SIG P-239 ".357 Sig" ?

[Vad]

Looking for some advice on a pistol - I'm purchasing something for daily fire/concealed carry, and right now i'm leaning towards the P-239. I really like the setup, it seems to me like the closest I can get to a P-220 without it being a .45 acp (sadly) or a full size. If not for the size constraints in a carry pistol i'd go for a full size GSR 1911, but given the fact that I don't like to freak people out and therefore would opt for an ankle holster, a personal size P-239 is my best bet. In this model, my options are 9mm parabellum (ugh) .40 SW, or .357 "sig".

My question is this. Why is the description on the .357 so specific in it being a ".357 Sig" and not a .357 magnum. I'm a newbie to ammo, and I don't know what the difference is - If there is any. Can anyone clear this up? Is there a verifiable difference in stopping power, or is this just a signature line for Sigarms?

:noob:

[pennywise]

If you plan to fire it with any regularity, go with the 9. If there will be some learning involved (I know, everyone is a gun expert, but still), go with a 9. All for the same reason: ammo price. 9 is significantly cheaper than 40 or 357 sig and will be a better choice for running alot of rounds through the pistol. A 9 is a fine round for punching through paper or for self defense. Its not the best, Id prefer a 40 of the three choices for self defense, if I were to switch from a revolver to an auto, but a 9 is good with the right ammunition.

Sig is a different round than the magnum. Magnum is bigger, badder, and totally unsuitable for automatic pistols. 357 sig is shorter and made for auto pistols. Im no expert on the ballistic differences and whatnot, so check your ammo manufacture of choice's web site, they will have all the info.

Pennywise

And just to clear this up, should it occur, I stick with a revolver because it will always fire. No safety, no jams, no chance of a not fully engaged magazine. Pull the trigger it fires, everytime.

edited to add:

from the winchester web site

357 magnum 125 gr JHP
velocity at muzzle : 1450
energy at muzzle : 583

357 sig 125 gr JHP
velocity at muzzle : 1350
energy at muzzle : 506

Oh, and the price difference between the rounds you mentioned is significant. 50 plinking rounds of 357 sig are around 20 dollars, 40 sw are around 15 dollars, and 9 can be found for 8 dollars.



[Edited on 2-7-2005 by pennywise]

[Vad]

Thanks Pennywise - I appreciate the input. I've fired quite a few pistols before I decided to buy one. More than any other, i've fired 9mms. (Glock 9mm, Springfield, Karr, and even a Sig) I enjoy them for target shooting and i'm slightly more accurate with them than I am with a .45, but I definitely recognize the difference between the two for sheer stopping power. Since it's HIGHLY unlikely that i'll ever be shooting long distance in a self defense situation, i'm more inclined to go with a more powerful round than the 9mm. I don't expect to be blowing through 50 rd. boxes by the dozen with my new weapon, since I can't afford it on a military salary =) I'll probably fire once every couple of weeks with some buddies, so ammo cost isn't a huge factor. I have a question for you though..

Between a 40 SW and 357 Sig, which is the more powerful round?

Also, could you explain to me the significance of the word magnum? I've fired a .44 Magnum Desert Eagle, but never a .50 Caliber. Obviously there's a difference, but I don't know what it is.

Thanks in advance.

-V

Edit: I have fired a few revolvers, and I loved them. Even with the golden reputation Glock semi-autos seem to have, the first one I ever fired jammed on me on the very first magazine. I was told that this was due to the heavy traffic that the Glock gets as a rental gun, but that sort of thing leaves a lasting impression. After that, I rented a .357 revolver, and loaded alternating rounds - One .357 magnum, one .38, for a total of 3 .38 rounds and two .357 mag rounds.

What a difference. *pop* *KABLOOEY* *pop* *BLAZAAAM*.

Blazaams are sweet. This is what attracted me to the .357 model to begin with, although i'm not disappointed to hear that the sig .357 is a little less powerful, I can see how the magnum round would be rough on a barrel and on the hands after a while.

In the end, I guess my "ohshit" reflex is what makes me opt for a semi-auto.

[Edited on 2-7-2005 by Vad]

[Insodus]

I live right near the Smith and Weason factory and I went and shot their "500". Its nothing like the .45 mag, it kicks your ass.

[Mistomeer]

Yeah, definitely consider size for a carry weapon. I have a Glock 19 and I love ithe 9mm because it's so cheap to shoot, but I want something smaller to carry.

[pennywise]

Well, according to the winchester website, the 357 sig has more muzzle velocity and energy at the muzzle than the 40 SW. But, the 40 is a bigger bullet than the 357 sig. Winchester Personal protection rounds run 125 and 147 for the 357, and 180 for the 40 SW. Im gonna have to hope someone else can step up and give you some stopping power information on the two rounds, cause I sure dont know. Unless someone can find a test from somewhere, I can just give my opinion.

