Did you know....

[Solkern]

I read in the papers a few days ago, that 63% of all suicides from the ages 16-24 are school related? what are your thoughts on that?

[Trinitis]

That our current education system sucks ass..

-Adredrin

[Solkern]

It scares me, a few weeks ago, my old high school friends billy fenny, Comminted suicide, he had a full basketball scholarship, but he didn't want to play b-ball, and it was the only way his family could get him through school. pressure, got to him. Another good person lost

[GSLeloo]

Um... I'm in school, I can see why!

Originally posted by Solkern
It scares me, a few weeks ago, my old high school friends billy fenny, Comminted suicide, he had a full basketball scholarship, but he didn't want to play b-ball, and it was the only way his family could get him through school. pressure, got to him. Another good person lost

Thats pathetic.

Anyone weak enough to committ suicide deserves to die.

I dunno what it is, but where i was from suicide was unheard of. I never really even experienced anybody who thought about it till i joined the Army. And i can honestly say i have no respect for the notion.

[Ilvane]

I think that school has more pressure than it used to when we were growing up.

Now adays a lot of parents have expectations of thier children and we really expect a lot more of young teens before they go to college, and get jobs, etc..

-A

[Bobmuhthol]

90% of suicide attempts are women.

80% of all successful suicide attempts are men.

Hahaha. Women can't kill themselves correctly.

[Artha]

80% of all successful suicide attempts are men.

Is it still an attempt if it's successful?


63% of all suicides from the ages 16-24 are school related

Between the ages of 16 and 24, what else is there to kill yourself over?

[IcyPoison]

Side Topic.. Who here has wanted to kill themselves?

[Drew2]

Wanted to? Yes. Tried? Not really.

[imported_Kranar]

I have no sympathy for people who want to kill themselves, infact I'm actually pretty harsh about it.

My position is that if someone wants to do it, you know we all die at some point so go ahead. All I ask that one not do it in a public area where it could draw attention. Once a guy did it in the subway and it just stalled the train for like 45 minutes and I was pretty ticked. Just go to a basement or some dark quiet corner and do it in peace. No need to announce it before hand either because those tend to just be last cries for attention.

[Bestatte]

Well considering that probably around 80% of all people aged 16-24 go to school, at least 5 hours a day, and whose peers are generally in their classrooms with them 5 days out of the week, it isn't surprising.

Statistics are, statistically speaking, statistically unreliable.

I mean, I'll bet that 80% of all work-related suicides happen to people between the age of 24 and 63.

I'll also bet that 80% of domestic spousal abuse happens to women between the age of 16 and 50, AND that at least 99% of those women are actually and truly women (as opposed to men trapped in women's bodies or some such.).

Gotta love statistics. They're chock full of meaningless nothings.

[peam]

72% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

[Caels]

I miss school, and I would gladly go back.

[CrystalTears]

I'm going to come off as a real insensitive person here (wow, big surprise I know :P) but if they can't hack school and feel the need to kill themselves because they were dumped or because no one invited them to dance at a party, then perhaps it was best that they eliminate themselves from this world. The rest of life after school is no better and no easier, and if they can't hack it there, bubye.

[Edited on 9/13/2003 by CrystalTears]

[Caels]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
90% of suicide attempts are women.

80% of all successful suicide attempts are men.

Hahaha. Women can't kill themselves correctly.

It not that they can't, its probably more the effect that guys are more willing to rush their aid.

[Solkern]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I'm going to come off as a real insensitive person here (wow, big surprise I know :P) but if they can't hack school and feel the need to kill themselves because they were dumped or because no one invited them to dance at a party, then perhaps it was best that they eliminate themselves from this world. The rest of life after school is no better and no easier, and if they can't hack it there, bubye.

[Edited on 9/13/2003 by CrystalTears]

And how would you feel if your child did that?

[CrystalTears]

I would be devastated, absolutely, but I would have also been more aware of his depression and tried to get it corrected before it got to that state. People don't go from happy to suicide (not often anyway) and I don't feel that I would allow it to get that far in the first place.

