What now?

[khorpulent]

Just maxed out spells, wondering where I should go from here. Any ideas?

Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Arcane Symbols.....................| 201 101
Magic Item Use.....................| 201 101
Spell Aiming.......................| 302 202
Harness Power......................| 302 202
Elemental Mana Control.............| 201 101
Spirit Mana Control................| 201 101
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 15 3
Sorcerous Lore - Necromancy........| 205 105
Perception.........................| 200 100
Climbing...........................| 148 48
Swimming...........................| 170 70
First Aid..........................| 134 37

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 76

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 63

Spell Lists
Sorcerer...........................| 164

[nindon]

Get 3 ranks of MoC.

I have not studied this issue in a long while, but you might try to figure out if the following spell training would result in more benefits without lowering your sorcerer CS:

MnS: 64
MnE: 77
Sor: 162

Start down the long road of doubling in perception and singling in CM. I recommend putting it in a training rotation, instead of doing it all at once, perhaps with MIU, AS, EMC and SMC.

I would want some demonology.

You have good training. Whatever you choose will be viable.

[khorpulent]

Why 3 ranks of MoC?

[Methais]

Because it's better than 2 ranks of MoC.

[Maerit]

I'd work on maxing out sorcerous lore: demonology.... More SMR defense via 704. More utility for 740. More reliable 712. Then there's the other RP utility, but that's a little less mechanical in nature.

[Methais]

Max out lores and then HP. Or HP and then lores.

[khorpulent]

Oh yeah, I always forget about the SMR benefits of 704. When did they make that change, anyhow?

I'm also wondering the effects of elemental lore on 719. I'm assuming there are better ways I can spend my points at the moment, but is it worthwhile down the line?

[Methais]

Oh yeah, I always forget about the SMR benefits of 704. When did they make that change, anyhow?

I'm also wondering the effects of elemental lore on 719. I'm assuming there are better ways I can spend my points at the moment, but is it worthwhile down the line?

I'd guess for a sorcerer 50/50/50/50 elemental lore would be the most efficient for DC, but it's not anything I'd put any kind of priority on over sorc lore, harness power, etc.

[nindon]

Why 3 ranks of MoC?

Good question. I don't have a good answer. It may be antiquated advice. Looking at the wiki article on MoC, I don't see any compelling reason to make it a training priority. Personally, I have 10 ranks of MoC, and I've never regretted training in it, mainly because I've never given it much thought.

[Maerit]

Oh yeah, I always forget about the SMR benefits of 704. When did they make that change, anyhow?

I'm also wondering the effects of elemental lore on 719. I'm assuming there are better ways I can spend my points at the moment, but is it worthwhile down the line?

After you finish sorc lores, I'd reccomend the next loooong haul is combat maneuvers. MoC used to be a thing to help with FoF DS reduction. I'd only recommend something like that if you're going to be standing in tons of swarms all the time. CMAN training helps all around. Get you some disarm and cunning defense ranks to mitigate being disarmed. It also just adds standard maneuver defense which is handy in general.

[Avaia]

If you use Scroll Infusion, Magic Item Use and Arcane Symbols are the skills you want to increase past 1x. Both Mana Controls are of secondary importance to Infusion, as they help reduce the cost per spell charge.



I'm also wondering the effects of elemental lore on 719. I'm assuming there are better ways I can spend my points at the moment, but is it worthwhile down the line?

Worthwhile is in the eye of the beholder. IIRC, if you are so inclined 12/12/12/12 is a decent breakpoint. Training beyond that is less worthwhile. Virilneus had a chart years ago(still on his website maybe?) showing the diminishing returns kicking in pretty fast.

[khorpulent]

Good question. I don't have a good answer. It may be antiquated advice. Looking at the wiki article on MoC, I don't see any compelling reason to make it a training priority. Personally, I have 10 ranks of MoC, and I've never regretted training in it, mainly because I've never given it much thought.

Yeah, I can't really see any reason to get 3 ranks of MoC on my sorc, but your post did inspire me to get a few ranks on my empath, since I actually use 111 fairly frequently in troll camps and the extra splash damage helps. I could see the logic in getting 10 ranks of MoC eventually for the FoF offset, but I reckon I can put that off for quite a while.

I think I'm probably gonna try to bring demonology up to 1x (or 97 ranks I guess, since I like the extra necro energy boost from 105 necro ranks) and maybe throw in some AS/MIU ranks as I go. Perhaps I'll get a few CM ranks too while I'm at it.

Don't know what it is about sorcs, but I feel pretty meh about the possibilities of post-cap training. With my empath I feel like it's gonna take like 40m exp to be satisfied, but for whatever reason I feel like all the exp in the world won't make a huge difference with my sorc.