The 357 sig has more energy and velocity. It will shoot flatter and will penetrate better. But, overpenetration is a bad thing. The 40 is a much bigger round, and will most likely (again, just my opinion) create a bigger wound, hence doing more damage. Its got momentum in its favor. So, if I had to choice, and until I can find a website with some solid evidence otherwise, I would go with the 40.

[pennywise]

Ok, to add a little. I googled some and found this:

http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php

To save you a little brain damage, what it basically says is that the 357 sig has an average wound volume of 4.45 cu, while the 40 runs anywhere from 4.00 to 5.78. Higher number is better.

Problems with this particular chart. One, it is 3 years old. Two, it only has 1 357 sig cartridge listed, and 15 or 20 40 SW cartridges listed, so it is not the best test available. Im looking for a newer one. And, gelitan tests dont take into account all info.

My official opinion is go to a good range with both calibers in stock. Shoot both and pick which one you like. Other than that you could ask around on glocktalk or somewhere like that and try to get some better advice. That would also be a good place to get info on the personal protection round that you want to use. I use federal hydroshock for my 357 magnum, but there are other rounds out there.

[pennywise]

357 magnum does pack a bit of a whallup, but not so much as a 45. I do know several people who own them that run .38 +p rounds in them instead of 357 magnum. I have no idea how this works out ballistically (ie if it is between 38 and 357, or what), but they seem to like it.

Oh, and one other thing to watch out for is the time it takes for you to put a second and third shot on target. What I mean is how long it takes for you to reset your aim after the shot. For many people who dont put a crapload of rounds through their gun to get it down to an art (including me), the more powerful the gun, the longer it takes. Just something to keep in mind.

[Vad]

Yeah, my real problem is being in Minot fuckass North Dakota. Being a major military traffic area and hunting nexus you'd think that we'd have some local options, but they're pretty limited. Most of my personal experience came from my home ranges in North Carolina, where I shot everything BUT a P-239, hence my apprehension in purchasing one. On paper, it sounds perfect for me, a functional daily shooter (bi-weekly for me) and an easy to carry personal size armament, but as i've never fired one I was looking for some more in-depth info. Yours helped for sure. I'm leaning towards the .40 now, but i'm going to ask around my squadron and see if anyone has a pair of comparable weapons I can fire and see what I -really- like. Thanks bro.

-V

[pennywise]

Sure thing. Oh, and two more things. Im learning stuff from your question myself.

Like, I have no idea what the real difference is between a "magnum" and a regular round. I figure that it is just a marketing thing. Or, it is the fact that it at the time the cartridge was created, it could handle much higher CUP pressures than the other rounds available. Im sure someone will correct me on this.

The other thing is that I believe if you buy the P229 in 357 Sig, you can refit it with a 40 barrel, and vice versa. Bar-Sto is one manufacturer that sells them at 200 dollars. But, dont take this for God's own truth, I would make sure of this from Sig or the dealer you plan to go through.

[Vad]

Not that I wouldn't consider the P-229 as an option, but again, as a concealed carry weapon, the P-239 is almost a half inch shorter.. just one more consideration, and why I landed on the P-239 to begin with. I'd like to have something that I can carry in an ankle holster in any weather condition that won't offend anyone by profiling itself against my clothes (i.e. jacket holster). I'm not a gun nut, but i've carried a sidearm for enough years that I know that the pros outweigh the cons, and i'd rather not have some of my less firearm-enthusiastic friends judging me based on what I choose to carry to protect myself and my loved ones =) The less conspicuous the better, as long as it is -really- functional, and the 239 fits that bill. (IMO).

-V

[Slider]

First off, best advice if your considering buying a handgun is make sure that it is comfortable to shoot for you. By that, I mean, it fits well in your hand, it feels comfortable to hold, etc. Sounds silly, but all to many times I have seen folks buy a pistol because it "looks cool" or has all those neat bells and whistles on it, but it ends up sitting in a safe somewhere because it's uncomfortable for them to shoot it.

Case in point, I have rather small hands, but for some unknown reason, I bought myself a LAR Grizzly in .45 WinMag. (Imagine an oversized 1911) Great Pistol, real tack driver...that I shot a total of 3 times. Damn thing about broke my wrist the first time I fired it and it never felt comfortable in my hand. I later traded it for a Browning Hi Power. Interestingly enough...both of us walked away thinking he had gotten the better deal. But that Browning felt natural in my hand, pointed right where I wanted it to, and was a dream to fire. So get what is comfortable for YOU.

Second thing is muzzle velocity, really is not what you want to go by when deciding the stopping power of a bullet. What IS important is how much energy the round produces in ft/lbs. For example, the 5.56 round has a muzzle velocity of 2955 fps yet only produces 1,162 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle, this drops to 800 ft/lbs of force after only 100 yards of flight. In comparison, the .308 WIN (roughly 7.82 mm) with a muzzle velocity of 2950 fps produces 2830 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle, and 2,484 at 100 yards. The bullet size difference is negligable, yet the difference in energy that is directly translated to the target is considerable.