[Solkern]

Oh and i'm not applying anything at all, dnt say my child would never do something like that, just how would you feel, if your child killed themselves?

[Solkern]

Actually your QUITE wrong, crystaltears, My friend billly, His closest friends had no idea, hiw family had no idea, they partied with him the night before it happened, and he seemed happy like he always was, next day, he hanged himself.....

[Solkern]

Well your not wrong, you did say that not often anyways, But you can't assume, that they will show signs, you cant assume anything

[CrystalTears]

I already said I would be devastated. My original statement never meant that I'm jumping for joy for their riddance. It's a terrible thing to see someone take their life like that.

[Solkern]

I know you never said your wrong, thats why I corrected myself in the next post :) i was just applyiong, that you can't expect to se signs of someone being depressed or wanting to commit suicide :) sorry for the mix up crystal

[imported_Kranar]

Many people who kill themselves do appear happy on the outside. I don't think it's the geeks or anti-social people who are exclusively comitting suicide, suicide applies equally even to the very socially active people, guys who play sports, party and so on who do so but they lack any internal hapiness. The example given in this thread involved a person who had a basketball scholarship but killed himself because of the pressure. Of course that doesn't mean that people who are socially active are likely to kill themselves, it just means that suicide is independent of how socially active one is.

People are totally different when they're alone than when they're in public.

[Edited on 9-13-2003 by Kranar]

Originally posted by Solkern
Oh and i'm not applying anything at all, dnt say my child would never do something like that, just how would you feel, if your child killed themselves?

I'd feel that my child was weak. I'd probaly wonder if it was my fault or not. but that wouldn't change the feelings.

[imported_Kranar]

It would be as if my child comitted murder.

[HarmNone]

I cannot imagine what a parent would feel if their child took his/her own life. I would think that would be the most horrible thing a parent could experience. Grief, remorse, incalculable loss all rolled into one.

It makes me shudder to think of it.

HarmNone

[Ravenstorm]

When I was in college, someone I knew socially (though not exactly a friend) killed himself. His parents came down to collect his things and attend a memorial for him. Since we were acquaintances, I met them briefly.


Originally posted by HarmNone
I cannot imagine what a parent would feel if their child took his/her own life. I would think that would be the most horrible thing a parent could experience. Grief, remorse, incalculable loss all rolled into one.

Yes.

Raven


Edited to add:

I think the opinion that someone killed himself because he was 'weak' or because of 'pressure' is a very simplistic view.

It's a fairly obvious conclusion that suicide is related to depression which has its roots in genetics and biochemistry. Weak? Please.

[Edited on 9-13-2003 by Ravenstorm]

[imported_Kranar]

More and more people want to dish out the genetic excuse for everything.

Oh it's not my fault, it's my DNA, don't blame me! I'm not weak, my DNA is just abnormal. I didn't choose to do this or be this way, I have no control over my life, it's all DNA! I do what my DNA tells me to do.

People need to start to learn that regardless of DNA or blah blah blah, that they are ultimately in control of their life and their decisions.

[imported_Kranar]

Oh and if the above opinion seems harsh...

It's just my DNA talking. It does that sometimes...

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Kranar
Oh and if the above opinion seems harsh...

It's just my DNA talking. It does that sometimes...

Heh. Kranar, shove a sock in your DNA, eh? :D

HarmNone could not resist

[imported_Kranar]

My DNA is preventing me from doing that!

Damn... genetics... controlling my life... can't fight it... hopeless.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Kranar
My DNA is preventing me from doing that!

Damn... genetics... controlling my life... can't fight it... hopeless.

Kranar, I truly does love ya! Too funny!

HarmNone is still laughing

[Ravenstorm]

It is indeed a person's responsibility. That does not negate the fact that someone can be predisposed to despression. Eventually, they might figure it out and get treatment. Unfortunately, being successful at suicide does not allow you an 'eventually'.

Plus the fact that the hopelessness brought about by depression, by definition, usually means the person feels no hope for improvement. It's a vicious Catch 22. To expect someone with a condition that affects their thinking to be able to recognize that isn't exactly fair. it is, after all, affecting their thinking and can not be compared to someone who goes to McDonalds ten times a week.