[Roiken]

The MOC helps the splash from 713... I use 713 a lot in reim and in bandits to make sure that I get a splash on each of the critters before the rest of the group kills it quickly.


Surely not before CM but I did find that going ahead and doing 303 in HP does help for things like duskruin, a long grind for a very small change... But the little extra mana comes in handy other times too.

[Darcthundar]

[QUOTE=Avaia;2020734 if you are so inclined 12/12/12/12 is a decent breakpoint. Training beyond that is less worthwhile. Virilneus had a chart years ago(still on his website maybe?) showing the diminishing returns kicking in pretty fast.[/QUOTE]

This may have been good advice the 90's but not anymore. When they re-did the lores I would say it is now 50/50/50/50. See the lore chart in wiki

Asking "What Now?" is pretty much a silly question only because you really did not provide enough information. Like your hunting style, society (if any), race or even what armor you use would be somewhat helpful.

At capped is when the fun really begins. At that time, the only thing you should die from is from crits or maneuvers. So, I personally trained to offset the two main weaknesses that I believe sorcerers have. And having this in mind it is the reason why I trained this way and for my advice.

The first thing I would do is buy the best crit weighted armor you can afford. Like some 4x temporary exceptionally crit padded or better. I used mine (it was masterfully if I remember correctly) for years. And when I dumped it, it still sang to the same number of charges as when I bought it.

Second, If you have a fixskill available use it. Go back to 2x spells and zero out your spell aim. My lowly low 500's CS was sufficient enough to kill any critter. Add a few more points from enhancives and you will be fine.

Here is how prioritized my training

1) 1x shield (for when you get disarmed)
2) 1x brawling (for when you get disarmed) and yes shield/runestaff is the way to go. I like the added enhancive slots.
3) 25 trains in MOC. It helps you out when in a room with multiple critters
4) 1x CM Why because we are susceptible do dying from not having them
5) 1x Dodge Why, I really do not remember. Maybe because at the time it helped in certain maneuvers. I liked the way it also added to DS, Evade and SMRv2
6) Then training in what you feel like. Lores for 719, If you use scrolls and such 2x MIU and AS. 2x Sorcerer Lores as you see fit. 2x mana control in both elemental and spiritual. I think I have 12 mana spellups a day. Also, I believe I average about 8 mana returned for 719

I did not get to 3x spells until around 20m exp (if I recall correctly and it may have been later)
I did not start getting spell aim until around 25m exp (once again if I recall correctly and it may have been closer to 30m exp). Sorcerers have so many offensive spells that implode was just not a spell I needed.
I still have not maxxed out HP (although I am close) because I am CoL and mana is never a problem. Besides that there was to many other things I wanted to train in that I thought were cooler.


Some of this information may also be outdated. But it is my 2 cents.

Good luck



.

[Silvean]

After cap: I trained up to 3x spells, 1x combat maneuvers (Disarm Weapon 4, Cunning Defense 5, Feint 2), and 2x perception. This took me to double cap, provided the maximum CS milestone I wanted, and enough defense from combat maneuvers and SMRs to keep me alive. The combat maneuver defense is particularly important for me since I like to hunt Nelemar and creatures use disarm weapon in there. This model prioritizes physical skills to compensate for sorcerer weaknesses in the field.

Alternatively, you could 3x spells and start working on magical skills for maximum benefit to ensorcell, scroll infusion and more. This approach is probably more fun than mine and would give you the chance to jump around from skill to skill in search of different milestones. Maybe you like to use Pain (711) a lot and want to make sure you have 1x necromancy lore first. Then you might jump over to Arcane Symbols and Magic Item Use. As for sorcerer weaknesses in the field, you could mitigate them by wearing a ton of defensive spells.

MoC training and non-sorcerous lores have a variety of benefits, but I haven't picked any up yet. Training up dodge is a brutal slog: a long-term goal. Most importantly, you should pick the training model that sounds like fun to you. After hitting the double cap goals listed above, I made some training choices that have more to do with the RP vision for my character than cost-benefit math.

[Silvean]

I thought every class had 300 ranks to distribute on lores?

Sorcerers can go 2x in elemental, spiritual and sorcerous lore. So that gives you 202 sorcerous lore ranks to spread out between demonology and necromancy. And 202 elemental lore ranks to divide among fire, earth, air and water. But not heart, because Ma-Ti has forever sucked.

[nindon]

The first thing I would do is buy the best crit weighted armor you can afford. Like some 4x temporary exceptionally crit padded or better. I used mine (it was masterfully if I remember correctly) for years. And when I dumped it, it still sang to the same number of charges as when I bought it.