The difference between the 9mm and .40 S&W is considerable. The 9mm can produce between 302-356 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle, compared to 360-443 ft/lbs for the .40 S&W. Unfortunatly, I could not find any data on the .357 sig, but from what I understand it is supposed to be comperable to the .357 magnum in both velocity, and muzzle energy. (Note, I said supposed to be...not claiming it is...just what I have heard from various sources.) For a self defense round, the .40 S&W would be my choice.

But most importantly, make DAMN sure you know what the local laws are considering conealed carry, and discharging of a firearm, and under what circumstances you can do so. Your local Police Dep't can give you any information you might need, and I highly recommend asking them. Another good source for information would be the range where you shoot at, or the store where you purchase your firearm. And always, ALWAYS practice good firearm safety!

[Vad]

Thanks Slider - A few things..

I really really wish I could both hold and fire the P-239 before I commit myself to a $700 investment. I've fired a friend's P-220 .45, a P-220 .45 at a range, and a P-220 chambered in 9 mil, and Sig weapons have always felt the best in my hands.. but the P-239 I haven't been able to get ahold of yet.. problematically, on paper, it seems like the best choice for me.

I've also fired a .44 magnum DE with what the local range owner called "decent accuracy" back home at 25 yards (longer than i'd expect to use a pistol in self defense) and while I wouldn't consider myself any kind of an expert marksman, I know that I can at least handle any kind of .45 or .357 Sig can throw at me..

On a pride note.. heheh.. my mother has a 9mm, so I feel as if my manhood would shrink an inch if I bought one =P I like 9s for plinking, and because i'm an amateur still, the difference in the power of the round is noticable in my accuracy, but I still feel like I can handle a larger caliber without suffering too heavy a penalty.

I'm aware of the purchase/concealed carry laws in both states that concern me - I'm stationed in North Dakota which has basically no laws whatsoever - No permit to purchase a handgun, and no restrictions regarding concealed carry - As long as you are 21. In North Carolina (home), certain Brady laws are enacted requiring a Sheriff's dept. permit to purchase a handgun for open carry and range firing only (Concealed carry permits require a one day course at a certified firing range, and CC permits also function as purchase permits allowing the circumvention of the Sheriff's dept. entirely, but a limited Federal background check is still performed prior to taking the course).

As far as muzzle velocity/energy is concerned, i'm totally screwed here. I've fired an M-16 in basic which is chambered in 5.56mm if I remember correctly, and I fired a buddy's AK-47 in 7.62. I have no idea how this relates to pistol ammunition whatsoever, and I would LOVE it if anyone had a link to a chart about ammo conversion, be it between rifle/pistol ammo or just different types of pistol ammunition. I think there's definitely a demand for an "Ammo for Dummies" book here, if anybody cares to write it.

-V

[Bobmuhthol]

If size is an issue, you should consider something by Fabrique Nationale. Probably a Five-Seven or Forty-Nine.

[Vad]

Thanks for the advice Bob - checked out their website (had never seen it before, interesting), but size IS an issue.. and most of their weapons are crazy long. 8.2 inches for the 5-7. The sig P-239 is 6.6 inches long, and the BDA9/A0 has an obese 11 pound trigger pull. It can hold more ammo - But i'm not really concerned about that. If I can't hit what i'm aiming for in 7 rounds, number 8 and above should go into my face.

Edit: Also not big on the lack of a manual decocking lever on most of their models - I consider that option a plus. The MK3 seems more my speed now that i've taken a look at it - Single action w/manual decock & 2.5 - 4.5 lb. trigger pull, but i've never even seen one ( let alone fired one ) at a range, so i'm going to have to go with the tried and true. Thanks again.

-V

[Edited on 2-7-2005 by Vad]

[Slider]

Uhmm...no pistol ammo will deliver anywhere near the muzzle energy of a decent rifle...not one that you could carry concealed at least.

As far as using a weapon for defense, most shootings involve distances of between 3-5 feet, so being able to hit a target at 50 meters with your handgun is not neccesarily what you should be training for. What you should be training for is the ability to draw, fire, and HIT a man sized target center-of-mass consistantly. Do NOT fire head shots. EVER. Trust me on this one. Most local law enforcement, and more importantly, the DA's office, veiw headshots as, at the very least, 1st degree manslaughter, and will prosocute! Head shots look cool at the range when you can show your buddies the target and say "Ain't that sweet"? But in the courtroom, they look like pre-meditated murder. Above all remember the old adage "you fight like you train".

I do have one question for you though...why an ankle holster? I would much rather use an inside the waistband holster, or even a paddle holster than an ankle holster. Both of them are easily hidden by a vest, or a shirt worn untucked, and both offer far better accesability to your firearm when you need it. An ankle holster would be my absolute last choice for a carry option.

[Vad]

I didn't mean to imply that I thought rifle and pistol ammo would be anywhere near equal in muzzle energy, I was just asking for a chart that would break it all down for me in idiot terms, what converts to what.