Raven

[HarmNone]

I agree that many people who are suffering from severe depression do become suicidal. I will also agree that this is not the fault of that person, and that person has no control over his/her aberrant thoughts. Depression is a treatable disease, and we can only hope that education and improved communication will get those who suffer from it the help they need and deserve.

Part of the problem that causes people to turn away in disgust from those who threaten suicide is that many are simply using the threat as a manipulative tool. After being exposed to this manipulative behavior over a period of time, the result is desensitization to the very real problem of depressives who are suicidal.

Borderline Personality Disorder is on the rise in the USA (I do not know about world-wide), and borderlines are notorious for threatening suicide when they do not get what they want. These are some of the people who are causing heartbreak for those who truly need, and will benefit from help.

HarmNone

[GSLeloo]

School does apply a lot of pressure. You have these grades that are supposed to somehow determine who you are and if you don't test well and get a nice F it's like "guess what, you're a failure"

Then there's the other students. If you somehow stick out from the crowd (funny teeth, really obese, weird nose, weird features) they will pick on you. And basically you have say the entire football team teasing you while all the popular girls talk shit and snicker as they glance at you.

Then you have the teachers that don't really care what the other students are saying. And the teachers that purposely pick on certain kids in the class because they're in a pissy mood.

So now you have the tests themselves. AP tests, finals, GEPA's, Terra Novas, SATs... all these tests that are soemehow supposed to determine who you are and you get so nervous that you're ready to pull out your hair.

So yes, school does add to teen suicide because it stresses you out so much that you feel death is easier than facing another day of this.

[Savanae]

School can be a serious stress factor for alot of kids. I admit I tried for alot of diferent reasons when I was in eigth grade, school being a large factor in my attempt that obviously failed.

I have to say some good came out of the experience. I was diagnosed as manic depressive and was put on the right medications to help me cope. I am not ashamed of my past. It has helped make me the person I am today. I did learn a very valuable lesson from it though, a quote I use any time I feel like I am falling into that black pit....

Suicide is a permanent answer to a temporary problem.

Savanae

[Edited on 9-14-2003 by Savanae]

[imported_Kranar]

<< Suicide is a permanent answer to a temporary problem. >>

That's actually a very nice and elegant quote.

Do you remember who it's from?

[Xcalibur]

We got, I think, one of the highest rate of "per citizen" suicide here, hail us.


Still, I believe in the end it's the person's choice, egoist, but it's his choice, gotta let him decide of his life till the end.

[HarmNone]

The actual wording is:

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem: Phil Donahue

[Savanae]

Originally posted by Kranar
<< Suicide is a permanent answer to a temporary problem. >>

That's actually a very nice and elegant quote.

Do you remember who it's from?

I don't remember hearing anyone say it actually, I was talking to one of the neighbor teens about ten years ago or so and he was spiraling down into that bad place and its just something I said to him to make him think. I don't know where I got it it just kinda came out is all. I have been using it ever since.

Savanae

[Edited on 9-14-2003 by Savanae]

[Savanae]

Originally posted by HarmNone
The actual wording is:

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem: Phil Donahue

Ok that makes sence then My mother was a big Donahue fan.

Savanae

[GS4Gurl]

Wana hear something really whacked..

Okay this is crazy but here goes. I went to this private school. This school was also a independant Baptist Church. This school was strict to the extreme. Girls could not wear pants. Boys had to have short tapered hair. Could not even wear tennis shoes. Could not listen to rock music, or buy, rent, or go to movies. These people tried to control your private home life. Boys had to sit six in away from girls. You could not hug those of the opposite sex ever at anytime unless you were married to them. Which means no holding hands or smooching. If you did any thing you were kicked out of school. You got demerits if you were late to class even by a second. Most of these people went along with these rules gladly because they were brainwashed. They had a Bible verse for every rule. Men couldnt have facial hair yet they wouldn't answer the question why Jesus had a beard. ha

Anyway I had to give a little background to my story. My classmate while in that churches college got caught kissing a girl. His father was a associate pastor so it brought him shame. So the boy killed himself.