The temporary padding is excellent advice. You should be able to find some that is relatively cheap. I had never really considered it.




I trained up to 3x spells, 1x combat maneuvers (Disarm Weapon 4, Cunning Defense 5, Feint 2), and 2x perception.

What was your thinking on Feint, instead of a 5th rank of Disarm?

[Silvean]

What was your thinking on Feint, instead of a 5th rank of Disarm?

Glad you said something! I don't think I realized I had the points to afford a 5th rank of Disarm until just now. This is likely because I let my CM ranks sit at 90 for a long time before taking them to 101. I'll probably switch over to 5x disarm weapon. That said, feint has occasionally screwed me when I'm already rt locked from charge.

[Roiken]

you can technically stop at 100 and still have the points to get that fifth rank of disarm. Although it bugged me so I'm sitting with one point in my cmans right now cause i wanted 101. As far as the shield advice and most of Darcthunar's post I don't agree with nor think is needed.

[khorpulent]

Second, If you have a fixskill available use it. Go back to 2x spells and zero out your spell aim. My lowly low 500's CS was sufficient enough to kill any critter. Add a few more points from enhancives and you will be fine.

.

You're insane.

You're suggesting that I gimp of my magical abilities, thereby allowing creatures to live longer and attack me more, and then compensate for that by training in a bunch of expensive physical skills.

Or...I could just continue casting 709 at anything that might attempt to hit me with maneuvers and then implode at my leisure. And because I've maxed out my sorc ranks, 709 will take down damn near anything.

[audioserf]

2x spell training for a pure is some GemStone 3 shit to be honest. I haven't seen anyone seriously recommend that in a decade.

[khorpulent]

Yeah, even my warmage, who didn't even have a single spell aiming rank until after cap, stayed above 2x in spells.

The advice about temp padded armor is solid, though. It's amazing how cheap you can get a set of temp MCP armor sometimes. If you're a pure and don't get hit often, it'll last practically forever. On the other hand, I've used up temp padding in a couple weeks on a warrior.

I never did understand people who go for the shield/runestaff combo. Maybe it makes sense if you're like 3x cap and have more points than you know what to do with, or if you have an uber enhancive shield or something. Actually, I guess it makes more sense on a sorc than on other pures, since sorcs don't get any benefit from channeling open-handed on anything but 702. I never did understand why sorcs get screwed when it comes to channeling.

[Maerit]

I never did understand people who go for the shield/runestaff combo. Maybe it makes sense if you're like 3x cap and have more points than you know what to do with, or if you have an uber enhancive shield or something. Actually, I guess it makes more sense on a sorc than on other pures, since sorcs don't get any benefit from channeling open-handed on anything but 702. I never did understand why sorcs get screwed when it comes to channeling.

You get higher DS with a shield & runestaff if you're trained to use the shield because you will basically add the shield DS bonus to your DS. If you have a 7x tower shield, you could potentially bump your DS up by 35. And yes, the ability to add another fusion item to your equipped enhancives is a bonus.

Also, shields don't get disarmed (they can be lost in some ways, but not by the disarm maneuver), so when you are hunting in an area that disarms, using a shield instead of a runestaff can be a big benefit. You lose a lot less DS because of the shield training, while also becoming immune to the most crippling maneuver and still get the option to have an equipped enhancive item in your hand.

Most people would say that channeling isn't a great benefit because it puts a squishy caster into hard RT, and one of the best ways to die as a caster is RT lock. I don't channel on my wizard characters because it normally means I'm in hard RT AND offensive stance, which is often a death sentence... Yeah, channeling makes things die faster, but glass cannon benefits and all that blah blah.

[rolfard]

Shield plus runestaff has a lower MAX ds in defensive than runestaff alone but a greater MIN ds when prone/stunned/etc

[khorpulent]

Most people would say that channeling isn't a great benefit because it puts a squishy caster into hard RT, and one of the best ways to die as a caster is RT lock. I don't channel on my wizard characters because it normally means I'm in hard RT AND offensive stance, which is often a death sentence... Yeah, channeling makes things die faster, but glass cannon benefits and all that blah blah.

I rarely channel on my wizard and sorc, but always channel on my empath and cleric. I suppose the extra +4 in guarded with a runestaff isn't all that much, but the hard RT doesn't bother me. Mostly I just don't want to use two macros because I frequently put my runestaff up and channel in offensive with the empath. That +40 allows me to 1-shot creatures that would normally take 2 or 3. Sure it gets me in trouble sometimes, but I don't really consider empaths to be "squishy casters." With 3x PF/HCP armor/major protection/1125 and the option to regenerate, I'm not really too worried about melee attacks. If I am, I can just put up 140. I guess this isn't terribly relevant on the sorc forum....