Agreed on the self defense range being much much less than 50 yards, less than 25, and very up close and personal (As I stated in my earlier post, if you read it).

I never even mentioned headshots, CATM teaches to aim center mass, as I always have, and always do.. that kinda came out of left field..

On your holster note - I wore a waistband holster for two years. (stupid M-9) I like paddle holsters because of the versatility in carry position. I dislike BOTH because i'm not always wearing a vest, a jacket, a raincoat, a tuxedo, or a mumu. Sometimes i'm just wearing a t-shirt, untucked, and you -will- profile a few times a day with an untucked T and a waist holster. Sometimes i'm wearing a tucked in pullover, and it's pretty obvious that you're wearing a weapon then. I wouldn't opt for an ankle holster either if I was still carrying my firearm in an official capacity, but i'm not, and I know from personal experience that not only civilians but law enforcement also *instantly* dislike a person carrying a concealed handgun, permit or not, period, the end, in an official capacity or otherwise, and if you have more experience with this than I do, i'd like to know.

That being said, THESE DAYS I prefer an ankle holster because they are much, much more discreet than any of the above. I was only asking for advice on where I could find a competent guide on ammunition, really.

-V

(Edited because I forgot half of a sentence.)

[Edited on 2-7-2005 by Vad]

[Slider]

Apologies, I did not in any way, shape or form mean to imply that you would use headshots, just more like an FYI type of thing. And also remember that your not the only one who might be reading this either.

As far as law enforcement not liking folks who carry concealed.... yes and no. No law enforcement officer likes to go into a situation where he knows the other guy has a gun. Think about it from their point of view for a sec. Would you know if the person you just realized was carrying a weapon had a permit to do so legally just by looking at him? Or could he just be some skell planning on knocking over the stop-and-rob where you’re getting your morning cup of coffee? Is he going to act on the premise of the second? You betcha...because it's far safer for HIM than to assume the first, and end up involved in a shooting. Second, you might want to take into consideration that he is human, he's going to get scared, excited, pumped up, whatever...and finding out that you DO have a carry permit, and aren't going to be trying to shoot at him, is going to be both a relief, and also might just annoy him a tad cause you just took a year off of his life. Same thing goes for traffic stops. Always tell the officer that you are carrying, hand over your permit to do so when he approaches the car, and inform him that you are carrying a concealed weapon, and that you are licensed to do so. They really hate it when they ask you to step out of the vehicle, for whatever reason, and then you tell them “hey…by the way, I have this gun here…” or worse, they find it on you and you didn’t tell them.

[Vad]

Agreed on all points.

-V

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Vad
Looking for some advice on a pistol - I'm purchasing something for daily fire/concealed carry, and right now i'm leaning towards the P-239. I really like the setup, it seems to me like the closest I can get to a P-220 without it being a .45 acp (sadly) or a full size. If not for the size constraints in a carry pistol i'd go for a full size GSR 1911, but given the fact that I don't like to freak people out and therefore would opt for an ankle holster, a personal size P-239 is my best bet. In this model, my options are 9mm parabellum (ugh) .40 SW, or .357 "sig".

My question is this. Why is the description on the .357 so specific in it being a ".357 Sig" and not a .357 magnum. I'm a newbie to ammo, and I don't know what the difference is - If there is any. Can anyone clear this up? Is there a verifiable difference in stopping power, or is this just a signature line for Sigarms?

:noob:

Excellent choice on a pistole. I have carried the slightly larger P229 in .357sig for 4 years now. Prior to that I had the P229-9mm and finally gave way to the .357.

Considerations.
Ammo is more expensive for the .357 (but you get what you pay for!) I carry +P and it will turn every head at the range.

It has a large bite and may be a bit intimidating for a pistol noob. You don't want to be any less confident/intimadated in self defense.

Your number or rounds will be limited in .357 to 10 factory with 1 in the chamber (Always carry one in the chamber) compared to the 9mm being 15+1. The aftermarket 15 round magazine for this pistol is usually cheaper than the factory 10 where for the .357/40 it is not worth it to buy the 13capacity.

I strongly recommend you do not carry on the ankle. You should get a IWB holster on your strong side. If you wear jackets or overcoats a outside the waistband hip holster is more comfy. Paddle holster is also not the safest, I suggest something that is worn on the belt.

This local holster maker is GREAT and his products are the best I've seen. I've used the the holsters for years and they are still kicking.

http://www.highnoonholsters.com/

One last comment. While you should ALWAYS practice with the round you intend to carry you can purchase other barrels that swap right into the p229 to make it either .40/.357/9mm. Be sure to get hogue rubber grips and be sure to have night sighting.

And if you do find firing the .357 in +p intimidating you can always buy an EFK Fire dragon ported barrel, the results are amazing. I also highly recommend buying the dual action recoil springs.

http://www.efkfiredragon.com/

[Nieninque]

Dont buy a gun.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Nieninque
Dont buy a gun.