Over that! Over kissing a girl. Is that not the saddest if not the most infuriating thing you have ever heard of?!

I hate these crazy ass strict churches that brainwash people into thinking they will go to hell if they watch a freakin movie!

This boy was a really good guy. He was kind and funny and had a great future ahead of him. He was always helpful and it was just such a awful waste. We were in the same class from 4th grade til graduation. He never got in trouble for anything.

I don't even go to church today. Not necessarily because of that but because they're all hypocrites who have people believe THEIR interpretation of the Bible. Besides mom made us go to a Baptist church. I don't know what I am but I don't feel like a Baptist thats for sure. heh. Maybe I will have no religion. Okay Ill stop rambling now. eesh...

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

My Dad told me once that if I ever thought about killing myself, use a gun in the mouth. He wanted me to be a man about it.

Tough love.

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
When I was in college, someone I knew socially (though not exactly a friend) killed himself. His parents came down to collect his things and attend a memorial for him. Since we were acquaintances, I met them briefly.


Originally posted by HarmNone
I cannot imagine what a parent would feel if their child took his/her own life. I would think that would be the most horrible thing a parent could experience. Grief, remorse, incalculable loss all rolled into one.

Yes.

Raven


Edited to add:

I think the opinion that someone killed himself because he was 'weak' or because of 'pressure' is a very simplistic view.

It's a fairly obvious conclusion that suicide is related to depression which has its roots in genetics and biochemistry. Weak? Please.

[Edited on 9-13-2003 by Ravenstorm]

I've been diagnosed with depression since kindergarden and have the paperwork to prove it. I've also lived a very traumatic life.

So yea, i think Weak is exactly the word i was looking for.

[Scott]

RangerD1, forgive me for asking, but I thought if you were diagnosed with a mental illness (which includes depression) you were not admitted into the military. I could be wrong on this but....... if it's true, how are you a member of the military?

Originally posted by Gemstone101
RangerD1, forgive me for asking, but I thought if you were diagnosed with a mental illness (which includes depression) you were not admitted into the military. I could be wrong on this but....... if it's true, how are you a member of the military?

Dunno, never really asked. I Didn't actually know it myself until i dug through my moms old school records. I knew i had mandatory counciling up until the 10th grade when i refused to go to the shit anymore, but i always assumed it was to help me get over all the shit i was going through.

So its kinda hard to declare something when you don't know about it yourself, and since i've demonstrated my ability to function normally anyway they'd probaly have a hard time building a case to get me out.

Originally posted by RangerD1

Originally posted by Gemstone101
RangerD1, forgive me for asking, but I thought if you were diagnosed with a mental illness (which includes depression) you were not admitted into the military. I could be wrong on this but....... if it's true, how are you a member of the military?

Dunno, never really asked. I Didn't actually know it myself until i dug through my moms old school records. I knew i had mandatory counciling up until the 10th grade when i refused to go to the shit anymore, but i always assumed it was to help me get over all the shit i was going through.

So its kinda hard to declare something when you don't know about it yourself, and since i've demonstrated my ability to function normally anyway they'd probaly have a hard time building a case to get me out.

Oh, keep in mind i've come along away since i was a kid and i'm nowhere near the same person i was then.

My father used to tear me down hardcore, so i used to have serious self esteem issues, but when i got away from him and got out there on my own i realized i had afew things going for me. That and when your 16, 17 doing your own thing you don't have alot of time to feel sorry for yourself.

[Scott]

Oh. All I heard was that they checked your mental history because someone I knew was turned down because he was diagnosed with depression. He asked why and they told him "If you've been diagnosed with a mental illness that which requires medication (which would include depression of coarse), it goes on record." I didn't really know much other then what I heard which is why I was asking. I don't know why they turned him down then.... weird.

[Tendarian]

That sounds like an awfully mild version of depression. To claim people are weak for attempting suicide as you have depression and didnt is silly.

