feel about this occupying Iraq business. I can imagine that it may suck to have your country occupied, and I guarantee that the US will not be there any longer than to set up a stable government. The US's interest is not only oil, I can see where that would definetly be part of the issue, but getting the regime out was the most important task at hand. And that doesn't just include Saddam and his two sons. It includes all his fucked up fanatical disciples. Once that is done the economy can be rebuilt and stable leadership established. And until then the US and the UK are going to have to be there, because the Iraqi people don't have the power to control his followers yet.

-Steve

[Warriorbird]

"I said we should be helping other people if they are in need."

Certainly....now, about North Korea and Nigeria...

[Artha]

Hopefully NK is on the list. We should've invaded Nigeria years ago...if for nothing more than that stupid e-mail scam.

[Edited on 9-14-2003 by Artha]

[Tendarian]

I agree we should do what we can to help Nigeria and N Korea. Be that by physically going in or trying other means im not sure but something should be done. Im shocked you didnt say China.

[Artha]

China frightens me.

[Back]

I cannot remember where I read it nor can I produce the link, but the US government paid CNN to help manage the coverage of the war.

The BBC, while being a great unbiased source for world news, was caught up in the softening of the war, but only because they were being loyal to Blair I think.

Almost all of our news comes from Associated Press and Reuters. I believe they are fairly unbiased, AP moreso than Reuters anyway. So all your smalltown papers really get their world news from these two sources.

What bothers me more than anything is seeing "officials who wished to remain annonymous" as a source for important news stories. With the two guys who were filing false stories lately (They both have book deals now) how are we to believe anything with such ambiguous sources?

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
How much coverage did you guys get on the murders of the 8 iraqi Policemen? Its been on the news, in the papers since it happened. I know the Gov. there likes to keep things hush hush, so just what has been said about this most recent fuck up?



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Artha
A bit, actually. Our media's not directly related to our government
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nice mistake, mo mo. You think the Gov. has no control over the media? And does not excersize this control when it needs to? Seriously, the more I listen, the more I laugh...


Can you just talk and exchange ideas about differing political ideas without immediately stooping to insults?

Give it a try, you may be pleasantly surprised at what you find.

Of course if you like just enjoy trolling and happily finding people ready to leap at your trolling then please continue as you were.

[Betheny]

I don't watch the news. I don't read newspapers. I refuse to live in fear. When the American media can grow up and realize they don't need to make people pee their pants and want to slit their wrists instead of walk out their door but still report the news, I'll ponder watching it. Until then, I rely on friends and people of a more news-savvy nature than I to let me know what's going on.