Yes good advice, just let all the criminals have the guns. Please don't buy a gun to defend yourself or family.

[StrayRogue]

Nice try Nien. Guns keep people safe remember :weird:

[Hulkein]

Hippy!

[Nieninque]

How about, dont let anyone have a gun?
That seems to be the better option.

[StrayRogue]

Never gonna happen in America. Lets just be glad its equally unlikely to happen over here, eh Nien.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Nice try Nien. Guns keep people safe remember :weird:

Oh yeah...I forgot that :doh:

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Nieninque
How about, dont let anyone have a gun?
That seems to be the better option.

Except then only criminals have guns.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by Nieninque
How about, dont let anyone have a gun?
That seems to be the better option.

Except then only criminals have guns.

If you think you are only capable of protecting yourself with a lethal weapon, I feel sorry for you. Her point was if there was no guns, then the criminals would have a smaller chance of getting them. You know, like in countries where gun crime is really low? Its in those countries where guns are illegal.

[Warriorbird]

I'm not in favor of gun control. Sure, if you're a gun owner you're far more likely to get shot... at the same time, there's certain professions and situations that almost require it. I think most people are aware of that. I've never been a pistol fan (not even for self defense) but I'd favor something smaller then what you're going after (bearing in mind that 3-5 foot distance). Then again, you seem to have done your research.

[Edited on 2-7-2005 by Warriorbird]

[pennywise]

Hey, why dont yall fuck off and start a gun control topic or something.

[Parkbandit]

In countries that ban guns.. there is no hunting or is it strickly regulated?

[peam]

Strictly?

If you're new to the pistol game, I'd suggest buying a small calibre weapon for home protection.

A quality .25 will run you much less in initial cost and ammunition than anything bigger. Just be sure to practice semi-reguarly with whatever you buy. Two shots in the chest and one in the head, from any size calibre, will stop a criminal.

[pennywise]

For the price of a .25 you can get a .22 with 5000 rounds of ammo, and have a higher energy and velocity than the .25. I have a .25 that someone gave me, and I almost never shoot it. Too expensive for what is basically a jumped up plinking pistol. The smallest I would go for any pistol which will be used for personal protection is a 9.

[Vad]

Thanks for the responses, but .22s and .25s are boring to shoot, and since I do like to visit the range every once in a while and don't make enough $ to own two pistols, i'd rather have one I can carry and enjoy shooting.

Also - Didn't say I was a total shooting newb, just an ammo newb =)

-V

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Her point was if there was no guns, then the criminals would have a smaller chance of getting them. You know, like in countries where gun crime is really low? Its in those countries where guns are illegal.
Originally posted by Warriorbird
Then again, you seem to have done your research.As it turns out... http://www.hardylaw.net/FailedExperiment.pdf

Never even seen a pistol, hopefully never will. It kind of scares me that North Dakota lets anyone carry around a gun, but the trend seems to be towards more rigorous testing, which makes me :).

[Warriorbird]

Paradoxically, .22s are pretty damn lethal at plinking.

And yeah, I've seen that document, Latrin. Eye opening.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by StrayRogue

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by Nieninque
How about, dont let anyone have a gun?
That seems to be the better option.

Except then only criminals have guns.

If you think you are only capable of protecting yourself with a lethal weapon, I feel sorry for you. Her point was if there was no guns, then the criminals would have a smaller chance of getting them. You know, like in countries where gun crime is really low? Its in those countries where guns are illegal.

It'd be just as easy for me to get a gun illegally if they were banned as it is now.

Because it works in one country doesn't mean it would work in all, especially America.

[Valthissa]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
In countries that ban guns.. there is no hunting or is it strickly regulated?

I think it must be strictly regualted -

The number one after work recreational activity requested by our foriegn customers when they visit the US:

An evening of target practice.

Most of the companies we deal with are from Japan, England, and Germany.

C/Valth

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Hulkein

It'd be just as easy for me to get a gun illegally if they were banned as it is now.

Because it works in one country doesn't mean it would work in all, especially America.

Oh yeah, I agree. Still doesn't make it a great thing, however.

[Slider]

As an interesting side note to this debate, Switzerland has the lowest crime rate of damn near any country in the world. The only two I ccould find that had lower crime rates where Cyprus and Luxembourg.

0.23 Luxembourg
0.60 Cyprus
0.96 Switzerland
1.81 Australia
1.61 England & Wales
1.76 Canada
21.40 Russia (scary, huh?)

However, Switzerland has no military..they have a militia, in wich every adult between the ages of 18 and 55 is a member. And they are required to keep their rifle in their house. That means that every single household in the entire country has access to at least one fully automatic assault rifle....yet they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world. This would seem to totally debunk the populer myth that owning a weapon is enough to turn a normally peacefull human being into some kind of murdering beast just looking for a chance to pull the trigger on someone.

If you're more willing to get into a gun battle with someone who's stealing your TV set than let them take it, then you deserve whatever reciprocation the action of initiating a gunfight entails.