Originally posted by Tendarian
That sounds like an awfully mild version of depression. To claim people are weak for attempting suicide as you have depression and didnt is silly.

What sounds like mild depression? I never once stated how i felt or anything that happened.

Medication was offered on several occasions but was never taken for 2 reasons 1) It was too exspensive, and my mother didn't have insurance that would cover it and 2) My father misdiagnosed with Schizophrenia he had PTSD and was addicted to medication, so my mother refused to let me on any type of behavior modifying drugs.

I used to go to sleep at night and pray with every ounce of my being that i would never wake up in the morning.

My friends still tell me about the years where i wouldn't even crack a smile.

Not to mention the 2 complete breakdowns i had before i was 16.

Just because i wasn't a little bitch and didn't try to off myself doesn't mean i didn' thave my own shit to sort through.

Personally i feel suicide is one of the most selfish things you can ever do. What about your friends and family who care about you. How do you think they feel when you off yourself. But i guess that shit doesn' t matter as long as you don't have to deal with it, right?


Or what about the people who have it 10, 100X or even a thousand times worse than you do?

I had it pretty rough, but it still pales in comparison to some of the shit people have to go through on a lifely basis worldwide. So why should i be so presumptious to assume that my problems are irreconsilible.

So again, i think Weak is the word i'm looking for.

Originally posted by Gemstone101
Oh. All I heard was that they checked your mental history because someone I knew was turned down because he was diagnosed with depression. He asked why and they told him "If you've been diagnosed with a mental illness that which requires medication (which would include depression of coarse), it goes on record." I didn't really know much other then what I heard which is why I was asking. I don't know why they turned him down then.... weird.


I dunno, usually what happens is you get this check list of every thing imaginable (do you have aids, ever broken a bone) etc and you have to own to everything. When you check Yes on something, they go back and ask you what it was for, and your recent history blah blah blah. Usually people can get past alot of things just by not bringing it up. Alot of recruiters will even tell people this. (Yea they're shady)

I didn' t really know jack and i wasn't about to volunteer that i had mandatory councouling. (man i keep butchering that word) So i guess it never really came up. Even if they did investigate my history (Which i doubt) They probaly wouldn't have found a whole lot, because i never went through a physician or personal shrink, just the school boards and Chicago school systems whole program is kinda iffy. I found that out when i went back after finding my moms documents to try and get the rest. Apparently each individual shrink keeps their own personal records, and the schools don't track them very well.

Moral of the story. Don't own up to anything with the government.

[Tsa`ah]

I think it's too broad of a statement to say anyone who commits suicide is weak. In fact, it's damned ignorant.

Everyone has issues in life stemming from a number of experiences. In today's society it's not uncommon to have a very rough childhood.

Those that commit suicide are rarely mentally stable. That they have gone as far to end their existence would indicate mental incompetence.

So what is weaker? Not caring enough as a society to recognize someone is ill? Or writing off what we don't understand and refuse to accept? I would say both are equally and greatly weak.

There are cases, and I have sighted one in the past, where some choose death by their own means rather than waiting to waste away and die by some terminal illness. I'm sorry guy, that takes courage. I find nothing weak about someone choosing when they die instead of waiting for that inoperable brain tumor to finish the job.

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
I think it's too broad of a statement to say anyone who commits suicide is weak. In fact, it's damned ignorant.

Everyone has issues in life stemming from a number of experiences. In today's society it's not uncommon to have a very rough childhood.

Those that commit suicide are rarely mentally stable. That they have gone as far to end their existence would indicate mental incompetence.

So what is weaker? Not caring enough as a society to recognize someone is ill? Or writing off what we don't understand and refuse to accept? I would say both are equally and greatly weak.

There are cases, and I have sighted one in the past, where some choose death by their own means rather than waiting to waste away and die by some terminal illness. I'm sorry guy, that takes courage. I find nothing weak about someone choosing when they die instead of waiting for that inoperable brain tumor to finish the job.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule Tsa'ash, but lets not forget that this whole thread started with someone stating a statistic about kids 16-24 and school.

Out of the 47% of kids who commit suicide for reasons outside of school, what percentage do you think did so because of terminal illness (which i will concede is probaly one of the very limited reasons as to when suicide would even be comtemplatable.)

It is a general statement (one which i stand by) and as such shouldn't be applied to every single person in every single situation.

And frankly if somebody is "Ill" enough to terminate their own life, because their steady pussy cut them off, then maybe its just another classic example of darwinism.

[Tsa`ah]

Being "cut off" would just be the trigger. To commit suicide, outside of exception, would indicate past to present mental illness. The conclusion to take one's only life due to said trigger indicates complete mental incompetence. The signs of mental illness are, in all probability, prevalent and evident. We as a society tend to ignore those signs.

[Tendarian]

When i was 20 or so i cut myself pretty bad at work but didnt wanna pay for stitches. I was bleeding pretty bad but i got it under control and after about 4 or 5 hours of pressure it didnt bleed anymore. Everyone told me i should have had stitches. Therefore anyone who does get stitches is weak.

[imported_Kranar]

Tendarian that made no sense and was completely off-topic to boot.

The thing that really irks me is that yes, there are VERY RARE mental illnesses that end up causing someone to do something they don't want to do or know what they're doing. Sleepwalking is one such example, legal insanity is another case and the same with being extremely drunk.

Most suicides DO NOT fall under this category. But people just love to use those minor 1 percent exceptions to justify the 99 percent rule. Most suicides are conscious acts, someone consciously and knowingly planned their suicide (maybe they only planned it for 5 minutes, they still planned it). Those people DECIDED to kill themselves, their DNA didn't tell them to do it, voices in their head didn't tell them to do it, THEY willingly choose that path and therefore they are responsible for it.

Those people are indeed, weak. When someone has an illness, they have a responsibility to determine what that illness is. That's a responsibility they have to themselves and to those around them whom the illness may affect. No one is going to hold their hand for them and do it for them, it's ultimately their responsibility. Just like if I have some deadly virus that can infect many other people, I have a duty to seek a doctor to atleast verify it.

If they are thinking seriously about suicide, then that's an indicator they may be suffering from depression. They then have a responsibility to seek some sort of professional help or seek a counsellor, talk to a teacher, phone the Kids Help Line, something, anything. If they didn't do so, then they CHOSE not to do so, and that makes them not only irresponsible, but weak.

Many people have problems in this world, little teens nowadays killing themselves because Molly broke up with them isn't anything new and isn't something the whole world should stop for. It is something, however, that the individual can work to correct and when they do they will have made a significant accomplishment.

[CrystalTears]

Okay, after thinking it over, I've realized my views are pretty much on target with what Kranar said. I may not have expressed myself very well previously, obviously.

[Tendarian]

It scares me that in this day and age people think like Kranar about this. Depression is like losing your vision. You dont just go from 20/20 to 20/160 you slowly over time fall into the hole and dont realize it. By the time you look up,the hole your in seems so insanely huge it is just not worth trying to dig back up. A lot of depression comes with anxiety disorders as well which can make you social phobic and so going out to get help can feel impossible.

[CrystalTears]

Yes but even then you have to realize that you and only you needs to be the one to seek the help you need, including the fact of how difficult it is to do.

Using depression as a crutch to allow you do and say as you feel can only get you so far before people give up trying to help because people like that tend to blame the world and others for their failures rather than themselves.

[Edited on 9/14/2003 by CrystalTears]

[imported_Kranar]

<< It scares me that in this day and age people think like Kranar about this. >>

What a ridiculous statement. Next thing you know... it's perfectly acceptable for schizophrenics to commit murder, because it's not their fault it's their brain's fault. They're not responsible for their actions or their lives, it's all their brain.

And hey Tendarian, don't blame me for the way I think, don't be afraid of me because of how I think. Blame society, blame my education system, blame my parents, blame... who else... let me think... oh my government, blame T.V., I play a lot of violent video games, like GTA3 and Warcraft III, so blame those too.

Just please, blame everyone but me, because us puny humans, we're not in control of our lives, we don't consciously make decisions, we're just drones who respond to stimulus... either chemical stimulus in the brain or outside stimulus like T.V.