[Slider]

So...basically what you are saying is if someone tries to steal something from you, that you earned, that you worked for, that you should just let them? At what point does it become acceptable to protect yourself, and your property?

Please bear in mind that as a homeowner who is being burglerized, I am NOT the one breaking the law. The burgler is. Got it? Society, as a whole, has decided that stealing is wrong, thus we have laws that clearly state that doing so is considered a Bad Thing, and we punish it. But from what you say, it's ok if he does it...as long as HE doesn't get hurt doing it. Right?

Second, the laws in my state also clearly say that, so long as said burgler is inside my house, I, as a law abiding citizen, have every right under the law to defend myself and my property from him. Does that mean I charge out guns blazing and kill him? No, but I will certainly have a weapon pointed at him, and will hold him until such time as the police do arrive. Would I be entirely within my rights to shoot him? Yes I would. But so long as he does not pose a threat to myself, or my family, I will be more than happy to NOT shoot him, in fact, I would greatly prefer NOT too. Truth be told, if I had my wish, he would never have put me into that situation to begin with.

To just say, "It's okay if the criminal steals everything you own, rather than you defend yourself" is moronic at best, and condones the actions of the criminal.

Originally posted by Slider
So...basically what you are saying is if someone tries to steal something from you, that you earned, that you worked for, that you should just let them? At what point does it become acceptable to protect yourself, and your property?

Please bear in mind that as a homeowner who is being burglerized, I am NOT the one breaking the law. The burgler is. Got it? Society, as a whole, has decided that stealing is wrong, thus we have laws that clearly state that doing so is considered a Bad Thing, and we punish it. But from what you say, it's ok if he does it...as long as HE doesn't get hurt doing it. Right?

Second, the laws in my state also clearly say that, so long as said burgler is inside my house, I, as a law abiding citizen, have every right under the law to defend myself and my property from him. Does that mean I charge out guns blazing and kill him? No, but I will certainly have a weapon pointed at him, and will hold him until such time as the police do arrive. Would I be entirely within my rights to shoot him? Yes I would. But so long as he does not pose a threat to myself, or my family, I will be more than happy to NOT shoot him, in fact, I would greatly prefer NOT too. Truth be told, if I had my wish, he would never have put me into that situation to begin with.

To just say, "It's okay if the criminal steals everything you own, rather than you defend yourself" is moronic at best, and condones the actions of the criminal.

Wow. That is just fucking nuts my friend, I am not saying it is a good thing for someone to go and steal someone else's TV. But the fact that one would rather get INTO an actual life-threatening situation over inanimate objects is what strikes me as so startling.

Edited to Add: Point in case, assuming this situation actually perpetuates itself, are you going to get the option to choose the kind of criminal will grace you with their presence? I know we all are going to calmly point a gun at them, while they will willingly hold up their arms in the air and sport some good old fashioned coffee-talk while waiting for the authorities...

...But realistically, you have no idea how cunning an intruder is going to be, or even if it will be possible to gauge how you yourself will act in said situation. A *million* things can go wrong IMHO, and putting two guns in the situation is one more.

How often do you actually here of situations where homeowners successfully battle it out with intruders and the victors are always the "good guys?"

[Edited on 2-8-2005 by Stanley Burrell]

Just a quick BTW,

I am not exactly from the greatest of neighborhoods. Usually, when a house is being looted, at least from where I'm from, it's pepetratorS, not perpetrator.

The "bad guys," one of whom I have known personally, used to have an expression called "# deep." The number being how many armed robbers would be entering the house during the incident. I never really heard "Let's go 2 or 3 deep..." It was more like 5, or 7 deep, all carrying Ingram semi-autos.

So, when you're ready to take on an army shooting very many DOT .380 rounds a second shouting, "Amor de rey!" I will personally hire you for home security.

Until then, I just hope you get an understanding criminal.

[Vad]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
Just a quick BTW,

I am not exactly from the greatest of neighborhoods. Usually, when a house is being looted, at least from where I'm from, it's pepetratorS, not perpetrator.

The "bad guys," one of whom I have known personally, used to have an expression called "# deep." The number being how many armed robbers would be entering the house during the incident. I never really heard "Let's go 2 or 3 deep..." It was more like 5, or 7 deep, all carrying Ingram semi-autos.

So, when you're ready to take on an army shooting very many DOT .380 rounds a second shouting, "Amor de rey!" I will personally hire you for home security.

Until then, I just hope you get an understanding criminal.

And in that situation, being robbed by 5 - 7 armed men, i'd hope that the homeowner would have the good sense NOT to run out and start emptying clips. Restraint is an option. Then again, in a different situation, if there were a single individual in your home or possibly two (And yes, this happens too.) A firearm in the hands of a trained and mentally prepared person can make all the difference if you believe in fighting to keep what is yours.

Anyone can be trained, being mentally prepared to deal with two people in your house with hostile intent is different. If you've had to deal with having guns pointed at you on the job or been in a similar situation before, it does make it that much easier. Otherwise, you'll just have to hope that you are capable of making rational decisions under stress.