That's the world we live in isn't it...

[Tendarian]

Im not saying we should blame other people. Where did i mention anything like that? If i had a cold and my nose was runny it isnt cause im weak. A mental illness is an illness whether you think it is or not. Im not saying its anyone elses fault either if a person commits suicide. When you debate Kranar you tend to bring things in which have no business in that discussion.

[imported_Kranar]

<< When you debate Kranar you tend to bring things in which have no business in that discussion. >>

Like going on an entire story about not getting stiches right?

Come on... you were called on it, leave it at that.

<< Im not saying we should blame other people. Where did i mention anything like that? >>

Lack of comprehension will not get you out of this one. The entire point of my post was that INDIVIDUALS are accountable for their OWN actions. Blaming the education system for suicide is not an excuse, blaming chemical reactions in the brain is not an excuse, blaming video games is not an excuse. There IS not an excuse.

When you suffer from depression, just like if you suffer from ebola, you are required to seek some sort of help.

I won't believe for one second that an individual is too depressed to pick up a phone and call the Kids Help Line to talk to someone for 5 minutes about it. That somehow an individual has more energy to get a gun or a knife and kill themselves than to pick up a phone and call someone who can give them real valuable help.

The fact that people can do that indicates weakness, and it's not something I pity or feel sympathy for. All the help in the world is available to these people, they CHOOSE not to accept it.

[Edited on 9-14-2003 by Kranar]

[CrystalTears]

I don't think anyone's disagreeing with the fact that mental illness IS an illness. What some are debating is that it's not an excuse to allow you to behave anyway you want to. If you cut your finger, you're going to get medical attention of some kind, you won't sit there and bleed and say, "Well it's those damned knives, who made them so sharp." Yeah okay whatever just stop bleeding already. Whatever reasons they got there does not excuse that they still need help, and resorting to suicide is a shortcut way out.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Heh, can't say I agree with Kranar very often, but on this I agree with him. Someone said America has the highest suicide rate in the world...

My hypothesis why? Glad you ask. It is because we are hands down the most superficial country. You think kids starving in Ethiopia are going... "I'm going to kill myself, Betsy in school told me I look annorexic." Hell no, they are thinking, I wonder if I eat that tree bark, will it fill me up? Our sorry ass society is full of pity party fuck ups that think because they didn't get the latest version of a gameboy they should kill themselves.

Nut up and realize, folks have it worse than you. I've been "depressed", just like everyone else. Best cure for depression isn't drugs, its friends and family not coddling you and pulling you out of it forcefully. We spend too much time, in my opinion, analyzing and prescribing, instead of telling them to suck it up.

[Tendarian]

<<Like going on an entire story about not getting stiches right? >>

Someone had said they were depressed once and didnt kill themselves so everyone else was weak who did do that. I was trying to make a point or somethin :)

<<blaming chemical reactions in the brain is not an excuse>>

This is just silly. Sorry but it is,it is proven that a lack of serotonin in the brain can cause depression. Its not something made up like blaming video games for violence.

<<The fact that people can do that indicates weakness>>

Not it doesnt mean they are weak. Unless you say that people of all illnesses who get the symptoms are weak too.

<< it's not something I pity or feel sympathy for.>>

Im not arguing that as i dont think this really matters.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Tendarian
<<blaming chemical reactions in the brain is not an excuse>>

This is just silly. Sorry but it is,it is proven that a lack of serotonin in the brain can cause depression. Its not something made up like blaming video games for violence.

Being sick still not mean you can use it as an excuse. I don't think you understand what is being expressed here.

[Tendarian]

<<Being sick still not mean you can use it as an excuse. I don't think you understand what is being expressed here.>>
I dont think you really understand how real depression works then. When people are depressed they dont think straight. They sleep 12 hours a day. They dont think,hey my thinking is messed up i should go get some help.

[CrystalTears]

I LIVE with someone with chronic depression and even HE knows that his actions affect the world around him and seeks help rather than blaming the world. As hard as it is for him to do because it IS a rough thing to go through, he still takes care of himself instead of blaming others or society for it. It's a medical condition which he gets treated, just like any other illness.