And on this next point Slider and I differ. I work very, very hard for the shitty salary that the military pays me. Everything I own I have earned, every inch of the way. If some lazy asshole wants to come into my house and take from me the fruits of my labor, then yes, my time and hard work are worth more than that fuckstain's life, and i'd be more than happy to put 4 big red holes in his chest and swear up and down that I was shooting to disable.

-V

[Slider]

So, once again, you are saying that the law-abiding citizen has NO right to defend himself, his property, his family, and the best thing he should do is crawl under the bed and cower while the criminal takes everything he earned?

Number one, I could really give a fuck if he decides to "calmly" hold his hands in the air, so long as he does so. Me having a firearm pointed at him gives me that option. Me cowering under the bed and praying he goes away gives me NO options what-so-ever.

Number two, I know exactly how I will react in such a situation, I have been in such situations myself, both as a homeowner, and as a police officer responding to a crime scene. And as a police officer, I have seen plenty of times where a homeowner has done exactly that, defended himself succesfully against a burgler, attacker, whatever. Criminals are not stupid Stanley, they know that the person on the other end of that gun are scared, twitchy, and all too likely to shoot them. a situation that the criminal certainly doesn't want to have happen to him.

Give you a personal example. Awhile ago, I responded to a call in Navy Housing about a possible burglery in progress, and shots fired. We responded to the call, and when we arrived, we discovered that the plate glass front window of the residence had been broken. We entered the house, and left even faster than we went in. Almost as fast as the burgler did. Inside was a 5'2" tall hysterical female with a shotgun. (later we found it was a .410 loaded with birdshot, but at the time, we where convinced you could have driven a semi down the barrels) She had surprised the burgler and fired at him as he lunged for her. He then jumped through the plate glass window to escape. He was later arrested at the hospital where he was being treated for a GSW to the leg. Had she not had that shotgun, who knows what he would have done to her.

[pennywise]

You know, this started as such a nice topic, an exchange of information with very little in the way of absolute bullshit. Why do people go out of their way to turn something halfway enjoyable into a fight. I mean, seriously. Tell you what, Ill start a topic for gun control, since you cant seem to do it yourself.

Oh, and just to stay on topic. The more I look at the P-239, the more I am impressed by it. Im gonna get out this weekend and run a few rounds through a range one, and see how it feels.

[Slider]

Ok, I'll stop if he will ;)

Back on topic, if you can find one, try the Star Firestar, great little gun. Comes in 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 cal.

You've gotta be shitting me. If the guy has a gun hes gonna bring it into the situation regardless of what you do, and I refuse to be the motherfucker who shows up to a gun fight with a wooden spoon

[Vad]

If you do, Penny - Definitely hit me back and let me know what you think of it.

-V

[Ben]

someones going to break into your house and you're going to yell

>get pistol from holster

and get your ass beaten.

Fuck. Just hire some stupid armed rent-a-cop to take bullets for you. Everything is fine as long as no one important gets killed.

Oh and on-topic, any of Walther Firearms are fanfriggintastic. Mainly a PPK/s or p22. Plink!

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Vad
If you do, Penny - Definitely hit me back and let me know what you think of it.

-V

Something I left out my earlier post.

I tried the 239 before ever settling on the 229 and found that the 239 weighs nearly the same if not more than the 229. The handle was also too slim and short being only 7round capacity that made it awkward in my hand and left my pinky hanging down with no grip. The 229 fit like a glove and gave me more round capacity.

I know I sound like a salesman for the 229 but if you do try the 239 be sure and try the 229.

[pennywise]

well, a little searching on glock talk turned up this link, it might prove helpful to you.

http://glocktalk.com/sitemap/topic/236309-1.html

[Vad]

[quote]Originally posted by Ben
someones going to break into your house and you're going to yell

LOL.

Stanley - I agree on Walthers, they're quality.

PW - I checked out that link. I had already handled a few similar Glocks and I agree that there are Glock models that are easier to carry than the P-239. They are definitely lighter. I still can't get over how much I like Sigs though, I had the most fun shooting them, and I won't buy anything without an exposed hammer.

The Glock 33 is the closest comparable pistol to the P-239, both in .357. The Glock is .36 of an inch shorter lengthwise, 1.03 inches shorter heightwise (Which is a little too short, i'd think..) and does weigh 5.45 oz. less than the P-239.

It probably is a bit easier to carry, but i'm still going to have to stick with something I really -want- to shoot also.

(The Glock 26 is identical but chambered in 9mm..)

I've also heard that the Glock frames use a less durable plastic or aluminum alloy to make them as light as they are. Anyone know if there's any truth to that?

-V

[pennywise]

they are made of a plastic, but Ive never seen one break. Their popularity would decline rather quickly if they were found to be less durable than metal framed pistols. They are also very easy to clean and take care of. I dont own one, but I know several people who do, and they have never had any durability problems. For the short ones, just make sure you get a grip extension so your pinky has somewhere to go, and they shoot just fine.