They dont think,hey my thinking is messed up i should go get some help.

That's exactly what they're supposed to do and some refuse to because they honestly believe that it's others making them feel that way other than the illness.

[Edited on 9/14/2003 by CrystalTears]

[imported_Kranar]

<< Sorry but it is,it is proven that a lack of serotonin in the brain can cause depression. >>

Yes it is proven that it can cause depression. But no amount of depression can willingly cause you to do something that you do not want to do. In the end, although depression will have an influence on an you, you are ultimately the one who gives into it, you are ultimately the one who makes that choice, and you are ultimately the one who can refuse to make that choice and seek the appropriate aid.

<< Not it doesnt mean they are weak. Unless you say that people of all illnesses who get the symptoms are weak too. >>

Anyone who has an illness and willingly chooses to sulk and do nothing about it is weak. Like people may get a disease and sit around feeling sorry for themselves doing nothing about it, they too are weak.

Many will suffer from depression, or some other illness, and they will stand against it. They will make use of this first world nation and all the billions of dollars in resources pumped into it and they will survive it.

That's not weakness, that's something to admire.

[Tendarian]

All the depressed people i know dont blame others or the world. They just hate themselves. Some get treatment and it works and some choose not but i dont look down on the ones that dont as being weak.

[Tendarian]

Alright i guess im done arguing as im the only one who thinks this way. Im not doing a cop out either :) Im just gonna think about it and talk to myself heh. I honestly was thinking people were trying to say depression wasnt a real illness. Beause to me blaming violence on video games isnt real and is an excuse to justify. So when they were used together i assumed (which is stupid i know) that what was being said was that depression wasnt real.

Originally posted by Tendarian
It scares me that in this day and age people think like Kranar about this. Depression is like losing your vision. You dont just go from 20/20 to 20/160 you slowly over time fall into the hole and dont realize it. By the time you look up,the hole your in seems so insanely huge it is just not worth trying to dig back up. A lot of depression comes with anxiety disorders as well which can make you social phobic and so going out to get help can feel impossible.

Jesus fucking christ. You act like people who kill themselves are facing a problem that NO ONE ELSE has ever had to endure.

You act like everyone who suffers from mild to serious depression kills themselves. Get a grip.

Your problems are no less serious than someone elses somewhere, so sack the fuck up and dig your ass out of the hole. If you don't have the desire or propensity to do so, then thats YOUR problem, not mine or anybody elses.

I could sit here and break down how i felt, that mirrors everything your saying and the ways i used to survive it, but whats the point?

If somebody wants to find out they'll look down into themselves and find a way to survive, instead of taking the pussy way out.

[Tendarian]

Im not depressed RangerD1. Hence i wouldnt commit suicide or anything of the like. My life is happy i have a girlfriend and the future is looking good to me. But thanks for caring.

Originally posted by Tendarian
<<Being sick still not mean you can use it as an excuse. I don't think you understand what is being expressed here.>>
I dont think you really understand how real depression works then. When people are depressed they dont think straight. They sleep 12 hours a day. They dont think,hey my thinking is messed up i should go get some help.


Yes because we've never once experienced anything close to depression, or known somebody who has. We must all be completely oblivious to how hard YOU or somebody else has it. After all, No one ever has gone through {Insert trite experience here}

-edited to correct glaring gramatticly error. :)

[Edited on 9-14-2003 by RangerD1]

Originally posted by Tendarian
Im not depressed RangerD1. Hence i wouldnt commit suicide or anything of the like. My life is happy i have a girlfriend and the future is looking good to me. But thanks for caring.

Anytime.

[Tsa`ah]

No sense in even debating this anymore. To many armchair shrinks jumping in and there's no debating their expertise.

Sorry if that offends anyone, but that's just what I'm seeing.

[imported_Kranar]

There's nothing to offend. It was really just an empty statement. I can jump into any thread I want that I disagree with and say exactly what you said.

Doesn't mean much really.