[Vad]

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by Vad
If you do, Penny - Definitely hit me back and let me know what you think of it.

-V

Something I left out my earlier post.

I tried the 239 before ever settling on the 229 and found that the 239 weighs nearly the same if not more than the 229. The handle was also too slim and short being only 7round capacity that made it awkward in my hand and left my pinky hanging down with no grip. The 229 fit like a glove and gave me more round capacity.

I know I sound like a salesman for the 229 but if you do try the 239 be sure and try the 229.

I think I may drive an hour or two and try to find a range in a nearby town with a better selection. After looking at the specs on the 229, i'm curious about it also, and want to compare the two. The 229 is heavier than the 239, but only by a bit, it's a bit longer, but only half an inch or so, and it isn't much taller while having the option for 12 round mags.

Something to look into..

-V

[Stealth]

Let me chime in a bit late on this:

For all practical purposes in a self defense situation the 40 SW and 357 Sig are going to be very comparable.

As Slider has said, the 40 is a bigger bullet and the 357 is a smaller bullet moving faster. Either one of them is alot more effective than a 9mm.

I personally shoot 40 cal. I have two 40s right now. One is the Firestar mentioned before, and the second is a Glock. I like both of them. The firestar is damned accurate and being all metal is pretty heavy for a small pistol. With that being said it is pretty good for concealment since it's small. The glock is too big for really carrying it concealed.

I also agree on the point that a large majority of all shooting conflicts occur at less than 15 feet. Being able to drill holes with a pistol at 25 meters is nice, but not needed for self defense. I personally go for the ability to hit center mass of a torso at 25m with my Glock.

I am considering buying a Kahr polymer .40 cal when I get home. Very similar to a Glock but it has a thinner profile which means much easier to carry in an inside the pants/waistband holster.

A big component of your weapon is your ammo. Make sure you shoot the same overall type of ammo you plan to carry. I have seen people who shoot the cheapest lightest ammo they can find in practice, then carry around a totally different type of ammo for real use...bad idea. At the same time do some research on what type of ammo you want to use. To me there are three basic types of ammo you should consider, and each has its use. Safety slugs..ie Glazers, hollowpoints..ie hydroshocks or black talon etc...and full jacketed rounds.

Safety slugs are made to do alot of damage to soft targets but not penetrate through walls or other things, even drywall. They are good for delivering alot of knockdown energy to a target. Essentially it's a hollowpoint type round filled with a frangible core, often small pellets like rat shot (small lead shot) and then covered with a thin plastic tip. You shoot it and when it hits a target it disintegrates. This does two things, it delivers all of its kinetic energy (doesn't overpenetrate) and due to that it doesn't pose a danger to other people behind the line of fire. The problem with it is that even a decent leather jacket will stop it sometimes. Yeah it will knock you down and probably bruise you or even break a rib, but it won't kill you if you have armor or even a heavy leather coat on.

Hollow points are the jack of all trades. Moderate penetrating power and good bullet expansion and delivery of energy. The round penetrates the target and as the hollow point fills with fluid and flesh it causes the round to expand and tear apart. This causes extra damage due to the larger diameter of the wound track and extra delivery of energy. Plus you have less overpenetration compared to full jacketed rounds.

Full jacketed rounds are IMO the least applicable for everyday carry and use. The only reason I even keep them other than for target use is in the off chance I am trying to shoot at someone behind something...a car door, a door, a wall. A lot of what we see on TV is a crock. You see people hiding behind a cinderblock wall or regular wall or car door and the bad guy shoots pistols or even in some cases a 7.62 machine gun (M60 or the like) at the wall and it makes a little dust. Sorry that doesn't happen in real life. Even a light round like a 9MM is going to do a good bit of damage to a cinderblock or car door, a higher powered round like a 7.62 (.308 in inches) is going to tear that wall down in a short time.


I tend to carry my first round (in the chamber) as a Glazer, my next 3 rounds are alternated between glazers and hollowpoints (I use hydroshocks), following that I go with straight hydroshocks to the end of the clip.

My second clip is all hydroshocks and my third clip is alternated hydroshocks and full metal jackets.


My best friend back home did alot of research on the 357 Sig, I will see if he still has it and post it.


Stealth

[Sean of the Thread]

I'm not sure where those that were in search of buying a pistol ended up but as of today my pistole is for sale.

P229 SigSauer in .357sig. Night sights, Hogue rubber grips, two 10 round factory magazines that take .40sw or .357 and also have two pieces of carry leather and one spare magazine belt leather all for concealed carry. Blow out bargain price of 550.00 for pistole and mags but if your interested in the leather we can talk about that as well.

If interested U2U me and we can talk, I am familiar with all federal firearm sale and shipping regulation.

Parkbandit my fine republican friend you know want this fine piece of steel. (that and you're minutes away and no fee is required)

Picture without hogue grips.